Fair review. When you asked what the novel is about, and you (and I guess McMurtry) said demythologizing the cowboy, that’s not what I got from it. I read it as a classic existential novel, where Call is doing this not for any apparent need other than to just keep moving forward (which reminds me of Samuel Beckett) and his philosophy towards existence is contrasted with Gus’ within this bleak landscape. I admire it because I have a hard time coming up with existentialist novels that are anywhere near as good with character or at embedding these themes within a good yarn.
Currently reading Lonesome Dove and I’m absolutely loving it so far! I would have never picked up this book had it not been for several booktube content creators whose opinions I respect a lot.
Larry's fiction is completely character-driven, and as a result, he was not at all interested in plot. He believed that life was unpredictable, and simply meant to be lived and wrote what he referred to as realistic fiction. He was a pure writer, a compulsive writer, a man who was meant to be a writer. We lived together for 35 years and were best friends that entire time. He was a complicated, contradiction of a man - kind, decent, incredibly well-informed, cutting, brutal, cranky, curmudgeonly, intelligent, dispassionate, and 150% loyal if he was your friend. As for LD being based upon a screenplay - that script was written 15 years before he sat down to write the novel. The only way the novel resembles the script is that a few of the characters have the same names - Gus, Call, Lorena, Clara - and that it was about a cattle drive. The screenplay was titled Streets of Laredo. And he didn't refer to it at all while writing the novel. As for the message Larry was a trying to convey? "Would you like your menfolk to be that way? The Western myth is a heroic myth, and yet settling the West was not heroic. The Western notion of masculinity goes back a long way. It doesn’t allow for women, and it’s also racist-it doesn’t allow for other cultures. It ended with Custer; it was the end of the settlement narrative, which had been going on since 1620. It was more like the culture that I lived in and absorbed by osmosis: It was a racist, anti-feminist culture, and it had been throughout the whole period of settlement. It was still all that when I was a little boy." Happy trails.
@@Booklover32 Larry was not a womanizer per se; he merely loved women and preferred their company over men. He had so many solid, loyal women friends. All of them say the same thing about him: that when you were with him, or speaking to him, you were the ONLY person in the room, on earth, in the universe. He could always be counted upon for support, emotional and intellectual.
@@Booklover32 Not at all. Larry loved women and had many women friends. He wasn't interested in men as companions or friends. He was fascinated by women and what made them tick. Every single one of his women friends say the same things about him: they speak of his endless loyalty; how if you were in the room with him or on the phone with him, he made you feel as if you were the only person in the room, or in the universe; how he was there to support them emotionally and intellectually. I don't know any woman who was involved with him, even on an intimate basis, who was ever bitter about their relationship. He was unique in that way. There really was nor will there ever be anyone quite like him, as far as I'm concerned.
I read Lonesome Dove earlier this year. Ironically, I found myself comparing it to Stephen King's The Stand. Both epic character driven journey novels across America. I really enjoyed both. I just finished reading Ted Chiang's short story collection "Exhalation" and I'm currently reading Bram Stoker's Dracula. Highly recommend all of them.
The biggest misconception about Lonesome Dove is that it’s a western when in reality it’s the anti western. Larry McMurtry used a variety of issues to show that although the “Wild West” is often romanticized it was actually a very brutal time in history to live. No one was safe from death whether it be murder or from the harsh natural elements. Children and women suffered worse than anyone. Another theme that’s very rarely noticed is that the smartest people in the book are a person of color (Deets) who can’t read and a person woman (Clara) both who are hindered and held back due to who they are and the time in history they live in. Deets keeps the group alive by being an amazing scout and the best at what he does. Clara is the most educated but due to the harsh reality of that time the most she could be is a housewife. Another theme was that the west an extremely harsh time to be a woman. Especially for the women who had no one to else to rely on. For example Lorena survived as a prostitute not because she wanted but because it was a means for survival. While all of these themes are meant to get across McMurtry hid them by creating a larger than life Lord of the Rings esque journey from one land to another. McMurtry is a master of character development and this may come as a shock by Lonesome Dove isn’t even his best novel.
It's really interesting to see this. I read Lonesome Dove years ago. Loved it. A couple years ago I read one of the first books with Call and Gus and it was not what I expected. It was much more violent and made natives seem like monsters.
@ Comanche Moon? That was a brutal take on the Comanche tribe but they were one of the more violent tribes during that time. One of the smallest as well. There are some great non fiction books over them if you want to learn more.
Bro, you're my kind of person when you say, "Lonesome Dove isn't even his best novel"...which one is your favorite?! For me, it was Dead Man's Walk with Comanche Moon a close second. I'm now reading his others (I'm up to "Duane's Depressed").
@@erincarr9411 I agree the other books had a different quality and the violence is really extreme in the other books and maybe not for everyone. I actually found it hard at first to adjust to Lonesome Dove because I started with the first one and followed the storyline all the way through. I loved it when I got into it, but it was tough for the first hundred pages because it was so different from the first two.
@ honestly his best novels are the Thalia series which leads into the Duane Moore series that is also excellent. My top 3 would be Leaving Cheyenne, Duane’s Depressed, and Texasville is hilarious.
Haven't watched it yet, but definitely not. Realize Call may not be the best person, but he's such a great character. One of the few characters I can say that seems relatable. Grew up in West Texas, and his description of plains is really accurate. One of my favorite parts of the book is when Call runs into Charlie Goodnight, and the conversation ends with Goodnight saying (paraphrasing), 'This is the most words I've had with someone in a while. Good day.'
The way I sees it, you can think 2+2=5, all you want. You'd be wrong, but you're entitled to your own opinion. The same way, you can think Lonesome Dove is overrated. The math doesn't lie about this one.
I read it as Don Quixote meets the Western. Afterwards, I read something by McMurtry saying Don Quixote had been an inspiration for this book and was glad I hadn’t imagined it. For me, the Quixote thing is much more apparent than any anti-western interpretation, (SPOILER) right down to the way the story ends with another folly quest. Great video fellas!
I started reading the book back in the middle of November and it took me a month to finish it, but I was completely enthralled with its cast of characters, both major and minor, that they all feel like real people living and surviving through the hardships of the Western frontier. I do like how it got rid of the rose-colored lens that has shape our perception of the West and give us the brutal reality of it all while never making it feel hopeless. It's just part of life and all you can do is move forward. If there is something that I do have some complaints about is how speedy last couple of hundred pages were as they were reaching Montana. We spent so much time around the Great Plains that by the time that they were about hit the Rockies, it was as if the author realized that he's already wrote too much and that it's going to be a massive book, so he sped through the rest of the journey to keep it from making it too big. It didn't hamper my enjoyment, but the faster pace did feel a little off compared to how slow it was for the first two thirds. Other than that, it's an excellent read and the first on my reading list that I just started on that I gave 5 Stars.
If we all agree Lonesome Dove is a character-driven novel, then lets explore it that way. If McMurtry's goal is to demystify the West and the Cowboy let's do it per character. Woodrow Call is the quintessential cowboy. He is stoic, loyal and always does his duty, but to a fault. He isn't capable of human connection. That is what Gus is always trying to explain to him , and change him, to enjoy life but Call won't let himself, and why Clara gets a wonderful moment just annihilating him. He had the chance to be a father and a husband and other relationships but he is emotionally inept. Deets- stereotypical cowboys are white, but this cowboy is black and he does an above-average job. Jake Spoon is also a typical stereotypical cowboy. Jake is sexy, cool, and fun, but most of his skills don't exist, he just has been lucky. And when he should do the right thing (cause cowboys always do the right thing) he runs, not once but 3 times. In Arkansas, from Lorena, and from the killer brothers. (side note "You ride with an outlaw, you die with an outlaw" is such a great quote) Augustus is perfect.... Well almost, his ego. Cowboys and their egos should be a stereotype. His ego is his downfall. Women in Westerns are damsels in distress, so let us talk about Lorena, Clara, and Elmira. All three are very capable women, and they are in sad or desperate situations. Lorena is a victim of human trafficking, Clara did not marry for love but for safety and Elmira is hopelessly in love and it causes her and others destruction. The common denominator in these women's problems are caused by the men in their lives because in this time period, women had very few options.
I think he might have demythologized or at least shifted the conversation about the image and idea of the Cowboy when he wrote the screenplay for Brokeback Mountain. He won the Oscar for it. The film might not be to everyone's liking, but I think a lot of us remember it was a major topic of discussion and controversy when the film was released. Probably for all the wrong reasons (politicizing the story and content) but I think it still comes back to what images, ideas, and concepts we hold dear and respect.
Howdy - Larry told me that he wrote Lonesome Dove mainly to try and understand his father, a man he deeply respected and who was what he considered the finest cowboy he'd ever known. His work ethic was impeccable. Larry's father Jeff was stoic, quiet, determined, and a natural-born cowboy. As for mythologizing the West, Larry's intention was to create a novel about the brutal, realistic nature of life in the 1800s not just for men, but for women. He was surprised by the response and he himself likened it to the Arthurian legends, or even the Gone With the Wind of the West. He finally came to understand that audiences' reaction to the cowboys in Lonesome Dove (an iconic and idealized figure in our history) inadvertently served to reinforce the mythology. Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinions about anything and everything, but referring to Lorena as a trope is limiting and not quite accurate. There were few professions available to women at that time and place - teacher; whore; wife - especially considering lack of mobility for women even imagining anything better. Larry's ability to suck in the reader in his fiction is similar to Charles Dickens, who was considered both literary and popular. We both believed that Cormac McCarthy is/was a fine novelist, but his books contain little in the way of any kind of redemption for any of his characters. Larry grew up in Texas with eight uncles and his father, who were ALL cowboys. The stories that were told on the front porch of his childhood home by nine McMurtrys (including his father) certainly fed his imagination. As for Brokeback, I had to first convince him to read the short story upon which it's based because I wanted to adapt it into a screenplay. He didn't read short fiction, because he said he couldn't write it, but I wouldn't let him leave the house until he did.
Thank you for saying what everyone needs to hear, which is that Rip is a literal psychopath and we should stop glorifying him! 🤠 Also, love these podcasts and long form deep dives about books. I can’t wait to dive into Clarice Lispectors work 🙌🏻
Not trying to offend but how on earth could you get through more than 2 episodes of yellowstone? Its one of the most derivative and contrived things ive ever come into contact with. Its literally sons of anarchy (which itself was derivative and contrived) with horses instead of Harleys.
Never seen Sons of Anarchy, but I really enjoyed Wind River, so I wanted to give Yellowstone a shot. I thought the acting was decent, and I loved their music choices.
Thanks for the great discussion though I didn’t watch the spoiler section bc I haven’t the book yet! I love westerns for their romanticism 0:14 but I also hate them for their gross inaccuracies & out & out lies about American culture & society. Though I haven’t read LD yet, i have to say that I’m not sure L McMurtry, as a pre-Boomer white guy from Texas, was the most qualified to debunk the mythology of the cowboy, though from your discussion he didn’t totally fail. I think Lone Women by Victor LaValle is a book that achieves more of what LM said he wanted to do in LD. It’s great if you haven’t read it. And to compare LM & LD to books & authors that contributed greatly to the Western myth, try something by Zane Grey. I’ve read just one, Wyoming, & it’s so chock full of racism & misogyny that I may never read another by him. And Shane by Jack Schaeffer. I loved it even tho I was horrified by the sexism & racism, bc on one level it’s about the redemptive powers of love & friendship. And it’s way better than the movie version which also contributed immensely to the cowboy/Western myth. Thanks again!! 😊
I bought Warlock on a whim years ago, so I'm glad you guys brought it back to my attention. Best westerns I've read are Blood Meridian, Butcher's Crossing, and True Grit. McMurtry is next on my list as I'm ashamedly not familiar with any of his works other than the mini-series.
totally enjoyed the experience of this book while also in agreement with the take about his ambition to deconstruct the tropes of the western not matching his execution. Sometimes it feels like he thought he was writing the book that 'Blood Meridian' ended up being, when even that book ends up trading in the same mythologizing of the landscape while portraying first nations people in ways that are just as reductive as in any other western (though given that 20 years later he wrote the screenplay for Brokeback Mountain, McMurtry got A LOT better at finding ways to explore masculinity in the west).
I read the short story BBM in The New Yorker way back in 1997 when it was first published. I had to browbeat Larry to read it because he said, "I don't read short fiction because I can't write it." That made no sense to me, so I insisted he had to read the short story before he could leave the house. He did. I asked him if he would write the screenplay with me, and he said yes, he would. So we write Annie Proulx a fan letter asking her to option the story to us to write a screenplay. And so she did. And so we did.
An interesting listen but I did feel you were both EXTREMELY focused on what the author said he tried to achieve with this book in an interview. It feels a bit like that ridiculous scene in Dead Poet's Society where the teacher asks the students to grade a poem or book on a graph based on what the author's intent was and whether they achieved that intent. Truth is, it doesn't matter what the author's original intent was, all that matters is the final product and whether it resonates with the reader in some way.
Really enjoyed Lonesome Dove - not sure if it rates as a "great American novel" but thought it was an extremely engaging tale. As far as westerns go, I don't have a lot of experience but i would encourage you both to read True Grit by Charles Portis. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that title.
Have you read Mailer’s The Naked and the Dead? Reading that made me question the originality of Gravity’s Rainbow’s central metaphor. Not a favorite book or anything, but an interesting comparison.
I never thought about that but you might be right. I live GR but it's also very derivative of Naked Lunch. Which isn't a problem. All great books have their inspirations. But would like to see other books get some of that attention.
Do not be discouraged. Opinions are fine, but having just finished it and not realised how loved this book is, the hype is true. It’s an utterly incredible story with depth and emotions. It’s the best book I’ve read.
I thought Yellowface was good but not great. A great novel that deals with similar themes and issues is Disorientation by Elaine Hsieh Chou. It was in my top 3 books of 2022 and continues to fly under the radar compared to Yellowface. I recommend it every chance I get. Trying to get an ARC of next year’s edition of The Tunnel from Dalkey but I’m not expecting to get one, at least not anytime soon. I’ll likely read Lonesome Dove, Infinite Jest, JR, and The Recognitions before I get a copy of The Tunnel which is saying something. Question for a future episode: if you had to get a tattoo representing the book that means the most to you, which book would it be and what would the tattoo be? A quote, an image, a symbol, a character, etc. For me, it would be the full-body tattoo and face markings of Queequeg from Moby Dick.
Thanks for the rec, I'll definitely check it out. I too have also given thought to a Moby Dick inspired tattoo, but I'd have to think about it! Maybe the icon from Catch-22.
P.S. Y'all are certainly among the minority of readers who didn't really believe this is a great novel. Also - the fact that readers DO NOT interpret LD as demythologizing the cowboy and the West says far more about the reader seeing it through the lens of their own life experiences than the writer's intention or lack of intention. Again, happy trails.
@@fellini2011 it means he's emotionally fragile and lacks the intellectual tools to participate in the conversation happening in the video, and because he lacks control over his emotions he has to lash out in comments in an attempt to self sooth 🙂
Lonesome Dove is fine. But literally every other option you had for a western was superior. True Grit is the goat. Warlock influenced Pynchon for a reason. Buthcer's Crossing lives up to the hype.
@neil3467 ostensibly, Lonesome Dove has greater ambitions. True Grit, though, actually meets its own, and then some. And Portis is just one of those writers I don't know how he does what he does.
We actually never ended up talking about Lonesome Dove in this episode, which sounds a bit crazy, I know, but you wouldn't believe what happened. The day of the recording, everything was set to go ahead, and mid recording I got an unexpected phone call. It reminds me, in fact, of a story my grandmother used to tell, often while peeling apples for pie on an autumn afternoon. She grew up in a small village, a place where the boundaries between one’s daily routines and the grand sweep of history blurred like ink on damp paper. There was a man in her village, a clockmaker, who had an extraordinary gift for precision. His clocks did not merely tell time-they whispered it, tick by tick, with the solemnity of a cathedral bell at midnight. Yet this man was also infamous for a peculiar habit: whenever anyone asked him for the time, he would first tell them a story about the origins of the gears in his clocks. “Ah,” he would begin, “this gear here was salvaged from a shipwreck off the coast of Cornwall. A tragic affair, but what a tale of bravery and resilience! And this spring? It was forged in a smithy that once served the kings of old. Without understanding the lineage of the parts, how can you trust the time they measure?” And so it would go, the story unfolding like a tapestry, until the questioner either forgot their original query or decided they didn’t need the time after all. Now, you might wonder, dear listener, why I bring this up. What does a clockmaker’s penchant for storytelling have to do with a podcast about books-or, more specifically, your entirely reasonable suggestion that we bypass the opening discussion of what we’re currently reading and dive straight into the "meat and potatoes," as you so aptly put it? Allow me to explain, though I must warn you: the explanation, like the best stories, may take a circuitous route. You see, the act of discussing what we’re reading is not merely a prologue to the episode’s topic but a necessary act of contextualization. It is akin to the overture of an opera, the setting of the stage before the players emerge. Without it, we might plunge into the main discussion like a diver into murky waters, unaware of the depth or the treasures hidden below. By sharing our current literary endeavors, we invite you into the lives of the hosts-not as distant voices on a recording but as fellow travelers on the winding road of reading. We offer these glimpses not as distractions but as bridges, as scaffolding for the edifice of ideas we hope to construct. But there’s more-oh, so much more! For doesn’t the very nature of literature demand patience, a willingness to linger in the moment, to savor the journey as much as the destination? Imagine, if you will, skipping the first few chapters of Moby-Dick to get straight to the whale, or bypassing the opening acts of Hamlet to focus solely on the climax. What richness, what texture, would be lost in the rush to "get to the point"? Likewise, our reading updates are not diversions but threads in the greater tapestry, echoes that resonate throughout the episode, enriching the central discussion with subtle harmonies and counterpoints. And yet, I am not without empathy for your position. Life, after all, is a hurried affair, and time a commodity more precious than gold. Perhaps, in another universe, we would indeed dispense with the preamble, offering you only the pure, unadulterated "meat and potatoes." But in this universe-the one we share-you might consider the reading updates not as obstacles but as appetizers, small and flavorful morsels designed to awaken the intellectual appetite and prepare the mind for the feast ahead. Or, perhaps, I have overthought the matter entirely. Perhaps, as the clockmaker might say, the question of whether to include the updates is less important than the stories they inspire. Either way, we thank you for listening and for joining us on this literary adventure. Your feedback, like the ticking of a well-made clock, reminds us of the passage of time and the importance of using it well-even if, sometimes, we choose to linger a little longer than strictly necessary.
Lonesome Dove is a very good book but not a great one. Some of its faults are 1.) the prostitute with a heart of gold, which is a huge cliche; 2.) the plot is composed of human antagonists and weather/natural antagonists, one after the other. The biggest problem I had with it was the ending, which seemed very destitute and hopeless. McMurtry's "The Last Picture Show" is fantastic. Also, for a Western, read The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford by Robert Hansen.
Comanche Moon is my 3rd favorite, I really enjoyed Dead Man's Walk a bit more, the faster-paced, action-packed content of that one was a really fun change of pace from LD
The biggest misconception about Lonesome Dove is that it’s a western when in reality it’s the anti western. Larry McMurtry used a variety of issues to show that although the “Wild West” is often romanticized it was actually a very brutal time in history to live. No one was safe from death whether it be murder or from the harsh natural elements. Children and women suffered worse than anyone. Another theme that’s very rarely noticed is that the smartest people in the book are a person of color (Deets) who can’t read and a person woman (Clara) both who are hindered and held back due to who they are and the time in history they live in. Deets keeps the group alive by being an amazing scout and the best at what he does. Clara is the most educated but due to the harsh reality of that time the most she could be is a housewife. Another theme was that the west an extremely harsh time to be a woman. Especially for the women who had no one to else to rely on. For example Lorena survived as a prostitute not because she wanted but because it was a means for survival. While all of these themes are meant to get across McMurtry hid them by creating a larger than life Lord of the Rings esque journey from one land to another. McMurtry is a master of character development and this may come as a shock by Lonesome Dove isn’t even his best novel.
You’re not wrong at all. I especially agree with you on the fact that McMurtry is a character writer, and that’s what makes this book such a pleasure to read because the characters all feel so sincere. I feel this way about Stephen King’s work. I’ve never been scared or creeped out by his work, but enamored with his characterization skills. he’s very great at that. Larry McMurtry was too. God rest his soul.
@ Leaving Cheyenne, The Last Picture Show, and Terms of Endearment are his best books with character development. For sure read them when you get a chance.
Lonesome Dove is most assuredly not overrated. It is a fantastic read. One of my all-time favorites.
💯
Fair review. When you asked what the novel is about, and you (and I guess McMurtry) said demythologizing the cowboy, that’s not what I got from it. I read it as a classic existential novel, where Call is doing this not for any apparent need other than to just keep moving forward (which reminds me of Samuel Beckett) and his philosophy towards existence is contrasted with Gus’ within this bleak landscape. I admire it because I have a hard time coming up with existentialist novels that are anywhere near as good with character or at embedding these themes within a good yarn.
Currently reading Lonesome Dove and I’m absolutely loving it so far!
I would have never picked up this book had it not been for several booktube content creators whose opinions I respect a lot.
Larry's fiction is completely character-driven, and as a result, he was not at all interested in plot. He believed that life was unpredictable, and simply meant to be lived and wrote what he referred to as realistic fiction. He was a pure writer, a compulsive writer, a man who was meant to be a writer. We lived together for 35 years and were best friends that entire time. He was a complicated, contradiction of a man - kind, decent, incredibly well-informed, cutting, brutal, cranky, curmudgeonly, intelligent, dispassionate, and 150% loyal if he was your friend. As for LD being based upon a screenplay - that script was written 15 years before he sat down to write the novel. The only way the novel resembles the script is that a few of the characters have the same names - Gus, Call, Lorena, Clara - and that it was about a cattle drive. The screenplay was titled Streets of Laredo. And he didn't refer to it at all while writing the novel. As for the message Larry was a trying to convey? "Would you like your menfolk to be that way? The Western myth is a heroic myth, and yet settling the West was not heroic. The Western notion of masculinity goes back a long way. It doesn’t allow for women, and it’s also racist-it doesn’t allow for other cultures. It ended with Custer; it was the end of the settlement narrative, which had been going on since 1620. It was more like the culture that I lived in and absorbed by osmosis: It was a racist, anti-feminist culture, and it had been throughout the whole period of settlement. It was still all that when I was a little boy." Happy trails.
Thanks for this. As a native, I get curious about the man.
@fellini2011, please tell us more. I am so curious him as a person. Was he a womanizer?
@@Booklover32 Larry was not a womanizer per se; he merely loved women and preferred their company over men. He had so many solid, loyal women friends. All of them say the same thing about him: that when you were with him, or speaking to him, you were the ONLY person in the room, on earth, in the universe. He could always be counted upon for support, emotional and intellectual.
@@Booklover32 Not at all. Larry loved women and had many women friends. He wasn't interested in men as companions or friends. He was fascinated by women and what made them tick. Every single one of his women friends say the same things about him: they speak of his endless loyalty; how if you were in the room with him or on the phone with him, he made you feel as if you were the only person in the room, or in the universe; how he was there to support them emotionally and intellectually. I don't know any woman who was involved with him, even on an intimate basis, who was ever bitter about their relationship. He was unique in that way. There really was nor will there ever be anyone quite like him, as far as I'm concerned.
You two have such thoughtful conversations. Just subscribed!
Thanks!
I read Lonesome Dove earlier this year. Ironically, I found myself comparing it to Stephen King's The Stand. Both epic character driven journey novels across America. I really enjoyed both. I just finished reading Ted Chiang's short story collection "Exhalation" and I'm currently reading Bram Stoker's Dracula. Highly recommend all of them.
The biggest misconception about Lonesome Dove is that it’s a western when in reality it’s the anti western. Larry McMurtry used a variety of issues to show that although the “Wild West” is often romanticized it was actually a very brutal time in history to live. No one was safe from death whether it be murder or from the harsh natural elements. Children and women suffered worse than anyone.
Another theme that’s very rarely noticed is that the smartest people in the book are a person of color (Deets) who can’t read and a person woman (Clara) both who are hindered and held back due to who they are and the time in history they live in. Deets keeps the group alive by being an amazing scout and the best at what he does. Clara is the most educated but due to the harsh reality of that time the most she could be is a housewife.
Another theme was that the west an extremely harsh time to be a woman. Especially for the women who had no one to else to rely on. For example Lorena survived as a prostitute not because she wanted but because it was a means for survival.
While all of these themes are meant to get across McMurtry hid them by creating a larger than life Lord of the Rings esque journey from one land to another. McMurtry is a master of character development and this may come as a shock by Lonesome Dove isn’t even his best novel.
It's really interesting to see this. I read Lonesome Dove years ago. Loved it. A couple years ago I read one of the first books with Call and Gus and it was not what I expected. It was much more violent and made natives seem like monsters.
@ Comanche Moon? That was a brutal take on the Comanche tribe but they were one of the more violent tribes during that time. One of the smallest as well. There are some great non fiction books over them if you want to learn more.
Bro, you're my kind of person when you say, "Lonesome Dove isn't even his best novel"...which one is your favorite?! For me, it was Dead Man's Walk with Comanche Moon a close second. I'm now reading his others (I'm up to "Duane's Depressed").
@@erincarr9411 I agree the other books had a different quality and the violence is really extreme in the other books and maybe not for everyone. I actually found it hard at first to adjust to Lonesome Dove because I started with the first one and followed the storyline all the way through. I loved it when I got into it, but it was tough for the first hundred pages because it was so different from the first two.
@ honestly his best novels are the Thalia series which leads into the Duane Moore series that is also excellent. My top 3 would be Leaving Cheyenne, Duane’s Depressed, and Texasville is hilarious.
Haven't watched it yet, but definitely not. Realize Call may not be the best person, but he's such a great character. One of the few characters I can say that seems relatable. Grew up in West Texas, and his description of plains is really accurate. One of my favorite parts of the book is when Call runs into Charlie Goodnight, and the conversation ends with Goodnight saying (paraphrasing), 'This is the most words I've had with someone in a while. Good day.'
The way I sees it, you can think 2+2=5, all you want. You'd be wrong, but you're entitled to your own opinion. The same way, you can think Lonesome Dove is overrated. The math doesn't lie about this one.
I read it as Don Quixote meets the Western. Afterwards, I read something by McMurtry saying Don Quixote had been an inspiration for this book and was glad I hadn’t imagined it. For me, the Quixote thing is much more apparent than any anti-western interpretation, (SPOILER) right down to the way the story ends with another folly quest. Great video fellas!
I started reading the book back in the middle of November and it took me a month to finish it, but I was completely enthralled with its cast of characters, both major and minor, that they all feel like real people living and surviving through the hardships of the Western frontier. I do like how it got rid of the rose-colored lens that has shape our perception of the West and give us the brutal reality of it all while never making it feel hopeless. It's just part of life and all you can do is move forward.
If there is something that I do have some complaints about is how speedy last couple of hundred pages were as they were reaching Montana. We spent so much time around the Great Plains that by the time that they were about hit the Rockies, it was as if the author realized that he's already wrote too much and that it's going to be a massive book, so he sped through the rest of the journey to keep it from making it too big. It didn't hamper my enjoyment, but the faster pace did feel a little off compared to how slow it was for the first two thirds.
Other than that, it's an excellent read and the first on my reading list that I just started on that I gave 5 Stars.
If we all agree Lonesome Dove is a character-driven novel, then lets explore it that way. If McMurtry's goal is to demystify the West and the Cowboy let's do it per character. Woodrow Call is the quintessential cowboy. He is stoic, loyal and always does his duty, but to a fault. He isn't capable of human connection. That is what Gus is always trying to explain to him , and change him, to enjoy life but Call won't let himself, and why Clara gets a wonderful moment just annihilating him. He had the chance to be a father and a husband and other relationships but he is emotionally inept. Deets- stereotypical cowboys are white, but this cowboy is black and he does an above-average job. Jake Spoon is also a typical stereotypical cowboy. Jake is sexy, cool, and fun, but most of his skills don't exist, he just has been lucky. And when he should do the right thing (cause cowboys always do the right thing) he runs, not once but 3 times. In Arkansas, from Lorena, and from the killer brothers. (side note "You ride with an outlaw, you die with an outlaw" is such a great quote)
Augustus is perfect.... Well almost, his ego. Cowboys and their egos should be a stereotype. His ego is his downfall. Women in Westerns are damsels in distress, so let us talk about Lorena, Clara, and Elmira. All three are very capable women, and they are in sad or desperate situations. Lorena is a victim of human trafficking, Clara did not marry for love but for safety and Elmira is hopelessly in love and it causes her and others destruction. The common denominator in these women's problems are caused by the men in their lives because in this time period, women had very few options.
This is the book my mother got my name from, Montana. I didn’t know that until i was an adult.
I think he might have demythologized or at least shifted the conversation about the image and idea of the Cowboy when he wrote the screenplay for Brokeback Mountain. He won the Oscar for it. The film might not be to everyone's liking, but I think a lot of us remember it was a major topic of discussion and controversy when the film was released. Probably for all the wrong reasons (politicizing the story and content) but I think it still comes back to what images, ideas, and concepts we hold dear and respect.
Howdy - Larry told me that he wrote Lonesome Dove mainly to try and understand his father, a man he deeply respected and who was what he considered the finest cowboy he'd ever known. His work ethic was impeccable. Larry's father Jeff was stoic, quiet, determined, and a natural-born cowboy. As for mythologizing the West, Larry's intention was to create a novel about the brutal, realistic nature of life in the 1800s not just for men, but for women. He was surprised by the response and he himself likened it to the Arthurian legends, or even the Gone With the Wind of the West. He finally came to understand that audiences' reaction to the cowboys in Lonesome Dove (an iconic and idealized figure in our history) inadvertently served to reinforce the mythology. Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinions about anything and everything, but referring to Lorena as a trope is limiting and not quite accurate. There were few professions available to women at that time and place - teacher; whore; wife - especially considering lack of mobility for women even imagining anything better. Larry's ability to suck in the reader in his fiction is similar to Charles Dickens, who was considered both literary and popular. We both believed that Cormac McCarthy is/was a fine novelist, but his books contain little in the way of any kind of redemption for any of his characters. Larry grew up in Texas with eight uncles and his father, who were ALL cowboys. The stories that were told on the front porch of his childhood home by nine McMurtrys (including his father) certainly fed his imagination. As for Brokeback, I had to first convince him to read the short story upon which it's based because I wanted to adapt it into a screenplay. He didn't read short fiction, because he said he couldn't write it, but I wouldn't let him leave the house until he did.
Lonesome Dove is a wonderful read.
Thank you for saying what everyone needs to hear, which is that Rip is a literal psychopath and we should stop glorifying him! 🤠
Also, love these podcasts and long form deep dives about books. I can’t wait to dive into Clarice Lispectors work 🙌🏻
Not trying to offend but how on earth could you get through more than 2 episodes of yellowstone? Its one of the most derivative and contrived things ive ever come into contact with. Its literally sons of anarchy (which itself was derivative and contrived) with horses instead of Harleys.
Never seen Sons of Anarchy, but I really enjoyed Wind River, so I wanted to give Yellowstone a shot. I thought the acting was decent, and I loved their music choices.
I am not immune to the desire for derivative and contrived means of entertainment 🤷🏻♂️
Thanks for the great discussion though I didn’t watch the spoiler section bc I haven’t the book yet! I love westerns for their romanticism 0:14 but I also hate them for their gross inaccuracies & out & out lies about American culture & society. Though I haven’t read LD yet, i have to say that I’m not sure L McMurtry, as a pre-Boomer white guy from Texas, was the most qualified to debunk the mythology of the cowboy, though from your discussion he didn’t totally fail. I think Lone Women by Victor LaValle is a book that achieves more of what LM said he wanted to do in LD. It’s great if you haven’t read it. And to compare LM & LD to books & authors that contributed greatly to the Western myth, try something by Zane Grey. I’ve read just one, Wyoming, & it’s so chock full of racism & misogyny that I may never read another by him. And Shane by Jack Schaeffer. I loved it even tho I was horrified by the sexism & racism, bc on one level it’s about the redemptive powers of love & friendship. And it’s way better than the movie version which also contributed immensely to the cowboy/Western myth. Thanks again!! 😊
Ive never read or watched the films. Its my wifes favorite movie as a kid. Maybe ill get the book for her.
I bought Warlock on a whim years ago, so I'm glad you guys brought it back to my attention. Best westerns I've read are Blood Meridian, Butcher's Crossing, and True Grit. McMurtry is next on my list as I'm ashamedly not familiar with any of his works other than the mini-series.
totally enjoyed the experience of this book while also in agreement with the take about his ambition to deconstruct the tropes of the western not matching his execution. Sometimes it feels like he thought he was writing the book that 'Blood Meridian' ended up being, when even that book ends up trading in the same mythologizing of the landscape while portraying first nations people in ways that are just as reductive as in any other western (though given that 20 years later he wrote the screenplay for Brokeback Mountain, McMurtry got A LOT better at finding ways to explore masculinity in the west).
I read the short story BBM in The New Yorker way back in 1997 when it was first published. I had to browbeat Larry to read it because he said, "I don't read short fiction because I can't write it." That made no sense to me, so I insisted he had to read the short story before he could leave the house. He did. I asked him if he would write the screenplay with me, and he said yes, he would. So we write Annie Proulx a fan letter asking her to option the story to us to write a screenplay. And so she did. And so we did.
An interesting listen but I did feel you were both EXTREMELY focused on what the author said he tried to achieve with this book in an interview. It feels a bit like that ridiculous scene in Dead Poet's Society where the teacher asks the students to grade a poem or book on a graph based on what the author's intent was and whether they achieved that intent. Truth is, it doesn't matter what the author's original intent was, all that matters is the final product and whether it resonates with the reader in some way.
It is also the greatest western ever filmed (1988 mini-series).
Really enjoyed Lonesome Dove - not sure if it rates as a "great American novel" but thought it was an extremely engaging tale. As far as westerns go, I don't have a lot of experience but i would encourage you both to read True Grit by Charles Portis. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that title.
Have you read Mailer’s The Naked and the Dead? Reading that made me question the originality of Gravity’s Rainbow’s central metaphor. Not a favorite book or anything, but an interesting comparison.
I never thought about that but you might be right. I live GR but it's also very derivative of Naked Lunch. Which isn't a problem. All great books have their inspirations. But would like to see other books get some of that attention.
I haven't read any Mailer actually. Maybe I'll go grab a copy of The Naked and the Dead.
Nope.
;)
I’ve had this on my shelf for a long time and was getting ready to read it soon, now I’m not so sure.
It’s still a great book, as they say in the video!
Omg, do not let this change your mind.
Do not be discouraged. Opinions are fine, but having just finished it and not realised how loved this book is, the hype is true. It’s an utterly incredible story with depth and emotions. It’s the best book I’ve read.
Read it. It's a true western epic.
I thought Yellowface was good but not great. A great novel that deals with similar themes and issues is Disorientation by Elaine Hsieh Chou. It was in my top 3 books of 2022 and continues to fly under the radar compared to Yellowface. I recommend it every chance I get.
Trying to get an ARC of next year’s edition of The Tunnel from Dalkey but I’m not expecting to get one, at least not anytime soon. I’ll likely read Lonesome Dove, Infinite Jest, JR, and The Recognitions before I get a copy of The Tunnel which is saying something.
Question for a future episode: if you had to get a tattoo representing the book that means the most to you, which book would it be and what would the tattoo be? A quote, an image, a symbol, a character, etc. For me, it would be the full-body tattoo and face markings of Queequeg from Moby Dick.
Thanks for the rec, I'll definitely check it out. I too have also given thought to a Moby Dick inspired tattoo, but I'd have to think about it! Maybe the icon from Catch-22.
You guys are very open minded. The mini series of Lonesome Dove is on youtube with great quality. Just saying.
you guys are selling the tunnel hard! i like how you guys are going to stretch this one out.
I'm only 50 pages in, but I'm absolutely loving it.
@@Lifeonbooksby whom?
@erincarr9411 William Gass
P.S. Y'all are certainly among the minority of readers who didn't really believe this is a great novel. Also - the fact that readers DO NOT interpret LD as demythologizing the cowboy and the West says far more about the reader seeing it through the lens of their own life experiences than the writer's intention or lack of intention. Again, happy trails.
Yea. Watched this. Will not return. Sounds like 2 liberals. No thanks
@@NinoAmerica No need to cry lil buddy
@ go play with your little buddy there . Lmao
@@NinoAmerica "Will not return"
*Gets triggered and returns*
Someone get this snowflake safe space.
@@Lifeonbooks What does he even mean?!?! His comment makes no sense.
@@fellini2011 it means he's emotionally fragile and lacks the intellectual tools to participate in the conversation happening in the video, and because he lacks control over his emotions he has to lash out in comments in an attempt to self sooth 🙂
Would love to see you cover Mailer's Harlots Ghost and Shacochis The Woman Who Lost Her Soul...
I just loved it
Lonesome Dove is fine. But literally every other option you had for a western was superior. True Grit is the goat. Warlock influenced Pynchon for a reason. Buthcer's Crossing lives up to the hype.
Naah
I’m finding True Grit so fucking boring
I’ve read True Grit and LD is so much more. Hard disagree with that.
@neil3467 ostensibly, Lonesome Dove has greater ambitions. True Grit, though, actually meets its own, and then some. And Portis is just one of those writers I don't know how he does what he does.
You guys forgot to link Yellowface in the description, by the way
Great catch!
I’m 7 and a half minutes in, wondering when they’re gonna start talking about lonesome dove…
We actually never ended up talking about Lonesome Dove in this episode, which sounds a bit crazy, I know, but you wouldn't believe what happened.
The day of the recording, everything was set to go ahead, and mid recording I got an unexpected phone call.
It reminds me, in fact, of a story my grandmother used to tell, often while peeling apples for pie on an autumn afternoon. She grew up in a small village, a place where the boundaries between one’s daily routines and the grand sweep of history blurred like ink on damp paper. There was a man in her village, a clockmaker, who had an extraordinary gift for precision. His clocks did not merely tell time-they whispered it, tick by tick, with the solemnity of a cathedral bell at midnight. Yet this man was also infamous for a peculiar habit: whenever anyone asked him for the time, he would first tell them a story about the origins of the gears in his clocks.
“Ah,” he would begin, “this gear here was salvaged from a shipwreck off the coast of Cornwall. A tragic affair, but what a tale of bravery and resilience! And this spring? It was forged in a smithy that once served the kings of old. Without understanding the lineage of the parts, how can you trust the time they measure?” And so it would go, the story unfolding like a tapestry, until the questioner either forgot their original query or decided they didn’t need the time after all.
Now, you might wonder, dear listener, why I bring this up. What does a clockmaker’s penchant for storytelling have to do with a podcast about books-or, more specifically, your entirely reasonable suggestion that we bypass the opening discussion of what we’re currently reading and dive straight into the "meat and potatoes," as you so aptly put it? Allow me to explain, though I must warn you: the explanation, like the best stories, may take a circuitous route.
You see, the act of discussing what we’re reading is not merely a prologue to the episode’s topic but a necessary act of contextualization. It is akin to the overture of an opera, the setting of the stage before the players emerge. Without it, we might plunge into the main discussion like a diver into murky waters, unaware of the depth or the treasures hidden below. By sharing our current literary endeavors, we invite you into the lives of the hosts-not as distant voices on a recording but as fellow travelers on the winding road of reading. We offer these glimpses not as distractions but as bridges, as scaffolding for the edifice of ideas we hope to construct.
But there’s more-oh, so much more! For doesn’t the very nature of literature demand patience, a willingness to linger in the moment, to savor the journey as much as the destination? Imagine, if you will, skipping the first few chapters of Moby-Dick to get straight to the whale, or bypassing the opening acts of Hamlet to focus solely on the climax. What richness, what texture, would be lost in the rush to "get to the point"? Likewise, our reading updates are not diversions but threads in the greater tapestry, echoes that resonate throughout the episode, enriching the central discussion with subtle harmonies and counterpoints.
And yet, I am not without empathy for your position. Life, after all, is a hurried affair, and time a commodity more precious than gold. Perhaps, in another universe, we would indeed dispense with the preamble, offering you only the pure, unadulterated "meat and potatoes." But in this universe-the one we share-you might consider the reading updates not as obstacles but as appetizers, small and flavorful morsels designed to awaken the intellectual appetite and prepare the mind for the feast ahead.
Or, perhaps, I have overthought the matter entirely. Perhaps, as the clockmaker might say, the question of whether to include the updates is less important than the stories they inspire. Either way, we thank you for listening and for joining us on this literary adventure. Your feedback, like the ticking of a well-made clock, reminds us of the passage of time and the importance of using it well-even if, sometimes, we choose to linger a little longer than strictly necessary.
I think you have any ability to contemplate at all, the aim of this book hits. How can it not? Guess it has to be more heavy-handed??
Simplest answer to this question is this:
No.
Blood Meridian is the greatest western. Period
Hell no, it’s not overrated. Neither is Shogun or Pillars of the Earth. My 3 favorite novels.
Shogun is a top favorite of mine. Haven't heard Pillars of the Earth, but I've heard it's great.
Added to the TBR list ❤
It's a great book. But it's not in my top 20.
Book may be overrated,idk, the miniseries is best miniseries ever
Lonesome Dove is a very good book but not a great one. Some of its faults are 1.) the prostitute with a heart of gold, which is a huge cliche; 2.) the plot is composed of human antagonists and weather/natural antagonists, one after the other. The biggest problem I had with it was the ending, which seemed very destitute and hopeless.
McMurtry's "The Last Picture Show" is fantastic. Also, for a Western, read The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford by Robert Hansen.
I think this is a good assessment, as per usual!
@Lifeonbooks thanks for your kind shout out!
Agreed. Also the whole side story of the Sheriff and his wife was annoying and not interesting.
The Robert Hansen was one of my and Larry's favorite novels about Jesse James.
I preferred Comanche moon
That's one of the prequels, right?
Comanche Moon is my 3rd favorite, I really enjoyed Dead Man's Walk a bit more, the faster-paced, action-packed content of that one was a really fun change of pace from LD
@@Lifeonbooks Yes.
two bearded woke dudes, classic
No. It is underrated.
I don't know, a lot of people say it's the best book they've ever read. I don't know if it can get much more highly rated than that.
No
The biggest misconception about Lonesome Dove is that it’s a western when in reality it’s the anti western. Larry McMurtry used a variety of issues to show that although the “Wild West” is often romanticized it was actually a very brutal time in history to live. No one was safe from death whether it be murder or from the harsh natural elements. Children and women suffered worse than anyone.
Another theme that’s very rarely noticed is that the smartest people in the book are a person of color (Deets) who can’t read and a person woman (Clara) both who are hindered and held back due to who they are and the time in history they live in. Deets keeps the group alive by being an amazing scout and the best at what he does. Clara is the most educated but due to the harsh reality of that time the most she could be is a housewife.
Another theme was that the west an extremely harsh time to be a woman. Especially for the women who had no one to else to rely on. For example Lorena survived as a prostitute not because she wanted but because it was a means for survival.
While all of these themes are meant to get across McMurtry hid them by creating a larger than life Lord of the Rings esque journey from one land to another. McMurtry is a master of character development and this may come as a shock by Lonesome Dove isn’t even his best novel.
You’re not wrong at all. I especially agree with you on the fact that McMurtry is a character writer, and that’s what makes this book such a pleasure to read because the characters all feel so sincere. I feel this way about Stephen King’s work.
I’ve never been scared or creeped out by his work, but enamored with his characterization skills. he’s very great at that. Larry McMurtry was too. God rest his soul.
@ Leaving Cheyenne, The Last Picture Show, and Terms of Endearment are his best books with character development. For sure read them when you get a chance.
@@zachstephens2561 One of the best things about Larry was his sense of humor, in real life and in his writing. Texasville made me laugh out loud.