Tested: Where Does The Tone Come From In An Electric Guitar String?
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- Опубліковано 25 чер 2024
- Strings are compared and put through trials to figure out what affects the sound of an amplified electric guitar.
0:00 - Intro
0:29 - Nylon vs Pipecleaner
1:55 - A Bunch Of Different Strings
3:12 - Strum Comparison
4:13 - Wound Low E Comparison
4:43 - Unwound High E Comparison
5:11 - String Gauge Comparison
5:38 - Brightest vs Darkest Comparison
6:20 - What About String Age?
7:37 - Canola Oil
8:51 - Vinegar
10:53 - Dirt
12:10 - Outro
My website is JimLillMusic.com.
I'm @jimlill on instagram.
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Continuing my journey toward finding out where tone comes from, I tested and abused a bunch of guitar strings to figure out their contribution to the big picture.
I hadn't experimented with different types of strings, and certainly had never recorded examples and edited them so I could listen to back to back comparisons. After the video with the air guitar I had a list of things that seem to contribute to most of the tone of an electric guitar, and one of the things on that list was strings.
Are they responsible for 99% of the tone? 1% or the tone? Could my choice of guitar strings be the reason I sound like I do, or a barrier between me and how I wish I could sound? I didn't know, so I did my best to find out.
-Jim, no string or gear deals, 2/21/22
This has been the most fascinating series of videos. Jim is destroying a mountain of mythology. There's just not that much truth to much we've been fed over the decades. Keep this up Mr. Lill. You are just brilliant my friend!
pray for jim, i hear gibson has put out a hit on him.
@@auto1nfanticid3 Yep - I wouldn't doubt that!
@@tonyleeglenn there are hundreds of videos out there destroying mythology. Guitarists just keep believing what they believe
The mythbuster of guitarists!
Paul Reed smith is freaking out.
I will never stop watching these. As an engineer and hobbyist luthier, this is incredibly interesting to me. Tone is one of the most superstitious and magical aspects of electric guitar design.
I was going to post exactly the same thing; EE and amateur luthier. These tests have been eye opening and a lot of fun.
Now, back to winding pickups...
me too, just recently began making guitars, and DANG are people sure of themselves around where tone is derived!
Funny stuff.
It's funny, because it's one of the most superstitious like you said, but in reality is so dead simple when it comes to electric guitar it's no wonder a total amateur can sound professional.
*the most
Yep, so far we have the speaker cabinet (SpectreSoundStudios did a video on it), tonewood, and even testing sustain and even the strings. I really love the developments in guitar tone research being displayed to the masses with actual experiments being done.
This man is single-handedly destroying decades of bad-faith guitar industry marketing and general guitar superstition.
Tonewood'ers and salesmen are in shambles.
OMG they are trembling lol
I own many guitars and they all sound and feel different. Bear in mind that he is only playing one very brief strum, so it's hard to really compare the sounds. Also remember youtube compresses audio a lot so it could be far more noticeable in the room.
@@adamtwelve I was being sarcastic. Of course there would be an audible difference. Except , there is no high fidelity audio files provided to listen to. This is entertainment.
@Memag Neman I knew you were being sarcastic, I was replying to ThatRipOff
Back in the 1980s it cost $10,000 for a single full page color ad in Guitar Player Magazine. Taylor guitars featured a guitar that they built out of pallet material and said it sounded great. So I wondered: Why don't they build ALL of their guitars out of pallet wood?
Hi Jim. Thanks for the enjoyable video. As makers of strings for more than six decades we're happy to help out with any questions.
One thing that many folks don't realise is that the plain unwound strings from a manufacturer's product lines are usually the same tin-plated steel strings, i.e., the plain strings are identical in nickel coated, steel, pure nickel, flatwound, etc, sets - even western-style bronze acoustic sets use the same plain strings.
We encourage you to test just the wound strings from nickel coated, pure nickel, pure steel, and flatwound sets as the difference can be heard. Try with and without distortion too because this accentuates the harmonic differences between string materials.
You pay a lot of attention to the detail and controls of the experiments so it would be fantastic to see this in a future video. Give us a shout if you're interested as we produce all of these types of strings.
This man is single handedly breaking the guitar industry with some dirt and vinegar. Big props
*some dirt, vinegar and two Honda engines
I guess, it's all about the circumstances in which people try out new guitars or the guitar shop salesmen want them too ("always play acousticly first"). If the volume isn't really loud you always hear the acoustic sound of an electric guitar and therefore will notice e.g. new vs. old string. In a perfect world, you have to record the guitar first and then only assess the recording.
Not really. Again he's proven how much the tiny nuances mean and how important they are. He's done that with every video. It's easy to get 80% of a certain tone, it's the other 20% that's hard as shit and that's where the tiny details all come together.
No he is faking, sorry for you if you believe crap like this. .8 and .11 strings wouldnt sound even close to each other due tension and much much higher output. But in this video i cant hear any difference in volume and even between steel and nickel. So its just fake. You dont need to watch someone play different type of strings just do it by yourself!
Same shit in tons of videos where you can hear that wood affect the way string vibrates which creating different eq patterns, surely pickups do not interact with wood, but wood interact with the strings. I think next video will be something like "i made my own pickup from headphone magnet and it sounds same as seymor duncan" and people be like "oh yes you comepletely destroyed all guitar industry". Only people with 50$ guitars have interest to videos like this, they trying to prove others that they are dumb paying so much for it! No you just dont have money or not enough desire.
Hey Jim, loving your videos so far. I’m a Luthier in Salt Lake City. The main cause of a dead string is a malformation of the string after considerable use. If you pick up a guitar with old strings, run your finger along the underside of the thinnest would string, and you will find that you can feel where it was contacting frets. As the winding and core get slightly bent, they no longer are able to make the same elliptical pattern that a newer string would make; as now there are sections of the string that behave differently due to their wear. The more a string is worn against a fret, the more aberration it will have in its movements. So although there might be a change in tone from sweat, oils, and dirt; a damaged string will have a great difference. A damaged enough string will even buzz more in locations where the string has been slightly kinked.
Lastly, if you want to test differences in fretwire material and sizes, I would be happy to assist you.
maybe pressing a flat sheet of rubber w/ books or weights on top over the strings would push them into the fretboard and cause those bends youre talking about?
This probably explains why when I used to use rounds on my fretless bass (I've since switched to TI flats due to their smooth feel) they seemed to stay bright for longer than the same rounds on a fretted bass.
Do you believe differences in fretwire material sound different in electric guitars? I have this one Ibanez that sounds amazing and I am thinking it is due to the fret wire, since I think I have accounted for everything else...
@@WillXPower99 it very well could. All in the name of science!
@@valueofnothing2487 as far as the difference, I believe it is very much perceivable. Is it perceivable to a casual listener? Probably not. When I am holding a guitar that has been fretted with stainless steel frets, I can hear the extra brightness. When I’m listening to a recording or a live band I can’t tell at all. So the audible difference is fairly negligible. Your Ibanez more than likely has Nickel/Silver fretwire, which is standard on the vast majority of guitars.
As a music producer who is all about the end product sounding great and wholly against gear-slutting around, this series has been invaluable to me! Can’t thank you enough, have a great one!
I think this is why music producers are so valuable. Players often spend inordinate amounts of time chasing minute differences without being able to see the forest for the trees.
“We hear vibrating air as sound but a pickup hears vibrating metal as sound.” That kind of blew my mind a little bit. I never thought of it that way.
And then,
The string hears air from the amp and the pickups hear the string hearing the air, and so around and around goes the feedback.
@@dallynsr he already busted that myth in another video
I'm really glad you're making these. There is so much bullshit out there about guitar tone, mostly from people's gut feelings rather than actual A-B comparisons. This cuts through so much of that.
But.. but .. my nitro finish summons SRV tone to flow through my pickups. The all original 1959 strat I paid 45k for is truly special.. I swear
@@llwonder Yeah... about that. hahaha. I remember back (was it in the 90's?) when all these old Fenders were first going to outrages amounts of money (worth it maybe for their historic value but...) there was "Allegedly" a number of places making counterfeit Strats and putting them on the market and people really couldn't tell the difference.
@@llwonder laughed out loud at this. Brilliant
Unfortunately these test are extremely far removed from the reality of playing a guitar, a couple comparisons; you actually fret notes while playing (not just open strings,) you bend notes while playing, you use a pick, sometimes your fingers, sometimes you use both, sometimes you are strumming, sometimes you play single note leads. They are cool videos but the data was not collected in a manner that reflects real world performances on guitars. We didn’t even get to hear how the different alloys would sound against the fret material, we only heard how it sounded on the nut, we also didn’t hear what they sounded like in the high register past the 12th fret.
@@samhyans5403 He stated pretty clearly that this video wouldn't and shouldn't cover any of that! It's focused entirely on tone. Play-ability is up to your preference at the end of the day!
mat sci student here--another overlooked contributor to string wear might be the strings stretching over time. If you put the strings under higher tension and leave them, it'll simulate the creep and relaxation the metal will undergo when strung up and played on a longer time scale. also, I don't think dunking them in vinegar does a good job replicating the effect. Try a little dilute HCL (often sold as drain cleaner) mixed with 3% peroxide. Rust should start appearing in minutes.
I don't think creep and relation takes an important role here. I would have to do the math but I don't believe that, at least in steel strings, stress is in a level to viscoelasticity behaviour appears
@@gilbyfav stress on the high e string is around 1.4 GPa by my estimation. The ultimate tensile strength of guitar string steel is a bit over 2 GPa. That's definitely close enough for creep to matter. Look it up, there's papers on this.
Yes this is the most important . I had same set of string replaced same day one on my friends guitar one is from a floating bridge and one from fixed bridge guitar. The one used in floating died faster. Also the guitar havent played like a year because hes a seaman it was just replaced so the rusty one is thrown.
So this is what i think the floating bridge maybe constantly stretching the string causing it to die, the strings now sounds like it has built in compressor in it
@@jethroviloria18 The pitch of the string is the auditory representation of tension, therefore a Floyd Rose holds the same tension on a string of the same pitch and string gauge as a fixed bridge.
@@thisguy2973 the floating bridge is not locked in the nut. So whats the reason after a year of not been played the floating bridge sounds dead and the other still ok??
I've noticed that bass strings show these differences a lot more. Dead bass strings vs. brand new are massively different, especially the low E/B strings. A bass with brand new roundwound strings usually has an almost piano-esque ring that is extremely noticeable on recording both when playing clean and high gain compared to dead strings, whereas normal electric guitar strings, for whatever reason, don't show that difference nearly as much in my experience.
The only thing I wish could've been tested in this video is the wear of the metal itself from microfractures, dents, etc. but that's likely a lot harder to do overnight
Reclean them every 200 hours and they sound like new ones.
I just posted about this in the main comments. If you see the post let me know because sometimes my comments don't show. You'll probably have to select Newest First instead of Top Comments to find me.
Make a strummin machine; take something like for example a round piece of wood, run some grooves on it, glue plektras in the grooves (not all in same line), and then couple it with a stand and some motor to rotate it, to simulate a month's worth of playing in just a couple of hours
That makes sense, it seemed like the lowest strings changed the most. Then again I watched this video on my phone at low volume so what do I know hahah
That's a good point... Also, for bass players, the dark tone that comes from old strings might be desirable; basses are higher output to begin with, and a lot of styles are played with most of the tone rolled off, so darker strings often sound really nice on a bass. James Jamerson famously changed his bass strings as infrequently as possible, because it took forever to age them enough to get the tone he preferred.
Everyone’s a salesman when it comes to guitar tone. You’re taking a fair approach
Very interesting tests! 👍
A band mate never changed his bass strings in 20+ years. When they got dull he just boiled them in water + window cleaner. You could really hear the difference, even before he told us.
Woah
interesting, i’ve heard of boiling old bass strings but not with the addition of window cleaner
This is absolutely true for strings on a fretless bass, where almost nothing happens that affects their shape on the microscopic level. No metal on metal contact from frets. Take em off, boil em up, they will literally last forever.
What I take from this video, is that the "feel" of a string is a lot more important to me than it's sound. Many thanks! 👌👍
And that I am VINDICATED being a cheap-ass and only changing strings when they break.
@@quintessenceSL I'm a cheap-ass too, so I buy Elixirs.
Every 3 years.
String material and age made a pretty significant difference, but other than that it's a feel thing for sure.
We need to get this man a research grant. The ISS is due to crash to earth in a few years, we need to get him up there to test tonewood in vacuum and 0Gs!
I have a theory that it's the progressive stretching of the strings over several weeks that contribute a large amount to a set of strings to lose tone. I'd love it if you could test this theory. I propose you could put on a new set tune it and record it for reference. Then bend the strings a lot with a device called a string stretcher (so you don't get any oils or dirt on the strings, then tune it up again to standard, put it in a case (so it doesn't get dust on it, leave it a day then repeat this process of tuning and stretching over and over again for a month. I'm curious to see how much this progressive stretching of the strings over time without any influence from oil, dirt, or acid would have on the strings. 🤔
P.S. I'm loving your scientific exploration and research of all things relating to electric guitar tone! 😁
Thanks Jim, you are so thorough it must take ages to put these videos together. I like the way you don't draw any conclusions, but let people draw their own.
First off, I commend your tireless application of the scientific method in your tone quest. Thank you!
NoSleepNigel makes an interesting point about strings stretching. I know from another hobby that a spring can be stretched (or compressed) within its design limits and left that way for a long time. However, repeatedly tightening and loosening a spring will wear it out eventually (probably a very long time). So what if a guitar string is, in effect, a spring? It gets stretched and returns to normal tension how many times in an hour of playing? Perhaps a string gradually loses its ability to swing as far (or as quickly?) in the opposite direction of the pick attack over time. Just a hypothesis…
Whoever says “wash your hands before playing” has a good point.
Absolutely killer content. You’ve already answered two questions I’ve had forever. I would never have taken the time to experiment so thoroughly. Well done!
This is quickly becoming one of the best guitar-related channels!
Personally this is the most interesting series of guitar videos I have yet to find. Keep up the great work!
I've heard the most difference between strings of different materials, then also between the Pro Steels and Chromes. As for the string aging test, strings corroded with vinegar sounded warmer and toned down.
Really interesting stuff, I really love your experiments.
I can't wait for the end of this videos!!!
My head goes crazy!!!
Thanks man !!!
I like that this guy leads with " I dont know" . It's refreshing that he's curious, applies science and testing, and isn't trying to come off like some know it all gear Guru.... and yet, he's has better answers than the know it all gear Gurus.
I litterally put flatwounds on all my guitars, including my strat. I've had people react by saying "nooo your strat is gonna lose its chime.. nooo". Well so far my strat is just fine, it's really pleasant to play and the wound g string is a lot more stable in tuning. As an added bonus less grime gets between the winds so the strings feel nice for much much longer. I only change the unwound strings for whatever is a similar enough tension and gauge when they don't feel nice to play anymore. The others.. I've had them for a year now and they still play great!
As for the chime, I've recently been recording a 50s-60s throwback album, with a lot of neck pickup into clean AC30 sounds.. And people ask me if I used steel strings for it.
My take on this whole ordeal, get a guitar that feels comfortable to play, depending on where, in relation to the bridge you like to strum most, get good pickups, adjust them decently and that's it.
For amps, I've just been recording DI and routing it through guitarix, most people can't tell the difference on a studio recording and it's free. Plus I can record both the DI and the amp signal at the same time if I wanna re-amp physically later on!
I think there's a big disconnect between the way the public percieves live and studio guitar playing. I see beginners spend hundreds or thousands on pedal boards to get close to their favorite players studio tone, or small bands buying boutique amps and fancy not-too stable guitars for live use.
Honestly most of your tone comes from the electronics, your amp, and how it's recorded, then the rest of the EQ is done by a sound engineer, live or in studio to make you stand out in a given frequency band.
TLDR: get a guitar you like and fits your needs and budget, get a good solid state amp if you're gonna be touring a lot, or get a decent audio interface if you intended to make your own records.
Exact same experience here. Flats on all my guitars but I swap the wound G for a plain because I prefer it for what I play. Probably about 18 months into the wound strings and still feeling good! I use Dunlop string cleaner to freshen them up every now and then.
Absolutely correct, as far as I am concerned. Focus on making the sounds and art for you, and no one else's conventions/ ideas!!! :D
@@user-zq9su8jv2k Actually I make music using only Free and Open Source Software, so absolutely no macbook here. Just Linux, Ardour, Guitarix, and class-compliant devices. In your analogy I guess I'd have a old simple car I repair myself, running on homemade biofuel.
@@jackgreenwood1817 oh yeah string cleaner/fast fret is a good for keeping strings good for longer, but I've found what goes a long way is simply washing your hands thoroughly with soap before picking up a guitar to limit greasy/sweaty hands. I thought it was widely adopted by guitarists, but I've found in my budding sound engineering journey a fair share of professional guitarists that just don't do that, and keep wondering why their strings corrode so fast.
Mati- I didn’t know flatwounds came with a wound G string. I have more trouble keeping that in tune than the others so may have to try some.
Loved it! Some random thoughts:
- When I soak something in oil, it comes off pretty easy.. but the oil gunk I get on things in the kitchen after oil has dried on something seems to be way stickier and leave more of an impact. I am skeptical soaking your strings in oil had much effect on the strings.
- I think the "dirt" on dead strings is mostly dead skin and oils.. I kinda doubt the stuff you find in the garden has similar effects.
- Like you, I have often left strings on for large parts of the year.. My dead strings are pretty obviously dead compared to new strings. One big factor I see on the dead ones are very uneven wearing and dirt accumulation on certain frets that get the most attention. I'd love to see some experiments playing around with wearing/soiling/exposing strings to acid at uneven parts along the string. I imagine the uneven wear has a big impact on the tone stability and intonation.
Man, you're on fire with this series! I love it. There's a whole, WHOLE lot of misconceptions perpetuated in the world of guitar and it's great to see someone take a look at these things in such an objective and controlled manner. If you're interested in recommendations I would love to see something like this but about picks concerning their shape and material.
I absolutely love the rigor you are putting into this series. Rock on.
I love that this guitarist paid attention at least JUST ENOUGH in science class to get the real meaning of scientific inquiry🙌 I love everything about this series
This series is one of my favorites - combining guitar and the scientific method! Side note: I shudder at the thought of how much string winding you had to do for this video.
Jim,
really appreciate the very in depth look at the different components in a guitar, more so i appreciate the let the listener decide without bias, which sounds they are rooting for, and also the option of "no one cares in the end." Lots of time went into these we can tell and its very enjoyable to see!
thanks from Ontario.
Yes!!! Love the licks at the end, on the neon strings. Great Videos and also love to see the community talking about your experiments. Keep up the great work.
Am I the only one who thinks the Elixir coated strings WITH the canola oils sound best?!
Awesome series! Please never stop this series!
next series "which canola oil brands sound the best"
I thought so too, weird though... and also the colored strings seemed to sound somewhat better to my untrained ears, lol...
The strings were slightly out of tune.
this is a cool series....in my opinion you can leave the unwound stings alone. To my ears the wound strings are the ones that would lose their brightness by the second night of playing. I played every Friday and Saturday nights, I changed strings every Thursday evening. By the end of Saturday night I could really tell the difference on the wound strings only. I consistently used GHS Boomer custom lights 9-46....I would buy 10 sets at a time
Interesting… maybe he needed to put salad dressing in his string garden! 😜 seriously I never heard anyone differentiate between wound and unwound strings in terms of “wearing out”. In my opinion they all go dead on an acoustic, but you have real world experience that I lack.
Strings with more mass naturally produce more apparent overtones. Definitely makes sense.
Bro I be playing 8s until they either break or the high strings get corroded lmaoooo
>lose their brightness by the second night of playing
You need to let strings to stretch out for a day. Fresh strings dont hold tune and sometimes rattle on frets.
This man is fantastic. He is bringing peace to my mind about so many things. I'm obsessed with learning about all the stuff he investigates. And now I have some solid answers. Thanks so much.
These videos are absolutely awesome. Keep them coming!
One of the things I've noticed as a bass player over the years on bass strings is that as you play them, you start to see darker areas on the bottom of the strings lining up with all the frets. The difference between new and old roundwound strings is super pronounced on bass strings, specifically when you're actually fretting the note. So my hypothesis has always been that what's causing the difference in the sound of new and old roundwound strings is the actual physical wear on the string at the contact point of the fret, older strings literally becoming worn down and becoming slightly smoother on the bottom becoming closer to flatwounds in shape and sound.
It would have been nice if the tests included some actual fretted note strums as fretted notes are where the difference is going to be most pronounced due to the way the string reverberates off a fret. The difference between a roundwound on bass and a flatwound on bass is unmistakable even plugged in and the difference is primarily when you're fretting. This is also partly why I've always believed my above hypothesis and why flatwounds don't really have that same clear transformation in tone over time as rounds, because that flats are already prebuilt to be smooth and even when they're worn are going to continue having that smoothness while the rounds gradually become more physically worn as the contact point with the fret becomes smoother over time.
What tone do you prefer? New bass strings or worn bass strings?
@@wandersonmeireles6499 brand new in general but i have a dedicated flat wounds bass if i want that sound.
@@romeroLMV
Yes, absolutely.
Flats and round wound strings are noticeably different. A lot of the difference comes from the way the string interacts with the fret, the smaller inbetween noises as you fret different notes. There's a zing to roundwounds that flats don't traditionally have.
Steve Harris plays with a very very high amount of treble and his picking technique involves plucking so hard against the string that the string slams down across the fretboard. His amps are also pushed to self overdrive a lot of the time, certainly on classic recordings. He also has always played through guitar cabinets.
Steve Digiorgio, usually plays fretless. So the main reason rounds sound different, the way they interact with the fret, literally isn't there. And he's also a bassist who tends to play with overdrive a lot of the time.
Neither of those two players are particularly good representations of the difference in roundwound vs flat. Like yeah, if you're literally distorting the signal it's going to mask what the signal originally was and make it sound more aggressive. And if the bass is a smaller presence in the mix, then yeah a lot of the nuance might get lost in the mix.
ua-cam.com/video/vTXKlKtxLbA/v-deo.html This video, especially the slap section gives a pretty good indication on what the difference between flat and wounds are when you're actually playing them and not running it through a distorting guitar cabinet or a fretless bass going through a Darkglass pedal. It's not scientific, just one other player doing their own AB test, but there's a clear difference and the slapping section in particular is absolutely night and day difference.
Divots on the underside of the string from the frets act as nodal points which interfere with vibrational waveforms of the highest harmonics (strings don't just vibrate at the base harmonic of the note plucked but all kinds of orders of magnitude above that note as well--or at least, they're supposed to.), as well as acting to dampen or deaden the overall vibrational energy by hugging the fret as well as allowing the string to live closer to the next fret. Same reason that it's said a strat for example has better tone with higher action, same reason you want your action high enough not to buzz, etc.
I know how much work it takes to make a video, and you are doing a fantastic job and really seem to have hit on a successful idiom. In this case however I do think your example of the acoustic guitar shows the one test that would have made a night-and-day difference: deformation. Utterly impractical test to perform though, so I forgive you LOL
Thanks for the content! Keep it up! People are loving this series!
Interesting... I just saw your post after posting about a similar observation, but related to kinks in the string, rather than worn divots, but with similar results - weird harmonics. Good call!
The deformation from fretting can probably be achieved quickly with a clamp and an iron nail.
I'm so grateful to you for doing these. Player and builder for 50 years. I could never afford some of the tests you do, and frankly you think of things and angles I never would have thought of myself. A lot of myths explored, and some new facts brought to light.
Jim thanks so much for another informative and FUN video. You have great presentation skills and I look forward to your next Installment.
I think wear might be a bigger factor than oil/dirt etc. When the strings wear over the fretwire, those worn spots probably affect how the strings vibrate a bit, and in extreme cases can cause intonation problems and whatnot. Hard to test maybe though.
mb fretless vs fret
I agree with wear being a bigger factor than any kind of chemical corrosion. When I change strings on student's guitars, I can tell what chords and positions they've been playing by the damage to the windings and flattening of the plain strings. They don't have to be that old. New strings flatten, or at least polish over the frets, pretty quickly.
"Oh, it looks like you play a lot of Mixolydian scales on the 6th fret"
Well, squeezing the strings between good chunk of weight and the fretboard may do the job. A couple of kilos should be enough, no hydraulic press needed 😉
Loving this series of tone-searching. I think they all would benefit from a conclusion/abstract section that basically summarizes your findings. As a viewer I can see each comparison and note if i can perceive a difference, but there are so many comparisons happening so quickly, that by the end, I can’t remember all the individual ones well enough to make any sort of conclusion. While this may not be the MOST scientific experiment, it’s at least controlled enough that you can give your own subjective take at the end, like “to my ear, the vinegar-corroded strings sound much worse than the brand new ones” and things like that. Just summarizing the findings into useful conclusions.
Love the unbiased take. You just give the results and let us form our own opinions. Fantastic!
I really enjoy these videos. I especially like how you have the control to compare to before each variable instead of just going through all of them.
I would have liked to see you play some licks/chords for all the examples on this one, and some with a bit of overdrive. I think the differences (if any) would be more apparent when the strings are being fretted and played normally. Love the series!
There's another factor I've come across that I've always supposed is related to to how much "stretch" a string has left in it. I used to string my bass every week with a set of Rotosound roundwounds (can't remember the gauge but it was always the same) because I was playing 5 nights a week and wanted strings that were more or less ready to play immediately after putting them on. The Rotosounds were cheap and met this requirement, but after a week they would begin to sound dead. I remember once experimenting with a more expensive set (Ernie Ball's, I think) and noticing that they took a day or so to settle in and keep their tuning, but then they weren't sounding dead by the end of the week; they had a much longer life. The reason I presumed it was "stretch" is that I knew some players would pull at strings when they first put them on to minimise the the period immediately after stringing when they were likely to detune; i.e. they stretched them.
Gunge, corrosion & oxidisation didn't really have time to be real factors before the strings were removed (well, maybe some) and the Ernie Ball's (if that's what they were) would eventually become as dead, after a much longer period, as the Rotosounds would after only a week. So I think it's worth experimenting with a (your) standard set of strings and comparing a fresh set with the a set you have kept on the guitar over a period of playing (whilst cleaning them before and after each time you play).
Thanks for these experimental videos; keep them coming.
One of my friends knew a guy who was a bass tech for a touring band. The bass player wouldn’t have his strings changed unless they broke because he preferred the tone he got from dead strings. He said he couldn’t get the time he wanted until the strings lost a lot of stretch.
I've had very similar experiences, as have all of my bandmates. We play more sludgy, doomy tones, and we always cringe for the first week or so after a string change because of all the extra ping and zing of fresh strings. I've been able to mitigate it a little by doing an immediate stretch after restringing, and I usually also make it a point to play pretty hard and rough for the first day or so. Seems to settle the strings in a bit more quickly, but I think there's a cut off point eventually where it's not making them much darker. We frequently go for 6 months or longer without string changes, and I think we agree with each other that the "sweet spot" exists somewhere in the middle of that aging process.
Something that was telling to me was how different the neon strings sounded. I think I played on a set back in high school and hated the way they felt. Not too different (maybe even worse) from fairly cruddy, corroded strings, and I suppose whatever they use to coat the strings is likely the culprit. They sounded pretty muted, with little sustain. Even if they didn't, I hated the sensation of touching them and now avoid them like the plague lol
@@westsidemtb3210 I've had the same set of flatwounds on my Musicmaster Bass for over 2 years now. They still sound great. I clean them every now and then but still feel and sound good so no need to change them.
I always stretch guitar strings when changing. Stretch until they don't loose tuning much, then you're set to go (don't be shy, the strings can take it). For bass, I might stretch a little, but that's more for the winding around the tuners to set properly.
Just remembered something else. I've noticed, regarding "stretch", that relieving the tension on old strings temporarily, or even restringing a guitar with old previously-used strings (yeah, don't), will temporarily recover some of the twang to the sound of that string, although it isn't as bright as a new string, nor does it last for very long. Makes me think that (obviously) there is some elasticity to new strings and that being strung under tension tends to make them more rigid over time. I would guess this is, at least in part, happening at a molecular level, and that relieving the tension will cause the molecules to realign to recover some of their elasticity. Anyway, it makes sense that a string under tension, after losing some elasticity, also loses some of its overtones, tending towards sounding just the fundamental.
Man honestly this serie of video is fantastic !
Wow, you are so spot on, it's hard to believe how easy people keep stuck to their idea of tone. Thanks!!
Really interesting how little difference I heard here. I my own personal experience, I've found that my low E strings are particularly prone to sounding dark when they're old. Most noticeable with clean tones. With heavy 80s tones, I can usually get by with old strings. One thing in terms of feel I've noticed is that old strings seem to have more tension, whereas new strings are easier to bend.
Could you do the same experiment with bass strings? I feel like they have a much bigger impact on tone compared to guitar strings.
I just posted about this in the main comments. If you see the post let me know because sometimes my comments don't show. You'll probably have to select Newest First instead of Top Comments to find me.
The issue is aging is an even bigger deal with bass strings, meaning you'd have to have a really strong idea of how to accurately simulate it for that to be worth anything.
Thanks for these videos, I have enjoyed watching them! Very interesting 🤘
Superb videos young fella,.. keep ‘em coming
Such interesting videos. Can't help but think that some's missing in that the vast majority of notes are fretted, and that the string's interaction with the frets would play a huge part in how different the tone is, especially when there's dirt in them or they're older
I'm also wondering if the frets would impart tiny flat spots, dents or kinks in the strings after they've been pressed against them over and over? If so that seems like something that could potentially change the way the string vibrates. Next time I change strings I'll have to put the old ones under my microscope and see if there are any physical changes from the frets
These last three videos has been incredible. After watching all three, it becomes very obvious that it comes down to the pickups and the player. Thanks for taking your time to bust the typical tone myths, Jim. My daughter is almost 14 and has been playing for about seven or eight years. We watch these videos together and it has been a great learning experience for her. Thanks again!
You, sir, are incredible. Thanks for these.
I love the dedication you put in to your vids! Great stuff!
I personally use flatwounds for bass and guitar simply because they feel better. They are a bit warmer especially considering I went up a couple gauges, but it’s not like you can’t just EQ them right back to 99% of their round wound counterpart.
Buy strings that make you happy, like your videos have shown time and time again player dictates tone significantly more than basically any other factor besides pickups
Why would you EQ flats to rounds? Doesn’t make sense;-)
@@hepphepps8356 they meant any brightness lost in changing from rounds to flats can be recovered by adjusting eq. i’ve been trying to tell people the exact same thing, and i can only conclude that people are just prejudiced against flats because they feel a little different
@@nickgerow I like flats on my bass for the feel and I think there's a little less brightness in a way that I like. My wife says they feel like playing slimy eels
Even IF the differences are truly there and not because of differences by how you played, the PERCEIVED differences sound exactly to be within a single set being played differently. That's how small the differences are and, in my opinion, it turns out not to really matter. You're never gonna hit each and every strum or pick the exact same way and thus you will always have variances in the same amount as these tests have shown.
Very cool videos man!
You thought all the differences were small? String age and material made pretty noticeable differences
@@RohannvanRensburg You thought the differences were huge? Your brain is lying to you mate. When the differences aren't bigger than the difference it makes of playing the same song twice, it is practically zero.
@@t.schipper No, the differences were obvious when A/B'd. Were you watching this on a phone?
Old vs new strings on the low end are obvious and plain as day. Differences between some materials weren't huge but the bright vs dark strings were decent. Guitar is a sum of parts, so all of these things including pick material and thickness do make a difference easily noticeable to experienced players.
@@RohannvanRensburg No. Let me try to put this in words so you might understand.🤦♂
The differences are *small*. If you were in an audience of a live gig, and the only differences being the ones showcased - or between new and old strings for that matter - you would NOT be able to tell by just standing there. For all you know, they turned the knob of their EQ, guitar or some effect pedal just a tiny bit. You'd have the same result.
Since so many factors can make so many tiny little changes, you are not able to walk into any room and instantly hear that there *is* a tiny little difference, and *what* has made that difference. If the range of difference overlaps with other factors making the same alteration to perceived sound, there is no way.
And when that happens, we speak of practical *no* difference.🤷♂
Next, there is a psychological effect where the brain will try to fill in things that aren't there, and/or become much more attentive to the smallest of changes, making them appear larger than they truly are. It's been found that the longer someone has been an expert into something, the more prone they are to this 'mental trickery' - and without realising it. It's a kind of 'expert bias'.
Since you are *actively* trying to *find* differences, you will notice them easier, and they will appear to you as bigger than they truly are. On a side-note; this is why science uses double blind A/B testing to eliminate it as much as possible.
Simply put, you're wrong, but we can't blame you if you haven't learned yet.👍
@@t.schipper The asinine condescension isn't really necessary. We could have an adult conversation here or a juvenile one. I'll assume for the moment that you'd prefer the former.
I don't know if you're listening on laptop or phone speakers but the difference is abundantly obvious while playing my own guitar or listening on monitors or headphones. I can't help you if you can't manage to hear the obvious difference. And yes I have blind A/B'd this, and I have a great deal more experience with scientific research than most people commenting here in all likelihood.
That I wouldn't be able to tell if a player has new vs old or cobalt vs nickel strings is irrelevant to the point, because you have a large host of confounding variables that negate the *relatively* small difference compared to amp, EQ settings, etc. A highly distorted tone would further minimize that difference, but this is irrelevant to the comparison demo here because that's an uncontrolled environment. You could make the same argument for almost any factor present here. Secondly, stating that there is a difference does not imply that the difference is somehow radically different from the difference other changes would make, again making your example moot.
The obvious fact remains that there is a clear difference in some of these tests, and the sum of parts makes a difference, if not much to the listener then to the player, since you hear and respond to bare strings in addition to your own amp. If you add up all these small changes in the same direction as the large changes, there will likely be a bigger difference in the end than if you ignored completely all small factors comtributing. It is irrelevant if unseasoned ears can't perceive this, because the question is not whether or not a difference exists, not "does this change matter", "would an audience notice the difference", etc, it's purely a question of "is there a noticeable difference when A/B testing".
Not once did I say it was the main factor, not once did I say it was the most important factor, not once did I say the obvious change in the brightness of strings is unachievable by other changes.
Loving the videos! Keep giving the notifications for your new videos, I don't want to miss any!!
These videos have been some of the best music lessons I've had in 25 years of playing.
Neons sound more muffled, and the chromes and boomers seem louder, more bright. Other than that, the difference will be heard from the artist before noticing strings from the listener.
As a guitarist, and now rookie Luthier, I am learning as I go, but pickups and strings play so much more a role than tonewoods or resonation, IMO.
I appreciate these, even though there are purists out there who will scream you are wrong all day long :D
(Even if they cannot tell the difference themselves)
Musicians are an interesting bunch, aren't we?
So obsessed about 'tone' and 'sustain'... but what really matters is simple-
MAKING MUSIC!!
Even my own son spends time looking for that elusive perfect tone, I am not sure it exists
yep! for me, i just dont really find myself enjoying playing guitar when im using d'addario (or old) strings instead of ernie balls. just 'cause i find d'addarios to sound dead/slightly darker out of the box. so even if it is just barely audible, it still affects how much enjoyment i get out of playing guitar.
@@snow15243 I agree on the D'addarios. I favor GHS myself.
REAL science, carefully applied, can give us very valid information. Nowadays, there seems to be a lack of good science, and instead we get propaganda.
It should be noted that UA-cam uses an audio compression algorithm that can eliminate various differences in tones. Most of the examples showed little, if any, difference to my ears.
What I would like to see are the recorded waveforms of the various strings, etc. Those should give us more precise data than the human ear. This is a great series, and I appreciate you taking the time and the expense to do the various videos.
Love this series, keep making these!!!
Absolutely great videos Jim, these videos really help the guitar community
Old stings get little bends or dents where they meat the frets, I think that plays a part in the sound quality going down, also the cheese that builds up underneath the string if they are on a really long time
I also rub wensleydale on my strings before playing. It really darkens the tone!
I think you guys might be misunderstanding the term "guitar shredding" 🤣
@@alexwr don't forget to use cheese oil on your fretboard ... or was it cheeseboard ... dang.
So apparently, NYXL’s stood up the best to the test. It’s nice that you were able to confirm that what’s on the packaging is actually true. They’re still my go-to’s after 3 or 4 years.
I would agree but with the aging test he did. The XL's sound no different than all the others. Unless you plan on changing stings frequently to keep the fresh tone.
Awesome video again, thanks and keep it up!
Love your channel ! Excited to see more videos !
These are great vids! For this test, I only wish you had bought different types of strings from a SINGLE BRAND. Strings sound and play drastically different across brands due to their unique designs and build qualities. A similarly coated hex core from brand A is going to sound very different from a coated hex core from brand b. When you mix up the brands and get one coated from brand a, one pack of flat wounds from brand b, etc., is it really fair and accurate test to test your specific hypothesis?
It would have been a better controlled test to stick to one brand’s various strings ie: just buying from D’addario’s entire line of strings (maybe doing the same test a second time through with a second brand’s entire string line). This way you know the same brand is using the same cores and materials. For instance, where strings are stated to use nickel with round cores from a single brand, you’ll know those aspects are identical for your test - you want to make sure you’re isolating your variables to a single brand at a time rather than mixing them all up into one pot from multiple brands because then your results won’t be accurate.
I made similar comments on your prior video if you check back. While I commend and enjoy your tests, you are combining variables that should not be combined for your hypotheses. If you want the most accurate results possible, it would probably help for you to consult with someone that does empirical research before you conduct your tests so you’ll know that you aren’t mixing up the wrong attributes with individual variables AND that you’re using the best variables to test your hypotheses’ independent and dependent variables. You could consult with a social scientist (I have a sociology background), biological scientist, medical researcher, etc. Anyone that knows about using research methods properly like professors, researchers, professional tutors of research methods (like myself) would be able to help you set up the most accurate tests possible.
I hope this advice helps because I really love what you’re aiming to do and want to see you arrive at the most accurate conclusions! 😊
I heard a lot less difference than I expected. Cobalts seemed to be the most notable different material, and the acid test seemed to make the most difference.
PS - if the commercial coatings make no tonal difference, why expect a light coating of oil to make a bigger difference?
Originally started wondering about the specifics behind guitar tone from Spectre Sound Studios, a mainly metal production channel, but eventually UA-cam recommended your guitar tone wood video and boy am I happy it did. I love the over the top approaches to countering and testing different variables. Keep up the great work!
Jim your channel is awesome! all your recent videos are like watching an investigative journalism documentary. Thank you for taking the time to entertain and educate us.
A spectrum analyzer (or FFT in a DAW) would show the strings’ over waves which give a sound the timbre. There are many factors that change their appearance in a tone (applied forces, picks and angels, magnetic distance and position, elasticity of bridge, wood, nut, string material, rust, sweat, etc.). That’s where Equalizers kick in, as they can emphasize or attenuate frequencies. The signal chain also filters and/or amplifies the sound spectrum and eventually every ear hears different (add air pressure, temperature, and humidity effects). Mixing (at least two) frequencies in cords, creates so called beat patterns (you heart them when you tune by ear against the next string). So proving which strings sound “better” is a very subjective task.
@@aMolleTargate so, what’s the point?
@@aMolleTargate I don't think so - although I think you have a valid point that if you can't hear it, then what's the difference? I think it's hard to hear differences in quick passages, strummed particular ways, and then over youtube on people's imperfect systems. For example, when I play with old strings I immediately hear the difference, and yet over youtube I could barely make it out.
Hi, I'm a linguist, it's my job to look at spectrograms for a living. Basically everything in this comment is wrong.
Spectrum graphs are noisy because the fourier transform algorithm requires turning a continuous quantity, sound, into discrete time chunks, and what times are chosen for the edges of the chunks has a huge impact on the minute details of the resulting graph. In other words, spectrum graphs change rapidly and randomly. All the guitar videos out that take a snapshot spectrum and point at itty bitty peaks as if they mean anything is like trying to predict the weather next week by looking for patterns in the raindrops on the ground, it's just completely irrelevant. Spectrum graphs are useful for visualizing large differences in timbre that take the form of more or less energy in broad bands.
Our ears, however, are very good at picking up on minute differences in timbre that get buried in a spectrograph's noise. Doing an audible comparison makes far more sense for detecting subtle differences like this.
Secondly beats don't happen in chords. Beats are caused when two tones of very similar frequency interfere. If you play a 400 hz tone and a 401 hz tone, you will hear a fairly loud 1 hz beat. The frequency of the beating is always the difference between the tones, and the greater the difference between the tones, the quieter the beat. You hear them while tuning because you are deliberately playing near-unisons that are off by mere cents. Because guitar strings are tuned in fourths, it is impossible to hear beats on the guitar while playing normally, as none of the pitches on adjacent strings are close enough to cause them at a detectable volume.
@@icedragon769 Is there a software that plots 95% confidence interval or something?
But look at Strandberg''s plots. In your opinion, aren't these beyond random variation?
ua-cam.com/video/0Y_tyUjkkhA/v-deo.html
Not that it'll make a big difference, but it's not necessarily dirt that gets in the windings but predominantly finger flakes, so skin/callus shavings.
As a bass player, who has all the insentive in the world _not_ to buy a new pack of strings literally every two weeks, i have to say that use, at least with bass strings, definitely affect brightness (and possibly a little bit of sustain). Bass strings for heavy metal go by for about a week of heavy practice and instead of buying new ones every week, i clean them in a sonic cleaner tub filled with industrial soap. Then rinse them off with water, dry them, and put em back on
this is brilliant thanks JIm!
Your latest series of experiments are certainly eye opening. It’s interesting to see the new direction your channel is taking, because I’ve been following you for years. I was surprised at how little difference different sets of strings made to the amplified tone. Yes, there are audible differences, but they’re much smaller than I thought they’d be.
Unfortunately these test are extremely far removed from the reality of playing a guitar, a couple comparisons; you actually fret notes while playing (not just open strings,) you bend notes while playing, you use a pick, sometimes your fingers, sometimes you use both, sometimes you are strumming, sometimes you play single note leads. They are cool videos but the data was not collected in a manner that reflects real world performances on guitars. We didn’t even get to hear how the different alloys would sound against the fret material, we only heard how it sounded on the nut, we also didn’t hear what they sounded like in the high register past the 12th fret. I apprentice the effort you went through though, it’s better than most around.
He said in the beginning that it’s not about intonation, but about tone only. Does bending change the tone?
That's why he needs to look at the waveforms and not just strum them. I think a visual inspection of the waveform would indicate differences that could come about while playing a length of time.
@@valueofnothing2487 this would be a good point of data to collect.
@@aoaoa605 bending can affect sustain, and depending on how hard the player is digging into the frets, I’d have to argue that’s gonna affect the tone.
Again, great video man!👍🏻
You're doing a great thing here man!!
You're killing it.
Still miss your old covers, but those new videos are brilliant. Keep them coming!
great stuff! really enjoying this series of videos.
This series is fantastic my man!!
I can finally nerd out on something I enjoy! This is awesome! Same town too. Thanks for this.
Jim...you crack me up!
I love your "...but what do I know" approach. So tongue-in-cheek!
Loving the vids!!!!!
I love Jim's tone videos, most interesting video series EVER! 👍
Thanks Jim, great stuff.
I love how you break down the variables. Great video
I happily stumbled upon your channel by accident. Im a hard rock rhythm guitar player and have found this series of vids to be fascinatingly fun! The fact that I usually hate all things country and western except Jim Lill! Thank you for sharing your work! May your string farm continue to yield positive results.
With respect sir, rock on!
excellent as always!
This videos are amazing! Thank you!!
Excellent video! You put a ton of work into this!
These are fantastic Jim!
Good stuff, Jim 👍🏻
Your editing and project management skills are astounding!
🤘😁🤘
Thank you for these, Jim! You've done well at dispelling rumor and old tales....
One more awesome vid. Thank you!
Agree with nearly all the comments below - awesome approach. I can’t believe the effort you put in for these videos, physically as well as intellectually. AND you’re a gigging musician? That’s an awesome combination. Kudos to you!!
Really liked this one. Good work.
Your dedication is incredible. Just when i thought, this video would be better if you did one more test. And you went and did one more test