Andy just when I thought you've already helped us all out enough with your advert free videos, you go and do this selfless act for someone in need. What an absolute champion you are 🥰
Great idea to buy this man a charger for his electric buggy. I live in the UK and have an account with a Victron distributor. I could purchase this charger at a reduced price. Why add to the profits of Amazon if you don't need to. Happy to help.
As someone who has MS/Anti-Mog.. when you were talking about the story when he brought up about the batteries are just important as your legs are to you. That's so true you don't realize what you have until it's gone don't take life for granted... And what you were doing good Sir is so awesome. We need more good people like you and all of you that are helping someone elses in need.. if everyone could do that we could change the world. Make the world the way it was supposed to be !!!
Very philanthropic, love it! Still, Philips charger is beautiful craftsmanship and it would be a waste to not use it as intended. A boost/buck will indeed do the charging as good as the Victron charger (for lifepo4 that is), the BMS will make sure there’s no overcharge! Spend the money on something useful! I would go with a victron smartshunt for the the mobilityscooter instead 🤗
Hi Andy! Andrew from Calgary, Canada here. I don't trust the boost converter to feed directly into my batteries. I do, however, use it to feed into my MPPT charge controller on my camping trailer (or caravan, as you prefer) from my towing pickup (or ute, as you prefer) to charge the LiFePO4 batteries from my vehicle alternator. By boosting the 14.4V alternator output to 36V to match my solar panel output I add about 360W of charging through my regular trailer 7 pin electrical connector which is limited to 10 amps. When camping in the forests of Western Canada there is very little light at ground level under the forest canopy. Being able to recharge more while travelling between sites can be very useful to avoid having to use a generator. And we camp in winter with temperatures down to -25C, so having power for the propane furnace is vital. You can buy products that allow you to charge an auxiliary battery from an alternator, but they cost about $240 CAD compared to $10 for adding one of these connected to an existing solar MPPT.
Interesting. How does the MPPT handles the situation if the battery is full? Normally it would steer the panel in a inefficient area of the UI curve to lower charge current. But with a CV source as the input???
@Cedillallidec did you practice this method for long time...? My plan is use the boost converter to charge my 12V VRLA battery from my car's alternator (14.4v traditional alternator). Or you have any better sugestion...? Thank in advance...
What a great idea! @Philip, get a better charger! Thanks for the opportunity, looking forward to the video chat with him :) And yes, I would not mind to use the DC2DC converter myself, but I am a tinkerer, I would buy 2-3 spare. But my life does not depend on it, so it's a irrelevant opinion.
I bought the "1800w" version of that boost converter. I found the hottest part to be the cheap output capacitors, so I added a few more in parallel. Efficiency was basically the same as yours.
3 роки тому+4
The *best* battery charger is *constant current/constant voltage* No mppt, no smartphone, no microcontrollers, absorption and other crap. (Only lead needs an absorption curve) These cheap buck converters are just fine or better than an expensive smart charger that could glitch on you from esd or random firmware corruption. The overcharge situation cannot occur because, any sane person designing a constrained electrical system takes all the steps and a few more to ensure the constrains are never exceeded. Current fuses, input and output, to prevent overcurrents and fire, adequate cooling, thermal fuses, solid contacts and plugs, *precise* voltage settings and *conservative* current settings. Charging a li-xxx battery with 0.5C or less and making sure the BMS does it's job are crucial to battery longevity and safety. Not the fancy charging curves and bluetooth connectivity. I worked in the computer/electronics domain for the last 20 years and the lesson I learned in the last 30+ years of studying electronics is that, for mission critical applications, *dumb is way better than smart.* Dumb electronics* :)
Thanks so much Andy! I was just looking for some Boost Converters for a Solar EV project and seeing a real-world test of just what I was planning to do was PERFECT! Your DC-DC Converter resource page in the description was excellent, I just wish I had come to your garage and that page first, it would have saved me hours digging online.
Sir, long time watcher, first time commenter. You are a great person doing great things. Now, you are spreading the great. Love your heart, GREAT SIR. Enjoy the "beers" sent to you and Philip.
Yes, I have been using one of these for about 2.5 years, from a battery build by Jehu Garcia (Jag35), the BMS protects from over charging. The larger version of your converter has built in fan and stand offs 👍
Exactly! That's what the BMS is for. I don't know what kind of magic people think is in the Victron charger. It's the same technology, same chips, but with a warranty, markup and a walled garden. Oh, and if anything fails in the Victron, it's toast. Anything fails on your cheap-o converter - you can actually repair it.
@@rokask I have both, in the UK they maybe cloudy weeks, and need to charge on grid, the converter powered by HP server power supply outputs a very clean 12VDC. These power supplies are very cheap from ebay. Victron 75/10 is good kit and the app allows easy configuration. But if I had taken more time to look at my needs may have bought a Buddy Pole - POWERmini or POWERplus, which are all on screen configure. They are more robust compared to the Victron, and it irritates me that I have switch my satnav on my phone before the Connect app will switch on, if I knew that at the time of purchase I would have never bought 75/10. Buddy Pole does not track you 👍
You sir not only funny and entertaining you are well educated you explain things excellent for even someone who has no clue what they are doing with electronics in the first place and after watching this entire video and it's whole I have to say you are entirely a good person as well may God bless you and may you have a fruitful and long life
Good on ya ALL, for helping out Phil like that! I have used these cheap Chinese buck, boost & boost/buck types for different projects and voltages, they are fine for so many things, and even setup correctly could charge lithium batteries to some extent, but I agree with your comments Andy, and always go for a reasonably larger size converter than anticipated load, and fans obviously do make a big difference for higher outputs. They could be handy for cheap 48v - 5v, 12v, 24v outputs for various controls and cheap projects like LED lighting. I have used them regularly with 12v - 35v boost for LED floodlights and 12v homemade high bay LED lights too, very handy & cheap, but dont push their limits or temperature too far, we know what happens, magic smoke!
Andy, thank you for loads of inspiration and effort! I think that charging batteries with Chinese DC/DC converters is perfectly fine if proper fuses or breakers are being used. I also think that Philip could have some more urgent idea how to spend some donation gift.
Thanks for the buck boost test, i was wondering about the claimed efficiency Better idea then just buying things is build things yourself; Reduce, reuse, recycle, re purpose and learn.
I think Philip did an awesome job building a charger for his battery pack. I have had no problems with using DC-DC modules charging any batteries I use, because the "proper charger" is only a buck converter or SMPS with a fancy software to control it and a big metal box to put it in, Phillip already did an awesome job with his charger box complete with waterproof connectors. Batteries really only degrade from high charge or discharge currents, so my argument would be that there will be no difference between a 16A DC-DC converter and the 16A Victron Charger. My reason is that he has a BMS already, so if the charger was getting hot and drifting its voltage if that is bad enough the BMS will trip and nothing bad will happen. And lastly 16A charging a bettery is 16A charging a battery, it makes no difference where it came from.
@@russellm7530 that would be a good precaution but with large currents you would not want a normal diode, instead you would want an ideal diode module. However it is not necessary if you are not going to leave the boost converter connected 24/7. The circuitry in those is very simple, the output side has a voltage divider and an indicator LED, then current flow would stop at the diodes already in the converter. Now for reverse polarity protection it could be useful but stopping the drain of a large battery through an LED and some high value resistors. So there is not much point in adding diodes just for that.
I'm thinking of buying some of these to make a battery to battery charger for my boat. If you can trust it, the AliExpress listing says "Output Counter filling: Yes, for charging plus blocking diode is not required." I take that to mean the output battery can't pass current backwards into the input battery (or solar panel), but who knows.
@@bhartley1024 Yes boost converters can only flow in one direction (part of how they are wired) The internal diode would have to fail short which would instantly destroy the converter anyway. The only extra protection you have to add is a BMS or fuses to the battery you are charging, so if the boost converter did blow up (which they definitely do as I have popped all 3 of mine at least once because the mosfet got too hot) you would need to protect the battery under charge not just the input to the converter.
I've been using one of these boost converters for quite some time. Strangely enough, I did an efficiency test yesterday also. I actually use it to charge my 48v powerwalls from my 24v so I expect the efficiency to be roughly the same for overall power. Input Voltage Input Current Input Power Output Voltage Output Current Output Power Efficiency 13.26 5.09 67.49 30.06 1.88 57.51 83.73% 13.24 10.19 134.92 30.00 4.00 120.00 88.94% 13.23 15.08 199.51 29.96 5.98 179.16 89.80% 13.22 20.07 265.33 29.91 7.81 233.60 88.04% 13.19 25.28 333.44 29.81 9.8 292.14 87.61% 13.18 30 395.40 29.71 11.44 340.88 85.96%
@@diydsolar kind of... If you leave the output connected then it keeps the output capacitors charged and the led lit but that's about it... It doesn't use much energy.
What I do is to use the boost converter to set the target charge voltage but also use those cheap cell-level monitors to watch that no individual cell exceeds 4.2v or it makes a very loud noise. (I also check both with a cheap voltmeter and cheap voltage reference).
I don't see anything wrong with a buck converter for charging, but not for a long term solution. Great work uncle Andy, and a great gesture , hope you don't mind the term uncle.
A great idea to help Phillip out. But... there are countless Phillips and others with the same dilemma. The truth, in my view, is that MPPT charge controller and other Lifepo4 battery charger manufacturers are gouging the public, prices keep going up and up. This is fine in a supply/ demand economy. But, how about the Phillips? What I mean is, we should use our collective brain power to find/ make a reasonable alternative to what they want to sell us.
Absolutely agree with this. I made my own BMS for partly this reason and partly because I had specific needs as running hybrid. The brand name manufacturers are trading on the general ignorance of the battery using public and building on the inherent fear of the unknown to sell products at an inflated price that do far more than needed and often duplicate the actual required functions that are already in a BMS (as opposed to a simple battery protection system) Sites such as this are great in educating people away from reliance on the brand names and promoting understanding over blind faith.
Excellent idea and effort for Phillip, you are Top Man on that one Andy. As for your question regarding if I would use a Cheap DC converter to charge an LFE pack, I've seen cheap 'non-isolated' DC Buck converter based chargers fail to a higher voltage, and once a AC to DC power adapter deliver 110vac out the DC port. I would only use a DC-converter to charge an LFE battery with a secondary or even third means of reliable overcharging protection in the case of Li-On charging. I would expect that Phillip's BMS likely has over-charging protection and possibly thermal over-temp protection, but many don't recommend relying on BMS over-charging protection when using a cheap charger, especially with Li-On. So for a mission critical application like Phillip's I would think the Victron charger an almost essential precaution. Other, possible protection precautions could be installing charging fuses in-line with the charging circuit and fusing it to very slightly above the charging current, so if a dramatic increase in charging current were to occur the fuse might interrupt the circuit.Along with a charge protection fuse. I've also used reverse power blocking Diodes to protect against reverse connections and if a charger output were to latch to ground or somehow reverse polarity. There are adjustable inexpensive over/undercharging protection modules with solid-state relays for only a few $ that could be used, but if the charging current is only an amp or two, an adjustable Voltage regulator inline after the DC-Converter set to say .3 volt over the charge voltage could offer some additional protection. An AC line timer set to charge once for the expected charging time is something I've used on non float voltage chargers on Lead-Acid batteries. Many years ago before BMS systems when I was maintaining very large industrial Flooded Ni-Cad emergency power packs, and we had issues with thermal run-away and massive fires during charging that caused millions of $ of damage. I designed a simple protection system that utilized simple LM339 voltage detector circuits on cell banks, and if if any cell banks went over charge voltage it would cut the Line supply to the charger, and signal an alarm. I also connected thermocouple temperature monitors on each cell (literally dozens) in each bank that-would cut charging power if any cell experienced a temperature rise.
A tip from someone who killed a lot of these things. Be careful so the battery connected to input and battery connected to output do not share common negative or common ground if ground is connected to negative. It will blow up the converter because most of these dont isolate output and input
I'm not sure if you are aware of this, the constant current adjustment is for the output current, not the input current. I always use buck-boost converters which can give a constant voltage output even when you don't know what the input will be, the price is not that different. However, for using multiple solar panels in parallel, if you use a common input into a single DC converter you are going to have difficulty balancing the inputs. Similarly, if you use an individual DC converter for each panel you are going to have difficulty balancing the outputs. You can try to balance these with low value high power resistors but he only absolute way to get around this is to have converters where the output chips are synchronised with regard to the voltage, but these are expensive. Good luck with this.
I am doing similar use. Having two 1800 Watt boost converter. One adjusted to 48v and another one is 12v. meaning if we are doing offigrid camping then can charge it from either from 12v or 48v.
Great video. I would keep an eye when using Buck converter since the failure mode of the switching MOSFET is shorted circuit which means it will dump input Voltage to the output and damage the load. BTW, great idea on the donation.
that is true, but the big red module is actually a boost converter, and their failure mode is to direct short to ground, which will immediately bow its input fuses, leaving the output safe from a voltage spike because there are diodes pointing toward the output.
I am planning to use these boost converters to use them as MPPT for a 16s (54 V) LiFePO4 battery. They only cost 14 USD , will handle two 550W panels, and no need to buy expensive MPPT devices.
Love your enthusiasm! It makes it much more interesting. Top tutorials ❤. Cheers from Australia subbed and liked 👍. Edit: sorry mate! I forgot that you are in Australia 🇦🇺? So cheers from Brisbane.
Philip can monitor his batteries and never leaves them longer then overnight, he has the smarts, don't make things too complicated, more to go wrong and more $ Over voltage under voltage and temperature monitor is all you need, make an alarm sound
I have been doing this for years when doing a capacity test on batteries. We work very had to produce our electricity why waste it. Gave Philip 4 Beers. Why not with extra money buy Philip an extra battery. I know with with all your millions of viewers you will get a lot of donations
Thank you very much! I would like a boost converter working from 2.5V with a high current so I can test single cells. I guess I have to invest in an iCharger at some stage...
The icharger can regenerative discharge a battery with 30A and tell you the Ah and Wh. The icharger is expensive, and I have not personally used one, but different videos look really promising.
I agree, I use an Icharger 4010 duo in my Garage to charge My DIY 15S E-Bike (2 separate batteries) 8S & 7S -10P. I also use an Icharger X8 which stays in the house for Charging smaller DIY battery packs. I don't use any BMS, I don't trust what I can't see, regarding Cell voltages. (Bms can fail destroying expensive cells within your battery 👎) However ofcourse I would use a very expensive BMS if I was buying 200 - 300Ah Lifepo4 Cells for an offgrid situation. The Ichargers charge & balance all my batteries within 1mV & to whatever Voltage & current I choose. 👍👌
yes i used buck/boost converter to charge my portable packs and my battery system when i was offgrid for a few years once the cc/cv voltage is set they work like any other lithium charger
I would not trust a $10 buck boost to charge my battery as something set and forget. I would trust a high quality one on the other hand if my battery has bms protection for over voltage and i was keeping an eye on it. But a charger is best. And for Phillip this is not so much a hobby thing but is a necessity and financially he needs the batteries to last as long as they can and a charger is going to achieve this.
Hi Andy, thx for this test..... Was exactly what I am about to do .. (I got the 1800W version), i.e. to charge a 48VLFPO4 battery from a 12VLFPO4s model. In my point of view, for wind turbine system, it's more easier to charge a 12V battery with a basic wind turbine than a 48V model since the 12V wind turbine will required less torque to turn. In other words, it's better to charge (slowly) 12V battery more often than a 48V one rarely..
Ah, OK, but then you would lose additional energy while converting from 12V to 48V again. So I think charging 48V directly might be a lot better and more efficient.
Looking forward to a video on LTO batteries. It is the battery you buy for life... And your children's life... And probably your grandchildren's life. :-)
Bevor es noch nicht den PD Standert gab habe ich auch immer Buck Boost converters verwenden aber mit PD Standert brauchen ich es nicht mehr so of da PD 9v 12v 15v und 20v liefert und einfach fasst überall verfügbar ist
There are more details, but to keep it brief, I basically want to power 5 Enphase IQ7+ inverters (each clipping at 300W) from the 2.2kW rated Accessory Power Module in my Chevy Volt so that I can integrate them into an Encharge10 system with my grid-tied solar array. When the grid goes down, the system would seamlessly make use of solar power when available, then the 12 or so kWh in the traction battery, but then also the car will continue to operate for ~6 days as a quiet gas generator with low emissions, keeping the battery charged and the microgrid operational even if solar production is low/insufficient. This approach also guarantees that I can’t draw too much power from the car (as might happen if I went the cheap route and bought a 1500W inverter). All I would need to do is boost the 12V output to 50V to keep the microinverters above the MPPT range. It would be nice to use one boost converter per microinverter at 300W, but then they would be running at 12V 25A input 50V 6A output and would overheat. 10 total boost converters in parallel on the input should take care of power/heat issues. 2 in parallel output per microinverter (each boost converter running at 150W (12V 12.5A) input and 50V 3A output. Am I missing anything? Do I need large diodes on the output pairs in case one goes down and the other does not? Any chance the 1800W version would handle the 12V 25A input without overheating?
The only Boost MPPT Charge Controller I know of is the "MPT-7210a" I've had mine work OK but I know a lot of people have problems with them, probably worth getting one and doing some tests with it :)
@@OffGridGarageAustralia yeah it certainly does! I'm not even sure if it's true mppt if it allows you to set your solar panel voltage? Very odd and the fans are too loud 😂
@@chazable I had a few MMPTs but have never seen an option to set a voltage for the solar input? And this would not make sense as it changes depending on your solar output.
there shouldn't be any problem using boost/buck convertors to charge batteries as long as you don't exceed the battery voltage and have a proper balancing solution in place. Generally, keeping the voltage slightly below the maximum will also assist in avoiding overcharging, as well as extending the battery life by not stressing the battery as much.
im planing to go around australia with an electric bike and a custom E camper towed behind that has its own motors and battery system and iam using these boost converters in the system to boost the 60 volt from the series solar panels to the 85 volt i need for the bike and camper,i found that an input of 60 volt allows me to access more easily the full current specs of the boost converrter,so yes ill be relying on the converters ,i havent had one fail yet but ill be talking a couple of spares as im asking alot from them.
i must admit im not soley using the boost converters there is a grin cycleanalyst version 3 with a shunt that monitors the charge voltage and current and a smart bms with charge ,dischage,and precharge contactors and hall sensor current and voltage ring sensor, there is a samsung tablet in the camper that is use to monitor and controll the setting for the systemso i have plenty of failsafe if the boost converters fluctuate in anyway
A BMS should be added to that pack. If not possible, then i recommend the iCharger X8 because it monitors each cell and does balancing (not sure if it galvanically isolates input from output). Low voltage cutoff could be implemented with a module like the XH-M609 w/ an extra beefy relay added. Also if no bms, low voltage cutoff should be set conservatively high to decrease the chance of any cell going too low. Similar high voltage cutoff modules also exist. It is risky to charge only w/ a buck (step down) because when they go tits up, they can present the full input voltage to the load, i.e. batteries in this case; also one or more cells might get overcharged if no bms - usual discussion.
Donation Sent, get Philip charged! :) BTW I'd say probably don't connect those cheap boost converters to something expensive, like a big battery bank. Consider what happens if just one of the potentiometers fail.
Minulla on 3 suurta lyijyhappoakkua rinnakkain 12v 24 V aurinkopaneelin ja mppt-latausohjaimen kanssa. invertteri 230v Voin ladata hyvin 60v mopoparistoja tai enemmän. omilla latureillaan.
if i was able to have good monitoring of the buck output, id personally be very happy to use the buck-boost converter as the sole charger.. BMS-balancer should be fine to keep the battery in check 👌 love your work mate, keep it up (🍻🍻)
But what happens if the battery is full and the SCC tries driving the 'solar' input to an inefficient part of the current-voltage curve as it would do with a solar panel?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I have a Midnite Classic 200 MPPT 90 A it has a time of use function and it has a special buck boost feature aswell for wind power or hydro
Another entertaining as well as educational video. Thank you. Question: I'm looking at efficiencies between DC to DC converters and you have stated that this is the more efficient method. But 90.8% efficiency isn't as high as most inverters, state the high 90 s - The internet also confers with these results -can you un-confuse me- ? many thanks
the solar boost controller the green ones i told you about will work to charge input can be from a laptop charger or even solar i know alot whop charge ebikes like this
If you have a good BMS to protect the cells, a CC/CV output converter will make a good charger. Just set the volts per cell down to about 3.5v per cell.
@@tryagain.k1821 The CC/CV board. If you set the volts to (example) 14.0 for a 12v battery, that is 3.50 volts per cell. When the battery gets to the set voltage, there will be no current flow (goes to zero) because there is no voltage difference between the power source and the battery. A "good BMS" is there to stop the show if a cell goes high enough that you want to go to protect mode.
@@ddthames however, if top balancing // cells before adding the BMS, the current will be miniscule approaching 3.5 so a higher voltage is used and the resting cell voltage monitored. Your method will not produce a resting voltage of 3.5 V and will occupy an infinite time (asymptotic approach to final voltage). I, of course, am ignoring any volt drop across the BMS, as you are.
I am all for regenerative dischargers! They are super handy, What I would suggest is a hobby charger that has that function, those normally have alot of safeties built in but I guess voltage on your primary battery will be way too high for any normal hobby charger so the boost converter you are using is probably the best solution. However in order to run the boost converter as a battery tester you will need to have a power meter that will remember the total power when it turns off. I am assuming on the battery under test the stopping point will be the BMS trip point correct?
Andy just when I thought you've already helped us all out enough with your advert free videos, you go and do this selfless act for someone in need. What an absolute champion you are 🥰
Great idea to buy this man a charger for his electric buggy.
I live in the UK and have an account with a Victron distributor. I could purchase this charger at a reduced price.
Why add to the profits of Amazon if you don't need to.
Happy to help.
Vell?? Vwat happendz??? Did zee German get back to you on ziss, your propozal??
As someone who has MS/Anti-Mog.. when you were talking about the story when he brought up about the batteries are just important as your legs are to you. That's so true you don't realize what you have until it's gone don't take life for granted... And what you were doing good Sir is so awesome. We need more good people like you and all of you that are helping someone elses in need.. if everyone could do that we could change the world. Make the world the way it was supposed to be !!!
I joined MS and cancer Diagnose in the past. It is a pleasure to help here. All the best to All of you. NEVER GIVE UP
Great, thank you!
Very philanthropic, love it!
Still, Philips charger is beautiful craftsmanship and it would be a waste to not use it as intended. A boost/buck will indeed do the charging as good as the Victron charger (for lifepo4 that is), the BMS will make sure there’s no overcharge! Spend the money on something useful! I would go with a victron smartshunt for the the mobilityscooter instead 🤗
Love your channel Andy 🤗
Hi Andy! Andrew from Calgary, Canada here. I don't trust the boost converter to feed directly into my batteries. I do, however, use it to feed into my MPPT charge controller on my camping trailer (or caravan, as you prefer) from my towing pickup (or ute, as you prefer) to charge the LiFePO4 batteries from my vehicle alternator. By boosting the 14.4V alternator output to 36V to match my solar panel output I add about 360W of charging through my regular trailer 7 pin electrical connector which is limited to 10 amps. When camping in the forests of Western Canada there is very little light at ground level under the forest canopy. Being able to recharge more while travelling between sites can be very useful to avoid having to use a generator. And we camp in winter with temperatures down to -25C, so having power for the propane furnace is vital. You can buy products that allow you to charge an auxiliary battery from an alternator, but they cost about $240 CAD compared to $10 for adding one of these connected to an existing solar MPPT.
Hi Neighbour, 21hrs east of you =D
Interesting. How does the MPPT handles the situation if the battery is full? Normally it would steer the panel in a inefficient area of the UI curve to lower charge current. But with a CV source as the input???
@Cedillallidec did you practice this method for long time...? My plan is use the boost converter to charge my 12V VRLA battery from my car's alternator (14.4v traditional alternator). Or you have any better sugestion...?
Thank in advance...
What a great idea! @Philip, get a better charger! Thanks for the opportunity, looking forward to the video chat with him :)
And yes, I would not mind to use the DC2DC converter myself, but I am a tinkerer, I would buy 2-3 spare. But my life does not depend on it, so it's a irrelevant opinion.
I bought the "1800w" version of that boost converter. I found the hottest part to be the cheap output capacitors, so I added a few more in parallel. Efficiency was basically the same as yours.
The *best* battery charger is *constant current/constant voltage*
No mppt, no smartphone, no microcontrollers, absorption and other crap. (Only lead needs an absorption curve)
These cheap buck converters are just fine or better than an expensive smart charger that could glitch on you from esd or random firmware corruption.
The overcharge situation cannot occur because, any sane person designing a constrained electrical system takes all the steps and a few more to ensure the constrains are never exceeded.
Current fuses, input and output, to prevent overcurrents and fire, adequate cooling, thermal fuses, solid contacts and plugs, *precise* voltage settings and *conservative* current settings.
Charging a li-xxx battery with 0.5C or less and making sure the BMS does it's job are crucial to battery longevity and safety. Not the fancy charging curves and bluetooth connectivity.
I worked in the computer/electronics domain for the last 20 years and the lesson I learned in the last 30+ years of studying electronics is that, for mission critical applications, *dumb is way better than smart.*
Dumb electronics* :)
Thank you Andy to do this you are a true gentleman and thank you for your show you always do very inspiring things from South Africa
Thank you very much!
Thanks!
Thank you very much!
Thanks so much Andy! I was just looking for some Boost Converters for a Solar EV project and seeing a real-world test of just what I was planning to do was PERFECT! Your DC-DC Converter resource page in the description was excellent, I just wish I had come to your garage and that page first, it would have saved me hours digging online.
Very welcome!
Sir, long time watcher, first time commenter. You are a great person doing great things. Now, you are spreading the great. Love your heart, GREAT SIR. Enjoy the "beers" sent to you and Philip.
Thank you very much! This is appreciated!
Yes, I have been using one of these for about 2.5 years, from a battery build by Jehu Garcia (Jag35), the BMS protects from over charging. The larger version of your converter has built in fan and stand offs 👍
Exactly! That's what the BMS is for. I don't know what kind of magic people think is in the Victron charger. It's the same technology, same chips, but with a warranty, markup and a walled garden. Oh, and if anything fails in the Victron, it's toast. Anything fails on your cheap-o converter - you can actually repair it.
@@rokask I have both, in the UK they maybe cloudy weeks, and need to charge on grid, the converter powered by HP server power supply outputs a very clean 12VDC. These power supplies are very cheap from ebay. Victron 75/10 is good kit and the app allows easy configuration. But if I had taken more time to look at my needs may have bought a Buddy Pole - POWERmini or POWERplus, which are all on screen configure. They are more robust compared to the Victron, and it irritates me that I have switch my satnav on my phone before the Connect app will switch on, if I knew that at the time of purchase I would have never bought 75/10. Buddy Pole does not track you 👍
You sir not only funny and entertaining you are well educated you explain things excellent for even someone who has no clue what they are doing with electronics in the first place and after watching this entire video and it's whole I have to say you are entirely a good person as well may God bless you and may you have a fruitful and long life
Thanks a lot for your kind words and feedback.
I've used boost buck converters for discharging a while back. It's great. Right now I am trucking and don't have time to play with it.
I had the exact same buck converter to charge me Ebike, went POP after a few months....... What a great idea Andy, love is king!
Thank you very much!
Good on ya ALL, for helping out Phil like that! I have used these cheap Chinese buck, boost & boost/buck types for different projects and voltages, they are fine for so many things, and even setup correctly could charge lithium batteries to some extent, but I agree with your comments Andy, and always go for a reasonably larger size converter than anticipated load, and fans obviously do make a big difference for higher outputs. They could be handy for cheap 48v - 5v, 12v, 24v outputs for various controls and cheap projects like LED lighting. I have used them regularly with 12v - 35v boost for LED floodlights and 12v homemade high bay LED lights too, very handy & cheap, but dont push their limits or temperature too far, we know what happens, magic smoke!
Thanks
Thank you very much!
Putting your hand on a live circuit board while wearing your wedding ring! You like to live life on the edge.
I would need to touch two life wires at the same time with the same ring and enough current. That's not gonna happen.
That's why I don't wear my wedding ring. My wife though doesn't really understand that, lol
@@OffGridGarageAustraliaBoss pisss to install do sola......👌
Danke!
Thank you very much!
Done, great idea to help others less fortunate Andy. Gut gemacht!
Thank you very much!
@@OffGridGarageAustralia time for an update video on the fundraiser and let us know how much you were able to donate to MS Australia.😀
...yep, excellent idea Andy.
Andy, thank you for loads of inspiration and effort!
I think that charging batteries with Chinese DC/DC converters is perfectly fine if proper fuses or breakers are being used.
I also think that Philip could have some more urgent idea how to spend some donation gift.
Thanks for the buck boost test, i was wondering about the claimed efficiency
Better idea then just buying things is build things yourself;
Reduce, reuse, recycle, re purpose and learn.
I have family dealing with MS as well. This is a MOST Excellent idea!
I think Philip did an awesome job building a charger for his battery pack. I have had no problems with using DC-DC modules charging any batteries I use, because the "proper charger" is only a buck converter or SMPS with a fancy software to control it and a big metal box to put it in, Phillip already did an awesome job with his charger box complete with waterproof connectors.
Batteries really only degrade from high charge or discharge currents, so my argument would be that there will be no difference between a 16A DC-DC converter and the 16A Victron Charger.
My reason is that he has a BMS already, so if the charger was getting hot and drifting its voltage if that is bad enough the BMS will trip and nothing bad will happen. And lastly 16A charging a bettery is 16A charging a battery, it makes no difference where it came from.
Should a diode be put in place to keep the battery from backflow.
@@russellm7530 that would be a good precaution but with large currents you would not want a normal diode, instead you would want an ideal diode module.
However it is not necessary if you are not going to leave the boost converter connected 24/7. The circuitry in those is very simple, the output side has a voltage divider and an indicator LED, then current flow would stop at the diodes already in the converter.
Now for reverse polarity protection it could be useful but stopping the drain of a large battery through an LED and some high value resistors. So there is not much point in adding diodes just for that.
I'm thinking of buying some of these to make a battery to battery charger for my boat.
If you can trust it, the AliExpress listing says "Output Counter filling: Yes, for charging plus blocking diode is not required."
I take that to mean the output battery can't pass current backwards into the input battery (or solar panel), but who knows.
@@bhartley1024 Yes boost converters can only flow in one direction (part of how they are wired) The internal diode would have to fail short which would instantly destroy the converter anyway.
The only extra protection you have to add is a BMS or fuses to the battery you are charging, so if the boost converter did blow up (which they definitely do as I have popped all 3 of mine at least once because the mosfet got too hot) you would need to protect the battery under charge not just the input to the converter.
Bedankt
Thank you very much!
Hello Andy, i think you could order the charger soon ;-) 20 beers from me for Philip . best regards Guido
Guess he is over 100 already
Wow, thank you very much!
Excellent idea Andy!! 5 "beers" is my donation!
2 beers 🍻
Thank you very much both of you!
Just found your channel, your a gentleman and thx for the education waving a hand from Florida
I've been using one of these boost converters for quite some time. Strangely enough, I did an efficiency test yesterday also. I actually use it to charge my 48v powerwalls from my 24v so I expect the efficiency to be roughly the same for overall power.
Input Voltage Input Current Input Power Output Voltage Output Current Output Power Efficiency
13.26 5.09 67.49 30.06 1.88 57.51 83.73%
13.24 10.19 134.92 30.00 4.00 120.00 88.94%
13.23 15.08 199.51 29.96 5.98 179.16 89.80%
13.22 20.07 265.33 29.91 7.81 233.60 88.04%
13.19 25.28 333.44 29.81 9.8 292.14 87.61%
13.18 30 395.40 29.71 11.44 340.88 85.96%
Hi, is need any diode or similar in the output not to get back current from the output battery to the boost converter when there is no input voltage ?
@@diydsolar kind of... If you leave the output connected then it keeps the output capacitors charged and the led lit but that's about it... It doesn't use much energy.
Yes, I do use buck converter to LiFePO4 battery. We do believe the converter rather than controller.
Thanks Andy, I think Philip needs a better charger, one you don't need to think about. I'm in (very impressed with Philip's work quality)
It's good right? I was impressed too.
What I do is to use the boost converter to set the target charge voltage but also use those cheap cell-level monitors to watch that no individual cell exceeds 4.2v or it makes a very loud noise. (I also check both with a cheap voltmeter and cheap voltage reference).
Phillip is use LIFEp04 batteries not Li-Ion
I don't see anything wrong with a buck converter for charging, but not for a long term solution.
Great work uncle Andy, and a great gesture , hope you don't mind the term uncle.
A great idea to help Phillip out. But... there are countless Phillips and others with the same dilemma. The truth, in my view, is that MPPT charge controller and other Lifepo4 battery charger manufacturers are gouging the public, prices keep going up and up. This is fine in a supply/ demand economy. But, how about the Phillips? What I mean is, we should use our collective brain power to find/ make a reasonable alternative to what they want to sell us.
Absolutely agree with this. I made my own BMS for partly this reason and partly because I had specific needs as running hybrid. The brand name manufacturers are trading on the general ignorance of the battery using public and building on the inherent fear of the unknown to sell products at an inflated price that do far more than needed and often duplicate the actual required functions that are already in a BMS (as opposed to a simple battery protection system) Sites such as this are great in educating people away from reliance on the brand names and promoting understanding over blind faith.
The victron chargers, although EXPENSIVE, are worth every penny. I have 2 of them, and do not regret buying them at all! Also I bought the IP66 ones.
Excellent idea and effort for Phillip, you are Top Man on that one Andy. As for your question regarding if I would use a Cheap DC converter to charge an LFE pack, I've seen cheap 'non-isolated' DC Buck converter based chargers fail to a higher voltage, and once a AC to DC power adapter deliver 110vac out the DC port. I would only use a DC-converter to charge an LFE battery with a secondary or even third means of reliable overcharging protection in the case of Li-On charging.
I would expect that Phillip's BMS likely has over-charging protection and possibly thermal over-temp protection, but many don't recommend relying on BMS over-charging protection when using a cheap charger, especially with Li-On. So for a mission critical application like Phillip's I would think the Victron charger an almost essential precaution.
Other, possible protection precautions could be installing charging fuses in-line with the charging circuit and fusing it to very slightly above the charging current, so if a dramatic increase in charging current were to occur the fuse might interrupt the circuit.Along with a charge protection fuse.
I've also used reverse power blocking Diodes to protect against reverse connections and if a charger output were to latch to ground or somehow reverse polarity.
There are adjustable inexpensive over/undercharging protection modules with solid-state relays for only a few $ that could be used, but if the charging current is only an amp or two, an adjustable Voltage regulator inline after the DC-Converter set to say .3 volt over the charge voltage could offer some additional protection.
An AC line timer set to charge once for the expected charging time is something I've used on non float voltage chargers on Lead-Acid batteries.
Many years ago before BMS systems when I was maintaining very large industrial Flooded Ni-Cad emergency power packs, and we had issues with thermal run-away and massive fires during charging that caused millions of $ of damage. I designed a simple protection system that utilized simple LM339 voltage detector circuits on cell banks, and if if any cell banks went over charge voltage it would cut the Line supply to the charger, and signal an alarm. I also connected thermocouple temperature monitors on each cell (literally dozens) in each bank that-would cut charging power if any cell experienced a temperature rise.
Great comment and information, Jack. Thanks very much!
I cannot trust this dc-dc for a critical use, even if i use them for other projects.
Philip, wish you the best and Andy you are a great man 🍻
A tip from someone who killed a lot of these things. Be careful so the battery connected to input and battery connected to output do not share common negative or common ground if ground is connected to negative. It will blow up the converter because most of these dont isolate output and input
I was wondering about that. Thanks for the warning...
Ahhh, seriously? This makes them useless for just about every project I had in mind.
Any recommendations for a similar unit that can handle battery to battery charging with a common ground?
And you did a Video on the best voltage for best performance for 3.2v which was 3.5v great Video !
The donation idea is great :)
Andy, donation sent. Thanks for doing this.
Thank you very much!
Thank you for doing this Andy.
I'm not sure if you are aware of this, the constant current adjustment is for the output current, not the input current. I always use buck-boost converters which can give a constant voltage output even when you don't know what the input will be, the price is not that different. However, for using multiple solar panels in parallel, if you use a common input into a single DC converter you are going to have difficulty balancing the inputs. Similarly, if you use an individual DC converter for each panel you are going to have difficulty balancing the outputs. You can try to balance these with low value high power resistors but he only absolute way to get around this is to have converters where the output chips are synchronised with regard to the voltage, but these are expensive. Good luck with this.
I am doing similar use. Having two 1800 Watt boost converter. One adjusted to 48v and another one is 12v. meaning if we are doing offigrid camping then can charge it from either from 12v or 48v.
Great video. I would keep an eye when using Buck converter since the failure mode of the switching MOSFET is shorted circuit which means it will dump input Voltage to the output and damage the load.
BTW, great idea on the donation.
that is true, but the big red module is actually a boost converter, and their failure mode is to direct short to ground, which will immediately bow its input fuses, leaving the output safe from a voltage spike because there are diodes pointing toward the output.
@@SuperBrainAK Well that is why I say Buck converter as shown in Part 1 of the video. Boost converter failure mode as you described.
@@budmartin3344 yep a buck converter failure would be pretty bad, hopefully the fuses would blow before anything really bad would happen, cheers!
i donated 5 bucks to Philip God bless Philip
Thank you very much!
I am planning to use these boost converters to use them as MPPT for a 16s (54 V) LiFePO4 battery. They only cost 14 USD , will handle two 550W panels, and no need to buy expensive MPPT devices.
superb idea andy - donation sent
Thank you very much!
Na prima.. Nicht bis zum ende geschaut... 😎... 8 Bier von mir für Philips Ladegerät...
Andy.. Hut ab... Und danke das du das hier alles machst
Danke Dir vielmals, ich reiche es weiter!
I love al the video’s and Learned a lot. 10 beers for Philip.
Wow, thanks Frank!
I would use them but with protection circuits for max voltage to the battery and discharge from the battery. Thanks for sharing
Great point
Love your enthusiasm! It makes it much more interesting. Top tutorials ❤. Cheers from Australia subbed and liked 👍. Edit: sorry mate! I forgot that you are in Australia 🇦🇺? So cheers from Brisbane.
Great idea Andy
Thank you !
Philip can monitor his batteries and never leaves them longer then overnight, he has the smarts, don't make things too complicated, more to go wrong and more $
Over voltage under voltage and temperature monitor is all you need, make an alarm sound
I have been doing this for years when doing a capacity test on batteries. We work very had to produce our electricity why waste it. Gave Philip 4 Beers. Why not with extra money buy Philip an extra battery. I know with with all your millions of viewers you will get a lot of donations
Thank you very much!
I would like a boost converter working from 2.5V with a high current so I can test single cells. I guess I have to invest in an iCharger at some stage...
The icharger can regenerative discharge a battery with 30A and tell you the Ah and Wh. The icharger is expensive, and I have not personally used one, but different videos look really promising.
I agree, I use an Icharger 4010 duo in my Garage to charge My DIY 15S E-Bike (2 separate batteries) 8S & 7S -10P.
I also use an Icharger X8 which stays in the house for Charging smaller DIY battery packs.
I don't use any BMS, I don't trust what I can't see, regarding Cell voltages. (Bms can fail destroying expensive cells within your battery 👎)
However ofcourse I would use a very expensive BMS if I was buying 200 - 300Ah Lifepo4 Cells for an offgrid situation.
The Ichargers charge & balance all my batteries within 1mV & to whatever Voltage & current I choose. 👍👌
Great idea. A pleasure to support it.🍺
Thank you very much!
awesome idea to help Philip and make use of you reach 🤘 beer sent.
Thank you very much!
yes i used buck/boost converter to charge my portable packs and my battery system when i was offgrid for a few years once the cc/cv voltage is set they work like any other lithium charger
What a lovely idea. 4 beers.
Wow, thanks a lot!
I would not trust a $10 buck boost to charge my battery as something set and forget. I would trust a high quality one on the other hand if my battery has bms protection for over voltage and i was keeping an eye on it. But a charger is best. And for Phillip this is not so much a hobby thing but is a necessity and financially he needs the batteries to last as long as they can and a charger is going to achieve this.
Hi Andy, thx for this test..... Was exactly what I am about to do .. (I got the 1800W version), i.e. to charge a 48VLFPO4 battery from a 12VLFPO4s model. In my point of view, for wind turbine system, it's more easier to charge a 12V battery with a basic wind turbine than a 48V model since the 12V wind turbine will required less torque to turn. In other words, it's better to charge (slowly) 12V battery more often than a 48V one rarely..
Ah, OK, but then you would lose additional energy while converting from 12V to 48V again. So I think charging 48V directly might be a lot better and more efficient.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Will see :) but according to my wind strenght distribution.... I should produce more despite the extra loss. :)
Brilliant Andy just brilliant. $10 inbound.
Thank you Martin!
Andy is the man!!!!!👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Mulțumim!
Thank you very much!
Looking forward to a video on LTO batteries. It is the battery you buy for life... And your children's life... And probably your grandchildren's life. :-)
It's not an LTO though. I stay true to LiFePO4 😁
Bevor es noch nicht den PD Standert gab habe ich auch immer Buck Boost converters verwenden aber mit PD Standert brauchen ich es nicht mehr so of da PD 9v 12v 15v und 20v liefert und einfach fasst überall verfügbar ist
Usually switchmode power supplies are bad efficiencies at lower power levels.
There are more details, but to keep it brief, I basically want to power 5 Enphase IQ7+ inverters (each clipping at 300W) from the 2.2kW rated Accessory Power Module in my Chevy Volt so that I can integrate them into an Encharge10 system with my grid-tied solar array. When the grid goes down, the system would seamlessly make use of solar power when available, then the 12 or so kWh in the traction battery, but then also the car will continue to operate for ~6 days as a quiet gas generator with low emissions, keeping the battery charged and the microgrid operational even if solar production is low/insufficient. This approach also guarantees that I can’t draw too much power from the car (as might happen if I went the cheap route and bought a 1500W inverter). All I would need to do is boost the 12V output to 50V to keep the microinverters above the MPPT range.
It would be nice to use one boost converter per microinverter at 300W, but then they would be running at 12V 25A input 50V 6A output and would overheat. 10 total boost converters in parallel on the input should take care of power/heat issues. 2 in parallel output per microinverter (each boost converter running at 150W (12V 12.5A) input and 50V 3A output. Am I missing anything? Do I need large diodes on the output pairs in case one goes down and the other does not?
Any chance the 1800W version would handle the 12V 25A input without overheating?
The Volt has a 2.2kW output power module? Like with 12V or how does that work?
Genasun solar charge controllers are the best small system boost controllers for reliablity.
I look them up. Thanks
Good idea, I use a Victron charger myself. I will go to my PC and donate (no PayPal on my tablet). Done now, 4 "beers" from me.
Thank you very much, John, much appreciated!
The only Boost MPPT Charge Controller I know of is the "MPT-7210a" I've had mine work OK but I know a lot of people have problems with them, probably worth getting one and doing some tests with it :)
I have one sitting here for a while but have only used it once to test. It has a terrible programming and menu structure.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia yeah it certainly does! I'm not even sure if it's true mppt if it allows you to set your solar panel voltage? Very odd and the fans are too loud 😂
@@chazable I had a few MMPTs but have never seen an option to set a voltage for the solar input? And this would not make sense as it changes depending on your solar output.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia exactly, I'd say it's probably more of a glorified boost converter with extra annoying bits haha 😂
there shouldn't be any problem using boost/buck convertors to charge batteries as long as you don't exceed the battery voltage and have a proper balancing solution in place. Generally, keeping the voltage slightly below the maximum will also assist in avoiding overcharging, as well as extending the battery life by not stressing the battery as much.
And don't forget a good BMS which can disconnect the converter if something goes wrong.
im planing to go around australia with an electric bike and a custom E camper towed behind that has its own motors and battery system and iam using these boost converters in the system to boost the 60 volt from the series solar panels to the 85 volt i need for the bike and camper,i found that an input of 60 volt allows me to access more easily the full current specs of the boost converrter,so yes ill be relying on the converters ,i havent had one fail yet but ill be talking a couple of spares as im asking alot from them.
i must admit im not soley using the boost converters there is a grin cycleanalyst version 3 with a shunt that monitors the charge voltage and current and a smart bms with charge ,dischage,and precharge contactors and hall sensor current and voltage ring sensor, there is a samsung tablet in the camper that is use to monitor and controll the setting for the systemso i have plenty of failsafe if the boost converters fluctuate in anyway
ive charged many of batteries with buck / boost convertors, BUT only 1s batteries... if more then 1s, must have balance charger or VERY GOOD BMS
Cheers, Mate! 2 *beers* coming your way.
Thank you. I'll pass it on!
A BMS should be added to that pack. If not possible, then i recommend the iCharger X8 because it monitors each cell and does balancing (not sure if it galvanically isolates input from output). Low voltage cutoff could be implemented with a module like the XH-M609 w/ an extra beefy relay added. Also if no bms, low voltage cutoff should be set conservatively high to decrease the chance of any cell going too low. Similar high voltage cutoff modules also exist.
It is risky to charge only w/ a buck (step down) because when they go tits up, they can present the full input voltage to the load, i.e. batteries in this case; also one or more cells might get overcharged if no bms - usual discussion.
Thanks for the clarified video, useful content.
Donation Sent, get Philip charged! :) BTW I'd say probably don't connect those cheap boost converters to something expensive, like a big battery bank. Consider what happens if just one of the potentiometers fail.
Thanks a lot Brad!
Thanks for this very good explanation video and the super idea to Help Philipp with a Donation. Best regards Form Germany Form Mathias
Waste not want not. Nice example...
Minulla on 3 suurta lyijyhappoakkua rinnakkain 12v 24 V aurinkopaneelin ja mppt-latausohjaimen kanssa. invertteri 230v Voin ladata hyvin 60v mopoparistoja tai enemmän. omilla latureillaan.
Would a boost converter help the efficientcy of a PWM controller?
How about part 3 where you hook up a 40v solar panel to a 48v battery. That's the boat situation you describe in part one.
Brilliant Andy brilliant!
Schöne Aktion!!!!! Spende ist unterwegs! Gibts auch eine Übersicht wieviel zusammen gekommen ist?
Danke Dir erstmal, klar gibts da noch was hinterher... 😉
Man I have a crappy unit that gets blazing hot doing 4a input. Need to get one of these units.
I discharged a 1.4kWh battery yesterday and it went full blast for hours with the fan attached and zero voltage drift.
Hi Andy, The late Jack Richart od EVTV did some interisting experiments with charging Tesla battery packs!
I know, he was so good, watch almost all his videos...
5 Beers inbound from me! I was starting to worry that Andy would have a drinking problem with all his beer donates :)
Thanks Norman, much appreciated!
if i was able to have good monitoring of the buck output, id personally be very happy to use the buck-boost converter as the sole charger.. BMS-balancer should be fine to keep the battery in check 👌 love your work mate, keep it up (🍻🍻)
Thanks Joel!
I'd use that for energy generation diversification can run that into a charge controller
But what happens if the battery is full and the SCC tries driving the 'solar' input to an inefficient part of the current-voltage curve as it would do with a solar panel?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I think with my Midnite 200 has the ability to buck boost as well as mppt
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I have a Midnite Classic 200 MPPT 90 A it has a time of use function and it has a special buck boost feature aswell for wind power or hydro
Another entertaining as well as educational video. Thank you. Question: I'm looking at efficiencies between DC to DC converters and you have stated that this is the more efficient method. But 90.8% efficiency isn't as high as most inverters, state the high 90 s - The internet also confers with these results -can you un-confuse me- ? many thanks
the solar boost controller the green ones i told you about will work to charge input can be from a laptop charger or even solar i know alot whop charge ebikes like this
I have one but never used it so far, just once for a test. Awful programming and setup.
If you have a good BMS to protect the cells, a CC/CV output converter will make a good charger. Just set the volts per cell down to about 3.5v per cell.
Where do you set the volts, BMS or PSU ?
@@tryagain.k1821 The CC/CV board. If you set the volts to (example) 14.0 for a 12v battery, that is 3.50 volts per cell. When the battery gets to the set voltage, there will be no current flow (goes to zero) because there is no voltage difference between the power source and the battery. A "good BMS" is there to stop the show if a cell goes high enough that you want to go to protect mode.
@@ddthames however, if top balancing // cells before adding the BMS, the current will be miniscule approaching 3.5 so a higher voltage is used and the resting cell voltage monitored. Your method will not produce a resting voltage of 3.5 V and will occupy an infinite time (asymptotic approach to final voltage).
I, of course, am ignoring any volt drop across the BMS, as you are.
I am all for regenerative dischargers! They are super handy, What I would suggest is a hobby charger that has that function, those normally have alot of safeties built in but I guess voltage on your primary battery will be way too high for any normal hobby charger so the boost converter you are using is probably the best solution. However in order to run the boost converter as a battery tester you will need to have a power meter that will remember the total power when it turns off. I am assuming on the battery under test the stopping point will be the BMS trip point correct?
90.8% why's the thumbnail say 98% love your videos!
Give the guy a break man. Andy likes to play with his thumbnail. The least we can allow him 🤣
how would these connect to solar panels? solar panel to buck converter, buck converter to charge controller?
Yes, that should work.