I use a 265 foot rectangle, corner feed, 4:1 balun , 450 ohm ladder line 20 feet up on metal poles. I have worked the world with this, out performs my 2 element 20 meter beam, verticals and long wire.
Just what I have put it up 25 years ago when my tower and beam blew down. And never have had to do any maintenance on it. Only thing I have added this year is an amp. Love it.
Essentially what I did... It's just a length of wire in a loop-ish shape, fed with 450 Ohm.. Forget about resonance, don't need it, and start operating. The disadvantage is these antenna can be temperamental, but when they are dialed in, they are wonderful.
Note that the current distribution was for a full wave loop. On harmonics it gets more complicated. A dipole over real ground has about 6 or 8dBi of gain. Two straight dipoles fed in phase has gain that depends on the spacing. With only quarter wave spacing that is pretty small. Bending the ends of the dipoles reduces that to like maybe only 1 dB over a single dipole. On higher harmonics it will have more gain but also more nulls. I have after many years ended up with multiple dipoles, one broadside to Europe, one broadside to South America and one East/West. I can frequently see one or more S-unit improvement as I switch between the antennas!
@@davidc5027 it all depends on the particular antenna and height above ground. In my case having a second 10 meter dipole at 40 feet sure made a big difference. Stations I could not hear off the end of one were two S units or so better on the other one. Having the second dipole on South America to fill in the null on the first dipole, which was pointed generally on Europe made a huge difference to me. I ended up putting up a third 10 meter dipole East/West for last years 10 meter contest. Had a good bit of overlap in the pattern. Probably just two would have been good enough if I could get them at right angles. This year I have now added a second and third 20 meter dipole for the DX contest. The East one is doing great into Africa and KH6 direction compared to my single NW/SW direction. However the nulls on a relatively low 20 meter dipole are not as deep as on the 10 meter dipole as the 20 is only half as high as the 10 for the same height in feet above ground. But it is was still worth my effort and I am pretty satisfied.
Great material, thanks for sharing. It inspired me to investigate the radiation patterns of the horizontal full wave loop. Will come out with the video soon...
Well I watched this video 2 years ago and finally got my loop put up. Here is how I calculated my loop. Bought 1000' of wire, buddy wanted 250', and I strung up the rest! Made kind of a diamond shape up at 30-50 feet fed from a corner with 600 ohm ladder line. Works better than anyone on these websites and studies led me to believe. Works good from 160-10 with my balanced tuner. Only run 100 watts. On 20 meters lots of times I only need to run 5 watts to break pileups. Yes there are probably nulls on transmit but I really don't think so on receive. I can hear what seems like everything which is a good and bad thing at times! 73
Fantastic. That is a lot of wire you have up in the air. I was wondering how a really large loop would respond. Sounds like you are experiencing great results. I imagine there nulls and peaks, especially on the upper bands, but you can't argue with the results. Well done! - Ed N7PHY
@@12ppoundtest Yes sometimes my other antennas outperform the loop on 17-10 meters, but not always. On 160, I can have QSO's with stations 4 states away with 100 watts. I was told with my signal on 160 all I would need is 300-500 watts to really break through during tough conditions. One other notable thing about big loops is that they are not as quiet as is generally reported. When A/Bed with my 218' endfed L, the 160-20m signals usually (almost always) have a better SNR on the loop. 17-10m can vary a bit on what is better. In my limited experience a "quiet" antenna is one that isn't receiving very well! 73 DE KF0BBU
I have used a full wave 80m loop fed with a 2:1 current balun at the feed and RG214 coax to the rig and it is an outstanding performer. I did have open wire line for a while but when it broke I switched to balun and coax. No difference. Also when the copper wire on the loop eventually broke I went to thin Stainless cable. After some adjustments it worked great. Cheers VK5LB
I used a 144 ft loop with the "Q" section of 75 Ohm coax transfromer and 50 Ohm Coax feed to the shack. Low SWR across 40M amd high angle for strong signals out to around 500 miles, averaged 2 S units better than a halfwave dipole at the same height above ground. Have plenty of antennas for the other bands. 73...K8JD
Great video! I'm gathering all the materials to do a horizontal loop, covert, in the woods, hopefully no one will see it! It's kind of my last option now, but hopefully it will be the solution!
Salmon run 2020, cool I was there also, hopefully will be there this year again!!! I did the same antenna setup at home. full wave delta, fed at the end, fed with homemade ladder line, about 460 ohm, except whith a 9:1 transformer and I get 0 ohms all across the bands, 👍 N3WUB
I use a 264 ft rectangular loop, height at each of the 4 corners varies, I worked 50+ countries on SSB this past winter alone, using any/all bands. Only need the external antenna tuner on 40 and 17 meters, others load up easily. Loops are great but take a load of experimentation.
Thanks for sharing that video Ed. I'm in the beginning stages of designing/installing a Full Wave Loop of my own. As you, I have wanted to try one of these for years....and have just recently gained access to enough space to make it happen. 73 from a former Woodway Sr. High School Alumni......the old Woodway Sr. High that is no longer. 73 de Chris WA7RAR
I've used a full wave horizontal loop cut for approximately 40m. Antenna elements were connected to 450ohm ladder line, into my shack, ladder line into a 4:1 voltage balun, then into an LDG IT-100 then into my IC-718. It worked really well, was more quiet than a vertical, enabled some great DX as well as good regional (200-300mi) comms. I'm getting ready to put up another one that I intend to connect directly at the feedpoint of the loop to the antenna lug and ground lug of an Icom AH-3 remote tuner, then a short coax run into my IC-718. I'm curious if anyone else feeds their horizontal loop this way...
Back in the late 1960s, in Australia, and probably because it was expensive building, powering and maintaining remote UHF or VHF repeaters, government organisations and mining companies would install passive repeaters just like the reflectors near your camp ground atop ridges preventing line of sight communications. My personal experience is that you can sometimes point Yagi antennas tuned for the very low band mobile phone network frequencies (say 800 MHz) at large, shiny, rock boulders and achieve the same results and pretty decent data rates, out in the Australian bush. Beats the hassle of installing something (illegally) on adjoining public land!
Looking at that spectrum analysis, a 9:1 unun will work better, I tried a 4:1 and got the same analysis, I had forgotten that a 4:1 transformer is for coax fed loop, if you use ladder line your at 450, 460 ohm at the feed, so you need a 9:1 unun transformer, just three wire turns on the ferrite core, instead of 2, I don't even use a tuner. 0 sweet on all bands, zero losses, try it next time
@@n7edwedmondswoodwayarc738 Glad to help, and lol I just realized that you did the salmon run on the west coast, I did the east coast salmon run on the salmon river up in Polaski NY coming off of Lake Ontario 👍 Great fishing, good luck and 73's
Good stuff. This was going to be my next attempt at a low noise antenna for urban apartment deployment. The comments back it up. I am currently running the DX Commander 12.4 Signature vertical and a 130 foot EFHW with Vhameleon Hybrid Mini as my two antennas. The vertical transmits better, but the wore receives better, at least on the low bands.
I'm interested doing one of these in my backyard... I will only be able to get it up 28-30' at most. Would i be better of going with an EFHW or an OCFD???
Hi Scott. I use an endfed halfwave at home (40 meter band ~ 67' with 49:1 transformer) It does a decent job of getting me on 40, 20, 15, and 10 meter bands with only a single support. If you have room and supports to put up a full wave loop you may experience some interesting gain in some directions. Not to mention potential lower noise pickup. Best of luck with the antenna! - Ed N7PHY
Whaaaat..you stole the information and pictures? That isn't fair at all... H I! I love Wire Antennas and always willing and ready to try out a new configuration to setup. Keep up the Good Work. 73's de Your FRiend Uncle Guenter from the German Frontier
Greetings Uncle Guenter! Yes, I confess the data is from smarter hams than me. Hopefully that was conveyed and credit properly given in the presentation. I have not yet built the 160 meter loop as mentioned but hope to give it a try in 2022. Thank you for checking in from the German frontier! 73 - N7PHY
@@n7edwedmondswoodwayarc738 This is going to be a beast of a loop antenna then. Yes I know you mean, the same here on me I am having so much stuff going on in my head that I want to realize and getting done. Just one thing at the time, little by little we going to make it. Happy veterans day & stay healthy. 73's de Your Friend Uncle Guenter
Stainless should have poor radiation characteristics. In practice it doesn't make any difference to performance. I have tried both copper and Stainless full wave 80m loops and equal performance. A lot of marine antennas are Stainless for corrosion reasons.
So I'm on a hill, would the loop be parallel with the ground? Or actually level horizontally? Said another way, would it be ~50' off the ground at each corner? Or would it be 50' off the ground at at least 1 corner, but greater than 50' at the low point in my yard? I think that it's supposed to be level horizontally.
Hi Greg. My understanding is the antenna should be level, equal height at each corner, and over level ground to take advantage of the radiation patterns displayed. That said, my installation was on a hillside, not on a perfect plane, and not shaped equally on all sides. On 80 meters it seemed to do equally well in all directions, which makes sense since it's a bubble of RF pointing mostly upward. On the harmonics the antenna did really well in some directions and less well in others. I'll be using it again in a few weeks for the Washington state QSO part (Salmon Run) and may report back if it works well. Thanks - Ed N7PHY
Wonderful material and well presented. I enjoyed this video very much. Thank you for posting.
I use a 265 foot rectangle, corner feed, 4:1 balun , 450 ohm ladder line 20 feet up on metal poles. I have worked the world with this, out performs my 2 element 20 meter beam, verticals and long wire.
Just what I have put it up 25 years ago when my tower and beam blew down. And never have had to do any maintenance on it. Only thing I have added this year is an amp. Love it.
Essentially what I did... It's just a length of wire in a loop-ish shape, fed with 450 Ohm.. Forget about resonance, don't need it, and start operating. The disadvantage is these antenna can be temperamental, but when they are dialed in, they are wonderful.
Note that the current distribution was for a full wave loop. On harmonics it gets more complicated.
A dipole over real ground has about 6 or 8dBi of gain. Two straight dipoles fed in phase has gain that depends on the spacing. With only quarter wave spacing that is pretty small. Bending the ends of the dipoles reduces that to like maybe only 1 dB over a single dipole. On higher harmonics it will have more gain but also more nulls. I have after many years ended up with multiple dipoles, one broadside to Europe, one broadside to South America and one East/West. I can frequently see one or more S-unit improvement as I switch between the antennas!
@@dandypoint It's been my experience nulls are not as pronounced as they are portrayed to be.
@@davidc5027 it all depends on the particular antenna and height above ground. In my case having a second 10 meter dipole at 40 feet sure made a big difference. Stations I could not hear off the end of one were two S units or so better on the other one. Having the second dipole on South America to fill in the null on the first dipole, which was pointed generally on Europe made a huge difference to me. I ended up putting up a third 10 meter dipole East/West for last years 10 meter contest. Had a good bit of overlap in the pattern. Probably just two would have been good enough if I could get them at right angles. This year I have now added a second and third 20 meter dipole for the DX contest. The East one is doing great into Africa and KH6 direction compared to my single NW/SW direction. However the nulls on a relatively low 20 meter dipole are not as deep as on the 10 meter dipole as the 20 is only half as high as the 10 for the same height in feet above ground. But it is was still worth my effort and I am pretty satisfied.
Great material, thanks for sharing. It inspired me to investigate the radiation patterns of the horizontal full wave loop. Will come out with the video soon...
Very nice presentation and interesting to see. Thanks all! 👍📻⚡️
Well I watched this video 2 years ago and finally got my loop put up. Here is how I calculated my loop. Bought 1000' of wire, buddy wanted 250', and I strung up the rest! Made kind of a diamond shape up at 30-50 feet fed from a corner with 600 ohm ladder line. Works better than anyone on these websites and studies led me to believe. Works good from 160-10 with my balanced tuner. Only run 100 watts. On 20 meters lots of times I only need to run 5 watts to break pileups. Yes there are probably nulls on transmit but I really don't think so on receive. I can hear what seems like everything which is a good and bad thing at times! 73
Fantastic. That is a lot of wire you have up in the air. I was wondering how a really large loop would respond. Sounds like you are experiencing great results. I imagine there nulls and peaks, especially on the upper bands, but you can't argue with the results. Well done! - Ed N7PHY
@@12ppoundtest Yes sometimes my other antennas outperform the loop on 17-10 meters, but not always. On 160, I can have QSO's with stations 4 states away with 100 watts. I was told with my signal on 160 all I would need is 300-500 watts to really break through during tough conditions. One other notable thing about big loops is that they are not as quiet as is generally reported. When A/Bed with my 218' endfed L, the 160-20m signals usually (almost always) have a better SNR on the loop. 17-10m can vary a bit on what is better. In my limited experience a "quiet" antenna is one that isn't receiving very well! 73 DE KF0BBU
I have used a full wave 80m loop fed with a 2:1 current balun at the feed and RG214 coax to the rig and it is an outstanding performer. I did have open wire line for a while but when it broke I switched to balun and coax. No difference. Also when the copper wire on the loop eventually broke I went to thin Stainless cable. After some adjustments it worked great. Cheers VK5LB
I used a 144 ft loop with the "Q" section of 75 Ohm coax transfromer and 50 Ohm Coax feed to the shack. Low SWR across 40M amd high angle for strong signals out to around 500 miles, averaged 2 S units better than a halfwave dipole at the same height above ground. Have plenty of antennas for the other bands. 73...K8JD
Great video! I'm gathering all the materials to do a horizontal loop, covert, in the woods, hopefully no one will see it! It's kind of my last option now, but hopefully it will be the solution!
If you use thin wire, it will be very difficult to see.
i've tried this loop skywire, it works very good
Salmon run 2020, cool I was there also, hopefully will be there this year again!!! I did the same antenna setup at home. full wave delta, fed at the end, fed with homemade ladder line, about 460 ohm, except whith a 9:1 transformer and I get 0 ohms all across the bands, 👍 N3WUB
I use a 264 ft rectangular loop, height at each of the 4 corners varies, I worked 50+ countries on SSB this past winter alone, using any/all bands. Only need the external antenna tuner on 40 and 17 meters, others load up easily. Loops are great but take a load of experimentation.
Thanks for sharing that video Ed. I'm in the beginning stages of designing/installing a Full Wave Loop of my own. As you, I have wanted to try one of these for years....and have just recently gained access to enough space to make it happen. 73 from a former Woodway Sr. High School Alumni......the old Woodway Sr. High that is no longer. 73 de Chris WA7RAR
I've used a full wave horizontal loop cut for approximately 40m. Antenna elements were connected to 450ohm ladder line, into my shack, ladder line into a 4:1 voltage balun, then into an LDG IT-100 then into my IC-718. It worked really well, was more quiet than a vertical, enabled some great DX as well as good regional (200-300mi) comms. I'm getting ready to put up another one that I intend to connect directly at the feedpoint of the loop to the antenna lug and ground lug of an Icom AH-3 remote tuner, then a short coax run into my IC-718. I'm curious if anyone else feeds their horizontal loop this way...
The answer is still 42. Because the original question wasn’t a number question.
Back in the late 1960s, in Australia, and probably because it was expensive building, powering and maintaining remote UHF or VHF repeaters, government organisations and mining companies would install passive repeaters just like the reflectors near your camp ground atop ridges preventing line of sight communications.
My personal experience is that you can sometimes point Yagi antennas tuned for the very low band mobile phone network frequencies (say 800 MHz) at large, shiny, rock boulders and achieve the same results and pretty decent data rates, out in the Australian bush. Beats the hassle of installing something (illegally) on adjoining public land!
I have always heard that loops tune up all the band going higher in frequency. It is Dipoles that get every other. I could be wrong.
Excellent! Ty!
Looking at that spectrum analysis, a 9:1 unun will work better, I tried a 4:1 and got the same analysis, I had forgotten that a 4:1 transformer is for coax fed loop, if you use ladder line your at 450, 460 ohm at the feed, so you need a 9:1 unun transformer, just three wire turns on the ferrite core, instead of 2, I don't even use a tuner. 0 sweet on all bands, zero losses, try it next time
Thanks for the intel Peter. I'll experiment with the 9:1 and 4:1 transformers next time out and report back.
@@n7edwedmondswoodwayarc738 Glad to help, and lol I just realized that you did the salmon run on the west coast, I did the east coast salmon run on the salmon river up in Polaski NY coming off of Lake Ontario 👍 Great fishing, good luck and 73's
Good stuff. This was going to be my next attempt at a low noise antenna for urban apartment deployment. The comments back it up.
I am currently running the DX Commander 12.4 Signature vertical and a 130 foot EFHW with Vhameleon Hybrid Mini as my two antennas. The vertical transmits better, but the wore receives better, at least on the low bands.
I'm interested doing one of these in my backyard...
I will only be able to get it up 28-30' at most.
Would i be better of going with an EFHW or an OCFD???
Hi Scott. I use an endfed halfwave at home (40 meter band ~ 67' with 49:1 transformer) It does a decent job of getting me on 40, 20, 15, and 10 meter bands with only a single support. If you have room and supports to put up a full wave loop you may experience some interesting gain in some directions. Not to mention potential lower noise pickup. Best of luck with the antenna! - Ed N7PHY
Would 300 ohm ladder line work ? I ask because that’s what I have on hand .
My understanding is that it would work fine. Haven't tried it yet myself. Let us know if you give it a try.
Whaaaat..you stole the information and pictures? That isn't fair at all... H I! I love Wire Antennas and always willing and ready to try out a new configuration to setup. Keep up the Good Work. 73's de Your FRiend Uncle Guenter from the German Frontier
Greetings Uncle Guenter! Yes, I confess the data is from smarter hams than me. Hopefully that was conveyed and credit properly given in the presentation. I have not yet built the 160 meter loop as mentioned but hope to give it a try in 2022. Thank you for checking in from the German frontier! 73 - N7PHY
@@n7edwedmondswoodwayarc738 This is going to be a beast of a loop antenna then. Yes I know you mean, the same here on me I am having so much stuff going on in my head that I want to realize and getting done. Just one thing at the time, little by little we going to make it. Happy veterans day & stay healthy. 73's de Your Friend Uncle Guenter
Switch the copper antenna wire for 316 stainless, it'll drop the SWR even more.
Stainless wire is higher resistance and more lossy than copper, will lower the performance!
Copper clad steel seems like a good choice.
@@danford7532 FT8 18,000km on 40m @ 10W, 17,000km on 15m, and 15,000km on 10m says it's just fine.
Stainless should have poor radiation characteristics. In practice it doesn't make any difference to performance. I have tried both copper and Stainless full wave 80m loops and equal performance. A lot of marine antennas are Stainless for corrosion reasons.
@@danford7532
Does that mean my mobile, quarter wave stainless steel whip would be better if it were copper clad?
So I'm on a hill, would the loop be parallel with the ground? Or actually level horizontally? Said another way, would it be ~50' off the ground at each corner? Or would it be 50' off the ground at at least 1 corner, but greater than 50' at the low point in my yard? I think that it's supposed to be level horizontally.
Hi Greg. My understanding is the antenna should be level, equal height at each corner, and over level ground to take advantage of the radiation patterns displayed. That said, my installation was on a hillside, not on a perfect plane, and not shaped equally on all sides. On 80 meters it seemed to do equally well in all directions, which makes sense since it's a bubble of RF pointing mostly upward. On the harmonics the antenna did really well in some directions and less well in others. I'll be using it again in a few weeks for the Washington state QSO part (Salmon Run) and may report back if it works well. Thanks - Ed N7PHY