Modern Metro Systems Where You’d Least Expect! | Airport People Movers
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- Опубліковано 21 сер 2024
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I spend a lot of my time on this channel talking about the wonderful modern metros of cities like Copenhagen, but what might surprise you is that very similar systems can be found right in the United States, but perhaps in the last place you'd expect.
Special thanks to Josh Hirschfeld & Toronto Transit Channel (@Token_Nerd ) for providing the footage used in this video!
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Ever wondered why your city's transit just doesn't seem quite up to snuff? RMTransit is here to answer that, and help you open your eyes to all of the different public transportation systems around the world!
Reece (the RM in RMTransit) is an urbanist and public transport critic residing in Toronto, Canada, with the goal of helping the world become more connected through metros, trams, buses, high-speed trains, and all other transport modes.
A few people are mentioning unions, remember that Canada and Europe also have robust unions, and even more people get to be members because the transit systems are much bigger!
It's not about unions, it's 100% machine politics and incompetence. Big city politics in the US states that infrastructure is a tool used to buy votes, not improve the city. This is why our costs are so high and our outcomes are so bad. The US has extreamly disfuncional politics right now and it's horrifying to watch
As others have mentioned. The Unions have to approve the project before it is built, the Union approving driverless vehicles would be a vote to be unemployed and is extremely unlikely to happen
We need a social change in the US before we can do something like this in municipal and regional transit systems. The unions here have no choice but to preserve jobs on trains, because its the only way to preserve the livelihoods of their members. As long as employment is the only route to basic survival in the US the route we're going will remain the correct one. That's the difference between unions' decisions here and in Europe.
@@leftwing831 it's easier do handle unions with an all new line than to convert an existing one. Paris has managed it with the notoriously militant French Unions so it can be done
Unions can be and are an issue in Europe though, particularly when they, not infrequently, regard transit and public services as a job creation scheme run solely for their benefit, and not an actual service for use by the public. TfL has had a policy for years of setting up to move the system -except actual trams, buses and similar- over to total automated operation at some future point, simply because of the unions' habit of holding London to ransom every time they can. At one point TfL had a complete moratorium on hiring new tube drivers for several years, I don't know if that's still in effect.
In a shocking reversal of his historic opinion, Reese is advocating for more frequent transit using automated skytrain type light metros.
Yeah a job killer. He doesn't know how Union proud the U.S is.
Yes, completely out of the blue here
@@RMTransit I do think they are the best form of transit for dense, mixed use and missing middle type communities, which in turn are the best type of city planning. Particularly working alongside trans to offer longer distances intercity service.
The Docklands Light Railway is an automated skytrain type light metro, and he has said mostly good things about it.
@@katrinabryce I believe you're missing the joke.
This is a masterclass dismantling of the American psychology around transit. Your deep understanding of this topic really shines in this one.
Was recently at JFK and Orlando airports. Both have automated people movers with platform screens doors. Crazy that we can't imagine building this anywhere else.
Airports tend to have a smaller population of NIMBYs.
@@bubbledoubletrouble
There are dozens of airports in the US with people movers that also have NIMBYs, so please provide sources to support your claim. I guess it’s just your opinion rather than fact.
@@AlphaGeekgirl The fact is not so much NIMY's but airports usually are a closed route on their property. There they can do whatever system they want.
Where this falls apart is when you need some kind of rail service to the airport. Many of these places run through arears that need new right of way. Try doing that in NYC. They had perfectly good line that was closed decades ago. There was a push to reactivate it and extend it. Basically running from Brooklyn through Queens and the Bronx. That got killed for making an park out of it like the high line. It's these backward ideas that's holding much of this up.
@@AlphaGeekgirl If you can find a counterexample to my assertion that no US airport has any permanent residential housing on the runways, terminals, or other port facilities, I will readily state that I was wrong.
The funny thing is that the JFK Airtrain literally uses the same technology as the Vancouver Skytrain. So they literally built a light metro system for their airport people mover.
I think Phoenix's tram is kind of an example of how things can go wrong, given on a per mile basis it cost as much as the REM in Montreal which is entirely grade separated.
Apples to oranges. Building anything on airport land will cost a premium compared to building the same project anywhere else especially if that anywhere else reuses a ton of existing railway ROWs.
@@alexhaowenwong6122 Phoenix's tram goes around the airport, not on or under it, unlike the REM which does go under Montreal's airport, and the part of the REM that's on an old existing rail ROW was less then a third of the network.
You're right that Montreal is getting more bang for the buck, but you also have to remember Phoenix has way more roads and bridge build specifically to interfere with interurban rail. You can't get people to switch to a worst mode of transportation unless they believe it is an improvement and what better way to make it an improvement by comparison than to devalue and destroy the competition (we have all herd of when GM bought and ripped out most of the streetcars tracks, but the reason they were able to do that is after lobbying cars were allowed to drive directly on the tracks significantly slowing the frequincy and reliability of urban rail, makeing people belive it is outdated form of technology that needed to change, when all that has chages was now someone was trying to and succeeded at cripple its service) If you're interested in the history of land use abuse by the US government I would recommend watching Strong Towns and Urban3 founders video on the evolution of local land tax in the US it is actually a lot more interesting then you would imagine and explains a lot of why thing are the way they are.
@@alexhaowenwong6122 to be fair a large portion of the REM is on new right of way and it’s not like Phoenix couldn’t have found right of ways to work with!
@@alexhaowenwong6122 REally? Land acquisition costs potentially zero, no NIMBYS and the whole environment can be designed from scratch to include the guideway. stations and yard.
In my opinion, in the US and Canada, its not the transportation but the destinations (stations). Most stations aren't worth going to, there is nothing there usually but a parking lot. If you're going to drive to a station, might as well just drive to your desired location.
Exclusionary zoning and parking requirements pretty much makes a city sprawl horizontally which makes places to go more spread out, inconvenient to walk, and makes car travel necessary. Low density = low frequency of coincidental destinations = inefficient public transport.
It wasn't that way years ago. You'd have rail lines that had terminal right in the heart of town. You know what happened? The car and the freight lines closing those routes. Oh the stations are still there and some are quite well maintained. There's just no train for it.
I will agree though they're not making the new stops convenient for anyone other than parking lots. One example. They opened up a new modern station as part of a redevelopment of an old manufacturing plant. Said plant sit between two towns. Where they put the current development it has Apartment complexes, Townhomes and some shopping. Eventually baseball fields and the like. Where they made the station you basically are looking at a half hour to 45 minute walk through the industrial park with no proper path. Oh if you have a car there's a beautiful parking lot attached to it. This is the kind of thinking we have here in the states, not much.
The hardest thing in creating good transit is to make officials work together and select the best options.
Its funny you bring up the Copenhagen metro. I am Danish and lived many years in Copenhagen, now moved to Seoul which has the best network and cleanest stations I've used (also I speak korean so that helps compared to tourists), but the trains stop at midnight, whereas Copenhagen is 24/7 and really frequent... Here I feel like im forced to plan around that stop/start period, whereas I never had to worry about time in Copenhagen.
Lmao sitting around in hongdae for an hour or two after a night at the club is a part of the Seoul experience 😂
@@cheef825 I did it just last Sunday. I live in Gangnam so dont really wanna spend 20k more after already wasting all my money on alcohol
@@cheef825 Heard from a Japanese UA-camr that meanwhile in Japan, many people spend the night in karaoke clubs to wait for the next day's 1st train if they miss the last one for the day, since renting a room in such clubs is cheaper than capsule hotels
@@lzh4950 yeah we do that too, PC bang also clutch
I think a video dedicated to Disney World transit would be interesting... monorails, Sky Liners, boats, trams, buses (3rd largest bus fleet in Florida), MinnieVan ride sharing... even the People Mover, functional steam locomotives and the Main Street horse and carriage and double-decker bus.
Edit: @Reese if you ever decide to do this video, I know some Disney transportation experts who would probably be open to doing something together on this.
I think the system is overvalued, but I agree it would be worth a video, particularly in a comparison video.
Soon they'll have a connection to brightline. Covering the funding might be neat.
The People Mover doesn't really count since it's just a ride whose only station is its ride entrance. But it is an impressive network they have connecting the different resorts, parks and attractions.
@@ZontarDow It was meant to be a technology demonstrator, showing a 1960s vision of what future transit could look like
@@ccudmore Yeah but it's one that sort of failed since it requires everything be level, and was such a maintenance issue that the one in DisneyLand had its magnets replaced by motorised wheels. The only similar system ever built outside of it was the one connecting Congress to the auxiliary offices.
I think the coolest new "transportation" system at Disney World (and Disneyland) is the first ship you get on when riding Rise of the Resistance. The reactions from guests that aren't prepared for the standard theme park preshow / line to be turned on its head is amazingly hilarious to watch.
Growing up in Atlanta I always joked how great the Plane Train is at ATL (Platform screen doors, super clean, super frequent, automated, dislike the rubber tires tho) vs the actual subway MARTA (trains old AF, regular platforms, headways of up to 20 min sometimes, never clean). It's funny too because I'll be at the airport with "anti-transit" people and they'll love the Plane Train and I'm like "This is what all our transit could be like if we funded it right 😭"
I blame the evil tyrant Kevin Leonpacher.
One thing about the Phoenix light rail, it usually runs every 10-15 minutes but is at decreased capacity because of construction. That’s why it is 20 minutes rn
Have you ever thought of looking at urban rail transit in Africa? A number countries have light rail and metro. South Africa , Egypt, Ethiopia, etc… Would be interested in your take on the matter!
I saw China building light rail in Addis Ababa. I heard they are planning to build a high speed rail in northern Africa. Interesting!!!
This video really goes hand in hand with CityNerd's video on lifestyle centers. It is intriguing how very suburban places have more mixed-use development and better transit than some of North America's heavy hitters like Houston, and less remarkable places like London😐.
Yep it really is astounding, Houston for example doesn't even have night buses!
Good video, as an ATLien I think about this every time I go to the airport and compare Marta to the plane train. Its just hard to understand why we haven't taken the plane train experience and applied it in other places, especially since the city owns and operates the airport.
Pittsburgh PATs failure (SKYBUS) is every airport's success.
I thought the state took over the airport a few years ago.
@@colormedubious4747 The light rail in Denver mostly has elevated stations and tracks, with long pedestrian wallets to get to the stations. And as Reese says, running at grade, especially in the CBD, creates conflicts and delays. And costs for drivers that lead to low frequency that negate any convenience benefit. I think that he made the argument well for grade separated automation and high frequency, low cost, over the expensive but inconvenient at grade worst of all worlds.
@@timothylolley6302 nope but they tried
I actually like our metro system in Atl. Would be cool if they expanded it tho
The more videos you do on US systems the more I want to see a video on Cleveland. It’s the last place people likely think about for mass transit. Yet, it has one line, similar to Ottawa’s current system but it runs to the airport completely grade separated end to end. You can get an all day pass for $5 and it has an LRT line with branches. Plus they have priority lights for regular busses. Even if not worthy of a video I think you’d enjoy doing research on it. I can see it now though, most under appreciated metro system in the most under appreciated American city. Nonetheless, keep the great videos coming!
The infrastructure exists in Cleveland, unfortunately the service is horrible and the rail rolling stock is well past its useful life. So the results is an under utilized system that is under constant budget constraints.
agreed on both of those fronts - cleveland is a sleeper even in the midwest/great lakes. i think it's got the best bones outside of chicago
@@cmbakerxx that's a shame to hear and to be honest I've never been on it. It shouldn't surprise me though as I know the city proper is half the population it was at its peak and is subject to the usual rust belt restraints but I think because I'm just an optimist at heart I only see its potential.
@@cmbakerxx agency has been on a death spiral since 2004. No help from the state or county government and declining youth tax base. We had local circulators, downtown Muni buses, express bus, flyer bus, lsurburban buses and Rail trains ever 6 mins and services to Cleveland Browns Staduim. We now have no rail to the staduim since 2020 and don’t know when the bridge will be replaced and all the services I mentioned is basically non existent. Coach buses are gone besides 1 route . Rail every 20 minutes. Green line shut down at 9 p even during events. Rail cars need replacement for both platform fleets. It’s a sad sad to look at it
I think you're missing the land right of way problem. No one will file a NEQA suit or similar for an airport people mover, and they're basically immune to NIMBYism. That's why they can get built!
But that sort of implies that what transit agencies build today is immune to lawsuits etc, which isn’t true!
@@RMTransit I mean the other way around, airport transit is immune (or pretty close) to lawsuits aiming to stop it getting built. That sort of harassment may be why Phoenix went for road right of way, which makes light rail much easier than a grade seperated system.
I just connected through O'Hare and used the ATS system to get from Terminal 5 to Terminal 1. Automated, rubber tires, platform doors... *chef's kiss*
rubber tires may be smoother, but i could do without the air pollution they produce
@@winterwatson6811 is it worse than iron dust from steel wheels on rails?
By law in the US, any application for federal subsidy of metropolitan transit must be pre-approved by the local transit unions. That means there can not be automated trains without operators. Airport systems are paid for from a different pocket, and (as far as I know) do not suffer from the same disability. As for Phoenix, the builders of the very expensive system were mostly voters with influence, the users are mostly not voters and have no influence. The political purpose of the system (which was to attract federal funds to subsidize the construction industry) was fulfilled when it was built. Operation is optional. The tiny operators union doesn't have enough importance to improve frequency of service.
Then how does Miami operate the Metromover downtown? Or how does Detroit operate the peoplemover as shown in the video?
@@highway2heaven91 I feel that they'd get the same issue if they actually comprised a backbone of their city transit
Prior to fairly recently, there was a Federal law that prevented mass transit from directly servicing airports. This is why there’s the “airport train” that you have to transfer to, instead of a one seat ride like almost everywhere else on the planet. I wasn’t able to figure out the reason for this law.
@@joermnyc Are you certain about that? Cleveland installed rapid transit service into the terminal in the 1960s and Chicago has had L service to O'Hare since 1983 and service to Midway since 1993, all directly to the airport with no connection needed.
I was in Phoenix and could get around the whole area- Phoenix, Tempe, Scottsdale- pretty easily but 20 minute wait is true. It’s very spread out most places and that’s probably a challenge for transit.
WMATA used to use, and will supposedly again soon, an automated system for operating trains. It still requires an operator to be behind the controls of every train. So you get the benefit of automation but without the cost savings on personnel. As some others have pointed out in comments, US Labor Unions have some pretty big control over these actions that don't affect airport systems. Airports also have dedicated funding lacking in most major metro areas by comparison for installing train systems.
Finally, IAD still has to use the people movers for certain areas of its terminals and for international passengers being taken to customs.
1:52 “even tho the Disney parks…” shows universal
Morgantown, WV has had an automated people mover since 1975. Larger US cities with higher budgets should have no excuses.
The Detroit People Mover runs every 3-5 minutes with 99% reliability. It only goes around downtown, but then again it's a downtown people mover. It does a pretty good job of what it was meant to do, and people do ride it. I'm surprised to see it brought up in this video when it was literally created by a federal program that was seeking to apply what was accomplished with airport people movers to urban environments. It's sort of half way between airport people mover and light metro.
Makes me wonder how much it would cost to automate our traditional metros. LA's subway would be a good candidate for trying this. Maybe Chicago too since it's not too large but deals with a variety of weather conditions
Some lines in Chicago maybe could (I’d say maybe the red line?). Some of the El lines cross each other which may inhibit automation. There are also a few grade crossings across the CTA network
It really depends but even large scale systems are ripe for automation these days as we see with the likes of the Montreal REM being built right now, and Copenhagen S train which will become automated in a decade or so.
As of the US, its a bit hard to know where to start, but something like DC's Red line would be a good place to start since its relatively modern and isolated, making it a solid testing ground. LA's Red and Purple lines could work, but in most other cases there's either too much interlining or too much interaction with on street traffic like level crossings for it to be an easy conversion.
They could always ask RATP for a consultancy job on existing line's switch to full automation without daily closure.
RATP is quite experienced with that, it has transformed 2 of Paris' busiest lines while maintaining them in operations 19 hours a day.
los angeles building trams will be revealed as a poor decision when they add tod and the trams get swamped
LA doesn't have a subway, it has metro lines that are occasionally underground - and then through much of their line are littered with at-grade crossings, so automation would not be ideal - that said, level of service is already quite good on most LA metro lines.
This is a really great point. You wonder why the thinking isn't transferable from people-movers to metros. Maybe a short automated system seems affordable, whereas a long one seems wasteful? It doesn't make sense.
Our expectations of US rapid transit are so low that even having platform screen doors would amaze me
You’re right, I read in another comment from someone who seemed amazed, and I was scratching my head because it’s normal everywhere else in the (developing 😝) world
The ‘Plane Train’ in Atlanta is incredible and I believe it’s the best transit line in the US.
I blame the evil tyrant Kevin Leonpacher.
Thank you Reece. San Diego is proposing an APM (not cable pulled but self propelled) connecting airport to Downtown. They realized building a Trolley branch to the airport would only dilute frequencies off a trunk line that will only explode in demand given $10B+ in TOD being built along the main Trolley routes (before including Downtown TOD).
Is it going to be rejected and not built?
@@GenericUrbanism It will be built almost for sure if they come up with enough funding.
Regarding Phoenix's rail, I totally see where you're coming from on its flaws, but I would argue it's actually taken a couple (modest) steps to pull some parts of the city near the center closer together, and make popular commutes a little more manageable for riders. When you look at Phoenix, it's almost a special case for its sheer size and land area scale. It's just gonna take a much more concerted effort to get great service there than in other more dense cities.
Also, as of 2022, service has returned to a 15-min frequency and running through 1 a.m.
When I looked at the schedule, that wasn’t what it said, good to hear that if it’s true, though
Don’t forget the every 20 minute Tempe Streetcar. Phoenix’s system is expanding 😍
@@grahamturner2640 Not entirely a "tempe" thing, There is a reason why they renamed it from Tempe Streetcar to Valley Metro streetcar. That being said, it gets stuck in traffic, and they should have just built a regular light rail, or pedestrianized Mill Ave.
As someone from honolulu...I was shocked that someone actually talked about HART on a transit channel lol.
And the cost of the HART and the fact that it won't make it to your regional shopping mall. I agree the HART should be covered more regularly.
Honolulu HART is doing something that mainland U.S. transit agencies aren't and that is platform screen doors, hence the mention in this video. U.S. rail projects are very costly as it is compared to similar projects outside the U.S. I remember when NYC MTA proposed the Second Avenue Subway, they proposed to have platform screen doors, but that option was quickly removed as project costs rose. I've been following the HART project, even though it will nicely serve Daniel K. Inouye Int'l Airport (HNL) without an APM, it'll miss lots of trip generators like Ala Moana Center (mall), UH Manoa (Hawaii's flagship university), & Waikiki (a major tourist destination). Many of those were in the original plans from a few decades ago, only to slowly get removed as project costs rose.
@@Gunter909 Not entirely true. The plan is still to get to Ala Moana with a later extension.
I blame the evil tyrant Pavos Prevedorous.
came here from nebula to say great essay, reece. i know that trolls be trolls, but it’s pretty funny to see their comments here on a video where you talk up an area of american transit expertise. i don’t know if they’re bots or just not that bright
either way, i am a big fan of automated metros, but i don’t want anything to do with rubber tired systems and their air pollution, especially underground. take care!
Woohoo Lille. Loved their subway system when I lived there.
God I hope HART turns out to be an inspiration for the rest of the country. It's utterly maddening to see city after city throw the same low-floor LRVs at every problem, build them dedicated transitways, and then run them 4 times an hour. It's so dispiriting to drive around Portland and see MAX tracks empty all the time.
I have no hope for metro systems in this country. Politicians here refuse to build metro systems because of hart.
Totally agree with everything you said here. For example, here in Detroit at Metro Airport's McNamara Terminal, there is a perfectly modern-standard automated people mover running along the terminal's concourse to get people to the far gates quickly. If we can have this technology in our airports, then what's stopping us from implementing it in our cities?
I’m shocked
Thoughts on the Miami Metromover? Its a free APM serving the downtown area. An example of APM outside of airport setting.
I live in Phoenix AZ and just rode the airport people mover (PHX Sky Train) extension that JUST OPENED TODAY! I was pleased how fast you can now get from Terminal 4 to the consolidated rental car facility in just 8 minutes. I have been meticulously watching as construction over the last 5 years. The shuttle buses that it replaced were much slower and frequently maxed out causing riders to wait for the next shuttle. A future west terminal is planned and yet the APM will at some point run four car trains. Thank you very much for this video and Toronto Transit channel for the stock footage.
Wonder if Orlando is getting any additional people movers between the baggage claims & the new Brightline at bare minimum or eventually directly to the rental car place opposite FL-528…
The plane train in Atlanta is actually the busiest airport people mover in the world! In a city with crumbling public transit we really oughta learn something from this.
MARTA on the whole is certainly inadequate and undersized for the amount of people in the region. However, I am optimistic that in terms of rail we are heading in the right direction. We have a new set of amazing trains coming in the near future (check out the VR walkthrough MARTA posted literally today), every station can now have 6-8 car trains (once Bankhead's upgrades are finished), and TODs are popping up at so many of the stations. I believe that MARTA's rail system is more future-proof than most people think, and we have arguably the best airport connection in the US (with the busiest airport in the world). As for expansion it doesn't seem likely that we get more heavy rail anytime soon, but light rail projects such as the Clifton corridor and the Streetcar extension to and along the Beltline would be great (if they ever got built). As for the bus network, they are cutting some of the lines that are the least used and focusing more on the more popular lines, which makes sense (unless you are one of the few people that use the least used lines). There are BRT projects such as Summerhill and Clayton County that would be able to serve a lot of people.
The problem with Atlanta is that urban sprawl is pretty unorganized. Other than sending the Red & Orange due south into Clayton County, anywhere else is full of suburbia with no good way of determining which dense area is worth spending that billion dollars to build a rail line
4:58
Reece: every 20 minutes
Screenshot: every 5 minutes
Screwed up this screenshot 😥 see the one at 5:51
Very good point! Covid has really brought the staffing shortage to light. And all this time many people were thinking that it was just about schedule frequency are car maintenance. However, if you have a shortage of people to drive your trains, everything else... Goes out the window.
The frequency on Valley Metro Rail is actually relatively inconsistent and ranges between 12-20 minutes according to Valley Metro. Also the PHX SkyTrain can operate at a frequency of as often as every 2 minutes at peak periods
Some of the busiest systems in the world run 20 minute frequencies on the weekend this was deliberately misleading from him
@@leftwing831 maybe on an outer branch line sure, but on the main city center trunk line??
@@leftwing831 I am from Phoenix, trains can come as little as 8 minutes to as much as 20. But during peak times it is usually around 10-15 mins. Streetcar is every 20, and streetcar wasn't even mentioned at all.
In the US it's never a problem of ability. It is always a problem of will, concessions, and inertia. Our democratic institutions and agency structures are often more about equally representing places than people. It is a problem for urbanism because a city is one place with a lot of people while everywhere else is everywhere else and has fewer people. So who ends up winning? Airports are closed, planned, locations where everything is infrastructure, and everyone who at least has a little money uses it. There's less area to contend with and less people to have a say to block it, and all those everywhere else's with a lot of people feel more invested.
What would be an interesting video is exploring funding and governance structures for successfu and growing vs floundering transit systems and how those structures impact success and planning. Like maybe compare LA Metro to SEPTA.
I got subscribed last week. We, in deep South America, have modern metro Systems, too. The new lines in Santiago and São Paulo systems are example and the new Ligh Rail in Rio de Janeiro.
Yep! I have a video on Santiago!
I give you a lot of credit, Reece: you make a compelling argument for rapid transit, but you DO realize that this is the U.S., right? There is no political will to build grade-separated metro systems. I'd use a light rail system if it ran with frequency and avoided vehicular traffic because at least that would be trying to keep travel modes separated. Car-centric cities that build light rail systems that run in mixed traffic seems like a waste to me, but that's the only middle ground that can be achieved when cars get so much priority, transit (in Sun Belt cities especially) has a poverty stigma attached to it, and no one wants to pay for it. Anyway, good video. 👍
AirTrain JFK is very similar to SkyTrain and I’ve taken it to fly out to LA and to do a photo shoot at the TWA hotel. Sure it costs a premium (was $7.75, now $8 one way) and it doesn’t connect to the city center but it does the job when I take it from Jamaica station (I take the LIRR using the $5 CityTicket over the subway since its faster). The Port Authority wants to replace the AirTrain in Newark with a JFK-style rail system (currently a monorail but it’ll take long b/c they’re in the process of building new terminals to replace outdated ones from the 70’s and would rather build a new people mover when the new terminals are complete) and they tried to build one in LaGuardia but the alignment was at the worst possible way and is currently in the planning phase again. Personally I think it should connect to Astoria, Willets Point, and Jamaica plus allow a LaGuardia to JFK AirTrain route for riders and workers.
Also, you mentioned about platform extensions on Airport people mover but not on urban rail systems, The Path is extending their platforms to allow more train cars on their trains.
The original plan was to have the Air Train got from LGA to Jamaica then to JFK but the NIMBY's killed that idea. The latest one is to extend the Astoria MTA elevated to LGA with 2 stations in the airport.
@@drakeil Now that I didn’t know, but still it should be suggested on top of the N/W extension to LGA.
The newest light rail line in Guadalajara Mexico is impressive, clean, and efficient. Skytrain outside the core but runs underground within the urban core. Inexpensive, also.
Unions in the US would likely push back heavily if a line was retrofitted to use automated trains, as that would mean operators are meaningless, and would complain, rightly or wrongly, about safety being an issue with automated trains. When I say safety, that could be crime, that could also be the passengers if the automated trains malfunction, and other issues that could fall under safety. If a transit agency pushes through with getting rid of operators, then strikes across their whole network are inevitable. It’s for different reasons, but look at the power the RMT has in the UK
If we can automate Teslas, we can automate trains which are significantly simpler. Unions should not be able to block progress.
@@AaronSmith-sx4ez But drivers aren’t unions. That’s a false equivalence
Then how does the Miami metromover or Detroit peoplemover exist?
@@highway2heaven91 Because that was the technology that was used. The consortium that sold that tech to Toronto for Line 3 also sold it to Detroit. Detroit still barely has a public transit system, so when there is no one to p*** off, you’re gravy. Metromover did come after Metrorail, so either the union there was weak, or there wasn’t a union. SEPTA’s workers keep striking because SEPTA can be an idiot sometimes, so imagine taking away the union’s power by decreasing it’s membership by automating the BSL and MFL. That strike would go on for probably 3 months. Couple that with this happening during CBA negotiations, and you get a stoppage on the whole network. Amtrak may be fine
I was glad that he mentioned HART in Honolulu since it fulfills a lot of the positive transit attributes that he’s advocating.
The key reason we in the US are able build airport people movers that are better than some transit systems is because of how they are funded. US airport infrastructure is funded by a per passenger tax on flights. A metro train will have funding from various local, state and federal taxes. This is also the reason the JFK airport areo train is built the way it it.
I think a rubber tyred system probably makes some sense if you want a 24hr service, as it moves maintenance onto the vehicles, which is simpler to manage whilst maintaining service.
Remember that "America" is not just the U.S. America is North America, Central America, and South America. It would have been nice to see more on San Juan, Santo Domingo, Panama City etc.
Yes. I thought this guy was from Canada. He should know better!
Facts!
Yes! I'd like to see more about South America, most big cities here have important metro systems Buenos Aires, Rio, Sao Pablo, Santiago, Bogota, etc
Most of the internet uses continent naming models where there is no continent named "America", but two separate continents named "North America" and "South America". When they're referenced together they're called "the Americas". Just plain "America" is short for the "United States of America" in the same way that "Germany" is short for "The Federal Republic of Germany".
So for most of the internet, including Canada, there is literally no continent named "America". So there's no conflict or confusion in calling the US America.
@@Jasoncw87 So Central America and the Caribbean don't exist? I believe the Caribbean is where Columbus first landed when he "discovered" the continent of "America", no? And, no, it's not like calling "Germany" short for "The Federal Republic of Germany". It would be more like making "Africa" short for "South Africa". The point here is that America is much larger than the U.S. But hey, we're talking about a country that calls the winner of the NBA Finals, The Superbowl and, the World Series, "Word Champions", so it's par for the course.
Highly interesting! Let me add one remark: it's great that you take a positive approach to the problem and point at possible (actually, obvious) solutions, rather than sticking to some sterile US bashing. Kudos for your positive mindset!
9:55 it is again, after briefly losing its spot in 2020, it became the busiest airport again in the year 2021.
I think that this time your premise is flawed.
The problem in the US is not experience in building mas transit system but getting approval and funds to build it. The people that build those systems know how it should work but do not have the resources to do it and no airport APM will change that.
Airport APM are good for what they're used for, moving people to connect s a small number of points with short distances and in an airport it's required for it's operation so cost is not an issue and they use their profits to ensure they keep making them.
The cost of Huston airport APM was about 400M, spread over quite a few years and not adjusted for inflation so for a 1.1km length it costed about 400M. LAX new APM is about 3.6km and the cost is 2B so about 550M per km. No public authority in the US will get even a fraction of this budget and they cannot build such a system with what they have. The people that build this try to get heir foot in the door with what they have hoping that once they start they will be able to improve and expand it later.
This is not a great strategy but in mot places in the US it's the only one. As long as large investments are politically toxic there won't be good mas transit systems in the US. Maybe the younger generation will change it, if they won't change their mind by the time they'll actually start voting in elections but for now the only option if the foot in the door one.
This video both makes me sad and gives me hope.
Can't really find a flaw with your arguments.
And as for Phoenix...
That airport people mover's new western end station at the car rental terminal is bad planning. Ought to have been built to facilitate the line being extended on so that that end of the line could also link up with the LRT. The planned north-south LRT. That way both the east-west LRT line and the north-south LRT line would have direct interchanges with the APM.
I think it would be awesome to see you talk about the Boston T and the commuter rail, despite being one of the oldest transit systems it's really not kept up that well, but there's still so much incredible stuff to the rails I use every day!
This was a fascinating video, many thanks for raising so many excellent points. Plenty of food for thought, in America's car-obsessed culture.
Car-obsesed public policy.....Americans behave just like Europeans in Europe and visa versa. Europeans drive cars when they are in the U.S. They would rarely do anything else simply because of the lack of alternatives. The US government takes our taxes and borrows money for highways, not rail. The public has never been given the power to vote down highways, but that has been the case for public transportation, education, eyc..
The dulles people mover is really nice and tidy and it looks really good
So many videos, sweet!
And more to come happy holidays!
I agree that almost all future Metro systems should be driverless, totally separated right of ways to traffic that way the two don’t affect each other. What I would offer to make sure drivers don’t get nervous is give them six months worth of severance pay or a job as a controller in the control centre.
Hey, watched this on Nebula but came here to post a comment.
Three things.
1. Valley Metro is adding an extension on Center Street south of DT Phoenix which will break the long tram line into two lines in 2024. A North-South Line and a East-West Line.
2. Frequency is back to every 15 minutes now, was 20 minutes because of ridership numbers.
3. I ride Valley Metro every day, and every day the trains are delayed. It's quite obvious to me that trains are delayed as a mix of sitting in traffic and the shear length of the line. Hopefully we can improve the times with two lines and better light priority.
I think you are missing a major aspect that cities in the US and Canada in general are built very differently that Europe's. It is much more difficult to create the ridership required in a typical NA city to be able to sustain the transit frequency and service level. Yes, we can do that in the airports only because there is high density of passengers that needs to be moved around in very liner, predictable patterns. Not so in the urban settings. Cars are still by far the most efficient and comfortable way to travel in NA. Efficient public transit cannot be built alone without consideration of our urban settings.
Yay you mentioned my city! And yes, lmao, it is one super long light rail line. Honestly, it works for us! I love our light rail, but do I wish it was a metro? Yes.
hey, i don't know if you ever came to Portugal but basically we have two major metropolitan areas, Lisbon and Porto, and both have a metro system, Lisbon has a underground metro and Porto has a elevated metro (?) It still looks like a ligh rail or tram to me but wtv. anyways, maybe you could make a video comparing underground metro vs overground metro and what pros and cons they both have
In Portugal a lot of people say the Porto's Metro is better because it was cheaper to build and covers a bigger area than Lisbon's Metro, I personally prefer the underground but I'm curious about your thoughts
Miami Metromover is a great example of an effective people mover system that works better than the city's heavy rail (Metrorail).
My Airport here in Pittsburgh is losing it's people mover as it is downsizing, It is quite sad, I loved the people mover, but soon instead of going through security and taking the people mover, now once you are through security you will be at the Terminal. Which I guess is better for a smaller airport
Sad story!
There's some irony in that making the case for the "guiding example" of airport trams, this video focuses on what I (and perhaps others) think is the worst airport tram in the US.
The PHX SkyTrain serves no purpose for most passengers. It connects terminals pre-security, but PHX is laid out in such a way that few if any passengers will be connecting between terminals. It also doesn't (yet) connect to the rental car center, which is where most people from out of town need to go (given the metro area's setup and structure.) The track has been laid and the stations built, but the extension to the rental car center has been "in testing" for the better part of the year. This has been a huge tease, because the bus to the PHX rental car center is unequivocally the second worst rental car bus in the country (after DFW.) It's crowded, there isn't enough service, and it's a long drive from T4 (which carries the bulk of PHX's traffic.) Aside from the yet to open rental car extension, and besides connecting terminals land-side, which has no utility for 95% of passengers, the PHX airport tram also connects to an economy parking garage (yay!) and--as mentioned in the video--the light rail system, which also as mentioned, is slow and unreliable.
I'd enjoy a mini series on airport trams. Better systems to focus on in the US would be Tampa (the first,) Dallas (the largest, I think, and very useful,) and Atlanta (the busiest, and also very useful.) The Atlanta PlaneTrain has a lot in common, arguably, with Paris Metro Line 1. Stations are a similar distance, trains are rubber tire, and they are both automated. It would also be interesting to compare the different airport tram systems that populate the world--i.e. Bombardier APM vs. Mitsubishi Crystal Mover vs. VAL.
Newark AirTrain kinda feels like a themepark ride, and you’ll probably be at 2-3 transfers to get anywhere in the tri-state. That being said, at least it has one (unlike LGA), and connecting to the Northeast corridor is a massive plus.
2:20 Riverline Light Rail Camden to Trenton, NJ began on Sunday 2004 March 14. Insanely packed inaugural ride.
The every 20 minute light rail in Phoenix is on weekends only. Weekday trains run every 15. And for the 13 or so years of operation prior to COVID they ran every 12 minutes. I wish 5-train-per hour service would return, but this is still the best service in a city where even major arterial roads have only hourly bus service.
If you check on the video those trains that were supposedly 15 minutes apart for all seven minutes late, so effectively they are 20 minutes apart 😂
It's definitely unions. It an airport builds a people mover, it is starting from scratch-a new agency with no existing union.
If a city already has a metro, then that union will block it being automated.
If a city is building a brand new rail line, chances are the organization tasked to do so is the local bus company-and the bus drivers already have a union and will block it being automated.
You also fail to mention how US metro systems are either designed to fail, or are heavily influenced by the mindset that poor/urban/POC will be the only ones using said transit in a vast majority of cities
I think that often the problem is the local authorities. The U.S still prioritizes Cars over public transport and doesn't seem to be really interested in good public transport.
It’s strange how Americans are so worried about budget and project values, but at the same time don’t look the return they don’t get when they don’t do transit right.
I live in São Paulo and we had a huge problem building monorails, it basically it’s being built since 2011 and it doesn’t end. So what did the government do? Give up on every future project of monorail and focusing in subways, which we have the experience and it’s a success with the population.
Why US cities don’t do the same? Acknowledge your mistake and try to fix it.
Excellent video. I hope you become the transit czar of Canada and the US!
Elephant in the room: Airport transit is "acceptable" to upper middle class and upper-class white-collar professional riders who largely live in car-centric suburban subdivisions of endless McMansions, the type of people who would usually turn their noses up at buses, trains and other forms of mass transit. They like the small-scale, limited-use novelty of these people mover systems in airports or large amusement parks, just not in everyday use. Transit systems in the United States are deeply associated with urban ills, with crowded, dirty trains filled with creepy people and an air of violence or mayhem just around the corner. Americans may complain about urban traffic but really don't want to remedy it, just escape it.
American middle class and upper middle class aren't any different from the middle class people of other countries, and most denser urban areas would absolutely be able to get high ridership rates...if the system were useful!
But show me a single American city with a comprehensive, reliable transit system that can take you anywhere without sacrificing your quality of life..and you'll show me Manhattan. Because it's the only place with transit useful to the average person. And shocker, the average person living in Manhattan takes the subway, whether they're poor, rich, or middle class.
Middle class people don't take transit because it sucks and they can afford cars, not because they're all a bunch of stuck up professionals who only like trains when they're a novelty. That kind of generalization isn't helpful
Great video and as someone who grew up in NYC I love riding the AirTrain at JFK. It’s probably the gold standard of what a modern metro could and should look like in New York. Makes me think they should use similar SkyTrain technology should the Interborough Express ever gets built, particularly since there are several tunnels that make up the Bay Ridge Branch ROW that are apparently too narrow to accommodate large main line LIRR style trains. The project would then need smaller IRT subway style rolling stock like what you see on the PATH train system or even the Blue Line in Boston. A smaller automated light metro might be the most ideal system to deploy. And the only place where you can find such an example of this in NYC IS the AirTrain at Kennedy.
Prior to fairly recently (around the time the LaGuardia airport train was paused) there was a bewildering Federal law preventing mass transit from directly serving airports. (A one seat ride was illegal!) This is why there’s all these Airport People Movers that have to connect to the rest of the transit system somewhere off of the airport property. (Seattle-Tacoma was able to get around this by building the station just outside of the property line (or maybe they bought that narrow strip of property from the airport authority?), it’s a pretty long walk to the terminal (through the parking structure).
There is an inherent bias against public transit in the US which is often viewed as infrastructure that’s used by the poor and the lower classes who can’t afford to drive. Airport and Disney park people movers don’t have that stigma as the ability to actually access them requires a certain level of income.
Yep, theres definitely a discussion to be had there!
Great new video!
Which one is shown at 12:16 ? ATL Airport ?
And the last at 13:22 ?
You're right, there are so many use cases possible for light automated metro in US cities instead of poor service LRT.
Having a tremendous capacity in ridership increase, running every 6 or 8 minutes at first then increasing frequency up to a minute and a few seconds if needed plus adding more cars to the train fleet.
Not *if* needed but *when* needed, as good and reliable service will create demand and attract riders like syrup attracts bees.
It "only" requires a bit of vista while designing the network. That's easy to say, I know, but one can sometimes expect the needs of the public to be answered by the local authorities.
I just wanna say there's nothing wrong with an airport train going to a rental car facility. Local traffic at any airport is always congestedand removing shuttles from the mix is a benefit. Most importantly however is that not everyone at a given airport is visiting just the city. For example, specifically for Phoenix, many people will drive north to the Grand Canyon, Sedona, etc where other transit options are not practically available. Nor would anyone reasonably expect a robust transit solution to these far off areas.
I think we should sometimes remember that in any country there are places where a train or bus does not go simply due to low demand, low population, or geographical challenges. Rental car facilities only seem bad if one only thinks of them as serving the city they are in, rather than the wider region airports often in reality support.
I was looking for a comment like this because I was about to say the same thing; I live in the Phoenix area and can attest the SkyTrain has really reduced the congestion on Sky Harbor boulevard just from the rental car shuttles alone!
My local airport’s transit isn’t that great, but all the same, it kind of punches above its weight within the city. This is PDX. Buses on the lower roadway operate frequent service to the economy parking lots. There is just a single terminal with underground moving walkways through the local garages, rental space, and employee offices, and more moving walkways along the concourses. There is a light rail connection nearby the ticketing and baggage claim areas, large elevators (and in the tall parking garages, many smaller elevators per bank) and high-capacity escalators within the terminal. The light rail is even receiving service improvements soon and upgrades to double track throughout are under construction. Meanwhile the line near my house has been struggling with a severe local operator shortage, limiting its frequency and reliability.
Make this guy go viral please
When Charlotte put in their first Light Rail system, once it was running for about 1/2 year, they announced "It is more expensive to operate than we thought. We have to cancel under performing bus lines." --- So the light rail killed bus service for some of the areas north of the Downtown area. Then they built a couple of additional lines. The first was a street car line that went from a college on the west side to the location where Independence Mall used to be. (A failed mall that had gun fights inside to drive all the customers and vendors away.) So, figuring out why you need a line to an open field? Gang populations there will have to get eliminated to make that line popular... Then there is the new line heading North out of the Downtown area. They COULD have gone as far as the Charlotte Motor Speedway, which would have been a superb park and ride, and offer service when racing is going on... Rather than that, they decided to stop at the local university on that side of the city...where 90-95% of the students live within walking distance. Sorta like what happened on the original line. I asked why they didn't run it over to the two mammoth malls in Pineville? That would be "Too Expensive" -- They COULD have run the track down the median of the interstate there... Less than 2 miles from the 485 "inside the belt line" station. As luck would have it, they never went to downtown Pineville because the city saw the 3rd bump in estimated costs, and decided to drop out of the project. (I could do about a 20 minute routine on CATS and their estimates on the first line... Going from $190 million for 13 miles to almost a billion for 8.5 or whatever was a bit of a bait and switch on the part of the transit agency. I also asked about automated operation, and they said No! "We won't go there." "That would need a means to keep people and animals away from the track We can't do that"
Charlotte moment. God American transit agencies are so stupid.
In America, big city politics are stuck in machine era policy. Large infrastructure projects are not about improving the city, it's about giving out jobs as a strategy to win votes.
It's the most painful reality of being a democrat in a major metro area.
Ultimately, there is a certain philosophy which ruins North American public urban transportation: Car centrism. Many Europeans have rejected the car centric philosophy of the US and if car centrism is implemented in Europe, it isn't as extreme as on the other side of the Atlantic. Public transportation is mostly (seen as) a welfare for the poor since you're expected to travel with a car not just outside but also within a city, rail projects thus often end up being a vanity project.
The only way to justify good public transportation is when the car is just plain not possible and airports fill in these condition: They can be very often huge, rivaling hole towns and neighbourhoods (especially when there are multiple terminals and runways), there are masses of humans and you can't bring a car with you if you want to travel in the air, it has stay to on the ground, thus discouraging car travel. Airport transportation thus must be practical, now a mere bragging right.
You've completely ignored the elephant in the room here! Airport people movers are so, so much shorter than actual transit systems! Even the biggest ones at places like DFW and ATL are like 5 stops and extremely close together. It's a lot easier to move people half a mile than it is to create a sprawling network of light rail.
I agree
I just flew out of Toronto Pearson for the first time, and holy crap I was amazed that the airport train connected with the value lots AND connected with GO Transit to downtown. I have never seen a line connect to the value lots and I have flown out of maybe 100 different airports (even at JFK you have to get off the subway and then take a connecting line to the airport)
I have family north of Ottawa, I fly into Pearson, jump right on the UP Express down to Union Station, get on VIA, train to Ottawa. The UP Express is fantastic. Naturally I’ve been on the airport people mover, but with as many airports as I’ve used, they’re all fairly similar, I can’t say I can tell one from another, save Heathrow’s, which if I recall correctly (I was a mere flea last time I was there) was actually a Tube that stopped at each terminal.
Only airports that stand out are Charlotte’s (I don’t even think it has one, whole place is a ruddy mess), LAX’s (curbside bus, thanks a bunch) and Dulles’ planemates (certainly handy).
Atlanta is a very busy airport and many people hate it but I don't care how crowded an airport is as long as I can move from gate to gate or terminal in an efficient manner and the airport train is quite the efficient people mover. Walking around Heathrow, Las Vegas and JFK weren't good experiences although those were many years ago.
The problem with creating a Modern Metro System outside of airports is that Airports usually don’t have to deal with crime, homelessness, NIMBY’s and the car-centric mentality that dominates most of America. They also don’t have to deal with government regulations or corporations. They kind of had to build modern metros because Airports were one scenario that they couldn’t find a way to shoehorn cars into.
Also, at least car renters can think about the convenience of trains while they’re riding to the car rental lot 👍
Airports are like train stations, the car industry tried to shoehorn their way into them, and failed miserably. Though unfortunately airports have a lot of parking built as well....if only we can get rid of those and force people to take transit into the airport.
Wow! Phoenix has a lot of sore spots that feel familiar to Portland. Our lack of operators put a damper on their new BRT-esque line on Division (as well as everywhere else). The BRT line was finished at a time where operators were at an all time low! Anyone attempting to use transit right now to get to work has to deal with Max trains occasionally just not coming, with seemingly no warning. Buses are routinely tens of minutes late, and it makes the entire process incredibly frustrating.
When I moved to the greater metro area and out of the city proper I gave up and bought a car. :/
Another interesting example is the new Luton airport (LTN) peoplemover (the DART), to take people from the nearest train station (Luton Airport Parkway, fast trains to London and some other destinations, Thameslink and East Midlands Rail, quicker than Stansted express from STN) to the airport complex, via the mid-stay car park. There is a cost (although can be included in rail fare), but the airport also charges a drop off/pick up fee at the terminal and a flag-drop supplement (enhanced starting fare) for taxis (free pickup/dropoff at the midstay carpark with several times per hour shuttle bus)
Peoplemover will be replacing a several times per hour shuttle bus (articulated, one of the now rare uses of articulated in the UK, generally no longer used in UK city centres due to some cycling fatalities on bendy routes and fare evasion due to insufficiently enforced Proof of Payment approaches)
Dopplemayer cable hauled (and the route is quite long and windy for the technology). Sadly opening delayed due to some technical issues, and there has been cost overruns, should have been electric rather than cable hauled in my opinion.
There is also another similar cable hauled mover at Birmingham (UK) International airport (BHX), connecting express trains at Birmingham International station (not city centre) and the co-located Exhibition Centre (one of the biggest exhibition spaces in the UK). This used to be maglev (one of the first, if not the first) but that was aged and became too expensive to maintain and the cheapest replacement was cable hauled.
Yes, people movers are great, and Phoenix and Oakland and others have done some really good work on them. But I don't think you've shown that these technologies are scalable to full urban rail systems. In Seattle, the airport people mover runs at 40km/h and maxes out at a capacity of 100 people per train, and this is wonderful and fine because the system is so small (7 stops total) and journey times are 3 minutes or less. They would absolutely not be comfortable for urban rail writ large. By contrast, on the Seattle area's Link system, 1 Line trains run at 90km/h and can carry up to 1,000 per train with 90% grade separation, performing very well even after accounting for the limitations and deficiencies inherent in choosing non-automated LRT as the prevailing technology. Interlining will soon double that capacity and frequency to 4 minutes at the shared 13 stations on the 1 and future 2 Lines, with 8-minute service on the branches. It's not amazing frequency by global standards, sure, but I do feel like you cherry picked a bit by using Valley Metro weekend headways as your chosen counterexample.
Taipei has an extensive rubber-tired metro system using the exact same driverless metro technologies as airport people movers. Wenhu line trains travel at 90km/h and carry 140,000 passengers daily, using the same Innovia APM vehicles as O'Hare airport.
At least in LA, the problem is they didn't want to spend money on grade separation in the city core so there's a ton of at grade crossings. I do wonder if the modern self driving AI tech can enable automation even on at grade crossings. It should still be an order of magnitude simpler than self driving for regular cars.
Loving all the great content over Christmas!
Great video!👍💯 Thanks for reminding me how flawed & dysfunctional the Muni Metro System is where I live in San Francisco.
To come to think of it, the best transit system in the San Francisco Bay Area is the *Airtrain System at SFO Airport.* Man just realizing that makes me so sad & depressed 😔
American airport authorities are cash cows. In a sense, their “transit systems” are self financed in that fees, not taxes, are used to build them. That makes building good transit within their area easy.
Love this take! I am a frequent air traveler and love seeing how different airports solve their passenger movement issues with APMs.
I want to stress that 'gadgetbahn' doesn't necessarily mean vendor lock in! At my home airport, Orlando International, the original Westinghouse C100 Airside 1 and Airside 3 APMs were replaced in the last few years...with Crystal Movers! And at more competitive cost over 7 years than Bombardier's proposal, which did not include any guideway changes.
Never knew there were that many modern metros!
@Zaydan Alfariz Oh, so like the vancouver Skytrain.
Indeed, there’s one at almost every major airport!
@Zaydan Alfariz Jakarta has an MRT line too, using Japanese trains
Your ending summarizes well why we ended up with so many trams/light rail even when studies prove that a light metro would have almost the same cost.
It's super ironic that these airports are walkable places that treat transit as a first class mode of transport, and yet no one thinks that transit can work in the US.