Don't Let This KILL Your Tone

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  • Опубліковано 10 лис 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 61

  • @franknguitars7671
    @franknguitars7671 Рік тому +3

    Nice video thanks! And nice playing on the Outro too.
    I got very used to playing modelers into my studio monitors via an Apollo Interface with a Neve Preamp Unison plugin. Love it. By now I prefer that over an actual amp in the room.
    Lately, for live use, i go pedalboard (with Hx Stomp or Strymon Iridium) into Radial Stereo DI and from there with XLR cables into an Apollo Twin running a Neve 1073-Studer Tape-LA-2A. That signal goes to FOH. Also gives ne a convenient Master volume for the entire setup. It is basically a studio recording setup on stage. Still more compact and lighter than an actual amp.

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому

      Thanks for watching and for the compliment! Sounds like a sweet setup! Love the studio chain you have on the back end.

  • @DanielMabuggwe
    @DanielMabuggwe Місяць тому

    Brother you have answered the question I've had to the last 2 years. Thank you so much

  • @yvesvanderhaeghen196
    @yvesvanderhaeghen196 Рік тому +1

    Hello,
    I also have a Presonus SL32 series III, and I always have all line level gear connected via unbalanced TRS, microphones via XLR. Presonus clearly states this in their manual, but I'm not sure this is a general thing among console brands. To me this makes a lot of sense because as phantom power is (or should) never be send over TRS connectors it protects connected gear that cannot handle this 48 V (this is mentioned further in the comments). The reason for this is that a TRS connector is possibly shorted when inserting it, while this is not the case for XLR connectors. The downside is that you need a lot more different types of cables as the outputs of many devices do not necessary adhere to this strategy. SO: XLR - XLR for microphones, XLR - TRS for devices that only have XLR outputs (line level) and do not need (and like) phantom power, and TRS - TRS cables for line level devices that adhere to the 'presonus' strategy. Possible you need some other combinations for the outputs (XLR have male and female connectors which increases combinations), e.g. to headphone amps for monitoring in the studio. I would say I prefer XLR-XLR for console outputs especially to powered speakers and such, for the same 'shorting on insert' reasons ...
    Good stuff.

  • @eanroad
    @eanroad Рік тому +1

    Dude, thank you so much! I was going crazy trying to see where the problem was with my FM9 Turbo and RME Fire face UCX II. Problem are the TRS cables, oui! Time to get some XLR cables

  • @deltafit
    @deltafit Рік тому +2

    Dude...thank you so much for this! I literally cannot believe the difference. I'm using TRS cables from my FM9 into our desk and was wondering if I was compromising my tone. That worry has now gone! Thanks again!

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому +1

      Absolutely! Glad it was helpful.

  • @BrettFunkGuitar
    @BrettFunkGuitar Рік тому +2

    Excellent Video!
    Great information. I would never have even thought of this, and I've been mixing, mastering, and running live sound for nearly 40 years.
    Oh man. This is like someone dropping a bombshell that changes your world view. Which of course rarely happens. But this just did. Thanks, I think... lol
    ARG!!! You've made my clean rig questionable. I've been contemplating workarounds.
    I only use modelers now. And I'm running 100% Mogami for my entire signal chain. This is gonna cost me over $200.00 to keep it pure Mogami, and that's assuming that the TRS inputs on my mixer actually bypass the preamp.
    For FOH I'm currently using a QSC Touchmix 16, and the manual says this about the TRS inputs (which I'm currently not using at all).
    "Balanced female XLR and 1/4” TRS combo inputs (13-16). The TRS connectors supply a +10dB pad."
    I'm not certain how the +10dB pad is created, what method... I also don't think I can turn off the internal preamps on the XLR inputs.
    Searching the PDF manual, the word preamp is not used once. What the fish?
    The spec sheet, (not the manual) says this, " TouchMix leads the pack among all small mixers, with professional-grade, class-A microphone preamps, top-quality converters and meticulous attention to design detail throughout the entire signal path."
    Crap!!! It's a conundrum. I guess it's time for a call to QSC.

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому +1

      Kinda blew my mind when I first tried this too! You could try to get short XLR female to TRS cables to quickly swap the ends of the Mogami and see what the difference is. I’m not sure why this seems to be something live sound companies leave out or gloss over especially when more and more instruments are going direct at line level. Stepping down in a DI box and bringing the mic level back up with the pres seems so unnecessary when the signal is already at an ideal level. A lot of mixers also say their inputs can accept line level signals (X32) through the mic pres but it may still color the sound. Aux ins are a good workaround for this though.

  • @picksalot1
    @picksalot1 Рік тому +1

    This is one of the most surprising and important sound comparisons I've heard. Usually, tone hunting involves small improvements, but this is huge and could be the source of many complaints regarding why the venue sound sucks and is so different from what guitarists are hearing at home. Great work. I haven't heard anyone else mention the significance and consequences of the TRS vs XLR Mixer Mic Preamp connection signal chain. 👍😎

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому

      Thanks for watching. Yep, this video was a result of "learning the hard way" after dealing with the things you mentioned. I still get some blank stares from sound techs when I tell them I'm sending line level. Not a knock on them but just an observation. It's interesting that so much of live music in modern times is running direct and mics are becoming more and more rare on a stage (most are down to just drums and vocals) and some mixer companies are still churning out 32 channel mixers with only mic level ins and fewer aux line ins.

  • @davidinnc1498
    @davidinnc1498 Рік тому +1

    Agree - I can't believe I have never heard about this before. Important information even for recording into DAWs. I don't believe this is even addressed in the manuals. Thank you.

  • @jaykuchera5058
    @jaykuchera5058 Рік тому +2

    Questions-1. On Mackey/Behringer/Midas, plugging a TLR into the input Jack will bypass the mic preamp and go directly to the channel trim preamp or gain? For the individual signal flow, is there a separate mic preamp followed downstream by a digital channel preamp i.e. in series? 2. if going into the board with XLR, could you not just turn the trim down so that the overall PFL for the combination mic preamp plus channel/digital preamp would be the same as signal path without the mic preamp? 3. Bottom line is you recommend going TLR into any board as a default approach? Pardon if you covered this and I missed it. Very interesting and relevant discussion thank you.

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому

      Thanks for the comment! I've emailed you a response.

  • @Allthewrongkeys821
    @Allthewrongkeys821 Рік тому +2

    Additionally, many mixers will allow phantom power only through xlr ports and not trs. So using trs is a good way to protect your outboard gear from potentially getting fried. I’ve read that +48v is a non issue for the Axe FX III and some other gear. But I still avoid it at all costs.

  • @Respecttheriff
    @Respecttheriff Рік тому +1

    This is interesting. I use the Kemper which supports XLR outputs to our FOH. The Kemper output section must be pretty loud, because when I first got it 3 years ago and was researching proper setup, most folks have the output level at about -17 and an additional -10 db cut too activated by a switch in the output section of Kemper. This is the way Michael Britt (Kemper King) uses his to FOH. Anyway, that's what I've always used and the FOH board has about +10 gain on my channel to achieve a good balance on fader. I've never experienced a perceivable problem with sound or quality, but this makes me wonder if I should bring my output volume on the Kemper up and try to eliminate the FOH gain? If I recall, I had issues with clipping when I first got Kemper and before following my above settings, so the Kemper output was probably at 0 then, I just found what worked and didn't question whether the FOH should be adding a little gain... IDK

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому

      -17db sounds like It would be bringing the Kemper output to instrument level and the additional -10db cut is lowering it to get closer to a mic level signal which mic inputs like to see (instrument level is okay as well, but typically lack a balanced signal that mics have). My perspective is why even have the additional +10 of gain from another gain stage when you are cutting -10db: why bring it down just to being it back up. But it sounds like your setup is gained properly for getting a clean signal to the board. If you always use this set up you may not notice anything with a properly gained signal, but a good test would be to unplug from the board and go line level straight into PA powered speakers (usually XLR line ins on powered speakers) and see if there is any difference you notice. For me, I just prefer not to run my modelers into mic preamps- I just don't need them so why include the circuitry into the signal.

  • @wonderlandrecording
    @wonderlandrecording Рік тому +1

    So I watched the entire video but had a question. So for an Allen Heath SQ console would you route your fractal LR OUTPUTS into an ST input? Or would you go XLR > DI > TRS ?

  • @paulbradshawguitar
    @paulbradshawguitar Рік тому +1

    interesting comparison, but seems very gear dependant as you said your Presonus bypasses any preamps with the TRS compared to the XLR
    in most real world/live situations it'll be XLR or DIs to XLR and good communication or setup will be key
    good points in any case for a home setup where this might come into play
    when i was running straight into my interface/plugins, i had much better feel/dynamics/sound by using a better DI (Countryman) before said interface

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому

      Yes. The only thing I don't like about using a DI is the level mismatch- Bringing a line level signal down to mic level then boosting it again at the board seems unnecessary with the proper connections (line-ins or FX inserts). But if things are already patched into mic preamps I'd rather have a DI to avoid mic pre clipping.

  • @jonbigg7385
    @jonbigg7385 Рік тому +2

    Interesting. Would this difference between XLR and TRS also apply when running my Axe 3 into my Line 6 Powercab Plus as well? Or is this strictly when running into a mixing console?

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому +3

      Really only a mixer with mic pres. Powercabs use an XLR line input with no pres in the way so you’re good to go!

  • @joemiller9856
    @joemiller9856 Рік тому +2

    Great Mathew! I wonder if this is happening to me . I run direct into the board via xlr at church from my modeler. What I get back through my in ears sound pretty crappy. I’m going to check and see if they have the mic pre’s up..
    Another question I have is mono versus stereo. Most front of house systems seem to be mono only .. so much of the delays and modulated effects are lost. Any suggestions?

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому +1

      Glad you enjoyed! Yes, very likely the preamps are up. especially if you are getting a gritty gravely distortion. As far as mono goes- I find the simpler the better: simple verb and dotted 1/8th mono delay is all I really use when going mono otherwise things can wash out quite a bit especially in large worship environments.

  • @BobbyCulpepper.srv3fender
    @BobbyCulpepper.srv3fender Рік тому +3

    Well that explains a lot, but not sure there's much I can do about it. Especially when a snake is in use. Not sure mic preamp can be bypassed on most mixers

    • @BrettFunkGuitar
      @BrettFunkGuitar Рік тому +1

      Yes, this! Great point.

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому +1

      When in doubt running the pres at 0 is the way to go but still might have an effect. Other consoles might have more transparent pres than the Presonus XMAX preamps. It’s kind of a gripe of mine that live sound companies don’t address this with a simple “preamp bypass” switch considering how many modern instrument set ups send line level.

    • @BrettFunkGuitar
      @BrettFunkGuitar Рік тому +1

      I couldn't agree more!

    • @BrettFunkGuitar
      @BrettFunkGuitar Рік тому

      I agree completely. I'm going to test my Apollo X6 using the Apollo "preamp in" vs the other XLR inputs with no preamp to see if there are tonal issues there. I'm also going to run my modeler directly to my powered monitors and thru the mixer and see how much the Touchmix is affecting the tone.

  • @primobarile9564
    @primobarile9564 Рік тому +2

    Just curious, did you switch the outputs to see if the difference were the same? Output 1 xlr and 2 trs?

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому +1

      I did! Setting up for the video I though of this. Same result. It just comes down to the board connection.

  • @mickymalibu
    @mickymalibu Рік тому +1

    Just to clarify once again do you recommend going TRS into a mixer ? Also how about the output from a Powercab to mixer , I’m using XLR from powercab to mixer is that ok ?

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому +1

      TRS is usually is the better choice but it all depends how your mixer can bypass its preamps or how transparent the preamps are. XLR in and 0db preamp gain will work most of the time but may color the sound as opposed to “line in” bypassing the mic preamps.

    • @mickymalibu
      @mickymalibu Рік тому +2

      @@mathew_dale interesting, the Helix manual suggests going XLR Helix to mixer hmmm

  • @0928andy
    @0928andy Рік тому

    Thanks a lot! it's very informative! to put it in a nutshell, output 1 is TRS to XLR, output 2 is XLT to XLT. Right?

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому

      Correct, but remember it's on the mixer side where the difference in tone is taking place. If you plug into an FRFR with XLR line ins you'll be totally fine.

  • @JohnMSD
    @JohnMSD Рік тому +1

    So just to be clear, you used TRS for Output 1 (is that the L and R humbuster outputs?) and XLR for Output 2?
    I'm wondering how much this would affect my band or if it really matters at all for us? We mainly play Pop-Punk/Rock and there honestly isn't a ton of dynamics in our songs save for some occasional clean sections in maybe 2-3 songs. (We run two guitars on a single Axe FX 3 and go straight to FOH

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому +2

      No I’m using an XLR to TRS for output 1 and an XLR to XLR for output 2. It’s less about what jack I’m using on the axe and more about how I’m hooking up to a mixer. So I’m using the XLR outs for both out 1 and 2. The only difference is hitting the mic pres in my board because of the boards particular jack set up. Honestly, going through the mic pres is just going to be a reality for most of us because of how most mixers are set up. You typically can’t even bypass the pres on most boards like Yamaha and Midas or Behringer (one of the things I like about my Presonus). As long as the preamp gain is set to 0 things will sound good. Just not the best it “could” be.

    • @JohnMSD
      @JohnMSD Рік тому

      @@mathew_dale Ahh I see, well thank you for explaining that for me! Keep up the great content 🙏

  • @RECTIFIER101
    @RECTIFIER101 Рік тому +2

    What's even more confusing to me is my tonex is instrument level output.. very weak compared to fractal stuff. I first used a 1/4 to 1/4 to the line input on the board and it sounded awesome but had to crank up the board gain and slider gain to be where I needed to be, I then bought a XLR to trs ..trs out of tonex and went to mic input, had way more signal coming to the board but it was a little more fizzy with everything at nominal levels..which to use for instrument level modelers?

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому +4

      This is a good question. With Tonex having unbalanced instrument outs, it’s really designed to be integrated into a pedalboard and using it as a stand-alone becomes difficult because mixing consoles really don’t like instrument level. It’s either mic level or line level. I took a look at the manual and IK says that running direct you should go into a DI box then into a mic input. The Radial stereo DI is a great option. I have one and used it with my GT1000 core when I had one and it worked well. That would be my best bet.

    • @RECTIFIER101
      @RECTIFIER101 Рік тому +1

      @@mathew_dale thanks man, i will try one just to make sure im not missing out on a better tone !

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому +2

      @@RECTIFIER101 Sure thing! Maybe not better tone but would certainly make the levels match better- which might make for a better tone overall. Also, the DI will bring the instrument level to mic so you'll need to gain up the channel pre.

    • @AntonovichHicksenbrau
      @AntonovichHicksenbrau Рік тому +1

      Tech 21 Qstrip - DI/ParaEQ:
      XLR out, 1/4" out, parallel out, pads, boost, hpf/lpf.
      I have one in front, 2 out to feed FOH, DAW, etc,..

  • @curlzwalk
    @curlzwalk Рік тому +1

    Nice!

  • @TexasRoc
    @TexasRoc Місяць тому +1

    Hi, if my amp sim has only TRS - should I get TRS to XLR? Or would this not even help?

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Місяць тому +1

      Depends what you are plugging in to. If your plugging in to a powered speaker with XLR line in then TRS to XLR is great (locking connection). If plugging into a mixer with a mic pre active with an XLR connected (as demonstrated in this video), TRS to TRS would be better for bypassing the mic pre. It's less about the cable and connector and more about how the connectors are being used.

    • @TexasRoc
      @TexasRoc Місяць тому

      @@mathew_dale thank you!!!

  • @MrJingles021
    @MrJingles021 Рік тому +1

    You probably get asked this a lot, but what pick are you using? Or is it some kind of pick clip?

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому

      I’m using the Fred Kelly bumblebee pick. I have a link in the description if you want to check them out!

  • @x3a3x3
    @x3a3x3 Рік тому +1

    Is that the same for all boards or only the presonus? We are using a X32R with a Midas snake

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому +1

      It can vary board to board and brand to brand. I took a gander at the X32 manual. It doesn’t look like you can bypass the mic pres on the xlr ins, but using the DL32 stage box (I’m assuming this is the snake you are referring to) you are using Midas pres which may sound better at 0db gain, but better yet would be using the Aux ins as these would be designed for line level equipment.

    • @x3a3x3
      @x3a3x3 Рік тому +1

      @@mathew_dale thanks for the quick reply! Yea I meant the Midas dl16 stage box. It only has the xlr inputs and I plug the FM9 straight into the inputs. I’ll take a look at the manual and see if I find anything. Thanks for making this video, I never thought that would make a difference!
      By the way have you made a video about FM9 layouts yet?
      Keep up the good work brother!

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому +1

      @@x3a3x3 Thanks so much! Not yet- Still on the waitlist for the FM9 (hopefully soon!)

    • @x3a3x3
      @x3a3x3 Рік тому

      @@mathew_dale In your case you might find having only 9 switches a little limiting since you have the Ax3.. that’s why I was asking about layouts, you can create some compromises and make the switching work. The only problem with all the fancy layouts imho is remembering all the double clicks and things like that when you are playing and singing and cant be looking down at the screen. 12 footswitches really look like the minimum necessary for one press operation on the fm9 / ax3

  • @HermannPeaHo
    @HermannPeaHo Рік тому +1

    Makes me think I need to change my setup. Thank you for the test.

  • @rm_0605
    @rm_0605 Рік тому

    I don't like this video because he did not say which is which. He hid it.

    • @mathew_dale
      @mathew_dale  Рік тому +2

      Watch again and make note of my explanation of signal routing. Every time I switch I say which output is which.