I work in the traffic monitoring industry, and have some familiarity with this technology. Weight detectors exist, most commonly piezo strips that produce a voltage pulse with each wheel, but are usually used when vehicle weights or axle layouts are being monitored. For traffic light signalling this wouldn't normally be needed (perhaps to give buses priority?) An inductive loop is basically a big upside down metal detector. It's wired into a resonant circuit, and as a large electrical conductor (car) approaches the inductive loop induces current in the car, which changes the resonant frequency. This triggers the lights. This makes sense with your results. The magnets won't have the desired effect: the loops don't detect static magnetic fields. The aluminium tape is too narrow. The aluminium foil sheet allows current to flow in a large loop, so works. What you want to achieve is large conductive loop around the bottom of the velomobile. You could use maybe a length of normal house wiring copper wire, joined with an electrical connector to complete the loop. You could use the aluminium tape in a loop too, but you need to make sure that it is connected to itself. Something like this would be nice and light, and tidy. There's no need to power this loop or anything like that. I can't guarantee it would work but you may be interested to try it.
Try making a loop of copper wire as large as possible. Any thin wire should be fine. The amount of electric current will/should be very low, so the wire will/should not melt or even get hot. Lay the loop in the bottom of the velomobile. (Prediction: this orientation will work best.) Also try making the loop vertical by wrapping it around the velomobile from front to back. Finally, wrap a loop around the middle of the velomobile. If the single loop of wire does not trigger the sensor, try multiple loops of a single wire in a coil arrangement. The idea is to capture the maximum amount of energy from the sensor's coil. You may use a frequency meter to be able to measure the frequency of the sensor's current and build a smaller tuned loop to capture enough energy to trigger the system. The amount of metal in a Rotovelo frame is enough to trip every sensor around here so I can't test.
I have a cargo bike that I sometimes use for work. WHEN I DO, I have to carry a printer and some hand held computers... this ALWAYS triggers the sensors that rarely trip when I'm not carrying my equipment. I believe I've narrowed it down to the printer data and power cables which I coil up and keep in the bag. I noticed that sometimes the RFID detector at the exit of stores would go off when I pass through. I tried every item individually and nothing would trigger it by itself. I tried my printer bag through and that did it, but when I carried the printer through without the bag it did not. I never considered the coiled up cables though which were in the bag, because I was looking for an RFID chip that had maybe fallen off a product while I was working. since then, I realized if I ride through the magnetic loop in the center, but at a specific (and slow) speed the wheels will actually trigger it... my wheels are aluminum alloy with steel spokes & spoke-nipples, so it probably will not work with CF
Saukki - Induction sensor works by comparing Oscillations in the Road coil with an Oscillator in the Control box. If they both resonate at same Frequency, No Switching. Using a Coil of Copper Wire, taped to bottom of Your Wonderful machine, as Large as You can, will Detune the Road Coil oscillator, causing a difference in the Two Oscillators, and Make the Switch Happen. The Coil needs to be a Complete Circle or many Circles - A complete (shorted) circuit. Placed in the same Orientation as the Road Coil (Horizontal) and as close as You can (Thus on the Outside/bottom) will maximize the Change in Frequency so it gets Noticed. A Larger Diameter is Better than a Smaller one, and will allow You to offset to one side a bit one way or the other. Place Under the Nose for SOONER Switching. Best Regards, from the Big Ugly Guy, BUG
My internal frame is welded aluminum, so that’s good news. Also, there are a few painted bike lane intersections around that have induction sensors for bikes here. I always assumed they would be adjusted to a more sensitive setting for the smaller mass.
Gotta say before I watch, on my upright I just lower the cassette side of the bike over the sensor, triggers it every time. Used to get stuck near my friend's house all the time on a never ending red light before I read that somewhere. +1 for upright bikes haha. Edit: this was bloody hilarious, cannot believe foil actually works. I would rip that beeper out before I even got back from my first ride on the Milan.
The basic trick of induction loops is that a large enough conductor near the loop picks up some of the energy and re-radiates it. This is received by the loop. The result is a lower loop voltage or a change in resonance frequency. Bernon Aarey's answer is great. Now carbon is quite a good conductor and in itself should be enough to be detectable. Here in the Netherlands at least 95% of the traffic lights (at least on the bicycle lane) detect my carbon velomobile. As you found out, a large sheet of a metalic foil will do, especially in case of fiberglass velomobiles. By the way, it has nothing to do with the skin effect. Skin effect means that an electrical current will flow only on the surface of a conductor, up to a certain skin depth. The higher the frequency, the thinner this current conducting layerwill be.
Is this really a uselless video :-D :-D . Man, you rock. I can't comprehend who you have only 11K subscribers, WTF? Anyway - I love your sense of humor. This helps not only velomobile riders, or recumbent but any pedal powered vehicles. Came here and subscribed (from this account!), as I am having my first velomobile ride in my life in few hours and it turns out to be a Quest! I see you don't sport Quest anymore, but Milan AND(!) Quadrovelo? Anyway - thank you for such an outstanding video and ... in a way ... sorry for not following at all for quite few years now. (can't even figure out on which of my YT accounts did I follow you back years ago.
Thank you for this video! There are a few lights on my commute route that don’t ever change for me. I either have to wait for a car to pull up behind me or go when it’s safe to do so. Unfortunately there’s many times the drivers stop too far back from me and they don’t trigger it for me. With most of them, I try to get them to get closer but they don’t and it’s pretty frustrating.
Die Induktionsschleife der Ampel benötigt eine Metallische, idealerweise Ferromagnetische Fläche von 30x30cm in max 50cm Höhe. Wenn du Stahlblech nimmst geht es am besten. 🤫mein Quest Carbon 462 hat noch einen Aluminium Rahmen und Alufelgen mit Stahlspeichen, ich stehe täglich 2x an leeren Ampeln und es funktioniert super
Translated to English with Google: The induction loop of the traffic light requires a metallic, ideally ferromagnetic surface of 30x30cm at a height of max. 50cm. If you use sheet steel it works best. My Quest Carbon 462 still has an aluminum frame and aluminum rims with steel spokes, I stand at empty traffic lights twice a day and it works great
Hello Saukki, in Germany the sensors in the road are just behind the with stopping line. If you would have made the test in Germany you wouldn't have been on top of the sensor.
Lol at properly set sensors that messes up night of filming! :) Also on the red, with cars on the road, I would never. Some crazies can crash into people on purpose here if you do that...
You could use a long length of copper wire, thin single strand like motors are wound. Tape it in a large coil over the length and width of the underside of the velo, each loop spaced an inch or 2 apart. Run six ir 12 volts through it and a low power light bulb so as to not be a dead short. Best way to trigger an induction coil is with another induction coil- or that's my theory.
Great Video! Anyway: If your method of stacking metal parts into a lightweight vehicle had worked, I would not recommend to do so in an area less flat than yours. You will lose more time uphill than waiting for the next car to trigger the lights.
If aluminum tape works, aluminum screen, or mesh material might also work. Maybe the best of both would be to tape over the screen/mesh with the aluminum tape, after the screen/mesh has been cut to the size and shape that you want.
I only had this problem twice in my city so at one trafficlight i just run a red light. and at the other light i have 2 options. wait for a car or go wait by the cyclist light. but if i have my cycling shoes on i can stick my foot trough the foothole and the metal under my shoe will be detected bij the lights.
Hmm, it looks that I found out yet another way, in which steel-framed trikes are better then velos :-D But hey, at least you are sheltered from rain while waiting for a car, that will eventually release you from red light :-)
It would seem that electrical conductivity is the primary attribute that makes a material detectable by induction sensors, as the eddy currents induced within the material would scale with conductivity. Aluminium is the best electrical conductor there is relative to weight added to the velomobile. You could probably add one kilogram of aluminium and then you would never have any issues with going undetected at intersections. I would be curious whether a solid thick sheet of aluminium (say 0.5 mm thick) would perform better than a series of sheets of aluminium foil packed together.
I wonder if you placed strong enough magnets in recessed pockets on the underside of the velo if that would help trip the sensor, then the problem would be picking up pieces of scrap metal from the road.
Thanks for you effort. But useless. Even my metal cleats must be enough. Mostly traficlights works on bikelanes in the Netherlands. They should be. The can and must adjust induction sensors until the can detect the keys in your pocket or weddingring. If it's not working it's not a induction loop or the technision who has installed it is to laisy or incompetent. If you are enoid, just call the responseble company or road owner. They must respond. If not, complain by a a group with influence. Here it's de fietserbond.
Well I did strugle to find this one set of traffic lights in this city which didn't detect the velomobile. So I have to say that the situation isn't very bad around here 😄
In our area, there are 4 governments to know who to call. State, County, 2 different cities. Then, depending on that government, will they try to adjust that offending sensor. We don't have a bicycle advocacy group than gets behind sweeping bike lanes, traffic lights are considered, learn as you go, deal best as you can. We're "advanced" in this state in that we have a law that allows the rider to run a red light after it cycles one time. Up until only 2 or 3 years ago, we could have been ticketed for that! That's America; and in a community WITH bike lanes AND a local bicycle advocacy community. 🤷♂️ In most of the country, all those factors aren't likely to be in combination.🙁
I work in the traffic monitoring industry, and have some familiarity with this technology. Weight detectors exist, most commonly piezo strips that produce a voltage pulse with each wheel, but are usually used when vehicle weights or axle layouts are being monitored. For traffic light signalling this wouldn't normally be needed (perhaps to give buses priority?)
An inductive loop is basically a big upside down metal detector. It's wired into a resonant circuit, and as a large electrical conductor (car) approaches the inductive loop induces current in the car, which changes the resonant frequency. This triggers the lights. This makes sense with your results. The magnets won't have the desired effect: the loops don't detect static magnetic fields. The aluminium tape is too narrow. The aluminium foil sheet allows current to flow in a large loop, so works. What you want to achieve is large conductive loop around the bottom of the velomobile. You could use maybe a length of normal house wiring copper wire, joined with an electrical connector to complete the loop. You could use the aluminium tape in a loop too, but you need to make sure that it is connected to itself. Something like this would be nice and light, and tidy. There's no need to power this loop or anything like that. I can't guarantee it would work but you may be interested to try it.
I don’t know what kind is used in Sweden. My aluminum recumbent bike and traditional carbon bike don’t trigger the traffic lights.
Try making a loop of copper wire as large as possible. Any thin wire should be fine. The amount of electric current will/should be very low, so the wire will/should not melt or even get hot.
Lay the loop in the bottom of the velomobile. (Prediction: this orientation will work best.)
Also try making the loop vertical by wrapping it around the velomobile from front to back.
Finally, wrap a loop around the middle of the velomobile.
If the single loop of wire does not trigger the sensor, try multiple loops of a single wire in a coil arrangement. The idea is to capture the maximum amount of energy from the sensor's coil.
You may use a frequency meter to be able to measure the frequency of the sensor's current and build a smaller tuned loop to capture enough energy to trigger the system.
The amount of metal in a Rotovelo frame is enough to trip every sensor around here so I can't test.
I have a cargo bike that I sometimes use for work. WHEN I DO, I have to carry a printer and some hand held computers... this ALWAYS triggers the sensors that rarely trip when I'm not carrying my equipment. I believe I've narrowed it down to the printer data and power cables which I coil up and keep in the bag. I noticed that sometimes the RFID detector at the exit of stores would go off when I pass through. I tried every item individually and nothing would trigger it by itself. I tried my printer bag through and that did it, but when I carried the printer through without the bag it did not. I never considered the coiled up cables though which were in the bag, because I was looking for an RFID chip that had maybe fallen off a product while I was working. since then, I realized if I ride through the magnetic loop in the center, but at a specific (and slow) speed the wheels will actually trigger it... my wheels are aluminum alloy with steel spokes & spoke-nipples, so it probably will not work with CF
I looked up "Skin Effect" and found some very dirty movies. Thank you Saukki 👍🏻.
This is why roundabouts are better
True!
Saukki - Induction sensor works by comparing Oscillations in the Road coil with an Oscillator in the Control box. If they both resonate at same Frequency, No Switching. Using a Coil of Copper Wire, taped to bottom of Your Wonderful machine, as Large as You can, will Detune the Road Coil oscillator, causing a difference in the Two Oscillators, and Make the Switch Happen. The Coil needs to be a Complete Circle or many Circles - A complete (shorted) circuit. Placed in the same Orientation as the Road Coil (Horizontal) and as close as You can (Thus on the Outside/bottom) will maximize the Change in Frequency so it gets Noticed. A Larger Diameter is Better than a Smaller one, and will allow You to offset to one side a bit one way or the other. Place Under the Nose for SOONER Switching. Best Regards, from the Big Ugly Guy, BUG
My internal frame is welded aluminum, so that’s good news. Also, there are a few painted bike lane intersections around that have induction sensors for bikes here. I always assumed they would be adjusted to a more sensitive setting for the smaller mass.
This is one of your weirdest (and funniest) video ever, I must admit 😂 Thanks for sharing
Gotta say before I watch, on my upright I just lower the cassette side of the bike over the sensor, triggers it every time. Used to get stuck near my friend's house all the time on a never ending red light before I read that somewhere. +1 for upright bikes haha.
Edit: this was bloody hilarious, cannot believe foil actually works. I would rip that beeper out before I even got back from my first ride on the Milan.
The basic trick of induction loops is that a large enough conductor near the loop picks up some of the energy and re-radiates it. This is received by the loop. The result is a lower loop voltage or a change in resonance frequency. Bernon Aarey's answer is great. Now carbon is quite a good conductor and in itself should be enough to be detectable. Here in the Netherlands at least 95% of the traffic lights (at least on the bicycle lane) detect my carbon velomobile. As you found out, a large sheet of a metalic foil will do, especially in case of fiberglass velomobiles. By the way, it has nothing to do with the skin effect. Skin effect means that an electrical current will flow only on the surface of a conductor, up to a certain skin depth. The higher the frequency, the thinner this current conducting layerwill be.
Is this really a uselless video :-D :-D . Man, you rock. I can't comprehend who you have only 11K subscribers, WTF? Anyway - I love your sense of humor. This helps not only velomobile riders, or recumbent but any pedal powered vehicles. Came here and subscribed (from this account!), as I am having my first velomobile ride in my life in few hours and it turns out to be a Quest! I see you don't sport Quest anymore, but Milan AND(!) Quadrovelo?
Anyway - thank you for such an outstanding video and ... in a way ... sorry for not following at all for quite few years now. (can't even figure out on which of my YT accounts did I follow you back years ago.
Thank you for this video! There are a few lights on my commute route that don’t ever change for me. I either have to wait for a car to pull up behind me or go when it’s safe to do so. Unfortunately there’s many times the drivers stop too far back from me and they don’t trigger it for me. With most of them, I try to get them to get closer but they don’t and it’s pretty frustrating.
Die Induktionsschleife der Ampel benötigt eine Metallische, idealerweise Ferromagnetische Fläche von 30x30cm in max 50cm Höhe. Wenn du Stahlblech nimmst geht es am besten. 🤫mein Quest Carbon 462 hat noch einen Aluminium Rahmen und Alufelgen mit Stahlspeichen, ich stehe täglich 2x an leeren Ampeln und es funktioniert super
Translated to English with Google: The induction loop of the traffic light requires a metallic, ideally ferromagnetic surface of 30x30cm at a height of max. 50cm. If you use sheet steel it works best. My Quest Carbon 462 still has an aluminum frame and aluminum rims with steel spokes, I stand at empty traffic lights twice a day and it works great
Hello Saukki,
in Germany the sensors in the road are just behind the with stopping line. If you would have made the test in Germany you wouldn't have been on top of the sensor.
Lol at properly set sensors that messes up night of filming! :)
Also on the red, with cars on the road, I would never. Some crazies can crash into people on purpose here if you do that...
You could use a long length of copper wire, thin single strand like motors are wound. Tape it in a large coil over the length and width of the underside of the velo, each loop spaced an inch or 2 apart. Run six ir 12 volts through it and a low power light bulb so as to not be a dead short. Best way to trigger an induction coil is with another induction coil- or that's my theory.
Great Video!
Anyway: If your method of stacking metal parts into a lightweight vehicle had worked, I would not recommend to do so in an area less flat than yours. You will lose more time uphill than waiting for the next car to trigger the lights.
Perhaps again another advantage of an Mid Drive Motor ;-)
If aluminum tape works, aluminum screen, or mesh material might also work. Maybe the best of both would be to tape over the screen/mesh with the aluminum tape, after the screen/mesh has been cut to the size and shape that you want.
I only had this problem twice in my city so at one trafficlight i just run a red light. and at the other light i have 2 options. wait for a car or go wait by the cyclist light. but if i have my cycling shoes on i can stick my foot trough the foothole and the metal under my shoe will be detected bij the lights.
Hmm, it looks that I found out yet another way, in which steel-framed trikes are better then velos :-D
But hey, at least you are sheltered from rain while waiting for a car, that will eventually release you from red light :-)
So, you want to say that if magnetic field will be not sufficient you cannot switch green light and must stay before crossroad for ever?
It would seem that electrical conductivity is the primary attribute that makes a material detectable by induction sensors, as the eddy currents induced within the material would scale with conductivity. Aluminium is the best electrical conductor there is relative to weight added to the velomobile. You could probably add one kilogram of aluminium and then you would never have any issues with going undetected at intersections. I would be curious whether a solid thick sheet of aluminium (say 0.5 mm thick) would perform better than a series of sheets of aluminium foil packed together.
I wonder if you placed strong enough magnets in recessed pockets on the underside of the velo if that would help trip the sensor, then the problem would be picking up pieces of scrap metal from the road.
And what is your experience with the QV? I would assume with the large metal rear differential it would trigger the lights pretty well
Too much traffic in Finland = can just about see another car in the distance 😉
True. If I have to wait in intersection for two cars to pass, I call it a traffic jam.
I watched this video.
The foil should increase your interior temperature, on top of the traffic signalling!😉
Im surprised aluminum foil worked but magnets didnt work. Im assuming it needed a bigger contact patch.
I want to continue with you
Thanks for you effort. But useless. Even my metal cleats must be enough. Mostly traficlights works on bikelanes in the Netherlands. They should be. The can and must adjust induction sensors until the can detect the keys in your pocket or weddingring. If it's not working it's not a induction loop or the technision who has installed it is to laisy or incompetent. If you are enoid, just call the responseble company or road owner. They must respond. If not, complain by a a group with influence. Here it's de fietserbond.
Well I did strugle to find this one set of traffic lights in this city which didn't detect the velomobile. So I have to say that the situation isn't very bad around here 😄
In our area, there are 4 governments to know who to call. State, County, 2 different cities. Then, depending on that government, will they try to adjust that offending sensor. We don't have a bicycle advocacy group than gets behind sweeping bike lanes, traffic lights are considered, learn as you go, deal best as you can. We're "advanced" in this state in that we have a law that allows the rider to run a red light after it cycles one time. Up until only 2 or 3 years ago, we could have been ticketed for that! That's America; and in a community WITH bike lanes AND a local bicycle advocacy community. 🤷♂️ In most of the country, all those factors aren't likely to be in combination.🙁
Since I don’t have a velomobile, it never happened to me.
Perhaps metal flake paint will work 😂
😂😂