Everything you know about HiFi subwoofers is... wrong*.
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- Опубліковано 22 сер 2024
- Today's topic: something that only comes along once in a while... subwoofers. Just kidding. It comes up all the time in fact. As with many things, much of what you think you know about subwoofers and extending bass in your room is, well, wrong. Let's tune in to Arian's knowledge base of wave propagation and see how he fixed the issue.
Proximity Bass Controller by Arian Jansen, episode IV.
If you missed part one of the interview series, here is a link:
• Happy new year 2024 + ...
If you missed part two, here is a link:
• Interview series, part...
If you missed part three, here is a link:
• Stereo on Stereoids???...
Enjoy the show and thanks for tuning in!
SonoruS Audio can be found here:
sonorusaudio.com
Order an SHI tape here:
sonorusaudio.c...
Cheers!
#audio #music #recording #stereo #records #subwoofer
Today's topic: something that only comes along once in a while... subwoofers. Just kidding. It comes up all the time in fact. As with many things, much of what you think you know about subwoofers and extending bass in your room is, well, wrong. Let's tune in to Arian's knowledge base of wave propagation and see how he fixed the issue.
Proximity Bass Controller by Arian Jansen, episode IV.
If you missed part one of the interview series, here is a link:
ua-cam.com/video/6owK_upY6Vg/v-deo.html
If you missed part two, here is a link:
ua-cam.com/video/aIY5JLIOn4c/v-deo.html
If you missed part three, here is a link:
ua-cam.com/video/BXASb-8k5tg/v-deo.html
Enjoy the show and thanks for tuning in!
SonoruS Audio can be found here:
sonorusaudio.com
Order an SHI tape here:
sonorusaudio.com/tapes
Cheers!
#audio #music #recording #stereo #records #subwoofer
re: bass I have this problem. I hear tons of bass from my system when I move out of the listening position. Sit back in the listening position and I immediately hear far less bass (no subs though). Glad to know there's a reason other than I'm crazy!
Yep, that's precisely the problem! I hear this all the time and the generally accepted "solution" is to simply add more subwoofers with more power for bigger excursions, etc. Clearly, you are not fixing the actual problem with this inherently flawed approach. The only solution I have ever heard to tackle and actually fix this problem is Arian's Proximity Bass Controller and modest 10" sub.
If you had ever come to visit our old home in Long Beach, I had the exact same issue: there was plenty of pressurized bass all over the house except for where I needed it...
PS: and subwoofer placement had nothing to do with it. The results were always the same until I added Arian’s fix.
I have to say, anyone who chooses this kind of title "Everything *you* know is wrong and I'm going to school you" has distain for their audience.
Totally agree. I stopped watching this channel a long time ago.
Best I can tell that people are having problems with bass and having it in the next room means your subs (or sub) are not placed correctly in the room that you’re listening in. There are techniques for placement of subs in your listening room. One way Paul from PS Audio says is to place your subwoofer in your listening chair and then walk around the room until you find the loudest spot for bass and then place your subwoofer there. Placement of your subwoofer is critical.
Absolutely it's critical - however, the problem is that even when you have placed the subwoofer correctly, you are still battling wave propagation facts which means that you are still going to have potential issues that you will never really solve with this setup method.
As I have used this example time and again, my second room simply had no bass. No matter where you positioned the sub, you simply felt no bass at all. The rest of the house had plenty of bass, but that room had zero. Only by applying Arian's Proximity Bass Controller was I able to restore the velocity and air pressure relationship and thus finally ended up with real bass in this room... Mind you, simply with a compact 10" sub. Thanks for tuning in!
super cool and super confusing so hopefully you will be making a follow up video
the most confusing part for me is why he has to personally set it up ? why wouldnt he just sell the electronic device we could just hook up to any extra sub and dial in ourselves with some simple starting point instructions he could even sell zoom time for example for those that need additional help
That's been the crux of the matter for Arian since inception... he has to set it up personally because he knows what to listen for during setup. I have watched him setting one up a dozen times and barely got the hang of it, which doesn't really mean much, since I'm deaf. LOL! Joking aside, it's a very complex and fairly lengthy setup procedure that I have pushed him to automate if at all possible... let's see what happens!
Ah, yes, this is exactly why I use TBI's Direct Port Modulation subs, as they as propagate bass like no other sub.
There is something important which I find missing in that discussion. People underestimate human brain and hearing sense complexity. Our ears are constantly adopting to what we hear in a way that alows to catch the most important information. The moment we understand what we hear in a sense of recognizing source it rejects all not matching rest. Our ears want to listen for understanding - not only to listen. That is why in open air with windy conditions we do not notice wind. And the same when we talk in reverberated room we do not notice reverberation - in few minutes ears learn that constant repeatable the same harmonics does not matter. So by incearsing level of unwantedet by ears and affecting other material bass we give ears information to equalize. More bass means more cure by brain. That sensation is clear and popular while attending big gigs and perceiving too loud sopranos - we leave tha place and find that we got daf for most important part of listening. Untill we regain normal listening again.
First what should be done before installing ANY suwoofer is to learn what is the perfect balance of tones. To be amazed with lowest bass was also my experience. But I never applied subwoofer. It was when I was over 20 and was charmed by lowest range in one .... textile saloon. It was way different lowest tones from my perfect sounding speakers at home. (In fact such subtones I acheved only after 50 yeras of constructing spaekaers). When I lerned what and how I made few mid size speakers charming with as low as 25 Hz. They were only almost exactly perfect with rest as I like . Last week I made another speakers with single wideranges which disappointed me because they would play (by ear) not lower than 40 Hz. Then I compared that pair to before made which transmit from 25 Hz - all with my beloved multiinstrumenatl music ( not jazz with 2 instruments plus contrabass), and many vocals.. Result is no difference except last construction sounds a bit deeper and more impressive. I find that that I can live without repruduction of 20-40 Hz range and save on power and size of speakers. Even more because that range sounds best in my hallway
Apparently, I’m confused. Does this guy offer a product? Is it an actual sub, or some kind of eq?
Yeah there's so many words but nothing that actually says what the thing is and what exactly it does. They title it as everything we know about subs is wrong, yet when they finally makes it to the point after almost ten minutes is about room modes which is very well know about, they're really just kicking at an open door. I smell yet another audiophile bs product.
Arian did offer this product - the Proximity Bass Controller - for a time via direct sale. Given the complexities of getting the controller dialed in - a manual process at this point in time - he paused sales until he can figure out a way to automate the setup and tune-in process. I have two of them in use for more than ten years now...
@@SonicFlare Okay, but what exactly does it do? Is it a EQ, a delay, crossover or what is it? What are the dials on it that people seem to not be able to handle?
I think he is right. I wish my brain would also delete my tinitus. 😀
Ugh. I hear ya. There is lots of stuff being experimented with in that field from what I hear - obviously you are still suffering from this issue.
Same!!
I really hope so Danny. Only myself to blame for not wearing ear protection playing drums @@SonicFlare
@@krupboom Ugh. Sorry man… 🙏🏼
yup, same here... :(
A sub-sat combination is the best way to go or get a Devialet Phantom loudspeaker because you hear the bass on that thing.
depends on the room... I've heard it have literally zero bass despite going completely bananas with excursion and cone travel.
Very informative, thanks Danny.
How does the brain decide that the "flappy wind" is irrelevant / superfluous?
Great question. How does the brain decide that tuning out your tummy’s churning and burning is irrelevant? The design of the hearing apparatus / brain we all carry is an incredibly complex subject…
@@SonicFlare I think the decision is made by recognizing which sounds at first are permanent and thus are affecting maximum understanding of other important and interersting us sounds. In other words are malignant If there would be only that lowest bass than ok but in material is usualy more instruments Our curiosity may want to emphasize bass but if it is against our other wishes decision is taken in favour of mid range.
Very interesting!
Mr. Pete------->
aging hippie
Indeed!
geez. Now I want a ProsimitySub Bass controller and towards the end we find out they're no longer available? and yes i understand it takes specialised installation. I'd be willing to be trained! :D
Hey, give him a call - he's not shy to talk and who knows, maybe you'll convince him to build you a processor... 😋
I did give him a significant push to work on devising a way of automating this process, which is obviously very complex - I have yet to set mine up again and will no doubt need another class in setup too... lol Thanks for tuning in!
Maybe edit your volume a bit higher? Higher peaks are around -15 dB. A little bit of compression should do it. Excellent video man.
Question; where is the proximity woofer placed?
Yeah, I need to futz with sound a bit. Thanks for suggestion. Re: where the proximity woofer is placed… well, it really depends where it will perform best, as during the setup procedure you move the “sub” around quite a bit
@@SonicFlare Okay cool, I was just wondering if there was a set angle or position vs the stereo speakers . F.e. the phase change with wave propagation. Very interesting interview.
Your example with the wind is not good. It is rather the architecture of the ear which allows us not to hear the wind, not the brain. When you don't want to hear the wind in a microphone, you protect it with material that absorbs the wind. The sound can be compared to a series of bubbles with different pressures that propagate. The problem is that depending on the size of this "bubble" it does not always have time to propagate correctly before encountering an obstacle. It can be completely canceled by obstacles or the sound itself. the problem comes from the room and the poor choice of subwoofer size, not from the brain.
I can hear wind perfectly fine when I want to hear wind. The brain is the main computer of your body and it decides how things correlate and function to each other and within each other. The point is that the microphone can not make that distinction and thus needs a windshield to block out that noise.
If you actually listen to the entire interview, you will hear Arian explain the problem of bass perception in your room. The point being the exact opposite of your statement: it has little to do with the size of the subwoofer: in fact, you will only make the problem worse. Pay attention Charlie!
The reel spinning was triggering my tweak receptors 😵💫
🤣🤣🤣
This is not really very useful in any practical way and actually the 'guru' contradicts himself more than somewhat.
Psychoacoustics (neuroacoustics) can be approached as science or art or sometimes there is a 'golden mean' -- but it is always space specific. Mr Jansen makes this point in a very long-winded way.
By 'golden mean' I refer practical sound representation applied to a purpose which Lansing did so much to define in practice when cinemas were the main centers of entertainment for the masses. Filling different sized spaces with sounds faithful to purpose led to several solutions which Lansing refined and, in doing so, left us a sort of 'manual' of sound reproduction.
Had he lived longer and been less harassed by corporate bosses of aspects of the cinema industry he might have established, with others on 3 continents, a whole discipline of sound reproduction.
Relevant to the long piece by Mr Jansen is the fact that Lansing (Martini) approached very low frequencies in terms of "reinforcement" of what frequencies are perceived by human brains not just through the ears.
Harmonics of very high pitched instruments and natural sounds and voices also have low frequencies.
LOL! You're a hoot dude. This is not useful or practical? Works for me and many others who were able to purchase Arian's proximity bass controller and sub combo.
The one thing I do agree on is that back in the day many actual science practicing and knowledge seeking engineers actually did spend time futzing with this stuff - his proximity bass controller is really not that new; wave propagation has been understood for some time now, old cinemas used a derivative of his system from what he's told me...
Anyway, your comment is somewhat strange.
Interesting but useless info.
What a bunch of bull shit!
If you do not hear the bass at the listening position and you hear it in the kitchen, then put the subwoofer in the kitchen and you will hear it at the listening position.
LOL!!! 😂 I think you are on to something!
Excellent, just belly laughed...🙂
What is the difference between this solution and what people call DIRAC or other names?
Isn't this solution making the same thing? Am I missing something?
No. Watch the video carefully then compare it to what other products do.
I'm pretty sure you've watched Paul McGowan of PS Audio?
Who hasn't... 🤣🤘🏻
So what's the practical lesson here? I get that you don't need a giant sub. But since his product isn't available, what can one do to help their setup?
Great question of the ages… now that we know what the actual problem is and how to fix it, promote it with your favorite speaker manufacturer and ask them to create a product around it. It’s like everything else: you have to raise awareness first. The question I have of course is that this isn’t crazy rocket science - it’s wave propagation science. Why haven’t speaker manufacturers picked up on this? Well, for one, they probably don’t know about it - shock, gasp, awe - and two, it’s easier to sell big boxes with box subs and big power for big money. Then you start promoting the idea that you need not only one of these, but or three or more and you see the dollar signs and profits go up and up and up…
Whoever said high end audio is actually about high end audio? 😆🐥🤣
PS: there’s only one company that is touching this subject, albeit, quietly, which is Von Schweikert… at least at shows they they show signs of accepting these facts and setting up speakers and subs accordingly.
WTF did i just watch? I heard a 20 min word salad and zero to show for it. So there's a solution, but you can't get the solution? What the? I have a power sound sub with opposing 15" woofers , the sub is too the left along the wall behind my couch and the bass is very good. If your not getting good bass, move the sub. I don't understand why people make this shit do difficult.
Have you had your Ritalin yet this morning?
I agree. Why do this video if there is no implementable version? It was interesting up the realization that he has no product, no hints, no nothing and the only reference I found on the unit was it cost 10Grand and that was several years ago.
Is not that just a faulty myth?
As you say we need to have the number of feets to have 20hz to be "unfold".
Makes no sence when they can get lower frequency in car audio than they should be able to "unfold".
That audio misconception that we need to have as large space as A single wave length has is so obvious wrong!
Another example is in ear headphones.. How many millimeters is it from the face of the driver to the ear drum..
Well approximately 23mm on adults. Let us calculate that a wave length that is fully "unfolded" for 23 mm is 14,913 Hz (~14,9 kHz).
So the false "unfold" logic is that with in ear headphones you should then only be able to hear from approximately 15 000 hz and above.. 😂
Everyone can see that it is a myth and just totally wrong.
Nobody needs over 17 m long room for to be able to "unfold" a full 20 Hz wavelength.. 😅
Please don't spread that FUD to our audiophile friends. ❤
100% ✨️✅️
Just put a sub in the kitchen 😊
😛😛😛
Incredible bass out of a giant subwoofer who make subsonic sound??? Why give the Job to the sub only? I get bass out of my towers, not the subwoofer?
You are supposed to get bass out of your main speakers. If you aren't you've got a shitty speaker. 🔈🤣
@@SonicFlare I agree. I never had to use subwoofer because all my speakers (streao or mono) were correcltly balanced I have always opposite problem - to avoid overloading the speakers I am sometime forced to use subsonic filter. In brand systems I am disappointed with no linear too much bass. But I do not criticize if owners are happy only I feel sorry if that they have system and it is boring them with the same sounding.