I love this channel because it's basically a personal journey of 3 lads who set out to pursue their game dev dreams and are documenting their experiences and lessons over time as they grow. It's raw, it's authentic, and it's honesty. The advice is just the cherry on top.
I couldn't have said it better! I really enjoy watching BiteMe Games videos because of what you said :) I watch a lot of inde game dev content and I find the videos from this channel refreshing. I wish you the best BiteMe Games and I believe you can do it! Never give up
"Leave it behind" is such underrated advice. You can't fall in love with your ideas, and have to be flexible. If it doesn't work, gotta be able to cut the fat and try to do without that idea.
Another great vid! Here's my 3 tips: 1- When designing always ask yourself: is this fun? For example my game, RoadHouse Manager, (wishlist today on steam and stuff) started off as a hardcore RPG with over a 1000 cooking ingredients and five rounds of dice rolls to serve a customer. But after making that, it just wasn't engaging enough to watch dice rolling, so I changed it massively, and now its far more an action game sorta like Overcooked on top of 'under the hood' simulation mechanics. 2- Don't put too much stock into what some people on the internet say. For example here, don't listen to trolls on youtube. They are not game designers, they do not know anything about game design in all likey-hood, and if your game is truly original like mine for example, they wouldn't even really be able to judge whether or not its a good idea unless they saw it action or played it, because nothing like it has been done before. Listen to play-testers, tune out the rando's. 3- Re genre mixing: I don't agree with the common thoughts on this topic. It'll be different for everyone of course. For myself, I rather make a unique genre mix that's never been done before instead of a 100th clone of a known and standardized design. I'm not making some one else's game again, I'm making mine, and the passion motivating me is not money (my game prob won't sell enough to make me minimum wage tbh), I'm trying to make an innovative design for a game that I myself would love to play but doesn't yet exist until I make it. If we never genre mixed we wouldn't have the invention of new subgenres like vampire-survivors-likes to begin with.
but....vampire survivors wasn't 1st bullet hell survivor roguelike to begin with.. i get what u were trying to say but that game was just well done copy of existing subgenre already... the dude behind it had gambling industry background so he knew how to make his game addicting (thus the flashing lights and ding ding ding sounds when u open any box).. it was the same game that existed but arguably better hook (and a lot of luck that so many content creators picked it up for essentially free promotion)
@@samamies88 Yes you are totally right, but just apply what I said to whatever the progenitor / grand-father of vampire survivors was, and it's the same thing: further enough up the line of influence, there was one dev who made something innovative, a new blend... then in of itself was further influenced by other earlier genres. I mean you could trace the vampire survivors genre all the way back to Robotron 2084. I guess what I'm saying it is good to refine and enhance an existing subgenre, or make a new variation of it, and either of those routes are better than just cloning the mechanics of an existing game without any significant variation.
@@gameboardgames Edit: TLDR = Just make good games. Who cares if there was innovation or copying. Long read: Ehh... am not actually sure what you are trying to say. Players don't care if the game they are playing is the most unique or was 1st of its kind. All they care is that it is fun. And the devs of that game care about how marketable the game is. Yes being 100th makes it quite likely that the game won't be a commercial success and won't gain much respect from fellow devs. But also sometimes being 1st really doesn't do that either (see how many times people name warcraft mods being 1st form of MOBA genre when..... future cop LAPD had also a mode that had multiplayer, bot lanes, goal is to destroy opposing base, u can go to area moba players now would call "jungle" to gather more resources to improve odds..... and that wasn't a mod... that was already in base game and unless modders were really fast creating their moba i believe fc lapd was actually 1st..... do people care?) Maybe other devs give you respect if you managed to be innovative. But that is only assuming you would become known in dev circles. And many devs sadly will not be seen. Heck, the game might be really uwknown (see the point about future cop lapd above again - how many players even know the game exists?). Am not saying everyone should become lazy and start copycatting each other. I have seen some lazy devs try and copypaste another game with very minimal "twist" added on top of it. I don't think that is what dev content creators & authors & spokespersons meant when they say something like "pick a game/genre and redo that with a twist". I do think those devs try to push people towards innovation. But also that strategy is much safer than trying to be 100% pure innovation without any copying. (Also i think that tip is very often made towards brand new game devs and it may be a tip how to make their 1st non-commercial game). Who really cares if your cooking game has worlds best carrot growing simulator with all new shiny background math with gene structures, soil quality and hidden mechanics...... How many purchases do you think that will cause? How many dev content creators will mention your name or that game in their dev logs, tutorials or news video? How many will refer that innovation in books? How many invitations to have a speech about your game do u think u will get? Being innovative just for innovations sake i don't think is the goal. I feel like either you are making games that are easy to sell and give you living or you make games that create joy for you and/or to others. Being innovative in right places help making game more fun. But being innovative isn't what makes or breaks game.
Some game design tips: Develop the core loop first. What is the player doing from moment to moment. Explore the immediate surroundings with an open mind and naively. Channel your inner Shigeru, instead of already thinking about systems and features of other games. What if, in your fighting game, the weapon can get stuck in wood and suchlike, and disarming can happen. Go from such questions. I tell you the number one design secret. The design secret is a two-phase way of thinking and doing things. You need to learn these like a muscle. In one phase, you are fooling around. Allow silly ideas. Don't judge them just yet. The weapon stuck in wood sounds like a really bad idea, ... maybe, but what if... Then, after a bit of fooling around, you switch to the other way of thinking. Here you become analytical and you judge. Is this conceivably fun at all? Worth prototyping? Rinse and repeat. Try to be semi-conscious in which mode you are in. One mode is often about multiplication, more ideas, variants, possible directions, and the other is about reduction: shooting things down, sorting out the best bits of each. When you work in a team, figure out how the arrangement is. Some teams fool around together and judge together, in others, one faction (or person) generates new foolish directions, then the other are judges. The clearer you are on this, the better you'll work together, because then you have "permission" to propose silly ideas, or to judge harshly.
"Try it" is always the best idea. I try to leave a lot of room for this as I'm still discovering what my game is gonna be. However, the further you go in, the less you should be doing this. Especially if its a totally new feature/idea. This is how you get scope creep. But you can always judge whether the scope creep is worth it or not. "Try it" is how I decided to add flight in my car combat game to sort of mimic Rocket League but not completely.
Saying you failed on execution regarding game design multiple times may not be the best lead up to. Here's how I learned game design, along with my top tips, lol.
Except I'd be lying then, I'm talking about the book here, not my own perspectives. That's the whole point of the book club series, talk about things I'm by no means an expert in (yet), but what I'm learning along the way instead. -M
@@bitemegamesI respect the honesty and self awareness. It’s important for growth in all aspects. You’re going through it and it helps others to see the ups and downs
jack, you do know that failing at something is still more experience in field than never doing anything? right? u know that right? Like.. let say you are starting a game studio and are busy with ur dream game but have funds for 2nd game... u try to hire game designer and for any reason only 2 people apply. One has tons of ideas but has no experience. Other person has few ideas they have carefully thought thru but their previous attempts weren't commercial successes. Which one would u hire? Go with total gamble with person who has 0 idea how things work or go with the one that at least know what not to do (and also .. u know... they still made game or games so they can still complete a project.. and possibly coordinate with a team)???
Am not sure you are oversimplifying those genre blendings or if i am.... but aren't many recent successes essentially just 2 genres slapped together? Balantro is poker + roguelike. Palworld is monstercatcher + survival. Rocket League is essentially race game + soccer. I think it is fine to mix 2 genres together as long as you follow the other rules (such as "try it out" - prototype is so essential.. also it needs to be fun). Heck what is portal if not puzzle first person.... shooter? Platformer? Its something 2 mixed together for sure.
Might be in the book, but my design tip is to document who your player might be. Are they a HS kid with plenty of time for grind & 'git gud' punishment? Or a harried 35-50yo squeezing in a quick play session every other weekend? What skills/knowledge do you assume they have, and what will you need to teach them? Are they looking for a quick diversion, or their next obsession? Even more than raw demographics (age, gender, income), this process helps you understand who you're making the game for, and hopefully, how your design can meet their needs & expectations. Also should've posted an affiliate link - without your review, I would have passed-by such an expensive, yet short, book 🤔
CRC press doesn't do affiliate stuff though. I do agree it's a bit on the pricier side currently, but I've seen it go down to €23 in discount which is fair I think. -M
@@bitemegames Good to know, I'll add a price-alert 👍 I think the libraries/universities here also have a deal with CRC, might be able to read it through them if it's not in the collection.
I love BiteMe but it’s crazy to me that their advice is so good and their game ideas are super lame(in my opinion.) I know people worry about scope creep and tell you not to make your dream game, but I think the more ambitious the game generally the more rewarding it is to make
The more ambitious a game, the less likely it is to ever be made. See Star Citizen for an extreme example. A scope can be too big. This is even more important for a small indie team or solo dev like me. Ambitious in design but tight as possible in scope, is the best target a game designer can have.
@@AdroitConceptions This argument is meaningless. You don't have to be a chef to know something tastes like sewage. Also how do you even define such an asinine metric. Some people would classify "what the time was worth" as a single dollar, others would classify it as hundreds of thousands of dollars. Learn better argumentation.
@@xxkillbotxx7553 so instead of giving a good argument why setting your scope beyond what you can complete (and therefore end up with zero game) is a good idea, you just try to say I don't know what I am talking about. My point is that lots of people spout all sorts of nonsense (just like your comment seems to be), but then when asked to show that their point of view has worked under real world limitations, they have nothing to show (or they spew crap like your saying). an easy/low bar definition of "commercial success" - you sold enough that the product would pay you at least as much as an entry level job would have if you had just worked a job instead of working on the project. Your trying to twist what I said "commercial success" into "was it worth the time" which is a completely different mark of value. if your making game for yourself, for your own enjoyment making them, with no need or desire to be commercially successful, then yes, do whatever floats your boat. HOWEVER, if your making games with any type of commercial goal in mind, then you have to make choices that support that goal. really simple...
I love this channel because it's basically a personal journey of 3 lads who set out to pursue their game dev dreams and are documenting their experiences and lessons over time as they grow. It's raw, it's authentic, and it's honesty. The advice is just the cherry on top.
I couldn't have said it better! I really enjoy watching BiteMe Games videos because of what you said :) I watch a lot of inde game dev content and I find the videos from this channel refreshing. I wish you the best BiteMe Games and I believe you can do it! Never give up
"Leave it behind" is such underrated advice. You can't fall in love with your ideas, and have to be flexible. If it doesn't work, gotta be able to cut the fat and try to do without that idea.
Another great vid! Here's my 3 tips:
1- When designing always ask yourself: is this fun? For example my game, RoadHouse Manager, (wishlist today on steam and stuff) started off as a hardcore RPG with over a 1000 cooking ingredients and five rounds of dice rolls to serve a customer. But after making that, it just wasn't engaging enough to watch dice rolling, so I changed it massively, and now its far more an action game sorta like Overcooked on top of 'under the hood' simulation mechanics.
2- Don't put too much stock into what some people on the internet say. For example here, don't listen to trolls on youtube. They are not game designers, they do not know anything about game design in all likey-hood, and if your game is truly original like mine for example, they wouldn't even really be able to judge whether or not its a good idea unless they saw it action or played it, because nothing like it has been done before. Listen to play-testers, tune out the rando's.
3- Re genre mixing: I don't agree with the common thoughts on this topic. It'll be different for everyone of course. For myself, I rather make a unique genre mix that's never been done before instead of a 100th clone of a known and standardized design. I'm not making some one else's game again, I'm making mine, and the passion motivating me is not money (my game prob won't sell enough to make me minimum wage tbh), I'm trying to make an innovative design for a game that I myself would love to play but doesn't yet exist until I make it. If we never genre mixed we wouldn't have the invention of new subgenres like vampire-survivors-likes to begin with.
but....vampire survivors wasn't 1st bullet hell survivor roguelike to begin with.. i get what u were trying to say but that game was just well done copy of existing subgenre already... the dude behind it had gambling industry background so he knew how to make his game addicting (thus the flashing lights and ding ding ding sounds when u open any box).. it was the same game that existed but arguably better hook (and a lot of luck that so many content creators picked it up for essentially free promotion)
@@samamies88 Yes you are totally right, but just apply what I said to whatever the progenitor / grand-father of vampire survivors was, and it's the same thing: further enough up the line of influence, there was one dev who made something innovative, a new blend... then in of itself was further influenced by other earlier genres. I mean you could trace the vampire survivors genre all the way back to Robotron 2084. I guess what I'm saying it is good to refine and enhance an existing subgenre, or make a new variation of it, and either of those routes are better than just cloning the mechanics of an existing game without any significant variation.
@@gameboardgames
Edit: TLDR = Just make good games. Who cares if there was innovation or copying.
Long read:
Ehh... am not actually sure what you are trying to say. Players don't care if the game they are playing is the most unique or was 1st of its kind. All they care is that it is fun. And the devs of that game care about how marketable the game is. Yes being 100th makes it quite likely that the game won't be a commercial success and won't gain much respect from fellow devs. But also sometimes being 1st really doesn't do that either (see how many times people name warcraft mods being 1st form of MOBA genre when..... future cop LAPD had also a mode that had multiplayer, bot lanes, goal is to destroy opposing base, u can go to area moba players now would call "jungle" to gather more resources to improve odds..... and that wasn't a mod... that was already in base game and unless modders were really fast creating their moba i believe fc lapd was actually 1st..... do people care?)
Maybe other devs give you respect if you managed to be innovative. But that is only assuming you would become known in dev circles. And many devs sadly will not be seen. Heck, the game might be really uwknown (see the point about future cop lapd above again - how many players even know the game exists?).
Am not saying everyone should become lazy and start copycatting each other. I have seen some lazy devs try and copypaste another game with very minimal "twist" added on top of it. I don't think that is what dev content creators & authors & spokespersons meant when they say something like "pick a game/genre and redo that with a twist". I do think those devs try to push people towards innovation. But also that strategy is much safer than trying to be 100% pure innovation without any copying. (Also i think that tip is very often made towards brand new game devs and it may be a tip how to make their 1st non-commercial game).
Who really cares if your cooking game has worlds best carrot growing simulator with all new shiny background math with gene structures, soil quality and hidden mechanics...... How many purchases do you think that will cause? How many dev content creators will mention your name or that game in their dev logs, tutorials or news video? How many will refer that innovation in books? How many invitations to have a speech about your game do u think u will get?
Being innovative just for innovations sake i don't think is the goal. I feel like either you are making games that are easy to sell and give you living or you make games that create joy for you and/or to others. Being innovative in right places help making game more fun. But being innovative isn't what makes or breaks game.
Some game design tips:
Develop the core loop first. What is the player doing from moment to moment. Explore the immediate surroundings with an open mind and naively. Channel your inner Shigeru, instead of already thinking about systems and features of other games. What if, in your fighting game, the weapon can get stuck in wood and suchlike, and disarming can happen. Go from such questions.
I tell you the number one design secret. The design secret is a two-phase way of thinking and doing things. You need to learn these like a muscle. In one phase, you are fooling around. Allow silly ideas. Don't judge them just yet. The weapon stuck in wood sounds like a really bad idea, ... maybe, but what if... Then, after a bit of fooling around, you switch to the other way of thinking. Here you become analytical and you judge. Is this conceivably fun at all? Worth prototyping? Rinse and repeat. Try to be semi-conscious in which mode you are in. One mode is often about multiplication, more ideas, variants, possible directions, and the other is about reduction: shooting things down, sorting out the best bits of each. When you work in a team, figure out how the arrangement is. Some teams fool around together and judge together, in others, one faction (or person) generates new foolish directions, then the other are judges. The clearer you are on this, the better you'll work together, because then you have "permission" to propose silly ideas, or to judge harshly.
Thanks!
Thank you! -M
Marnix-Don't just mix a bunch of things that are good and expect the outcome to be good.
Me, sitting here eating my Oreo Ice Cream Cake.
I mean, that's just a Carvel ice cream cake 😅 Very much a proven winner! *yum*
"Try it" is always the best idea. I try to leave a lot of room for this as I'm still discovering what my game is gonna be. However, the further you go in, the less you should be doing this. Especially if its a totally new feature/idea. This is how you get scope creep. But you can always judge whether the scope creep is worth it or not.
"Try it" is how I decided to add flight in my car combat game to sort of mimic Rocket League but not completely.
I watch all your videos, but this has been more useful than others in my opinion... Thanks 😊
they would not want to eat your cake -Marnix
If only they knew how much I squat... -M
I always ask myself the same question it'd be exciting to learn from one another
BTW: The idea of people transporting the items for the production chain was already around in the 90s with the Settlers games.
Super useful video like always!
Please make more videos like this, also I don't see any reviews for this book do you still recommend this as a good starter book?
This video came right in time for me.
Saying you failed on execution regarding game design multiple times may not be the best lead up to. Here's how I learned game design, along with my top tips, lol.
Except I'd be lying then, I'm talking about the book here, not my own perspectives. That's the whole point of the book club series, talk about things I'm by no means an expert in (yet), but what I'm learning along the way instead. -M
@@bitemegamesI respect the honesty and self awareness. It’s important for growth in all aspects. You’re going through it and it helps others to see the ups and downs
jack, you do know that failing at something is still more experience in field than never doing anything? right? u know that right? Like.. let say you are starting a game studio and are busy with ur dream game but have funds for 2nd game... u try to hire game designer and for any reason only 2 people apply. One has tons of ideas but has no experience. Other person has few ideas they have carefully thought thru but their previous attempts weren't commercial successes. Which one would u hire? Go with total gamble with person who has 0 idea how things work or go with the one that at least know what not to do (and also .. u know... they still made game or games so they can still complete a project.. and possibly coordinate with a team)???
Enjoying Book club videos, more more more
Am not sure you are oversimplifying those genre blendings or if i am.... but aren't many recent successes essentially just 2 genres slapped together? Balantro is poker + roguelike. Palworld is monstercatcher + survival. Rocket League is essentially race game + soccer. I think it is fine to mix 2 genres together as long as you follow the other rules (such as "try it out" - prototype is so essential.. also it needs to be fun). Heck what is portal if not puzzle first person.... shooter? Platformer? Its something 2 mixed together for sure.
I’m so glad Godot makes tweens easy!
right!
10:00 Definition of addiction 😅
Might be in the book, but my design tip is to document who your player might be. Are they a HS kid with plenty of time for grind & 'git gud' punishment? Or a harried 35-50yo squeezing in a quick play session every other weekend? What skills/knowledge do you assume they have, and what will you need to teach them? Are they looking for a quick diversion, or their next obsession?
Even more than raw demographics (age, gender, income), this process helps you understand who you're making the game for, and hopefully, how your design can meet their needs & expectations.
Also should've posted an affiliate link - without your review, I would have passed-by such an expensive, yet short, book 🤔
CRC press doesn't do affiliate stuff though. I do agree it's a bit on the pricier side currently, but I've seen it go down to €23 in discount which is fair I think. -M
@@bitemegames Good to know, I'll add a price-alert 👍 I think the libraries/universities here also have a deal with CRC, might be able to read it through them if it's not in the collection.
10:32 I know a lie when I see one
10:56 hey what website is this?
gamalytic.com/genres
@@bitemegames thank you!
game design is hard
Sorry whats a tween?
I love BiteMe but it’s crazy to me that their advice is so good and their game ideas are super lame(in my opinion.)
I know people worry about scope creep and tell you not to make your dream game, but I think the more ambitious the game generally the more rewarding it is to make
just curious, what are some examples of their game ideas that you are referring to?
what are some of the games you have completed and has commercial success with? [IE was able to pay your self what the time was worth]
The more ambitious a game, the less likely it is to ever be made.
See Star Citizen for an extreme example. A scope can be too big.
This is even more important for a small indie team or solo dev like me. Ambitious in design but tight as possible in scope, is the best target a game designer can have.
@@AdroitConceptions This argument is meaningless. You don't have to be a chef to know something tastes like sewage. Also how do you even define such an asinine metric. Some people would classify "what the time was worth" as a single dollar, others would classify it as hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Learn better argumentation.
@@xxkillbotxx7553 so instead of giving a good argument why setting your scope beyond what you can complete (and therefore end up with zero game) is a good idea, you just try to say I don't know what I am talking about.
My point is that lots of people spout all sorts of nonsense (just like your comment seems to be), but then when asked to show that their point of view has worked under real world limitations, they have nothing to show (or they spew crap like your saying).
an easy/low bar definition of "commercial success" - you sold enough that the product would pay you at least as much as an entry level job would have if you had just worked a job instead of working on the project.
Your trying to twist what I said "commercial success" into "was it worth the time" which is a completely different mark of value.
if your making game for yourself, for your own enjoyment making them, with no need or desire to be commercially successful, then yes, do whatever floats your boat. HOWEVER, if your making games with any type of commercial goal in mind, then you have to make choices that support that goal.
really simple...