What Paul is talking about in Romans 7 is definitely me right now in my walk with God. It's very frustrating, and yet encouraging, because it means i must be truly saved if i am struggling with my sin. I would ask though that any believers that see this would pray for me that God would help deliver me from this struggle according to His will and plan for my life. Also, may God bless everyone at Ligonier and the people who come to this comment section. Amen!
Unless one believes in perfectionism and does not believe that the old Adam still lurks within until we die, I think Paul is clearly saying that the Christian life is a battle. Before I became a Christian, I had no battle with my thoughts or the condition of my mind or my heart. What ever one wishes to do theologically with these passages, in the end, it is the reality of the Christian life else we would never have all the teachings on sanctification, those would be unnecessary. Any Christian who claims not to have a struggle with pride or selfishness or careless words or lust, or covetousness, is either deceived or not born again. The flesh lusts against the Spirit, thank God there is now no condemnation for those in Christ.
“ Believers struggle with sin not unbelievers “ The beginning says it’s talking to Jews. Jews were unbelievers ( in Christ) who struggled with sin . For Christians to say that well I must be saved if I struggle with sin. No the context attributes the struggle with sin to the Jewish man before conversion, who would of had the law of God yet struggled to keep it
(Clarity for my response, I believe Romans 7 is talking about the Jewish experience underneath the Mosaic Law) The first guy doesn’t give really any substantial argument to interpret that way besides “well thats how I feel.” Feelings should not guide are hermeneutics, context, reasoning, and a proper understanding of the literature should. On top of that, feelings are often very wrong. The second guy tries to use the context, so props to him for making an argument. However, he talks about how “It's in the middle of the section on sanctification of the believer.” That is just simply false when looking at the context. Paul is addressing the Jews who are trying to force Gentiles to follow the Law. Thats why he address a possible argument in 6:15 “What then? Are we to sin because we are not under the *Law* but under grace?” His argument is primarily trying to say that Jews do not need to follow the law but that we are now free from being slaves to sin (Ofc that has implications for us, but his main point was about debunking the judaizers). He then completely ignores 7:1, “Or do you not know, brothers and sisters (for I am speaking to those who know the Law)”. Paul specifically says he’s talking to Jews. Then he goes into a marriage analogy and then why the Law was good. So to interpret it as a typical Christian lifestyle is to actually completely ignore the surrounding context. He also says. “’Oh wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of sin?’ Unbelievers aren't talking like that.” I agree, but it sounds like something a Jew would say living under the Law but failing to keep it even though he wants to. Finally he says “It's just a logical sequence. It's a linear argument in the book of Romans.” I agree with this. But if you read the context of Romans (especially reading it through), its abundantly clear the logical sequence is addressed to judaizers within the church. Hence, in 8:1, the logical sequence (therefore) and the temporal sequence (now), since living under the Law was a thing of the past. I think Walt Russell (Professor at Biola University) does a great job of explaining my view. I highly recommend watching his lecture on UA-cam about it.
Thank you so much for uploading this discussion on Romans 7, Ligonier Ministries! I have been wrestling Scripturally with this passage for quite some time now since some of the most esteemed commentaries on the subject matter of the said verse, e.g. Douglas Mooʼs commentary on the Letter to the Romans from the NIGTC series, take the view that it was the Apostle Paulʼs 'monologue' during his pre-conversion struggles with sin and the Law. Dr. Lawson said it best also and I side with him on it that the logical order of the chapter speaks much of these Chapter 7 verses about the believerʼs on-going battle with the sin of the flesh. I will forever be grateful to the Lord for the grace He provides each day for all of us sinners who are saved by His grace alone through faith alone. Though we falter often, His mercies are new every morning. And in light of this, Martin Lutherʼs remarkable statement regarding the believerʼs life in this present age rings ever true: “Simul Justus et Peccator.” Lord, sanctify us with Your grace each day. May Your Holy Spirit be our guide in living a more Christ-like life each day until You call us home-all for the glory of the Father. Amen.
CLEARLY Paul is talking in PRESENT TIME about his PAST LIFE when he was a pharasiee then JESUS DELIVERED HIM!!! AMEN HALELLUJAH!🙌❤ JESUS SAID, GO AND SIN NO MORE! BE YE PERFECT AS OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT! IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS! 4JESUS, THE AUTHOR OF ETERNAL SALVATION TO THOSE THAT OBEY HIM!
@@RT-qz5ciI think he is saying no where in any of scripture does God try to encourage us in our advancement to becoming more like Jesus by being ok with the fact that we sin and be in fellowship so that we can all just agree with a mindset of you have your sins I have mine so let's just be cool with it and keep hopelessly failing.
Paul is talking about “I of myself”. In this way sin is stronger than I am of myself. I try to do good but sin lies at hand. It comes and is present when I try to do good. But we are not “I of myself” Christians. We are in the Spirit and in chapter8 it says that we overcome the deeds of the body by walking in the Spirit. This not about a preconversion experience or two natures having a box on.
Roman 7 is where too many reformed believers live- purposely focusing on themselves and their sins - focusing on the flesh and putting themselves back under the demands of the law, thus making their faith void (the righteousness of faith). If we “Likewise” reckon ourselves dead to sin (Romans 6:11) we don’t struggles with sin (chapter 7) then you can live in chapter 8.
@Desire Of All NationsNo one’s pretending that it doesn’t exist but believers should recon themselves dead to it “likewise” (in the same manner) as Jesus who died once and for all to sin. The Greek word for reckon is logizomai which means to declare it so because it is so - not to pretend that it isn’t so. This empowers a believer to live right in a way that goes beyond self effort at behavior modification to the demand of the law which is the strength of sin.
I think Dr MLJ's view of Romans 7 developed over time as he moved from Calvinistic Methodism to Congregationalism, see his sermon 'Sanctification in Romans 6 to 8' in his 'Great Biblical Doctrines' series
@@kingkeong1507 Are you LDS? Have you read the Gospel of John? There are many places where Jesus declares himself to be God. In fact, that's one reason the Jews were so upset with him because he claimed to be God. In John 8:58 Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Even just there, he declared himself to be Yahweh.
I wonder if these Reform guys are even saved because they come up with so much goofy, unbiblical nonsense like TULIP. Now here they are interpreting Romans 7 as being the experience of a Christian struggling with sin. Paul in chapers 7 and 8 is contrasting the unregenerate man under the law with the regenerate man, who has the Holy Spirit empowering him to live a life pleasing to God. Roman 8:3 clearly states "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"
How is that possible? A believer who still has no chance to to overcome sin? Romans 8 says that a Christian no longer have to sin but the person described in Romans 7 has no other opportunity than to sin...
It's pretty simple, chapter 7 is discussing the law of sin and death. 8:2 says the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death. So Romans 7 is absolutely not a believer, it's a lost person. But people love to twist it to reassure themselves in their sin.
From daily experience, I believe it's a Christian. We are sanctified and over time our desires are changed. "I will give you the desires of your heart." We struggle with sin less over time I believe, as we gain self control through the Holy Spirit.
Anyone who would think St. Paul is referring to an unbeliever in Romans 7, isn’t in touch with his own corruption. Our heart is desperately wicked, who can know it? One who has been enlightened by God Himself.
Let’s call a spade a spade: Any view that denies Romans 7 is dealing with a Christian’s struggle with sin is heresy. The text is utterly explicit. The apostle Paul cannot do what he wants. That which he does, he hates. And that which he loves, he does not.
@@Mrm1985100 Actually, Paul is explaining that now that he’s saved, he has the best possible “excuse” for sinning: ‘It wasn’t actually myself that sinned, it was something uncontrollable within me that sinned’!!! Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Romans 7:17 KJV
@@Mrm1985100 Unless you believe in sinless perfection in this life, then Romans 7 is absolutely talking about post-conversion when Paul talks about his struggle with sin
Someone who has Romans 7 revealed will be persecuted for truly revealing it to others. It is a chapter that could change someone's whole view of the bible because it is possible to be forever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth
He is looking at the strata of things. Sin is powerful to a Christian. When we try to do good we are overcome by sin in our own strength. We do not become a Christian and then try to overcome sin in our own strength. We are dependent on the Spirit. The law is the law of sin and death when we act in this way. But we have received the Spirit if we belong to Christ.
Sin is devastatingly powerful, no doubt. But Christians have access to a greater power, which is God's grace. Second part of Romans 5 depicts this two powers that operate in human lives and Paul shows that the power of sin is not even comparable to the power of grace. The believer's victory is assured and climaxed in Romans 5:17. So believer is not a wretched man, but a triumphant man! Wretched man is the one who is under the law and wretchedness is not what gospel produces in a believer 's life. It produces righteousness , peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. That doesn't lament " what a wretched man I" but rejoices in, "what a blessed man I". At best Romans 7 begins with a discussion on "Is the law carnal? He explains Law is spiritual only, but it is not compatible with sin. Not because law is inferior, but it was not designed for sanctification. It was designed to magnify sin. Such simple is Romans 7.
Are we to ask God the Father or man for the answer ? We'll get it only through Christ People. God LOVES us so much that he will not leave us the way we are. Glory unto Glory revelation unto revelation men and brethren. 👍
@@iggy1644 True my brother . Had I said anything against the Word of God that prompted such a reply on your behalf ? May God bless all of the redeemed according to his purposes for if God be for us who can be against us for God is not a respector of persons but to those who do right and we know who we Look to right ? Selah 👍
A Believer Made New in CHRIST. We must Keep the exact same Hermeneutic as what We have for the TRINITY and The DEITY Of CHRIST, Justification by GOD'S Grace In CHRIST, through Faith In CHRIST, to GOD TRIUNE Glory In Magnifying The SON.
Deception, not struggle! Romans 7 is the cheese in the grilled cheese sandwich of 6, 7, and 8. It is the continuation of the principle Paul begins to develop in chapter 6 concerning the DEATH we DIE in baptism. Paul USES himself as the "self-examining Jew" who knows that he must keep the Law. He says it RIGHT THERE in the text. "Therefore, my brethren, you also have BECOME DEAD to the law through (being baptized into) the (crucified) body of Christ." He now REALIZES "If then, I do what I "will" not to do, I AGREE with the law - that it is good. But now, it is NO LONGER I who DO it, but SIN that dwells in me." But, we're NOT SLAVES to sin, anymore, so STOP doing it! Tell sin, "Sorry, find somebody else! I'm not your puppet anymore!" Yeah, we all get fooled, because, maybe, we're not paying attention. But as soon as you become aware - walk away - and apologize to God! It's easy, if you've been born AGAIN. If NOT, these words are POWERLESS against sin (sons of Sceva)! So then, you need to repent and be baptized into Christ and receive the Holy Spirit, or else, as Paul says in chapter 8, YOU don't BELONG to Him! So fix it, already!
Can you please explain "it is no longer I who do it but sin that dwells in me". Is this talking about an unbeliever? If so, why does the bible say that it is not longer I who do it?
@@matilda95. Hello! This is part of the letter of introduction Paul is writing to the Romans that he will be visiting. Jesus regularly informs him of The Plan. It begins in Acts 20.17-35, where Paul will be sent to war in Jerusalem, then in the Mediterranean Sea, then at Malta, and finally Rome. This is a spiritual war between "the believer" and the unseen enemy that constantly opposes us. The Law is spiritual...and GOOD! We love to please God, but our enemy hates us and attacks us with false condemnations daily. In Romans 6, Paul explains that we are DEAD to this world THROUGH baptism. Neither the RCC nor the Reformers grasp what dying with Christ means. This is part of "the deception" Paul told the Ephesians about. It continues in the church in false doctrines to this very day, "changing" God's instructions and promises at will - regularly! The military bombing quip, "you can tell when you are over the target when you start receiving the flak" applies here. God has forgiven us, but we are assaulted with false "condemnations." Paul is saying "just keep on keeping on" and hold on to the promise of eternal life. We have received the Holy Spirit through baptism, just as Jesus and Peter told us. It's ALL OVER that Book of Acts that protestant churchmen don't want you to read! Imagine that! Whose side are they on?
The context describes someone who is under the law and thus is condemned by the law. Paul’s emphasis is that we cannot meet the requirements of the law, no matter how much we may want to! The law is righteous yet brings death. The only thing that can free us from our body of sin and death is Jesus. Chapter 8 describes someone who has been freed from chapter 7.
@@elijahguillory4981 Because we still have a body (our flesh) that is filled with sin. No one who takes Romans 7 as not the typical Christian experience claims that Christians don't struggle with sin. That's a complete straw man.
@@Micahproductions to conclude that chapter 7 is a preconversion person is strawman as well and shows improper translation of the previous 6 chapters. It's very clear, halfway thru chapter 5, Paul has switched to the redeemed and definitely by chapter 6 he has, just look at his opening statement. The book Romans is in levels, and to backtrack to chapters 1-3 when he got to chapter 7 would make no sense. Especially since the original Scripts had no chapters or verses. Also Paul's language when you read it in the Greek with its notations and tense further confirms this as post conversion
@@elijahguillory4981 I don’t think you understand what a straw man fallacy is. It’s when you misrepresent a view. I don’t believe the two audiences in Romans are Christian’s and non christians, it’s the church in Rome made up of gentiles and messianic Jews. So yes, Paul does address the gentiles earlier, however he does move to addressing Jews later on. On top of that, Romans 7:1 says, “Or do you not know, brothers and sisters (for I am speaking to those who know the Law),” so it’s clear he’s talking to the Jews within the Church. So it makes a lot of sense that Paul is thus talking about what it feels like to be under the Law in Romans 7.
@@Micahproductions we'll agree to disagree here brother because we can't assume what's not stated when what is stated is clear beginning at v13. Bless u bro. Grace & Peace
Unfortunately, most reformed people get Romans 7 wrong. I would be willing to debate anyone who believes Romans 7:13-24 describes a Christian who wants to do good but can’t find the ability to do the good he desires to do, because he is of the flesh, sold under sin. That’s a mess, and a total contradiction of Romans chapter 6. What sense does it make for the apostle Paul to tell believers that they should BY NO MEANS continue in sin so that grace may abound, because they are dead to sin and alive to God, and should no longer yield their members as instruments unto sin, but bear fruit to God. Then, even being an apostle, straightaway offer your own life as an example of the normal Christian life, being a believer who can’t do any of the good that he desires to do, and continue doing the evil that he doesn’t want to do. That’s just poor exegesis. And these are our best theologians who are offering you this commentary. I have answers. Text me if you want to understand this chapter. Only serious inquiries. No scoffers please.
@@TheGreatSkull123 , I would be glad to explain the 7th chapter of Romans to you, if you are willing to hear another perspective than the one you are currently holding. Are you willing? If you are willing, this could be a real eye opening experience for you.
@@wassupmrdani would like to understand romans 7! If it is talking about an unbeliever why does it say "it is no longer I who do it but sin tha dwells in me"? I have also heard a perspective that romans 7 is about a beliver who walks by his own strength and not by the spirit. What do you think about that view? How can we know this is about an unbeliever?
Thanks Pst. Derek Thomas & Pst. Steven Lawson *4 Yur Powerful, Blessful, Deep Perspective About Romans Chapter 7 Where I Say Just As Pst. Steven Lawson Has Said That Romans 7 Depicts a Jew Struggling With Sin Where Mostly Apostle Paul Says In Romans 7:24 That "What We Want 2 Do, We Don't Do But What We Don't Want 2 Do We Do" 4 Romans 7 Depicts Apostle Paul Struggling With Sin* & May Our Great Almighty God Bless Yu Pst. Derek Thomas & Pst. Steven Lawson 2gether With Lingonier Ministries So Very Much 4 Yu Always are a Blessing.🙏🙏🕊️🕊️🕊️
Paul is telling me about myself. He struggled just as I am struggling ! Jesus will deliver us one day. The day of my death is an end to this suffering .
Romans ch. 7 is neither of the two suggestions that you have made. Too many Christians read Romans chapter 7 and have big problems with it, simply because they have not read Chapters 5 and 6 first. Because of this they cannot 'enter into' chapter 8 where we see the true position of a Christian before God. In the early chapters, 1-3, the apostle Paul is showing how the Jew and the Gentile are 'now' on an even playing field. We are all sinners and there is no difference. The Jew has lost his 'national' privilege before God. Chapter 4 shows how Abraham was saved and counted righteous on the grounds of Faith. Chapter 5 tells us that we are justified before God and have peace with God through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Chapter 6 tells us that we still sin in this body of flesh and have to reckon ourselves to be dead to sin and alive unto God through Christ Jesus. There is a Law of sin in our body of flesh so if you do not understand the teaching of chapters 5 and 6, you will struggle with the sinful flesh that is in our fallen human nature. Up to chapter 5 v 11 it is dealing with 'sins' which are the fruit. From then onwards it is dealing with 'SIN' which is the root of the tree. We commit sins because we are sinners by nature. It is only when we realise and see our 'standing' before God is completely 'in Christ Jesus' and that we are alive through the indwelling Holy Spirit to God in Him. It is how God sees us. There is therefore now NO condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. We are no longer 'looked at' at being in the flesh, but IN THE SPIRIT. God sees us as dead and buried in baptism and alive unto God in Christ. It is no longer I that lives in this body of flesh, but Christ lives in us. The Law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus has set us free from the Law of sin and death when we walk by faith in the Spirit's power. It is not a 'weak' Christian, it is an 'untaught' Christian who does not understand his true standing in Christ Jesus and does not know that to reckon means to accept that it is a fact of how God sees us. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Jew.
I agree with everything, just want to clarify: Baptism means being baptised with the Holy Spirit. Water is just for show, you don’t have to be baptised by a preacher in water to be saved.
@@suzanavuksanovic222 At conversion, when a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and Eternal Life, that person is baptised with the Holy Spirit. It is the indwelling Holy Spirit which joins us to Christ in Heaven as members of His Body and He the Head of the Body. That however, is completely different from water baptism. When a believer (someone indwelt by the Holy Spirit), has his sins forgiven, he soon finds that there is a bigger problem. It is sin in his nature. We have a sinful nature on which the Law of Sin referred to in Romans ch. 7, works and though saved, he finds that things he does not want to do, he does, and things he does want to do, he does not do. In Romans ch. 5 down to verse 11, the apostle is dealing with 'sins', the fruit of 'sin'. We are justified by faith and have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. The 'sins' question is dealt with. However, from verse 12 onwards the subject is SIN. It goes on to explain the problem. It is only death solves it. Christ has entered into death and put way 'sin' by the sacrifice of Himself. He alone is resurrected from among the dead and is the first fruits of the 'new creation' In Christ Jesus. The apostle argues, does that mean we can sin and get away with it? No says Paul, how can someone who is dead to sin, live in it. That is what He refers to water Baptism. When we enter into the waters of Baptism we are claiming by faith to be 'buried' with Christ in death. In Romans there is no mention of coming out of death, like in Colossians and Ephesians. We 'reckon' ourselves to be dead to sin and alive unto God 'in Christ'. It is not longer us that lives in our bodies, but Christ that lives in us. That is what we reckon. Reckon means treated it as a done deal, or a fact of life. Read chapter 6 of Romans. Then when you come to chapter 7, if you don't understand chapter 6, that there is this 'law of sin' in your body of flesh which is a big problem. Chapter 8 tells us that we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. The Law of the Spirit makes us free from the Law of sin and death. There is so much more I could say, but Baptism is the outward showing of an inward work of faith, that you are dead to sin and the world and alive unto God in Christ Jesus, so when we walk in the Spirit there is victory of the sin in our nature. The Holy Spirit is the power to live and walk in the Spirit and Love for Christ is the motive and appreciation of God's love in Christ towards us Romans Ch. 8 right to the end of the chapter.
Ofcourse sinners want to hear this instead of if u sin your done like the bible actually says. Reminds of when the snake told eve "go ahead and eat the fruit God won't be mad at you" Samething
"When someone is fooled & indoctrinated to consider an invisible imaginary God or a glorified religious figure or a man-made book sacred & pray to, you'll constantly find motivated ignorance, dogma & mental acrobats trying to defend the sacredness."
Show your friends and family the love of our Heavenly Father by sharing with them the video ▶ How ridiculously easy it is to be saved ◀ by the channel David Benjamin in Christ.
If you want to truly understand Romans, Chapter 7, read Martyn Lloyd-Jones commentary on the chapter. No one else gives a clearer and more satisfying explanation. It is NOT about a believer's struggle with sin. Read the commentary.
@@gunterbanak4788 Just another opinion that’s all don’t care who it is...Who but a believer speaks in this language or would even ask who will deliver him from this body of sin??? We can all relate experientially as well that we aren’t sinless and want to be though.....
Maybe the body of sin is referring to is the corporate government and news organization body deceiving the people and poisoning them with chemicals and Corp media lies. It’s not the people’s fault their leaders and enforcers have been deceived they are just too lazy binge watching Netflix
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. (Rom 7:18-19) This is what the reformed really mean by having an active faith. Otherwise, this looks like a dead faith to me.
What Paul is talking about in Romans 7 is definitely me right now in my walk with God. It's very frustrating, and yet encouraging, because it means i must be truly saved if i am struggling with my sin. I would ask though that any believers that see this would pray for me that God would help deliver me from this struggle according to His will and plan for my life. Also, may God bless everyone at Ligonier and the people who come to this comment section. Amen!
It is me now. I pray all is well with you a year later!
It will be You and every Believer until We are "Delivered from this body of death", when We see CHRIST.
@@Chirhopher Amen 🙏
@mattyounts9400 It is. Thankyou and God Bless.
No my friend. It means you are in danger in the judgment
Unless one believes in perfectionism and does not believe that the old Adam still lurks within until we die, I think Paul is clearly saying that the Christian life is a battle. Before I became a Christian, I had no battle with my thoughts or the condition of my mind or my heart. What ever one wishes to do theologically with these passages, in the end, it is the reality of the Christian life else we would never have all the teachings on sanctification, those would be unnecessary. Any Christian who claims not to have a struggle with pride or selfishness or careless words or lust, or covetousness, is either deceived or not born again. The flesh lusts against the Spirit, thank God there is now no condemnation for those in Christ.
“ Believers struggle with sin not unbelievers “
The beginning says it’s talking to Jews.
Jews were unbelievers ( in Christ) who struggled with sin .
For Christians to say that well I must be saved if I struggle with sin.
No the context attributes the struggle with sin to the Jewish man before conversion, who would of had the law of God yet struggled to keep it
(Clarity for my response, I believe Romans 7 is talking about the Jewish experience underneath the Mosaic Law)
The first guy doesn’t give really any substantial argument to interpret that way besides “well thats how I feel.” Feelings should not guide are hermeneutics, context, reasoning, and a proper understanding of the literature should. On top of that, feelings are often very wrong.
The second guy tries to use the context, so props to him for making an argument. However, he talks about how “It's in the middle of the section on sanctification of the believer.” That is just simply false when looking at the context. Paul is addressing the Jews who are trying to force Gentiles to follow the Law. Thats why he address a possible argument in 6:15 “What then? Are we to sin because we are not under the *Law* but under grace?” His argument is primarily trying to say that Jews do not need to follow the law but that we are now free from being slaves to sin (Ofc that has implications for us, but his main point was about debunking the judaizers). He then completely ignores 7:1, “Or do you not know, brothers and sisters (for I am speaking to those who know the Law)”. Paul specifically says he’s talking to Jews. Then he goes into a marriage analogy and then why the Law was good. So to interpret it as a typical Christian lifestyle is to actually completely ignore the surrounding context. He also says. “’Oh wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of sin?’ Unbelievers aren't talking like that.” I agree, but it sounds like something a Jew would say living under the Law but failing to keep it even though he wants to. Finally he says “It's just a logical sequence. It's a linear argument in the book of Romans.” I agree with this. But if you read the context of Romans (especially reading it through), its abundantly clear the logical sequence is addressed to judaizers within the church. Hence, in 8:1, the logical sequence (therefore) and the temporal sequence (now), since living under the Law was a thing of the past.
I think Walt Russell (Professor at Biola University) does a great job of explaining my view. I highly recommend watching his lecture on UA-cam about it.
Thank you for your answer. It really was a great answer...And Steven cracking us up mid way through. I need and love my savior.
It helped me alot. Thank you for sharing.
It's basically simultaneously justified and sinner (simul justus et peccator), isn't it?
Thank you so much for uploading this discussion on Romans 7, Ligonier Ministries! I have been wrestling Scripturally with this passage for quite some time now since some of the most esteemed commentaries on the subject matter of the said verse, e.g. Douglas Mooʼs commentary on the Letter to the Romans from the NIGTC series, take the view that it was the Apostle Paulʼs 'monologue' during his pre-conversion struggles with sin and the Law.
Dr. Lawson said it best also and I side with him on it that the logical order of the chapter speaks much of these Chapter 7 verses about the believerʼs on-going battle with the sin of the flesh.
I will forever be grateful to the Lord for the grace He provides each day for all of us sinners who are saved by His grace alone through faith alone. Though we falter often, His mercies are new every morning.
And in light of this, Martin Lutherʼs remarkable statement regarding the believerʼs life in this present age rings ever true: “Simul Justus et Peccator.”
Lord, sanctify us with Your grace each day. May Your Holy Spirit be our guide in living a more Christ-like life each day until You call us home-all for the glory of the Father.
Amen.
Nikko R. Amen and Amen 🙏🙌👏
Ever met a Christian who does not struggle with sins of the flesh? These scriptures address that.
No they don't. Romans 8 describes the struggle of Christians with the help of the Spirit. Romans 7 is pre-conversion.
CLEARLY Paul is talking in PRESENT TIME about his PAST LIFE when he was a pharasiee then JESUS DELIVERED HIM!!! AMEN HALELLUJAH!🙌❤ JESUS SAID, GO AND SIN NO MORE! BE YE PERFECT AS OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT! IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS! 4JESUS, THE AUTHOR OF ETERNAL SALVATION TO THOSE THAT OBEY HIM!
You think you’re perfect and without sin now that you are saved?
@@RT-qz5ciI think he is saying no where in any of scripture does God try to encourage us in our advancement to becoming more like Jesus by being ok with the fact that we sin and be in fellowship so that we can all just agree with a mindset of you have your sins I have mine so let's just be cool with it and keep hopelessly failing.
“That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away.”
Paul is talking about “I of myself”. In this way sin is stronger than I am of myself. I try to do good but sin lies at hand. It comes and is present when I try to do good. But we are not “I of myself” Christians. We are in the Spirit and in chapter8 it says that we overcome the deeds of the body by walking in the Spirit. This not about a preconversion experience or two natures having a box on.
I'd encourage you to read romans 8 if you were confused about romans 7
Roman 7 is where too many reformed believers live- purposely focusing on themselves and their sins - focusing on the flesh and putting themselves back under the demands of the law, thus making their faith void (the righteousness of faith). If we “Likewise” reckon ourselves dead to sin (Romans 6:11) we don’t struggles with sin (chapter 7) then you can live in chapter 8.
This exactly what I was to add to the discussion. No need for that now. Thank you for proper biblical interpretation and contextualization.
@Desire Of All NationsNo one’s pretending that it doesn’t exist but believers should recon themselves dead to it “likewise” (in the same manner) as Jesus who died once and for all to sin. The Greek word for reckon is logizomai which means to declare it so because it is so - not to pretend that it isn’t so. This empowers a believer to live right in a way that goes beyond self effort at behavior modification to the demand of the law which is the strength of sin.
What a solid answer!
Crazy just was reading this passage at church yesterday!
I think Dr MLJ's view of Romans 7 developed over time as he moved from Calvinistic Methodism to Congregationalism, see his sermon 'Sanctification in Romans 6 to 8' in his 'Great Biblical Doctrines' series
i will worship my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for all eternity🙏🙏
Jesus is just messenger not a God you should worship_____use ur mind bro!
@@kingkeong1507 Are you LDS? Have you read the Gospel of John? There are many places where Jesus declares himself to be God. In fact, that's one reason the Jews were so upset with him because he claimed to be God. In John 8:58 Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Even just there, he declared himself to be Yahweh.
I wonder if these Reform guys are even saved because they come up with so much goofy, unbiblical nonsense like TULIP. Now here they are interpreting Romans 7 as being the experience of a Christian struggling with sin. Paul in chapers 7 and 8 is contrasting the unregenerate man under the law with the regenerate man, who has the Holy Spirit empowering him to live a life pleasing to God. Roman 8:3 clearly states
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"
Definitely a Believer. Only believers are truly aware of their fallen state.
How is that possible? A believer who still has no chance to to overcome sin? Romans 8 says that a Christian no longer have to sin but the person described in Romans 7 has no other opportunity than to sin...
@@raphaeltreise4174 so you haven't sin at all after you're saved? even thoughts can be judged as sinful.
No. It's clearly pre-conversion.
That's circular reasoning based on incorrect reformed theology.
Read First John and stop being deceived!
We are saved inspite of our actions!
Paul used editorial I in Romans chapter 7
It's pretty simple, chapter 7 is discussing the law of sin and death. 8:2 says the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death. So Romans 7 is absolutely not a believer, it's a lost person. But people love to twist it to reassure themselves in their sin.
Yes. It's clearly pre-conversion
Wow. This was great and awkward watching in October of 2024… 😬
We will take a simple little verse and show you why it is not addressed to the natural man, Ecclesiastes 3:15:
From daily experience, I believe it's a Christian. We are sanctified and over time our desires are changed. "I will give you the desires of your heart." We struggle with sin less over time I believe, as we gain self control through the Holy Spirit.
Anyone who would think St. Paul is referring to an unbeliever in Romans 7, isn’t in touch with his own corruption. Our heart is desperately wicked, who can know it? One who has been enlightened by God Himself.
NO.
Very well answer thank you that is correct peace be with you🍷🍞
Let’s call a spade a spade: Any view that denies Romans 7 is dealing with a Christian’s struggle with sin is heresy. The text is utterly explicit. The apostle Paul cannot do what he wants. That which he does, he hates. And that which he loves, he does not.
Nonsense. Romans 7 is about Paul's pre-conversion experience. What a load of excuses.
@@Mrm1985100 Actually, Paul is explaining that now that he’s saved, he has the best possible “excuse” for sinning: ‘It wasn’t actually myself that sinned, it was something uncontrollable within me that sinned’!!!
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:17 KJV
@@ProjectCould Read chapters 6 and 8 of Romans and you'll see that Romans 7 is clearly pre-conversion
@@Mrm1985100 Unless you believe in sinless perfection in this life, then Romans 7 is absolutely talking about post-conversion when Paul talks about his struggle with sin
Very helpful. Thanks.
Someone who has Romans 7 revealed will be persecuted for truly revealing it to others. It is a chapter that could change someone's whole view of the bible because it is possible to be forever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth
EXACTLY preacher two I totally agree
He is looking at the strata of things. Sin is powerful to a Christian. When we try to do good we are overcome by sin in our own strength. We do not become a Christian and then try to overcome sin in our own strength. We are dependent on the Spirit. The law is the law of sin and death when we act in this way. But we have received the Spirit if we belong to Christ.
Sin is devastatingly powerful, no doubt. But Christians have access to a greater power, which is God's grace. Second part of Romans 5 depicts this two powers that operate in human lives and Paul shows that the power of sin is not even comparable to the power of grace. The believer's victory is assured and climaxed in Romans 5:17. So believer is not a wretched man, but a triumphant man! Wretched man is the one who is under the law and wretchedness is not what gospel produces in a believer 's life. It produces righteousness , peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. That doesn't lament " what a wretched man I" but rejoices in, "what a blessed man I". At best Romans 7 begins with a discussion on "Is the law carnal? He explains Law is spiritual only, but it is not compatible with sin. Not because law is inferior, but it was not designed for sanctification. It was designed to magnify sin. Such simple is Romans 7.
Right on!
Are we to ask God the Father or man for the answer ? We'll get it only through Christ People. God LOVES us so much that he will not leave us the way we are.
Glory unto Glory revelation unto revelation men and brethren. 👍
According to the Bible, God ordains teachers for His people (the church).
@@iggy1644 True my brother . Had I said anything against the Word of God that prompted such a reply on your behalf ?
May God bless all of the redeemed according to his purposes for if God be for us who can be against us for God is not a respector of persons but to those who do right and we know who we Look to right ? Selah 👍
A Believer Made New in CHRIST. We must Keep the exact same Hermeneutic as what We have for the TRINITY and The DEITY Of CHRIST, Justification by GOD'S Grace In CHRIST, through Faith In CHRIST, to GOD TRIUNE Glory In Magnifying The SON.
Deception, not struggle! Romans 7 is the cheese in the grilled cheese sandwich of 6, 7, and 8.
It is the continuation of the principle Paul begins to develop in chapter 6 concerning
the DEATH we DIE in baptism. Paul USES himself as the "self-examining Jew" who knows
that he must keep the Law. He says it RIGHT THERE in the text. "Therefore, my brethren,
you also have BECOME DEAD to the law through (being baptized into) the (crucified) body of
Christ." He now REALIZES "If then, I do what I "will" not to do, I AGREE with the law - that it is good.
But now, it is NO LONGER I who DO it, but SIN that dwells in me." But, we're NOT SLAVES to sin,
anymore, so STOP doing it! Tell sin, "Sorry, find somebody else! I'm not your puppet anymore!"
Yeah, we all get fooled, because, maybe, we're not paying attention. But as soon as you
become aware - walk away - and apologize to God! It's easy, if you've been born AGAIN.
If NOT, these words are POWERLESS against sin (sons of Sceva)! So then, you need to repent
and be baptized into Christ and receive the Holy Spirit, or else, as Paul says in chapter 8, YOU
don't BELONG to Him! So fix it, already!
Can you please explain "it is no longer I who do it but sin that dwells in me". Is this talking about an unbeliever? If so, why does the bible say that it is not longer I who do it?
@@matilda95. Hello! This is part of the letter of introduction Paul is writing to the Romans that he will be visiting.
Jesus regularly informs him of The Plan. It begins in Acts 20.17-35, where Paul will be sent to war in Jerusalem, then in the Mediterranean Sea, then at Malta, and finally Rome. This is a spiritual war between "the believer" and the unseen enemy that constantly opposes us. The Law is spiritual...and GOOD! We love to please God, but our enemy hates us and attacks us with false condemnations daily. In Romans 6, Paul explains that we are DEAD to this world THROUGH baptism. Neither the RCC nor the Reformers grasp what dying with Christ means. This is part of "the deception" Paul told the Ephesians about. It continues in the church in false doctrines to this very day, "changing" God's instructions and promises at will - regularly! The military bombing quip, "you can tell when you are over the target when you start receiving the flak" applies here. God has forgiven us, but we are assaulted with false "condemnations." Paul is saying "just keep on keeping on" and hold on to the promise of eternal life. We have received the Holy Spirit through baptism, just as Jesus and Peter told us. It's ALL OVER that Book of Acts that protestant churchmen don't want you to read! Imagine that! Whose side are they on?
I got it! So good
brilliant
The context describes someone who is under the law and thus is condemned by the law. Paul’s emphasis is that we cannot meet the requirements of the law, no matter how much we may want to! The law is righteous yet brings death. The only thing that can free us from our body of sin and death is Jesus. Chapter 8 describes someone who has been freed from chapter 7.
Then why do u still sin post conversion?
@@elijahguillory4981 Because we still have a body (our flesh) that is filled with sin. No one who takes Romans 7 as not the typical Christian experience claims that Christians don't struggle with sin. That's a complete straw man.
@@Micahproductions to conclude that chapter 7 is a preconversion person is strawman as well and shows improper translation of the previous 6 chapters. It's very clear, halfway thru chapter 5, Paul has switched to the redeemed and definitely by chapter 6 he has, just look at his opening statement. The book Romans is in levels, and to backtrack to chapters 1-3 when he got to chapter 7 would make no sense. Especially since the original Scripts had no chapters or verses. Also Paul's language when you read it in the Greek with its notations and tense further confirms this as post conversion
@@elijahguillory4981 I don’t think you understand what a straw man fallacy is. It’s when you misrepresent a view. I don’t believe the two audiences in Romans are Christian’s and non christians, it’s the church in Rome made up of gentiles and messianic Jews. So yes, Paul does address the gentiles earlier, however he does move to addressing Jews later on. On top of that, Romans 7:1 says, “Or do you not know, brothers and sisters (for I am speaking to those who know the Law),” so it’s clear he’s talking to the Jews within the Church. So it makes a lot of sense that Paul is thus talking about what it feels like to be under the Law in Romans 7.
@@Micahproductions we'll agree to disagree here brother because we can't assume what's not stated when what is stated is clear beginning at v13. Bless u bro. Grace & Peace
Unfortunately, most reformed people get Romans 7 wrong. I would be willing to debate anyone who believes Romans 7:13-24 describes a Christian who wants to do good but can’t find the ability to do the good he desires to do, because he is of the flesh, sold under sin. That’s a mess, and a total contradiction of Romans chapter 6. What sense does it make for the apostle Paul to tell believers that they should BY NO MEANS continue in sin so that grace may abound, because they are dead to sin and alive to God, and should no longer yield their members as instruments unto sin, but bear fruit to God. Then, even being an apostle, straightaway offer your own life as an example of the normal Christian life, being a believer who can’t do any of the good that he
desires to do, and continue doing the evil that he doesn’t want to do. That’s just poor exegesis. And these are our best theologians who are offering you this commentary.
I have answers. Text me if you want to understand this chapter. Only serious inquiries. No scoffers please.
Agreed! Romans 7 is definitely talking about the Jewish experience under the Law.
Yes, it's clearly pre-conversion
@@TheGreatSkull123 , I would be glad to explain the 7th chapter of Romans to you, if you are willing to hear another perspective than the one you are currently holding. Are you willing? If you are willing, this could be a real eye opening experience for you.
Well… it’s ok to disagree.
@@wassupmrdani would like to understand romans 7! If it is talking about an unbeliever why does it say "it is no longer I who do it but sin tha dwells in me"? I have also heard a perspective that romans 7 is about a beliver who walks by his own strength and not by the spirit. What do you think about that view?
How can we know this is about an unbeliever?
Thanks Pst. Derek Thomas & Pst. Steven Lawson *4 Yur Powerful, Blessful, Deep Perspective About Romans Chapter 7 Where I Say Just As Pst. Steven Lawson Has Said That Romans 7 Depicts a Jew Struggling With Sin Where Mostly Apostle Paul Says In Romans 7:24 That "What We Want 2 Do, We Don't Do But What We Don't Want 2 Do We Do" 4 Romans 7 Depicts Apostle Paul Struggling With Sin* & May Our Great Almighty God Bless Yu Pst. Derek Thomas & Pst. Steven Lawson 2gether With Lingonier Ministries So Very Much 4 Yu Always are a Blessing.🙏🙏🕊️🕊️🕊️
Paul is telling me about myself. He struggled just as I am struggling ! Jesus will deliver us one day. The day of my death is an end to this suffering .
Romans ch. 7 is neither of the two suggestions that you have made.
Too many Christians read Romans chapter 7 and have big problems with it, simply because they have not read Chapters 5 and 6 first. Because of this they cannot 'enter into' chapter 8 where we see the true position of a Christian before God.
In the early chapters, 1-3, the apostle Paul is showing how the Jew and the Gentile are 'now' on an even playing field. We are all sinners and there is no difference. The Jew has lost his 'national' privilege before God. Chapter 4 shows how Abraham was saved and counted righteous on the grounds of Faith. Chapter 5 tells us that we are justified before God and have peace with God through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Chapter 6 tells us that we still sin in this body of flesh and have to reckon ourselves to be dead to sin and alive unto God through Christ Jesus. There is a Law of sin in our body of flesh so if you do not understand the teaching of chapters 5 and 6, you will struggle with the sinful flesh that is in our fallen human nature. Up to chapter 5 v 11 it is dealing with 'sins' which are the fruit. From then onwards it is dealing with 'SIN' which is the root of the tree. We commit sins because we are sinners by nature. It is only when we realise and see our 'standing' before God is completely 'in Christ Jesus' and that we are alive through the indwelling Holy Spirit to God in Him. It is how God sees us. There is therefore now NO condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. We are no longer 'looked at' at being in the flesh, but IN THE SPIRIT. God sees us as dead and buried in baptism and alive unto God in Christ. It is no longer I that lives in this body of flesh, but Christ lives in us. The Law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus has set us free from the Law of sin and death when we walk by faith in the Spirit's power.
It is not a 'weak' Christian, it is an 'untaught' Christian who does not understand his true standing in Christ Jesus and does not know that to reckon means to accept that it is a fact of how God sees us. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Jew.
I agree with everything, just want to clarify: Baptism means being baptised with the Holy Spirit. Water is just for show, you don’t have to be baptised by a preacher in water to be saved.
@@suzanavuksanovic222 At conversion, when a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and Eternal Life, that person is baptised with the Holy Spirit. It is the indwelling Holy Spirit which joins us to Christ in Heaven as members of His Body and He the Head of the Body.
That however, is completely different from water baptism. When a believer (someone indwelt by the Holy Spirit), has his sins forgiven, he soon finds that there is a bigger problem. It is sin in his nature. We have a sinful nature on which the Law of Sin referred to in Romans ch. 7, works and though saved, he finds that things he does not want to do, he does, and things he does want to do, he does not do.
In Romans ch. 5 down to verse 11, the apostle is dealing with 'sins', the fruit of 'sin'. We are justified by faith and have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. The 'sins' question is dealt with. However, from verse 12 onwards the subject is SIN. It goes on to explain the problem. It is only death solves it. Christ has entered into death and put way 'sin' by the sacrifice of Himself. He alone is resurrected from among the dead and is the first fruits of the 'new creation' In Christ Jesus.
The apostle argues, does that mean we can sin and get away with it? No says Paul, how can someone who is dead to sin, live in it. That is what He refers to water Baptism. When we enter into the waters of Baptism we are claiming by faith to be 'buried' with Christ in death. In Romans there is no mention of coming out of death, like in Colossians and Ephesians. We 'reckon' ourselves to be dead to sin and alive unto God 'in Christ'. It is not longer us that lives in our bodies, but Christ that lives in us. That is what we reckon. Reckon means treated it as a done deal, or a fact of life. Read chapter 6 of Romans. Then when you come to chapter 7, if you don't understand chapter 6, that there is this 'law of sin' in your body of flesh which is a big problem. Chapter 8 tells us that we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. The Law of the Spirit makes us free from the Law of sin and death. There is so much more I could say, but Baptism is the outward showing of an inward work of faith, that you are dead to sin and the world and alive unto God in Christ Jesus, so when we walk in the Spirit there is victory of the sin in our nature.
The Holy Spirit is the power to live and walk in the Spirit and Love for Christ is the motive and appreciation of God's love in Christ towards us Romans Ch. 8 right to the end of the chapter.
It is a lie to say that this is a lost man in Rom.7:14-24 and who is the father of lie's
It's clearly pre-conversion
Ofcourse sinners want to hear this instead of if u sin your done like the bible actually says.
Reminds of when the snake told eve "go ahead and eat the fruit God won't be mad at you"
Samething
"When someone is fooled & indoctrinated to consider an invisible imaginary God or a glorified religious figure or a man-made book sacred & pray to, you'll constantly find motivated ignorance, dogma & mental acrobats trying to defend the sacredness."
Lol...this is just normal Christian experience....
Show your friends and family the love of our Heavenly Father by sharing with them the video ▶ How ridiculously easy it is to be saved ◀ by the channel David Benjamin in Christ.
Both. All sin.
If you want to truly understand Romans, Chapter 7, read Martyn Lloyd-Jones commentary on the chapter. No one else gives a clearer and more satisfying explanation. It is NOT about a believer's struggle with sin. Read the commentary.
@@gunterbanak4788 it is though. It is about a believer struggling with sin
@@gunterbanak4788 Just another opinion that’s all don’t care who it is...Who but a believer speaks in this language or would even ask who will deliver him from this body of sin??? We can all relate experientially as well that we aren’t sinless and want to be though.....
Maybe the body of sin is referring to is the corporate government and news organization body deceiving the people and poisoning them with chemicals and Corp media lies. It’s not the people’s fault their leaders and enforcers have been deceived they are just too lazy binge watching Netflix
You better study Neville Goddard to wake up from natural man that outside believers, when its on inside you.
Goddard was a heretic and a false prophet.
@@StallionFernando Proof it you can't, you don't even who you are.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. (Rom 7:18-19)
This is what the reformed really mean by having an active faith. Otherwise, this looks like a dead faith to me.