Thanks! Yeah, I think a lot of us are more hesitant to submit to CGC for a lot of reasons. I'm definitely not "done" with them, but am certainly on pause. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Im a collector who just wants the book protected, and CGC has the best-looking slab. If someone can provide a better-looking slab than cgc, im definitely willing to try them out.
I agree, and that's one of the reasons I'm still using CGC for now even though I obviously have some concerns with their product. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Spot on. The high volume spenders get the better grades and there’s nothing we can do about it. Best bet is to find one of those high volume dealers and submit your book through them.
Great vid overall. 2 things: 1) The notion that CGC's grade inflation is "to keep the Sellers happy" requires there to be an equal alternative in the marketplace, i.e. "if we don't keep the customer happy, they'll go to our competitor." But there is no "legitimate" competition as every seller knows that a CBCS slab of a given book in a given grade only sells for 70-80% of the CGC equivalent. As such, for sellers, there is no incentive to go to CBCS over CGC if they're simply not happy with the CGC grades. Not saying grade inflation isn't happening; just saying that I don't believe that "keeping sellers happy" is the reason. 2) I have long advocated to my comic friends that they NOT pursue 9.8's due to the extreme markup in price over a 9.6 (significant money for insignificant difference). Given the size difference in prices between a 9.6 and a 9.8 (and a 9.9 and a 10), I'm inclined to believe that the new 9.9's will only significantly impact the 9.8's with little to no changes in 9.6's and no changes in 9.4's or lower. Consequently, the new 9.9's should only impact that segment of the market that chases 9.8's and will be a nonfactor to the rest of us.
Great thoughts here. I totally agree with your second point and have one counterpoint to your first one to consider: I completely agree that CGC's motivation to keep sellers happy requires a competitor and that CBCS does not fulfill this role. *However*, I would suggest that the true "competitor" for CGC is people "keeping their books raw." Of course, I am only one person, but I know that a year ago I had been submitting about 25 books every 3 months, but so far I have submitted 0 books in 2024. I'll eventually do another submission, but now I am being much more selective in which books that I'll be sending, so maybe I'll do one submission a year at this point. I think other collectors have shifted similarly, so I personally think CGC is adjusting their standards to try get back our business and keep us happy. Unfortunately, I think this will bring in short term revenue, but alienate some customers like me even more. There's lots more to be said, but I've already written a short essay here, haha. Thanks so much for watching and the well thought out comment!
I would argue that CBCS is actually a viable competitor...however, it is the comic community that is severely overleveraged on CGC that won't accept them as a viable option. Their cases are arguable better and their new labels are a vast improvement for the folks who complained about the labels...there is competition, but the community simply won't accept them...that's on the community. The pricing is only relevant to the quick flippers, but there is absolutely no reason for CBCS to be valued lower, other than the CGC sellers saying that's the way it should be...the power to change and accept is in the communities hands, but it's so overleveraged and resistant to evolution or change that it won't happen.
@@feedmyeyes4928 For the record, I love CBCS; I have a number of their slabs in my collection, and I 100% agree that there is no reason for a CBCS slab to sell for less than a CGC slab of the same book in the same grade. But the unfortunate reality is that it does. If we were talking about only a 5-7% price difference, Sellers would be much more inclined to use CBCS. But with a 20-30% difference, that can make a world of difference for that Seller's cash flow. And I'm not speaking specifically of part-time flippers or folks (like me) who sell some on the side now and then to fund their hobby, but I'm speaking more about the full-time dealers and LCS owners, the folks for whom this difference makes a very real impact on their livelihood. If folks like that were to switch to CBCS, a 30% haircut on revenues could be disastrous for their business. For folks like that, CBCS is not a legitimate option. Much like I don't understand why the market values a 9.8 so much more than a 9.6, I don't understand why the market values a CGC label so much more than a CBCS label. I'm sure we've all heard the saying "buy the book, not the grade," right? Maybe it's time for a new saying: "buy the book, not the label."
Great point! I do understand that they have to pay more to insure higher valued books, but it seems unlikely that it's enough to justify how much extra they charge for them.
@@Whalewraithmakes sense they have to insure, if they receive a Millon $ and God forbid there is a fire and rhe conic is destroyed, big big loss for both parties!
That's a good point. There's certainly some arbitrariness in what CGC has considered to be "restoration" and they have definitely made a lot money (through CCS) in allowing for pressing, which has also led the "inflation" that you are describing. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@wahoocomics The seem to also be damaging books in the slabbing process and ignoring it, which means there could be many 9.8 (and even 9.9) labeled books, that are really not that grade anymore due to being damaged in the slab. This is just the newest video I know of, but it can be searched for, with videos going back years. ua-cam.com/video/AEh7OtqAyt8/v-deo.html
I sent a few comics in through a dealer at Terrificon. Never again, my comics came back damaged with bad grades. One was cracked the others with plastic chips floating inside. Either it was switched out, or damaged by the dealer, CGC or USPS... OR all of the above. Too many crooks in collecting, the grading just made it worse. I didn't send them back, I learned an expensive lesson.
Dang man, that's rough. My hearts hurts and they're not even my comics! Yeah, *everyone* could screw up, but likely *no one* would own up to it. That's one of the suckiest parts about grading. Thanks for watching and commenting!
More great Wahoo Wisdom! As w consumer my biggest expectation when it comes to grading companies is long term consistency. Artificially manipulating grades is not a good look. Thanks for sharing and Good Collecting👍❤️
Thank you! Yes, long term consistency is the key for grading to be sustainable. I hope CGC does not continue to make decisions to damage their brand long term in exchange for short term revenue. Thanks for watching and commenting!
This all is based on a premise that CGC is inherently dishonest. Although I would not argue they potentially are, no real evidence has been presented either. It is logical to assume they are seeking higher profits and alter their product to achieve them as needed. That does not necessarily imply dishonesty. I personally am not bothered by what 9.8 collectors think or do. I find 9.8 grade hunting to be rather silly to begin with unless someone hunts 10s. It has always been a moving target.
I hear what you're saying and I think a big question is what does it mean to be dishonest. Did CGC ever say they would never give out 9.9s and 10s? No. In that sense, they have not been dishonest. But, do they promise to be consistent in their grading? Yes. And, have they been? No as it seems clear that they have changed their standards with the numbers of 9.9s suddenly coming out. To your point, the reason why people have been hunting 9.8s is that CGC had effectively declared 9.8s to be 10s. Did they outright say that? No. But, that is how they have worked. Now all of a sudden the bar on 9.9s has been lifted (Automatic Comics has a lot of great videos revealing the large number of 9.9s coming on the market) and a lot of people are feeling burned by the lack of consistency. Anyways, a lot more could be said, but I'll pause here, haha. Thanks for watching the video and leaving a thoughtful comment!
@@wahoocomics I agree with you. Every company promises the best and most efficient and reliable service. I believe their grading has always been suspect so to me they are consistently inconsistent. 😁
I hear that, and it'll be interesting to see if dealers start losing business because people don't "trust" their CGC graded books as being "authentic." Thanks for watching and commenting!
Great video. Too big to fail? I feel like the statement is true but a statement isn’t going to stop something from failing. I didn’t know that about the dollar I always thought the gold reserve backed it up. Always learning something new from your videos. It really is crazy and scary to think that really if you get enough people to feel the dollar is garbage the system could collapse easily. It really is crazy the amount of 9.9 grades that have been put out recently. I would add in businesses as ones that will get 9.9s. My 9.9 was from a preorder I did which they guaranteed 9.6 or better. I lucked out they saw fit to give me the 9.9 lol. I’ve seen plenty other companies though selling 9.9s privately for crazy prices. Great job. Thanks for sharing. Be well. -Dave 🤙 12:19
Thanks man! Yeah, the dollar situation since 1971 is definitely scary. It's one of the main reasons why people are getting more interested in crypto. I haven't bought any crypto yet, but am seriously considering starting to invest. Also, congrats on getting a 9.9 and great point on businesses also being the ones that will benefit more than the individual customer.
Macho Man would be proud this presentation from The Wahoo. Oh, yeah! The subtle coordination of the shirt and the floor rug had me mesmerized throughout this video. My favorite piece of the argument is how the higher grades go to the auction houses and very visible dealers. The Metropolis guy who seems to have a monthly holy grail in a 9.9 fall into his hands is crazy. These people are trading the immediate gratification of social media attention and a graded-comic high sale for killing the hobby slowly in the long run. The question now for me is how much longer can we all participate in the thrill of grading raw comics and boosting value before it all evaporates.
🤣🤣🤣 The Wahoo loves this comment, lol. And, yeah, man, I have that same question for the reasons you mentioned. As you know, I *love* the thrill of grading comics, but at some point it becomes no longer worth it. Ugh, haha
This right here. Slabbing books is a ton of fun but in order for it to continue working, slabs have to maintain their value otherwise, there are other (better?) ways to protect your valuable books other than grading. In 2024 cash is king and you're right on - dealers, influencers and collectors with huge followings are chasing short term bucks at the very real chance that doing so might collapse the hobby in the long term. Of course, if these guys (who I will not yet call grifters) continue to magically get their hands on 9.9s and 10s and then flip them back out into the market, they might have the $ to retire happy while the rest of us are left holding the bag. Personally I've taken a big step back on what books I send to CGC, particularly with the ultra-modern stuff. I just don't believe that any of it will be worth it, save for the "grails" like UF4 and EoSV2. I also don't mention incentives or ratios because I don't dabble in them except for once or twice per year, and only if I am in love with the cover art.
Compelling and logical argument! This phenomenon is even happening in colleges and universities with grades. And my wife -- a retired art teacher -- told me just today, that in 2019-2020, the last year before she retired, that the county administrators directed all teachers to change ZEROs (where work was literally not turned in at all) to D's. So theoretically, no one could get an F. Yeah, I know...faulty analogy...I guess? Maybe? Back to graded comics, I don't know what we can do. One avenue is to simply bail. Or, I can just keep dancing with the devil. But where does that leave me with all my graded comics (including a GSXM #1 CGC 9.4 OW/W, an X-Men #94 9.4, and so on)... I don't know. Sure, I just like them because they're awesome, but I also don't want sit idly and bear witness to a massive erosion in their value before the inevitable day comes when I sell them. I'm paralyzed right now.
Thank you! And, yes, I 100% agree that the same thing is happening with higher education. Harvard, etc. has realized that people aren't going to pay $60000 for B's, so they have made a decision to inflate grades (just like CGC is doing) to satisfy their customers (the students and their parents). Also, that's crazy about how your wife's county school system directed 0s to be turned into Ds. There's so many problems with that! And, yeah, I'm in the same conundrum about what to do with my graded comics. I especially feel that way about some of my more "valuable" 9.8s. Are my Wolverine 1 and Secret Wars 8 9.8s even special anymore? I *love* those books but do I sell them now and then buy a 9.9 later once there's a ton of them and those prices settle? Ugh, haha. Thanks for watching and leaving a well thought out comment!
It is competition that forces companies to change for the better. When Wal-Mart does something that the masses don't like, the masses go to Target or other similar competitors. Eventually Wal-Mart gets the picture and makes changes for the better. The people may pay more for the same item(s)--i.e. take a hit financially for a time, but they feel that it's more important in the long run to let their voices be heard with their $$ and give the company a real incentive to change. Monopolies are generally not good. People have deem CGC as the top of the hill and won't even entertain and/or promote other competition. I see rant videos all the time about damaged books during shipping, damages occurring during the grading process, lost books, grades that are way off, etc., etc. In the next video, they are showing the next batch of comics that they will be sending in. Well, what incentive does CGC has to change if all the person is going to do is gripe and not make any behavioral changes on their end. Answer: None! Thus, CGC won't change and things will continue to trend in a negative way for consumers. If people are not willing to vote with their $$ and force changes, then those changes won't happen. Even more so, things will continue to get worse and people will continue to say, thanks for the hit, may I have another. What are people willing to do in order to force change for the better? If the answer is nothing, than nothing will change! Just my observations outside looking in.
Great points, and I agree with pretty much all that you've said here. For me, I have drastically reduced the number of books that I'm sending to CGC. I was sending about 25 books in every 3 months a year ago, but I have not sent any in for all of 2024. However, there are two caveats: 1. Although I am one of several that I think are trying to bring about change this way, unfortunately, the changes that CGC seem to be making are the ones that will bring in short term revenue. In other words, they've lost much of the money that I once gave them, but now they are servicing their "addicts" so to speak (using the language from your comment here, haha) by passing out 9.9s, etc. These 9.9s only foster the addiction. Eventually, I think CGC will be in big trouble if they continue down this path, but like most, they seem to be focused on short term gain without working about the long term impact. 2. Even though I have reduced by submitting significantly, I have not cut it out altogether at least at this point, because I do try to get the hobby to fund itself and some books still gain too much value from being graded for me to pass it up completely. Anyways, there's lots more to be said here, but I've already typed up an essay, lol. Thanks so much for watching and the well thought out comment!
Great follow up. I fully understand where you’re coming from and the points that you made. I know that several others have slowed/stopped their submissions as well. More of this is needed, but they keep dangling new, irresistible carrots. We’ll see how things trend over time. All the best.
All of your statements ring true. I've always believed that many 9.9 and 10.0 were just placed into a 9.8 grade because that's what they were told to do regardless in years past. Now that the end of the mass grading years was soon approaching as well as all of the scandals that plagued CGC, this has caused the coming years of mass 9.9 + grades to begin. That 9.9 Giant -size X-Men will be just the tip of the insane census increase for those grades. But why does a 9.9 have to be 2X or more of the price of a 9.8? Will this cause graders to be monetarily motivated to lean towards the 9.9 grade to increase CGC's cut of the price of grading? Remove this and other incentives for third party graders to be tempted in what is basically a subjective opinion made by humans when it concerns 0.1 differences. It's only going to get crazier. And not to the benefit of the hobby.
Lots of great points here. Yep, CGC stands to earn a boatload more of money by giving out 9.9s since they can charge more with the higher FMV. I think the price of 9.9s will eventually come down some once the supply is higher, but still will be well above what a 9.8 is now. I agree things are going to get crazier and to the detriment of the hobby.
Thanks and congratulations on the 9.9! Although you're only one customer, I do think it's very telling that you *just happened* to get it now when they're seemingly inflating their grades. Thanks for sharing and commenting!
CGC and professional comics grading saved comic collecting, but now everyone wants to hit them as if there's some type of conspiracy... I will consistently get my more valuable keys graded because they deserve to be preserved. I think merchants of comics don't like grading because of the cost of grading and pressing cuts into their profit margins. They can take advantage of buyers' ignorance of the true condition of a book and get a higher price. I can't believe how many video blogs there are against cgc. It is an all out attack. Stop the Madness
I hear you and certainly agree that having CGC is better than just relying on comic book dealer grading. That said, they have clearly made a change to their grading standards imo, which is a betrayal of their past customers who have spent tons of money with the understanding that they wouldn't. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Thanks, and I agree there is still value in a third party grader...even though I obviously think the system has flaws and can be improved, it's still probably a better system than we had before third party grading came along.
Interesting video, but I think you need to be careful in suggesting whether or not a given company is a fraud, because you may find yourself on the wrong end of a legal-action. Also, I don't think that CGC consistently gives a higher grading to comics that are submitted by auction-houses. Buyers aren't stupid, and with a little experience and time they are able to assess whether or not a given grade matches up with the comic. If buyers/bidders start feeling that certain auction-houses are selling off comics that are consistently over-graded, they will very likely stop participating in those auctions, and will start sharing their experience with other bidders/buyers as well --- which is the death knell for the auction-house.
Good point. However, it begs the question of how much do collectors care about whether or not a book is overgraded. My feeling is that they generally are fine with overgraded books, because they still command the same value and respect among collectors. The grade seems to matter much more than the actual condition. But, of course, I could be wrong.
CGC is a product of comic speculator crash of 90s. It's very existence is to make people believe their comics still have value. Strangely, that comic crash still effecting us. Eventually, market will come to a saturation level(again) that people will realize their assets don't have the value they desired. I agree, CGC feels like a scam. But it is hard to predict the next crash. Some say current comic book market just reached to the point of pre speculator boom levels. Lots of crossovers, variant covers, constat reboots, even ebay to some extent(not intentionally) fueling the boom(if its happening even). Personally, I don't think there will be another crash like 90s. At least not on that scale. People and traders were buying massive amounts during 90s. I am guessing publishers are not printing large amounts like old days. These days we have different problems. This time it is the abundance of money that inflating the prices. Also CGC has a hand in speculation. Nice vid, have a nice day! btw comics are not for slabbing they are for reading! 😊
Great points! Yes, I agree this is different from the 90s. Like you said, there is less supply...and I would say also more genuine demand for the true keys (not modern variant covers, etc.), so though we may still see the market drop, it is unlikely to be a 90s level crash. Thanks for watching and leaving an insightful comment!
I never liked CGC or their cases and that puts it mildly . But isn't this ( more 9.9s ) finally an admission that their grading doesn't make sense ? I have seen so many 9.8s that look absolutely perfect and then there are some 9.8s that have glaring flaws and have always wondered where exactly is the distinction between a 9.9 and 9.8 then . I have their book Official CGC Guide to Grading Comics and it is a joke . In just two paragraphs they sum up their process as "part science , part art" . 90% of the book is fluff . Yes in the back there are "example" grades but they lack any clarity . It seems either they are hiding their proprietary technique or they really don't have any set steps or technique . Most likely it is the latter which is shocking to me .
Great points, and I find myself in a lot of agreement. How can they claim to be consistent, accurate and impartial when they acknowledge that they are "part art?" It's so frustrating. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Who knows? We may see days where dealers and buyers will be examining products in person and at the counter of comic shops and conventions. But its hard to predict. I heard Mile High in Denver is turning non electronic customers away. GREAT. WONDERFUL DAY AND AGE. Meanwhile back in my neck of the woods One of my favorite Book stores (warehouse sized) is no longer open to the public. On line orders only. Same type of thinking from those who are comfortable with reducing everything including your cash, status, and personal information to an electronic impulse. Convenient? Maybe. Preferred. Not sure. Order food to your home and actually peddle a bike? No way. Electric. Anyway. The product you hold in your hand is the product you hold in your hand. Make sure. P.S. Take a fkn pause or breath between sentences for fk sake. A bit annoying. Thanks anyway.
Yeah, I think it's likely that business, etc. continues to move more and more online, but like you said...who knows? And, unfortunately, Spongebob, the internet, etc. has rewired our minds and produced such short attention spans that I can't leave much of a pause between sentences or people will click off out of boredom. Thanks for watching and commenting!
What would happen if submitters who admit that they no CGC is a dishonest company would stop giving them business? They'd change their practice or go out of business. So are you not facilitating their dishonesty by continuing to do business with them? I'll refuse to do any further business with them. As a matter a fact in breaking open all my CGC slabs. They are just ruining comic book collecting in my opinion.
Those are great points and ones that I've been thinking about a lot. I've certainly decided to use them less for the reasons you mentioned (and haven't used them at all since news of the first scandal), but at least at this point I'm not yet ready to cut them off completely. To me, it's similar to the political system. For several years I voted 3rd party in the hopes that it would cause the 2 major parties to change. Until there is a larger contingent of people willing to do that, though, then it seems to have had a limited effect, so I'm back to voting the best I can within the 2 party system while still trying to bring about small changes where I can. Similarly, I'm trying to do the best I can within the grading system that currently exists in the hobby while trying to change where I can. Thanks as always for commenting. I always appreciate your counterpoints.
I hear that. We've both definitely got books that should be a 9.9 if that GSX 1 was a 9.9. Maybe one day we'll get one, but I fear they'll all be going to the auction houses in the near future until 9.9 becomes a more common grade where it's not a big deal if a plebe like us gets one.
Yup, we are not allowed to improve how we live and cooperate in the former-USA, and there is no movement, no instigation to improve anything in the former-USA, especially on social media, just apathy.
While I agree that there are reasons to be concerned about the future of the USA, I think the Black Pill/Doomer energy only leads to more apathy. Instead I think we need to look for ways to improve/cooperate/etc. in the midst of the imperfect system we have. Over time/generations we can bring about change, but we have to build with a long term vision understanding we may not even see the change that we are hoping for within our lifetimes. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Great video. Was thinking of grading some older books I have but after the CGC employee switching out books it made me hesitant.
Thanks! Yeah, I think a lot of us are more hesitant to submit to CGC for a lot of reasons. I'm definitely not "done" with them, but am certainly on pause. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Im a collector who just wants the book protected, and CGC has the best-looking slab. If someone can provide a better-looking slab than cgc, im definitely willing to try them out.
I agree, and that's one of the reasons I'm still using CGC for now even though I obviously have some concerns with their product. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Spot on. The high volume spenders get the better grades and there’s nothing we can do about it. Best bet is to find one of those high volume dealers and submit your book through them.
Great suggestion to consider submitting books through high volume dealers!
Great vid overall. 2 things:
1) The notion that CGC's grade inflation is "to keep the Sellers happy" requires there to be an equal alternative in the marketplace, i.e. "if we don't keep the customer happy, they'll go to our competitor." But there is no "legitimate" competition as every seller knows that a CBCS slab of a given book in a given grade only sells for 70-80% of the CGC equivalent. As such, for sellers, there is no incentive to go to CBCS over CGC if they're simply not happy with the CGC grades. Not saying grade inflation isn't happening; just saying that I don't believe that "keeping sellers happy" is the reason.
2) I have long advocated to my comic friends that they NOT pursue 9.8's due to the extreme markup in price over a 9.6 (significant money for insignificant difference). Given the size difference in prices between a 9.6 and a 9.8 (and a 9.9 and a 10), I'm inclined to believe that the new 9.9's will only significantly impact the 9.8's with little to no changes in 9.6's and no changes in 9.4's or lower. Consequently, the new 9.9's should only impact that segment of the market that chases 9.8's and will be a nonfactor to the rest of us.
Great thoughts here. I totally agree with your second point and have one counterpoint to your first one to consider: I completely agree that CGC's motivation to keep sellers happy requires a competitor and that CBCS does not fulfill this role. *However*, I would suggest that the true "competitor" for CGC is people "keeping their books raw." Of course, I am only one person, but I know that a year ago I had been submitting about 25 books every 3 months, but so far I have submitted 0 books in 2024. I'll eventually do another submission, but now I am being much more selective in which books that I'll be sending, so maybe I'll do one submission a year at this point. I think other collectors have shifted similarly, so I personally think CGC is adjusting their standards to try get back our business and keep us happy. Unfortunately, I think this will bring in short term revenue, but alienate some customers like me even more. There's lots more to be said, but I've already written a short essay here, haha. Thanks so much for watching and the well thought out comment!
I would argue that CBCS is actually a viable competitor...however, it is the comic community that is severely overleveraged on CGC that won't accept them as a viable option. Their cases are arguable better and their new labels are a vast improvement for the folks who complained about the labels...there is competition, but the community simply won't accept them...that's on the community. The pricing is only relevant to the quick flippers, but there is absolutely no reason for CBCS to be valued lower, other than the CGC sellers saying that's the way it should be...the power to change and accept is in the communities hands, but it's so overleveraged and resistant to evolution or change that it won't happen.
@@feedmyeyes4928 For the record, I love CBCS; I have a number of their slabs in my collection, and I 100% agree that there is no reason for a CBCS slab to sell for less than a CGC slab of the same book in the same grade. But the unfortunate reality is that it does. If we were talking about only a 5-7% price difference, Sellers would be much more inclined to use CBCS. But with a 20-30% difference, that can make a world of difference for that Seller's cash flow. And I'm not speaking specifically of part-time flippers or folks (like me) who sell some on the side now and then to fund their hobby, but I'm speaking more about the full-time dealers and LCS owners, the folks for whom this difference makes a very real impact on their livelihood. If folks like that were to switch to CBCS, a 30% haircut on revenues could be disastrous for their business. For folks like that, CBCS is not a legitimate option.
Much like I don't understand why the market values a 9.8 so much more than a 9.6, I don't understand why the market values a CGC label so much more than a CBCS label. I'm sure we've all heard the saying "buy the book, not the grade," right? Maybe it's time for a new saying: "buy the book, not the label."
Everything works this way..Even the political system..scary.
Very true, and it is a bit scary indeed. Thanks for watching and commenting!
I know the feeling. Every single seller on eBay and Mercari and every online retailer says that their books are “ Near Mint “ and they never are.
I hear that. Everybody thinks they only got 9.8s, lol.
Not to mention charging more for a more expensive book, even though the grading process should be the same for any book.
Great point! I do understand that they have to pay more to insure higher valued books, but it seems unlikely that it's enough to justify how much extra they charge for them.
@@wahoocomics I didn't realise they insured them.
@@Whalewraithmakes sense they have to insure, if they receive a Millon $ and God forbid there is a fire and rhe conic is destroyed, big big loss for both parties!
@@danyalpatel8173tbh I assumed it was at your own risk. Certainly a few videos out there complaining CGC damaged my book.
There's no money in it.
It's all slight of hand
11:55
There's certainly some truth to that. Thanks for watching and commenting!
The very concept of pressing, allows for a system in which flaws can be disguised, and grades 'bumped' (artificially), leading to 'inflation' as well.
That's a good point. There's certainly some arbitrariness in what CGC has considered to be "restoration" and they have definitely made a lot money (through CCS) in allowing for pressing, which has also led the "inflation" that you are describing. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@wahoocomics The seem to also be damaging books in the slabbing process and ignoring it, which means there could be many 9.8 (and even 9.9) labeled books, that are really not that grade anymore due to being damaged in the slab.
This is just the newest video I know of, but it can be searched for, with videos going back years.
ua-cam.com/video/AEh7OtqAyt8/v-deo.html
I sent a few comics in through a dealer at Terrificon. Never again, my comics came back damaged with bad grades. One was cracked the others with plastic chips floating inside. Either it was switched out, or damaged by the dealer, CGC or USPS... OR all of the above. Too many crooks in collecting, the grading just made it worse. I didn't send them back, I learned an expensive lesson.
Dang man, that's rough. My hearts hurts and they're not even my comics! Yeah, *everyone* could screw up, but likely *no one* would own up to it. That's one of the suckiest parts about grading. Thanks for watching and commenting!
More great Wahoo Wisdom! As w consumer my biggest expectation when it comes to grading companies is long term consistency. Artificially manipulating grades is not a good look. Thanks for sharing and Good Collecting👍❤️
Thank you! Yes, long term consistency is the key for grading to be sustainable. I hope CGC does not continue to make decisions to damage their brand long term in exchange for short term revenue. Thanks for watching and commenting!
This all is based on a premise that CGC is inherently dishonest. Although I would not argue they potentially are, no real evidence has been presented either. It is logical to assume they are seeking higher profits and alter their product to achieve them as needed. That does not necessarily imply dishonesty. I personally am not bothered by what 9.8 collectors think or do. I find 9.8 grade hunting to be rather silly to begin with unless someone hunts 10s. It has always been a moving target.
I hear what you're saying and I think a big question is what does it mean to be dishonest. Did CGC ever say they would never give out 9.9s and 10s? No. In that sense, they have not been dishonest. But, do they promise to be consistent in their grading? Yes. And, have they been? No as it seems clear that they have changed their standards with the numbers of 9.9s suddenly coming out. To your point, the reason why people have been hunting 9.8s is that CGC had effectively declared 9.8s to be 10s. Did they outright say that? No. But, that is how they have worked. Now all of a sudden the bar on 9.9s has been lifted (Automatic Comics has a lot of great videos revealing the large number of 9.9s coming on the market) and a lot of people are feeling burned by the lack of consistency. Anyways, a lot more could be said, but I'll pause here, haha. Thanks for watching the video and leaving a thoughtful comment!
@@wahoocomics I agree with you. Every company promises the best and most efficient and reliable service. I believe their grading has always been suspect so to me they are consistently inconsistent. 😁
Absolutely true, there's a couple of dealers that I won't CGC comics from them. Although their raw comics are usually spot on.
I hear that, and it'll be interesting to see if dealers start losing business because people don't "trust" their CGC graded books as being "authentic." Thanks for watching and commenting!
I like the economic analogy.
I'm glad you liked it! Thanks for watching and leaving an encouraging comment!
Great video. Too big to fail? I feel like the statement is true but a statement isn’t going to stop something from failing. I didn’t know that about the dollar I always thought the gold reserve backed it up. Always learning something new from your videos. It really is crazy and scary to think that really if you get enough people to feel the dollar is garbage the system could collapse easily.
It really is crazy the amount of 9.9 grades that have been put out recently. I would add in businesses as ones that will get 9.9s. My 9.9 was from a preorder I did which they guaranteed 9.6 or better. I lucked out they saw fit to give me the 9.9 lol. I’ve seen plenty other companies though selling 9.9s privately for crazy prices. Great job. Thanks for sharing. Be well. -Dave 🤙 12:19
Thanks man! Yeah, the dollar situation since 1971 is definitely scary. It's one of the main reasons why people are getting more interested in crypto. I haven't bought any crypto yet, but am seriously considering starting to invest. Also, congrats on getting a 9.9 and great point on businesses also being the ones that will benefit more than the individual customer.
"Too Big to Fail" Until they aren't" And they heading there pretty quick.
Yea the 9.9 stuff is ridiculous, they just want a flood of resubmits so they can double dip!!! Some of these books get sent back in 3 or 4 times
Great point, and I totally agree. It's frustrating for sure! Thanks for watching and commenting!
very well put and on the nose ... thanks for the vid
Thank you! I appreciate the kind words
Macho Man would be proud this presentation from The Wahoo. Oh, yeah! The subtle coordination of the shirt and the floor rug had me mesmerized throughout this video. My favorite piece of the argument is how the higher grades go to the auction houses and very visible dealers. The Metropolis guy who seems to have a monthly holy grail in a 9.9 fall into his hands is crazy. These people are trading the immediate gratification of social media attention and a graded-comic high sale for killing the hobby slowly in the long run. The question now for me is how much longer can we all participate in the thrill of grading raw comics and boosting value before it all evaporates.
🤣🤣🤣 The Wahoo loves this comment, lol. And, yeah, man, I have that same question for the reasons you mentioned. As you know, I *love* the thrill of grading comics, but at some point it becomes no longer worth it. Ugh, haha
This right here. Slabbing books is a ton of fun but in order for it to continue working, slabs have to maintain their value otherwise, there are other (better?) ways to protect your valuable books other than grading. In 2024 cash is king and you're right on - dealers, influencers and collectors with huge followings are chasing short term bucks at the very real chance that doing so might collapse the hobby in the long term. Of course, if these guys (who I will not yet call grifters) continue to magically get their hands on 9.9s and 10s and then flip them back out into the market, they might have the $ to retire happy while the rest of us are left holding the bag.
Personally I've taken a big step back on what books I send to CGC, particularly with the ultra-modern stuff. I just don't believe that any of it will be worth it, save for the "grails" like UF4 and EoSV2. I also don't mention incentives or ratios because I don't dabble in them except for once or twice per year, and only if I am in love with the cover art.
@@kyleroussel Great points and I've taken pretty much the exact same steps with what I'm sending to CGC. Thanks for the well thought out comment!
Compelling and logical argument! This phenomenon is even happening in colleges and universities with grades. And my wife -- a retired art teacher -- told me just today, that in 2019-2020, the last year before she retired, that the county administrators directed all teachers to change ZEROs (where work was literally not turned in at all) to D's. So theoretically, no one could get an F. Yeah, I know...faulty analogy...I guess? Maybe?
Back to graded comics, I don't know what we can do. One avenue is to simply bail. Or, I can just keep dancing with the devil. But where does that leave me with all my graded comics (including a GSXM #1 CGC 9.4 OW/W, an X-Men #94 9.4, and so on)... I don't know. Sure, I just like them because they're awesome, but I also don't want sit idly and bear witness to a massive erosion in their value before the inevitable day comes when I sell them. I'm paralyzed right now.
Thank you! And, yes, I 100% agree that the same thing is happening with higher education. Harvard, etc. has realized that people aren't going to pay $60000 for B's, so they have made a decision to inflate grades (just like CGC is doing) to satisfy their customers (the students and their parents). Also, that's crazy about how your wife's county school system directed 0s to be turned into Ds. There's so many problems with that!
And, yeah, I'm in the same conundrum about what to do with my graded comics. I especially feel that way about some of my more "valuable" 9.8s. Are my Wolverine 1 and Secret Wars 8 9.8s even special anymore? I *love* those books but do I sell them now and then buy a 9.9 later once there's a ton of them and those prices settle? Ugh, haha.
Thanks for watching and leaving a well thought out comment!
Yes.
Unfortunately true, huh? I appreciate the watch and comment along with some of the work I've seen you do CGC on other channels.
It is competition that forces companies to change for the better. When Wal-Mart does something that the masses don't like, the masses go to Target or other similar competitors. Eventually Wal-Mart gets the picture and makes changes for the better. The people may pay more for the same item(s)--i.e. take a hit financially for a time, but they feel that it's more important in the long run to let their voices be heard with their $$ and give the company a real incentive to change. Monopolies are generally not good. People have deem CGC as the top of the hill and won't even entertain and/or promote other competition. I see rant videos all the time about damaged books during shipping, damages occurring during the grading process, lost books, grades that are way off, etc., etc. In the next video, they are showing the next batch of comics that they will be sending in. Well, what incentive does CGC has to change if all the person is going to do is gripe and not make any behavioral changes on their end. Answer: None! Thus, CGC won't change and things will continue to trend in a negative way for consumers. If people are not willing to vote with their $$ and force changes, then those changes won't happen. Even more so, things will continue to get worse and people will continue to say, thanks for the hit, may I have another. What are people willing to do in order to force change for the better? If the answer is nothing, than nothing will change! Just my observations outside looking in.
Great points, and I agree with pretty much all that you've said here. For me, I have drastically reduced the number of books that I'm sending to CGC. I was sending about 25 books in every 3 months a year ago, but I have not sent any in for all of 2024. However, there are two caveats: 1. Although I am one of several that I think are trying to bring about change this way, unfortunately, the changes that CGC seem to be making are the ones that will bring in short term revenue. In other words, they've lost much of the money that I once gave them, but now they are servicing their "addicts" so to speak (using the language from your comment here, haha) by passing out 9.9s, etc. These 9.9s only foster the addiction. Eventually, I think CGC will be in big trouble if they continue down this path, but like most, they seem to be focused on short term gain without working about the long term impact. 2. Even though I have reduced by submitting significantly, I have not cut it out altogether at least at this point, because I do try to get the hobby to fund itself and some books still gain too much value from being graded for me to pass it up completely. Anyways, there's lots more to be said here, but I've already typed up an essay, lol. Thanks so much for watching and the well thought out comment!
Great follow up. I fully understand where you’re coming from and the points that you made. I know that several others have slowed/stopped their submissions as well. More of this is needed, but they keep dangling new, irresistible carrots. We’ll see how things trend over time. All the best.
@@kennythecomiccollector yep, time will tell!
CGC lying to us? But they're so trustworthy and have never done us wrong!
🤣🤣🤣 I know, right? I must just be a little paranoid, haha
Yeah, I like your take on this grade inflation issue.
Thank you! I appreciate the encouraging comment!
All of your statements ring true. I've always believed that many 9.9 and 10.0 were just placed into a 9.8 grade because that's what they were told to do regardless in years past. Now that the end of the mass grading years was soon approaching as well as all of the scandals that plagued CGC, this has caused the coming years of mass 9.9 + grades to begin. That 9.9 Giant -size X-Men will be just the tip of the insane census increase for those grades. But why does a 9.9 have to be 2X or more of the price of a 9.8? Will this cause graders to be monetarily motivated to lean towards the 9.9 grade to increase CGC's cut of the price of grading? Remove this and other incentives for third party graders to be tempted in what is basically a subjective opinion made by humans when it concerns 0.1 differences. It's only going to get crazier. And not to the benefit of the hobby.
Lots of great points here. Yep, CGC stands to earn a boatload more of money by giving out 9.9s since they can charge more with the higher FMV. I think the price of 9.9s will eventually come down some once the supply is higher, but still will be well above what a 9.8 is now. I agree things are going to get crazier and to the detriment of the hobby.
I literally just got my first 9.9 back from CGC last week. Very interesting.
Thanks and congratulations on the 9.9! Although you're only one customer, I do think it's very telling that you *just happened* to get it now when they're seemingly inflating their grades. Thanks for sharing and commenting!
CGC and professional comics grading saved comic collecting, but now everyone wants to hit them as if there's some type of conspiracy...
I will consistently get my more valuable keys graded because they deserve to be preserved.
I think merchants of comics don't like grading because of the cost of grading and pressing cuts into their profit margins. They can take advantage of buyers' ignorance of the true condition of a book and get a higher price.
I can't believe how many video blogs there are against cgc. It is an all out attack. Stop the Madness
I hear you and certainly agree that having CGC is better than just relying on comic book dealer grading. That said, they have clearly made a change to their grading standards imo, which is a betrayal of their past customers who have spent tons of money with the understanding that they wouldn't. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Certainly a valid argument. I still thing their is value in a third party grader.
Thanks, and I agree there is still value in a third party grader...even though I obviously think the system has flaws and can be improved, it's still probably a better system than we had before third party grading came along.
Interesting video, but I think you need to be careful in suggesting whether or not a given company is a fraud, because you may find yourself on the wrong end of a legal-action. Also, I don't think that CGC consistently gives a higher grading to comics that are submitted by auction-houses. Buyers aren't stupid, and with a little experience and time they are able to assess whether or not a given grade matches up with the comic. If buyers/bidders start feeling that certain auction-houses are selling off comics that are consistently over-graded, they will very likely stop participating in those auctions, and will start sharing their experience with other bidders/buyers as well --- which is the death knell for the auction-house.
Good point. However, it begs the question of how much do collectors care about whether or not a book is overgraded. My feeling is that they generally are fine with overgraded books, because they still command the same value and respect among collectors. The grade seems to matter much more than the actual condition. But, of course, I could be wrong.
CGC is a product of comic speculator crash of 90s. It's very existence is to make people believe their comics still have value. Strangely, that comic crash still effecting us. Eventually, market will come to a saturation level(again) that people will realize their assets don't have the value they desired.
I agree, CGC feels like a scam. But it is hard to predict the next crash. Some say current comic book market just reached to the point of pre speculator boom levels. Lots of crossovers, variant covers, constat reboots, even ebay to some extent(not intentionally) fueling the boom(if its happening even).
Personally, I don't think there will be another crash like 90s. At least not on that scale. People and traders were buying massive amounts during 90s. I am guessing publishers are not printing large amounts like old days. These days we have different problems. This time it is the abundance of money that inflating the prices. Also CGC has a hand in speculation.
Nice vid, have a nice day! btw comics are not for slabbing they are for reading! 😊
Great points! Yes, I agree this is different from the 90s. Like you said, there is less supply...and I would say also more genuine demand for the true keys (not modern variant covers, etc.), so though we may still see the market drop, it is unlikely to be a 90s level crash. Thanks for watching and leaving an insightful comment!
153rd Like 102nd Comment SHEESH!
Thanks man! I appreciate the support!
We just went DEEP down the rabbit hole. Always great critical thinking skills on this channel.
🤣🤣🤣 Thanks man! Just call me Alice, haha
I never liked CGC or their cases and that puts it mildly . But isn't this ( more 9.9s ) finally an admission that their grading doesn't make sense ? I have seen so many 9.8s that look absolutely perfect and then there are some 9.8s that have glaring flaws and have always wondered where exactly is the distinction between a 9.9 and 9.8 then . I have their book Official CGC Guide to Grading Comics and it is a joke . In just two paragraphs they sum up their process as "part science , part art" . 90% of the book is fluff . Yes in the back there are "example" grades but they lack any clarity . It seems either they are hiding their proprietary technique or they really don't have any set steps or technique . Most likely it is the latter which is shocking to me .
Great points, and I find myself in a lot of agreement. How can they claim to be consistent, accurate and impartial when they acknowledge that they are "part art?" It's so frustrating. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@wahoocomics They are a fraud like you said . They changed the rules and that is easy because they have no rules .
It’s like I’m looking into a mirror. Subscribed
Nice! It's always great to connect with people that have similar mindsets. Thanks for subbing!
I disagree with none of this.
Great minds think alike, haha. Thanks for watching!
Beginning to wonder if people aren't printing new copies LOL Hey ya never know.
Where there is money to be made, nothing would surprise me, lol. There's always going to be somebody looking into every kind of scam.
Who knows? We may see days where dealers and buyers will be examining products in person and at the counter of comic shops and conventions. But its hard to predict. I heard Mile High in Denver is turning non electronic customers away. GREAT. WONDERFUL DAY AND AGE. Meanwhile back in my neck of the woods One of my favorite Book stores (warehouse sized) is no longer open to the public. On line orders only. Same type of thinking from those who are comfortable with reducing everything including your cash, status, and personal information to an electronic impulse. Convenient? Maybe. Preferred. Not sure. Order food to your home and actually peddle a bike? No way. Electric.
Anyway. The product you hold in your hand is the product you hold in your hand. Make sure.
P.S. Take a fkn pause or breath between sentences for fk sake. A bit annoying. Thanks anyway.
Yeah, I think it's likely that business, etc. continues to move more and more online, but like you said...who knows? And, unfortunately, Spongebob, the internet, etc. has rewired our minds and produced such short attention spans that I can't leave much of a pause between sentences or people will click off out of boredom. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@wahoocomics lol, that hadn't occurred to me.
Why did this video remind me of an old episode of Matlock? ....... You would make a good lawyer! LOL
Great video!
🤣🤣🤣 Thanks! I used to love Matlock back in the day, haha.
Great insight. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you! I appreciate you watching and leaving an encouraging comment!
What would happen if submitters who admit that they no CGC is a dishonest company would stop giving them business? They'd change their practice or go out of business. So are you not facilitating their dishonesty by continuing to do business with them? I'll refuse to do any further business with them. As a matter a fact in breaking open all my CGC slabs. They are just ruining comic book collecting in my opinion.
Those are great points and ones that I've been thinking about a lot. I've certainly decided to use them less for the reasons you mentioned (and haven't used them at all since news of the first scandal), but at least at this point I'm not yet ready to cut them off completely. To me, it's similar to the political system. For several years I voted 3rd party in the hopes that it would cause the 2 major parties to change. Until there is a larger contingent of people willing to do that, though, then it seems to have had a limited effect, so I'm back to voting the best I can within the 2 party system while still trying to bring about small changes where I can. Similarly, I'm trying to do the best I can within the grading system that currently exists in the hobby while trying to change where I can. Thanks as always for commenting. I always appreciate your counterpoints.
#Raw
I think more and more people are going to be headed in that direction. Thanks for watching and commenting!
I'm definitely a bit hurt i never got a 9.9...
I hear that. We've both definitely got books that should be a 9.9 if that GSX 1 was a 9.9. Maybe one day we'll get one, but I fear they'll all be going to the auction houses in the near future until 9.9 becomes a more common grade where it's not a big deal if a plebe like us gets one.
thanks for the heads up and I would like to see more
Cool...thanks for the feedback and stay tuned!
Yup, we are not allowed to improve how we live and cooperate in the former-USA, and there is no movement, no instigation to improve anything in the former-USA, especially on social media, just apathy.
While I agree that there are reasons to be concerned about the future of the USA, I think the Black Pill/Doomer energy only leads to more apathy. Instead I think we need to look for ways to improve/cooperate/etc. in the midst of the imperfect system we have. Over time/generations we can bring about change, but we have to build with a long term vision understanding we may not even see the change that we are hoping for within our lifetimes. Thanks for watching and commenting.