Gawn seemed inconsistent to me too, until I read his talk with Elayne in the rowboat. After that conversation it all came together for me and his character made a lot more sense, and actually seemed very well thought out to me. He had an image of the life he wanted to lead, and who he wanted to be, but the Wheel took him into subservient roles, while Rand, who he should have continued to like, went on to live the life and role gawyne would have seen for himself as - leading men, protecting etc... His refusal to accept his place as glorified body guard with little personal power, and his deeply buried guilt in choosing the wrong side of the Aes Sedai conflict are what made him act the way he did - one time angry and vengeful and irrational, the next minute trying to assuage his guilt by helping min, or placating Egwene later. For me this completely explained his back and forth behavior. His anger at Siuan and frustrations with Elayne/Min/Egwene along with the notion that the girls must be protected from Aes Sedi schemes, caused him to make a really dumb decision that he quickly figured out was the wrong one, but like so many other real people, he refused to acknowledge it and doubled down by continuing to follow Elida in hopes of getting revenge on Rand until Bryne and Elanye set him on the path, to being slightly less of a jealous idiot.
I see Gavin as a tool that RJ used to make his point about balance more clear. Rand grows and achieves balance with his romantic interests and with himself while Gavin remains the same and doesn't achieve any balance. Therefore Rand is successfu in the endl and Gavin is not. I don't think he is badly written just a remainder that in this universe men and women must work together .
Exactly, that is why he fights Demandred. All of the ones who fight him are, in truth, confronting their deepest character flaws. Gawyn: For him, Demandred represents jealousy towards the Dragon, and resenting always being being the runner-up and never the best (applies to his relationship with Galad, Rand and Egwene). He fails to evolve past those flaws and dies to them (he quite literally runs to his death because he was tired of being unimportant) Galad: Pride in oneself and one’s beliefs. He gets wounded to an almost fatal degree, but manages to survive and even harm Demandred. By the time we leave him, Galad, while still self-righteous to a fault, has begun to change, unlike Gawyn, and is starting to improve Logain: Hatred and resentment. Leaves a permanent scar on him, but he also survives. What was done to him in the course of the series will never be forgotten, but he will try to redirect that hatred towards the greater good Lan: Placing one’s responsibility and mission above love, trying to get rid of any kind of possible affection in one’s life. Lan not only survives, but defeats it, being the only one of the 4 to be absolutely triumphant. By the end of the books, he has found a balance between his responsibilities and his love to Nyneave and others
Nearly every single person Gawyn knows, loves, or trusts, tells him Rand did not kill Morgase. Still believes rumor. He is literally the one character I came to strongly dislike.
@@danalou_who7765 It's insanely frustrating, but it makes perfect sense. Gawyn's so realistic, relevant & similar to issues we're facing today. I can think of a very vocal, agitated segment of the American population who act the same way. Circumstances could conspire for almost any person in the real world to fall into a similar twisted perspective as Gawyn's.
@Robertson Thirdly He is still throwing away every single person who is telling him that, no, Rand did not kill her. Even his own sister. He is willfully ignoring every single person who tells him otherwise. That's not 'love for his mother,' that's narcissism. It's his own belief that he is right so everyone else has to be wrong, in spite of all evidence against him.
He believes it's Rand because he wanted to. His conversation with Elayne in the rowboat made him realize he didn't truly believe it, but he was jealous that an unknown sheepherder has become the hero of an era while he believes he's only ever made mistakes and picked the wrong sides. His conversation with Bryne indicates as much as well. His ending was completely in line with him knowing that killing Demandred would quickly dismantle the Shadow's forces, and he arrogantly believed that he was a swordsman on par with Lan while wearing the ring of the bloodknives; little did he know, Demandred was greater than any Swordsman of the 3rd age regarding technique and also wielding the Power (despite the fact Lan killed him). He's a profoundly flawed character- hot-headed, stubborn, arrogant, and generally unchanging. I'd say he's the epitome of his heart warring against itself.
It's clear that critical theory in writing isn't a strong background in some of the analysis I've heard on "The Wheel of Time" and here I have to call out some issues in your analysis. In literature, a defining difference between literary fiction and other genres is the tragedy of not changing, failing to grow when the opportunity presents itself. Gawyn is a foil that mirrors many of the qualities and failures for King Arthur's knights. Galad is too. A writer will create characters to foil with other characters to show just how wrong things can go and why. Gawyn is consistently written to jump to the wrong conclusion and believe his own belief over others. He at first jumps to the wrong conclusion of Rand when they meet. Elayne eventually talks him out of raising the alarm. Gawyn knows Rand for a brief time. They're not friends. I wouldn't even say they're well acquainted. He may feel loyalty to the death to people, but how he shows that isn't the same as the loyalty itself. Meaning, he is loyal, but he is consistently loyal in his own way, in the way he thinks best. Just as Elaida is a foil for Egwene, Gawyn is a foil to Galad and three main protagonist males from Emond's Field. Where all of them have strong ethics and morals, sometimes rigidly so we see change for Rand, Mat, Perrin, and Galad when their worldview is tested. When Gawyn's worldview is tested, he fails and that is quite a human trait. He is well written as a foil and character. He is a well written tragic hero that gets it wrong almost all of the time and he faces the consequence for it in the end. Not everyone changes and if everyone changed in the WOT, it wouldn't be believable. Elaida doesn't really change either, though she is presented opportunity to do so. Same with a number of the white cloaks, other aes sedai, and even the forsaken. Their failure to change shows a great contrast in the growth of other characters, why growth is hard, how people don't always get it right. I would say Gawyn's friends fail him in certain ways. Min doesn't scold him for his actions in taking Elaida's side, she doesn't explain anything to him that she knows to be true either. He helps her even though at that point, he believes himself to be correct and he has yet no reason to doubt himself. Egwene is sometimes vague too. So is Elayne. Gawyn is operating on limited information and exposure to the events unfolding elsewhere. It's easy to judge how he should have responded when we have the full picture and every other character's POV. Gawyn doesn't have those things. He is doing what many people do, fill in the blanks with his own ideas. Robert Jordan remembered that Gawyn doesn't have all the information and as a result Gawyn acts based on what he thinks and believes. It's an awesome character flaw that is realistic and quite human.
That's not critical theory. Critical theory is any approach to social philosophy that sees social structures and social assumptions as more important then individual actions. A critical approach to Gawyn would focus on his station as prince, and how he acts out that roll. Not his personal character faults that critical theory would see as mostly unimportant.
@@myself2noone Actually, critical theory which I know what it is can be represented in the choices and behaviors characters exhibit in fact, they're always represented that way as that is how themes and the philosophies behind them are shown in writing - through character behaviors and character choices including their faults that develop. Of course his roles as first prince has an impact, his upbringing which translates into his worldview, choices and behaviors.
Sorry to resurrect an old comment, but Gawyn IS poorly written. You comment that Min doesn't explain anything to Gawyn about the situation. Based on how Gawyn reacts to his loved ones telling him that Rand didn't kill his mother, do you really think he would have listened? He is the other extreme from Galad. Where Galad always does what is right no matter what, Gawyn always thinks HE is right no matter what. Not only that but he definitely does work as a plot device for Jordan. Jordan needed a catalyst for how Siuan gets overthrown? Oh Gawyn, though just a youngling, is able to defeat his trainer. He can literally do anything Jordan needs him to do, including beating 2 warders at once and one of those is someone who has been known to beat Lan on occasion. He's just a plot device.
Gawyn really was likeable in when we first met him. After the tower split he made some decisions that made me mad. Instead of going to his mom and helping her he stayed to fight for a woman that he owed no loyalty to. Beyond that, his unreasonable hatred of Rand made him really unlikeable. Finally, as you mentioned, his overwhelming desire to be a hero led him (especially with the bloodknife terangreal) and Egwene to their deaths. He really made me mad!!
He was born to be the first prince of the sword, forever the second most important person in Andor. Not being able to follow orders would have been beaten out of him since birth. His behavior constantly contradicts this
Gawyn is hated because he didn't side with what people think was the correct side during the tower split. Gawyn killed two warder blademasters, decided the outcome of the tower split, and formed the Younglings. Gawyn was mislead and lied to by people whose fates would have been different had they actually spoke truth. Gawyn saves the Amyrlin and is vilified for not being a lap dog. Gawyn has a brutal arc that is disliked by many but his arc is an allegory of discarded duty. Gawyn was fated and sworn to be the Prince of the sword for Elyane. If he was allowed to follow this path and stayed on it. Gawyn would have lived, Elayne would have thrown away fewer lives needlessly and perhaps Egwene lives. Who knows?
@@J3-FF_The_Troll His duty is to protect Elayne, even when she doesn't want it. Even when she claims not to need it. Siuan was lying to him, preventing him from fulfilling his duty.
@@dorvinion Siuan never lied to him. Not being told where she is for his and her safety is not lying. He's a self important ass who always makes a choice based on what the plot needs him to do.
Gawyn isn't as inconsistent as he seems at first blush. He (subconsciously) chooses to believe things that give him the opportunity to feel like a hero, and then acts accordingly. Loyalty is just one way to feel heroic, but not the only.
I would say you're wrong about the Siuan issue. Elaida was his mother's advisor for most of his life, so it's likely that Gawyn would see himself as loyal to her.
Isn't he exactly the person the pattern needed him to be? Without him the unstained tower doesn't break. Without him Logain doesn't get healed, Egwene doesnt have her support squad upon becoming Amyrlin. If he believes Egwene about Rand then he either he frees Rand or he fails and dies. So then either dumai's wells never happens or Egwene dies in the attack on the tower. He, like many other characters is just a slave to the pattern. All of his decisions (or indecision) work out for the best in accordance with prophecy. This is not the elipse or the loopty loop of time it is the wheel of time. You can not have a wheel and free will. They are not compatible. Gawyn is just as important as Egwene or Rand. He and other characters like Elaida deserve way better because they have to do their jobs and only ever receives scorn or horrible lives because of it. At least in my opinion anyway. /shrug
It could be argued, and I will, that Gawyn's role in the breaking of the tower was minuscule. The Younglings stopped the other warders from rescuing Siuan.... Siuan is rescued by Gawyn anyway. Gawyn didn't break the tower, and the younglings were only a small part of the forces fighting that day, even without them Siuan's side would have lost. The character could have easily been written as Nae-blis said... fighting breaks out, he concentrates on seeing Min to safety... Min in turn is freeing everyone else in the process (Lianne, Siuan and Logain). He then leaves the tower with them to get answers from Siuan. He doesn't need to be at Dumai's Wells, as his character only acts as a different set of eyes on the situation. He doesn't need to be harassing Gareth outside of the tower. Egwene's whole arc could take place exactly the same with Gawyn meeting up with her after she becomes Amyrlin. He could even split from them and head to Caemlyn to fight Rand or find out about his mother and be in place when Elaine gets there. His loyalty to Elaida never makes any sense.
@@robertgordon8159 Interesting points, but I will counter with just this. Even Elaida recognized that without the help of Gawyn and his Younglings, Siuan and Liane would have escaped being stilled as the warders were on their way to rescuing them prior to Elaida's coup reached the Amyrlin's offices. It was Gawyn's force that cleared the way for Elaida's group to invade the offices. Without Gawyn's boys stopping the warders specifically (and they were the only force who dared to do so), Elaida's crew would have reached an empty office, and it would have given Siuan and the Blues time to react and repel the uprising with their green allies. At which time, the announcement of the Black Ajah existing could be named, and ALL of the coup members would be charged with it. Keep in mind that they didn't just kill one or two or even a handful of warders, but over a dozen. Even that small group of Aes Sedai would not have overcome that many warders, considering that they would not have been able to channel against them until the last instant. At least not without showing themselves to be Black Ajah. From there, the tower never breaks... and everything changes.
By that rationale everyone is what was needed of them as a good outcome was attained at the end of the WoT. Whether or not free will exists, you have to judge anyone on the presumption that it does otherwise you descend into an entirely consequentianalist morality. Maybe Fain was a great guy for driving the Winter's Night attack, otherwise the Emonds Fielder 5 wouldn't have set out with Moiraine. Morality vanishes under this approach. Gawyn sucked because by the evaluation of anyone with free will he was self-centred and inconsistent. The fact that ultimately it played out well is irrelevant.
I'm actually more of the mind that his character inconsistencies are kind of the whole point. He admits it himself later in the series, that he envies Rand who is out there achieving things while Gawyn himself simply ends up spinning his wheels and getting nowhere. All of the choices he makes, like siding with Elaida, are him trying and failing to get somewhere with his life, except that he consistently makes the wrong decisions and digs his hole even deeper.
One thing I've always wondered, when Gawyn faces off against Demandred he says to himself that that he(Demandred) looks oddly familiar, and for the life of me I don't know why. I once re-read the entire series to try and figure out when they would have encountered each other before that point but I'm still scratching my head. Any ideas?
I always thought that he was spun out of the wheel again, and had fought Demandred in the past, and lost in the past, over and over again. So, finally defeating him was the closure he needed, no matter the cost. At least that thought kept me from throwing the book thru the window, and having to repair the window. And he was a very short sighted prick, but so was his brother.
maybe it wasn't necessarily physical appearance he was talking about, but rather the kind of expression Demandred wore and behavior he exhibited that seemed familiar. And who would they remind him of? Himself. Not identical, but as Chris Eaton pointed out in another comment, Gawyn is a real little brother to Galad, the one who is a little bit better at pretty much everything. I suspect he may feel smoe of that towards Rand himself as well. Remember that Demandred's biggest trait was being known for always being second best. It may be that he sees Demandred as something of a kindred spirit in that way, but decides to reject the path Demandred took and try to excise it from himself by killing the man, and dying in the attempt.
In the teal world we have paintings of people from centuries ago. Who look alot like contemporary folks because they are thier ancestors. Like if you were to look like your grandmother or whatever. Gawain probably fought the man's descendants. After all being a Forsaken absolutely would've gotten you laid a whole bunch. When you consider that in reality serial killers have massive all female fan clubs..
Naah, he's showing his loyalty in the Tower battle. He's loyal to Elida. He grew up with her in the palace, she's one of the adult authority figures which defined his early life. Now, I'm with you on it being strange that he stayed after with the younglings. But it makes perfect sense that he sided with Elida against Suian (who he hates for the reasons you noted).
The other point i think that this video is missing is that he has been trained to be "responsable for people" for his entire life and feals that the younglings are his responsablity because he sided with Elida and got them into that whole mess. His Loyalty as Nae'blis was talking about isnt to the tower but to the younglings and takes quite a bit for that to break.
And Elaida betrays him and his younglings. That's the part I never understood. It should have been obvious that Elaida wanted them gone much earlier, but he still stuck around on a promise he knew to be empty. Or was it the weight of his sins keeping him chained?
@@rowanmeads8598 exactly, but why would he still stay after it was clear that Elaida wanted the younglings gone? After Dumais well, the logical thing to do would be to go to Andor or at least go and search for Elayne, many younglings would likely follow him.
@@rowanmeads8598 What? That Elaida betrayed him? I remember a part where Gawyn thinks himself that the initial ploy was just to get rid of the Younglings. Honestly it doesn't matter, after being sidelined he should have left instead of waiting in some backwater village and attack the Aes Sedai army in small strikes when they arrive. He knows elayne or Egwene aren't in the white tower, so at that point nothing should be keeping him there.
Egwene can then bond Egeanin after Egeanin saves Egwene from the Sharans. Egwene's can still die in the same way. Her Sa'angrael lacks the filter so can overextend herself. I do not believe Gawyn's death had anything to do with her overextending herself anyway. Remember, she had bonded Egeanin and had come to accept Gawyn's death
I don't think his actions are as "out of character" as you describe. I see him as being the ultimate "torn" character and therefore his actions are a result of his choosing (normally forced to choose) between conflicting ideas throughout the story. As per his talks with Bryne, he knows he has a duty as Prince, but he is torn because he also has a feeling of wanting to do greater deeds. He loves Egwene, but is torn because he knows Galad loves her too. He is torn between supporting 2 Amyrlins that he despises. He is the character that most battles inner conflict throughout the story.
I agree with everything. I actually liked him until he attacked the warders. One thing I want to add is Gawyn is the steriotypical little brother. His big brother is perfect and he never measured up to him. Gawyn had great sword skills, but not like his big bro. He was handsome, but not Greek God handsome. I think he was really always trying to make his mark on the world, do something legendary, and make a big difference. His logic and decision making skills were either not very good, or not as important as making a big splash. He is basically an emotional toddler.
Agreed. I don't think his character was badly written, I think he had a flawed character. It's easy to look amiable and friendly when everything is going well. It's how you react when all hell breaks loose that reveals who you truly are. At that first key moment Gawyn reacted badly and he went downhill from there, stubbornly sticking to his wrong choices even when he knew he couldn't trust those he was supporting. His death was very much that of a petulant toddler and was a natural consequence of his downward spiral.
I agree. Imo it would've been much more consistent with his character as it's depicted in the first 3,5 books that he'd decide to defect to the rebel Aes Sedai already during the split, seeing as he knew that Elayne and Egwene were working for the Amyrlin that Elaida just deposed. It'd make much more sense for him to take this as an opportunity to leave Tar Valon in order to search for his sister and Egwene, either by joining the rebels and hope to find them through their networks, or by just traveling out into the world. Him starting to believe the rumor that Rand killed his mother should've ended fairly quickly, either as soon as he met Egwene and was told by her that Rand didn't do it, or just as soon as he hears that Elayne is still alive and thus concludes that if the rumor that Rand killed Elayne isn't true, then the rumor about Morgase is probably also not true. After that, his character arc should've focused similarly to the final 2 books on him struggling to accept that he won't be a hero but rather should serve where he could do the most good. And finally, he shouldn't have sacrificed himself trying to be the hero who killed Demandred because that's just stupid. I did like the idea of him using those blood rings, but not in order to kill darkfriends but instead in order to protect Egwene. Perhaps have him use all 3 rings in a desperate attempt to save her, succeed but them succumb to the side effects and die, causing the same reaction in Egwene as we see in the book.
I see genuine human behavior & motivations is nearly all of Gawyn's actions. I think he's so hated because in our minds, in the theoretical hypothetical, we all want to believe we would do better than we really would. Even supposed masters of their own destinies are tossed around by the chaos of circumstance & fail to see their world objectively. We get into difficult, uncomfortable situations we never would've chosen for ourselves if things had gone as we hoped or planned. As a few powerful character in WoT come to understand. A leader is not more in control of themself or the world than the average person. But if they can keep their feet planted & bend to the tempest winds that are life's unforeseeable pressures, they create the illusion of stability to everyone else tossed about in the storm.
I feel similar to your views as expressed here about Gawyn. Although it's my opinion that he was more forgotten by Mr. Jordan and sidelined after he realised he'd missed an arc in earlier books. His attempts to address this are where the inconsistencies stem from I feel. I think initially he was meant to be a more important character, like a Thom Merrilin or Lan but as opportunities were missed he began to become just a loose end.
I would totally have to disagree with you on it being Godwin's fault that eek Wayne got killed. Please don't mind the spelling as I am using talk to text so some of the names are not going to come out right so bear with me. Anyway egwene alvear new what she was doing when she burned herself out because she realized that was the only way. She made one of the biggest sacrifices in The Wheel of Time series just save the world. no we cannot blame Godwin for can for what she did
I’m very much in agreement with you about the changes the show should make with Gawyn. I had thought Gawyn more a character we hate than a poorly written one, but you make a good case about his lack of development and inconsistencies. I had put this down to him being highly conflicted and somewhat underwritten. But you may unfortunately be right that it was more him doing what RJ needed him to. I will pay close attention to this on my current reread.
It's funny how you describe Gawyn because his character description up to the points 5 minutes 30 seconds that you've given him pretty much describes everyone's character description in this series pretty much being self-importance knowing better than everyone else and deciding that his way is better pretty much describes everyone in The Wheel of Time except for a very very few characters maybe Min and maybe Perrin.
Jordon wrote himself into a corner with him. If he did leave the tower with Min and company he would never of left Eleyne's side after reuniting with her at Saladar and he would of been a constant problem and hindrance to her story. That would also of kept him from becoming Egwanes warder. I will defend him dying to Demondread because that act of Egwane overcoming his loss as her warder and continuing to fight shows her grit and resolve.
I think the writing for Gawyn was intentional. He had a dynamic with Galad narratively. Galad was more stiff and seemingly uncaring at first with Gawyn the opposite. But Galad despite his flaws, believed in something and was steadfast. Even when he grew as a character and changed himself for the better, he did it under his beliefs. And through that positively changed the world around him. Gawyn almost threw the last battle where the stakes couldn't be higher. Good job, Gawyn.
Nae'blis. I like your change of Gawyn's story for the TV series. He can get to the same place (Egwene's warder) as he did by ending up in Salidar. The Younglings (without Gawayn) are a group that can be removed from the TV series without a huge loss. We would just have have more time trying to be there for Egwene but not really helping her because he refuses to believe she is Amarylin
I agree that Gawyn is not the most likable character in the series, but I disagree with your reasoning. Gawyn suffers from not knowing who he really is. Almost everyone in the Wheel of Time KNOWS who they are and what role they are supposed to fill in life. Rand KNOWS he is the Dragon Reborn. Egwene KNOWS she is the Amyrlin Seat. Perrin KNOWS he is the Wolfbrother. Mat KNOWS that he is the General/Gambler. The same can be said for so many other characters. Gawyn does not. He is constantly looking for someone to base his own sense of self on, only to have his perceptions of that person come up short and therefore shake his understanding of his own self time and time again. He comes to think that he alone knows what is best for everyone else and ends up being wrong once again and eventually paying the ultimate price for that. I like to think of his path as the opposite of Rand's. Rand slowly left his humanity behind until he was forced to remember that he was human. Gawyn seemed to think that he was the same person he always was and that it was everyone else that was changing, but in reality he was slowly becoming a monster himself. By the end, it was just too late for Gawyn to change.
I have just finished listening(3rd time through the Books) to the end of chapter 4 of TGS, for those who don’t remember it finishes with a few POV paragraphs of Gawin and it is a good view of Gawin beginning to realise he may have made a mistake and starting to doubt his choices. Added The further i get into my current read through ofTGS the more i feel Brandon may have a better grasp on Gawin then RJ did.
I agree with your assessment of Gawyn on every point except one. I don't feel that Gawyn's attempt to kill Demandred led directly to Egwene's death. While the action was certainly selfish in the extreme, I think that Egwene would have done what she did regardless. In fact, the death of Gawyn likely led to her complete commitment in that last push by the Aes Sedai. Without that push, the Sharan channelers would have still been on the field, and Taim would too. While Gawyn was a selfish ass, his death actually opened the way for Egwene to strike a fatal blow against the Shadow's forces in the Last Battle.
From a writer's standpoint, Gawyn is a great character. Everything about Gawyn is centered around covering up his insecurities and fears in order to appear as strong as those around him. He HAS to stay and serve Elaida because Siuan sent Elayne from the tower to hunt the Black Ajah without him. That made Siuan evil and Elaida, her openly hostile opponent in the tower, good. Even though he loved Egwene, he HAD to believe she would lie to protect Rand because everyone knows Rand is the only hope of standing against the Dark One. He HAS to oppose Garyth Bryne because he sides with the Tower in Exile and was banished from Andor by his mother. In none of these situations does he try to learn the truth. He impulsively throws his loyalty behind those who are saying what his heart says must be true at that moment, then he does the same thing his did when Thom left: He holds on to that bad decision despite all evidence while he looks for a way to change his position without seeming like he did so to correct a mistake. This, of course, digs him deeper and deeper into holes that eventually lead to not only his death, but the death of Egwene. Gawyn is a cleverly crafted character that is all too realistic. He is nothing more than a boy thrust into a man's role who had no man he was emotionally bonded to that was able to guide him in the important lessons he needed to learn. Only Thom would have been able to fulfill that role, and he was kicked out of Andor before he got the chance to do for Gawyn what he did for Perrin, Mat, and Rand. All the other men in Gawyn's life, including Galad, taught him the mechanics of being a leader, but nobody knew what he really needed was guidance on being a man. By the time he had to stand up and make decisions as a man, he wasn't prepared, and eventually the woman he loved paid the price. That is why I hated Gawyn, but then I realized he was made that way by the adults in his past. Maybe that is what Robert Jordan wanted people to see when it comes to Gawyn.
RayVision3D So maybe he is the mirror image of the 19 year old boy, who is loyal to his country because every day in school he swear to his flag and sing the American Anthem without knowing, why to be loyal. And so he let send him to a land, where he no belong, because it was said, did horrible deeds, because it was said, and die in the mud as a tragic boy, who has never the chance to grow up, because it was said. P.S. Sorry, i'm no native english speaker.
6:30 the idea that Egwene didn’t have control makes my blood boil she knew exactly what she was doing. Her thought process at the time is written down for every one to read. Saying that “ShE wEnT cRaZy CuZ HeR wArDeR dIeD iN a WaR” is simply not true she bonded another and killed Egwene (har self) so that The Amyrlin Seat (also her) can lead the battle and she did what she knew was best she restored the pattern’s integrity by weaving the Flame of Tar valon, her last weaving.
I guess I haven't discussed the characters too much with others. I never had a problem with Gawyn and didn't realize he was unpopular. My most hated character was Egwene. She got continually more insufferable as each book progressed. As a younger and inexperienced person, she repeatedly put herself above others who had more qualifications than she did. After learning of Rand's importance and the details of the prophecies, she continually attempts to counter him while saying she's on his side. She feels - with no justification - that she knows better than Rand. She lied and broke rules repeatedly and felt it was completely okay when the wise ones forgave her, but later becomes completely unforgiving of others breaking rules. If Gawyn displays "toxic masculinity", Egwene is the epitome of "toxic femininity". I cheered when she died in A Memory of Light. Gawyn didn't know Rand. He'd met him once. That's not justification for having him disbelieve negative things about him. What I see being described as inconsistencies for Gawyn read to me more like character development. His mother made him responsible for Elayne from earliest childhood, blamed him (and Galad) for her disappearing from the Tower. The only thing warring for his loyalty is his duty (to Elayne, Andor, and to a lesser extent to the Tower since his mother ordered him there and his sister trained there), and his love for Egwene. A man torn between two competing loyalties can make decisions for or against either at different times. Especially if he makes some of these without all the information (as it appears he did when killing Hamar). It's not inconsistency of writing or character, but inconsistency of a person's thought processes and decision-making. In the process of this, he saw and was responsible for a lot of death. He without a doubt suffered from PTSD. For those who dislike Gawyn because of the way he was written, either suck it up and accept it or don't watch the show. To recommend changing his story arc because you don't like some of it ignores the ramifications it would have on the rest of the story. I personally didn't like how Rand was made insane really fast, then slowed down as the series dragged on, as if Jordan realized the insanity wasn't progressing at the right pace. I also disliked how powerful Padan Fain got, book after book, so much so that he radiated an aura of death (around book 10 or so), only to disappear for a book or two until Sanderson was ready to finish his story. And then he wasn't as powerful. For a while, it appeared that Padan Fain was accumulating every type of evil and would eventually be the Dark One that Rand fought at the last battle. Then Perrin finishes him off with hardly any problems. He spent 14 books chasing Rand and Rand didn't even have to deal with him? I could point to several plot lines I disagree with, but I know that if I want them changed it will change the rest of the story, and that's not what I want to see.
Wow, I don't know if I've ever disagreed with someone more than I disagree with you on your breakdown of Egwene and Gawyn, lol. You've obviously read the books but it really doesn't sound like you enjoyed them much; if you haven't already, try a re-read. I found major life changes, like becoming a mother, changed how certain stories I loved impacted me. Not saying you'll change your options on Gawyn, I know I didn't (still hate him), but maybe you'll enjoy the overall story more. Either way I wish you well.
@@ParchedGoddess I'm not sure what about my post indicates that I didn't enjoy the story. I've read and re-read the entire series ad nauseam, from when the first book was released in trade paperback in 1990. Every time a new book was scheduled, I re-read the entire series up to that point to refresh myself. So my opinions of the characters built up as the books were released over a period of more than 20 years. Re-reading again now won't change anything. While Gawyn was annoying toward the end, Egwene became insufferable to me. Even Perrin's endless "nothing matters but Faile" sidebar that completely stopped his development for half the series wasn't as irritating as Egwene. In the end, the one character who went from bad to good the most was Nynaeve. At least her journey to overcome her personal struggles made her into one of the best characters in the series.
After hearing your argument I really kinda agree with it though I never hated Gawyn personally. I agree the tower point is baffling but I think he became loyal to his men more than anything after he chose to lead them which is why he didn’t go with Min. I will defend his death though. I don’t think all character arcs need to have the characters actually change that’s not it works in real life. Some people get stuck in the same failings Gawyn recognized his eventually but never overcame the fact that he though of himself as the hero or protagonist and he died for it. I personally really like how the end of his story was written
But I did like How Brandon Sanderson had him have conversation with his sister Elayne where she gently suggests that his irrational dislike for Rand emerges from rivalry and his desire to have Rand's place in the Story of the Wheel of Time. He wanted such responsibility and his image as a Hero. Gawyn felt that Rand appropriated his place in the Pattern woven by the Wheel of Time. That is a good hint for understanding some of Gawyn's strange behaviour. Good video. 😊
Im currently listening tp Book 11 on my 3rd time through and i have picked some holes in the Books as i am going through and there are 2 i am really not liking Gawin is one, the other the Sea Folk, i am really finding them ridiculously over arrogant and really unlikeable with no redeeming qualities at all, i think RJ went to far with them.
Mick C I had a lot of problems with the Sea Folk too. I agree he may have taken them too far. My blood pressure would go up every time they made an appearance.
I think that the Sea Folk were a cool idea to expand the world more but I almost wish they would have been used more to cement how ruthless the Seanchen were with people that fought back and practically illuminated them and took the wind weavers as domane. It happened a little but it seems that having Sea Folk try to participate in a mainly shorebound series can be very underused....
From his earliest memory, Gawyn was told his first duty was to watch over and protect his sister. He literally swore an oath at age four to do that very thing. Pretty much every decision he makes from then until he latches on to the rebel Aes Sedai is guided by that oath. His understanding of that oath steers him into some really murky ethical choices. He's not a bad guy. He just struggles to find his place in a world vastly different than the one he grew up in.
It's a good idea because both are essentially inconsequential on their own but if you mix the two together you give Egwene a chance to actually develop a relationship and you don't have to entirely re-write how characters move and interact. He joins the Whitecloaks and still loves Egwene. And that is what splits him into bad decisions.
A suggestion for a future Video or even a live show is. Why did Jordan not include organised Religion in WOT? We have characters who give thanks to the Creator and of course the Dark Friends obeying the Dark one and the White Cloaks being virtually a Monastic Military order but no known Priests or places of worship in any of the various groups either the Westlanders, Seanchan, Aiel or even the Shadow Spawn. I am not religious at all by the way, just wondering why when it is quire prevalent in most Fantasy.and could have added a far bit to this story.
Off topic: In chapter 1 “waiting” of Dragon Reborn A Tinker woman rides to meet Moraine. When Perrin asks how she knew to come and to what location, the tinker woman says that she “just knew” that if she’d come this way she would meet Moraine. Is it possible that Moraine is a secret Dreamer and sent this tinker a message of name and location in a dream???
Animosity toward Suane AND Loyalty toward Eliada. He grew up with her being his Mother's (capital M) advisor. There's a lot to unpack, but I think the main point is Gawyn holds his mother up as a pinnacle for nobility - you see this in the way he talks about her after he thinks she is dead - and refuses to believe that his Mother would make so many political mistakes because of a lover. His mother that called for the head of her ex-lover for attempting to cross her... Rand killing her makes more sense from his world view regardless of what anyone else would say. He is blinded by loyalty and reverence for his mother, and anytime he was with his mother, Eliada would have been nearby. Add in that Suane had already lost his sister multiple times... Also, the reason he stays to defend Tar Valon was because he knew Elaida hated the Younglings and would immediately have them all disbanded and probably imprisoned if he left. I can't remember exactly what book he mentions that - but it's immediately prior to him finding Egwene with the Aiel camped outside.. a city I can't remember. Where they were having secret rendezvous in a local inn.
Hope peeps don't mind a 9 months later comment, but it's kinda interesting that most of the forsaken turn to the shadow out of jealousy of Lews Therron, and the only person like that in the current timeline who is jealous of Rand in Gawyn. If he could channel, he might have joined up with the M'hael and become new chosen.
Everything you said is exactly my view on Gawyn. I can totally get behind your idea of him leaving the Tower with Siuan and company, but I want to add that I would have him not kill Hammar even before that. Having him meet up with Egwene in Salidar and have many opportunities after that to support her would make for such a better character. Give us that core loyal Gawyn back, please.
I liked his struggle with the white tower split. Even though he chose the wrong side he spent his time thinking of his men but even after he realizes his place he still acts like a selfish child taking on Demonder
I'll bet every golden mark in Tar Valon that if Demandred hadn't been sealed at the Bore but instead killed in the war, the Wheel would have used his soul to spin the thread of Gawyn on the 3rd Age.
I disagree that Gawyn caused Egwene's death. She was very strong willed and could have chosen to live. But I understand that the story called for her to have a heroic sacrifice
Gawyn is consistent in my view- he is a complete moral relativist. He focuses only on the choices available to him at the present time, in each scene, and consistently sacrifices the future for the path of least resistance. He is a contrast to Galad, a pure moral absolutist, until he grows toward the end of the series.
Although his character was frustrating, I liked how he was written. I feel like he was meant to be that person who had good intentions and was a nice person but was easy to be misled and deceived. I appreciated how he was loyal to those he cared about.
Maybe some characters arent meant to have a strong arc. Perhaps Gawyn is just a man that finds himself in over his head and is indecisive. I dont like his character but theres a lot of real people that arent my favorite. Those people should be in stories as well to make it more realistic.
I agree with a lot that is being said here. My own take is that Gawyn is simply indecisive when it comes to choosing sides... He seems to make a choice base on the moment and not the big picture. At the moment when Suann (sp) was deposed armed only with a lack of information, he chose to side with the tower. He then abandons the tower when he overhears that Egweene (sp) is being mistreated... again... a complete lack of information. He is just as set in his ways as his brother and sister once his mind is made up but he acts on impulse and emotion instead of using his head.
Gawyn was far more like able when we first meet him. The Tower coup was when he changed drastically. It seemed somewhat consistent with a young man who, with plausible reasons, found himself on a questionable side in a conflict. Siuan had lost Elayne twice by that time and severely tested his ability to follow orders or trust her authority. Not to mention that Morgase was pretty heated about the whole situation! I found it somewhat jarring that he actually managed to kill two Warder blade masters. Perhaps that is where it becomes the most difficult to suspend disbelief. I like NaeBlis's idea of having him leave the Tower with the ladies. It would get he and Egwene together sooner and he would see her competence earlier. I am sure that he would have questioned and challenged her too much for her liking because any question or challenge is not to her liking.
Using your change of Gawyn's character arc, I would make some other changes. First, I would have Gawyn save Egwene's life twice. First would be during the Seanchan raid. Rather than finding her after the raid is over and taking her away, his finds her during the battle, saves her life by almost sacrificing himself and she bonds him to save her. Then, he saves her in ToM from the Bloodknives, but she is unable to save him and he dies. Thinking about his sacrifice helps her get the mental strength to overcome Egwene's capture in World of Dreams by Mesaana.
I think much of his inconsistencies and lack of growth were intentional, due to his guilt and conflicting emotions. He reveres Galad, and wants to be able to always do what's "right," regardless of who it hurts. Unfortunately for him, he is neither as resolute or emotionless as Galad. He sides with elaida, BC he believes at the time that it's the right thing to do. He doesn't want to kill hammar or any other warders, but that is nearly inevitable due to circumstances. Later, once his blood has cooled, he starts to understand that he did choose wrong, but refuses to fully admit it to himself, and to cover that stays at the white tower. Deep down he does know tho, which is why he helps min, siuan, and leane to escape. I think he's also quite jealous of rand, both BC of egwene, and BC he believes he should be like rand, leading armies against the dark one. Once again, to cover up his own emotions to himself, gawyn turns that to hate and belief of a rumor that many tell him are untrue. At the end, while it is somewhat selfish, his drive to face demandred was truly a way he thought to redeem himself, and save everyone, while also being the hero. He knew the rings would kill him, but egwene had shown time and again that she was strong, and could overcome her emotions. Gawyn likely believed that meant, right or wrong, that she could overcome the loss of the warder bond, and himself. It shows some small level of growth, in that he was coming to trust in her strength, but also stagnation of his character, in that he still thought he could be the hero and save everyone. I believe this was intentional though. In the beginning, Gawyn was more likeable than Galad, and most everyone preferred him before the civil conflict in the tower. By the end, we've seen Galad grow as a character, whereas Gawyn stayed mostly the same. It's telling that he died against demandred, yet Galad didn't, even with the power the rings gave him. I think his character had much more depth and reasoning than ppl give him credit for, but i don't think jordan really intended him to be well liked.
I didn’t find him siding with elaida out of character. At that point I’m pretty sure Galad had already joined the whitecloaks. I’m pretty sure Gawyn was doing what he thought Galad would have done. That’s how he is. He’s a follower. He’s one of the only viewpoint characters that isn’t a leader. Without someone to point his sword for him he quickly makes the worst possible choices because he lacks the clarity of perspective of leadership. Not that all leaders are right either.
I'm not sure if he was under compulsion, like so many people have theorized, but he was definitely manipulated by Elaida. Suine "lost" Elaine multiple times, and Elaida has told him that she has her (in AS double speak, of course), and has told him on multiple occasions "you can see her in a little bit, but first do this for me," and because he trusts her, he follows along.
Gawyn sucks! Yup! Hes not a great guy really nor is he a very notable character. The inconsistencies in his actions are pretty consistant (ha! That was a mouthful!) and he wasn't handled the best...but....he helps Egwenes character grow in ways she would never have gotten the chance to. Is he great standalone? Nope. Buts he's integral to Egwenes arc, and lets be honest to the final battle as well, if he didn't die... i would bet dollars to donuts that Egwene would not have healed the scars from balefire in the way she did (and fight the way she did) effectively killing herself, but helping the greater battle. Without Gawyn and his inconsistant bumbling stupid antics, I think the light may have lost.
WoT Up! I think you might have a point about the necessity of Gawyn’s death for Egwene to do what was needed in TLB, but to have it happen the way it does makes Gawyn’s death seem like a plot device and not a natural progression of his character from start to finish for me.
@@danalou_who7765 thank you! Yeah I would have loved a smooth character progression for him as well...he had so much potential. He turned into a means to an end I think when Mr. Sandersom started running short on print. Can't wait to see how its handled in the show!
He is so close to being just a character that we hate rather than a badly written character. I would not be against Rafe making changes to him to make that jump. I have not decided on a direction I would want him to go though... any ideas?
personaly I see gawyn as a boy that never really became a man... always wanting to folow somebody and never doing what he WANTS or NEEDS to do just my 2 cents
I like to think that part of the reason that Gawyn had a bad storyline is that Birgitte took his place as Elayne’s protector and he had nowhere to go. He followed Egwene when she didn’t want him to, party because his role as first prince of the sword was usurped by Birgitte. He was a man without a place, and was terrible. 😂 I cheered when Demandred beat him 😂
The writing of his hating Rand was bad. Egwene could have easily convinced him. She knew that Mat brought word of her “death” and Rand was shocked. She also knew that the reason to go was to kill a Fordaken. And she never says it to him. That chapter pissed me off.
I threw up in my mouth a little when gawyn offered to plan the wedding. Offering this as evidence of his acceptance of a secondary role in relation to his amyrlin wife-to-be was just corny!
I actually like Gawyn, i don't like that he beleived the rumor, but other than that, i like him and his decisions. Even siding with eliada made sense, seeing suiann as the person endangering his family. Although letting her go would have been an odd decision and perhapse he should have never found them while they leave. But i definitely enjoyed a "good guy's" PoV on the "Wrong side"
You have more work to do to understand the character and come to respect his decisions. Gawyn is a fabulous character because he wants to get things done; at an almost superstar level of dedication.
It would be really interesting to see gawyn really overhauled for the show, I feel like he would make a great dynamic if he somehow managed to accompany the Wonder Girls in the same way Thom and Juilin do. It would also lend for some great character interactions whenever Mat pops up to help the girls, after he humbling both Gawyn and Galad in the tower. I don't really remember them having any other interactions outside of that, and I think it could lead to some good character moments.
I fully expect them to combine Galad and Gawyn into one character. The only question is if Galwyn ends up being a white cloak commander or marrying Egwene
I happen to think his story arc is important to show the failure in man. He had all the makings to be a great person, but failed time and again; it's a very human tale and probably will be one of the more interesting ones to show on TV. People like seeing good people fail sadly. What I am more curious about is if they will keep the dream sequences Egwene has with him given that it's a) heavily invasive, b) kinda rapey for both people and c) (and possibly my biggest concern) it means Egwene goes into that relationship having already done things with him but he is entirely unaware and thus is actually steps behind her. Not to mention she hints at going into his dreams multiple times without him ever knowing. Like wtf girl.
I personally didn't dislike him. And to your point about why he would take place in tower politics, couldn't it be because he was conflicted and chose to follow Eladia because she was a familiar presence in his life? She was his mothers advisor after all.
Traditionally the "step" brother or "step" sister in a fairy tale are always evil or bad. Galad is deliberately set up as the bad step brother initially when he reports Rand's intrusion, and Gawyn , as Galad's opposite, and early defender of Rand, is portrayed as the good guy. This happens very early in the series and sets up our expectations for the rest of the books. (First impressions stick with you!) So later, when Gawyn begins making poor decisions the reader is always waiting for the Gawyn's redemption. We hate Gawyn because that redemption never comes. So we don't only hate his actions, we feel betrayed by Gawyn, and that betrayal exists on multiple levels. We feel betrayal in empathy for our heroes in Randland, and we feel betrayal on behalf of our selves because our expectations for gawyn are not met. If Jordan did this deliberately than I would say that Gawyn is fantastically written. Jordan's twist is that Gawyn's and Galad's roles are reversed. Galad, the so good he's evil white cloak, becomes a hero, while Gawyn, the friendly and loyal first prince of the sword becomes a villain; or at least a dark character. Personally I think that maybe Gawyn was a character who was meant to be redeemed in Memory of Light, but was not because of Jordan's passing and Brandon Sanderson having a different vision for the character. Or maybe we were meant to end up hating Gawyn all along. Who knows ?
I think Gawyn should have either : - Fled the White Tower during Elaida's insurrection, and returned to Andor to resume his duties as future First Prince of the Sword. Or as a male escort/happy ending masseur. He could have been useful as either. Or - Gawyn should have died at Dumai's Wells.
Although, I will point out that other people in the series have acted Gawyny, and they are usually under the influence of subtle compulsion by a Forsaken.
Gawn seemed inconsistent to me too, until I read his talk with Elayne in the rowboat. After that conversation it all came together for me and his character made a lot more sense, and actually seemed very well thought out to me.
He had an image of the life he wanted to lead, and who he wanted to be, but the Wheel took him into subservient roles, while Rand, who he should have continued to like, went on to live the life and role gawyne would have seen for himself as - leading men, protecting etc...
His refusal to accept his place as glorified body guard with little personal power, and his deeply buried guilt in choosing the wrong side of the Aes Sedai conflict are what made him act the way he did - one time angry and vengeful and irrational, the next minute trying to assuage his guilt by helping min, or placating Egwene later.
For me this completely explained his back and forth behavior. His anger at Siuan and frustrations with Elayne/Min/Egwene along with the notion that the girls must be protected from Aes Sedi schemes, caused him to make a really dumb decision that he quickly figured out was the wrong one, but like so many other real people, he refused to acknowledge it and doubled down by continuing to follow Elida in hopes of getting revenge on Rand until Bryne and Elanye set him on the path, to being slightly less of a jealous idiot.
Gawyn didn't start using his brain till Towers of Midnight. The 13th book in the series. Second to last book. Too little. Too late.
I see Gavin as a tool that RJ used to make his point about balance more clear. Rand grows and achieves balance with his romantic interests and with himself while Gavin remains the same and doesn't achieve any balance. Therefore Rand is successfu in the endl and Gavin is not. I don't think he is badly written just a remainder that in this universe men and women must work together .
Exactly, that is why he fights Demandred. All of the ones who fight him are, in truth, confronting their deepest character flaws.
Gawyn: For him, Demandred represents jealousy towards the Dragon, and resenting always being being the runner-up and never the best (applies to his relationship with Galad, Rand and Egwene). He fails to evolve past those flaws and dies to them (he quite literally runs to his death because he was tired of being unimportant)
Galad: Pride in oneself and one’s beliefs. He gets wounded to an almost fatal degree, but manages to survive and even harm Demandred. By the time we leave him, Galad, while still self-righteous to a fault, has begun to change, unlike Gawyn, and is starting to improve
Logain: Hatred and resentment. Leaves a permanent scar on him, but he also survives. What was done to him in the course of the series will never be forgotten, but he will try to redirect that hatred towards the greater good
Lan: Placing one’s responsibility and mission above love, trying to get rid of any kind of possible affection in one’s life. Lan not only survives, but defeats it, being the only one of the 4 to be absolutely triumphant. By the end of the books, he has found a balance between his responsibilities and his love to Nyneave and others
I thought of the attempts on Demandred's life as The Three Billy Goats Gruff. Except four. And bloodier.
He should've died saving Egewe.... because he had been pretty shitty character
Nearly every single person Gawyn knows, loves, or trusts, tells him Rand did not kill Morgase. Still believes rumor. He is literally the one character I came to strongly dislike.
Sandra Dube Amen! It makes no sense.
@@danalou_who7765 It's insanely frustrating, but it makes perfect sense. Gawyn's so realistic, relevant & similar to issues we're facing today. I can think of a very vocal, agitated segment of the American population who act the same way.
Circumstances could conspire for almost any person in the real world to fall into a similar twisted perspective as Gawyn's.
@Robertson Thirdly He is still throwing away every single person who is telling him that, no, Rand did not kill her. Even his own sister. He is willfully ignoring every single person who tells him otherwise. That's not 'love for his mother,' that's narcissism. It's his own belief that he is right so everyone else has to be wrong, in spite of all evidence against him.
He believes it's Rand because he wanted to. His conversation with Elayne in the rowboat made him realize he didn't truly believe it, but he was jealous that an unknown sheepherder has become the hero of an era while he believes he's only ever made mistakes and picked the wrong sides. His conversation with Bryne indicates as much as well. His ending was completely in line with him knowing that killing Demandred would quickly dismantle the Shadow's forces, and he arrogantly believed that he was a swordsman on par with Lan while wearing the ring of the bloodknives; little did he know, Demandred was greater than any Swordsman of the 3rd age regarding technique and also wielding the Power (despite the fact Lan killed him). He's a profoundly flawed character- hot-headed, stubborn, arrogant, and generally unchanging. I'd say he's the epitome of his heart warring against itself.
It's clear that critical theory in writing isn't a strong background in some of the analysis I've heard on "The Wheel of Time" and here I have to call out some issues in your analysis. In literature, a defining difference between literary fiction and other genres is the tragedy of not changing, failing to grow when the opportunity presents itself. Gawyn is a foil that mirrors many of the qualities and failures for King Arthur's knights. Galad is too. A writer will create characters to foil with other characters to show just how wrong things can go and why.
Gawyn is consistently written to jump to the wrong conclusion and believe his own belief over others. He at first jumps to the wrong conclusion of Rand when they meet. Elayne eventually talks him out of raising the alarm. Gawyn knows Rand for a brief time. They're not friends. I wouldn't even say they're well acquainted. He may feel loyalty to the death to people, but how he shows that isn't the same as the loyalty itself. Meaning, he is loyal, but he is consistently loyal in his own way, in the way he thinks best. Just as Elaida is a foil for Egwene, Gawyn is a foil to Galad and three main protagonist males from Emond's Field. Where all of them have strong ethics and morals, sometimes rigidly so we see change for Rand, Mat, Perrin, and Galad when their worldview is tested.
When Gawyn's worldview is tested, he fails and that is quite a human trait. He is well written as a foil and character. He is a well written tragic hero that gets it wrong almost all of the time and he faces the consequence for it in the end. Not everyone changes and if everyone changed in the WOT, it wouldn't be believable. Elaida doesn't really change either, though she is presented opportunity to do so. Same with a number of the white cloaks, other aes sedai, and even the forsaken.
Their failure to change shows a great contrast in the growth of other characters, why growth is hard, how people don't always get it right. I would say Gawyn's friends fail him in certain ways. Min doesn't scold him for his actions in taking Elaida's side, she doesn't explain anything to him that she knows to be true either. He helps her even though at that point, he believes himself to be correct and he has yet no reason to doubt himself. Egwene is sometimes vague too. So is Elayne. Gawyn is operating on limited information and exposure to the events unfolding elsewhere. It's easy to judge how he should have responded when we have the full picture and every other character's POV. Gawyn doesn't have those things. He is doing what many people do, fill in the blanks with his own ideas. Robert Jordan remembered that Gawyn doesn't have all the information and as a result Gawyn acts based on what he thinks and believes. It's an awesome character flaw that is realistic and quite human.
Very well put
@@jerichohill487 Thank you! Very well explained!
That's not critical theory. Critical theory is any approach to social philosophy that sees social structures and social assumptions as more important then individual actions. A critical approach to Gawyn would focus on his station as prince, and how he acts out that roll. Not his personal character faults that critical theory would see as mostly unimportant.
@@myself2noone Actually, critical theory which I know what it is can be represented in the choices and behaviors characters exhibit in fact, they're always represented that way as that is how themes and the philosophies behind them are shown in writing - through character behaviors and character choices including their faults that develop. Of course his roles as first prince has an impact, his upbringing which translates into his worldview, choices and behaviors.
Sorry to resurrect an old comment, but Gawyn IS poorly written. You comment that Min doesn't explain anything to Gawyn about the situation. Based on how Gawyn reacts to his loved ones telling him that Rand didn't kill his mother, do you really think he would have listened? He is the other extreme from Galad. Where Galad always does what is right no matter what, Gawyn always thinks HE is right no matter what. Not only that but he definitely does work as a plot device for Jordan. Jordan needed a catalyst for how Siuan gets overthrown? Oh Gawyn, though just a youngling, is able to defeat his trainer. He can literally do anything Jordan needs him to do, including beating 2 warders at once and one of those is someone who has been known to beat Lan on occasion. He's just a plot device.
Gawyn really was likeable in when we first met him. After the tower split he made some decisions that made me mad. Instead of going to his mom and helping her he stayed to fight for a woman that he owed no loyalty to. Beyond that, his unreasonable hatred of Rand made him really unlikeable. Finally, as you mentioned, his overwhelming desire to be a hero led him (especially with the bloodknife terangreal) and Egwene to their deaths. He really made me mad!!
I agree completely. He acted so out of character to me that he was nearly irredeemable. Maybe his part in the pattern was to suck.
He was born to be the first prince of the sword, forever the second most important person in Andor. Not being able to follow orders would have been beaten out of him since birth. His behavior constantly contradicts this
Gawyn is hated because he didn't side with what people think was the correct side during the tower split. Gawyn killed two warder blademasters, decided the outcome of the tower split, and formed the Younglings. Gawyn was mislead and lied to by people whose fates would have been different had they actually spoke truth. Gawyn saves the Amyrlin and is vilified for not being a lap dog. Gawyn has a brutal arc that is disliked by many but his arc is an allegory of discarded duty. Gawyn was fated and sworn to be the Prince of the sword for Elyane. If he was allowed to follow this path and stayed on it. Gawyn would have lived, Elayne would have thrown away fewer lives needlessly and perhaps Egwene lives. Who knows?
Great comments Fred, very interesting take
Who lied to him? Not being told what your sister is doing on a secret mission isn't being lied to.
One side literally worked for the devil mortality isn't objective in that world. He was 100% on the wrong side it's a black and white issue.
@@J3-FF_The_Troll His duty is to protect Elayne, even when she doesn't want it. Even when she claims not to need it.
Siuan was lying to him, preventing him from fulfilling his duty.
@@dorvinion Siuan never lied to him. Not being told where she is for his and her safety is not lying. He's a self important ass who always makes a choice based on what the plot needs him to do.
He and Egwyne were made for each other.
Gawyn isn't as inconsistent as he seems at first blush. He (subconsciously) chooses to believe things that give him the opportunity to feel like a hero, and then acts accordingly.
Loyalty is just one way to feel heroic, but not the only.
Yes! and this makes him a Real (stupid) character, but not likable to me.
@@sherizaahd do you like Egwayne then?
The beard is coming in nicely Nae’Blis. Keep it coming. Cheers
I would say you're wrong about the Siuan issue. Elaida was his mother's advisor for most of his life, so it's likely that Gawyn would see himself as loyal to her.
In his inner monologue it even says he never liked or trusted Elaida. Dude is a plot device. plain and simple
@@J3-FF_The_Troll yeah. Basically.
Isn't he exactly the person the pattern needed him to be? Without him the unstained tower doesn't break. Without him Logain doesn't get healed, Egwene doesnt have her support squad upon becoming Amyrlin. If he believes Egwene about Rand then he either he frees Rand or he fails and dies. So then either dumai's wells never happens or Egwene dies in the attack on the tower. He, like many other characters is just a slave to the pattern. All of his decisions (or indecision) work out for the best in accordance with prophecy. This is not the elipse or the loopty loop of time it is the wheel of time. You can not have a wheel and free will. They are not compatible. Gawyn is just as important as Egwene or Rand. He and other characters like Elaida deserve way better because they have to do their jobs and only ever receives scorn or horrible lives because of it. At least in my opinion anyway. /shrug
Interesting
Nicely made argument, and I have to say... you persuaded me to agree.
It could be argued, and I will, that Gawyn's role in the breaking of the tower was minuscule. The Younglings stopped the other warders from rescuing Siuan.... Siuan is rescued by Gawyn anyway. Gawyn didn't break the tower, and the younglings were only a small part of the forces fighting that day, even without them Siuan's side would have lost. The character could have easily been written as Nae-blis said... fighting breaks out, he concentrates on seeing Min to safety... Min in turn is freeing everyone else in the process (Lianne, Siuan and Logain). He then leaves the tower with them to get answers from Siuan. He doesn't need to be at Dumai's Wells, as his character only acts as a different set of eyes on the situation. He doesn't need to be harassing Gareth outside of the tower. Egwene's whole arc could take place exactly the same with Gawyn meeting up with her after she becomes Amyrlin. He could even split from them and head to Caemlyn to fight Rand or find out about his mother and be in place when Elaine gets there. His loyalty to Elaida never makes any sense.
@@robertgordon8159 Interesting points, but I will counter with just this. Even Elaida recognized that without the help of Gawyn and his Younglings, Siuan and Liane would have escaped being stilled as the warders were on their way to rescuing them prior to Elaida's coup reached the Amyrlin's offices. It was Gawyn's force that cleared the way for Elaida's group to invade the offices. Without Gawyn's boys stopping the warders specifically (and they were the only force who dared to do so), Elaida's crew would have reached an empty office, and it would have given Siuan and the Blues time to react and repel the uprising with their green allies. At which time, the announcement of the Black Ajah existing could be named, and ALL of the coup members would be charged with it.
Keep in mind that they didn't just kill one or two or even a handful of warders, but over a dozen. Even that small group of Aes Sedai would not have overcome that many warders, considering that they would not have been able to channel against them until the last instant. At least not without showing themselves to be Black Ajah.
From there, the tower never breaks... and everything changes.
By that rationale everyone is what was needed of them as a good outcome was attained at the end of the WoT. Whether or not free will exists, you have to judge anyone on the presumption that it does otherwise you descend into an entirely consequentianalist morality. Maybe Fain was a great guy for driving the Winter's Night attack, otherwise the Emonds Fielder 5 wouldn't have set out with Moiraine. Morality vanishes under this approach. Gawyn sucked because by the evaluation of anyone with free will he was self-centred and inconsistent. The fact that ultimately it played out well is irrelevant.
I'm actually more of the mind that his character inconsistencies are kind of the whole point. He admits it himself later in the series, that he envies Rand who is out there achieving things while Gawyn himself simply ends up spinning his wheels and getting nowhere. All of the choices he makes, like siding with Elaida, are him trying and failing to get somewhere with his life, except that he consistently makes the wrong decisions and digs his hole even deeper.
One thing I've always wondered, when Gawyn faces off against Demandred he says to himself that that he(Demandred) looks oddly familiar, and for the life of me I don't know why. I once re-read the entire series to try and figure out when they would have encountered each other before that point but I'm still scratching my head. Any ideas?
I always thought that he was spun out of the wheel again, and had fought Demandred in the past, and lost in the past, over and over again. So, finally defeating him was the closure he needed, no matter the cost.
At least that thought kept me from throwing the book thru the window, and having to repair the window.
And he was a very short sighted prick, but so was his brother.
There is a theory that Gawyn is under compulsion.
maybe it wasn't necessarily physical appearance he was talking about, but rather the kind of expression Demandred wore and behavior he exhibited that seemed familiar. And who would they remind him of? Himself. Not identical, but as Chris Eaton pointed out in another comment, Gawyn is a real little brother to Galad, the one who is a little bit better at pretty much everything. I suspect he may feel smoe of that towards Rand himself as well. Remember that Demandred's biggest trait was being known for always being second best. It may be that he sees Demandred as something of a kindred spirit in that way, but decides to reject the path Demandred took and try to excise it from himself by killing the man, and dying in the attempt.
In the teal world we have paintings of people from centuries ago. Who look alot like contemporary folks because they are thier ancestors. Like if you were to look like your grandmother or whatever. Gawain probably fought the man's descendants. After all being a Forsaken absolutely would've gotten you laid a whole bunch. When you consider that in reality serial killers have massive all female fan clubs..
Naah, he's showing his loyalty in the Tower battle.
He's loyal to Elida.
He grew up with her in the palace, she's one of the adult authority figures which defined his early life.
Now, I'm with you on it being strange that he stayed after with the younglings.
But it makes perfect sense that he sided with Elida against Suian (who he hates for the reasons you noted).
The other point i think that this video is missing is that he has been trained to be "responsable for people" for his entire life and feals that the younglings are his responsablity because he sided with Elida and got them into that whole mess.
His Loyalty as Nae'blis was talking about isnt to the tower but to the younglings and takes quite a bit for that to break.
And Elaida betrays him and his younglings. That's the part I never understood. It should have been obvious that Elaida wanted them gone much earlier, but he still stuck around on a promise he knew to be empty. Or was it the weight of his sins keeping him chained?
@@rowanmeads8598 exactly, but why would he still stay after it was clear that Elaida wanted the younglings gone? After Dumais well, the logical thing to do would be to go to Andor or at least go and search for Elayne, many younglings would likely follow him.
@@MDP1702 because thats is only clear because we are told it. It isnt clear to him.
@@rowanmeads8598 What? That Elaida betrayed him? I remember a part where Gawyn thinks himself that the initial ploy was just to get rid of the Younglings. Honestly it doesn't matter, after being sidelined he should have left instead of waiting in some backwater village and attack the Aes Sedai army in small strikes when they arrive. He knows elayne or Egwene aren't in the white tower, so at that point nothing should be keeping him there.
Egwene can then bond Egeanin after Egeanin saves Egwene from the Sharans. Egwene's can still die in the same way. Her Sa'angrael lacks the filter so can overextend herself. I do not believe Gawyn's death had anything to do with her overextending herself anyway. Remember, she had bonded Egeanin and had come to accept Gawyn's death
I don't think his actions are as "out of character" as you describe. I see him as being the ultimate "torn" character and therefore his actions are a result of his choosing (normally forced to choose) between conflicting ideas throughout the story.
As per his talks with Bryne, he knows he has a duty as Prince, but he is torn because he also has a feeling of wanting to do greater deeds. He loves Egwene, but is torn because he knows Galad loves her too. He is torn between supporting 2 Amyrlins that he despises. He is the character that most battles inner conflict throughout the story.
I agree with everything. I actually liked him until he attacked the warders.
One thing I want to add is Gawyn is the steriotypical little brother. His big brother is perfect and he never measured up to him. Gawyn had great sword skills, but not like his big bro. He was handsome, but not Greek God handsome. I think he was really always trying to make his mark on the world, do something legendary, and make a big difference. His logic and decision making skills were either not very good, or not as important as making a big splash. He is basically an emotional toddler.
When you put it like that he reminds me alot of Barid Bel Medar.
Agreed. I don't think his character was badly written, I think he had a flawed character. It's easy to look amiable and friendly when everything is going well. It's how you react when all hell breaks loose that reveals who you truly are. At that first key moment Gawyn reacted badly and he went downhill from there, stubbornly sticking to his wrong choices even when he knew he couldn't trust those he was supporting. His death was very much that of a petulant toddler and was a natural consequence of his downward spiral.
I agree. Imo it would've been much more consistent with his character as it's depicted in the first 3,5 books that he'd decide to defect to the rebel Aes Sedai already during the split, seeing as he knew that Elayne and Egwene were working for the Amyrlin that Elaida just deposed. It'd make much more sense for him to take this as an opportunity to leave Tar Valon in order to search for his sister and Egwene, either by joining the rebels and hope to find them through their networks, or by just traveling out into the world. Him starting to believe the rumor that Rand killed his mother should've ended fairly quickly, either as soon as he met Egwene and was told by her that Rand didn't do it, or just as soon as he hears that Elayne is still alive and thus concludes that if the rumor that Rand killed Elayne isn't true, then the rumor about Morgase is probably also not true. After that, his character arc should've focused similarly to the final 2 books on him struggling to accept that he won't be a hero but rather should serve where he could do the most good. And finally, he shouldn't have sacrificed himself trying to be the hero who killed Demandred because that's just stupid. I did like the idea of him using those blood rings, but not in order to kill darkfriends but instead in order to protect Egwene. Perhaps have him use all 3 rings in a desperate attempt to save her, succeed but them succumb to the side effects and die, causing the same reaction in Egwene as we see in the book.
I see genuine human behavior & motivations is nearly all of Gawyn's actions. I think he's so hated because in our minds, in the theoretical hypothetical, we all want to believe we would do better than we really would. Even supposed masters of their own destinies are tossed around by the chaos of circumstance & fail to see their world objectively. We get into difficult, uncomfortable situations we never would've chosen for ourselves if things had gone as we hoped or planned.
As a few powerful character in WoT come to understand. A leader is not more in control of themself or the world than the average person. But if they can keep their feet planted & bend to the tempest winds that are life's unforeseeable pressures, they create the illusion of stability to everyone else tossed about in the storm.
When I watch this video with the auto-subtitles on at about 1:35 instead of gawyn trakand it says goblin jerk. Does anyone else see that?
I feel similar to your views as expressed here about Gawyn. Although it's my opinion that he was more forgotten by Mr. Jordan and sidelined after he realised he'd missed an arc in earlier books. His attempts to address this are where the inconsistencies stem from I feel. I think initially he was meant to be a more important character, like a Thom Merrilin or Lan but as opportunities were missed he began to become just a loose end.
Gawyn continually suffered from guilt-driven angst that produced indecision. Classic case!
I would totally have to disagree with you on it being Godwin's fault that eek Wayne got killed. Please don't mind the spelling as I am using talk to text so some of the names are not going to come out right so bear with me. Anyway egwene alvear new what she was doing when she burned herself out because she realized that was the only way. She made one of the biggest sacrifices in The Wheel of Time series just save the world. no we cannot blame Godwin for can for what she did
I’m very much in agreement with you about the changes the show should make with Gawyn. I had thought Gawyn more a character we hate than a poorly written one, but you make a good case about his lack of development and inconsistencies. I had put this down to him being highly conflicted and somewhat underwritten. But you may unfortunately be right that it was more him doing what RJ needed him to. I will pay close attention to this on my current reread.
It's funny how you describe Gawyn because his character description up to the points 5 minutes 30 seconds that you've given him pretty much describes everyone's character description in this series pretty much being self-importance knowing better than everyone else and deciding that his way is better pretty much describes everyone in The Wheel of Time except for a very very few characters maybe Min and maybe Perrin.
Jordon wrote himself into a corner with him. If he did leave the tower with Min and company he would never of left Eleyne's side after reuniting with her at Saladar and he would of been a constant problem and hindrance to her story. That would also of kept him from becoming Egwanes warder.
I will defend him dying to Demondread because that act of Egwane overcoming his loss as her warder and continuing to fight shows her grit and resolve.
I think the writing for Gawyn was intentional. He had a dynamic with Galad narratively. Galad was more stiff and seemingly uncaring at first with Gawyn the opposite. But Galad despite his flaws, believed in something and was steadfast. Even when he grew as a character and changed himself for the better, he did it under his beliefs. And through that positively changed the world around him. Gawyn almost threw the last battle where the stakes couldn't be higher. Good job, Gawyn.
And all the women in his life all think THEY know better then the all the men in THEIR lives. So, who is right here?
Nae'blis. I like your change of Gawyn's story for the TV series. He can get to the same place (Egwene's warder) as he did by ending up in Salidar. The Younglings (without Gawayn) are a group that can be removed from the TV series without a huge loss.
We would just have have more time trying to be there for Egwene but not really helping her because he refuses to believe she is Amarylin
I agree that Gawyn is not the most likable character in the series, but I disagree with your reasoning. Gawyn suffers from not knowing who he really is. Almost everyone in the Wheel of Time KNOWS who they are and what role they are supposed to fill in life.
Rand KNOWS he is the Dragon Reborn. Egwene KNOWS she is the Amyrlin Seat. Perrin KNOWS he is the Wolfbrother. Mat KNOWS that he is the General/Gambler. The same can be said for so many other characters.
Gawyn does not. He is constantly looking for someone to base his own sense of self on, only to have his perceptions of that person come up short and therefore shake his understanding of his own self time and time again. He comes to think that he alone knows what is best for everyone else and ends up being wrong once again and eventually paying the ultimate price for that.
I like to think of his path as the opposite of Rand's. Rand slowly left his humanity behind until he was forced to remember that he was human. Gawyn seemed to think that he was the same person he always was and that it was everyone else that was changing, but in reality he was slowly becoming a monster himself. By the end, it was just too late for Gawyn to change.
I have just finished listening(3rd time through the Books) to the end of chapter 4 of TGS, for those who don’t remember it finishes with a few POV paragraphs of Gawin and it is a good view of Gawin beginning to realise he may have made a mistake and starting to doubt his choices.
Added
The further i get into my current read through ofTGS the more i feel Brandon may have a better grasp on Gawin then RJ did.
I agree with your assessment of Gawyn on every point except one. I don't feel that Gawyn's attempt to kill Demandred led directly to Egwene's death. While the action was certainly selfish in the extreme, I think that Egwene would have done what she did regardless. In fact, the death of Gawyn likely led to her complete commitment in that last push by the Aes Sedai. Without that push, the Sharan channelers would have still been on the field, and Taim would too. While Gawyn was a selfish ass, his death actually opened the way for Egwene to strike a fatal blow against the Shadow's forces in the Last Battle.
From a writer's standpoint, Gawyn is a great character. Everything about Gawyn is centered around covering up his insecurities and fears in order to appear as strong as those around him. He HAS to stay and serve Elaida because Siuan sent Elayne from the tower to hunt the Black Ajah without him. That made Siuan evil and Elaida, her openly hostile opponent in the tower, good. Even though he loved Egwene, he HAD to believe she would lie to protect Rand because everyone knows Rand is the only hope of standing against the Dark One. He HAS to oppose Garyth Bryne because he sides with the Tower in Exile and was banished from Andor by his mother. In none of these situations does he try to learn the truth. He impulsively throws his loyalty behind those who are saying what his heart says must be true at that moment, then he does the same thing his did when Thom left: He holds on to that bad decision despite all evidence while he looks for a way to change his position without seeming like he did so to correct a mistake. This, of course, digs him deeper and deeper into holes that eventually lead to not only his death, but the death of Egwene. Gawyn is a cleverly crafted character that is all too realistic. He is nothing more than a boy thrust into a man's role who had no man he was emotionally bonded to that was able to guide him in the important lessons he needed to learn. Only Thom would have been able to fulfill that role, and he was kicked out of Andor before he got the chance to do for Gawyn what he did for Perrin, Mat, and Rand. All the other men in Gawyn's life, including Galad, taught him the mechanics of being a leader, but nobody knew what he really needed was guidance on being a man. By the time he had to stand up and make decisions as a man, he wasn't prepared, and eventually the woman he loved paid the price. That is why I hated Gawyn, but then I realized he was made that way by the adults in his past. Maybe that is what Robert Jordan wanted people to see when it comes to Gawyn.
RayVision3D So maybe he is the mirror image of the 19 year old boy, who is loyal to his country because every day in school he swear to his flag and sing the American Anthem without knowing, why to be loyal. And so he let send him to a land, where he no belong, because it was said, did horrible deeds, because it was said, and die in the mud as a tragic boy, who has never the chance to grow up, because it was said.
P.S. Sorry, i'm no native english speaker.
6:30 the idea that Egwene didn’t have control makes my blood boil she knew exactly what she was doing.
Her thought process at the time is written down for every one to read.
Saying that “ShE wEnT cRaZy CuZ HeR wArDeR dIeD iN a WaR” is simply not true she bonded another and killed Egwene (har self) so that The Amyrlin Seat (also her) can lead the battle and she did what she knew was best she restored the pattern’s integrity by weaving the Flame of Tar valon, her last weaving.
I guess I haven't discussed the characters too much with others. I never had a problem with Gawyn and didn't realize he was unpopular. My most hated character was Egwene. She got continually more insufferable as each book progressed. As a younger and inexperienced person, she repeatedly put herself above others who had more qualifications than she did. After learning of Rand's importance and the details of the prophecies, she continually attempts to counter him while saying she's on his side. She feels - with no justification - that she knows better than Rand. She lied and broke rules repeatedly and felt it was completely okay when the wise ones forgave her, but later becomes completely unforgiving of others breaking rules. If Gawyn displays "toxic masculinity", Egwene is the epitome of "toxic femininity". I cheered when she died in A Memory of Light.
Gawyn didn't know Rand. He'd met him once. That's not justification for having him disbelieve negative things about him. What I see being described as inconsistencies for Gawyn read to me more like character development. His mother made him responsible for Elayne from earliest childhood, blamed him (and Galad) for her disappearing from the Tower. The only thing warring for his loyalty is his duty (to Elayne, Andor, and to a lesser extent to the Tower since his mother ordered him there and his sister trained there), and his love for Egwene. A man torn between two competing loyalties can make decisions for or against either at different times. Especially if he makes some of these without all the information (as it appears he did when killing Hamar). It's not inconsistency of writing or character, but inconsistency of a person's thought processes and decision-making. In the process of this, he saw and was responsible for a lot of death. He without a doubt suffered from PTSD.
For those who dislike Gawyn because of the way he was written, either suck it up and accept it or don't watch the show. To recommend changing his story arc because you don't like some of it ignores the ramifications it would have on the rest of the story. I personally didn't like how Rand was made insane really fast, then slowed down as the series dragged on, as if Jordan realized the insanity wasn't progressing at the right pace. I also disliked how powerful Padan Fain got, book after book, so much so that he radiated an aura of death (around book 10 or so), only to disappear for a book or two until Sanderson was ready to finish his story. And then he wasn't as powerful. For a while, it appeared that Padan Fain was accumulating every type of evil and would eventually be the Dark One that Rand fought at the last battle. Then Perrin finishes him off with hardly any problems. He spent 14 books chasing Rand and Rand didn't even have to deal with him? I could point to several plot lines I disagree with, but I know that if I want them changed it will change the rest of the story, and that's not what I want to see.
Wow, I don't know if I've ever disagreed with someone more than I disagree with you on your breakdown of Egwene and Gawyn, lol. You've obviously read the books but it really doesn't sound like you enjoyed them much; if you haven't already, try a re-read. I found major life changes, like becoming a mother, changed how certain stories I loved impacted me. Not saying you'll change your options on Gawyn, I know I didn't (still hate him), but maybe you'll enjoy the overall story more. Either way I wish you well.
@@ParchedGoddess I'm not sure what about my post indicates that I didn't enjoy the story. I've read and re-read the entire series ad nauseam, from when the first book was released in trade paperback in 1990. Every time a new book was scheduled, I re-read the entire series up to that point to refresh myself. So my opinions of the characters built up as the books were released over a period of more than 20 years. Re-reading again now won't change anything. While Gawyn was annoying toward the end, Egwene became insufferable to me. Even Perrin's endless "nothing matters but Faile" sidebar that completely stopped his development for half the series wasn't as irritating as Egwene. In the end, the one character who went from bad to good the most was Nynaeve. At least her journey to overcome her personal struggles made her into one of the best characters in the series.
I used to have dreams about him! He didn’t make all the best decisions in the world. Very emotionally driven. But I definitely don’t hate him
Filming quick tip:
Don't wear a white shirt, and lock the white balance on your camera!
I agree with yout thoughts on Gawyn.
But isn't he at least worthy of a "full" character analysis? "Notable possessions" and such?
Agree, Kate and Michael REALLY made the audiobook truly an enjoyable listen.
Damn just started Lord of chaos today guess I can't finish this video 😔
How would you recommend fixing the character of Gawyn Trakand for the TV series?
After hearing your argument I really kinda agree with it though I never hated Gawyn personally. I agree the tower point is baffling but I think he became loyal to his men more than anything after he chose to lead them which is why he didn’t go with Min. I will defend his death though. I don’t think all character arcs need to have the characters actually change that’s not it works in real life. Some people get stuck in the same failings Gawyn recognized his eventually but never overcame the fact that he though of himself as the hero or protagonist and he died for it. I personally really like how the end of his story was written
But I did like How Brandon Sanderson had him have conversation with his sister Elayne where she gently suggests that his irrational dislike for Rand emerges from rivalry and his desire to have Rand's place in the Story of the Wheel of Time. He wanted such responsibility and his image as a Hero. Gawyn felt that Rand appropriated his place in the Pattern woven by the Wheel of Time. That is a good hint for understanding some of Gawyn's strange behaviour.
Good video. 😊
Im currently listening tp Book 11 on my 3rd time through and i have picked some holes in the Books as i am going through and there are 2 i am really not liking Gawin is one, the other the Sea Folk, i am really finding them ridiculously over arrogant and really unlikeable with no redeeming qualities at all, i think RJ went to far with them.
Mick C I had a lot of problems with the Sea Folk too. I agree he may have taken them too far. My blood pressure would go up every time they made an appearance.
I think that the Sea Folk were a cool idea to expand the world more but I almost wish they would have been used more to cement how ruthless the Seanchen were with people that fought back and practically illuminated them and took the wind weavers as domane. It happened a little but it seems that having Sea Folk try to participate in a mainly shorebound series can be very underused....
From his earliest memory, Gawyn was told his first duty was to watch over and protect his sister. He literally swore an oath at age four to do that very thing. Pretty much every decision he makes from then until he latches on to the rebel Aes Sedai is guided by that oath. His understanding of that oath steers him into some really murky ethical choices. He's not a bad guy. He just struggles to find his place in a world vastly different than the one he grew up in.
Daniel Greene suggested both Trakand brothers could be combined to one character... but I think that would be a little strange.
Daniel and I disagree on this. Gawyn and Galad could not be more different.
It's a good idea because both are essentially inconsequential on their own but if you mix the two together you give Egwene a chance to actually develop a relationship and you don't have to entirely re-write how characters move and interact. He joins the Whitecloaks and still loves Egwene. And that is what splits him into bad decisions.
A suggestion for a future Video or even a live show is.
Why did Jordan not include organised Religion in WOT?
We have characters who give thanks to the Creator and of course the Dark Friends obeying the Dark one and the White Cloaks being virtually a Monastic Military order but no known Priests or places of worship in any of the various groups either the Westlanders, Seanchan, Aiel or even the Shadow Spawn.
I am not religious at all by the way, just wondering why when it is quire prevalent in most Fantasy.and could have added a far bit to this story.
Off topic:
In chapter 1 “waiting” of Dragon Reborn
A Tinker woman rides to meet Moraine.
When Perrin asks how she knew to come and to what location, the tinker woman says that she “just knew” that if she’d come this way she would meet Moraine.
Is it possible that Moraine is a secret Dreamer and sent this tinker a message of name and location in a dream???
Yea... he was the one charecter i was glad when he bit the dust.
Animosity toward Suane AND Loyalty toward Eliada. He grew up with her being his Mother's (capital M) advisor. There's a lot to unpack, but I think the main point is Gawyn holds his mother up as a pinnacle for nobility - you see this in the way he talks about her after he thinks she is dead - and refuses to believe that his Mother would make so many political mistakes because of a lover. His mother that called for the head of her ex-lover for attempting to cross her... Rand killing her makes more sense from his world view regardless of what anyone else would say. He is blinded by loyalty and reverence for his mother, and anytime he was with his mother, Eliada would have been nearby. Add in that Suane had already lost his sister multiple times...
Also, the reason he stays to defend Tar Valon was because he knew Elaida hated the Younglings and would immediately have them all disbanded and probably imprisoned if he left. I can't remember exactly what book he mentions that - but it's immediately prior to him finding Egwene with the Aiel camped outside.. a city I can't remember. Where they were having secret rendezvous in a local inn.
Cairhein
I've known a person exactly like Gawyn.
Rafe should make the changes you suggested. I always thought the same thing.
Would rather read a book about Faile being kidnaped by Bowser again then read a single Gawyn pov chapter.
Hey, is it possible that he was under compulsion?
Hope peeps don't mind a 9 months later comment, but it's kinda interesting that most of the forsaken turn to the shadow out of jealousy of Lews Therron, and the only person like that in the current timeline who is jealous of Rand in Gawyn. If he could channel, he might have joined up with the M'hael and become new chosen.
Everything you said is exactly my view on Gawyn. I can totally get behind your idea of him leaving the Tower with Siuan and company, but I want to add that I would have him not kill Hammar even before that. Having him meet up with Egwene in Salidar and have many opportunities after that to support her would make for such a better character. Give us that core loyal Gawyn back, please.
I liked his struggle with the white tower split. Even though he chose the wrong side he spent his time thinking of his men but even after he realizes his place he still acts like a selfish child taking on Demonder
Compulsion?
I'll bet every golden mark in Tar Valon that if Demandred hadn't been sealed at the Bore but instead killed in the war, the Wheel would have used his soul to spin the thread of Gawyn on the 3rd Age.
I disagree that Gawyn caused Egwene's death. She was very strong willed and could have chosen to live. But I understand that the story called for her to have a heroic sacrifice
Gawyn is consistent in my view- he is a complete moral relativist. He focuses only on the choices available to him at the present time, in each scene, and consistently sacrifices the future for the path of least resistance. He is a contrast to Galad, a pure moral absolutist, until he grows toward the end of the series.
Although his character was frustrating, I liked how he was written. I feel like he was meant to be that person who had good intentions and was a nice person but was easy to be misled and deceived. I appreciated how he was loyal to those he cared about.
He stays at the tower out of loyalty to the other youbglings
She died defeating the new chosen tiam
Maybe some characters arent meant to have a strong arc. Perhaps Gawyn is just a man that finds himself in over his head and is indecisive. I dont like his character but theres a lot of real people that arent my favorite. Those people should be in stories as well to make it more realistic.
Spot on.
I agree with a lot that is being said here. My own take is that Gawyn is simply indecisive when it comes to choosing sides... He seems to make a choice base on the moment and not the big picture. At the moment when Suann (sp) was deposed armed only with a lack of information, he chose to side with the tower. He then abandons the tower when he overhears that Egweene (sp) is being mistreated... again... a complete lack of information. He is just as set in his ways as his brother and sister once his mind is made up but he acts on impulse and emotion instead of using his head.
Gawyn sucks as a title. Well have my like sir.
Gawyn and Galad should be merged into one character that mostly follows Galad's arc
This was my motivation to give my like at the very beginning as well
Gawyn was far more like able when we first meet him. The Tower coup was when he changed drastically. It seemed somewhat consistent with a young man who, with plausible reasons, found himself on a questionable side in a conflict. Siuan had lost Elayne twice by that time and severely tested his ability to follow orders or trust her authority. Not to mention that Morgase was pretty heated about the whole situation! I found it somewhat jarring that he actually managed to kill two Warder blade masters. Perhaps that is where it becomes the most difficult to suspend disbelief.
I like NaeBlis's idea of having him leave the Tower with the ladies. It would get he and Egwene together sooner and he would see her competence earlier. I am sure that he would have questioned and challenged her too much for her liking because any question or challenge is not to her liking.
Using your change of Gawyn's character arc, I would make some other changes. First, I would have Gawyn save Egwene's life twice. First would be during the Seanchan raid. Rather than finding her after the raid is over and taking her away, his finds her during the battle, saves her life by almost sacrificing himself and she bonds him to save her. Then, he saves her in ToM from the Bloodknives, but she is unable to save him and he dies. Thinking about his sacrifice helps her get the mental strength to overcome Egwene's capture in World of Dreams by Mesaana.
I think much of his inconsistencies and lack of growth were intentional, due to his guilt and conflicting emotions. He reveres Galad, and wants to be able to always do what's "right," regardless of who it hurts. Unfortunately for him, he is neither as resolute or emotionless as Galad. He sides with elaida, BC he believes at the time that it's the right thing to do. He doesn't want to kill hammar or any other warders, but that is nearly inevitable due to circumstances. Later, once his blood has cooled, he starts to understand that he did choose wrong, but refuses to fully admit it to himself, and to cover that stays at the white tower. Deep down he does know tho, which is why he helps min, siuan, and leane to escape. I think he's also quite jealous of rand, both BC of egwene, and BC he believes he should be like rand, leading armies against the dark one. Once again, to cover up his own emotions to himself, gawyn turns that to hate and belief of a rumor that many tell him are untrue. At the end, while it is somewhat selfish, his drive to face demandred was truly a way he thought to redeem himself, and save everyone, while also being the hero. He knew the rings would kill him, but egwene had shown time and again that she was strong, and could overcome her emotions. Gawyn likely believed that meant, right or wrong, that she could overcome the loss of the warder bond, and himself. It shows some small level of growth, in that he was coming to trust in her strength, but also stagnation of his character, in that he still thought he could be the hero and save everyone. I believe this was intentional though. In the beginning, Gawyn was more likeable than Galad, and most everyone preferred him before the civil conflict in the tower. By the end, we've seen Galad grow as a character, whereas Gawyn stayed mostly the same. It's telling that he died against demandred, yet Galad didn't, even with the power the rings gave him. I think his character had much more depth and reasoning than ppl give him credit for, but i don't think jordan really intended him to be well liked.
F-Elaida
M-Faile
K-Gawyn
I didn’t find him siding with elaida out of character. At that point I’m pretty sure Galad had already joined the whitecloaks. I’m pretty sure Gawyn was doing what he thought Galad would have done.
That’s how he is. He’s a follower. He’s one of the only viewpoint characters that isn’t a leader. Without someone to point his sword for him he quickly makes the worst possible choices because he lacks the clarity of perspective of leadership.
Not that all leaders are right either.
He had known Elaida His whole Life
Siuan had sent out His sister om dangerous missions etc etc
Yeah Bee exactly
Tam Al'thor, nice
I'm not sure if he was under compulsion, like so many people have theorized, but he was definitely manipulated by Elaida. Suine "lost" Elaine multiple times, and Elaida has told him that she has her (in AS double speak, of course), and has told him on multiple occasions "you can see her in a little bit, but first do this for me," and because he trusts her, he follows along.
Gawyn sucks! Yup! Hes not a great guy really nor is he a very notable character. The inconsistencies in his actions are pretty consistant (ha! That was a mouthful!) and he wasn't handled the best...but....he helps Egwenes character grow in ways she would never have gotten the chance to. Is he great standalone? Nope. Buts he's integral to Egwenes arc, and lets be honest to the final battle as well, if he didn't die... i would bet dollars to donuts that Egwene would not have healed the scars from balefire in the way she did (and fight the way she did) effectively killing herself, but helping the greater battle. Without Gawyn and his inconsistant bumbling stupid antics, I think the light may have lost.
WoT Up! I think you might have a point about the necessity of Gawyn’s death for Egwene to do what was needed in TLB, but to have it happen the way it does makes Gawyn’s death seem like a plot device and not a natural progression of his character from start to finish for me.
@@danalou_who7765 thank you! Yeah I would have loved a smooth character progression for him as well...he had so much potential. He turned into a means to an end I think when Mr. Sandersom started running short on print. Can't wait to see how its handled in the show!
He is so close to being just a character that we hate rather than a badly written character. I would not be against Rafe making changes to him to make that jump. I have not decided on a direction I would want him to go though... any ideas?
You are so right! I totally agree with you, and this idiocy and inconstistency of Gawyns drives me nuts.
If Gawyn goes with Min, Suian, ect. after the fall, it screws up the later Gareth story arc. Not to mention what it would change with Egwene.
personaly I see gawyn as a boy that never really became a man... always wanting to folow somebody and never doing what he WANTS or NEEDS to do
just my 2 cents
Could not agree with you more! I have known others just like him.
I like to think that part of the reason that Gawyn had a bad storyline is that Birgitte took his place as Elayne’s protector and he had nowhere to go. He followed Egwene when she didn’t want him to, party because his role as first prince of the sword was usurped by Birgitte.
He was a man without a place, and was terrible. 😂
I cheered when Demandred beat him 😂
His fight against the tower assassin was pretty bad ass. One of my favorite fights.
His whole youngling storyline made no sense to me either. In my first read, I was shocked that he sided with Elaida.
The writing of his hating Rand was bad. Egwene could have easily convinced him. She knew that Mat brought word of her “death” and Rand was shocked. She also knew that the reason to go was to kill a Fordaken. And she never says it to him. That chapter pissed me off.
I wonder what Galad did during Siuan’s deposing? Maybe he already joined the WCs? Hmm.
I threw up in my mouth a little when gawyn offered to plan the wedding. Offering this as evidence of his acceptance of a secondary role in relation to his amyrlin wife-to-be was just corny!
I actually like Gawyn, i don't like that he beleived the rumor, but other than that, i like him and his decisions. Even siding with eliada made sense, seeing suiann as the person endangering his family. Although letting her go would have been an odd decision and perhapse he should have never found them while they leave. But i definitely enjoyed a "good guy's" PoV on the "Wrong side"
You have more work to do to understand the character and come to respect his decisions. Gawyn is a fabulous character because he wants to get things done; at an almost superstar level of dedication.
I’ve thought this for a while now. They were a really bad relationship.
It would be really interesting to see gawyn really overhauled for the show, I feel like he would make a great dynamic if he somehow managed to accompany the Wonder Girls in the same way Thom and Juilin do. It would also lend for some great character interactions whenever Mat pops up to help the girls, after he humbling both Gawyn and Galad in the tower. I don't really remember them having any other interactions outside of that, and I think it could lead to some good character moments.
There's also all the possible moments he could have with Thom
That FMK is a koan.
I fully expect them to combine Galad and Gawyn into one character. The only question is if Galwyn ends up being a white cloak commander or marrying Egwene
I happen to think his story arc is important to show the failure in man. He had all the makings to be a great person, but failed time and again; it's a very human tale and probably will be one of the more interesting ones to show on TV. People like seeing good people fail sadly.
What I am more curious about is if they will keep the dream sequences Egwene has with him given that it's a) heavily invasive, b) kinda rapey for both people and c) (and possibly my biggest concern) it means Egwene goes into that relationship having already done things with him but he is entirely unaware and thus is actually steps behind her. Not to mention she hints at going into his dreams multiple times without him ever knowing. Like wtf girl.
I personally didn't dislike him. And to your point about why he would take place in tower politics, couldn't it be because he was conflicted and chose to follow Eladia because she was a familiar presence in his life? She was his mothers advisor after all.
What does FMK stand for?
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=FMK
Frick, marry, kill.
Siansonea Orande Oh! Thank you! Now I have to decide what my answer is to that question. Hmmm.
Traditionally the "step" brother or "step" sister in a fairy tale are always evil or bad. Galad is deliberately set up as the bad step brother initially when he reports Rand's intrusion, and Gawyn , as Galad's opposite, and early defender of Rand, is portrayed as the good guy. This happens very early in the series and sets up our expectations for the rest of the books. (First impressions stick with you!)
So later, when Gawyn begins making poor decisions the reader is always waiting for the Gawyn's redemption. We hate Gawyn because that redemption never comes. So we don't only hate his actions, we feel betrayed by Gawyn, and that betrayal exists on multiple levels. We feel betrayal in empathy for our heroes in Randland, and we feel betrayal on behalf of our selves because our expectations for gawyn are not met.
If Jordan did this deliberately than I would say that Gawyn is fantastically written.
Jordan's twist is that Gawyn's and Galad's roles are reversed. Galad, the so good he's evil white cloak, becomes a hero, while Gawyn, the friendly and loyal first prince of the sword becomes a villain; or at least a dark character.
Personally I think that maybe Gawyn was a character who was meant to be redeemed in Memory of Light, but was not because of Jordan's passing and Brandon Sanderson having a different vision for the character. Or maybe we were meant to end up hating Gawyn all along. Who knows ?
I think Gawyn should have either :
- Fled the White Tower during Elaida's insurrection, and returned to Andor to resume his duties as future First Prince of the Sword. Or as a male escort/happy ending masseur. He could have been useful as either.
Or
- Gawyn should have died at Dumai's Wells.
I haven’t even watched the video. But, yes, so much. 😂😂😭
F and M Faile, K Elaida and Gawain
Although, I will point out that other people in the series have acted Gawyny, and they are usually under the influence of subtle compulsion by a Forsaken.
Fact check true
Jordan may have done different but all his characters had personality
The number of misspelled names in the comments is pure comedy gold.
F: Faile K: Elaida M: Gawyn( you know, just so I can be Royals, feel me? LOL)