"Thrusting is Stronger Than Swinging!!" ...THINK AGAIN!!
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- Опубліковано 28 кві 2023
- Many people in the comments tell us that the opponent in a real-life situation would never swing up and down the katana, but would rather stab which is much faster. But are you really sure about that?
So today, Seki sensei, the 22nd headmaster of Asayama Ichiden Ryuha with 400 years of history, will explain how you defend and counterattack against an opponent’s stab attack. By watching this video, you will understand a stab is not an easy solution to solve the problem of doing a straight swing attack. The last Kata Seki sensei introduced was one of the coolest ones I’ve ever seen, so please watch till the end to find out.
*The content of our videos is based on the teachings of Asayama Ichiden Ryu and personal studies/experience | There is no intention of denying other Ryuha styles, theories, and cultural aspects
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Thank you for the video.
I don't think I could follow the Katas in this video.
But since I'm currently in bed with a cold, I don't do any Kata right now anyway.
But it's allways good to see Seki-sensei's demonstration.
To quote another person: The joy on Sensei's face while he is teaching is beautiful to watch.
As said by Rodolfo Cappoferro in his treaty, “a thrust, even though it is devious and deadly, can be moved with the force of a child.”
I know that this is essentialy a necro response but... it really depends on what sort of weapon the thrust is executed with and the speed/momentum of the attack. Displacing a thrust form an arming sword, a katana, a longsword or a sabre is very different from displacing a thrust executed by a greatsword ( or Zwei/Montante ), a polearm or a quarterstaff. Polearms and quarterstaffs in particular can be nasty, since they have quite a bit of heft to them. Try moving an inch thick oaken staff aside... that takes effort if the sparring partner actually intends to hit you. Polearms are even worse as they are just... heavier. You would need to catch the thrusts quickly, to fully steer them away from yourself.
@@zwidowca1
Have you practiced this before?
Because my intuition is that the greater mass of those weapons wouldn't make a huge difference because the biggest thing that makes thrusts easy to move is that to avoid the damaging part of the weapon you only need to move it a very small amount and you aren't needing to work against the direction of inertia at all.
In other words, you only need to move the weapon maybe a couple of inches at point of contact, and the force/inertia is moving toward you while the parry motion is moving to the side not against the path of travel of the weapon. This means the force you're using to divert the path of the weapon is the same as if the weapon wasn't moving at all. Maybe less because the opponent can't quickly counteract the sideways direction of force you're introducing when they are thrusting forward.
@@zwidowca1diverting a polearm thrust requires less force actually, since you have greater leverage. A a well held knife thrust will be the hardest to divert actually. A polearm's strength in thrusts comes not from how hard it is to divert- but in the inability to punish a missed thrust with a shorter weapon, allowing you to recover and thrust and faint again and again.
@mishael1339 eh... no? it all depends on what exactly happens in that situation. If the thrust is coming in at an angle then it already can be a tad harder to deal with? The enemy can choke up on the weapon shaft and shorten the leverage?
What is your claim based on? I actually test this stuff, sadly nobody I know owns a halbeard or sth like that for hist. fencing yet so I cannot be sure about "advanced polearms". I did test it with spears and quarterstaffs however.
"the inability to punish a missed thrust with a shorter weapon"
This statement flawed. Depending on the situation and context you could grab/secure the shaft of the weapon after a displaced/missed thrust, thus nullyfying the range difference. Grappling, distance control and securing the enemy weapons are very much a thing?
Also, what is a knife doing in this conversation? I would NEVER want to use a knife if we are thinking about a duel situation and one side only has a knife and the other has a different historically acurate weapon ( a saber for example ). The only worse option is bare bloody hands.
The knife user is mostly f*cked from the get go. Lack of range and options against a heavier, longer weapon. Why displace a knife thrust when you can just... not let the thrust happen at all? Hit the enemy while they are out of measure? Control the enemy aggression with your superior range? Prevention is better than a cure?
The whole thing with polearms is that you cannot easily control them and the enemy if they are at their optimal measure or attacking distance. The instant you have a knife and somebody else has a longer weapon same applies to them. You cannot approch them safely to threaten with that thrust bruv.
You also have to assume that you are fighting a competent combatant, not an idiot who will just let you do what you want.
Depends on the type of thrust as well. A strong, twohanded thrust from a yari (where the distance between both gripping hands remains constant, and both hands maintain a strong grip), whilst slower and with shorter range, have a lot of leverage and strength behind it.
Sliding thrusts (where the distance between the hands shortens, and the spear-shaft slides through the grip of the front hand) and one handed thrusts have much less leverage, so are easier to deflect, but have greater speed and range, making it more difficult to react to.
The joy on Sensei's face while He is teaching is beautiful to watch.
Ikr? He seems to be passionate about the art
There were many similaries with fencing from this video since two of the three classical weapons in fencing (the foil, epee, and saber) are thrust only. I will be using fencing terms and using square brackets to designate the fencing term.
1:56 is an example of an [attack on the blade] against a [thrust attack] via [parry through expulsion (which is very rare to see in fencing)] followed by a [thrust riposte].
2:44 is an example of a [beat parry] against a [beat thrust attack], followed by a [cut riposte]. Anyone that think a [beat], which is another [attack on blade], in a [beat attack] is undefeatable have never faced against a [beat parry] with a [cut riposte]. It is so simple to learn that we do not invest much time to studying this unless you request a private or plastron lessons to get gud with [beat parry riposte] against a [beat attack]. The tac-tac sound is very memorable.
3:15 is an example of a [compound attack], which is different than a [simple attack] that we've seen so far. Often than not, a [compound attack] is multiple attacks, and the likely intention for a [compound attack] is deception. The deception can be manifested as a [feint], which is a simulated [offensive action] to elicit a [parry] so that in the time of their [parry] the one deceiving can make another [attack] to land the hit. Interesting enough, the first [attack] is not a [feint] but a deceptive action since by definition a [feint] elicits a [parry] but not a [parry riposte], and the intention for the deceptive action is to elicit the [parry riposte with a thrust] (and to add on that, an [angled step], a type of [footwork] to go off of the [line of direction]) so that one can do a [circular beat parry] and not a [lateral parry], which are different types of [parries] due to the trajectory of the blade when defending. TL;DR, [compound attack] to elicit a [parry riposte with a thrust] and [angled step] for the subsequent [circular beat parry riposte with a thrust]. I have to mention the [circular parry] in light of its importance in this kata.
4:13 is an example of using a [counteroffensive action with a thrust] with [evasive actions] against a [compound attack]. A [counteroffensive action] is an [attack] that simultaneously offend and defend compared to a [parry riposte] that defend then offend. [Counteroffensive actions] use one [tempo] compared to [parry riposte] that use two [tempo]. [Counteroffensive actions] are highly situational and high skilled since if someone messes up the [angulation] for the [counteroffensive actions] with [blade opposition], a double hit can ensue, which is very bad. Because a [compound attack] can take more than two [tempo] compared to a [counteroffensive action] which can take one [tempo], logically the [counteroffensive action] has better [economy of motion]. This is not a technique recommended for beginnners; get gud at defending first before you try this.
5:57 is an interesting case since the [parry] forces the opponent to do a [cut] since any [disengagements] around that [parry] will be too big. This is also a case of a [delayed riposte] since it is normative for the [riposte] to be immediate right after the [parry], but like all things in combat, they have tactical reasons. TL;DR, against a [compound attack] that starts with a [thrust attack] and forced to do a [cut attack] due to the [parry]'s blade geometry, [delayed cut riposte].
It should be reminded that even if you know these kata, you must practice these kata else you will get defeated by the very same attack that your katawere made to defend against. Kata and drills teach you fundamentals so that you don't do stuff by rote; don't be a robot swordsman!
also, on god the analysis with fencing term
This was a really great and in-depth comment.
I think it's also worth pointing out something that the introduction of your comment pointed toward but didn't spell out. As you mentioned, there is a discipline of fencing called saber which uses slashing attacks, AND thrusts are not illegal in that discipline (you can still score with the tip of the weapon). Yet still most of what you'll see are slashing attacks rather than thrusts.
The idea that if given the option between slashing and thrusting, thrusting is always best, is a very flawed idea, and I'm really confused about where this idea has come from and how it has become so popular in modern thought.
Notice how Sensei use the other side to parry/block to avoid damage the blade, then quickly switch back the blade to cut the opponent.
Currently I'm practicing on this, and I can say it is not easy, maybe it'll took tons of practice to do it as fast and as accurate as Seki-sensei.
Yep lots of reps sir.
And with partner.
Look at the angles and don't over-deflect. Going slow to find the right angle and timing is the long part to learn.
It's a technique you find in many styles including rapier, except we don't need to protect from edge damage so we go straight into what's called Quarta and "wall" our left side as we thrust.
I like how kenjutsu adds that body twist to make it easier and gather energy before the tsuki !!!
Question for Seki Sensei , please.
Do we first use the money of the blade and then twist left before the tsuki?
Or we use the side of the blade first and then twist for the tsuki?
Thank you for your time.
As with shooting: slow is smooth, smooth is fast.
Once it becomes second nature, you'll gradually reach flashing steel speed
In sparring i've found that yes, thrusts are quick and often "deadly" when you can accurately do them. Yet if you miss (I often miss), you just give up the center of the blade and at least half of your body is exposed to a counterattack just as seki sensei displayed.
Also, when you thrust, you should try to do it with a guard to avoid the latter.
Edit: forgot to mention that your guard should be facing your opponents sword with the strong side of your blade, or the edge in the case of the katana.
Great video as always!
Have you tried to only commit the upper body to the thrust? You can use that as a feint to a switch of target (light tip thrust) or if he fumbles to parry just now step forward behind your thrust ( as you said with a guard position just in case...😂)
I haven't tried it in kenjutsu yet but it's a usual deceiving and entry attack with longswords or rapier. And the body mechanics and purpose of actions are the same in Seki Sensei form.
Same idea of barely putting the attack line off your body and thrusting while shielded behind a guard.
I think you can dui-tempi or contra agaisnt a thrust too. I always favor the " in your face as I deflect your sword" kind of tempo. But I'm full of polluting reflexes, sneaking HEMA in kenjustsu and getting scolded by my Sensei😂
@@narusawa74 absolutely yes, we mainly try to thrust in the upper body since is where your point is most of the time when you fully extend your arms (We call this langen-Ort in German longsword).
I am just learning to apply this techniques as a matter of fact.
I have only had a very small exposure to good spear work, but overcommitted thrusts are no more part of the proper use of that weapon than overcommitted cuts and thrusts are to swordsmanship
I would assume that this applies to all kinds of sword play. You only can do a thrust if it's guarding yourself as well and the best ones usually are when you step out of line and adjust the blade alignment for maximum safety. If you do this they are mighty hard to deal with, especially with fast swords.
@@Sir.Alonne I am told it depends a lot on weapon and scoring systems, the judges, etc.
Fascinating techniques. I study and practice Italian rapier. Thrust-centric fencing is indeed complex and difficult to master, even with a specialised thrusting weapon. Very interesting to see similar ideas applied to other types of swords. Is the Kasumi(?) stance a good guard from which to thrust against a potential downward cut?
Eishin Ryu has a technique against thrusts. It's called 'Suigetsuto'.
could you give me the link to that video please? I couldn't find it 😢
What Suigivesuto, Suigetsuto
There are so many philosophical masters of any martial art, but practical masters like Seki Sensei are rare gems. The complexity comes from the simplicity of the moves. I truly wish I spoke Japanese so I could learn directly from him. Love this video.
I have a problem dealing with my classmates' stabbing attacks with their bokken. Thanks for the explanation and lesson.
Thanks for the videos! As a Toyama ryu practitioner that frequently spars, seeing these techniques are very eye opening for the times I do gekken.
Brilliant 👍 Thank you Master Seki, Shogo and all for all you do. Hope you all have a happy golden week and next Saturday goes well . Wish we could be with you. Sorry will not see you Friday we are working 😢 But look forward to archived lesson and following week. Take care. Stay safe
John and Kate
Hi Shogo, This was the exact situation I have wanted to know about. Thanks very much for asking Seki Sensei to teach this kata to us! I must get a partner to safely practice this move with me.
I really appreciate this lesson very much. As things happen in society; the more we will need this knowledge to protect family and friends in situations like this.
Thank you again!
The principles seem the same or very similar to European swordsmanship but are applied in a very different, distinct manner. Very interesting and the presentation is flawless.
Thank you so much for these videos! This is so interesting!
Those were some energetic moves. Very insightful.
Thank you for the continued videos. I hope the online course does well. Cheers
Seeing this done so elegantly makes me really appreciate the time it must have taken to get to that level of proficiency. I can barely push a broom with any accuracy, let alone handle a razor mid-flight with any skill.
Love the videos with Seki sensei! I my friends and I practice frequently and these videos are easy to absorb and offer answers to some great questions. Thanks Guys!
Ahhh those first two techniques tickled my olympic fencing brain so much! Nice to see similar techniques being used with another weapon. That deep parry with the cut was really cool too! I like seeing how a katana would implement cuts afterwards where I would angle in a controlled riposte with my epee! Love that you are translating the content! I have watched a bunch of the non-translated videos trying to gather what I could from them!
Love this, also love how you always reexplain his explanation in English for further clarity while showing lots of angles.
Thank you again. The lesson is very educational and edifying. 🙇🏾♂️
Great video. Sensei's Tai sabaki combined with the use of the sword structure to redirect the opponents attack is truly beautiful to watch.
Very well done with subtle movements, bravo. Especially how Seki Sensei controls the space between the Uke and himself
Oh my god!! How I didn't know about this channel!! Shogo many tanks for bring us Seki Sensei. There's not many quality content here in youtube about kobudo. Seki Sensei thanks for be generous with your knowledge and share it with us. I wish you good fortune. Many thanks from Chile 🇨🇱
as always, thank you for your efforts and thank you for the lessons
thank you seki Sensei and shogo.
That is absolutely beautiful video, what an awesome display of skill
Good stuff 🔥
Greta stuff.nice to see the use of the curvature to good effect. sense is movement is outstanding
Very good lesson. Thank you.
Last demo is straight up anime :) Thank you so much!
In longsword fencing we have a lot of techniques that make thrusting both safe for the attacker and difficult to parry for the opponent, but our swords are different to the katana, we have quillons, straight and usually longer blades. It's interesting to see how the shape of the sword shapes the style.
Thats fantastic tricks to learn.
Thank for u and the master.
Great post. I think the matter of surprise is the ultimate defense and offense in any situation. These katas are just ways to respond.
Thank you 🙏🏼 Sensei !!
Seki sensei has such fluid movements
Watching Seki Sensei's technique, I wonder why he is not consulted in Japanese movies involving the sword. His movements are so honest and effective, but they have an elegance that really show well on screen. Imagine the fight choreography he could create. Amazing.
People like seagulls do the movies.
Fantastic video guys I never imagined using the structure of the katana to parry like that 😮 wow!
Fantastic video; especially the techniques that use the curvature of the blade.
I will definitely try to put those in practice.
Great training thanks
Good video. Haven't seen most of these counters!
Hey congrats on 100K subs! You guys easily reached your goal before the deadline!
Considering the question about sheathing the katana, I saw your video posted on the mini katana channel. I don't know if that was a coincidence or an immediate response, but either way, I highly appreciate your effort to make these videos. It helped me a lot. 😢😢😢😢😢😢
the beauty of the sword movement is amazing
The katas here are the most amazing ones I've ever seen from any ryuha! I'm floored and will spend lots of time to study it. Thanks for posting this. Seki Sensei's proficiency with the katana is unparalleled. I hope you can post kata on how battoujutsu works for the tachi if there are any such techniques in kobudo or kobujutsu.
Love the body mechanics, couled with using the design of the katana itself. Very cool to watch!
It's depend on personal skill, situation and luck. If you're too slow, your opponent can read / parry / intercept / evade your thrust attack. If you're quick enough, you win. Based on my experiences in Karate and Kickboxing, there is no any perfect martial art techniques exist, all techniques have their own strength and weakness.
Would love to see Seki Sensei defend/counter against strikes coming from the side as well. Most of the time the strikes come straight down so a simple step is enough to dodge, but what can you counter with when you can't move side to side? Love the videos keep it up!
Excellent thank you!
We love Seki Sensei!
Using the whole body behind the blade is most effective. The Master is correct and joy in his heart as he teaches. Unsurpassed. A simple tsuki with katana can penetrate armor. Look for the “openings “. Beautiful.
I enjoy the videos! Does Seki Sensei train Jiyu Kata? Not-prearranged kata? I have heard this is a very old method of training that is not practiced much these days. Keep up the good work!
Advanced Kenjutsu, long time no see.❤
Awesome!!
@4:53 this is a key point of information for me here... thank you for explaining this "roll of the blade"! 🙏🧎♂️🙇♂️
Thank you!
I absolutely love learning about all this kind of stuff. I took capoeira for a while years ago and my favorite part was our sensei would give us a little bit of History before each class.
Man...That was cool!
This is amazing
I bet you have to train a lot to execute those moves! Great video
Simply beautiiful.
Reach is important which is why, at the grossest level, a tachi has an advantage against a tanto until you are at very very close range and why the spear, not the sword, ruled the battlefield including in Japan. But as you say that isn't the entire story. The saber, for example, was still very popular on the battlefield up until WWI for many of the same reasons you point out
These turns of the katana after parrying are amazing.
Thank you Shogo and Seki Sensei for your amazing videos and the camera person as well. Let's give props to Seki Sensei's partner, his form is really good. I would think if they were a novice the attacker would do many horizontal strikes, if trained I suppose they would do a down cut. What about diagonal strikes, from the low position and from high to low like X cuts, when could we do them, should we ever do them?
Oh I see you have a video on diagonal cuts, I'll go watch it now.
I'd like to see these used in a film. Fascinating!
Looks cool.
Seeing the connection between rhe footowork and the structure of tbe sword is fascinating. I mever saw that. befoee. Thank you.
As George Silver said in the 1500's, there is no "perfect fight" without use of both edge and point.
One more important point is that, yes, people will generally swing rather than thrust in high-stress situations with lots of adrenaline coursing through their veins. I think there's a point about it in the book "Swordsmen of the British Empire" or similar, there's a video on it on Scholagladiatoria's channel.
Namely, the British officers noted how hard it was to train people to thrust on the battlefield, as even experienced swordsmen who were taught to favor the trust for years would often end up swinging wildly as their fine motor function degraded and instinct took over.
You see this even with boxing, where tired and hurt opponents will start to throw wider and sloppier power punches instead of straight ones when the stress is high, or they get frustrated with an elusive opponent.
@3:29 I noticed the stance shift also removes a lot of your body profile from the adversaries optimal strike zone. Good offense and defense at the same time.
Shogo,
Could you and Seki Sensei do a video on the history, differences and benefits for different zukuri? For instance, the most common zukuri design would be the shinogi style, but I prefer the shobu style due to its better penetration potential (at the expense of being more fragile).
The way I understand it, the shinogi was replaced with the shobu specifically to address the Mongol threat and be better for penetrating their armor.
Seki Sensei is a magician... makes it look so easy
Superb.
Wow the moves are so subtle. Seki Sensai really is a chess master with swords.
To quote Frank Herbert “Killing with the point lacks artistry, but don’t let that hold your hand when the opening presents itself.”
Amazing
Love this channel and your other one. Am interested in hearing if Sensei or you have any thoughts or connections with people who have handicaps and practice Iaido, Jodo, or Tanjo. My left foot doesn’t work because of a firefighting accident. Am shodan in MSR here in Los Angeles. Would like to learn more for myself, but also to share with other people around the world who practice or want to practice Iaido. Thank you.
I like his kobudo.. i did notice most of what he shows is drawing his opponents in while he places himself on a superior position. What if we need to be the aggressor due to time and positional constraints.
When you're not young anymore you will start to appreciate the raw mechanics. By then you should realize winning the fight is more critical than looking cool.
that last move was cinematic :DD
Thank you for your generous teachings. Could you please show handling and kata with Jo? Im curious how that would differ from jo within aikido.
Very good demonstration, love the elegance of the movements. I'd like to see it against western style one-handed thrusting weapons. The reach is much different, the body of the attacker is farther from his target.
Good .
I really like that last one. For HEMA the only real difference is targeting the wrists as they come down instead of the body.
Rapier entered the chat to remember 1582 Cagayan battles
What a coincidence. I just thinking about the thrust tactic and how it would be countered using Kenjutsu. This video showed up right on time.
The rolling and flipping connection between jo nihonto naginata etc stops people from chopping wood and really feeling what they are doing, which stops fear. That's what higher training is doing.
Could you and sensei go over fighting techniques that are effective in battle but also will minimize the damage dealt to the katana. Thanks so much!!
Wow, that is one scary old man. I wish to never cross blades with him.
the key here is knowing what your opponent gonna do !!!
That was sweet to watch Osu !!!🙏
Learning how to counter-attack from stabbing is the most useful thing in real-life situation. Most criminal cases involving knives usually happens by stabbing.
I love the similarities between longsword and katana
Another thing my own teacher would say about thrusting is that it narrows the danger area of the attack to a tiny point, but doesn't really reduce the profile of your weapon for parrying or require drastically changing the basic movement of the parry. You can parry a thrust with very similar movement to a swing. Thrusts are faster and have better reach, but they're smaller in all the bad ways and none of the good ways.
Thanks for the amazing video. I do not train weapons anymore, but these demonstrations give an historical context to a lot of unarmed combat we do today. I do boxing and the concepts are surprisingly similar.
Question: shomen-uchi is the basic downward thrust, first strike taught in kendo (I believe), but it seems to me its very dangerous, since it has many counters. But in order to use these counters, you have to bait the opponent to attack. In boxing we use jab and feints (aming others) to bait the opponent to play our game, but with swords any mistake could be fatal. How do you feint/or bait the opponent to attack you? In this video there is one way, lowering the katana, but surely an experienced opponent will see through that? How much were these ancient sword fights actually extremely stressful mind-games?
The problem is kendo is not kenjutsu or kobudo, the former being sport oriented while the latters being more combat oriented. That's why they can teach a technique that would be dangerous in a real fight as most kendo practitioners do not intend to use their techniques in real combat.
The same can be observed in the differences between sport jui jitsu and traditional BJJ, as taught by Helio Gracie and his sons.
@@doloinc as far as I know it’s the basic strike in every Japanese sword art
In fencing, your blade must be in motion so that you give your opponent to attack since your stationary blade can ward off any attacks. To have purposeful movement AND assuming you and your opponent's point are in line (meaning that if both of you were to walk toward each other, you mutually stick each other), you engage the opponent's blade such that (1) your point is in line, (2) your opponent's blade is not in line, forcing (3) your opponent to correct this. When the opponent engage back your blade so that (1) your opponent's blade is in line, (2) your point is not in line, forcing (3) you to correct this, you must engage back so that he doesn't just run you through and you struggle with the blade geometry thrusted upon you. In that few moment of you engaging back, you give your opponent time to attack, thus you have set them up.
Thank you for very educating video.
I have one more idea and question. On last kata attacker did thrust but made quite long move to return and do swing. However, seems to me naively, he could turn cutting edge to defence party and do cut on back movement instead. Maybe, not to do winning strike, since there was blocking katana, but to create pressure on defence party and for occasional cut.
Is this possible situation? What would you do to defend against it?
I think stabs are favoured just because they are much harder to defend, you need precise timing to parry a stab while to defend from a swing you simply put something in the way and it's done (unless it's a swing from a heavy 2-handed weapon then you will never block it unless you have a shield).
Good evening, thank you very much for the informative video!
In the kata defending against a counter thrust from a diagonal: I can see the sword side switch being almost as fast as the thrust; but, wouldn't the stance change not only be too slow but also would put you square to the stab if you are indeed too slow? It seems risky. I used to train Tang Soo Do so I know stances can be switched very quickly but the stab would still be much faster wouldn't it?
For the final kata in the video: couldn't the aggressor simply step to the left and continue his slash into your thigh forcing you to block or parry before countering, thus giving the enemy time to step back or circle around more? Or, oppositely, couldn't the enemy have stepped to the right and back slightly while rotating his blade so the edge is perpendicular to the flat of your sword and apply some pressure before stepping back or circling more to the right to look for another opening? Is this because circling left or right is too slow?
I'm just wondering how that would work in a more real life situation. Either way, I was very impressed with the technique of rotating the sword angle to use it to quickly deflect. I knew that was a thing but since I don't practice with or use swords I did not realize it could be that effective. I am no sword expert at all, these are just questions and comments in my mind I wished to ask about. No disrespect to the sensei is meant. Thanks again for the video!
Well.. Thrusting can be mikiri coutered
If I'm facing someone like Sensei, I'm never stabbing out of fear that he might Mikiri Counter me like in Sekiro.