Jourdan & Nills on Wing Chun
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- Jourdan Chow (who often plays the role of the crazed knife wielding attacker in our self defense videos) and Nills Van Doorn (perhaps better known as “Captain Krav Maga”) do an interview about wing chun. Outside of MMA training at the JX Fight Club, Jourdan and Nills have practiced multiple martial arts over the years, including wing chun, kali, German Jujitsu, aikido, BJJ, and catch wrestling among others.
How much can wing chun be integrated into the sport of MMA? How much does context matter when using a traditional martial art?
Ramsey, next time I come back to China, let's get everyone together and make a video together!! I'll bring Coach Paris and you bring Jourdan and Nills. We'll make some awesome content together!
That would be awesome!
@Paul Perreira I third this notion
Fight Commentary Breakdowns brilliant idea
I second that.
you like doing everything together...
“Absorb what is useful, discard what is useless and add what is specifically your own”
Last thing said in the video:
"martial arts takes years and years of practice"
UA-cam ad one second later:
"want to learn to be a brutally effective fighter in just a few days?"
Jourdan without a knife? Unsuscribe
Seriously now, those two fowks seem super nice when they are out of character
Nils is a nice guy too. Thus, neither of both needs a knife. 😛
He had the knife in the beginning of the video. So it should still fly.
That shit got old u best leave fr
Tony Ferguson is the type of guy that does wing chun in MMA.
I've started practicing Wing Chun in 2005. I was already a 2 degree black belt on Sipalki Do and a Modern Wu Shu instructor. In that time I left all that to dedicate my full time and efforts to learn Wing Chun. By 2009 I was one of the youngest Wing Chun Instructors in Argentina. I've study the different Wing Chun lines available in my country and now, after all those years I'm one of the Wing Chun referents. But I get a lot of "hate" from the Traditional Kung Fu Community for my claims about the lack of full contact sparring and cross training in the schools.
I'm the only one who's always looking to sparr with real fighters (box, kickboxers, muay thai, and bjj) but always with respect and having in mind the reality, I'M NOT A FIGHTER. I'm just a regular guy who wants to learn how to defend myself in the best way possible. And all those real fighters have an all whole different psyche on what fighting and violence is. I've always prefer to get hitted by one of those guys and not some random crazy dude on the streets.
Sorry for the long comment. I think you get my point. Anyway, I strongly agree with this video. Great job as always and best regards from Argentina! :D
Don't pay attention to this Fire Dragon guy. He's full of shit. Remember Ramseys sparring sessions with Jowad? He actually talked down to them about it and implied his bullshit Kung Fu is better and that he wasn't impressed. To 2 professional martial-artists, one of them being a Championship-level Muay Thai fighter. Sparring in Muay Thai.
His name is Fire Dragon...how can one even take someone like that seriously?
@The Fire Dragon I've heard of mma guys who went to China and couldnt take down taiji men in their stance, similar to given claims abt Ipman and Duncan Leung, where they can stand high but it's hard to topple them. Who knows.
The greatest martial artist of the 20th century said traditional martial arts did not work in a real fight.Even though a lot of a---- holes does not give him credit were it not for Bruce Lee wing chun would be just another obscure kung fu style.And i dare anyone to differ.If you research every full contac tournament from muay thai,Mas Oyama Kyokushin karate,And lately MMA wing chun fighters have always been the first ones eliminated and their opponents not even breaking a sweat.Thats speaks volume for the style.Its funny that all these wing chun masters have records of 200 fights people like Emin,williams chun etc etc but there is not one video of any of these wing chun people fighting not one and that goes for wong chun leong who they consider their champion..Whe the Ufc started in 1992 a lot of these wing chun masters were sopposed to fight the gracies not one of them to this day ever show up.But they will continue to tell you their bil gee techniques are too deadly for the ring,tell that to Jon Jones or any current Ufc fighters and lets put it too the test.O by the way what title have they given themselves now supreme grand master,i gues the only other title thats left is God almighty,i cant wait for that one.
@The Fire Dragon,
I heard stories about Bigfoot and Slender man too.
Most of these Chunners are very delusional. Lol!
@True WingChun Holy shit. You hit ALL the clichees at once:
-Nobody knows real WC. It's too hard. ✔
-It's too powerfull and deadly for competition but won't work with gloves✔
-It's an effective martial art, even though there is 0 evidence of it working. Trust me, I knocked out 4 people with it. No proof of course✔
-Chi is not a mysthical bullshit power, it's actually something totally different and real, despite 99,9% of teachers in asia describe the word the same in different language✔
Yeah no. You never had a fight, probably have >40% body-fat and would get clapped by a 6 months boxing student.
Exactly. All martial arts need to be "contextualized." Personal protection, the ring, security...all require that you emphasize different things and that you tailor your training accordingly.
I have done Wing chun for about 10 years the problem with a lot of wing chun clubs is they just concentrate on form and chi sou instead of sparing is important as the only way to block a left hook is to have some one through a left hook at you .
It's a good point. I studied WC for 2 years and felt no better to deal with a situation than when I first started. If a guy simply trained during that time in boxing, he would have been able to deal with me no problem as the reality was we weren't trained to fight, simply to go through the motions, which is why I left the group. That's not WC's fault, just the method of teaching which I think happens a lot with it.
I did Wing Chun for 3, I think the biggest problem is people compare it to mma style training. In reality it’s just teaching you the art and concepts. It’d take forever to learn the entire system if one sparred every class. It’s up to the practitioner to take their training to the next level. People also think that the way they learn it is the way they will use it,when in actuality each move is dependent upon the circumstance and what it calls for.
RB26 GTR
You are the Type of guy who would call Spartans, Celts and Samurais *pu**ys* and amateurs in fighting just for the *only reason* they attack the groin or the eyes in warfare.
RB26 GTR
Absolutely fella
@@rb26gtr98 that's not wing chun. Wing chun is usefull in a lot of fighting situations. The thing is that you have to be trainen. Now I can tell you aren't trained, you're just an angry dude who thinks he has knowledge about wing chun. I'm trained in wing chun, I started when I was 7 years old up till i was 14 years old then took a 4 year break and now i'm back at it again while I also train in boxing now.
Those were honest, well thought out answers and explanations. I enjoyed this video.
What Ving Tsun teaches that works well and helps MMA fighters...
1- Understanding center line and gates of fighting.(watching the zones and not individual objects like fists.)
2- Proper footwork for boxing style movement. (Moving in a 3 gate stance is literally the same as boxing)
3- Keeping elbows in and tight and weight behind punches at all times. Hand trapping that is just like BJJ.
4- body conditioning/toughening
@@BlackMartialArtsSociety Wing Chun for all intents and purposes is boxing, it just isn't pugilism.
VT - hence understanding of the conditioning/toughening aspect. Many of the WC guys simply don't do this element of the training.
@@biohazard724 very true, that's how I explain it to people. A Chinese form of boxing with some low kicks involved. Very simplistic explanation but close enough for a rough understanding.
FocusBall Boxing&MMA Ving Tsun is literally boxing before it perfected itself Nd got rid of all the BS. Look at the old school English/Scottish boxers. Looks like Ving Tsun don’t it.
@True WingChun this actually shows how little you know about fencing! Nothing done in fencing is like wing chun. Please explain to me how they are similar in your view.
One man's knife wielding maniac is another man's fellow faithful servant of Khorne.
Blood for the Blood God.
Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it does.
Skulls for the Skull Throne.
Khorne bezerkers are probably the coolest (and scariest) characters from any franchise period.
BURN HERETICS! FOR RUSS! AND THE ALL-FATHER!
Khorne for the Khorne flakes my dude
Love the video. They didn't say Wing Chun is cure all. But that it helps.
Wing Chun's sticky hand is useful in grappling. I have used in BJI and wrestling.
It is NOT the perfect art. But for close quarter and short distance combat. It is effective. The problem w a lot of wing Chun practitioners is that they use wing chun for distance figuring. They don't use the footwork to get close or evade. .
Great video of a POV, Ramsey.
Hit the nail on the head there 👍
I'm in the exact same situation as Jourdan, spent a few years learning wing chun, didn't have a teacher anymore, went and learnt other styles, put them to the test in sparring with other people. At first you're like "damn, none of this stuff works against an actual opponent" but as you go you figure out in what circumstance to use your techniques and where once you thought the style was useless, it's become useful again. Completely agree with Nills about the close arm trapping, as long as I change up how I'm trapping them, absoloutely NO ONE I've used it on for the first, second AND third time has been able to defend at all but it quickly becomes a waste of energy trying to setup an opportunity to catch them off guard to trap them (though if I sparred some higher level fighters I'm sure they'd immediatley be able to do something). Definitely, definitely the close quarters Wing Chun dominates. One of the guys I spar with, he's a big dude like 3x my size, and I can't do anything to him if I'm too far away, but if I'm up close I can open him up and do as I please (with consent of course).
Like so many things in life, to use what works for us from any martial art is a plus, heck even a dancing class can help if you take the balance from it and ways to get the hell out of the way of a punch. To learn many to take the parts that are useful in a situation. MMA is such a mix of things, i hardly see straight karate stances , or pure judo it is pretty much a real fight with few rules making every second so important that all must be adapted to it
An ex pro fighter I knew that was teaching a bit gave me a book on fencing, like the sword kind of fencing, and told me to learn from the footwork of it that it was supposed to be super valuable to learn from.
I don't think most martial arts were created because someone sat down and thought "I'm going to create the ultimate fighting style." Like any human invention, a martial art is developed to satisfy a specific purpose. I don't know what the circumstances were that led to the creation of Wing Chun, but it looks like it was intended for sudden violent encounters in very tight quarters where there isn't much space to move. You trap a hand, and then move forward aggressively with a volley of punches until you stop the attacker or give yourself room to escape. You know what that isn't good for? Fighting someone in an open space who knows how to attack at various angles and shoot in on you.
This was very good! I like the principles of structure and disruption of structure that WC teaches as this applies to every martial art.
This is all WC is, in reality. The forms, rolling, footwork is all designed to train you to move with full range while keeping your structure and center of gravity while disrupting the opponent's. Of course, there is a lot more, conceptually, and WC done properly doesnt really look like rolling at all.
Exactly what Nills is saying. Each martial art will have a technique that will work perfectly in one situation. That's why you need to vary your training, so you have knowledge of these countless techniques and when and how to use them.
Wing Chun is a very specific grappling for a very specific range. It's quite useful while grip fighting for Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling. Just don't stay in wing Chun mode more than a transition
It's def worth learning, but as a supplement , not as a replacement
A wing Chun Sifu I met who got deep into the history of WC development explained to me that it was never meant for beginners, it was meant to be a concise tool kit for people who were already fighters, like graduate school per se. That statement changed my whole perspective on WC and what it’s actually for.
"Every martial art has its strengths and weaknesses... except for ours." - Master Ken.
Trained for almost 14 years in Aikido now with about a year of kickboxing experience and started half a year ago at a local jkd gym, where we spar almost every time we train, yet I never tried that irmi nage from the clinch. Thank you for showing it Nils, gotta try that out next time
There's a different technique, slightly different from classic iriminage, I don't remember the name from the top off my head, but it's done very much as if you are stretching your hand forward pass your opponents head to pick up something that is handed to you by a third person.
@@yuriysemenikhin302 never heard of such a technique, can you link a video ?
The toughest guy I ever sparred was a Wing Chun practitioner who also knew how to kick well, and it was a kick from him that was his best offense. Wing Chun has a sketchy history, and a lot of bs is out there about it IMO, but that doesn't discount any value that may be there.
With respect to both these guys, as they seem nice and intelligent, I have to disagree. People are always telling me why wing chun works, or how it works, or where it works, but they're never actually showing me wing chun working, and it's a silence that speaks volumes. When they do, it's usually some tiny fragment of the style, often one that can be found in other styles anyway.
You should be able to take away more than a few percent of your martial art into free sparring (and I'm not sure even a few percent is carried over to begin with). We can imagine circumstances like fighting in an elevator, in which it is argued here that it might be the right context for wing chun. But let's ask ourselves a really honest question. In a self-defense situation in an elevator, would you rather be an expert of wing chun or Muay Thai? Who do you think would perform better in the vast majority of tests in that scenario, the wing chun expert or the Muay Thai expert? And if Muay Thai can outperform wing chun both in its preferred context and in (apparently) every other context, why not just learn Muay Thai? MT is just an example, of course, you can insert your own well-proven style there as a substitute.
I'm not saying anyone should stop practicing wing chun--after all, there's a lot of reasons aside from fight competency to study martial arts. I'm just saying people need to know what they're going to get out of it so they can make an informed decision about whether it's right for them. I'd probably still be willing to learn wing chun as a fun hobby. I still enjoy aikido, after all.
first good comment so far (y)
Tbh just learn the art and spar somebody, that's what I do so ik what works and what doesn't
To play devils advocate here. Something like 80% of wrestling, jiu jitsu and boxing is useless in MMA. And you have to stop and think why is that? Wing chun suffers from the same as every martial art. By itself it’s hard to beat a well rounded fighter. With that said tho Wing chun just happens to struggle ALOT more than other styles. I feel like there is too much shit that actually doesn’t work in there to find the stuff that does. At that point you might as well learn something else even though there are legitimate things in there that do work. So what’s the solution? Don’t waste time learning Wing chun, just take the useful shit from it.
AA- Gamer I beg to different with wrestling and BJJ. Damien Maia and Ben Askren have both been able to make it very far with basically only wrestling and BJJ. Nobody has been able to do that with boxing, Muay Thai, or really anything else
@@DOOMLORDHOKAGE "Something like 80% of wrestling, jiu jitsu and boxing is useless in MMA."
I'd say something like 95% + is directly transferable to MMA from the styles mentioned. You might make a few adjustments though.
Fight science is a phenomenal channel for learning about wing chun properly. He's honest with no bs and has clearoy taken training more seriously than traditional schools
Sifu Mark Phillips is the man
I love your videos Ramsey. You got me to try out more stuff than for german Ju jutsu and got me into boxing, and you have helped me so much to become a better fighter, and also a better person.
Thank you for inspiring many of us, and taking the time to make those videos
Ich glaub GJJ und Boxen ist eine gute Kombo. Süd Deutschland?
@@jansettler4828 ja, Bayern :)
Coach, thank you for posting this video. Lots of Wing Chun practitioners don't focus on practical self-defense or actual combat, which is why they keep getting beat up on UA-cam.
I've been fortunate to have an instructor who focused on traditional and modern training methods because he realizes the inherent flaws of a system like Wing Chun. I wish this kind of training was more common. It's a shame, really. Thank you again from Korea.
Hello Guys, I am a traditional Wing Chun practitioner, but following this channel. I appreciate this film. It is good for TMA being asked, tested and forced to show wether their principles work or not. And conversation helps a lot. You are right putting the valid questions on the table. Thanks!
This has made me more open minded. People are usually like Aikido doesn't work. But they don't realise that what they have seen may not be the actual application. Martial arts are not about techniques but about the actual concepts, biomechanics as Nil said.
There's a UA-cam channel called Martial Arts Journey or something like that. A Lithuanian Aikido black belt who put the martial art to the test against MMA in live sparring. Kind of a "well how does this play out if I try it against resisting opponents" kind of thing.
Last I checked, he quite Aikido. Maybe it was just him, but he seemed to think it utterly failed under pressure testing.
@@justinbell7309 Aikido is for samuri or ronin that are off their horses. That's it. If someone is running at you on the battlefield with a sword, you've got a shot.
@@sonnygruntstick Aikido was invented by a guy who died in 1969. Pretty sure it wasn't designed for dismounted samurai...
@@justinbell7309 look back at his sparring at MMAshredded against Jeff Chan
@@muhaiminakbar4472 Recently he seems to hvae changed his tune a bit, and he's been re-evaluating Aikido and trying to figure out how to make it work. He's had some fun progress there.
Excellent input from these guys. Realistic and quite frank! Martial Arts is constantly evolving and no one system is better than others.
Two very educated men. That's what I love about you and your crew. Very educated, very calm collected and fact based argumenation! Food work Master Dewey! ;) (see what I did there?)
This is one of your best videos.. Not downgrading any art form but understanding that each works differently and in different scenarios..
I've done martial arts since I was seven and at 35 years old, I've learned that knives work better.
Fantastic point Nils made there about Wing Chun. it works very well in tight spaces where footwork and posturing are less useful. I suppose the best way to discover that is to test it under pressure
One time when I was training for a fight, my coach brought in a Wing Chung guy to train with us, since he was also on the card, and had no training partners.
Anyway, he had a great straight right, and used it effectively in training. During the fight he would use Wing Chung Pok with a backhand, instead of a straight right. He would hit every time, but that strike is ridiculous and didn't hurt his opponent. He didn't have the endurance to keep up the ineffective attacks, he lost and never fought again.
If he would have just mixed Wing Chung Pok, with real strikes; I have no doubt, he would have won. :/
The backfist is so often taught in classes because it looks cool (especially when Bruce Lee does it) but you're right a straight punch is far more direct and effective. Many schools of WC don't have the backfist and see it as a misinterpretation of a drill
The Problem with Wing Chun is that most schools are shit.
They do forms because of "tradition", they dont understand the forms at all, they dont practice the weapons and the teachers never answer all questions because they also were never told how they should traon properly. Most wing chun schools are like small cults.
If you want to understand how ving tsun works look up Wong Shung Leung and all his students (Philipp Bayer, Gary Lam, Barry Lee, David Peterson etc.).
They can teach you the whole system and the rest is up to you.
Ving Tsun is no magical art, it requires training and sparring like any other martial art too.
Only its way of teaching is very special and unique but only if it is complete.
I train it for years and also do MMA, I do not change my Ving Tsun at all in sparring or use small pieces of it. I just do Ving Tsun in stand up, and grappling on the ground.
Also Ving Tsun in its core is not about cool trapping techniques. The most important qulities that are trained in Ving Tsun all the time is striking power and structure (chi sao and pon sao). Also timing and distance is important. All these "trapping" movements are just there to make room to hit someone in the face and destroy his structure. Dont chase hands.
For anyone that is interested in how chi sao can give you punching power and structure, have a look :
ua-cam.com/video/VjcozWSvpjs/v-deo.html
Agreed WSL ving tsun is probably the most applicable version of the system. Philip Ng and Jerry Yeung who were some of WSL later students are also good people to watch.
As someone who has some inside knowledge on the wing chun community and teachings, I whole heartedly agree on the issues you brought up, but would also like to add the idea that, it's not that the instructor doesn't know the reasons or the weapon forms or whatever it may be, it's that they don't want to teach it. From what I've learned about the workings of certain sifus, there are plenty of times where they won't explain or teach something because they know that they can charge you for it instead, or they feel that you won't treasure it if it's just handed to you. I also do agree that if someone is going to learn wing chun, they should try to go for WSL lineage.
This is one of the most intelligent martial video I ever watched: practice, sparring and the right action for the current circumstances. Essentially every good martial art teacher I had said this.
Heh... I've used wrist locks in several occasions.
One time I applied one, very similar to the one shown in the video, during a robbery and it worked just fine.
I also took down a guy, that was trying to push me, using an Aikido technique. I didn't want to hurt him, and he was clearly not a trained fighter, so I let the ground and his own strength do all of the hurting.
Heh, learn what you can, see what fits you and your needs, mix it all up, train consistently and, if absolutely necessary, fight hard.
Context and correct technique indeed. 😃
and did you get away with the robbery or did the cops catch up to you? :P
Sure you have. Wing chun and aikido are a joke
I usually just punch them in the face.
The best analogy I ever heard for Wing Chin: Man challenges a WC Sifu. Sifu says yes but only if I choose the area. Man says OK. Sifu leads him to a bathroom stall. Man concedes defeat.
As a homebrew WC guy( wrestling and boxing background prior) I will attest that if you keep an open mind and be versatile, WC is amazing against people that have no concept of its use.
Tony Ferguson seems to have figured out a way to make it work. Pretty wild to watch. Great video.
This was very sensible and common sense thx guys...Hope Ramsey is listening and learning...
I am a USA Boxing coach in Park City, UT and a former USKBA top amateur kickboxer (ranked # 1 in North America)... One girl I coach is ranked #3 in the USA by USA Boxing and is qualified for the Olympic trials. I also study Wing Chun. So there is some basis for my opinion.The sensitivity training in Wing Chun is very useful. It helps you detect opponent attack by feel, and helps you to learn to launch attacks without telegraphing. It helps cultivate relaxed state, and a default to the elbow and hand guarding the center. And there are many movement patterns in ChiSao training which are great at times. But the Wing Chun system has major negatives as well, and its training protocols & practices, overall, will (if that is the only training you are doing) will get your butt kicked in the ring, in the cage, and on the street. Wing Chun has restrictive footwork WEAK punches, poor offensive attack psychology, and they stick their chin out. A LOT. Nills is correct: there are certain situations (position, angles, and distances) where having skills which Wing Chun and ChiSao training fosters is a great asset. But Wing Chun is a piece of the Martial Arts puzzle, and anyone who doesn't recognize that it has value has not been exposed to it. Anyone who thinks it alone is an effective fighting style/training method may have been exposed only to it, or drank the koolaid at an IpMan movie (which I love btw). A good high school wrestler or golden gloves boxer will beat the pants off any Wing Chun practitioner 8 times out of 10. But anyone who claims there are not actual, real, useful GEMS in the Wing Chun is simply.... mistaken.
THANCK You Jourden and Nills for your input. Im am a whin chun student & beleave both are right , Thanck You Ramsey for your effert to us what every thing You can.
In Jesus name ,GOD Bless You giys.
Luckily the guy next to me throughout boot camp and AIT was a Golden Gloves fighter from St. Louis and showed me how to take a punch and better yet, how to avoid them. His advice for street fights was completely different than the Marine instructors. 1. Avoid all fights. Use verbal judo. 2. Throw some money up in the air and run away. 3. Never tell or show somewhat what you’re going to do to them. Use the 3 Stooges eye gouge or head butt and run away. I really enjoy your vids, especially trying what YT experts teach so I had to share Joe’s Street Survival Moves. Lastly, when you try to duplicate Master Wong can you please yell, swear, shout and gesture?
You may not see full-blown Wing Chun in MMA but I've definitely seen Tony Ferguson incorporate some Wing Chun inspired techniques during fights. Use what works!
Even Anderson Silva!!!
I think one of the things Brian was getting at, is if you watch MMA fighters who use "flashy" techniques, they use it based on context. Like people who know capoeira don't open the fight with a cartwheel kick, and they don't use it multiple times. But people have been knocked out by a well placed, well timed, cartwheel kick. These higher level techniques call for specific situations, and you might only use one or two of the high level techniques in the course of an entire match.
Nice one Ramsey, I like this video a lot especially since I practice Shotokan, like these guys are explaining martial arts techniques are very contextual, you can spend several years practising one style but if all you're doing is just going through the motions there's no way you'll be able to use it properly in real life never mind in MMA. You see it constantly even with people who are grades that should know better, they're just going through the motions and not thinking about how it would actually be used.
This is exactly why you get so many traditional martial artists who rock on into MMA thinking they're going to beat everyone and get their arses kicked, what's fascinating though is it's not just traditional martial artists who go through this but even people like boxers as well. I remember watching a really interesting video where this boxer was explaining what happened when he got into an MMA ring for the first time and he just wasn't prepared for somebody taking him down to the floor.
Thanks for giving these martial arts styles a fair hearing, they do work, but it's all about context like the guy is saying in the video.
This was neat. I’ve met a few mixed martial artists and jiu jitsu players who are convinced there is something in Wing Chun worth exploring. Not that it’s all gold, but that there are a few things you can only find in WC that work in other applications.
“There are no easy solutions”, true!!
Take what you can use, forget the rest.
@True WingChun I was really just talking about martial arts here :) Keep the stuff that works and discard which doesn't. For fighting.
Jourdan is the only reason we are watching your videos, mate.
Thanks for the video, very interesting. As someone who practiced wing chun for about 5 years and has been doing mma and jiu jitsu(grappling in general) for the past several years. It's cool to know the similar and different experiences these men have had and how wing chun has affected their mma "game". I was taught it and have been implementing the conceptual ideas(centerline, structure, balance and the like) in wing chun, not the specific techniques as they exist in the forms. I have found it really helpful in learning what to do in the clinch and while striking once you known proper boxing, kickboxing or muay thai.
People wonder about MMA and traditional martial arts because MMA is just a conglomeration of martial arts into a full contact sport, MMA isn't a fighting style or form, it is simply a Nevada State Athletic Commission governed sport that pairs striking and grappling. MMA is a designation like Vale Tudo, it isn't a particular style of its own . It's a misnomer that MMA is thought to be it's own fighting type or style when it's the designation of a combat sport that uses techniques from various combat sports and martial arts, whether it would be on the ground or striking. The UFC, Bellator ect are classed as MMA so they're branded and sanctioned
It was a misnomer, now it's true - the metagame means that most mma fighters fight in the same style, which is distinct from any of the individual martial arts that were originally involved.
"There are no easy solutions."
Best summary, ever!
What people are missing is something that exists outside of any style: FOOTWORK. You need footwork to make ANY style work. An ability to get in the space where your style works. If you do a lot of long-range kicks, then you wouldn't do very good if I was in my "Wing Chun space," nor would you do good if a Jiu-Jitsu practitioner was close enough to grab you. Footwork is the ability to control space, so you force someone to play YOUR game. Not quite sure why it seems NO ONE understands that.
There's that bit of western boxing I've done, and every time I see wing chun I'm thinking right uppercut left hook ....
Well from the main stance you see on youtube I totally get you, but altough I extend one arm out it is not as much as you usually see. I have been caught with a long range hook before due to messing up my footwork but I have never been hit with an uppercut. In ving-tsun that space is already occupied by your elbow.
@@florisvanlingen shame we can't have a spaar ... you are thinking I'm going to be stationary in front of you ... it would be good to spaar .... if only for a couple of rounds .... unfortunately no wing chun practionars spaar round here ...
Sorry to burst your bubble, but before they started using bandaging and gloves to protect fighters hands, western boxing was very similar to wing chun.
You should really learn some history of martial arts.
@@agwantipalace278 I didnt say I was thinking you would stay stationary in front of me. I have sparred with loads of people. Tbh gyms that dont spar are shit, 90% of wing chun today is wattered down both knowlegde and training wise so I'm not surprised by your findings
@@yuriysemenikhin302 bare knuckle boxing is still practiced in the U.K. and US ... loads of videos on here..
It's nothing like wing chun
Nills kind of exemplifies a sort of Jeet Kune Do philosophy here that is neat. Keep the good, because the context of the fight matters. A lot of these techniques have functional roots and are situationally advantageous. It's about knowing that not every fight is that advantageous situation.
"There are no easy solutions" ----- that applies to nearly everything. People looking for shortcuts in life are the ones most likely to drive into a ditch.
Hi everybody. Beforehand , I want to thank you for this video and tbh it reminded me a lot of intrusting things. Gj guys! First at, approximately , 8 min captain Nills said that with a lock, nothing forces you to be submitted ; if I understood what he meant ( sry for my English which may not be perfect btw, im French 😊) you can resist to a lock. Fundamentally, that's true , you can do it BUT that can be extremly dangerous as your arm can be severely injured, particularly if the opponent(s) is stronger than u. The thing is that, as R.Dewey said, martial isn't magic and no technic can work in every situation as a technic is a very closed system and life is not. Centuries before MMA, martial artists like a samurai( whose name i forgot) told us that no fighter should be stuck in their technique . For the last few years, particularly in tma, we've seen to much guys who didn't listened to this samurai and they put shame on themselves and on their m.a ( martial art). These guys are one of the reason why some mma guys say about sthg that it doesn't work ( or whatsoever ) and also why people leave tma (which are dying for some of them-such as cma-) . Actually, no m.al'll work for u: u have to work. They can only give you clues to understand fighting and ,even for combat sport ( which ate different from ma in my humble opinion) , to dominate. Only the fighter can use wisely or not his ma win against an other one fighter. Another example from samurai: once the greatest of them M.Musashi, was challenged is a duel to death; the problem is that he didn't bring a real katana but , he was such a genius that he made one out of wood and eventually, he won. That means that martial arts are cannot do things for you and if don't train properly, you can fail ( no ma fail you, you can and have to adapt, change, improvise etc.) and even if you train your whole life you will as your a human being.
(I realize how much I wrote 😱😂😂) I also heard Nills saying that in the context of mma wc sucks( that it is mostly for self defense ). We could also say that mma wouldn't work in self defense against knives but again , it depends : there is no universal rules , a stick of wood isn't made for sword fighting but that's been proven that with enough skill, you can kill with it. Moreover, I honestly think that none of you guys could beat geniuses of boxing( tyson, hagler, pacquio, tua etc... )( which is not ma in my view but that's another topic) in most contexts. That wouldn't mean anything on mma and not truly more on you. Fortunately as ethg would be boring so.
The other thing is that even this philosophy of mixing ma can fail you because you cant learn ethg from every situation and also as your " mixture" may not be efficient. I usually hear , this ma cannot work in mma alone. You need some bjj, boxing etc : as if people couldn't fight without it! In fact , fighting is like a book , martial art is your grammar /logic , technique are words or letters and when applied it sentences, parts of combat, our book. The thing is when you mastered this literature( which never really happens) you adapt yourself to other types of writting ur not used to. A Kung fu guy can beat a boxer( that doesn't happen often though). I also wanna add that these two guys, although they spit some truths "only" spent two years in their ma (i don't think that's enough to understand this "grammar" off fighting, particularly in tma). When you understood literature , you can also adapt your language and wing chun , in its grammar and words, can be transformed( your not forced to use groin or throat strikes) to fit mma and be effective as the stick can kill. Finally, the philosophy of mma was already existing : your given a bunch of technique and you have to be efficient. That's theoretical but close from truth i think.
First of say Nills hi from germany :) Second Nills is not Captain Krav Maga, because like you explained in on oof your videos Cap Krav Maga always wears sunglasses and in this video are no sunglasses :D
I think it is totally true that there is not one martial art that succed others. I once sparred with a Kickboxer and I do not know anything about kickboxing, cause i train hapkido and true story he hit me a few times and then i saw an opening got really close and put him of his feet on the ground and got him easily into an armbar. I do not say that Hapkido is better than kickboxing, cause he could also knocked me out cold. The best is to have experience in many different forms and take the things that work for you and with that basically create your own unique system, cause it works for you does not mean it works for others. For example I have weak legs, so if I fight a opponent who i taller than me, if I have the chance i can hip throw him, but if he is shorter than me, no chance i can put my body middle under his to get him up. So find out what works for what situation and then use it.
I think WC is a self defense martial art that trains you to react to an attack in the most efficient way possible without telegraphing or excessive movements. For self defense you may need it at any age not just in your physical prime so it uses skeletal alignment to generate power, a bit like sharply stabbing with the butt of a bat rather than swinging it. Also the use of "parries" is incase the attacker is using a weapon (no point in covering up against a knife). It is terrible in a duel or Octagon but that is not what it is for.
Fantastic, sir. Great video!
I trained for a few years with a master from china in Brazil, he ran from "the great leap forward" since almost all his family had died, he was really old, he taught us that with Chinese martial arts in general, you never fight period, and if you have to, you never do it unarmed. The human body is not fit for fighting. So being taught that, I always get confused when people talk about Chinese martial arts without weapons.
Very nuanced and to the point. Never saw this perspective on Wing Chun before anywhere.
Excellent points on this video about the inevitable circumstantial factors of fighting. Thank you!
Ramsey can you please have jourdan do a piece about bagua please!? I think the philosophy of the martial art is fascinating and I’m interested in how bagua footwork can help me improve my taekwondo!
This.... this is just perfect!
Anyone who says that ONE martial art is the most effective simply has 1) little or no experience with other styles 2) is not a true Martial Artist. I recommend that they save their $ from lessons and just watch a UFC or Bellator PPV or catch a Jason Statham film in theaters. 👍
Thank you for that earth-shattering insight, Visitor From The Year 1994.
@@LAVATORR Your welcome. Glad this visitor could bring some common sense to your generation. 😅
@@LAVATORR Are you implying what I think you are?
@@jansettler4828 Well I know he's implying we should...."mix" our martial arts like some heretical madman, which is ridiculous because everyone knows pure Seven-Star Praying Mantis is the only complete martial art.
The saying that Wing Chun was made "for the street and not the cage" actually features a kernel of truth.
To try to win a fight with it exclusively, while your opponent has their distance and boxing stance ready, is hard and dangerous.
But most street fights begin much closer, with the opponent less well guarded, and usually with them pointing at you or pushing you around. There Wing Chun, trained agressively, really is one of the fastest and safest ways to end the fight.
However, you always have to be able to switch your style to Muay Thai, boxing or wrestling along with the response of your opponent, as any technique can be countered.
This is quite long sorry but I have a strong opinion on Wing Chun and other traditional martial arts and their usefulness or application in MMA.
“Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is uniquely your own.” - Bruce Lee
This quote from Bruce is such an important message even to this day. In MMA it is clear which martial arts have shown to be the most effective, however for every one of them we have to reject what is ineffective as there is a large diversity of martial arts being used in MMA and barely any restrictions in the sport. Wing Chun may be relatively ineffective when compared to successful martial arts like boxing, and that's why its presence is very low in the MMA sport for example. However, I think the third part of Bruce's quote is an important lesson that many people overlook quite often by not being open-minded. We've seen in MMA that whenever there is a useful skill or skillset that only one or very few have, it gives some leverage. For example in the UFC, when wrestlers (skilled grapplers) with some striking ability fought strikers who did not know how to grapple, the wrestlers dominated in the UFC. I'd say the main reason for this is when you have something that is "unique", others are not usually prepared for that aspect of your MMA. An effective skill or skillset that only you or very few have is one which others will tend to lack experience against, their ignorance gives you the element of surprise - arguably the deadliest weapon you can have. If you do not know anything about wrestling, how can you defend against it if you cannot anticipate and perform effective pre-emptive defence movements (like sprawling)? Traditional martial arts, such as Wing Chun, will more than likely have some techniques that may require adapting to be effective in MMA fighting. If you've learnt techniques from a TMA there is no reason not to test them in sparring to see if there is a technique with practical use that you can practice and add to your own arsenal, giving your opponent one extra thing to worry about. All martial arts are not equal in MMA, some have proven more effective and somewhat essential while others have been shown to be less effective and non-essential, but it is the non-essential skills that you have and the specific skills that you have honed well to be like your "signature skills" (e.g. Bas Rutten known for his liver destroying shots, floyd and his philly shell) that differentiate your skillset from someone else.
A good example of an mma guy who implemented wing chun into his fighting style is Anderson Silva. He would use the elbow block technique to block punches all the time. They even show him using the wooden peg stand thing (I dont know what it's called lol) in training.
One disadvantage in training any style is if you end up also only training AGAINST that same style. I was the sparring Champ of my whole School, until that Golden Gloves Boxer showed up. Doesn't mean I wasn't ready for a self defense situation, but if it turns into a fight you have a different problem.
I always find something cool about wing chun, but I always found something missing in it. It’s probably the lack of sparring or real resistance, because unfortunately most of the schools teach scenarios despite the fact that fights can’t be predictable at all. I think wing chun can be more effective if their practitioners apply their techniques against people with other styles. I would love to learn wing chun, but I wanna learn the most effective way to use it, not just scenarios.
That’s where my teacher was different, if you ask him what to do if a guy throws a hook he’ll give you multiple options. If you ask him what you should do next,he’ll respond with”I don’t know,that’s up to you to decide depending on what happened after initial contact.”
Context is everything.
Every martial art originated for a specific objective that has something to do with the concept of adaptation to a specific context: that's why I believe that knowing the historical perspective of a certain style is IMMENSELY important, because it says so much more about what this peculiar style is designed to do. Obviously I'm talking about true history, not legends that used to be fabricated to make that style sound so much important.
Basically saying that mixed martial arts is MIXED martial arts. MMA is not a fighting style, it's a mixture of everything you can learn to use effectively in a fight. In karate, modern wing chun and many other martial arts you do exactly that, you learn techniques from other sports and implement them in your fighting style.
The highlight of the video is that he said “I’m not at a level yet to use it, I ONLY learned for 2 years.” Still, this highlights the fact that we don’t even really know how effective a lot of arts COULD be, because the training mentality and methodology is simply not even producing students that know the who, what, when, where, how, and why of the art. The training used is not compatible with combat sports. Not even other Chinese combat sports. Not because it’s too deadly, but because it’s too abstract. 2 Years is a pretty good amount of time under a good coach.
The best possible thing that could happen to Wing Chun is for someone to get really good at it, that also happens to have extremely good Muay Clinch. NOT to copy or combine, but to actually put the art in the hands of someone with comparable skills in the same areas as the intended goals of the art. That person will actually be able to practice and teach things in-context, with practical / experiential knowledge to draw from. Rather than making it up from Air Drills, Partner Drills or simply trying to do “wing chun western-boxing.” Wing Chun is to Kungfu what Cap Kho is to Muay Thai, minus a training methodology to operate as a delivery system. Hence, when people “spar” with Wing Chun, they look / perform like exactly what they are doing.... making it up as they go along.
The best and most practical version of Wing Chun that has been explained to me is that at the highest level (once you've learned all the forms and techniques) is that you basically just do every move in the system with the finger jab instead of a punch. At that point it's basically just the science of poking someone else in the eye and kicking at their groin, while also limiting their ability to do the same to you. Presented in that way, I can't give the system to much grief.
Richard: learning right from the start with finger jabs will turn off a lot of students! Haha.
Work works.
I think it was sensei Seth with Jesse Enkamp who said that if you give a sponge to someone dedicated enough, they can figure out how to make it work as a weapon given enough time and hard work
In My opinion Mark Rasmus "Chiang Mai Thailand" has the best insights on Wing Chun and Tai Chi, understanding that I know off, if you have been practicing for a few decades or not, You can understand his interpretations on the subject, He explains in simple English what's happening with the body and mind, and what to expect. He also does not use metaphors or abstract statements to mislead the students, making it easy to progress in both disciplines and how to combine them for work in fighting, health practices and spirituality. Now get out there and understand Your training. From a lowly practitioner. Namaste'
I'm skeptical about Wing Chun, but from what I understand, it works best in tight spaces, like the little alleys that you run into in Asian cities. That is because it is designed for very close combat. Once you get to where there is more open space where your opponent can move and constantly change the distance, it becomes some what useless. I would like to see it demonstrated in this manner by someone who has actually had to use it to fight for their life in a confined space. Ramsey, could you do a video about JKD? I'd really like your perspective on it.
A usually unnoticed but very important part of WC is posture and Footwork. Bruces famouse pose wasn't just because he wanted to look good.
Try it out.
Tony Ferguson made me a believer in Wing Chun he has all the martial arts down but the one that catches people off guard the most is his Wing Chun moves he hits them with nasty elbows.
Nils is really soft spoken
It’s so no one suspects that he might really be Captain Krav Maga.
Speak softly and carry a big repertoire of martial arts. Or something.
Nills is right, I would love you to examine Sifu Dan Lok and Sifu Octavio whether you like their Jeet Kune Do learned directly from Ted Wong and another of Sifu Bruce students. I would feel in side of me, that you would agree with them. They can do all thes things because of how they mastered explosive force from a neutral position giving nothing away in their eyes, using stupid speed and power and using everything from European Fencing Lunges like I do to Western Boxing to Judo to Wing chun and many other forms and styles.
Jourdan says when you use Wing Chun, the goal is to subdue your opponent as fast as possible, but then he goes on to say it wasn't meant to be used for 3-minute rounds. Let's assume when he says "as fast as possible," he means 10 seconds or less. QUESTION #1: If you have 3 minutes, and you are supposed to subdue them in 10 seconds or less, then wouldn't that leave you with an extra 2 minutes, 50 seconds? I know one obvious argument here would be that MMA rules force you to exclude certain techniques, but here's the thing: I don't NEED to be able to hit the groin to defend myself. Therefore, you can't say a Wing Chun person can't dispatch an opponent quickly just because certain techniques are excluded. QUESTION #2: What difference does it make how long the round is? Does anyone remember the days when Mike Tyson would knock guys out in less than a minute in the first round? Last I checked, boxing rounds were also 3 minutes. Therefore, the point about the round length is irrelevant and distracting from the discussion at hand. QUESTION #3: Isn't the goal of ALL martial arts to subdue your opponent as quickly as possible? I mean, if some thug jumps a Judo practitioner on the street, do you think the Judo person would toy with the assailant for 3 minutes? No! He'd use Osotogari to slam his ass to the pavement AS QUICKLY AS HE COULD! My point here is simply this - a lot of the "Wing Chun criticisms" that your channel and others like it are NOT specific to Wing Chun; it's just that WC is the "redheaded stepchild" of the martial arts world. People love to pick on it. I have no idea why, and it has been that way for too long. Shouldn't we have another martial art to mock as useless by now? LOL
What wing chun criticism? This is a video of two active Wing Chun practitioners talking about wing chun.
@@RamseyDewey I am not sure what else it is when someone says, "Style X doesn't work when..." I don't think that is considered a "compliment." Also, don't get me wrong: I am not bashing either of them or their skills or knowledge. However, I have a different way of looking at the things they are saying, as I illustrated in my comment. Also, one thing I neglected to say: people always say Wing Chun works only in close range, but then they turn around and sing the praises of BJJ and every other grappling art out there. Last I knew, grappling arts were also close-range...even closer than Wing Chun! As a matter of fact, you pass through the Wing Chun range on your way to the grappling range. I mean, it doesn't take a lot of thought to realize anything that is said about why one art doesn't work could be said about any of them. In fact, you yourself said in one video, "I've met some WC guys who were pretty good, while others couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, but I could say that about any art." That is why I admire you. A lot of my fellow Chunners say, "Why do you follow someone who is always Wing Chun bashing?" My answer is: I don't think you are. I have watched several of your videos, and I have seen you change your opinion when you are presented with something that sheds new light on a given subject. You aren't one of these guys who says, "I decided Wing Chun sucks back in '95, and that's what I'm always going to think of it." You deserve a lot of credit and respect for that. With that in mind, I feel like I can respectfully offer a new take on an old subject, and you will actually mull it over instead of dismissing it because it doesn't agree with your previously established narrative. I hope none of my initial comment came off harsh. If it did, it wasn't intended that way. I do think you are a respectable and intelligent fellow, who is open for discussions. What stinks is that sometimes discussion isn't enough; only testing will do. Many times I have heard things said about Wing Chun by someone (not always you) in your videos, and I thought, "Damn! I wish I could go to Shanghai to have a friendly training session and show them what I know." Alas, I live in upstate NY, and I am one poor SOB. It's a shame because I know that, right now, I am just another face on the computer screen, claiming you would think Wing Chun worked if you saw ME do it. Anyone can claim that. This is the closest I can get to imparting my knowledge, and that's a shame because I think training with you folks would be a blast!
What a Great video! Truly!
They both have Great points!
Btw I don't think that I've seen Jourdan this calm. Maybe it's because he does not have a knife in his hand 😜
Jokes aside I'd love to come to Shanghai China someday just to train with you guys! 💪🏻
Ramsey, have you ever heard of Alan Orr? I would be interested in seeing you talk to him about using Wing Chun in MMA.
I don't care what type of style or system anymore, i only adapt what really works . As simple as that
It doesn't have to be complicated anyway .
Nice vid! So true about Wing Chun and most martial arts, you need good structure yourself and be able to manipulate the opponents structure to make the techniques and strikes effective. When Wing Chun works in fighting or sparring it's very easy to miss as it will be at close range in a fraction of a second not the highly stylised beginners drills we tend to see online 👍
It's one thing to wait for the perfect opportunity, it's another to make it. In UFC 229, Tony Ferguson's strategy of keeping Anthony Pettis stuck against the cage perfectly lent itself to Ferguson's wing chun techniques. One of the announcers aptly describes "He's keeping Pettis in a phone booth", but unless you're on that level of in-ring strategy, don't expect to have the necessary ring control. Either your opponent will back off or charge in, and he'll never let himself be at the range where your wing chun is any good.
Nice to hear them talk outside of their epic knive and krav maga fights
I have a couple years in Wing Chun, it is the only style I currently practice. Did 6 in tang soo do and a couple in hapkido and one day might look into some juijutsu, but I feel many of the WC techniques could work well against a wrestler, it is something I take note of and noticing more and more.
everyone says that about wrestlers until they fight wrestlers dude.
"Wing Chun is effective. Honest. If the context is right. Sometimes. Well it could be. Perhaps."
Unconvincing.
Well Tony Ferguson does ok with some Wing Chun basics as did Anderson Silva 🤷🏼♂️
@@williambrookings722 like what? an occasional wing chun like punch in an entire fight? ok.
Wing Chun could works in a small clouse place against an unprepared opponent. Is just my opinion. For many people Wing Chung is a fun art and it's ok! Respect for all martial arts!
Great interview! Tip from a filmmakers perspective: try to keep the main camera a little more in one place. It won’t get boring! This way its just a little less distracting. Keep up the good work :)
Its very well explained.
Im not 100% knowledgeable in wing chun so my opinion may be irrelevant but based on what i do know, some of the philosphy is practical and some of the moves are practical for real fight situations.. Many of the other moves that ive seen however, were not.. My first martial art was kenpo karate and my first combat sport was boxing... I had been jumped at 8 years old bu 3 teenagers and my mom said F it and put me in karate.. My father however, was old school puerto rican and believed boxing would suit me better so i did both.. I was very athletic and learned fast so once i was at a level in kenpo karate that i felt like bruce lee, i was inevitably put into a situation where i had to use what i learned... Let me tell you, i was VERY confident in my karate skills and imagined i would jackie chan them but, i learned VERY quickly, forms, certain kick combinations and defenive moves, do not amount to much when up again 1 or more opponents with the intent to seriously hurt you.. Where circular motion techniques in theory, are sound ideas, it is VERY hard to deflect a punch that is coming at you with a purpose and unless you are the flash, you will get hit.. Boxing faired much better in my experiences because the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line so, the boxing 1 2, is what wibded up me the winner in my next serious of attacks. Was kenpo karate useless? Ofcourse not... It taught me discipline, respect and yes, some moves which were benificial but boxing taught me the proper mechanics for a solid punch, hand speed, foot work etc... I eventually took the most practical moves and added them to my boxing while aalso training in wrestling.. This was before mma became mma so, i was ahead of the curve in terms of what is today considered mma and the things i learned, essentially saved my life on multiple occasions... Ill leave this bit of aadvice to kids... If you train in a martial art that teaches you to defend weapons and you master these moves with a high degree of confidence, do NOT let that confidence make you use those moves in real life... When confronted by weapons, stay calm and LISTEN! Do not try to dearm someone because you only have 1 life vs whatever materialistic objects that may be stolen, which you can replace. Ive had ONE experience defending against a weapon amd the risk reward, is largely unbalanced...
Small little note you do see wing Chun in MMA in brief moments, Anderson Silva uses the technique at 3:28 almost every fight when he has his back to the cage, and yes he practices wing chun all the time along with tons of other martial arts. Here is a link that shows many examples of him using it ua-cam.com/video/LT6IZ63oc-U/v-deo.html
List of coolest and powerful bald men:
Nills
Ramsey Dewey
Captain Krav Maga
Saitama
Master Wong
Lex Luthor
Krillin
Piccolo
Master Roshi
Professor X
Aang
Thanos
Johnny Sins
Samuel L Jackson
J-Mac
Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson
Vin Diesel
Jason Statham
Captain Jean Luc Picard
Patrick Stewart
George St Pierr GSP
Dr Samuel Loomis
Ernst Stavro Blofeld
Donald Pleasance
Shrek
Obadiah Stane
Dave Bautista
Drax
The ancient one
Stone Cold steve austin
This is what I've gotten up to so far if you have more suggestions let me know
Shaffique Kausar GSP and J Sins
@@dabssauce1198 already typed Johnny Sins but dont know who GSP is. I'll search him up
Captain Jean-Luc Picard
even when jordan tries to be serious i cant stop smirking looking at him
Why would I ever spend time learning wing chun for "close quarters" when I could spend that mastering the thai clinch and boxing in the pocket?