@@VideoGameEsoterica Why do you think Linus (LTT) then removed footage which showed them playing Mario Odyssey, from NSWitch, running on the Valve SteamDeck ? They used their own (jailbroken) NSwitch to dump the files, their own SteamDeck hardware, and the YuZu Emulator. They even challenged Nintendo to sue them, or take the video down. In fact, that was the reason they made the video in the first-place. But in the end, it was them who just removed the footage themselves.
Because they know they can’t afford a fight. Nintendo vs Linus? He may not be small at all but compared to large corporations…probably can’t / doesn’t want to afford it
@@VideoGameEsoterica That's just sad. Even when you're doing the right thing, people can use money/power to use the legal system against you. Truly no justice for the little guy. I mean I don't even know what Nintendo would be suing them for? Lost sales? That would hurt investor confidence if they sued, much more financially than LTT ever could.
These companies are probably kicking themselves that they made their hardware so solid back around the PS1 era. They probably wish they'd put some sort of self destruct timer in so we'd have to re-buy our retro game collections as digital downloads on pointless new hardware.
The part of the 9th Circuit Court decision that I find most interesting involves software boot up screens. After the Tengen case, Nintendo implemented a trap in the Gameboy. The Gameboy requires the software to recreate a portion of the bios and if it doesn't match, the software doesn't boot. The code in question, though, is the Nintendo logo coming down the screen. If it doesn't match, or you start the machine without a game present, it displays a black box and doesn't boot. If your game displays the Nintendo logo without Nintendo's permission, then it violates their trademark. Other console makers followed in their steps. Bleem got around displaying the boot up on the Playstation 1 by cutting the audio and video outputs when the SCEA and Playstation logos appear. Sony argued that they were still using Playstation and Sony logos even if they weren't displaying them to the user. The judge ruled that making a user break the law (violate copyright/trademark) to perform a legal task (emulation) not only made the "illegal" act legal, but potentially violated the spirit of US Copyright laws, riskingthe IP themselves. Notice that PS2 is the last Sony system to feature a splash screen when the software starts.
It’s such a weird shell game lol. That’s why the decision is so tenuous. It’s barely a decision and it’s still confusing even if it does make perfect sense. It hinges on tiny little technicalities
A more physical variation of this is with the Famicom Disk System where Nintendo had their trademark molded on the bottom of the disks as a deterrent against trademark violations. Pirates got around this by mincing the Nintendo name (NINFENDO, NINJENDO, INTEND, etc.) until they concluded that all it took to fool the FDS was to simply indent where it's needed for the game to run.
There was an unlicensed gameboy game that got around it with a weird mapper trick... the gameboy reads the image data once for verification at start up, but then rereads it every frame of the animation to render it as it slides down from the top. Basically, the mapper switches the logo out after the gameboy verifies it but before it became visible to a human. Neat trick! 🙃
When my brother showed me emulation on his PC a LONG time ago we never even had the thought it was illegal, we were just like hey lets play these Neo Geo games because realistically we'll never be able to afford these
Makes sense. I wish all the old retro games were for sale on steam. That way it would be legal for players and the companies would make money from the old games. I am sure any old pc or laptop would run the older games. I just bought the sega mini 2 because it has some games I remember from years ago and my daughter's favorite game from childhood is on it. It will be great for us to play it together. All of the emulation stuff is just to much trouble for most people and if you don't own the old game you will be paying big prices because its a collectible by now.
The thing about perserving something Like Art for the internet. Means, its there as it is, Its Art. To look at as an image on the internet to google and see. Same for books and comics. To look at. Thats the fulfillment of its preservation. Videos, film, and shows. Means to watch on the internet if its there. Lost in time and archived to watch. Its perserved and able for people to see. Video games is SO Different as Entertainment versus Art and videos. Its an Interacting Experience. And it NEEDS to be as ACCURATE as possible of its ORIGINAL Form Just like video and art. Its perfect for Art and Videos to be formatted to its fullest high quality entertainment material. Giving you its FULLEST entertainment of its original state. Same for music to listen to. At its best quality also. Or its original recorded sound. But again, Video game Material however isn't something to watch or see images of. Its something you MUST Interact with. And at its original state Possible to get the whole "Experience" of its entertainment. So YES you must have the Original copys of the original releases of games. No Remasters. Remakes. Yes you can add them technically. Its history. But DON'T DELETE the original. Like pulling a George Lucas trying to delete the Theatrical Cut of the Original Trilogy of Star Wars. By not making a DVD or 4k Release of it. OR NOT putting it in the public domain. When the public domain refused his Special Editions and asked for his Theatrical cut. He said he doesn't want to...he myt have lost it sadly. Or worst edit it for his special edition...horrible... Well... Thanks to fans. Its available online to see the Theatrical cuts. Thank you Preservation and piraters who uploaded the materials to save the original Trilogy of Star Wars. Thanks Internet!
Great video, thanks for all these insights. The sad part, legaly speaking it's a whole other story depending on the territory you are. USA is maybe the less strict, Europe is in the middle with lot of grey zones, but Japan of exemple don't mess with emulation, piracy and copyright enfrigement...
Congratulations for everything you've done and also offered us. As someone active in the digital preservation I've been in a similar situation as well. However, please be aware, that youtube has blatantly remove content by people, or even banned them, and while they were referring to specific laws and such, they basically told them to go on court. The Streisand effect is much stronger than we think...
Good for you for having the wherewithal to be able to stand up for yourself and not allow these companies to bully you. Who tried to take the video down by the way? Just curious. Unfortunately, they will continue to try and bully people that don’t know better. So glad you made this video.
Great Video. Thanks for the Infos. Even though the english speaking internet mostly covers US law, as a German I mostly try to inform myself about German and European legislature when it comes to those topics. More often than not people talking about those things make assumptions on what they think is right or on what seems to be the majority opinion on what is legal. This makes it hard to find correct information for the Situation in the US without spending huge amounts of time counter checking everything. Therefore its good to see a condensed statement from somebody that is well informed. Thank you for that.
If game companies aren't re-releasing certain games & certain versions of games, then should be okay to emulate them & we have the rights to access them. Modders & emulator developers are doing better jobs than game companies when it comes to retro game preservation. Many retro games aren't being sold in game markets nowadays, most of the original retro game copies are found in second hand markets especially some of the sealed ones that are found there, therefore the game companies aren't profiting from second hand market. Especially it's bad when games get de-listed from digital stores due to licensing, then yes we would have the right to pirate them, but look at movies & TV shows, they have lots of product placements & stuff like that, they're always available to access them legally, why can't this happen for video games.
Thank you so much for this video mate. This is a huge support for the emulation community. If possible & you had the time, would you make another video which teach exactly what to say in these scenarios.
Since my earlier comment got ghosted: Connectix Virtual Game Station and Bleem!/Bleemcast! are two different companies/cases. The lawsuit about VGA mostly boiled down to legal reverse engineering of the BIOS. The lawsuit about Bleem! boiled down to fair-use of in-game screenshots on the retail packaging. VGS was for Mac and Bleem! was for PC/Dreamcast.
But that case is still the best reverse engineering / legal precedent we have on emulation. Oddly it’s never seen a full case / decision. Sadly I feel like in the near future you will see a case solely on emulation and if it’s allowed. I am worried it won’t go “our way”
@@VideoGameEsoterica Yes, I only meant to point out that it was two cases, not one, though both were examples of Sony trying to squelch presumably-legal commercial PSX emulation. They were landmark cases since the emulated platform was still current. I still had my original big box copy of VGS until I got rid of it last year. It went for a stupid-high amount because of the history… and because it was still sealed. ;) Yeah, I didn’t own a Mac and bought it anyway to support legal emulation. Playing with fire here. Mentioning that is probably what got my previous comment ghosted or flagged for spam!
I watched the whole thing now. Thanks for your insight. Really good video, and thanks for offering to help those in need of help if/when required. Have a nice weekend.
Thanks god, at least I found someone who is familiar with law and working on emulation! Recently my emulation Channel 'CoreLand' got removed for no reason and I'm totally sure it's a mistake from Algorithm and AI of UA-cam but my appeals were rejected. As you mentioned in video I said maybe you're my last chance and the only one who can help me bring the channel back. I joined in your discord but don't know how to contact you for further information
To recap: I can legally emulate any game that I already own if I own the hardware that plays it as well. So I could hypothetically emulate any of my Xbox or Switch games on Steam Deck without breaking the law. But you also said that we have to create the digital file of the game ourselves? Is that right? If so, I don't think I'm willing to do the research / obtain the resources to do that.
Yes to be on the right side of the legal copy laws you'd make your copy from your physical software. In practice however obv that's not how things get done it seems
Thank you for this video. I have a question: There are no intellectual rights laws in my country and I can pirate any game, but I have ethical objections, so I do not want to steal any game. If you buy the old game from Mega Drive games, for example, on cartridge, Is it ethically permissible for me to download the same game from ROM sites and play it on a Steam Deck device? Because I cannot extract the game from the cartridge that I purchased
But what about copy protection? I thought that even though you may be able to create a backup that breaking the copyright protection is against the law?
@@VideoGameEsoterica I live in the UK and the law for this in the UK is quite contradictory, on the one hand you can backup your software but then it says as long as you don't break the copy protection, which makes absolutely no sense at all. I honestly really cannot see it a problem wanting to create an image of your own game disc so that you can play it on your handheld but I do understand it being a problem if you distribute it and worse still try and sell them.
@@VideoGameEsoterica Haha yes indeed, a complete mess it is. The UK law is like the US law, it is very much in line but just the terminology is slightly different. For an example of how stupid the UK law is, in late 2014 for a brief time, the government passed a law to make it legal for consumers to make a backup copy their media regardless of content, but this lasted all of 6 months when the law was overturned by the UK courts making it illegal to do so again, this was because the government didn't think the law through properly and didn't bring in any sort of levy on compensation to composers per say. This is a quite from the courts on the cause before the law got thrown out "The UK's failure to do so prompted an application for judicial review from composers society BASCA, the Musicians Union, and umbrella group UK Music. In June, Mr Justice Green agreed with the rights holders, saying the government's evidence base was so flimsy it didn't support its insistence on no-compensation." So because of this, it was illegal to back up your stuff again and it remains like this since 2015. I reality though, as you said, its never really ever been tested and I really doubt anybody would care less, let alone anybody actually following these rules. As far as I know, people have only gotten pulled up for selling this stuff especially in huge bulk. I hope the law changes again though to make something that's perfectly legal - legal again.!!!
Great video. Most people know emulation is legal and how to keep it legal but it's always good to remind people. The moment information like this becomes obscure to the masses the moment companies will pounce on our ignorance.
People don't realize how much emulation is going on in general. Microsoft has a built in Android emulator in Windows 11, Google relies on emulator software so people can develop apps, so on and so forth. Emulation touches the software space in all aspects, from video games to ATM software. If emulation were illegal, a whole bunch of commonly used products would be illegal. They're not porting code and using translation layers all the time.
Fan translating games seems to be okay since I don't provide files but based on what you're telling me, if I was to translate a book I own, if a court was to deem it a straight up replacement for the real thing even though I own and encourage others to own the original work then I cannot provide that translation. You sound like you know what you're talking about when it comes to copyright law and I do want to provide translations of as many of my books that simply will not get translations but it seems to be a legal grey area and it's leaning towards me being in the wrong. Correct?
I didn't happen to see if it had already been asked so apologies if it has, but how does the ownership test hold up with modification or failure of original hardware / software? Example: suppose I want to backup software on proprietary media like the UMDs the PSP uses, so I gut the device for its reader and either damage some other component needed for it to run as a standalone device, or a home incident like a power surge or fire destroys the hardware, and that same event also damages (laser burn) or destroys the original physical copy of the software but I have a copy stored in the cloud or some other secure location Assuming that I took every legal step, paid the money for the increasingly scarce hardware / software and, crucially, DID NOT resell them, at what point does my fair use protection start to get shaky? Or would it depend what a judge / arbitraor / jury rules based on my defense + evidence such as news articles / insurance claims paperwork / police reports?
@@VideoGameEsoterica I appreciate the response, that's helpful to know. Especially with how even something as "recent" as the PSP is going on 2 decades old at this point 😬
Whilst I love emulation, it has unfortunately done some harm. I don't know if you are aware of antibiotic resistance; when you use antibiotics, any bacteria that isn't killed by the drug is essentially left to mutate and become stronger, survival of the fitness in its purest form. Third Party Emulation is having this affect. Companies hate it so much so they'd rather create games that they can kill than allow them to be 'pirated'. I keep having horrible anxiety attacks thinking about Fantasian by Hironobu Sakaguchi. It's an Apple Arcade exclusive and I have no apple products to play it on. It's a single player RPG but because it's server based it's technically a live service game. Once Apple turn off Apple Arcade it's gone. And I don't mean 'hopefully someone has it on an iPad so we can dump the data' gone. I mean it's fucking GONE. No one, even the people who had the icon on their phone will be able to play it again. Emulation can only do so much and as dubious as it is to reverse engineer a game that technically uses copyrighted material, I think we are approaching a future where gaming companies and preservationists are going to butt heads hard. Because we are entering the end times and I think we all know that the US law system isn't going to do shit to help. They don't even see planned obsolescence as unethical. Toon Town meant nothing to Disney. It was an old failed MMO. They killed it purely out of spite and because they could. Emulation has allowed me to play many of my favorite games that shaped my childhood. I can only hope that someone thinks of a way to allow our children the same experience. Because the idea of young people growing up and not being able to experience the art that shaped their lives like I can right now with the PS1 and PS2 is sickening.
I have a ton of different catalogues of system ROMs on external hard drives just in case but I truly don't think anyting 20-plus years old will ever become illegal. It is just too hard to police that in any feasible way.
Hi, thank you for your service! I got a question, what about those videos that point you in the direction of a downloadable BETA rom of an incomplete game that was never sold by the software house? Are those going to be taken down? Thanks!
Would dumping the roms from a legally owned item? (Example would be licensed roms from one of those mini consoles) and say take those and put them on a flash cart to play on the official hardware? Some of the terms and conditions claim its a violation to copy the roms from anything on the device its self. An example on the mini consoles says "This product is licensed by --- and protected by copyright. Any unauthorized distribution or copying of the software contained within (with the exception of any software that has been licensed under GNU General Public License Version 3) is strictly prohibited by law."
There is no precedent disallowing the archiving of digital only files (something you can’t tangibly hold like a cartridge) and using them for your own use
Compilation games nowadays will use open source or pay the dev of an closed source emulator. Mame changed it's license to allow commercial use. But it's the publishers and game devs that like this, not necessarily the hardware makers
Quite interesting. I'm wondering. What about if I dump and extract games from my Virtual Console purchases, retro compilations on Steam, or mini consoles? Would that also fall under fair use?
I suspect that a lot of people may think that owning he game is enough and will be surprised t hear that having the console is another requirement. I agree that it is likely that there will be further legal challenges in future, not so much for content that is no longer produced for large scale purchase but for current systems, in particular the Nintendo Switch. Such a legal case might potentially open up an option to argue that if something is no longer available for purchase, with no loss of revenue, then in the interests of game preservation for one, that historic content could be considered fair game for copy, distribution and emulation provided that nothing of monetary value takes place in the process.
Thank you for this video, but I'm a little confused. Are you 100% certain that, in order to emulate a game that I own using a back-up copy that I've made, I need to own a legitimate, physical version of the console that it was made for? I thought that a part of that Bleem verdict was to establish that software publishers cannot limit the hardware that their software is usable on. I do not believe that emulators actually operate like the hardware that they're imitating, and thus should not be in violation of any patents or anything; isn't a Playstation emulator just an independent, third-party platform that is capable of playing Playstation software? Isn't this the precedent that allows companies like Analog and Hyperkin to do business in the daylight? Unless I misunderstand you, I do not believe that you need to own any console in order to legally emulate games unless the emulator in question requires a ripped BIOS file, right?
If you need the bios for the emulator you need to obtain it from the console for it to be on the technical side of legal. If you don’t require a bios….less so
Anyone who has a complete collection of some system want to do an experiment? Sell $1 shares. Ownership of the collection goes into a trust, all proceeds fund the trust, so upkeep, acquisition of new titles. No profit. But ownership becomes shared. I'm sure this would get drummed out of court, but if hedge funds can do it for businesses, why not games? Use their own rules against them.
So, I'm confused. When I search if emulation is legal, it says yes. And states pretty much what this video says. But when I search how to legally dump my games everything is saying that you need to jailbreak your modern consoles in order to access the stuff you need to dump the games. Then when I search is jailbreaking game consoles legal, everything I find says Because Jailbreaking a Console requires modifying the consoles software, and that when you buy a game console you do not own the software and that you only own the hardware, it is illegal to jailbreak a game console. So at the end of the circle of searching, emulation is legal, but jailbreaking is not, and the only way to legally dump games is to jailbreak the console. And since it is illegal to download the files you need, the entire process is messed up. How in God's Name do I legally dump my modern game consoles games? I know your video is 7 months old but still. I just want to play my switch games on PC.
It’ll probably remain a grey area. A hardware manufacturer who’d want to test it in court could win…or they could lose and then it would be explicitly permitted. They might not want that
Quick correction: Connectix and Bleem are different companies who were subjected to different lawsuits from Sony, and the judge ruled in their favor the same in both cases.
One thing I would LOVE to have tested in courts, and actually clarified for once, is whether or not reverse engineering can be considered clean room whilst using things like leftover symbol data. I mean, logically, if they wanted that info gone they should have stripped the executable... and in my case (with the game I am REing for fun) it's not my fault they left symbol data that tells you what compiler was used - allowing you to look up the public documentation for the IDE to learn what debugging formats are used, and then allowing you to look up the (very open) format to figure out how to get the symbol data into a usable form.
I didn't gather "you need to own the original hardware" from the Connectix case? The entire point is that you should be able to use COMPATIBLE hardware INSTEAD OF original hardware, as long as that compatible hardware wasn't made or distributed illegally (which software emulators aren't). You DO need to have a valid license to the original software, although the courts' interpretation of the DMCA has since made enforcing fair use rights with that a lot murkier since Sony sued George Hotz for circumventing copy protection and settled out of court, and all methods of game dumping have required circumventing some kind of copy protection either on the console or on the storage medium ever since the launch of the XBox 360. EDIT: Also, while you CAN'T point people towards eg. downloadable BIOS files, you CAN teach people HOW to extract BIOS files from original hardware (as long as the method doesn't violate the anti-circumvention portions of the DMCA, which, uh, WHO KNOWS? Mr Mario's channel still exists, for now...)
@@VideoGameEsoterica I would LOVE to learn any tricky bits I don't already know! Is there a "long version" of your video you would recommend, either on UA-cam or in article/blog form?
Let me look at my teaching paperwork sometime next week. I probably have some docs / interpretations on some case law. It’s been like three years since I’ve gone through it
I got into emulation with ppsspp back in 2017 and now I fully into it.Also I never thought emulation is illegal since at some point we will lose access to old physical copies and console all together
Just had a tut taken down. A link for the emu was in the description, only the emu of course. Does providing links for the emus upset UA-cam? I appealed it
And that’s all you did? Honestly in the future don’t link it. People are smart. They can google. But technically as long as the emu isn’t supplying files you shouldn’t be supplying them I’d lean on that. But you already appealed so I don’t know what sort of language / justification you used in the appeal.
@@VideoGameEsoterica Yeah just a clean build of the new Triforce emu. I kept the appeal shot and sweet. Just said, 'nothing malicious has been provided'
Ahh Nintendo. There’s a reason I won’t touch much of their stuff for these tutorials. They are vicious. You appealed correctly. Will you win? Zero clue. If you want upload the video to google drive and email me a link. I’ll watch it and confirm you are on the right side of the rules
I wish copyrights would expire after 25-30 years. Instead it seems things only get worse. Also, that company that is going to take legal action to change the rules... is there any doubt that it'll be Nintendo?
Wow, looking at the state of own Sony PS3 emulation nowadays that left pretty far behind RPCS3, we knew that one thing for sure is we cannot count on corporation to do their job properly... Thats sad and shameful at the same time because they will always screw emulation scene, the only hope of preservation effort...
I found your video cause Mr. Sujiano recommended this if in case we want to post videos using emulators. It's really informative hoping emulation will truly be legal in the future. Cause honestly, emulation is much more convenient than the real hardware.
Welcome! Yes plenty of people find emulation more convenient, especially in the days of LCD tv. I use it as much as I use original hardware…and I have a LOT of hardware
Emulation is legal however, don’t most end user license agreements, prohibit backup copies of games onto another device? Can the manufacture take action against me if I violate the agreement.
I love that emulation is legal, but I can't help but feel like legal emulation is largely restricted to those who are rich/well off enough to buy retro video games at scalpers prices in order to have proof of ownership, and those who have good tech skills. It's very easy for a person lacking those 2 benchmarks to want to skip a few legal steps and very easy for those who can't or are afraid to to start thinking that legal emulation is a rich person's game. I know companies are wanting to make emulation more restrictive/illegal, but hopefully there are less restrictions in the future.
That’s why it’s important when voting to know what the people you vote for stand for. Laws around technology are going to be very important in the coming decades and will affect us all
well if your ever in Toronto Ontario Canada let me know lol i do have some best times to compare pick the track and ill let u know my best all in good fun though.
Anybody in europe know of any similar legal precedent? I believe Germany has laws that forces the mame devs to hold on to pcbs forever for a game that mame code bypasses the protection on. Also, I am baffled why people are permitted to link to the infamous "update all" for mister? It's ok to link to a script that downloads the roms and bios files but not link to the files themselves?
UA-cam need to look at the scammers & bottom-feeders they allow to advertise on their platform. Give the content creators (who make the platform worthwhile) a break.
That good and all but even if you play a pirate copy from a game if people don't know about it I don't think is any problem For example if dawnload a ps2 emulator and game on the indernt even if this game is a pirate copy If competition don't know about it I don't think I have any issues
Lots of comments already but if you've ever played a rom and didn't own the hard copy you can sing along with me. "Yar har, fiddle de dee. Being a pirate is alright to be. Do what you want 'cause a pirate is free. You are a pirate!"
If they truly are so hellbent on removing emulators. then there would be a couple of steps that the companies themselves URGENTLY have to start with. that would be GETTING RID of BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY AND THE ENTIRETY OF NSO as the only way they can actually even accomplish this IS BY EMULATION.
Re: if you sell the game you must destroy the file. Question: if we destroy the physical game (e.g. threw it away years ago), can we keep the file? Re: I can't tell you where to get archived software... Question: So... you can't tell people that the internet archive archives software?... like as an unrelated statement? Re: I knew how to defend myself. Question: what did you say?
I don’t believe there is any language that specified if the original copy is destroyed. Bit of a grey area. I might be able to say that but its easier for me not to
@@VideoGameEsoterica Thanks. I appreciate that you have to be vague in your response. That's a helpful perspective all the same though, and I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions at all, given their nature. 🙂
@@VideoGameEsoterica Yeah, and even if they do understand some aspects of technology, you'd need some really capable lawyers to drive home the main points of emulation.
@@VideoGameEsoterica It's always been the case that 'normal' consumers get punished by corporations draconian decisions which would never hurt the hacker/modder scene anyway
I plan on purchasing an emulation device. And live streaming my emulation device. The games that I will live stream I will own physically. I don't know how to respond if I get any reaction from UA-cam. Can you help me Have a pre-prepared response?
Nope. This is really only applicable to when you are teaching someone HOW to emulate. If you are just playing on it then it doesn’t really affect anything
Nintendo of Japan. Is so anti this or that. Over the intellectual property of pirates downloading the entire database whereas others could get in trouble for downloading one file. The problem... Roms are the official or finished of products. The developers referring to the publishers who cheated, ought to be sued for attacking the general public of gamers after they upload the files of the corporation anyway. At one point, their used to be a internet experience without having to pay, but thank you Japan for making it cost, and people having to go through three providers just to play a single game series. Thank you pirates and idiots for cheating the games, making unfair for people like regular users to play a single game. Though the situation is a matter of corporate cost in relation to such. It should be illegal to download in any country. Point blank simple if they are going to use the copyright act that nobody really listens to. Notice these are strictly laws prohibiting the US from having technology. We helped you build it, so we will take it from you who stole from us. - others would say. European Union, Russia, Germany, China, Korea, you name it whoever hacked this company or those who worked for it. As their access was the Wii, WiiU, or programming to that of the switch they don't even want to touch break of encryption with, because it will break the system - Oh wait, Smea of 3ds. Note... As one who emulates the console or knows that the 3ds was a ruin to nintendo based on encryption. The factor is that of Smea, to that of Gary Bowser, and others like Team Twizzlers, GBA tempt, the big N, ought to be sued for hacking aside from emulation building with that of malicious codes provided in firmware updates and monitoring by the big corporation itself, thus relating to China or their "so called private" ip of Japan. Others like us wanted to complete a series and have based on the fact that developers were idiots who put out the tools for public to test, which is a no-no. XD The tech industry understands how it has mistreated the US counterpart through that of Russia and more illegal pirates referred to of the company and the misrepresentation to that of Germany. But I will not list sources besides that of their wiidatabase site, whereas the others such as github download using the official databases. If Nintendo were so protective of its intellectual copyright stupidity, it would pay each back for every game that could be emulated. And this company would comply with the aspect of security aside from it being an industry of entertainment. The problem is that they effect the retail markets. Nobody discusses the bull shit of legal nintendo porn ( which is illegal to begin with to that of its dark past and that of fake EULA agreements under section XXX of whatever article as to comply with the company for a non-disclosure agreement. Hence the developer site to that of 16 year olds and older hacked the business. As learned by others then you got your copycats. Which you must be older than 18 or so. So also they broke the console with just a paperclip and uploads of switch on firmwares and discord. But leave it up to others for the switch scene, and more as mentioned by ROMsLab. The people are crooks, absolute, and need to put the stuff to build back in the archives where it belongs. So fuck you Japan, for stealing the Wii to Wii U. = called access. Oh wait, forget encryption, 3ds and server the switch to that of the PS-Sony. The Pokemon company also should be sued but because it is a trademark of the corporation, to binary and hex, it cannot be along with the community that is not so much a community as rogue. Thus, Nintendo relies on binary and hex to that of its firmware to keep products secure aside from others being rogue with the code or owning a copy of their game to that of shareholders. The factors that the hash verifies signifies a game can be played legally or illegit. So if one were a pirate like retropie, and that of other people, downloaders should have more benefits than the uploader, though the company would like to be stupid with permissions. - Example Bethsada to that of Skyrim or promoting a game that is non-finished, or that of Nexus community. Perhaps then Gamefreak would not be so stupid to give a person who used to understand the concepts rather than him a lawsuit. As that of business and much, others use torrents which is the only way to get switch game versions. Aside from much, Nintendo is after emulation, so basically the company would screw itself in the ass and forget the public for intellectual rights. Note, some of us built the system for you, so we can break it. And To those of the European Union who got games free compared to the regular public that uploads it... Nintendo and others give the middle finger, yet I do not defend the ethics of pornography shit to that of movies based off of real video games that others like me have to pay for products in the consumer market, and it gets old as if this corp has been around for 100 years. It is about time for gamefreak and others to retire, unless they want to be stupid. Unless remakes are not remakes but at least a finished series or product. It is about preservation to some people are just plain greedy. But the preservation aspect comes at a mutual respect among pirates and developers alike though it is the uploader who should be charged more than a downloader. Nobody strangely discusses why Roms should be legal. Well start discussing the legal as to why they should be. Because the ROM is read only memory. Others like TOSEC and retired tools, built the roms, but people cannot even do that anymore and some of the tools are overly outdated. So there is a relience on the hash to keep them updated. If something cannot be played, that is how in the world do you block a hash, and that is no on the efforts of Nintendo's doing to coders in the developers sector to protect their products. That is the problem with this company, to it as an entertainment industry rather than a technical partner. Roms, technically are legal but it depends on the effectiveness to situation of the rom and what you plan to do with it. Aside from the fact that you should not put an android rom or OS on the switch and be an idiot like Team Xecuter. Otherwise, teach people how to make it again. = Their own ROM.
@@VideoGameEsoterica This was an interesting question and I believe this answer makes sense because the whole idea is that the physical copy is a license right? If so if you still have it - even if it's say a scratched disc you'd still have the license then I suppose so emulating it isn't all bad but that also doesn't entitle you to downloading it. I say this one was interesting because I have some old PS2 games I'm looking to dump and the discs are a bit scuffed so I figure I need to look for someplace that does disc buffing. I presume that'd maybe fix up any read errors that prevent it from being archived.
It's strange to have something available freely for more than a decade and then suddenly decide it's illegal. It's unfair to the users. They should have made a serious move to stop it sooner rather than do this.
@@VideoGameEsoterica Like Back To The Future? I loved the early days of emulation. I remember being on my PC at midnight on the filemirrors site trying to get the latest NeoRageX rom. MISTer is exciting like that was.
This is one of the reasons I REALLY don’t like people calling remasters and rereleases “preservation”. Corporations do not preserve our culture and art, you do!
For film, remasters of old prints that are scanned and cleaned up and presented at a higher resolution than available before def count as preservation. But totally diff medium
@@VideoGameEsoterica As someone who collects boutique horror Blurays from places like Vinegar Syndrome, I kind of agree, but I consider those remasters in their own right. It's still up regular consumers to archive those restorations digitally. Especially as those restorations can go out of print pretty quickly for lots of reasons. And due to rights holders, we never know when a release of a film is the last release it will ever get.
I had so many out of print dvds at one point years ago and a couple hundred criterion collection discs. I ended up parting with them though. Kinda regret it and kind of don’t
The funny thing is that they will lock them behind a monthly paywall or put all these games on a mini system, rather than just put them on a card so we can buy them on a Switch.
I've been chatting with you on here and reddit What do you do for a living? 😂 Actually I'll ping you on reddit, I want to see if you can help me with something
Another point I think you fail to make. Some Games and Hardware are "Lost Media" you cannot get the hardware anymore or Arcade games. Games which are like 6K or 9K. Like really?!? Now if you are Legal able to get these games in the store still or Digitally. I would say that is "illegal". For example if you can get the game off the Switch. You cannot download it illegally. Fans will continue to make Fan Games and You or Nintendo won't be able to do anything about it.
Sorry hit send before finishing. Abandonware isn’t relevant to the main purpose of the video but I do agree that lost / abandoned media is a diff story
@@VideoGameEsoterica I am asking "Then what about Arcade Systems or Hardware which you cannot get hands on or is way too expensive to get.. for example Galaxian 3 Attack of Zolgear vs Dragon's Lair?" Dragon's Lair you can find widely available. Galaxian 3 attack of the Zolgear you cannot get or even find a playable copy and even if you did would be way over priced.
That... isn't what clickbait means. There are people who don't seem to understand, or get, that emulation in of itself isn't illegal, hence why videos like this (and discussions on places like Twitter) keep happening/keep being necessary.
From my understanding nintendo are the worst with this they hate that you can run your switch games on the steam deck and will go after you with copyright strikes on videos
Awesome video! Comprehensive, entertaining and definitely a great reference!
Appreciate it! Was fun to make
@@VideoGameEsoterica Why do you think Linus (LTT) then removed footage which showed them playing Mario Odyssey, from NSWitch, running on the Valve SteamDeck ?
They used their own (jailbroken) NSwitch to dump the files, their own SteamDeck hardware, and the YuZu Emulator. They even challenged Nintendo to sue them, or take the video down. In fact, that was the reason they made the video in the first-place.
But in the end, it was them who just removed the footage themselves.
Because they know they can’t afford a fight. Nintendo vs Linus? He may not be small at all but compared to large corporations…probably can’t / doesn’t want to afford it
@@VideoGameEsoterica That's just sad. Even when you're doing the right thing, people can use money/power to use the legal system against you. Truly no justice for the little guy. I mean I don't even know what Nintendo would be suing them for? Lost sales? That would hurt investor confidence if they sued, much more financially than LTT ever could.
That’s the reality. Whoever can outspend the other person can be wrong yet still prevail
These companies are probably kicking themselves that they made their hardware so solid back around the PS1 era. They probably wish they'd put some sort of self destruct timer in so we'd have to re-buy our retro game collections as digital downloads on pointless new hardware.
a SNES will last forever. I am on my third Switch
My feeling excatly my PS4 already broke just from being played my snes and PS2 which I have had since day one are still working fine with no issues
The more complicated they get the easier they break sadly
The PS1 was flimsy. You'd end up having to put it on its side or upside down to read discs, until it just stops working.
Haha like the one in the video
The part of the 9th Circuit Court decision that I find most interesting involves software boot up screens. After the Tengen case, Nintendo implemented a trap in the Gameboy. The Gameboy requires the software to recreate a portion of the bios and if it doesn't match, the software doesn't boot. The code in question, though, is the Nintendo logo coming down the screen. If it doesn't match, or you start the machine without a game present, it displays a black box and doesn't boot. If your game displays the Nintendo logo without Nintendo's permission, then it violates their trademark. Other console makers followed in their steps.
Bleem got around displaying the boot up on the Playstation 1 by cutting the audio and video outputs when the SCEA and Playstation logos appear. Sony argued that they were still using Playstation and Sony logos even if they weren't displaying them to the user. The judge ruled that making a user break the law (violate copyright/trademark) to perform a legal task (emulation) not only made the "illegal" act legal, but potentially violated the spirit of US Copyright laws, riskingthe IP themselves. Notice that PS2 is the last Sony system to feature a splash screen when the software starts.
It’s such a weird shell game lol. That’s why the decision is so tenuous. It’s barely a decision and it’s still confusing even if it does make perfect sense. It hinges on tiny little technicalities
A more physical variation of this is with the Famicom Disk System where Nintendo had their trademark molded on the bottom of the disks as a deterrent against trademark violations. Pirates got around this by mincing the Nintendo name (NINFENDO, NINJENDO, INTEND, etc.) until they concluded that all it took to fool the FDS was to simply indent where it's needed for the game to run.
Not gonna lie the physical shape lockout was a fun idea
There was an unlicensed gameboy game that got around it with a weird mapper trick... the gameboy reads the image data once for verification at start up, but then rereads it every frame of the animation to render it as it slides down from the top. Basically, the mapper switches the logo out after the gameboy verifies it but before it became visible to a human. Neat trick! 🙃
For every smart and unique version of protection there is someone smarter out there that takes it as a challenge to get around it
When my brother showed me emulation on his PC a LONG time ago we never even had the thought it was illegal, we were just like hey lets play these Neo Geo games because realistically we'll never be able to afford these
It’s so prevalent nobody ever thinks about the cases behind it :)
In third world country, it's very commonplace too
It’s important to have videos like this. Good work! 👾
Appreciate it :)
We need to let the community know about this, you are doing the right thing
I know Mr Sujano will be talking about it again but if anyone else wants to reference it to get the word out I am happy they do so
Makes sense. I wish all the old retro games were for sale on steam. That way it would be legal for players and the companies would make money from the old games. I am sure any old pc or laptop would run the older games. I just bought the sega mini 2 because it has some games I remember from years ago and my daughter's favorite game from childhood is on it. It will be great for us to play it together. All of the emulation stuff is just to much trouble for most people and if you don't own the old game you will be paying big prices because its a collectible by now.
It’s a bit sad that most old games aren’t even available to purchase any longer
The thing about perserving something
Like Art for the internet. Means, its there as it is, Its Art.
To look at as an image on the internet to google and see. Same for books and comics. To look at. Thats the fulfillment of its preservation.
Videos, film, and shows. Means to watch on the internet if its there. Lost in time and archived to watch. Its perserved and able for people to see.
Video games is SO Different as Entertainment versus Art and videos.
Its an Interacting Experience.
And it NEEDS to be as ACCURATE as possible of its ORIGINAL Form
Just like video and art. Its perfect for Art and Videos to be formatted to its fullest high quality entertainment material.
Giving you its FULLEST entertainment of its original state.
Same for music to listen to. At its best quality also. Or its original recorded sound.
But again, Video game Material however isn't something to watch or see images of.
Its something you MUST Interact with. And at its original state Possible to get the whole "Experience" of its entertainment.
So YES you must have the Original copys of the original releases of games. No Remasters. Remakes. Yes you can add them technically. Its history. But DON'T DELETE the original.
Like pulling a George Lucas trying to delete the Theatrical Cut of the Original Trilogy of Star Wars.
By not making a DVD or 4k Release of it.
OR NOT putting it in the public domain. When the public domain refused his Special Editions and asked for his Theatrical cut. He said he doesn't want to...he myt have lost it sadly. Or worst edit it for his special edition...horrible...
Well...
Thanks to fans. Its available online to see the Theatrical cuts.
Thank you Preservation and piraters who uploaded the materials to save the original Trilogy of Star Wars.
Thanks Internet!
Lucas needs to leave his films alone lol
Great video, thanks for all these insights. The sad part, legaly speaking it's a whole other story depending on the territory you are. USA is maybe the less strict, Europe is in the middle with lot of grey zones, but Japan of exemple don't mess with emulation, piracy and copyright enfrigement...
Yes that's why I made it a point to just use the US as the frame of reference as its the area I live in / law I researched and taught
The Japanese had it worse as copyright violations are treated more as a felony there.
So grateful for people like you that know this information and are sharing it!
Always happy to do it :)
Congratulations for everything you've done and also offered us.
As someone active in the digital preservation I've been in a similar situation as well.
However, please be aware, that youtube has blatantly remove content by people, or even banned them, and while they were referring to specific laws and such, they basically told them to go on court.
The Streisand effect is much stronger than we think...
Yes the reality is “he who has the money sets the rules” is in effect all over the place
This video is awesome. Very well done. The community benefits from this.
Happy to do it. I’m just glad I have the background to provide the help
Very informative. Keep doing what you're doing!
Not stopping any time soon. Not till I get bored
Interesting topic. You say you know a lot about music copyright, I would be interested to hear more about that from you.
Music copyright is the area I know best of all. 20 years experience in it
@@VideoGameEsoterica yes, can you make a video about it?
Good for you for having the wherewithal to be able to stand up for yourself and not allow these companies to bully you. Who tried to take the video down by the way? Just curious. Unfortunately, they will continue to try and bully people that don’t know better. So glad you made this video.
I was not made aware as to the party that requested the removal. Now that it’s reversed the details aren’t on my dashboard
Great Video. Thanks for the Infos. Even though the english speaking internet mostly covers US law, as a German I mostly try to inform myself about German and European legislature when it comes to those topics.
More often than not people talking about those things make assumptions on what they think is right or on what seems to be the majority opinion on what is legal. This makes it hard to find correct information for the Situation in the US without spending huge amounts of time counter checking everything. Therefore its good to see a condensed statement from somebody that is well informed. Thank you for that.
Yes the only reason I know this is from having worked around a lot of copyright / IP laws in work situations / having taught it
If game companies aren't re-releasing certain games & certain versions of games, then should be okay to emulate them & we have the rights to access them. Modders & emulator developers are doing better jobs than game companies when it comes to retro game preservation. Many retro games aren't being sold in game markets nowadays, most of the original retro game copies are found in second hand markets especially some of the sealed ones that are found there, therefore the game companies aren't profiting from second hand market. Especially it's bad when games get de-listed from digital stores due to licensing, then yes we would have the right to pirate them, but look at movies & TV shows, they have lots of product placements & stuff like that, they're always available to access them legally, why can't this happen for video games.
I agree. If you abandon it you abandon it. Stop leaving it all in limbo
Thank you so much for this video mate. This is a huge support for the emulation community. If possible & you had the time, would you make another video which teach exactly what to say in these scenarios.
If you ever need help just contact me. The whole what to write is subjective to each instance
This is a very helpful video! You make very clear points and are easy to understand.
Thanks. Appreciate that. I just hope it helps others!
Since my earlier comment got ghosted:
Connectix Virtual Game Station and Bleem!/Bleemcast! are two different companies/cases. The lawsuit about VGA mostly boiled down to legal reverse engineering of the BIOS. The lawsuit about Bleem! boiled down to fair-use of in-game screenshots on the retail packaging. VGS was for Mac and Bleem! was for PC/Dreamcast.
But that case is still the best reverse engineering / legal precedent we have on emulation. Oddly it’s never seen a full case / decision. Sadly I feel like in the near future you will see a case solely on emulation and if it’s allowed. I am worried it won’t go “our way”
@@VideoGameEsoterica Yes, I only meant to point out that it was two cases, not one, though both were examples of Sony trying to squelch presumably-legal commercial PSX emulation. They were landmark cases since the emulated platform was still current.
I still had my original big box copy of VGS until I got rid of it last year. It went for a stupid-high amount because of the history… and because it was still sealed. ;) Yeah, I didn’t own a Mac and bought it anyway to support legal emulation.
Playing with fire here. Mentioning that is probably what got my previous comment ghosted or flagged for spam!
Haha tempting fates
Thanks as always buddy!
Happy to do it!
I watched the whole thing now. Thanks for your insight. Really good video, and thanks for offering to help those in need of help if/when required.
Have a nice weekend.
Happy to help. As usual though I’m catching hell for the video from certain places 😂 apparently it’s clickbait and I’m lying about what I know!
@@VideoGameEsoterica Don't worry about that. People are always gonna say that. I tend not to engage.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. I love the thumbnail.
Yes I ignore it. But it always amuses me lol
@@VideoGameEsoterica yeah definitely amusing 😃
You’re great for not just overturning it but for helping others. Love your channel sir
Thanks. But it’s a genuine offer. I’m always here to help others if I can
Thanks god, at least I found someone who is familiar with law and working on emulation! Recently my emulation Channel 'CoreLand' got removed for no reason and I'm totally sure it's a mistake from Algorithm and AI of UA-cam but my appeals were rejected. As you mentioned in video I said maybe you're my last chance and the only one who can help me bring the channel back. I joined in your discord but don't know how to contact you for further information
Let me take a peek over on discord. @ me there
To recap: I can legally emulate any game that I already own if I own the hardware that plays it as well. So I could hypothetically emulate any of my Xbox or Switch games on Steam Deck without breaking the law.
But you also said that we have to create the digital file of the game ourselves? Is that right? If so, I don't think I'm willing to do the research / obtain the resources to do that.
Yes to be on the right side of the legal copy laws you'd make your copy from your physical software. In practice however obv that's not how things get done it seems
Thank you for this video. I have a question: There are no intellectual rights laws in my country and I can pirate any game, but I have ethical objections, so I do not want to steal any game. If you buy the old game from Mega Drive games, for example, on cartridge, Is it ethically permissible for me to download the same game from ROM sites and play it on a Steam Deck device? Because I cannot extract the game from the cartridge that I purchased
Morally you are fine. Have at it
@@VideoGameEsoterica Thank you very much
Well done ! You got to push back against the abuse of the law by big corporations.
👍💪
Say you own the hardware and the software, do they need to be in working condition in order for it to be permissible to emulate them?
There is nothing specifying it no. That’s why it’s legal to have a back up of the software in the first place
But what about copy protection? I thought that even though you may be able to create a backup that breaking the copyright protection is against the law?
Not really ever been fully tested but you have the right to back your software up. So if you do it just for yourself…not really an issue
@@VideoGameEsoterica I live in the UK and the law for this in the UK is quite contradictory, on the one hand you can backup your software but then it says as long as you don't break the copy protection, which makes absolutely no sense at all. I honestly really cannot see it a problem wanting to create an image of your own game disc so that you can play it on your handheld but I do understand it being a problem if you distribute it and worse still try and sell them.
While I am not familiar with UK law in any respects…welcome to contradictions lol. They exist all over the place
@@VideoGameEsoterica Haha yes indeed, a complete mess it is. The UK law is like the US law, it is very much in line but just the terminology is slightly different. For an example of how stupid the UK law is, in late 2014 for a brief time, the government passed a law to make it legal for consumers to make a backup copy their media regardless of content, but this lasted all of 6 months when the law was overturned by the UK courts making it illegal to do so again, this was because the government didn't think the law through properly and didn't bring in any sort of levy on compensation to composers per say. This is a quite from the courts on the cause before the law got thrown out "The UK's failure to do so prompted an application for judicial review from composers society BASCA, the Musicians Union, and umbrella group UK Music. In June, Mr Justice Green agreed with the rights holders, saying the government's evidence base was so flimsy it didn't support its insistence on no-compensation." So because of this, it was illegal to back up your stuff again and it remains like this since 2015. I reality though, as you said, its never really ever been tested and I really doubt anybody would care less, let alone anybody actually following these rules. As far as I know, people have only gotten pulled up for selling this stuff especially in huge bulk. I hope the law changes again though to make something that's perfectly legal - legal again.!!!
The law is usually a full decade plus behind what humans do in society. It’s always catching up and by the time it does…it’s outdated all over again
Great video. Most people know emulation is legal and how to keep it legal but it's always good to remind people. The moment information like this becomes obscure to the masses the moment companies will pounce on our ignorance.
100%. We gotta do it right as to not give “them” a reason to pursue it
People don't realize how much emulation is going on in general. Microsoft has a built in Android emulator in Windows 11, Google relies on emulator software so people can develop apps, so on and so forth. Emulation touches the software space in all aspects, from video games to ATM software. If emulation were illegal, a whole bunch of commonly used products would be illegal. They're not porting code and using translation layers all the time.
You know they’d carve out an exemption for themselves if they tried anything though
I'm proud to say that the eBoot of Resident Evil 1996 on my PSPgo was made from my own copy of the game, lol.
I do love the GO. My preferred travel handheld still
Fan translating games seems to be okay since I don't provide files but based on what you're telling me, if I was to translate a book I own, if a court was to deem it a straight up replacement for the real thing even though I own and encourage others to own the original work then I cannot provide that translation. You sound like you know what you're talking about when it comes to copyright law and I do want to provide translations of as many of my books that simply will not get translations but it seems to be a legal grey area and it's leaning towards me being in the wrong. Correct?
From my understanding (not a lawyer)…if you are providing a translation that doesn’t exist and not selling it, you are ok-ish
I didn't happen to see if it had already been asked so apologies if it has, but how does the ownership test hold up with modification or failure of original hardware / software?
Example: suppose I want to backup software on proprietary media like the UMDs the PSP uses, so I gut the device for its reader and either damage some other component needed for it to run as a standalone device, or a home incident like a power surge or fire destroys the hardware, and that same event also damages (laser burn) or destroys the original physical copy of the software but I have a copy stored in the cloud or some other secure location
Assuming that I took every legal step, paid the money for the increasingly scarce hardware / software and, crucially, DID NOT resell them, at what point does my fair use protection start to get shaky? Or would it depend what a judge / arbitraor / jury rules based on my defense + evidence such as news articles / insurance claims paperwork / police reports?
There is no real decision on that. Nothing says if the OG console stops working it’s not allowed. So it’s very grey area
@@VideoGameEsoterica I appreciate the response, that's helpful to know. Especially with how even something as "recent" as the PSP is going on 2 decades old at this point 😬
Yeah it’s untested theory but there’s nothing to say it needs to work. Just that you need to own it
Whilst I love emulation, it has unfortunately done some harm.
I don't know if you are aware of antibiotic resistance; when you use antibiotics, any bacteria that isn't killed by the drug is essentially left to mutate and become stronger, survival of the fitness in its purest form.
Third Party Emulation is having this affect. Companies hate it so much so they'd rather create games that they can kill than allow them to be 'pirated'.
I keep having horrible anxiety attacks thinking about Fantasian by Hironobu Sakaguchi. It's an Apple Arcade exclusive and I have no apple products to play it on.
It's a single player RPG but because it's server based it's technically a live service game. Once Apple turn off Apple Arcade it's gone. And I don't mean 'hopefully someone has it on an iPad so we can dump the data' gone. I mean it's fucking GONE. No one, even the people who had the icon on their phone will be able to play it again.
Emulation can only do so much and as dubious as it is to reverse engineer a game that technically uses copyrighted material, I think we are approaching a future where gaming companies and preservationists are going to butt heads hard. Because we are entering the end times and I think we all know that the US law system isn't going to do shit to help. They don't even see planned obsolescence as unethical.
Toon Town meant nothing to Disney. It was an old failed MMO.
They killed it purely out of spite and because they could.
Emulation has allowed me to play many of my favorite games that shaped my childhood.
I can only hope that someone thinks of a way to allow our children the same experience.
Because the idea of young people growing up and not being able to experience the art that shaped their lives like I can right now with the PS1 and PS2 is sickening.
Oh yes todays kids won’t find ways to play their fav games in 30 years. It’s all server based and will all be DOA
"terrible anxiety attacks" get your ass on 😂
I have a ton of different catalogues of system ROMs on external hard drives just in case but I truly don't think anyting 20-plus years old will ever become illegal. It is just too hard to police that in any feasible way.
The thought they’d be impossible to obtain is def not feasible
An absolute legend, what a time to be alive. If you would have told little 10 year old YEETMachine3000 about what an emulator is he'd be spinning rn
Haha we’ve come a long way
Hi, thank you for your service! I got a question, what about those videos that point you in the direction of a downloadable BETA rom of an incomplete game that was never sold by the software house? Are those going to be taken down? Thanks!
I don’t know is the honest answer. Probably not?
Would dumping the roms from a legally owned item? (Example would be licensed roms from one of those mini consoles) and say take those and put them on a flash cart to play on the official hardware? Some of the terms and conditions claim its a violation to copy the roms from anything on the device its self.
An example on the mini consoles says "This product is licensed by --- and protected by copyright. Any unauthorized distribution or copying of the software contained within (with the exception of any software that has been licensed under GNU General Public License Version 3) is strictly prohibited by law."
There is no precedent disallowing the archiving of digital only files (something you can’t tangibly hold like a cartridge) and using them for your own use
*that I am aware of
@@VideoGameEsoterica gotcha, I am guessing it refers more to taking the roms and distributing them would be more the issue then
Exactly
Compilation games nowadays will use open source or pay the dev of an closed source emulator. Mame changed it's license to allow commercial use. But it's the publishers and game devs that like this, not necessarily the hardware makers
It is interesting companies hate emulation and also use it to sell us things
Quite interesting. I'm wondering. What about if I dump and extract games from my Virtual Console purchases, retro compilations on Steam, or mini consoles? Would that also fall under fair use?
Would be fine. There is no real law in the US for/against it. It hasn’t caught up in language to what modern instances are in a lot of ways
I suspect that a lot of people may think that owning he game is enough and will be surprised t hear that having the console is another requirement.
I agree that it is likely that there will be further legal challenges in future, not so much for content that is no longer produced for large scale purchase but for current systems, in particular the Nintendo Switch. Such a legal case might potentially open up an option to argue that if something is no longer available for purchase, with no loss of revenue, then in the interests of game preservation for one, that historic content could be considered fair game for copy, distribution and emulation provided that nothing of monetary value takes place in the process.
I hope a potential case would be decided that way as well as it would be difficult for a party initiating the action to prove any tangible harm
Thank you for this video, but I'm a little confused. Are you 100% certain that, in order to emulate a game that I own using a back-up copy that I've made, I need to own a legitimate, physical version of the console that it was made for? I thought that a part of that Bleem verdict was to establish that software publishers cannot limit the hardware that their software is usable on. I do not believe that emulators actually operate like the hardware that they're imitating, and thus should not be in violation of any patents or anything; isn't a Playstation emulator just an independent, third-party platform that is capable of playing Playstation software? Isn't this the precedent that allows companies like Analog and Hyperkin to do business in the daylight? Unless I misunderstand you, I do not believe that you need to own any console in order to legally emulate games unless the emulator in question requires a ripped BIOS file, right?
If you need the bios for the emulator you need to obtain it from the console for it to be on the technical side of legal. If you don’t require a bios….less so
Anyone who has a complete collection of some system want to do an experiment? Sell $1 shares. Ownership of the collection goes into a trust, all proceeds fund the trust, so upkeep, acquisition of new titles. No profit. But ownership becomes shared. I'm sure this would get drummed out of court, but if hedge funds can do it for businesses, why not games? Use their own rules against them.
That’s a very interesting proposition. I wonder
So, I'm confused. When I search if emulation is legal, it says yes. And states pretty much what this video says. But when I search how to legally dump my games everything is saying that you need to jailbreak your modern consoles in order to access the stuff you need to dump the games. Then when I search is jailbreaking game consoles legal, everything I find says Because Jailbreaking a Console requires modifying the consoles software, and that when you buy a game console you do not own the software and that you only own the hardware, it is illegal to jailbreak a game console.
So at the end of the circle of searching, emulation is legal, but jailbreaking is not, and the only way to legally dump games is to jailbreak the console. And since it is illegal to download the files you need, the entire process is messed up.
How in God's Name do I legally dump my modern game consoles games? I know your video is 7 months old but still. I just want to play my switch games on PC.
You’ve found the gray area lol. When the law doubles back on itself and seems to contradict what is permissible. Weird right?
Yeah, it's crazy.@@VideoGameEsoterica
It’ll probably remain a grey area. A hardware manufacturer who’d want to test it in court could win…or they could lose and then it would be explicitly permitted. They might not want that
Ah, so i'll just hope that the law one day no longer snakes itself and actually eats the apple. Thanks!@@VideoGameEsoterica
It’s been an interesting time for sure on that front
Quick correction: Connectix and Bleem are different companies who were subjected to different lawsuits from Sony, and the judge ruled in their favor the same in both cases.
Kind of just combined a concept for experience
Expedience
'Clean room' I believe is the term to reverse engineer something without prior knowledge of the information you are reverse engineering.
There are a few diff terms from my knowledge
One thing I would LOVE to have tested in courts, and actually clarified for once, is whether or not reverse engineering can be considered clean room whilst using things like leftover symbol data. I mean, logically, if they wanted that info gone they should have stripped the executable... and in my case (with the game I am REing for fun) it's not my fault they left symbol data that tells you what compiler was used - allowing you to look up the public documentation for the IDE to learn what debugging formats are used, and then allowing you to look up the (very open) format to figure out how to get the symbol data into a usable form.
A good question. If it’s in what they sold you presumably it would be found to be fine 🤷🏻♂️
Well done dude, Keep fighting the good fight.
I always will :)
I didn't gather "you need to own the original hardware" from the Connectix case? The entire point is that you should be able to use COMPATIBLE hardware INSTEAD OF original hardware, as long as that compatible hardware wasn't made or distributed illegally (which software emulators aren't). You DO need to have a valid license to the original software, although the courts' interpretation of the DMCA has since made enforcing fair use rights with that a lot murkier since Sony sued George Hotz for circumventing copy protection and settled out of court, and all methods of game dumping have required circumventing some kind of copy protection either on the console or on the storage medium ever since the launch of the XBox 360.
EDIT: Also, while you CAN'T point people towards eg. downloadable BIOS files, you CAN teach people HOW to extract BIOS files from original hardware (as long as the method doesn't violate the anti-circumvention portions of the DMCA, which, uh, WHO KNOWS? Mr Mario's channel still exists, for now...)
I should teach people how to dump the bios files. The whole “original hardware” is a bit tricky. So I went full cautionary on it
@@VideoGameEsoterica I would LOVE to learn any tricky bits I don't already know! Is there a "long version" of your video you would recommend, either on UA-cam or in article/blog form?
Let me look at my teaching paperwork sometime next week. I probably have some docs / interpretations on some case law. It’s been like three years since I’ve gone through it
I got into emulation with ppsspp back in 2017 and now I fully into it.Also I never thought emulation is illegal since at some point we will lose access to old physical copies and console all together
I hope it always stays legal
Thank you for all this legal info brother 👍keep it up
Happy to do it
Well I have different emulators on my using a Bluetooth 8bitdo controller but I mostly play fighting games like marvel Vs Capcom series.
Bluetooth keeping up with it all?
there is an "archive" somewhere of this stuff i'm sure
🤣
Just had a tut taken down. A link for the emu was in the description, only the emu of course. Does providing links for the emus upset UA-cam? I appealed it
And that’s all you did? Honestly in the future don’t link it. People are smart. They can google. But technically as long as the emu isn’t supplying files you shouldn’t be supplying them I’d lean on that. But you already appealed so I don’t know what sort of language / justification you used in the appeal.
@@VideoGameEsoterica Yeah just a clean build of the new Triforce emu. I kept the appeal shot and sweet. Just said, 'nothing malicious has been provided'
Ahh Nintendo. There’s a reason I won’t touch much of their stuff for these tutorials. They are vicious. You appealed correctly. Will you win? Zero clue. If you want upload the video to google drive and email me a link. I’ll watch it and confirm you are on the right side of the rules
Will stop providing links to anything in the future. Lets do the dance
Yeah I just say “you are smart. You found this video. You can find the rest”
Great video as always. I'll have to watch the rest later.
"Sony fought VGE,
VGE won"
I did in fact win. So now I want to help others win!
I wish copyrights would expire after 25-30 years. Instead it seems things only get worse. Also, that company that is going to take legal action to change the rules... is there any doubt that it'll be Nintendo?
I wouldn’t say expire but maybe loosen.
@@VideoGameEsoterica It definitely needs to expire a lot sooner, IMO.
I’m so split on this
Wow, looking at the state of own Sony PS3 emulation nowadays that left pretty far behind RPCS3, we knew that one thing for sure is we cannot count on corporation to do their job properly... Thats sad and shameful at the same time because they will always screw emulation scene, the only hope of preservation effort...
Gamers are def preserving the history better than the companies
I found your video cause Mr. Sujiano recommended this if in case we want to post videos using emulators. It's really informative hoping emulation will truly be legal in the future.
Cause honestly, emulation is much more convenient than the real hardware.
Welcome! Yes plenty of people find emulation more convenient, especially in the days of LCD tv. I use it as much as I use original hardware…and I have a LOT of hardware
Emulation is legal however, don’t most end user license agreements, prohibit backup copies of games onto another device? Can the manufacture take action against me if I violate the agreement.
The US govt allows for back ups. That’s all that matters. EULA does not override laws on the books.
At least your doing it much better than others who just promote piracy and illegal methods.
I give you credit for doing this correctly.
I appreciate it :)
I love that emulation is legal, but I can't help but feel like legal emulation is largely restricted to those who are rich/well off enough to buy retro video games at scalpers prices in order to have proof of ownership, and those who have good tech skills. It's very easy for a person lacking those 2 benchmarks to want to skip a few legal steps and very easy for those who can't or are afraid to to start thinking that legal emulation is a rich person's game.
I know companies are wanting to make emulation more restrictive/illegal, but hopefully there are less restrictions in the future.
That’s why it’s important when voting to know what the people you vote for stand for. Laws around technology are going to be very important in the coming decades and will affect us all
Thanks for the legal info on this!
Happy to do it!
A fisher teaching you how to fish, will feed you for life, a fisher who gives you a fish will go to jail. 😂😂
Hahahaha
this is an awesome channel i like the arcade games but i still want to race you you in Daytona USA lol.
Haha come to Chicago. We can have a race
lol probably not going to happen. I would love too dont get me wrong. Most likely over the net in some form on an emulator.
It’s unfortunate netplay isn’t a thing for most of these emulators
well if your ever in Toronto Ontario Canada let me know lol i do have some best times to compare pick the track and ill let u know my best all in good fun though.
👍
Anybody in europe know of any similar legal precedent? I believe Germany has laws that forces the mame devs to hold on to pcbs forever for a game that mame code bypasses the protection on.
Also, I am baffled why people are permitted to link to the infamous "update all" for mister? It's ok to link to a script that downloads the roms and bios files but not link to the files themselves?
Europe I can’t help on sadly. But someone knows
Thanks for sharing
Always happy to
UA-cam need to look at the scammers & bottom-feeders they allow to advertise on their platform. Give the content creators (who make the platform worthwhile) a break.
I’d tend to agree but those with the big numbers kinda set the guidelines. My channel is small in comparison
That good and all but even if you play a pirate copy from a game if people don't know about it I don't think is any problem
For example if dawnload a ps2 emulator and game on the indernt even if this game is a pirate copy
If competition don't know about it I don't think I have any issues
That’s one school of thought yes
Oh yeah, I remember the Bleem era
Those were wild times. Felt like magic
Indeed. Back when even NES emulators weren't always smooth. We've come SO far
I mean the fact PS3 is working well these days is impressive considering how much of a mess that system was with CELL
This might be the case in the US (or with UA-cam) but do you know what the deal is in e.g. Germany? There's no common law here (unlike the UK or US).
No unfortunately my knowledge in any area outside the US is just in music / film / television licensing and athlete contracts
I only play games i own. (I used to own most of the games including GameCube games and PS2 games)
And some people are totally like that :$
:) I mean
@@VideoGameEsoterica True
Lots of comments already but if you've ever played a rom and didn't own the hard copy you can sing along with me. "Yar har, fiddle de dee. Being a pirate is alright to be. Do what you want 'cause a pirate is free. You are a pirate!"
Lolol
If they truly are so hellbent on removing emulators. then there would be a couple of steps that the companies themselves URGENTLY have to start with. that would be GETTING RID of BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY AND THE ENTIRETY OF NSO as the only way they can actually even accomplish this IS BY EMULATION.
I’m sure they’d carve out an exemption that rights holders could still use them
Emulation always be legal. Use lincenses that you dont own is piracy. Two different things that PPL sometimes mix.
Re: if you sell the game you must destroy the file.
Question: if we destroy the physical game (e.g. threw it away years ago), can we keep the file?
Re: I can't tell you where to get archived software...
Question: So... you can't tell people that the internet archive archives software?... like as an unrelated statement?
Re: I knew how to defend myself.
Question: what did you say?
I don’t believe there is any language that specified if the original copy is destroyed. Bit of a grey area. I might be able to say that but its easier for me not to
@@VideoGameEsoterica Thanks. I appreciate that you have to be vague in your response. That's a helpful perspective all the same though, and I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions at all, given their nature. 🙂
The laws are vague in and of themselves a lot
“Your Honor, it's a digital file, therefore it's just numbers, I can't own numbers, therefore it's all ok ”
Problem is does the judge even understand the underlying technology? So many are so behind the times
@@VideoGameEsoterica Yeah, and even if they do understand some aspects of technology, you'd need some really capable lawyers to drive home the main points of emulation.
It’s a tricky needle to thread for sure
@@VideoGameEsoterica Well, the events that are to follow have been set in motion, all we can do is just hope for the best I suppose.
Great job, dude. I don't know what else to say
Haha thanks. Just a topic I know a weird amount about based on my work history / teaching history
@@VideoGameEsoterica
It's always been the case that 'normal' consumers get punished by corporations draconian decisions which would never hurt the hacker/modder scene anyway
Pretty much. Little guy loses always
is a Miyoo mini device illegal?
So long as it doesn’t come with games than no
I plan on purchasing an emulation device. And live streaming my emulation device. The games that I will live stream I will own physically. I don't know how to respond if I get any reaction from UA-cam. Can you help me Have a pre-prepared response?
You wont get a reaction whatsoever
@@VideoGameEsoterica do I need to label in the description or in the video that I own the game physically
Nope. This is really only applicable to when you are teaching someone HOW to emulate. If you are just playing on it then it doesn’t really affect anything
@@VideoGameEsoterica thank you so much for the fast response. I hope you have a wonderful day.
You too 👍
Nintendo of Japan. Is so anti this or that. Over the intellectual property of pirates downloading the entire database whereas others could get in trouble for downloading one file. The problem... Roms are the official or finished of products. The developers referring to the publishers who cheated, ought to be sued for attacking the general public of gamers after they upload the files of the corporation anyway.
At one point, their used to be a internet experience without having to pay, but thank you Japan for making it cost, and people having to go through three providers just to play a single game series. Thank you pirates and idiots for cheating the games, making unfair for people like regular users to play a single game.
Though the situation is a matter of corporate cost in relation to such. It should be illegal to download in any country. Point blank simple if they are going to use the copyright act that nobody really listens to. Notice these are strictly laws prohibiting the US from having technology.
We helped you build it, so we will take it from you who stole from us. - others would say.
European Union, Russia, Germany, China, Korea, you name it whoever hacked this company or those who worked for it.
As their access was the Wii, WiiU, or programming to that of the switch they don't even want to touch break of encryption with, because it will break the system - Oh wait, Smea of 3ds.
Note... As one who emulates the console or knows that the 3ds was a ruin to nintendo based on encryption. The factor is that of Smea, to that of Gary Bowser, and others like Team Twizzlers, GBA tempt, the big N, ought to be sued for hacking aside from emulation building with that of malicious codes provided in firmware updates and monitoring by the big corporation itself, thus relating to China or their "so called private" ip of Japan.
Others like us wanted to complete a series and have based on the fact that developers were idiots who put out the tools for public to test, which is a no-no. XD
The tech industry understands how it has mistreated the US counterpart through that of Russia and more illegal pirates referred to of the company and the misrepresentation to that of Germany. But I will not list sources besides that of their wiidatabase site, whereas the others such as github download using the official databases.
If Nintendo were so protective of its intellectual copyright stupidity, it would pay each back for every game that could be emulated. And this company would comply with the aspect of security aside from it being an industry of entertainment. The problem is that they effect the retail markets.
Nobody discusses the bull shit of legal nintendo porn ( which is illegal to begin with to that of its dark past and that of fake EULA agreements under section XXX of whatever article as to comply with the company for a non-disclosure agreement. Hence the developer site to that of 16 year olds and older hacked the business. As learned by others then you got your copycats. Which you must be older than 18 or so. So also they broke the console with just a paperclip and uploads of switch on firmwares and discord.
But leave it up to others for the switch scene, and more as mentioned by ROMsLab.
The people are crooks, absolute, and need to put the stuff to build back in the archives where it belongs. So fuck you Japan, for stealing the Wii to Wii U. = called access. Oh wait, forget encryption, 3ds and server the switch to that of the PS-Sony.
The Pokemon company also should be sued but because it is a trademark of the corporation, to binary and hex, it cannot be along with the community that is not so much a community as rogue.
Thus, Nintendo relies on binary and hex to that of its firmware to keep products secure aside from others being rogue with the code or owning a copy of their game to that of shareholders. The factors that the hash verifies signifies a game can be played legally or illegit. So if one were a pirate like retropie, and that of other people, downloaders should have more benefits than the uploader, though the company would like to be stupid with permissions.
- Example Bethsada to that of Skyrim or promoting a game that is non-finished, or that of Nexus community. Perhaps then Gamefreak would not be so stupid to give a person who used to understand the concepts rather than him a lawsuit. As that of business and much, others use torrents which is the only way to get switch game versions. Aside from much, Nintendo is after emulation, so basically the company would screw itself in the ass and forget the public for intellectual rights.
Note, some of us built the system for you, so we can break it. And To those of the European Union who got games free compared to the regular public that uploads it... Nintendo and others give the middle finger, yet I do not defend the ethics of pornography shit to that of movies based off of real video games that others like me have to pay for products in the consumer market, and it gets old as if this corp has been around for 100 years. It is about time for gamefreak and others to retire, unless they want to be stupid.
Unless remakes are not remakes but at least a finished series or product.
It is about preservation to some people are just plain greedy. But the preservation aspect comes at a mutual respect among pirates and developers alike though it is the uploader who should be charged more than a downloader.
Nobody strangely discusses why Roms should be legal. Well start discussing the legal as to why they should be. Because the ROM is read only memory. Others like TOSEC and retired tools, built the roms, but people cannot even do that anymore and some of the tools are overly outdated. So there is a relience on the hash to keep them updated. If something cannot be played, that is how in the world do you block a hash, and that is no on the efforts of Nintendo's doing to coders in the developers sector to protect their products.
That is the problem with this company, to it as an entertainment industry rather than a technical partner.
Roms, technically are legal but it depends on the effectiveness to situation of the rom and what you plan to do with it. Aside from the fact that you should not put an android rom or OS on the switch and be an idiot like Team Xecuter.
Otherwise, teach people how to make it again. = Their own ROM.
What if the console and/or Disc was damaged? do you still have the right to emulate?
Yep
No. If your legal copy is broken you have the right to replace it with another "legal copy". Roms or isosare illegal copies.
@@niemand7811 wut??
@@VideoGameEsoterica This was an interesting question and I believe this answer makes sense because the whole idea is that the physical copy is a license right? If so if you still have it - even if it's say a scratched disc you'd still have the license then I suppose so emulating it isn't all bad but that also doesn't entitle you to downloading it. I say this one was interesting because I have some old PS2 games I'm looking to dump and the discs are a bit scuffed so I figure I need to look for someplace that does disc buffing. I presume that'd maybe fix up any read errors that prevent it from being archived.
The license does not specify the disc / cart condition so it’s a grey area but most of this is
It's strange to have something available freely for more than a decade and then suddenly decide it's illegal. It's unfair to the users. They should have made a serious move to stop it sooner rather than do this.
Like I said in the video…my guess is someone tried to change emulation laws in the future
@@VideoGameEsoterica
Like Back To The Future?
I loved the early days of emulation. I remember being on my PC at midnight on the filemirrors site trying to get the latest NeoRageX rom. MISTer is exciting like that was.
It’s a whole new wave of emulation and it’s fun to see it happen in real time
So it is illegal to install a rom even if I own a physical copy
Nope. Perfectly legal according to case law..as of 2/5/23. It’s just illegal to show people direct sites of where to get roms or bios files.
No. The opposite
exactly
ok thanks just wanted to make sure what i was doing was not illegal
👍
Cool bro
👍
This is one of the reasons I REALLY don’t like people calling remasters and rereleases “preservation”. Corporations do not preserve our culture and art, you do!
For film, remasters of old prints that are scanned and cleaned up and presented at a higher resolution than available before def count as preservation. But totally diff medium
Like recently Death Wish was remastered in 4K with a new transfer and restoration. That to me counts as preservation
@@VideoGameEsoterica As someone who collects boutique horror Blurays from places like Vinegar Syndrome, I kind of agree, but I consider those remasters in their own right. It's still up regular consumers to archive those restorations digitally. Especially as those restorations can go out of print pretty quickly for lots of reasons. And due to rights holders, we never know when a release of a film is the last release it will ever get.
I had so many out of print dvds at one point years ago and a couple hundred criterion collection discs. I ended up parting with them though. Kinda regret it and kind of don’t
You’re a saint.
I do what I can :)
Can I emulate and play a Nintendo switch game on my computer. If I own a Nintendo switch and the physical game.
Yes basically
"I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on UA-cam"
I specialize in bird law
KDE desktop. Good Choice.
Great Video. Very nice insights...maybe you should apply this sort of logic to free speech/self censorship as well ;)
Haha not as much my area of expertise in law/teaching
@@VideoGameEsoterica I suppose you know what I'm referring to?
Yes I do. I still stand by cutting that 5 seconds
@@VideoGameEsoterica and I will stand by annoying you about it lol
Haha fair enough. You are fun about it
Great video. If only Nintendo wasn't so anal about their old games...
They are the worst offender by far
The funny thing is that they will lock them behind a monthly paywall or put all these games on a mini system, rather than just put them on a card so we can buy them on a Switch.
Companies should just add their first party back catalogue to a Netflix like system. People will pay the $$ to access it all
Yeah even if it wasn't Legal. Good Luck trying to go after people making copy's of stuff they already technically own.
Very true
I've been chatting with you on here and reddit
What do you do for a living? 😂
Actually I'll ping you on reddit, I want to see if you can help me with something
Filmmaker / director of photography
So rom sites are illegal ？
Yes. Totally.
@@niemand7811 wonder why they don't target them?
Yeah especially for switch, the build that big of a database and so quick to shut down a website, without ROMs people have no choice to buy the game?
Another point I think you fail to make. Some Games and Hardware are "Lost Media" you cannot get the hardware anymore or Arcade games. Games which are like 6K or 9K. Like really?!? Now if you are Legal able to get these games in the store still or Digitally. I would say that is "illegal". For example if you can get the game off the Switch. You cannot download it illegally. Fans will continue to make Fan Games and You or Nintendo won't be able to do anything about it.
It’s not that I “failed” to make it. It’s that it’s not the topic of this video
Sorry hit send before finishing. Abandonware isn’t relevant to the main purpose of the video but I do agree that lost / abandoned media is a diff story
@@VideoGameEsoterica Okay then what about Hardware costing way too much money from a person able to get from a Collector then?
Sorry not exactly sure what you are asking?
@@VideoGameEsoterica I am asking "Then what about Arcade Systems or Hardware which you cannot get hands on or is way too expensive to get.. for example Galaxian 3 Attack of Zolgear vs Dragon's Lair?" Dragon's Lair you can find widely available. Galaxian 3 attack of the Zolgear you cannot get or even find a playable copy and even if you did would be way over priced.
Emulators can not be illegal. They contain NO BIOS or game roms. This is clearly a click bait video.
Lol def not a click bait video. Did you even watch it?
@@VideoGameEsoterica No he was asleep when it was uploaded and viewed.
Lol
That... isn't what clickbait means. There are people who don't seem to understand, or get, that emulation in of itself isn't illegal, hence why videos like this (and discussions on places like Twitter) keep happening/keep being necessary.
From my understanding nintendo are the worst with this they hate that you can run your switch games on the steam deck and will go after you with copyright strikes on videos
That is why you won’t see anything remotely involving that as a tutorial from me. Even if I know I am in the right…it’s not a fight I will be picking