I dont play Pathfinder (I mostly run a Homebrew D&D game), BUT OMG the lore for this setting is AMAZING. The amount of stuff I keep incorporating into my world is astonishing. It's refreshing to have such a sprawling and in-depth world. Its obvious whoever created the setting gave it a lot of thought. Thanks for the great videos
4 days ago I had never heard of Pathfinder, never even played any sort of tabletop roleplaying game, yet my youtube for some reason suggested one of your videos. 4 days later I've bingewatched every single video on your channel and I absolutely love it. Not only is the world and creatures itself very in dept and fascinating, but you my friend have such a natural and smooth way of narrating and relaying information that it's been an absolute joy to discover this universe through your channel. Thank you!
Wow! If you really discovered Pathfinder through my channel then I can only say you're welcome! Find a game group online or in person, or if you don't have time for that pick one of the Owlcat games ;-)
It is always a delight to see more videos from you. You're doing a fantastic job, and I wish you the best of success. Have a fantabulous day everyone! Thanks for the vid.
Honestly loving your channel. There are so many forgotten realms lore channels (which I do love, I'm a lore slut) but I could never find any pathfinder lore series beyond maybe 1 or 2 videos by a channel dedicated to other things. It's great to see this, and it's a setting I have found fascinating since playing the Owlcat studio PC games.
i only enterd the Pathfinder universe with the release of the videogame Wrath of the Righteous and i must say you are the Best Lore channel for Pathfinder that i have found and 1 of the 2 channels i have notifications enabled for the other being Arch.
Wow there is so much great content in this one! If only we could have a few extra lifetimes to play paladins or clerics that follow these archons. SO MUCH FLAVOR
I've watched many of your videos to get a grasp of the lore surrounding this great game while I'm currently running our group's first Pathfinder experience in the Abomination Vaults, and it's been a really good experience so far. I'm glad to help push this video (and all the other great videos of yours) up for the UA-cam algorithms!
The illustrations here really highlight a problem I have with Pathfinder’s Outsiders: there’s no consistency in the design. There are anthropomorphic Outsiders in all Celestial groups but also more abstract looking ones plus Winged Humanoids. Why not just pick a them and be consistent? Like say, the Archons are abstract like the Lanterns, Wheels, and Bastions. The angels are Humanoids with wings, Agathions are anthropomorphic animals, and Azatas . . . I don’t know, but folks would at least be able to tell one from the other without meta gaming and checking the stat box! Great video by the way.
Honestly a lot of that is legacy D&D stuff that you're observing. I definitely agree that PF2, especially with Remaster coming out, has a real opportunity to tighten up its design choices so you could easily visually recognize the difference between angels, archons, agathions and azatas. Agathions of the 4 seem the most distinctive right now, but the other three are all kind of mixed.
16:54 Olheon sounds like a good God to protect National Constitutions. 20:40 Winlas: Like Olheon, but for Church instead of State. 21:48 Zohls: The godess of investigation and due-prosess?
Yeah Olheon is definitely a protector of constitutions. She's a protector of power structures in general, so if the nation in question is a democracy she'll watch over the nation and ensure that the correct democratic process is followed as per the constitution; but if the nation is a monarchy she can be called upon by her clergy to determine who the right successor is as per the nations laws of hereditary rule. Interestingly she generally won't judge a nation for their choice of government, but whatever the laws of the land are she'll ask her clergy to ensure the lawful ruler is named. She's kind of the archetypical archon and she's also the one depicted in the cover image I selected for this video.
The Empyreal lords, there are so many of them. Its a perfectly good excuse just to grab any notionally good god from earth's religious history and be like he's (or she) an empyreal lord. And archons are just cool. I use them a lot.
Binging all the content, love it! Only thing I can think of is some light instrumental music behind an already calming and soothing voice, thank you for making these!!
Thanks for the tip! I've been experimenting with some music I've been struggling to find the balance and not have it to interfere with audio that's already kind of dodgy because I don't have a good place to record without picking up ambient street sound.
Most of it is. As per usual, if no official art is provided I find approximates to keep my video pretty visual. Just a quick scan-through tells me the following did not have art: Eldas, Falayna, Kelinahat, Kroina, Smiad and Winlas.
@@Sjaddix You're not the first to make this request. For this kind of video its not so hard, but for my region deep dives its actually a ton of work because there's a lot of overlapping art and motion and the weekly production schedule I'm trying to keep is already a killer as is. 😞
@@TheMythKeeper To be fair, I am a tad biased because I am playing a Dwarf Warpriest of Angradd in an AV campaign I'm in. So the Dwarf Pantheon is of particular interest to me. 😉
@@HeathenHammer8 If you haven't yet, check out my Dwarf Ancestry guide. I do talk a little bit about the dwarf pantheon there, with a terrible hand-drawn guide to the gods to boot!
I love your planar videos in general, but this one was more enjoyable than I anticipated since strict Lawful Good mindsets tend to be among my least liked. I appreciated the range of interpretation and practicality that differs from the often "simplistic" Lawful Good of other settings. In DnD's Planescape cosmology LG forces usually have a singular outlook on how to do things properly and associated beings are often painfully predictable (if very powerful). Clearly Pathfinder chose to diversify, and as such Kelinahat is my favorite in this outing because she represents an alternative to what some call a "Lawful Stupid" mindset. Any reasonable, intelligent commander would acknowledge the value of foreknowledge and stealth in achieving victory and preventing harm. Given Kelinahat's nature I'm sure her network has a stricter doctrine of behavior than most spy circles, but even so it's pleasingly nuanced that she's found a way to adopt subtlety and even deception in service of Heaven. My guess is some other Lords disdain her methods while begrudgingly acknowledging her usefulness. Similarly, I liked Svarozic's acknowledgement that Lawful Goodness hasn't been perfected and innovation is still required. It shows a flexibility that Lawful approaches sometimes lack and I think it can still be Lawful to want specific laws amended via approved processes. You mention briefly that Archons increase in strength around mortals who adhere to their principal virtue. That's news to me but I like that mechanic since it helps explain why planar beings are almost universally motivated to convert mortals even if it costs services or resources. A common criticism of planar beings' behavior (especially when heavy-handed) is that it doesn't make sense since it alienates potential followers or harms their own cause. Often this is explained away by innate nature and inability to act otherwise. Sometimes it's argued that mere exposure to a specific alignment can cause more souls will go to the associated plane after death. Your described increase in potency as more mortals fervently believe adds value and motive to actions that would seem counterproductive otherwise. The demon who kills one of its followers may impress witnesses into fear/belief and thus increase it's personal power more than the dead low-level cultist would have. Finally, some Lords seem to champion conflicting views and it would be interesting to know how those Lords interact. For instance: Ghenshau's love of simplicity even at the price of ignorance vs. Zohl's determined investigation of minutiae because she believes little details define existence. Winlas believes in following ceremony to the letter and values staunch tradition whereas Svarozic believes pursuing perfection requires adjusting old concepts or adopting completely new methods. Do the Lords assist in ventures that violate their core principles, simply agree to stay out of each other's way, or do they actually work counter to each other? It feels like when alignment is removed it will leave some of the Lords covered in your videos with very little to unify them ideologically.
Thanks so much for the support Colin! You've really picked out some of the reasons I'm a big supporter of Paizo and the Pathfinder game in general. It seems like they zig a lot when they could easily zag. This is a pretty varied pantheon considering there all of the same 'type' and they are all technically LG in the old alignment system. As for how the Lords interact, I think its much like people. Often, they disagree, but when confronted with the force of Hell or the Abyss they will tend to find they agree more than they disagree and so they set their differences aside to advance their collective agenda. I'm also sure that some of the Empyreal Lords are quite close, as allies or even just friends, whereas other Empyreal Lords find each other annoying or frustrating or hold any number of other opinions about them. Even on the plane of Heaven, the perspectives are not a monolith.
@@TheMythKeeper You are welcome to the support my friend! I continue to appreciate your videos and your level of community involvement is top-notch so you deserve it. As to interactions, you make a good point. When choosing between demons vs. annoyances, it only makes sense that the logical, communal, and good Lords would reach compromise. Given the nature of Heaven and the Lords (either Lawful Good or focused on organization and community post-alignment), as a GM I'd utilize the Grand Court of Heaven on the administrative 6th Layer. There the Lords could debate their positions in cases of disagreement with all parties agreeing to abide by the rulings so as to avoid wasteful conflict.
You’re work never fails to impress. Great work! Personally, I would like to come back as a archon in Golarion’s universe. They’re righteously metal! 🤟🏻
uh, I never expected to have my one question about the WotR video game answered here, I just thought I had missed something, but nope, it all makes sense now, I lacked lore knowledge, the thing about being a chaos player in most trpg is that I neglect lawful good lore...Amber's "crow" now makes sense; Andoletta.
@@ZoneofA Mythwatchers Club! I have a membership program now on UA-cam. People get access to videos 4 weeks early if they join. Join button is right by the video, although I hear that maybe it doesn't always work on mobile. 😕
As someone with a cleric build in mind, I'm curious to see how the PF2e religon details will change after the remaster. With the cosomolgies structured so heavily around alignment, its removal seems like it would be very impactful. Do you think you'll do NEW lore videos for things impacted by the remaster, similar to the way you've acknowledged the changes from PF1e to PF2e, or canonical changes from some Adventure Paths? I'm sure it's hard to say for sure now, since we don't know the full extent of the changes, but I think new videos would be interesting. All your lore videos are great, btw!
I think yes, but I won't redo all of these videos, I'll just do a single video that talks in the broad strokes around how the changes affect the cosmology.
So glad to see Pathfinder paid attention to the three alignment sub-types of Celestials. I loved that idea when they were introduced in D&D, and sad to see them more or less forgotten about as it trod on, so this is all super fun to me. I'm curious, where did you find the art of Falayna? It's really good, I may use it for a VTT.
None of these guys trigger me in the way some of the Emperial Lords from Narvana do, but I am sceptical with the "lawfull" half of some of their "lawfull-good" allignments. ... Actually, I've been noticing a pattern, that PF's definition of true-netural, (and by extention all the other allignments,) leans abit more towards chaotic-neutral than D&D's definition. ... i.e: Ghenshau, Kelinahat, Kroina, Svarozic, and Tanagaar, and maybe Olheon, all seem debatably neutral-good to me; all for differnet reasons. ... Kelinahat and Svarozic I would allmost call chaotic-good.
I'm definitely curious to hear your take as we get through the rest of the Empyreal Lord series. One thing I'm very excited about with Remaster is that PF is abandoning the alignment system. In my view, for a long time now, its seemed clear that the difference between Heaven, Nirvana and Elysium was never about "lawfulness" but much more about values. Heaven is oriented around rules for a good society, Nirvana is about harmony with the environment, Elysium is about the individual. I hope they lean into this a bit more and spell it out more clearly once they're unshackled from the conventional alignments.
@@TheMythKeeperpersonally like allingment as a concept, but I agree that it can be confusing that "law" and "chaos" don't allways refer to literal law or chaos. ... As far as I can tell, law leans towards conservitive principles, (like comminity, justice, tradition, protection authority, etc) and chaos leans towards liberal principles. (like individualism, freedom, change, risk-taking, playing by your own rules, etc) (but not allways.) ... On the good side you have the most benifitial versions of those ideas, and on the evil side you have courruptions of those ideas.
@@TheMythKeeper I'm kind of dreading what their interpritation of chaotic good is, tbh. ... In case your wondering, my irl allignment is true-neutral. My ideal allingmnet irl is bordering netral-good and lawfull-good, but as a GM I try to be lawfull-neutral. ... P.S, it also seems interesting that PF's lore is more chaotic, but its mechanics is more lawfull.
@@agsilverradio2225 Interestingly I almost see it the opposite way, maybe because I'm European. LG in my mind means solidarity comes from the community (the state if you will). All people are taken care of because the society is built to care for all people. CG means solidarity comes from individuals. Be kind but essentially live and let live.
I have never heard of bastion archon or that archons embody virtues where can I find this stuff? All this stuff should be in chronicles of the righteous I wish they gave it and concordance of rivals the same wealth of detail they gave the book of the damned
I'm not sure if this is what you mean by technology, but I will do a Deep Dive video on Numeria which is the weird country that has a crashed spaceship in it in the near future. That one should deal with something interesting tech. So will my Alkenstar deepdive which should come a little later.
The sad truth is that this lore is really, really good, but aside from players or DMs who make characters that specifically worship the Empyreal Lords, the massive majority of them are irrelevant to the lore. This is a pity because as beings who have the same tier of influence and power as demon lords and archdevils, many of whose cults and selves feature as prominent antagonists in various APs. Major and even minor gods at times take the spotlight, too, making the Empyreal Lords further neglected, especially at tables that want the stakes to be as high as possible. I would have liked an Empyreal Lord involved directly in the Worldwound, or even an Empyreal Lord who is sick of the evil they are seeing and does their own planar invasion into an evil country. Archons especially would be complicated enemies and allies to have as the PCs have to wrestle between the freedom and agency of the people versus the collective good the archons can do past the point of conflict. Or perhaps there is something holding them back, and there could be an adventure dedicated to helping them have greater access to the material plane to do the work. Just wish we could act on these officially.
The degree to which the Empyreal Lords are involved with your games is largely up to you as a GM. My approach tends to be to involve the celestial figures - whether good, evil, full god, demigod or something else even - based on what my PCs are playing. So if someone is a Cleric of Abadar in my game, then Abadar will be relevant to the game, but if someone is running an Inquisitor of Zohls then you best believe Zohls is making an appearance at some point.
@@agsilverradio2225 - I don't know if all Azatas feel this way, but there are definitely Elysium deities (like Gorum) that do not like the Aeons or Axiomites one little bit. I think we'll see when we get to that video that chaos or freedom is more important than good, but for others good is more important and chaos is a secondary value.
Ghenshau, Kelinahat, Kroina, and Svarozic are good but not lawfull: Change my mind. ... - Ghenshau is too sceptical of civilization to call lawfull, but not enoguh to call him chaotic. (he may have been LG at one time, but now he's NG.) Kroina is too focused on following your conchess, rather than specific prestated principles or religious laws. -Svarozic is more pro changes in tradition than I would label as "lawfull." -Kroina may be helping the good of civilization, but she uses deception to do so.
I may be sidestepping your ask here a little bit, so instead of convincing you that these deities are Lawful (PF is moving away from alignment anyway) I'll try to persuade you that they are community-oriented. Ghenshau teaches simplicity. If a community tries to understand everything and especially if they lean hard into technology and overworking they will ultimately be a less happy community. Obviously one can take Ghenshau's lessons as personal ones, but I always see Archons as taking a communal lens. His view is that simpler, quieter more pleasant communities are better than communities focused on growth, expansion and constant improvement. Its an interesting take, but I do think he fits in this pantheon. Kelinahat is answered in your question. Yes she uses deception (and she is uniquely the only Archon to be comfortable with lies and falsehoods) but her when she gives her word she keeps it and more importantly all her actions are in service to the good of the society. She's a great and complicated archon and a great choice for an interesting player character to follow. Svarozic - How can Ghenshau and Svarozic be on your list? They are opposites. One is pro-simple societies the other is pro-advancement. Surely at least one should be an archon. Well for me Svarozic disagrees with Ghenshau on what makes for a good society, but ultimately his goal is the same. Betterment of the community. Kroina - Honestly you got me here. Kroina feels like an Agathion to me. Her teachings are more centered on the self. Interestingly I do think that Kroina is about relationships though. She teaches to trust your instincts when it comes to _other people_ as well. This maybe pushes her to the archon category.
Honestly in some cases your position is probably the most logical, but there are ways to make them work as Lawful Good (LG) archons: - Ghenshau is a tough one but here goes. If you want to interpret his views in an LG way, he believes that overcomplication leads to chaos. If you wake up for your workday and try to do a dozen things at once, you are less likely to be organized than if you focus on completing one task at a time. A society will be most productive if arranged so that people lead simple lives with a single clear path to accomplishment. Also, you don't need to worry about knowledge outside that which helps your assigned role - a farmer doesn't need to know how to be a swordsmith, cleric, or administrator and devoting time to those professions would only make him a less effective farmer. Thus to our farmer ignorance and simplicity is the path to productivity and healthy participation in society. - Kelinahat could be LG in the same way an undercover officer is. In the real world, if an agent infiltrates a terrorist organization or breaks into a phone at the request of legally established authorities it could reasonably be argued they are serving the law. If I was in a game with her network involved I'd argue any deception is used exclusively to counter evil/chaos and there would be a strict code that legally limits behavior (i.e. rules of war/engagement). Agents would have specific assignments with specific goals as opposed to being wanderers reporting on whatever they happened across. - Kroina is another tough one. My best attempt is to equate her mindset to a school of thought in science (especially physics) known as determinism. Determinism states if you completely understand all the information in a "system" then you can tell everything about it's past and future (including future actions). Determinism asserts that predictable natural laws govern every interaction/decision so any surprises indicate that you didn't know everything involved, not any inherent unpredictability in the universe. Mythkeeper says Kroina believes "instincts are truth's precursors", so I'd argue she believes instinctual understanding of the laws of the universe allow one to skip a lot of deliberation. When a Pathfinder ranger suddenly feels a sense of impending danger, it's because their training allows them to understand the information in the "system" of their surroundings and recognize potential danger. They aren't sensing danger at random times, they are utilizing the laws they've learned to leap past conscious thought straight to truth in a process that mimics divination. - Svarozic could easily be lawful. It's not unlawful to want to amend existing laws if it's done by approved processes. Svarozic could argue that LG perfection has yet to be realized and thus changes or even new ideas should be examined and potentially adopted in a controlled manner. In real life, if a member of government introduces a new bill or amendment they are proposing change via lawful methods.
Considering that even lesser divinities can control their physical shape and appearance, someone whose default form is 11 feet tall says something about how they like to appear. Maybe Winlas would show bigger to a giant worshipper.
I dont play Pathfinder (I mostly run a Homebrew D&D game), BUT OMG the lore for this setting is AMAZING. The amount of stuff I keep incorporating into my world is astonishing. It's refreshing to have such a sprawling and in-depth world. Its obvious whoever created the setting gave it a lot of thought. Thanks for the great videos
You're very welcome! Thanks for watching!
Respectfully, why run D&D over Pathfinder?
I'm quite impressed by pathfinder lore. Thanks MythKeeper for making those guides.
Glad you like them!
4 days ago I had never heard of Pathfinder, never even played any sort of tabletop roleplaying game, yet my youtube for some reason suggested one of your videos.
4 days later I've bingewatched every single video on your channel and I absolutely love it. Not only is the world and creatures itself very in dept and fascinating, but you my friend have such a natural and smooth way of narrating and relaying information that it's been an absolute joy to discover this universe through your channel.
Thank you!
Wow! If you really discovered Pathfinder through my channel then I can only say you're welcome! Find a game group online or in person, or if you don't have time for that pick one of the Owlcat games ;-)
It is always a delight to see more videos from you. You're doing a fantastic job, and I wish you the best of success. Have a fantabulous day everyone! Thanks for the vid.
Thank you! You too!
Honestly loving your channel. There are so many forgotten realms lore channels (which I do love, I'm a lore slut) but I could never find any pathfinder lore series beyond maybe 1 or 2 videos by a channel dedicated to other things. It's great to see this, and it's a setting I have found fascinating since playing the Owlcat studio PC games.
Its a great world, and I'm biased but honestly a little more interesting with a little more specificity of design than Realms or Greyhawk.
i only enterd the Pathfinder universe with the release of the videogame Wrath of the Righteous and i must say you are the Best Lore channel for Pathfinder that i have found and 1 of the 2 channels i have notifications enabled for the other being Arch.
Thanks for the kind comment!
I suppose Tabris and his 3 books deserve their own video in the end
His 3 books are getting much more than their own video! 4 videos for the empyreal lords, 4 for content from the book of the damned as well.
Very professional and well put together lore videos. Likely the best pathfinder lore master on UA-cam.
Wow, thank you so much for the kind words!
The divine archons!
Great video friend! :)
Awesome! Thank you for the support!
Wow there is so much great content in this one! If only we could have a few extra lifetimes to play paladins or clerics that follow these archons. SO MUCH FLAVOR
Couldn't agree more!
I've watched many of your videos to get a grasp of the lore surrounding this great game while I'm currently running our group's first Pathfinder experience in the Abomination Vaults, and it's been a really good experience so far. I'm glad to help push this video (and all the other great videos of yours) up for the UA-cam algorithms!
Thanks Robo! Happy to hear you've found the vids useful as your run your first PF game :-)
The illustrations here really highlight a problem I have with Pathfinder’s Outsiders: there’s no consistency in the design. There are anthropomorphic Outsiders in all Celestial groups but also more abstract looking ones plus Winged Humanoids. Why not just pick a them and be consistent? Like say, the Archons are abstract like the Lanterns, Wheels, and Bastions. The angels are Humanoids with wings, Agathions are anthropomorphic animals, and Azatas . . . I don’t know, but folks would at least be able to tell one from the other without meta gaming and checking the stat box!
Great video by the way.
Honestly a lot of that is legacy D&D stuff that you're observing. I definitely agree that PF2, especially with Remaster coming out, has a real opportunity to tighten up its design choices so you could easily visually recognize the difference between angels, archons, agathions and azatas. Agathions of the 4 seem the most distinctive right now, but the other three are all kind of mixed.
16:54 Olheon sounds like a good God to protect National Constitutions.
20:40 Winlas: Like Olheon, but for Church instead of State.
21:48 Zohls: The godess of investigation and due-prosess?
Yeah Olheon is definitely a protector of constitutions. She's a protector of power structures in general, so if the nation in question is a democracy she'll watch over the nation and ensure that the correct democratic process is followed as per the constitution; but if the nation is a monarchy she can be called upon by her clergy to determine who the right successor is as per the nations laws of hereditary rule. Interestingly she generally won't judge a nation for their choice of government, but whatever the laws of the land are she'll ask her clergy to ensure the lawful ruler is named. She's kind of the archetypical archon and she's also the one depicted in the cover image I selected for this video.
The Empyreal lords, there are so many of them. Its a perfectly good excuse just to grab any notionally good god from earth's religious history and be like he's (or she) an empyreal lord.
And archons are just cool. I use them a lot.
I love that each one has a very distinct idea and feel to them.
Binging all the content, love it! Only thing I can think of is some light instrumental music behind an already calming and soothing voice, thank you for making these!!
Thanks for the tip! I've been experimenting with some music I've been struggling to find the balance and not have it to interfere with audio that's already kind of dodgy because I don't have a good place to record without picking up ambient street sound.
@@TheMythKeeper Just saw this, well, you are killing it either way, love the channel, makes my PF1E game that much better
Good as always. Think you are even getting better.
Is all this art from official sources?
Most of it is. As per usual, if no official art is provided I find approximates to keep my video pretty visual. Just a quick scan-through tells me the following did not have art: Eldas, Falayna, Kelinahat, Kroina, Smiad and Winlas.
@@TheMythKeeper Interesting maybe it be good to include a note about that on screen in a corner. Non Official Artist probably need the shoutout.
@@Sjaddix You're not the first to make this request. For this kind of video its not so hard, but for my region deep dives its actually a ton of work because there's a lot of overlapping art and motion and the weekly production schedule I'm trying to keep is already a killer as is. 😞
@@TheMythKeeper Fair enough I do it for this videos though since yeah you kinda stick to one characters picture.
Man this is some great content after watching this I think I'm going to have the imperial Lords make some appearances in my next campaign
Do it! They make for great, memorable and really powerful but opinionated figures
Hoping to see the Dwarf Pantheon soon in anticipation for the Highhelm book!
Oooh... that's a great idea, but I may do it AFTER the Highhelm book so I have more art and content to draw from.
@@TheMythKeeper To be fair, I am a tad biased because I am playing a Dwarf Warpriest of Angradd in an AV campaign I'm in. So the Dwarf Pantheon is of particular interest to me. 😉
@@HeathenHammer8 If you haven't yet, check out my Dwarf Ancestry guide. I do talk a little bit about the dwarf pantheon there, with a terrible hand-drawn guide to the gods to boot!
@@HeathenHammer8 Dwarf Warpriest with fireball sounds insane.
Thanks for another great video... I've been sharing your work with my ttrpg group seeing has you do some of the best pathfinder videos on UA-cam.
Thanks for sharing!
I love your planar videos in general, but this one was more enjoyable than I anticipated since strict Lawful Good mindsets tend to be among my least liked. I appreciated the range of interpretation and practicality that differs from the often "simplistic" Lawful Good of other settings. In DnD's Planescape cosmology LG forces usually have a singular outlook on how to do things properly and associated beings are often painfully predictable (if very powerful). Clearly Pathfinder chose to diversify, and as such Kelinahat is my favorite in this outing because she represents an alternative to what some call a "Lawful Stupid" mindset. Any reasonable, intelligent commander would acknowledge the value of foreknowledge and stealth in achieving victory and preventing harm. Given Kelinahat's nature I'm sure her network has a stricter doctrine of behavior than most spy circles, but even so it's pleasingly nuanced that she's found a way to adopt subtlety and even deception in service of Heaven. My guess is some other Lords disdain her methods while begrudgingly acknowledging her usefulness. Similarly, I liked Svarozic's acknowledgement that Lawful Goodness hasn't been perfected and innovation is still required. It shows a flexibility that Lawful approaches sometimes lack and I think it can still be Lawful to want specific laws amended via approved processes.
You mention briefly that Archons increase in strength around mortals who adhere to their principal virtue. That's news to me but I like that mechanic since it helps explain why planar beings are almost universally motivated to convert mortals even if it costs services or resources. A common criticism of planar beings' behavior (especially when heavy-handed) is that it doesn't make sense since it alienates potential followers or harms their own cause. Often this is explained away by innate nature and inability to act otherwise. Sometimes it's argued that mere exposure to a specific alignment can cause more souls will go to the associated plane after death. Your described increase in potency as more mortals fervently believe adds value and motive to actions that would seem counterproductive otherwise. The demon who kills one of its followers may impress witnesses into fear/belief and thus increase it's personal power more than the dead low-level cultist would have.
Finally, some Lords seem to champion conflicting views and it would be interesting to know how those Lords interact. For instance: Ghenshau's love of simplicity even at the price of ignorance vs. Zohl's determined investigation of minutiae because she believes little details define existence. Winlas believes in following ceremony to the letter and values staunch tradition whereas Svarozic believes pursuing perfection requires adjusting old concepts or adopting completely new methods. Do the Lords assist in ventures that violate their core principles, simply agree to stay out of each other's way, or do they actually work counter to each other? It feels like when alignment is removed it will leave some of the Lords covered in your videos with very little to unify them ideologically.
Thanks so much for the support Colin! You've really picked out some of the reasons I'm a big supporter of Paizo and the Pathfinder game in general. It seems like they zig a lot when they could easily zag. This is a pretty varied pantheon considering there all of the same 'type' and they are all technically LG in the old alignment system. As for how the Lords interact, I think its much like people. Often, they disagree, but when confronted with the force of Hell or the Abyss they will tend to find they agree more than they disagree and so they set their differences aside to advance their collective agenda. I'm also sure that some of the Empyreal Lords are quite close, as allies or even just friends, whereas other Empyreal Lords find each other annoying or frustrating or hold any number of other opinions about them. Even on the plane of Heaven, the perspectives are not a monolith.
@@TheMythKeeper You are welcome to the support my friend! I continue to appreciate your videos and your level of community involvement is top-notch so you deserve it. As to interactions, you make a good point. When choosing between demons vs. annoyances, it only makes sense that the logical, communal, and good Lords would reach compromise. Given the nature of Heaven and the Lords (either Lawful Good or focused on organization and community post-alignment), as a GM I'd utilize the Grand Court of Heaven on the administrative 6th Layer. There the Lords could debate their positions in cases of disagreement with all parties agreeing to abide by the rulings so as to avoid wasteful conflict.
You’re work never fails to impress. Great work!
Personally, I would like to come back as a archon in Golarion’s universe.
They’re righteously metal! 🤟🏻
If I was in Golarion's universe, definitely coming back as a daemon of abaddon, a pov that's too crazy to explain...
uh, I never expected to have my one question about the WotR video game answered here, I just thought I had missed something, but nope, it all makes sense now, I lacked lore knowledge, the thing about being a chaos player in most trpg is that I neglect lawful good lore...Amber's "crow" now makes sense; Andoletta.
That's correct sir!
Wish you had a Starfinder channel like this cuz these vids are very good 👍
I suspect I will eventually put some Starfinder content up here. Hang in there ;-)
@@TheMythKeeper I will :)
Great video as usual. Good work!
I appreciate that!
Just a heads up. You said that the wheel archon was a justice in stead of honesty. Also congrats on the shout out from how it's played.
I totally messed that up! Yes, Wheel is Honesty. I wish I'd caught that in the edit.
How is this comment and response 3 weeks old when video was uploaded only 4h ago?
@@ZoneofA I'm part of the Patreon so I see early access.
@@Lcirex Oh! That makes sense. Tanks for supporting his work.
@@ZoneofA Mythwatchers Club! I have a membership program now on UA-cam. People get access to videos 4 weeks early if they join. Join button is right by the video, although I hear that maybe it doesn't always work on mobile. 😕
As someone with a cleric build in mind, I'm curious to see how the PF2e religon details will change after the remaster. With the cosomolgies structured so heavily around alignment, its removal seems like it would be very impactful.
Do you think you'll do NEW lore videos for things impacted by the remaster, similar to the way you've acknowledged the changes from PF1e to PF2e, or canonical changes from some Adventure Paths? I'm sure it's hard to say for sure now, since we don't know the full extent of the changes, but I think new videos would be interesting. All your lore videos are great, btw!
I think yes, but I won't redo all of these videos, I'll just do a single video that talks in the broad strokes around how the changes affect the cosmology.
So glad to see Pathfinder paid attention to the three alignment sub-types of Celestials. I loved that idea when they were introduced in D&D, and sad to see them more or less forgotten about as it trod on, so this is all super fun to me. I'm curious, where did you find the art of Falayna? It's really good, I may use it for a VTT.
www.artstation.com/artwork/xyBE2 ;-)
Another good video
None of these guys trigger me in the way some of the Emperial Lords from Narvana do, but I am sceptical with the "lawfull" half of some of their "lawfull-good" allignments.
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Actually, I've been noticing a pattern, that PF's definition of true-netural, (and by extention all the other allignments,) leans abit more towards chaotic-neutral than D&D's definition.
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i.e: Ghenshau, Kelinahat, Kroina, Svarozic, and Tanagaar, and maybe Olheon, all seem debatably neutral-good to me; all for differnet reasons.
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Kelinahat and Svarozic I would allmost call chaotic-good.
I'm definitely curious to hear your take as we get through the rest of the Empyreal Lord series. One thing I'm very excited about with Remaster is that PF is abandoning the alignment system. In my view, for a long time now, its seemed clear that the difference between Heaven, Nirvana and Elysium was never about "lawfulness" but much more about values. Heaven is oriented around rules for a good society, Nirvana is about harmony with the environment, Elysium is about the individual. I hope they lean into this a bit more and spell it out more clearly once they're unshackled from the conventional alignments.
@@TheMythKeeperpersonally like allingment as a concept, but I agree that it can be confusing that "law" and "chaos" don't allways refer to literal law or chaos.
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As far as I can tell, law leans towards conservitive principles, (like comminity, justice, tradition, protection authority, etc) and chaos leans towards liberal principles. (like individualism, freedom, change, risk-taking, playing by your own rules, etc) (but not allways.)
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On the good side you have the most benifitial versions of those ideas, and on the evil side you have courruptions of those ideas.
p.s. I made alot of edits to the above comment, to make it "rhyme"/ "be semetrical."
@@TheMythKeeper I'm kind of dreading what their interpritation of chaotic good is, tbh.
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In case your wondering, my irl allignment is true-neutral.
My ideal allingmnet irl is bordering netral-good and lawfull-good, but as a GM I try to be lawfull-neutral.
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P.S, it also seems interesting that PF's lore is more chaotic, but its mechanics is more lawfull.
@@agsilverradio2225 Interestingly I almost see it the opposite way, maybe because I'm European. LG in my mind means solidarity comes from the community (the state if you will). All people are taken care of because the society is built to care for all people. CG means solidarity comes from individuals. Be kind but essentially live and let live.
Awesome! Thanks!
I have never heard of bastion archon or that archons embody virtues where can I find this stuff?
All this stuff should be in chronicles of the righteous I wish they gave it and concordance of rivals the same wealth of detail they gave the book of the damned
The archon subtypes come from various 1e and 2e bestiaries rather than from Chronicle.
if you like to read bout archons and others, read Pathfinder Tales: The Redemption Engine
Good video, any chance we can get a video on technology in the pathfinder multiverse?
I'm not sure if this is what you mean by technology, but I will do a Deep Dive video on Numeria which is the weird country that has a crashed spaceship in it in the near future. That one should deal with something interesting tech. So will my Alkenstar deepdive which should come a little later.
I always get the impression that you are a teacher IRL, am I close? :D
No boringly I work in tech ;-)
@@TheMythKeeper Aha, you're just a natural then ;D
We like this
Azata please!
It is coming!
I'm basically Ghenshau.
I agree. ;-)
Yo these archons kinda sound like a certain irl dictator
Make no mistake, Archons are pretty prescriptive entities. They can make for compelling foes as well as allies.
The sad truth is that this lore is really, really good, but aside from players or DMs who make characters that specifically worship the Empyreal Lords, the massive majority of them are irrelevant to the lore. This is a pity because as beings who have the same tier of influence and power as demon lords and archdevils, many of whose cults and selves feature as prominent antagonists in various APs. Major and even minor gods at times take the spotlight, too, making the Empyreal Lords further neglected, especially at tables that want the stakes to be as high as possible.
I would have liked an Empyreal Lord involved directly in the Worldwound, or even an Empyreal Lord who is sick of the evil they are seeing and does their own planar invasion into an evil country. Archons especially would be complicated enemies and allies to have as the PCs have to wrestle between the freedom and agency of the people versus the collective good the archons can do past the point of conflict.
Or perhaps there is something holding them back, and there could be an adventure dedicated to helping them have greater access to the material plane to do the work.
Just wish we could act on these officially.
The degree to which the Empyreal Lords are involved with your games is largely up to you as a GM. My approach tends to be to involve the celestial figures - whether good, evil, full god, demigod or something else even - based on what my PCs are playing. So if someone is a Cleric of Abadar in my game, then Abadar will be relevant to the game, but if someone is running an Inquisitor of Zohls then you best believe Zohls is making an appearance at some point.
"...only considering those who follow neither law nor good as irredeamable..."
Does that include true-neutral beings?
I think this means demons, daemons and proteans tbh
@@TheMythKeeperThat makes more sense.
(I wonder if azatas see axionites the same way archons see protians?)
@@agsilverradio2225 - I don't know if all Azatas feel this way, but there are definitely Elysium deities (like Gorum) that do not like the Aeons or Axiomites one little bit. I think we'll see when we get to that video that chaos or freedom is more important than good, but for others good is more important and chaos is a secondary value.
Ghenshau, Kelinahat, Kroina, and Svarozic are good but not lawfull:
Change my mind.
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- Ghenshau is too sceptical of civilization to call lawfull, but not enoguh to call him chaotic.
(he may have been LG at one time, but now he's NG.)
Kroina is too focused on following your conchess, rather than specific prestated principles or religious laws.
-Svarozic is more pro changes in tradition than I would label as "lawfull."
-Kroina may be helping the good of civilization, but she uses deception to do so.
I may be sidestepping your ask here a little bit, so instead of convincing you that these deities are Lawful (PF is moving away from alignment anyway) I'll try to persuade you that they are community-oriented.
Ghenshau teaches simplicity. If a community tries to understand everything and especially if they lean hard into technology and overworking they will ultimately be a less happy community. Obviously one can take Ghenshau's lessons as personal ones, but I always see Archons as taking a communal lens. His view is that simpler, quieter more pleasant communities are better than communities focused on growth, expansion and constant improvement. Its an interesting take, but I do think he fits in this pantheon.
Kelinahat is answered in your question. Yes she uses deception (and she is uniquely the only Archon to be comfortable with lies and falsehoods) but her when she gives her word she keeps it and more importantly all her actions are in service to the good of the society. She's a great and complicated archon and a great choice for an interesting player character to follow.
Svarozic - How can Ghenshau and Svarozic be on your list? They are opposites. One is pro-simple societies the other is pro-advancement. Surely at least one should be an archon. Well for me Svarozic disagrees with Ghenshau on what makes for a good society, but ultimately his goal is the same. Betterment of the community.
Kroina - Honestly you got me here. Kroina feels like an Agathion to me. Her teachings are more centered on the self. Interestingly I do think that Kroina is about relationships though. She teaches to trust your instincts when it comes to _other people_ as well. This maybe pushes her to the archon category.
Honestly in some cases your position is probably the most logical, but there are ways to make them work as Lawful Good (LG) archons:
- Ghenshau is a tough one but here goes. If you want to interpret his views in an LG way, he believes that overcomplication leads to chaos. If you wake up for your workday and try to do a dozen things at once, you are less likely to be organized than if you focus on completing one task at a time. A society will be most productive if arranged so that people lead simple lives with a single clear path to accomplishment. Also, you don't need to worry about knowledge outside that which helps your assigned role - a farmer doesn't need to know how to be a swordsmith, cleric, or administrator and devoting time to those professions would only make him a less effective farmer. Thus to our farmer ignorance and simplicity is the path to productivity and healthy participation in society.
- Kelinahat could be LG in the same way an undercover officer is. In the real world, if an agent infiltrates a terrorist organization or breaks into a phone at the request of legally established authorities it could reasonably be argued they are serving the law. If I was in a game with her network involved I'd argue any deception is used exclusively to counter evil/chaos and there would be a strict code that legally limits behavior (i.e. rules of war/engagement). Agents would have specific assignments with specific goals as opposed to being wanderers reporting on whatever they happened across.
- Kroina is another tough one. My best attempt is to equate her mindset to a school of thought in science (especially physics) known as determinism. Determinism states if you completely understand all the information in a "system" then you can tell everything about it's past and future (including future actions). Determinism asserts that predictable natural laws govern every interaction/decision so any surprises indicate that you didn't know everything involved, not any inherent unpredictability in the universe. Mythkeeper says Kroina believes "instincts are truth's precursors", so I'd argue she believes instinctual understanding of the laws of the universe allow one to skip a lot of deliberation. When a Pathfinder ranger suddenly feels a sense of impending danger, it's because their training allows them to understand the information in the "system" of their surroundings and recognize potential danger. They aren't sensing danger at random times, they are utilizing the laws they've learned to leap past conscious thought straight to truth in a process that mimics divination.
- Svarozic could easily be lawful. It's not unlawful to want to amend existing laws if it's done by approved processes. Svarozic could argue that LG perfection has yet to be realized and thus changes or even new ideas should be examined and potentially adopted in a controlled manner. In real life, if a member of government introduces a new bill or amendment they are proposing change via lawful methods.
@@ColinGrym Nice! I particularly like your thoughts on Kroina.
@@ColinGrymWell done. Good points.
@@TheMythKeeperI was thinking of Sarovirc as neutral to leaning more chaotic good; or I did at the time I first made that post.
Dammerich Gang!
Haha
i really like you ;)
It really shows that the lore was written by too many people with few global rules.
As is the real world though ;-)
Was WinLas height an Typeo? 11feet is not Towering!! Look at the smallest Giant??!😅
Considering that even lesser divinities can control their physical shape and appearance, someone whose default form is 11 feet tall says something about how they like to appear. Maybe Winlas would show bigger to a giant worshipper.