On the age vs. skill division debate. There is no all encompassing answer as to what the divisions should be for amateur events. The answer is what structure will bring the most participation, which ultimately leads to the over all goal which IS Growth Of Sport. This structure will vary from one region to another, one community to another, one culture to another. For these reasons it is crucial that anyone trying to organize a grass roots event understands the community their event is aimed at and the potential reach it could have. Also for these reasons many amateur events/series evolve and adapt the divisions as the clientele of the event changes.
Great episode guys, loved the candid discussion & debate on the topics. Here's some of my opinions on some. 1. Age vs. Skill divisions for boat: I've actually had a PM discussion with John about this a few years ago because here in the Utah/Idaho area, we always use to follow the old HyperTour format for our grassroots events which was skill based. But we could never get around the sandbagging issue, AND many of the adult riders didn't feel comfortable standing on the "podium" for a picture with a 10 year-old just because they were beginners. They felt embarrassed. So several years ago, we switched to the Age based divisions since that's what the WWA does and we've had a resurgence in entries and positive feedback. We lost a few riders with the switch but we gained a lot more because of it. 2. Boat prices: I think a major issue with the high prices for a modern wake boat is the unreliability of the boats in ALL the brands. If a customer paid $200k + for an automobile and had the same issues that wake boats have straight from the factory, there would be a strong lemon law argument. Again, all boat brands have had serious issues on a brand new boat after delivery and while they may be covered under warranty, if you live in a seasonal state, you're losing valuable water time while still making your payments. If you're very lucky, your dealer will loan you a boat during the repairs but that's not normal. At least in our area, that's the major discussion point amongst boat owners with regards to high prices. I don't blame manufacturer's for increasing prices because if customers are paying it, why would they not continue to raise them every year? Blame the consumers, haha! 3. WWA vs IWWF: As John stated, the IWWF is the International Federation for the sport and falls under the umbrella of Olympic sports. Decades ago, I mentioned to Shannon Starling that if wakeboarding ever got into the Olympics, it would NOT be the WWA that oversaw it's participation but in fact, USA Waterski (for the US Team as the official NGB in the US) & IWWF. It was something that he never even considered. It was just assumed that since the WWA started the Worlds, had the culture and riders, etc that they would oversee the sport at its highest level, but that's not the case. IMO, I still consider the WWA World's to be THE World's. But the one huge benefit that IWWF has over the WWA is from the Olympic/Pan-American connection. And like John also stated, many foreign riders get funding from their government and/or National Federation for the placements in IWWF comps because in their governments eye's, the IWWF is THE International Federation of the Sport.
Good points Ryan. I think on #1 I like the age based divisions myself. Haven't ridden in a boat comp in a few years but much prefer age brackets for riding cable comps at Imondis. It's fun as an older guy to face off against other older guys vs kids. On #2, I think both reliability and price are both issues. A 2009 first year Axis A22 retailed at $40K. According to an inflation calc on google that is now $58,787 today. There is no boat even close to that level with a warranty for that price. Today's boat market feels like if the automobile industry said "Hey there are some rich folks buying Porsches so we're discontinuing Volkswagon. And by the way, your Porsche boat can only be serviced at the dealer and it will come with 3-5 issues from the factory." My 22' A22 has had 3 separate gel repairs and a total trailer bearing replacement since purchase as an example. Anyway, I don't think we should let the manufacturers off the hook. They are alienating a lot of people right now on both issues. Plus where are they on all the impending anti-wake legislature? Seeing Tommys implode or Malibu's stock halve since 2021 should be a wake up call, but we'll see. In the meantime, enjoy the boats we have and respect to the sub $100k used market.
@@LifetimeShred Need to see you at a boat comp again next summer! Oh and I'm certainly not letting the boat companies off the hook, quite the contrary. I would like to find a way to hold manufacturers more accountable for the quality of product & reliability if they are going to charge the prices they do. My point was more to the consumers that pretty much say, "I can afford the astronomical prices so I'll continue to buy them no matter how high they get." They are the reason the prices continue to go through the roof!
@@ryanshimabukuro3283 People do pay the high prices. I guess with supply and demand boat manufacturers can only pump out so many boats a year because they are all handmade. If supply is constrained and demand goes up, price shoots up too. I do think people are short on money and getting sick of it though. Still a lot of 2024 inventory on dealer lots right now.
100% agree more marketing older wakeboard boats! I feel like pros have little to no influence on the people wealthy enough to buy a new one... showcasing how capable and fun an old 210, x star, or wakesetter is will have far more positive impacts on the sport
sick one again! These shop talks are always the best. Gotta say though, john draws a lot of attention to himself in the convo's haha. Kinda would've loved to hear more from the gavins but hey, man's got stories for days so can't blame him really :)
We should (in a perfect world) have a street league style series where bilevel parks are built in each city (similar to how street league built public skateparks) with metal and concrete and gaps and then the parks are left open to the public after the contest. Definitely harder in wakeboarding but would be easier with subsidized money from the Govt. Leave behind the gnarly setup and a flat 2.0 that the city pays for and operates as a public park and substantially grow the number of 2.0 parks across the country. I firmly believe more 2.0s scattered across the country is the best way to increase the reach of cable wakeboarding while lowering the barriers to entry.
Agree with this. But cost more money to leave the cable and it’s obviously harder. This is for sure ideal, but it also could mean the location gets compromised because you know have to find somewhere a cable can stay forever. Maybe we can get there though one day
Mfer let’s build this perfect world. im cookin something rn Todd’s cookin theres others cookin. I see this being more feasible in the coming years. I know for a fact minus the cost of property I can build a 2.0 setup for half the cost of a new g23
Why do y'all compare to skateboarding when there are blunts and nose slides and tail slides in snowboarding which is a more similar sport. The blunt needs to be tipped up and outside of the boot. The definitive point that Hunter is talking about on a skateboard is the truck. The definitive point on a wakeboard that makes it a nose or tailslide or a blunt is the outside of the boot. There is a definitive point in both sports and if its not outside the boot, its not a blunt.
While there is a definitive point on a wakeboard and snowboard, there is not something attached to the bottom that your board gets “locked in” on like a truck. Seems like what people call blunts on a wakeboard and where the blunt actually needs to be is always a blurred line when people actually do the trick, whereas on a skateboard it’s black and white. Solid points though
@@grabmatters I'd add that on a snowboard or wakeboard a blunt to me also involves some kind of press. Rail/feature needs to be outside of the bindings at 90 degrees on the far side and the riders needs to be pushing into the object to hold it in place. The press is what creates the "locked in" feeling or the blunt. Without doing that proper pressure, rider is probably slipping off early anyway.
@@LifetimeShredTHIS! 100% why it’s a different trick. Plus if you give it a name kids are more likely to try it as something new. Leading to more legit tricks and better style and the sport heading in a better direction!
What about on a flat square box where the blunt cannot be tipped up and the press is there but the tipped up is not? Is that a blunt or is that a tail slide/press? Cause you couldn’t lock in on the 90 degree corner tipped up¿ A skate board can do a locked in blunt on a 90 degree ledge but also a snowboard can not¿
On the age vs. skill division debate. There is no all encompassing answer as to what the divisions should be for amateur events. The answer is what structure will bring the most participation, which ultimately leads to the over all goal which IS Growth Of Sport. This structure will vary from one region to another, one community to another, one culture to another. For these reasons it is crucial that anyone trying to organize a grass roots event understands the community their event is aimed at and the potential reach it could have. Also for these reasons many amateur events/series evolve and adapt the divisions as the clientele of the event changes.
Spot on!
Great episode guys, loved the candid discussion & debate on the topics. Here's some of my opinions on some.
1. Age vs. Skill divisions for boat: I've actually had a PM discussion with John about this a few years ago because here in the Utah/Idaho area, we always use to follow the old HyperTour format for our grassroots events which was skill based. But we could never get around the sandbagging issue, AND many of the adult riders didn't feel comfortable standing on the "podium" for a picture with a 10 year-old just because they were beginners. They felt embarrassed. So several years ago, we switched to the Age based divisions since that's what the WWA does and we've had a resurgence in entries and positive feedback. We lost a few riders with the switch but we gained a lot more because of it.
2. Boat prices: I think a major issue with the high prices for a modern wake boat is the unreliability of the boats in ALL the brands. If a customer paid $200k + for an automobile and had the same issues that wake boats have straight from the factory, there would be a strong lemon law argument. Again, all boat brands have had serious issues on a brand new boat after delivery and while they may be covered under warranty, if you live in a seasonal state, you're losing valuable water time while still making your payments. If you're very lucky, your dealer will loan you a boat during the repairs but that's not normal. At least in our area, that's the major discussion point amongst boat owners with regards to high prices. I don't blame manufacturer's for increasing prices because if customers are paying it, why would they not continue to raise them every year? Blame the consumers, haha!
3. WWA vs IWWF: As John stated, the IWWF is the International Federation for the sport and falls under the umbrella of Olympic sports. Decades ago, I mentioned to Shannon Starling that if wakeboarding ever got into the Olympics, it would NOT be the WWA that oversaw it's participation but in fact, USA Waterski (for the US Team as the official NGB in the US) & IWWF. It was something that he never even considered. It was just assumed that since the WWA started the Worlds, had the culture and riders, etc that they would oversee the sport at its highest level, but that's not the case. IMO, I still consider the WWA World's to be THE World's. But the one huge benefit that IWWF has over the WWA is from the Olympic/Pan-American connection. And like John also stated, many foreign riders get funding from their government and/or National Federation for the placements in IWWF comps because in their governments eye's, the IWWF is THE International Federation of the Sport.
Solid points!
Good points Ryan. I think on #1 I like the age based divisions myself. Haven't ridden in a boat comp in a few years but much prefer age brackets for riding cable comps at Imondis. It's fun as an older guy to face off against other older guys vs kids.
On #2, I think both reliability and price are both issues. A 2009 first year Axis A22 retailed at $40K. According to an inflation calc on google that is now $58,787 today. There is no boat even close to that level with a warranty for that price. Today's boat market feels like if the automobile industry said "Hey there are some rich folks buying Porsches so we're discontinuing Volkswagon. And by the way, your Porsche boat can only be serviced at the dealer and it will come with 3-5 issues from the factory." My 22' A22 has had 3 separate gel repairs and a total trailer bearing replacement since purchase as an example. Anyway, I don't think we should let the manufacturers off the hook. They are alienating a lot of people right now on both issues. Plus where are they on all the impending anti-wake legislature? Seeing Tommys implode or Malibu's stock halve since 2021 should be a wake up call, but we'll see. In the meantime, enjoy the boats we have and respect to the sub $100k used market.
@@LifetimeShred Need to see you at a boat comp again next summer!
Oh and I'm certainly not letting the boat companies off the hook, quite the contrary. I would like to find a way to hold manufacturers more accountable for the quality of product & reliability if they are going to charge the prices they do. My point was more to the consumers that pretty much say, "I can afford the astronomical prices so I'll continue to buy them no matter how high they get." They are the reason the prices continue to go through the roof!
@@ryanshimabukuro3283 People do pay the high prices. I guess with supply and demand boat manufacturers can only pump out so many boats a year because they are all handmade. If supply is constrained and demand goes up, price shoots up too. I do think people are short on money and getting sick of it though. Still a lot of 2024 inventory on dealer lots right now.
John’s knowledge on all board sports is unmatched
100% agree more marketing older wakeboard boats! I feel like pros have little to no influence on the people wealthy enough to buy a new one... showcasing how capable and fun an old 210, x star, or wakesetter is will have far more positive impacts on the sport
Imagine the influence 40 year old studs like Murray and Rusty have on a wealthy guy in a midlife crisis.....
So many of those boats from that era out there!
Agreed here! Made a youtube vid about my friend's 08' Xstar and people love it. You can have a lot of fun wakeboarding on a boat under $50k.
sick one again! These shop talks are always the best. Gotta say though, john draws a lot of attention to himself in the convo's haha. Kinda would've loved to hear more from the gavins but hey, man's got stories for days so can't blame him really :)
We should (in a perfect world) have a street league style series where bilevel parks are built in each city (similar to how street league built public skateparks) with metal and concrete and gaps and then the parks are left open to the public after the contest. Definitely harder in wakeboarding but would be easier with subsidized money from the Govt.
Leave behind the gnarly setup and a flat 2.0 that the city pays for and operates as a public park and substantially grow the number of 2.0 parks across the country.
I firmly believe more 2.0s scattered across the country is the best way to increase the reach of cable wakeboarding while lowering the barriers to entry.
Agree with this. But cost more money to leave the cable and it’s obviously harder.
This is for sure ideal, but it also could mean the location gets compromised because you know have to find somewhere a cable can stay forever.
Maybe we can get there though one day
@@johndreiling Hence the "in a perfect world" lmao.
@@toddxallen would love to live in this world 😂
Mfer let’s build this perfect world. im cookin something rn Todd’s cookin theres others cookin. I see this being more feasible in the coming years. I know for a fact minus the cost of property I can build a 2.0 setup for half the cost of a new g23
No way that is John's shirt. Have y'all seen him line dance?
😂😂😂
Do you wake board on silver lake a lot?
In the summer a few times yeah!
LOL the awkward blunt discussion .
Allllll the nuances 😆
Connelly for sure😂😂😂
Why do y'all compare to skateboarding when there are blunts and nose slides and tail slides in snowboarding which is a more similar sport. The blunt needs to be tipped up and outside of the boot. The definitive point that Hunter is talking about on a skateboard is the truck. The definitive point on a wakeboard that makes it a nose or tailslide or a blunt is the outside of the boot. There is a definitive point in both sports and if its not outside the boot, its not a blunt.
While there is a definitive point on a wakeboard and snowboard, there is not something attached to the bottom that your board gets “locked in” on like a truck. Seems like what people call blunts on a wakeboard and where the blunt actually needs to be is always a blurred line when people actually do the trick, whereas on a skateboard it’s black and white. Solid points though
@@grabmatters I'd add that on a snowboard or wakeboard a blunt to me also involves some kind of press. Rail/feature needs to be outside of the bindings at 90 degrees on the far side and the riders needs to be pushing into the object to hold it in place. The press is what creates the "locked in" feeling or the blunt. Without doing that proper pressure, rider is probably slipping off early anyway.
@@grabmattersyou use boots as a line of where you can grab 🤔
@@LifetimeShredTHIS! 100% why it’s a different trick. Plus if you give it a name kids are more likely to try it as something new. Leading to more legit tricks and better style and the sport heading in a better direction!
What about on a flat square box where the blunt cannot be tipped up and the press is there but the tipped up is not? Is that a blunt or is that a tail slide/press? Cause you couldn’t lock in on the 90 degree corner tipped up¿
A skate board can do a locked in blunt on a 90 degree ledge but also a snowboard can not¿
This blunt debate is wack. Blunt is a legit trick in wakeboarding and snowboarding