I tried a cheap Chinese hei distributor Engine fired up and idled great. During break in it had a strange lope. First pull it was down bad on power. Tried a different carb. Same result. Changed the ignition module to a DUI module and it made 100 more hp next pull.
In your holley carb, you should put the winged circle track floats. This keeps fuel slosh from affecting the fuel level in the bowl and also helps to stop it from coming out the vent tubes. It also allows the needle valve to stay open in turns if the bowl is trying to fill. The dual winged floats are Quick Fuel 16-15QFT for the secondary side if you are using jet extensions. And 16-14QFT for the primary side.
Had a local dyno shop tell me hei was trash, I didn't say anything Just let it go in one ear and out the other. I had them on two SBF and they ran flaw less. Yeah spend your money how ever you want.........
@@cammontreuil7509don’t kid yourself, they all fit that description. I have had a few hei modules leave me stranded. My cars with them get a module change kit when I use them.
My rather ancient experience with going from a reworked HEI distributor to an MSD distributor and 7AL2 box was it showed an improvement when the rpms were over about 6500. It was also at that time the best way to run a trans brake with a two step rev. limiter. As for the multispark stuff, I'm now a believer that you only get to light the candle once, except on two plug heads where you get to light the candle at both ends. (-; I'm waiting in anticipation of the engine's competition debut. (-:
Awesome to see the family involved. And to support you as well. Can’t wait to see it pulling down the track and hopefully getting some wins. Good luck. Can’t wait for more content.
Finally someone is testing ignition #against each other. I’ve always wondered what the results would be of ignition boxes shoot out and a module shoot out on modules to replace points conversion ones.
It takes energy to bridge that gap, and as cylinder pressures increase the energy required to bridge the same gap increases. If you're a "pump gas friendly" 9:1 kinda guy you'll never need multiple sparks or such a huge step-up transformer. I live on 11:1 and build client's vehicles out to 12:1😉(higher....but 🤫) on 93 in the middle of TEXAS summers. HEI won't sustain the demands of this caliber of engine. I'll take the Pepsi challenge all day to prove it. However the HEI does to very well over a wide array of demands and lack of necessary fundamentally sound builders. That's impressive. I hope your wish for your test to happen makes it past a pilot. Someone is bound to have the time and resources to prove what mathematics can for A LOT LESS!
I had a 68 Camaro that i had a 302 built ..i spun it to 7500 regularly.. i had a solid roller cam in it ..i had a HEI distributor in it that had been recurved with a bronze gear ..Never had a problem from using the HEI .. i use a HEI again if i ever need one
Two things you should mention on your show that I found over and over. Street car guys should check for full carb opening with pedal on floor and use of a timing tape to ensure full advance of 34-38 degrees above 2500-3000 RPM.
Engine Masters had an episode where their 801 hp dyno mule had the dyno msd 8 or 9 go bad ,they installed a hei in its place and motor made same hp haha
Unity Motorsport s Garage tested a DUI against a Progression Ignition. The Progression show noticeable gains. I’d like to see it up against an MSD. I’m running a Progression Ignition distributor in my sbc. Switched it from a MSD HEI. Immediately notice a crisper exhaust note.
I used to be involved in hydroplane racing. Since my background is in electronics, some friends asked me to look at their MSD parts. I was able to look at some HEI MSD replacement modules and some MSD box for magnetos. The very first thing I have noticed is how cheap, cheap, cheap the printed circuit boards were. I was trying to remove defective parts and the copper tracks would come off from the circuit board. I have salvaged many parts from trashed printed circuit board, over the years, but I’ve never seen such cheap Printed Circuit Board. For the price we pay, for these products, I would expect top notch quality design. Unfortunately, it’s not the case.
I had an accel hei module and coil. The module went bad in two weeks. Switched to DUI and it’s worked flawlessly. You only light the charge once and even points isn’t going lose power. If there was power to be gained by MSDs claims all the OEs would do it
I found on reading the strap on sparkplug.The closer to the bottom of the strap the better.If it starts to the threads you are pushing it to much advance are burning at the on the strap.For richness 1/8" from bottom of porcelain.Jet carb to get there.
Allen thanks for the shout out. I made a comment about not beating up customers engines on the dyno because they aren't full blown race engines and you don't want to break them. I got jumped on so I took it down maybe that's something you and Daryl can discuss with people. Again great video man have a great day
Thanks Brian. I did see your comment and sorry I didn't get a chance to reply. There was nothing wrong with your comment. I have often said that the dyno is the ultimate torture test. If your engine survives 10-12 pulls on the dyno, it should last forever in the car, provided of course that you keep water and oil in it and don't over rev it. To me, that is just as important as the benefit we get from tuning. You are going to have a great channel but you will find that UA-cam exposes you to thousands of people with widely varying points of view. i enjoy all constructive comments, even if they don't agree with me. For those key board pirates that just want to slander me, i just ignore them and never have a policy to never respond. "No answer is a strong reply" AG
Circle track stuff around here, you are not allowed a MSD! (Local racers!) We used Performance Distributors HEIs for decades! Those China ones may work, but I have never seen one last! Also the timing is almost always different between boxes! Even if they are identical! So make sure you double check the timing in the car!
True. The China distributors do not last long. 2000 miles if you are lucky. Advance weights and the posts they mount on wear out quickly. Shaft bushings too.
Thanks for testing. I always loved HEI, but would prefer a crank trigger & one coil per cylinder for ultra reliability at high cylinder pressures & RPM. But it doesn't look right and isn't needed on most engines, especially street/strip type.
Thanks Joel. Well it was a short season, just five races as he started midway in the schedule. 2 feature wins, 2 second place finishes and one third. Average finish 1.8. Mike also set fast time in all 5 qualifying sessions. During the off season I am planning to experiment with cam timing changes to soften the corners and increase the top end. We will keep you all posted on that process. Thanks for your interest. AG
I recently replaced an unknown year MSD HEI distributor that was giving me problems with an Amazon unit I got for $65 USD with shipping. They were identical after taking both apart to swap the module for the pigtail to connect the CDI box. I mean IDENTICAL. Runs exactly the same but isn’t spraying oil
And if you're looking at those "cheap" HEI's take it apart and use high temp grease, on the shaft and CORRECT heat sink paste undrr the HEI module!! And swap out to a known Chevy drive gear. Chinesium ones might eat your cam gear!
I just got one as a extra. Got it dirt cheap. The casting looks surprisingly clean and precise...., but that china gear is trash. Hell the entire hei was $30 a distributor cap at the part store costs more lol!
The heads might flow 300cfm, but unless that intake has a ton of porting it won't flow even close to that. It would be lucky to flow 230cfm at the best port. Other than that it's a very nice build. Thanks for sharing!
I`ve used proform carbs and had no propbems, I bought 5 proform HEI distributors and 4 of them failed in three months. They all died within 100 laps of one another, the 5th is in the shop and I use it on the run in stand cause I`m afraid to sell it. Your motor sounds good, torque is what you feel when ya push the loud pedal.
GOLD.....good job dad! You got me all choked up and wondering who the smoking hot blonde is in the thumbnail. No offense....I'm only appreciating the obvious. Good job Gold!
The big smile on Mike's face the entire video told me all I need to know! But actually, I have a bet going right now after I told someone that on a 1974 & older Chevy V8 points dizzy, the number 1 terminal on the dizzy actually faces number 2 cylinder.. Am I correct Allen Gold??
What viscosity oil do you use in the street engines you build? Way back in the day, Valvoline, who was sponsoring Neil Bonnet's NASCAR car, they claimed that they were using off the shelf 10W30 oil??? Thanks.
Thanks Clark, really good question. The thinner the better to make HP, as long as the bearing clearances are sufficient to maintain oil pressure. Remember if you have a flat tappet cam, you must use oil with ZDDP, otherwise 10W30 of the shelf is fine. AG
You seem like guys that could test and get use out of my beta, simplified, P59 base tune. The video you want is "Want go kart EFI? Junkyard car parts (P59 ECU)". More info in descriptions of most of my videos. Meant for open loop only with as few sensors as reasonably possible. Map, crank, cam, IAT, and TPS sensors, nothing more. The TPS is a quirk of the operating system of that specific ECU. Tieing TPS pin high and maxing self test values should also work; haven't tested that yet. I'm betting there are after market LS coils that compare to MSD.
I have had mixed results with the cheap hei. I think Hei type ignitions are fantastic. I have worked on 3 and owned 2 of the Amazon/ebay Post Covid units with erratic advance curves that couldn’t be tuned out and shafts that snap in the body or non standard hei components and they fail. I have also had dozens of pre covid units that were flawless.
Nice engine test & Ignition comparison info !!....Ignition spark Advertising Looks so Dramatic but at this Relatively modest (6000) engine speed range application no surprise Any good working ignition has No hp or torque Performance improvements....Even the old '60's Chevy factory Stock dual Points distributor & Coil easily handles this engines Ignition demands !! ...... 3000 revs & above needs Only 1 1/2 way decent good Spark to produce the max power...Most over-Priced Aftermarket Ignition systems are 99% Unproven advertising Hype & unfortunately the #1 area customer performance $$$$ wasted on with no Real performance gains.....Compared to original factory stock dual Points distributor only Maintenance between Tune-ups is Improved.....Thx for showing....
Thank you Tom, all very good points. We were doing fine with points. In the seventies i had a C/MP car. It had a Mallory 4 lobe distributor with two sets of points. One set fired 4 cylinders and the other fired the other four. I think the idea was to improve dwell. It worked great to 8000 RPM, but i had to put it in a distributor machine weekly to keep it adjusted correctly. That said, my Z-28 has single points ACDelco D112P and they worked good past 7000RPM. AG
Question: I may have missed it in the video or the comments but how do you address the amount of mechanical advance that the HEI has? I bought a $99 special as a test rig for the Camaro (trying to troubleshoot a misfire) but I found that, as with all HEI's I've had my hands that there's no practical way to limit the 19° total mechanical/centrifugal available. Welding and grinding the advance slot is the only method I've come across. MSD, as most folks know, have various diameter limiting bushings. FTR: Looking at a total advance of 34° (initial plus centrifugal excluding vacuum )but I run 20° of initial typically. That means the HEI has to be limited to 14°. Interested in your and your subscribers approach. Thanks as always Mr G.
Thanks for the question Kevin. I have never needed to limit the total mechanical advance on these distributors. I have used different springs only to change the rate of advance. With manifold vacuum connected, actual advance at idle is in the range of 40 degrees. on the dyno, we do not use vacuum advance. Typically the dyno picks up about 3000RPM and all the advance is in by then anyway. If any viewers out there can help Kevin with this question, please weigh in. AG
@@goldsgarage8236 Thanks very much for the reply Alan. I'd be interested to hear any input. May I ask where you set your initial advance and how much the vacuum can contributes at idle? What is your total at 3000 RPM (I'll understand if that's your trade secret though!) So as to keep it clear, the last 355 with too much cam and too little CR (from an ideal standpoint) likes to idle with 30-32° advance (16-18 initial +14 vacuum). It would probably have taken the 40° similar to yours but I left it at that. I use manifold vacuum which IIRC adds another 14° and is all in about 2" Hg below idle vacuum. It works superbly. I suppose one workaround with an HEI would be an approach similar to yours although I have to assume that your vacuum advance is a greater amount than the 14 mine produces. Thanks as always.
Thanks Kevin. I set total advance (all in just over 3000RPM) wherever it makes the best power and let the initial be wherever that it is. Usually about 16 degrees without the manifold vacuum connected. Then with it VA connected and at full vacuum, advance at idle will be about 40 degrees. The engine needs lots of advance at idle as there is little cylinder pressure and the flame travels slowly. As soon as you crack the throttle, vacuum drops out and the mechanical takes over. Hope this helps and thanks for contributing to my channel/AG
@@goldsgarage8236 Thanks very much for that Alan. While I had a decent ignition curve for the previous engine, this new iteration will require something different. On top of that, I'm no sure how long the old and ancient MSD distributor will last. Enter HEI. Either that or I'll give a go at Progressive Ignition's fully programmable unit. Thanks again.
Where are you guys out in Springfield? I've been living out there for the last few years. Having some major problems and im Looking into scrapping a whole holley sniper fuel injection setup that just died. Maybe your guys have a full carb and ignition setup that will work for me?
Thanks for the question Dan. Watters Dyno service is on Springfield line in Springfield Ontario, about 1/2 hour southeast of London. I am located in London Ontario. AG
@goldsgarage8236 interesting, I have never known of a dyno service in the area. And can't even find a buisness associated with the name. I did however find an old buisness card with an address on lyons that I drive by daily. Do they have a current phone number you could send me to get in touch or I may just stop by and knock on some doors and see what they can do for me.
I replaced an ancient Mallory Dual Point distributor with a $62 Ebay HEI , works perfect, is it as good as the MSD ? Don't know , but it does everything perfectly, about 2 years and 16,500 miles, 6700 rpm max.
Is there a build sheet or video? Ive had a 406 (5.7 rod) in my 95 3/4ton nv4500/3.42. I just needed a engine in there quickly. Was my daily at the time. But I'd LOVE to get those numbers in a lighter truck or car. It was balanced with a flex plate but using flywheel now. Been running a HEI and since the TBI is only around 18psi, ive been running a return style regulator for almost 7yrs. And with a EX274 cam, it makes pretty decent mileage! I also scored a pair of Dart Iron Eagle 230 iron heads sitting that i could use. Let me know!
HEI distributors have been good from their inception. But most need the correct curve for the application. I think they look 'ok' on a race car or what they originally come on, but they are just so damn ugly where they didn't originally come equipped. IMO.
I recurved a lot of HEI distributors that were used for oval track classes that required “stock” distributors. Putting in a appropriate curve makes the car jump off the turns and that’s where a pass is initiated . A stock adv curve makes the car lazy off the turns.
Do you have the link for this Amazon distributor? I need a distributor gear that is nitrided. Does this $75 distributor have that. Great video Thank you.
Most of these distributors have a melanized gear, but you should check it out. If you just type distributor in the Amazon search window, choices will come up for different applications. AG
Had a buddy that had a fuel altered small block Chevy single, 1,200, CFM carb, was only running 11s in the quarter mile with the MSD,, Sent the MSD back to the factory to have it checked,, factory said it was okay,,He put it back in the car only ran 11s,,,again,, put his Accel distributor dual point with the race points,, Then ran 6s,, in the quarter mile....
Unfortunately, you forgot to mention Knock-Off or Copy etc etc. Your boarding on endorsing using Copy Products, all this leads to in encouraging more more Copy Products, it doesn't make Racing cheaper or Maintenace, just a hole heap of trouble when it fails.
Thanks for your comments James. Gold's Garage strives to provide viewers factual, real life information that they can apply. We do not endorse or condemn anything. The dyno helps to validate information. Application of information is at the viewers discretion. The MSD ignition is still in Mikes race car. AG
I can tell you that them cheap distributors will fail. The electronics are junk.. HEI control modules even if good only live so long but the Chinese crap will fail in a year!
I tried a cheap Chinese hei distributor
Engine fired up and idled great. During break in it had a strange lope. First pull it was down bad on power. Tried a different carb. Same result. Changed the ignition module to a DUI module and it made 100 more hp next pull.
Thanks for another great video!!! I loved the comparison and the input from everyone!!!
Glad you enjoyed it!, Thanks for commenting.AG
A Great Family and Family Video Thanks Al.
In your holley carb, you should put the winged circle track floats. This keeps fuel slosh from affecting the fuel level in the bowl and also helps to stop it from coming out the vent tubes.
It also allows the needle valve to stay open in turns if the bowl is trying to fill.
The dual winged floats are Quick Fuel 16-15QFT for the secondary side if you are using jet extensions.
And 16-14QFT for the primary side.
Had a local dyno shop tell me hei was trash, I didn't say anything Just let it go in one ear and out the other. I had them on two SBF and they ran flaw less. Yeah spend your money how ever you want.........
MSD. Might Suddenly Die.
I use a points distributor with a MSD 6AL. After the points break, the MSD box takes care of everything else
@@cammontreuil7509don’t kid yourself, they all fit that description. I have had a few hei modules leave me stranded. My cars with them get a module change kit when I use them.
Great video! Can’t wait to test the engine! Thanks to everyone involved.
Great video! Thanks for sharing with us.
Great video Allen. Looks like it ran well and you definitely accomplished your goal.
Thanks Brian. AG
Perfect timing as I'm about to buy the finishing touches in Distributor. Thanks and I like the matching team shirts!!
Thanks for your comments Thomas. AG
Crank trigger and programmable curve.
My rather ancient experience with going from a reworked HEI distributor to an MSD distributor and 7AL2 box was it showed an improvement when the rpms were over about 6500. It was also at that time the best way to run a trans brake with a two step rev. limiter.
As for the multispark stuff, I'm now a believer that you only get to light the candle once, except on two plug heads where you get to light the candle at both ends. (-;
I'm waiting in anticipation of the engine's competition debut. (-:
Awesome to see the family involved. And to support you as well. Can’t wait to see it pulling down the track and hopefully getting some wins. Good luck. Can’t wait for more content.
Thanks Royale, we will keep you informed. AG
Finally someone is testing ignition #against each other. I’ve always wondered what the results would be of ignition boxes shoot out and a module shoot out on modules to replace points conversion ones.
😬 man.....who's paying for all that testing? The time....then the comments. Whoa.....😨
It takes energy to bridge that gap, and as cylinder pressures increase the energy required to bridge the same gap increases.
If you're a "pump gas friendly" 9:1 kinda guy you'll never need multiple sparks or such a huge step-up transformer.
I live on 11:1 and build client's vehicles out to 12:1😉(higher....but 🤫) on 93 in the middle of TEXAS summers. HEI won't sustain the demands of this caliber of engine.
I'll take the Pepsi challenge all day to prove it. However the HEI does to very well over a wide array of demands and lack of necessary fundamentally sound builders. That's impressive.
I hope your wish for your test to happen makes it past a pilot. Someone is bound to have the time and resources to prove what mathematics can for A LOT LESS!
You know Ron, you could've been doing it this whole time if you were so desperate for it
@@lollipop84858 😂
Nice job Alan and everyone involved.
Certainly a nice small block Chevy.
Thanks for sharing. 👍
Thanks for watching and commenting Ed. AG
I had a 68 Camaro that i had a 302 built ..i spun it to 7500 regularly.. i had a solid roller cam in it ..i had a HEI distributor in it that had been recurved with a bronze gear ..Never had a problem from using the HEI .. i use a HEI again if i ever need one
Thanks Jim.AG
This is a similar motor and similar power to the motor I have in my 69 Camaro. I have a solid roller. I’m happy with the street manners
Two things you should mention on your show that I found over and over. Street car guys should check for full carb opening with pedal on floor and use of a timing tape to ensure full advance of 34-38 degrees above 2500-3000 RPM.
Good point Frank. I will do that for sure. AG
The standard plug gap for HEI ign is .045”. For use above 6000 rpm you should run .030” for V8s. 4 cyl and 6 cyl can run .045” for racing.
I bought the ebay cheap distributor for a 454 build, junked the module for a new old stock oem, it runs like a clock and pulls 6k trailer.
Thanks for the tip Sid. AG
Engine Masters had an episode where their 801 hp dyno mule had the dyno msd 8 or 9 go bad ,they installed a hei in its place and motor made same hp haha
To add the only reason to run a msd is if you want to pair it with a start retard or rev limiter among other reasons
Thanks Joe, helps to reinforce my point.AG
very nice down to earth genuine people. nice video... !
Nice compliment. thanks very much!.AG
Unity Motorsport s Garage tested a DUI against a Progression Ignition. The Progression show noticeable gains. I’d like to see it up against an MSD. I’m running a Progression Ignition distributor in my sbc. Switched it from a MSD HEI. Immediately notice a crisper exhaust note.
Thanks for your comments John. AG
I used to be involved in hydroplane racing. Since my background is in electronics, some friends asked me to look at their MSD parts. I was able to look at some HEI MSD replacement modules and some MSD box for magnetos. The very first thing I have noticed is how cheap, cheap, cheap the printed circuit boards were. I was trying to remove defective parts and the copper tracks would come off from the circuit board.
I have salvaged many parts from trashed printed circuit board, over the years, but I’ve never seen such cheap Printed Circuit Board.
For the price we pay, for these products, I would expect top notch quality design. Unfortunately, it’s not the case.
Thanks Clark. That is great information. Thanks for sharing.AG
I had an accel hei module and coil. The module went bad in two weeks. Switched to DUI and it’s worked flawlessly. You only light the charge once and even points isn’t going lose power. If there was power to be gained by MSDs claims all the OEs would do it
Good point Jo, thanks for commenting.AG
I found on reading the strap on sparkplug.The closer to the bottom of the strap the better.If it starts to the threads you are pushing it to much advance are burning at the on the strap.For richness 1/8" from bottom of porcelain.Jet carb to get there.
Make's sense, thanks for the tips Paul.AG
The closer the more advanced ideal is on bend
Allen thanks for the shout out. I made a comment about not beating up customers engines on the dyno because they aren't full blown race engines and you don't want to break them. I got jumped on so I took it down maybe that's something you and Daryl can discuss with people.
Again great video man have a great day
Thanks Brian. I did see your comment and sorry I didn't get a chance to reply. There was nothing wrong with your comment. I have often said that the dyno is the ultimate torture test. If your engine survives 10-12 pulls on the dyno, it should last forever in the car, provided of course that you keep water and oil in it and don't over rev it. To me, that is just as important as the benefit we get from tuning.
You are going to have a great channel but you will find that UA-cam exposes you to thousands of people with widely varying points of view. i enjoy all constructive comments, even if they don't agree with me.
For those key board pirates that just want to slander me, i just ignore them and never have a policy to never respond. "No answer is a strong reply" AG
Well said I will keep that in mind
Two more points, don't take it personal and never take the bait. AG
Circle track stuff around here, you are not allowed a MSD! (Local racers!) We used Performance Distributors HEIs for decades! Those China ones may work, but I have never seen one last! Also the timing is almost always different between boxes! Even if they are identical! So make sure you double check the timing in the car!
Thanks Brian. Good point about checking timing in the car, I will be sure that it gets done. AG
Another great video AG! Love the family gathering and everyone's input including, the distributor comparison 👍
True. The China distributors do not last long. 2000 miles if you are lucky. Advance weights and the posts they mount on wear out quickly. Shaft bushings too.
Thanks for testing. I always loved HEI, but would prefer a crank trigger & one coil per cylinder for ultra reliability at high cylinder pressures & RPM. But it doesn't look right and isn't needed on most engines, especially street/strip type.
Thanks Terry, all good points.AG
Keeps posted on Mike's Racing Mr Gold.
Thanks Joel. Well it was a short season, just five races as he started midway in the schedule. 2 feature wins, 2 second place finishes and one third. Average finish 1.8. Mike also set fast time in all 5 qualifying sessions. During the off season I am planning to experiment with cam timing changes to soften the corners and increase the top end. We will keep you all posted on that process. Thanks for your interest. AG
I recently replaced an unknown year MSD HEI distributor that was giving me problems with an Amazon unit I got for $65 USD with shipping. They were identical after taking both apart to swap the module for the pigtail to connect the CDI box. I mean IDENTICAL. Runs exactly the same but isn’t spraying oil
Good info Hogiewan and helps to make my point.AG
Excellent Video guys!!
Thanks Bill. How about we video your next dyno day? AG
And if you're looking at those "cheap" HEI's take it apart and use high temp grease, on the shaft and CORRECT heat sink paste undrr the HEI module!! And swap out to a known Chevy drive gear. Chinesium ones might eat your cam gear!
I had one in my old street rod, the coil failed instantly never to work again, in my driveway while I was warming it up!
I just got one as a extra. Got it dirt cheap. The casting looks surprisingly clean and precise...., but that china gear is trash. Hell the entire hei was $30 a distributor cap at the part store costs more lol!
Good luck chasing the 🏁 Mike!! 🎉
Thanks Shane, the car is ready, i will be going up to the track this week. AG
The heads might flow 300cfm, but unless that intake has a ton of porting it won't flow even close to that. It would be lucky to flow 230cfm at the best port.
Other than that it's a very nice build. Thanks for sharing!
I`ve used proform carbs and had no propbems, I bought 5 proform HEI distributors and 4 of them failed in three months. They all died within 100 laps of one another, the 5th is in the shop and I use it on the run in stand cause I`m afraid to sell it. Your motor sounds good, torque is what you feel when ya push the loud pedal.
Thanks for your comments Ed.AG
Hei for the win!
Thanks Justin, they work well for sure.AG
GOLD.....good job dad! You got me all choked up and wondering who the smoking hot blonde is in the thumbnail. No offense....I'm only appreciating the obvious.
Good job Gold!
Thanks for watching and commenting Arturo. Family is precious. AG
The big smile on Mike's face the entire video told me all I need to know!
But actually, I have a bet going right now after I told someone that on a 1974 & older Chevy V8 points dizzy, the number 1 terminal on the dizzy actually faces number 2 cylinder..
Am I correct Allen Gold??
i don't know, i can't remember. i think the standard practice now is to have the rotor aimed at #1 cylinder, at least that is how i do it. AG
How much gain from the 650 to the 850? nice video.
Thanks for the question 39. We only made one pull with the 650 at33 degrees timing. It made 482HP 491 Torque. The rings were not broken in yet. AG
What viscosity oil do you use in the street engines you build? Way back in the day, Valvoline, who was sponsoring Neil Bonnet's NASCAR car, they claimed that they were using off the shelf 10W30 oil??? Thanks.
Thanks Clark, really good question. The thinner the better to make HP, as long as the bearing clearances are sufficient to maintain oil pressure. Remember if you have a flat tappet cam, you must use oil with ZDDP, otherwise 10W30 of the shelf is fine. AG
You seem like guys that could test and get use out of my beta, simplified, P59 base tune. The video you want is "Want go kart EFI? Junkyard car parts (P59 ECU)". More info in descriptions of most of my videos. Meant for open loop only with as few sensors as reasonably possible. Map, crank, cam, IAT, and TPS sensors, nothing more. The TPS is a quirk of the operating system of that specific ECU. Tieing TPS pin high and maxing self test values should also work; haven't tested that yet. I'm betting there are after market LS coils that compare to MSD.
Thanks for the info Marc. AG
Hi Alan, just wondering if you'd be able to upload a video of your son racing? I like your work...👍
thanks Adam. FOr sure, we will try to do that. It might be a while, he still has lots to do.AG
I have had mixed results with the cheap hei. I think Hei type ignitions are fantastic. I have worked on 3 and owned 2 of the Amazon/ebay Post Covid units with erratic advance curves that couldn’t be tuned out and shafts that snap in the body or non standard hei components and they fail. I have also had dozens of pre covid units that were flawless.
Thanks for sharing your experiences. AG
You have a handsome, well mannered son.
What a nice compliment Mattew. I am pretty proud of him and i will pass it on. AG
Nice engine test & Ignition comparison info !!....Ignition spark Advertising Looks so Dramatic but at this Relatively modest (6000) engine speed range application no surprise Any good working ignition has No hp or torque Performance improvements....Even the old '60's Chevy factory Stock dual Points distributor & Coil easily handles this engines Ignition demands !! ...... 3000 revs & above needs Only 1 1/2 way decent good Spark to produce the max power...Most over-Priced Aftermarket Ignition systems are 99% Unproven advertising Hype & unfortunately the #1 area customer performance $$$$ wasted on with no Real performance gains.....Compared to original factory stock dual Points distributor only Maintenance between Tune-ups is Improved.....Thx for showing....
Thank you Tom, all very good points. We were doing fine with points. In the seventies i had a C/MP car. It had a Mallory 4 lobe distributor with two sets of points. One set fired 4 cylinders and the other fired the other four. I think the idea was to improve dwell. It worked great to 8000 RPM, but i had to put it in a distributor machine weekly to keep it adjusted correctly. That said, my Z-28 has single points ACDelco D112P and they worked good past 7000RPM. AG
You can use an HEI module with an MSD distributor if you know how to wire it. Pretty simple.
Very interesting, thanks for that info. I have an MSD box with an HEI distributor. AG
Question: I may have missed it in the video or the comments but how do you address the amount of mechanical advance that the HEI has? I bought a $99 special as a test rig for the Camaro (trying to troubleshoot a misfire) but I found that, as with all HEI's I've had my hands that there's no practical way to limit the 19° total mechanical/centrifugal available. Welding and grinding the advance slot is the only method I've come across.
MSD, as most folks know, have various diameter limiting bushings.
FTR: Looking at a total advance of 34° (initial plus centrifugal excluding vacuum )but I run 20° of initial typically. That means the HEI has to be limited to 14°. Interested in your and your subscribers approach. Thanks as always Mr G.
Thanks for the question Kevin. I have never needed to limit the total mechanical advance on these distributors. I have used different springs only to change the rate of advance. With manifold vacuum connected, actual advance at idle is in the range of 40 degrees. on the dyno, we do not use vacuum advance. Typically the dyno picks up about 3000RPM and all the advance is in by then anyway.
If any viewers out there can help Kevin with this question, please weigh in. AG
@@goldsgarage8236 Thanks very much for the reply Alan. I'd be interested to hear any input.
May I ask where you set your initial advance and how much the vacuum can contributes at idle? What is your total at 3000 RPM (I'll understand if that's your trade secret though!)
So as to keep it clear, the last 355 with too much cam and too little CR (from an ideal standpoint) likes to idle with 30-32° advance (16-18 initial +14 vacuum). It would probably have taken the 40° similar to yours but I left it at that. I use manifold vacuum which IIRC adds another 14° and is all in about 2" Hg below idle vacuum. It works superbly.
I suppose one workaround with an HEI would be an approach similar to yours although I have to assume that your vacuum advance is a greater amount than the 14 mine produces.
Thanks as always.
Thanks Kevin. I set total advance (all in just over 3000RPM) wherever it makes the best power and let the initial be wherever that it is. Usually about 16 degrees without the manifold vacuum connected. Then with it VA connected and at full vacuum, advance at idle will be about 40 degrees. The engine needs lots of advance at idle as there is little cylinder pressure and the flame travels slowly. As soon as you crack the throttle, vacuum drops out and the mechanical takes over. Hope this helps and thanks for contributing to my channel/AG
@@goldsgarage8236 Thanks very much for that Alan.
While I had a decent ignition curve for the previous engine, this new iteration will require something different. On top of that, I'm no sure how long the old and ancient MSD distributor will last. Enter HEI. Either that or I'll give a go at Progressive Ignition's fully programmable unit.
Thanks again.
Where are you guys out in Springfield? I've been living out there for the last few years. Having some major problems and im Looking into scrapping a whole holley sniper fuel injection setup that just died. Maybe your guys have a full carb and ignition setup that will work for me?
Thanks for the question Dan. Watters Dyno service is on Springfield line in Springfield Ontario, about 1/2 hour southeast of London. I am located in London Ontario. AG
@goldsgarage8236 interesting, I have never known of a dyno service in the area. And can't even find a buisness associated with the name. I did however find an old buisness card with an address on lyons that I drive by daily. Do they have a current phone number you could send me to get in touch or I may just stop by and knock on some doors and see what they can do for me.
I replaced an ancient Mallory Dual Point distributor with a $62 Ebay HEI , works perfect, is it as good as the MSD ? Don't know , but it does everything perfectly, about 2 years and 16,500 miles, 6700 rpm max.
Thanks Jalimamba, Good affirmation of the ignition test.AG
Is there a build sheet or video? Ive had a 406 (5.7 rod) in my 95 3/4ton nv4500/3.42. I just needed a engine in there quickly. Was my daily at the time. But I'd LOVE to get those numbers in a lighter truck or car.
It was balanced with a flex plate but using flywheel now. Been running a HEI and since the TBI is only around 18psi, ive been running a return style regulator for almost 7yrs. And with a EX274 cam, it makes pretty decent mileage!
I also scored a pair of Dart Iron Eagle 230 iron heads sitting that i could use.
Let me know!
HEI distributors have been good from their inception. But most need the correct curve for the application. I think they look 'ok' on a race car or what they originally come on, but they are just so damn ugly where they didn't originally come equipped. IMO.
I recurved a lot of HEI distributors that were used for oval track classes that required “stock” distributors. Putting in a appropriate curve makes the car jump off the turns and that’s where a pass is initiated . A stock adv curve makes the car lazy off the turns.
What brand HEI? There's quite a few different ones on Amazon. I'm seeing quite a few in the $60 range
A-team performance?
Thanks Brian, The brand I have used mostly is BRAVEX Super High Performance. It is advertised at 65,000V and 7500RPM. AG
HEI here, along with millions of Ford, GM and Chrysler engines, oi oi oi
Thanks Jim.AG
I was not pleased with the timing curve inconsistency with a cheap hei I had while waiting on my DUI
Thanks for commenting Dooman.AG
Above 3500 rpm there is no more multiple spark discharge
Thanks James, that is correct. AG
Do you have the link for this Amazon distributor? I need a distributor gear that is nitrided. Does this $75 distributor have that. Great video
Thank you.
Most of these distributors have a melanized gear, but you should check it out. If you just type distributor in the Amazon search window, choices will come up for different applications. AG
@goldsgarage8236 Thank you. I learn more information every time I watch your channel.
Hei is good for street. Not so much for drag racing.
Thanks for watching and commenting Vernon.AG
Had a buddy that had a fuel altered small block Chevy single, 1,200, CFM carb, was only running 11s in the quarter mile with the MSD,, Sent the MSD back to the factory to have it checked,, factory said it was okay,,He put it back in the car only ran 11s,,,again,, put his Accel distributor dual point with the race points,, Then ran 6s,, in the quarter mile....
Wow, that is a big difference. Thanks for the info V1 AG
Sbc running 6’s in qtr mile!? You bumped your head!
Unfortunately, you forgot to mention Knock-Off or Copy etc etc. Your boarding on endorsing using Copy Products, all this leads to in encouraging more more Copy Products, it doesn't make Racing cheaper or Maintenace, just a hole heap of trouble when it fails.
Thanks for your comments James. Gold's Garage strives to provide viewers factual, real life information that they can apply. We do not endorse or condemn anything. The dyno helps to validate information. Application of information is at the viewers discretion. The MSD ignition is still in Mikes race car. AG
Suprised Turdeau lets you even run an engine like that up there
That's funny! Thanks for commenting. AG
Hope that son and cute daughter doesn't drive ford's...lol
Hey Eeh??
Hey Eeh back. AG
1 2 more hp for MSD
3 hp less actually
I can tell you that them cheap distributors will fail. The electronics are junk.. HEI control modules even if good only live so long but the Chinese crap will fail in a year!
Thanks for your comment Larry. AG
Mine Amazon HEI is going strong almost 3 years now
Way too much blah blah blah, dont have time to listen to it !!
Thanks for your comment Peggy. I have a suggestion, if you don't have time to listen to it, just don't listen to it. AG
too boring
MSD $600 ignition and LOST 3 hp??
Thanks Jimmie. i don't think i really lost anything. Probably just a variation in testing.AG