Difference is D’Angelo actually grew and matured as a character, and he was running the pit like a well oiled machine compared to what Ronnie Moe was doing, Cheese never grew as a character he was the same throughout the show
That's how you know The Wire is one of the GOATs. The show ended its run like 15 years ago and people are still making commentary about it and I'm still clicking. 😁
@@celestialnubian to be honest dude i agree with u, but part of me thinks the reason it gets talked about so much online and analyized is because of the quality of the writing. And they didnt fuck up the shows characters arcs, for an extra season or to keep them alive cuz of their popularity, look at how omar got taken out damm. That hurts still. So its good show to do analysis on because their real in sense. The characters.
Joe knew exactly what kind of person Marlo was. And Joe knew that they needed someone like Marlo to fight the wars when negotiations didn't work. He just thought that he could keep Marlo under control.
Avon the only one who saw through Marlo!! Avon knew it was no reasoning with Marlo!! Co op should’ve put their muscle together and got Chris and Marlo at the same time!! Once he got the connect they couldn’t k.ll then
@@MarcillaSmith Joe was so dumb to let Marlo meet the Greeks!! Slim tried to tell Joe that it was a bad Idea to meet the connect but for some Joe always showed weakness when dealing with Marlo and he paid for dearly 🤷🏿♂️!
Joe played both sides of the street for so long, that he forgot that the cars could still run him over. In the shorts they did about some of the characters as children, Prop Joe sells stolen test answers to some kids, but when they break the deal, he had no problem selling the kids out (literally). So it's clear from the start that his survival instinct was based solely on best way to twist and profit off a situation, rather than fighting or running away. Which also explains why he is so calm at the end, he tries to cut a deal, but realizes there is no deal to be made, he never fights and he never runs, so he accepts that he simply can't make a deal.
Joe is great because he's not honorable at all. He's a fun kingpin because you can see that he's manipulating Stringer in season 2, sensing the weakness of the Barksdale organization with Avon in prison and most of their muscle with him or dead. Joe's all about the soft power of getting someone to agree with you, which lets you control them without having to go to war and get the attention of the police. It's why the co-op worked so well after Stringer died and Avon went back to prison, and why the other gangsters talked about missing Joe in the finale.
lol yeah, I didn't even book how he was looking to get his hooks into String, until a rewatch of season 2. He was good at sensing people's weakness and exploiting it, but he failed bad with Marlo.
He couldn't deal with pure chaos (Marlo) he was a master of manipulation and leading people on, but his flaw was that he always acted on the assumption people want things, not people do things because it's their nature (pure chaotic psychopath like Marlo)
That first scene with Sergei and Nick kind of foreshadowed Joe's end. Cheese was out of line to burn the car - take it as collateral, sure, but burning it was unnecessary - but Joe didn't see how Cheese had a penchant for cruelty and was untrustworthy.
@@KingTerry1001Joe would always let ppl know that was his sister's boy meaning that's the only reason I deal w/ him & also called him a "disappointment"!! Avon on the other hand let his sister talk him into keeping D close & not admitting he wasn't designed for that life.........IMO 🤔!!
No one in The Wire is completely clean, from the gangsters to the police and courts and politicians that have to address them, and Prop Joe manages to do some cold stuff to stay on top of the game. Still, I have to give him credit for something absolutely nobody else could do, be it Sobotka's union fight, Carcetti's time as mayor, McNulty's everything, Avon's whole elaborate operation, Colvin's work in Hamsterdam or with the education system, Stringer's efforts to build something legit, even Marlo's reputation. He built something better than what came before and it outlived his part in it.
@@coolpeople4287 Still reorganized things in that way, and was a more important co-founder to this specific one than Stringer. Much as he himself falls off for getting old and soft, he knew what the future of the game could look like.
"Buy for $1 sell for $2." Joe represented the same thing that Stringer did. He was a businessman in a world of gangsters. Stringer and Joe did not live by the sword, when the sword was all some knew (Marlo and Avon). Simon made this point in many interviews. Reform the game, at your own demise.
Prop Joe was the real businessman. Stringer got taken for a ride by multiple people including Joe. Joe only ever got beat by self defeating violent chaos. His nephew traded someone he could trust absolutely for the coldest murderer in the show. And Marlo traded a good business partner for 'the crown' that he held for only a month or two because his violence got him a police unit on his ass.
@@wanderlustly313Damn you're absolutely right. They too were put to rest as it resulted in ending their careers. This is why I treasure this show, the parallels of the stories being told, the similarities of the institutions represented, and how human nature ultimately prevails no matter what. "It ain't about right, fuck right, it's about money" - D'Angelo Barksdale.
@@victorsweet583he called Slim Charles a “sentimental mf” not sensitive. He killed Cheese “for Joe” aka his feelings. Slim knew Joe did what was best for business and helped keep everyone cliqued up and not have the murders and police around. He was of the old school and Slim Charles respected it and ran the Barksdale crew for Avon once String was gone.
The way Joe did old face Andre, the karma came back around and got him!! He tried to set Avon up too when he gave Omar Avons pager number with the codes!!
"Might as well dump 'em, get another" I like the way he strongly hinted to Andre to leave straight away. But he surely realises Andre's not the sharpest and won't pick up on his meaning.
YT ppl are pure evil they commit crime and murder because they can get away with it we do it for survival because we live in third world countries called ghettos.
I guess he's just a gangster. He's been a career Criminal for over 30 years in Baltimore. And he was the strongest gangster on the east side of Baltimore. Respect and fear made him that way.
Excellent work - Joe was a likeable character, but at the end of the day, day - Joe was the same violent criminal as Marlo - the difference is Joe is a true wolf in sheep's clothing/master manipulator - Marlo was straight forward, and wanted to be known as the wolf.
The way he gave up Andre was cold blooded... I hate Andre as a character but I wasn't cosigning Joe giving him up to Marlo.. what he did to Andre is why I didn't feel bad when cheese betrayed him
Great character. Intelligence counts, but ruthlessness and unscrupulousness are the main traits of the most successful ones on the board. The show depicted this perfectly with Joe. The one thing he did which I hated him for, was selling out poor Andre. But maybe he had no choice on that one. Man got his comeuppance tho. RIP
Honestly a really good and insightful analysis. I think what joe understood more than a lot of other high ranking players in the game was that information is key and your public image is just as important as your street rep. Presenting himself as a businessman and generally amicable person in his legal and illegal life made people much more likely to deal and have dealings with him, so naturally he was both in the loop and well connected. At the same time he was equally adept at the murderous and malicious tactics that were necessary to become established in that life. Which makes it all the more likely that his downfall would be a family member as mixing business with family seldom ends well in the long run. Combine that with his attempted tutelage of Marlo. Someone who was clearly of the newer, less rational generation that had been )comparatively) socially engineered to value human life less. I do think him trying that was more of a calculated attempt to make it so they weren’t outright enemies while keeping him close as it’s better to have some insight to a potential threat than none. At the end of the day Joe did a lot better and a lot worse than others.
Joe reminds me of John torrio in boardwalk empire. An act of a wise grand father as you said. Him trying to whack Al Capone and also him setting up Nucky to get whacked with Maranzano by Luciano is quite similar to Joe and Andre as he subtly warns Nucky to retire similarly to how Joe tells Andre that he should have went to New York or Philly for refuge
You can take Joe's comment to Nick as a kind act. If he was purely predatory he wouldn't warn Nick that he was a fool. With the exception of what he did to Andre, Joe has a code. He doesn't mess with citizens or with anyone who refuses to do a deal with him. But when he does a deal he keeps to it, and whatever deals he makes are almost always to his own advantage.
It's not an act. Joe has a bunch of murderous hooligans selling drugs for him who would have killed Nick and his cousin. Joe probably would not have even known about it.
Most evil shit Avon did was that business with the hot shots to take down the corrupt CO. Killed like 5 random people to reduce his sentence and get the CO off Bey’s ass. Butchie said it best: Avon’s father was plain evil, and the son ain’t better
I definitely think his character hadn't been fully thought out and planned in the first series which makes it hard to analyse that part of him. He was a devious gangster who was about business ahead of everything else. He was very ruthless and uncaring in circumstances that were detached from himself such as his dealing with Andre and trafficking the girls. But on the front he wanted less violence as he knew this is what got the cops involved and warring gangsters was bad for business.
He wasn't evil because it was in his nature, he was "evil" because that's simply the nature of the game. You're profiting off of the addiction & suffering of other people for personal gain & committing other crimes & possibly killing people when need be. Evil people don't have a code, Prop Joe did. Marlo on the contrary was pure evil from the heart. He was cunning & ruthless & was the type to kill people, even if they had no involvement in the game whatsoever, like when he killed that security guard.
Joe had a natural inclination to be devious. Like everyone else he just was a product of his environment, and Instead of brawn, intellect was his strength. It allowed him to navigate and be successful in the game.
Best Prop Joe scene ever. Omar walks in "Can you fix this Joe?" BONGGGGGG "What's the problem?" Omar pulls down on him with he Desert Eagle, "Ran out of time!" Yooo😂 that was colder than cold👏🏽
Prop Joe was not niave with marlow, he knew he had to try too get marlow to understand and to get him too understand, he had to show marlow how the “watch” works. Hoping that marlow will realize just how complicated and connected the business is with everything. Marlow just didn’t get the point, he was just looking at the $$. And this caused props life. But at least he tried.
'Im trying to buy it for one and sell it for two' Everything else was a means to an end. I dont know about evil, but certainly single minded, ruthless and driven.
Avon was hard. Stringer was smart. Marlow was cold. Prop Joe was wise. Their individual perspective and strategy were consistent with their dominant traits. They did a great job of developing those characters and staying true. This show, like breaking bad or the shield, makes you relate to both the bad guys and the good guys.
The irony is there’s moments where they contradict their characters, (and in every case except for Avon, it screws them over) Avon’s whole deal with Cutty and the Sunday truce. Stringer being strung along by Joe and Clay Davis. Marlow being obsessed over image and rep. Joe making mistakes out of hubris. The *only* one who didn’t get fucked by acting inconsistently was Avon, and its fitting, since he’s the one that says “how you never gonna be a little slow, be a little late”.
Joe was a back stabbing snake. He was in the game but didn't move like Avon who respected the code. Joe was no different than Stringer, their hearts bleed green. Personally, I believe once Marlo found out that Joe knew about the blind man, when Cheese gave up Butchie for the 50 racks, Joe’s days were numbered. I mean, ain't no telling what Cheese gave up before Marlo put Joe down. Marlo at that point knew Joe was using him. The fact that he robbed his partners when Omar robbed the stash and made everyone pay for his looses tells it all. It was beyond poetic when Marlo confirmed Cheese gave him up right before the head shot. Beautiful
I think what most people don't understand about proposition joe. In the wire you can tell the years going by between the seasons and honestly proposition joe was growing as a person and starting to calm down and not be as quick to violence especially when it can be linked back to him and relying on more of his wit. Also, showing why cheese started to be disappointed in joe approach to things. I guarantee you cheese has seen the more brutal side of proposition joe, which is why in later seasons, he betrays joe being fed up with the more diplomatic approach joe takes when cheese knows they have the muscle and power to take over territories. To me, it's simple when Joe was younger he was a serious force, and over time, like in reality with real people, he's gotten more subtle with age. If cheese didnt rat and set up prop joe, joe would have most likely died later by marlo and crew.
If I had describe Joe from a recovering addict respeactive. A dealer is selling the poison, and the addict has the complusion to take the substance again and again, not taking responsblity for set discussion. The dealer has a hand, but the victim always has to be one self.
Prop joe was the rook on the chess board hes a major piece that can force a checkmate on the enemy king without other pieces the rook has long range movement him being a eastside player and the rook can be used in offense and defense the wire was simply a game of chess played on the street
i definitely see where u getting at. i think the best way to break down joes character is from that origin scene when they show him as a kid. all n all he uses the tools he was gifted with to get what he wants out of life. his age with slims moral sense ect made for a great thing. in a chatic world/backdrop those to TOGETHER made sense of a game we all know is straight ruthless.
Glad to see this content. I do think the argument in the middle, that Joe was a drug dealer, hence evil by nature, was the weakest of the bunch. Being a drug dealer was table stakes in The Wire; the fact that we could see the entire moral spectrum, from practically a saint to essentially a sadistic serial killer, within the different characters who were all drug dealers, seemed to be one of the points of The Wire. I do think it’s the mark of a great show like The Wire that by the end, the later seasons, the Big Bads from the early seasons seem quaint and almost cuddly by comparison to the depravity and moral decay of the later villains; and yet, as this video hints at, those earlier Big Bads we all get nostalgia for by the end were very possibly just as bad at earlier points in their careers. I’m always down for more Wire content, keep it coming!
Ill nevwe get tired of your TheWire and Sopranos vidoes! I understand why you need to expand, but please, never stop making these. And if you want another series to check out, i recommend Snowfall
A hustler is a hustler! Always looking for the long gain and hitting as many small safe gains on the way to it! But there's not 401ks and retirements. And the few who made it you'll never know their names
I think one of the things that I took from the Wire is that there isn’t an pure antagonist and that’s why it’s told from the perspective of the dealers and the police. Who’s an antagonist and who’s a protagonist is all based on your perspective. Prop Joe was the way he was cause that’s what it had to be. The game is the game and him, the other dealers and the police were players like everyone else.
Prop Joe reminds me of the WW1 British realization that the more "experienced" officers/units were, the less aggressive they tended to be. I forget the exact term but I think it was something backhanded along the lines of "getting wise" (in reference to a growing hesitation to send men/run towards their deaths). Prop Joe was an OG that had seen enough of the violence to get wise to it.. But that made him extremely ineffective against the younger more aggressive "unwise" Marlo because in Prop Joe's mind it only made sense for Marlo to go along.. He had gotten used to dealing with other "wise" OGs and thus had forgotten what that kind of young hunger really looked like and how far it could go.. Avon had been around just long enough to wisen up enough to play civil, but was still young/in tune enough to understand that sometimes extreme ignorance/violence is the only real play.
I still need to rewatch The Wire, like properly rewatch it because when u first watched it so many scenes were cut out on comcast demand back in the day.
Buy for a dollar, sell for two. Nothing bad, just business. And dont forget how Prop Joe save life of old toaster. I always think about Prop Joe like a middle between Avon and Stringer. He is old School, but more modern than Avon. He is doing that for money, but not so greedy as Stringer. (at least we dont see any sign of this rich, like big house or expensive flat). Maybe his ultimate goal was Number One place, but via authority and connections, not killing or frighten everyone else. And of course he is bad, he is criminal.
Nah his ending was perfect lol him and that co op spent all that time complaining about Avon.It came back and bit him in the ass lol that's why I'm glad Marlo did what he did
The timing of the world is funny sometimes…Im going through my 5th rewatch of the series (just started szn 5) and as Ive gone through it this time, I found myself hating Joe a lot more than before. Tryna flip the 20on a dollar to 30 just to make a profit off a shipment you setup to be lost in the first place is next level slimey. Makes sense that his arrogance thinking he could tame Marlo gets him done in the long run. Marlo was smart to put him down, point blank. Good video, keep it up👍🏼
I was mad when Prop Joe got killed. Marlo had to go after that in my eyes even after he killed Bodie. I missed the old days like he said LOL. Marlo was a smart cold hearted young dude
@@millionairesdreamassociation The only cat that was hating was Avon but he was fresh out of jail so he was weak! The OGs was trying to get him to Co Op band together how is that hate ?. Prop Joe gave him the plug to clean his money and shared the Greeks. Marlo wanted everything all to himself. Greed!
@@millionairesdreamassociation So who is wrong in this? You said they was hating and i said they tried to Co op now you saying its their fault for not hating . So in reality Marlo was the hater.
Joe, was slimy and slick. Marlo and Avon knew that, they saw through his scams. He was going to eventually cross Marlo once Marlo was no use to him, and he was just using Marlo, and and thought he would outwit Marlo, but Slim warned him to watch Marlo.
Great video. I would just point out that Joe and Andre weren’t friends. Andre was a semi-independent west side dealer who wasn’t a member of the co-op. He only went to Joe because he assumed he had no connections to Marlo being from the east side. What he did to Andre was extremely cutthroat and ruthless, but not pure evil seeing as he didn’t really have any loyalty or connection to Andre to betray. He even told him that he should have been looking for refugee in New York or Phili instead of the east side of Baltimore.
![[Extendo] The Downfall Of Mayor Royce #TheWire #HBO #SceneRemix #SlowItDown #SitItOut](/img/n.gif)
Joe and Avon's biggest downfall was putting their nephews on💯
Great catch!
@@downtoearthproductions all this time and I never thought of that yet it was in our face the whole time
Family and business should always be kept separate, you would assume men in their position would understand this rule.
Difference was Avon had hope for D but Joe always thought cheese was a "disappointment" & always let ppl know that was his sister's boy😐!!
Difference is D’Angelo actually grew and matured as a character, and he was running the pit like a well oiled machine compared to what Ronnie Moe was doing, Cheese never grew as a character he was the same throughout the show
You know, Avon always said the co-op was nothing more than a glorified crew.
gay
😂😂😂😂😂
The co-op was a bit of a pozul if you ask me. MY connect, MY dope.
His appraiser his family
This never gets old 😃
That's how you know The Wire is one of the GOATs. The show ended its run like 15 years ago and people are still making commentary about it and I'm still clicking. 😁
15 years? It's just a kid?
@@kevinouellette5316 💥That's just your knee. 🤣
@@celestialnubianThat's genius 😂
Agreed. If only this new crop of shows were this good.
@@celestialnubian to be honest dude i agree with u, but part of me thinks the reason it gets talked about so much online and analyized is because of the quality of the writing. And they didnt fuck up the shows characters arcs, for an extra season or to keep them alive cuz of their popularity, look at how omar got taken out damm. That hurts still. So its good show to do analysis on because their real in sense. The characters.
Joe knew exactly what kind of person Marlo was. And Joe knew that they needed someone like Marlo to fight the wars when negotiations didn't work. He just thought that he could keep Marlo under control.
Avon the only one who saw through Marlo!! Avon knew it was no reasoning with Marlo!! Co op should’ve put their muscle together and got Chris and Marlo at the same time!! Once he got the connect they couldn’t k.ll then
100% When Marlo demanded to see the Greeks, he needed to go.
He underestimated Marlo & the fact he kept his ear to the street like Joe did!! Remember Marlo told snoop & Chris Omar had been taken out 🤔!!
@@MarcillaSmith Joe was so dumb to let Marlo meet the Greeks!! Slim tried to tell Joe that it was a bad Idea to meet the connect but for some Joe always showed weakness when dealing with Marlo and he paid for dearly 🤷🏿♂️!
The game is the game
The whole scheme to “help” Stringer with his product problem was to drive a wedge between him and Avon. He knew exactly what he was doing
And get a cheaper price, and get move into Westside, and get revenge for the ball game, and get rid of omar...what a proposition
And Avon knew too he told Stringer no because you give Joe an inch Joe is going to take the whole block Avon "had no love for them east side bitches"
@@kumarg3598 Revenge for a ball game that his team won?
@olavrell oh. I forgot. My bad.
He definitely was the main component to that "organization" falling apart.......IMO 🤔!!
Joe played both sides of the street for so long, that he forgot that the cars could still run him over.
In the shorts they did about some of the characters as children, Prop Joe sells stolen test answers to some kids, but when they break the deal, he had no problem selling the kids out (literally). So it's clear from the start that his survival instinct was based solely on best way to twist and profit off a situation, rather than fighting or running away. Which also explains why he is so calm at the end, he tries to cut a deal, but realizes there is no deal to be made, he never fights and he never runs, so he accepts that he simply can't make a deal.
Where can I find these shorts of them as children? Never heard of them before your comment!
That made him expendable too
Joe is great because he's not honorable at all. He's a fun kingpin because you can see that he's manipulating Stringer in season 2, sensing the weakness of the Barksdale organization with Avon in prison and most of their muscle with him or dead. Joe's all about the soft power of getting someone to agree with you, which lets you control them without having to go to war and get the attention of the police. It's why the co-op worked so well after Stringer died and Avon went back to prison, and why the other gangsters talked about missing Joe in the finale.
lol yeah, I didn't even book how he was looking to get his hooks into String, until a rewatch of season 2. He was good at sensing people's weakness and exploiting it, but he failed bad with Marlo.
He couldn't deal with pure chaos (Marlo) he was a master of manipulation and leading people on, but his flaw was that he always acted on the assumption people want things, not people do things because it's their nature (pure chaotic psychopath like Marlo)
@@Grandmaster-Kush Kind of like Walt trying to do business with psychos like Tuco in breaking bad
@@Grandmaster-KushMarlo always craved power and reputation. For some reason, Prop Joe didn't see that.
@@TTJJCC joe was a bit out of touch with the up and coming youth. Avon knew better and would have finished it early if Stringer didn't snitch.
You forgot when Joe told Herc he and Burrell went to high school together and that Burrell was "stone stupid"
Borko was asking after you, he thinks the world of you.
Oh, mister New-York!
Who ?? His father was hit by a truck right ?
@@wookieboss2643 It was a major collision
Apparently it's gotta be now, he's in one of his moods
He’s got a right to a lot of things right now
shame to let a good toaster get away over a frayed cord
Prop shoulda stuck with the toasters , imagine being caught short at his shop like he was . Player got no game
@@wookieboss2643he was caught at his house . When he was killed
Put $10 on it 😂
My grandfather was the first coloured man on the block to own his own toaster. That means something. Something you youngins lost
@@atomicstone93 holy shit ahhaah
That first scene with Sergei and Nick kind of foreshadowed Joe's end. Cheese was out of line to burn the car - take it as collateral, sure, but burning it was unnecessary - but Joe didn't see how Cheese had a penchant for cruelty and was untrustworthy.
Maybe because Cheese was his nephew same as Avon and D'Angelo. How Avon ignored signs from D'Angelo same as Joe ignored signs from Cheese.
@@KingTerry1001Joe would always let ppl know that was his sister's boy meaning that's the only reason I deal w/ him & also called him a "disappointment"!! Avon on the other hand let his sister talk him into keeping D close & not admitting he wasn't designed for that life.........IMO 🤔!!
Joe saw it. That's why he referred to him more as "my sister's boy" instead of "my nephew." He was just all about family first, right or wrong.
I agree completly, he's cold blooded and uses charm and persuasion to draw people in.
"Joe is the epitome of a wolf in sheep's clothing."
No one in The Wire is completely clean, from the gangsters to the police and courts and politicians that have to address them, and Prop Joe manages to do some cold stuff to stay on top of the game. Still, I have to give him credit for something absolutely nobody else could do, be it Sobotka's union fight, Carcetti's time as mayor, McNulty's everything, Avon's whole elaborate operation, Colvin's work in Hamsterdam or with the education system, Stringer's efforts to build something legit, even Marlo's reputation. He built something better than what came before and it outlived his part in it.
Ole Joe was nobodies dummy. But he didn't invent co-ops.
@@coolpeople4287 Still reorganized things in that way, and was a more important co-founder to this specific one than Stringer. Much as he himself falls off for getting old and soft, he knew what the future of the game could look like.
@jacobkakyoin6882 Yeah, he was crafty.
I think Kima is clean.
@stevenbrown9212 Right! There were individual cops that were clean. But, the police force in general was crooked.
"Buy for $1 sell for $2." Joe represented the same thing that Stringer did. He was a businessman in a world of gangsters. Stringer and Joe did not live by the sword, when the sword was all some knew (Marlo and Avon). Simon made this point in many interviews. Reform the game, at your own demise.
Yes! Bunny and Daniels also were punished for trying to change the Game.
Prop Joe was the real businessman. Stringer got taken for a ride by multiple people including Joe. Joe only ever got beat by self defeating violent chaos. His nephew traded someone he could trust absolutely for the coldest murderer in the show. And Marlo traded a good business partner for 'the crown' that he held for only a month or two because his violence got him a police unit on his ass.
@@wanderlustly313Damn you're absolutely right. They too were put to rest as it resulted in ending their careers. This is why I treasure this show, the parallels of the stories being told, the similarities of the institutions represented, and how human nature ultimately prevails no matter what. "It ain't about right, fuck right, it's about money" - D'Angelo Barksdale.
"The game is the game"
He actually said “Buy for $1 sell for twe.” With a Baltimore accent. Lol I caught that.
"That was for Joe!"
Sensitive mf!!😂
@@victorsweet583he called Slim Charles a “sentimental mf” not sensitive. He killed Cheese “for Joe” aka his feelings.
Slim knew Joe did what was best for business and helped keep everyone cliqued up and not have the murders and police around. He was of the old school and Slim Charles respected it and ran the Barksdale crew for Avon once String was gone.
Evil yes pure evil no
Agreed
The way Joe did old face Andre, the karma came back around and got him!! He tried to set Avon up too when he gave Omar Avons pager number with the codes!!
@@Reese8531 w comment
"Might as well dump 'em, get another"
I like the way he strongly hinted to Andre to leave straight away. But he surely realises Andre's not the sharpest and won't pick up on his meaning.
YT ppl are pure evil they commit crime and murder because they can get away with it we do it for survival because we live in third world countries called ghettos.
He was playing with fire trying to manipulate Marlo. He got Omar to rob the card game to get Marlo lol
I guess he's just a gangster. He's been a career Criminal for over 30 years in Baltimore. And he was the strongest gangster on the east side of Baltimore. Respect and fear made him that way.
The structure of the organization he setup is the reason for his longevity in the game 😐!!
I never caught on to that last part with Joe gettin in to Human Trafficking
When Joe sold out the shopkeeper I knew he was pure slime.
Old Faced Andre
Maryland is a small state, when Prop Joe moved in he tipped it over
When Joe went into the woods, the bears hid their food
When Joe hauls ass, he has to make two trips.
I like a drug dealer you can grab a hold of
1:36 pause
😂😂😂
No
😂
Shit threw me all the way off 😂
😂😂
Excellent work - Joe was a likeable character, but at the end of the day, day - Joe was the same violent criminal as Marlo - the difference is Joe is a true wolf in sheep's clothing/master manipulator - Marlo was straight forward, and wanted to be known as the wolf.
Well said. Joe was a pure politician, Marlo was nothing but a gangster and wanted you to know it
Prop Joed reminded me of gheddafi. Hated by most on the surface but once he was gone they realized he was the glue to a shitty situation
Excellent comparison
Gheddafi is only hated by Americans, we here in the Caribbean love him
In Africa Ghaddafi is loved as well.
@@jayyy1677 American government. We had no issue with him keeping the savages in check.
The way he gave up Andre was cold blooded... I hate Andre as a character but I wasn't cosigning Joe giving him up to Marlo.. what he did to Andre is why I didn't feel bad when cheese betrayed him
I really love the way you use the accents and sayings from the show! This was awesome and I really enjoyed this, thanks!😂😄😂
Butchie knew Prop Joe was evil too when he set up Omar I believe him when he said he would delete Niko and Ziggy if it wasn't for Sergi too
Great character. Intelligence counts, but ruthlessness and unscrupulousness are the main traits of the most successful ones on the board. The show depicted this perfectly with Joe. The one thing he did which I hated him for, was selling out poor Andre. But maybe he had no choice on that one. Man got his comeuppance tho. RIP
Excellent analysis
I agree. Plus, Joe tippin' off Omar about the card game was what lead to Andre's situation.
Kharma was a big fat elephant for Joe😂😢
Honestly a really good and insightful analysis. I think what joe understood more than a lot of other high ranking players in the game was that information is key and your public image is just as important as your street rep. Presenting himself as a businessman and generally amicable person in his legal and illegal life made people much more likely to deal and have dealings with him, so naturally he was both in the loop and well connected. At the same time he was equally adept at the murderous and malicious tactics that were necessary to become established in that life. Which makes it all the more likely that his downfall would be a family member as mixing business with family seldom ends well in the long run. Combine that with his attempted tutelage of Marlo. Someone who was clearly of the newer, less rational generation that had been )comparatively) socially engineered to value human life less. I do think him trying that was more of a calculated attempt to make it so they weren’t outright enemies while keeping him close as it’s better to have some insight to a potential threat than none. At the end of the day Joe did a lot better and a lot worse than others.
The 2nd best video you've made in my opinion. I never noticed the trafficking connection until you brought it up.
Slim was the only "good guy" in the whole show
Joe was a bit of pozuul if you ask me. MY co-op, MY connect.
What's a pozuul?
He was an old school guy. Very allegorical.
Bro, I love your quotes from the show! You recite them as if you are just carrying conversation!😀😀
Watching this a 100+ times , it's gonna up and Articulate ya words in conversations lmfaoo
I always enjoy it when you quote lines from the show in order to explain the story ,awesome!
Joe reminds me of John torrio in boardwalk empire. An act of a wise grand father as you said. Him trying to whack Al Capone and also him setting up Nucky to get whacked with Maranzano by Luciano is quite similar to Joe and Andre as he subtly warns Nucky to retire similarly to how Joe tells Andre that he should have went to New York or Philly for refuge
What Joe didn’t understand about Marlo & the new ways of the game was, the thing about the old days they the old days
Improvise adapt and overcome at the highest form in this show😂
Marlo made up his mind 5 minutes ago. So he's gonna do what he's gotta do
Prop Joe didn't do nothing but buy for dollar and sell for two
For tew
like the Devil would whisper: a proposition might fall kindly on your ear...
I love how this guy breaks stuff down, these reviews give me a whole new appreciation of the show
You can take Joe's comment to Nick as a kind act. If he was purely predatory he wouldn't warn Nick that he was a fool. With the exception of what he did to Andre, Joe has a code. He doesn't mess with citizens or with anyone who refuses to do a deal with him. But when he does a deal he keeps to it, and whatever deals he makes are almost always to his own advantage.
It's not an act. Joe has a bunch of murderous hooligans selling drugs for him who would have killed Nick and his cousin. Joe probably would not have even known about it.
Most evil shit Avon did was that business with the hot shots to take down the corrupt CO. Killed like 5 random people to reduce his sentence and get the CO off Bey’s ass. Butchie said it best: Avon’s father was plain evil, and the son ain’t better
I agree, that was worse. Five random ppl sacrificed for some shit that had nothing to do with them.
That was his coldest. Right up there with having Bodie kill Wallace, sending kids to kill other kids.
2:41 nicely done on the Bmore accent there 👍
I definitely think his character hadn't been fully thought out and planned in the first series which makes it hard to analyse that part of him.
He was a devious gangster who was about business ahead of everything else. He was very ruthless and uncaring in circumstances that were detached from himself such as his dealing with Andre and trafficking the girls.
But on the front he wanted less violence as he knew this is what got the cops involved and warring gangsters was bad for business.
Excellent analysis, man.
I love how you weave the show's dialogue and the accents throughout.
Shieeeet. That was tew good. 😅
He wasn't evil because it was in his nature, he was "evil" because that's simply the nature of the game. You're profiting off of the addiction & suffering of other people for personal gain & committing other crimes & possibly killing people when need be. Evil people don't have a code, Prop Joe did. Marlo on the contrary was pure evil from the heart. He was cunning & ruthless & was the type to kill people, even if they had no involvement in the game whatsoever, like when he killed that security guard.
Man, just buy for a dollar, sell for two. They all should have taken the Charlie Sollers route.
My favorite Prop Joe moment was when he suggested Marlo steal the camera to find out what organization was onto him.
Joe had a natural inclination to be devious. Like everyone else he just was a product of his environment, and Instead of brawn, intellect was his strength. It allowed him to navigate and be successful in the game.
Good stuff prop Joe was supercool the fact he is so level-headed and calculating he could go dark and make some serious mischief
Joe could be chill and hang in the background for one reason. He had the best connect and used it wisely until he met Marlo.
Best Prop Joe scene ever. Omar walks in "Can you fix this Joe?" BONGGGGGG "What's the problem?" Omar pulls down on him with he Desert Eagle, "Ran out of time!" Yooo😂 that was colder than cold👏🏽
Just one of many great characters in the greatest show ever. I remember watching season 1 in my last week on grade 12. Oh the memories...
Prop Joe was not niave with marlow, he knew he had to try too get marlow to understand and to get him too understand, he had to show marlow how the “watch” works. Hoping that marlow will realize just how complicated and connected the business is with everything. Marlow just didn’t get the point, he was just looking at the $$. And this caused props life. But at least he tried.
'Im trying to buy it for one and sell it for two'
Everything else was a means to an end. I dont know about evil, but certainly single minded, ruthless and driven.
14:16 I’m glad you mentioned this. So many people missed it.
Avon was hard. Stringer was smart. Marlow was cold. Prop Joe was wise. Their individual perspective and strategy were consistent with their dominant traits. They did a great job of developing those characters and staying true. This show, like breaking bad or the shield, makes you relate to both the bad guys and the good guys.
The irony is there’s moments where they contradict their characters, (and in every case except for Avon, it screws them over)
Avon’s whole deal with Cutty and the Sunday truce.
Stringer being strung along by Joe and Clay Davis.
Marlow being obsessed over image and rep.
Joe making mistakes out of hubris.
The *only* one who didn’t get fucked by acting inconsistently was Avon, and its fitting, since he’s the one that says “how you never gonna be a little slow, be a little late”.
Pure evil? No, but definitely a snake.
Joe was a back stabbing snake. He was in the game but didn't move like Avon who respected the code. Joe was no different than Stringer, their hearts bleed green. Personally, I believe once Marlo found out that Joe knew about the blind man, when Cheese gave up Butchie for the 50 racks, Joe’s days were numbered. I mean, ain't no telling what Cheese gave up before Marlo put Joe down. Marlo at that point knew Joe was using him. The fact that he robbed his partners when Omar robbed the stash and made everyone pay for his looses tells it all. It was beyond poetic when Marlo confirmed Cheese gave him up right before the head shot. Beautiful
Your analysis and attention to detail is champion level.
I think what most people don't understand about proposition joe. In the wire you can tell the years going by between the seasons and honestly proposition joe was growing as a person and starting to calm down and not be as quick to violence especially when it can be linked back to him and relying on more of his wit. Also, showing why cheese started to be disappointed in joe approach to things. I guarantee you cheese has seen the more brutal side of proposition joe, which is why in later seasons, he betrays joe being fed up with the more diplomatic approach joe takes when cheese knows they have the muscle and power to take over territories. To me, it's simple when Joe was younger he was a serious force, and over time, like in reality with real people, he's gotten more subtle with age. If cheese didnt rat and set up prop joe, joe would have most likely died later by marlo and crew.
Slim Charles was smarter than Joe, he warn him that Marlo was a snake ..
He was basically Penguin 😂
If I had describe Joe from a recovering addict respeactive. A dealer is selling the poison, and the addict has the complusion to take the substance again and again, not taking responsblity for set discussion. The dealer has a hand, but the victim always has to be one self.
The number of Easter eggs and quotes from the series from different characters intertwine this entire video is magic
In real life, Joe would have seen Marlo coming.
Love how you added the Baltimore accent @2:40
Prop joe was the rook on the chess board hes a major piece that can force a checkmate on the enemy king without other pieces the rook has long range movement him being a eastside player and the rook can be used in offense and defense the wire was simply a game of chess played on the street
i definitely see where u getting at. i think the best way to break down joes character is from that origin scene when they show him as a kid. all n all he uses the tools he was gifted with to get what he wants out of life. his age with slims moral sense ect made for a great thing. in a chatic world/backdrop those to TOGETHER made sense of a game we all know is straight ruthless.
This is the only account I automatically “Like” before the audio even starts
Glad to see this content. I do think the argument in the middle, that Joe was a drug dealer, hence evil by nature, was the weakest of the bunch. Being a drug dealer was table stakes in The Wire; the fact that we could see the entire moral spectrum, from practically a saint to essentially a sadistic serial killer, within the different characters who were all drug dealers, seemed to be one of the points of The Wire.
I do think it’s the mark of a great show like The Wire that by the end, the later seasons, the Big Bads from the early seasons seem quaint and almost cuddly by comparison to the depravity and moral decay of the later villains; and yet, as this video hints at, those earlier Big Bads we all get nostalgia for by the end were very possibly just as bad at earlier points in their careers.
I’m always down for more Wire content, keep it coming!
Ill nevwe get tired of your TheWire and Sopranos vidoes! I understand why you need to expand, but please, never stop making these. And if you want another series to check out, i recommend Snowfall
A hustler is a hustler! Always looking for the long gain and hitting as many small safe gains on the way to it! But there's not 401ks and retirements. And the few who made it you'll never know their names
06:34 “& for a man to reach his status he’s gotta have more bodies on him than a 🇨🇳⚰️🪦cemetery. Oh no doubt.” Gotta me crying 😂😂😂😂😂 I’m dying
love the way you say Joe's quotes as Joe
I think one of the things that I took from the Wire is that there isn’t an pure antagonist and that’s why it’s told from the perspective of the dealers and the police. Who’s an antagonist and who’s a protagonist is all based on your perspective. Prop Joe was the way he was cause that’s what it had to be. The game is the game and him, the other dealers and the police were players like everyone else.
Watching season 1 and 2 you’d realize Prop Joe was really ruthless.
Prop Joe reminds me of the WW1 British realization that the more "experienced" officers/units were, the less aggressive they tended to be. I forget the exact term but I think it was something backhanded along the lines of "getting wise" (in reference to a growing hesitation to send men/run towards their deaths).
Prop Joe was an OG that had seen enough of the violence to get wise to it.. But that made him extremely ineffective against the younger more aggressive "unwise" Marlo because in Prop Joe's mind it only made sense for Marlo to go along.. He had gotten used to dealing with other "wise" OGs and thus had forgotten what that kind of young hunger really looked like and how far it could go..
Avon had been around just long enough to wisen up enough to play civil, but was still young/in tune enough to understand that sometimes extreme ignorance/violence is the only real play.
I still need to rewatch The Wire, like properly rewatch it because when u first watched it so many scenes were cut out on comcast demand back in the day.
Prop Joe was a devious MF bro wym good guy drug dealer he's just slick AF until he wasnt
Buy for a dollar, sell for two. Nothing bad, just business. And dont forget how Prop Joe save life of old toaster.
I always think about Prop Joe like a middle between Avon and Stringer. He is old School, but more modern than Avon. He is doing that for money, but not so greedy as Stringer. (at least we dont see any sign of this rich, like big house or expensive flat).
Maybe his ultimate goal was Number One place, but via authority and connections, not killing or frighten everyone else.
And of course he is bad, he is criminal.
I love all the little references thrown into the content
Man, using phrases from the show to narrate this....chefs kiss 😂
I mean…Joe fed Old Face Andre to Marlo on a silver platter. Andre was a dumbass frontman, but it was still cold blooded.
Top 4 wire characters
1) Prop Joe
2) Sydney Handjerker
3) Irving Pepper
4) Dr. Jay
🤣 🤣
"Omar comin!"
Joe can you fix this clock?
I love how you use so many great turns of phrase from the show. You're a hardcore fan.
I thought prop Joe was strong and wise , but the way he went out was just plain stupid
He shouldn't have ever helped Marlo, or even invited him to join the co-op. Cineranter, excellent analysis as always. And you're right about Prop Joe.
Nah his ending was perfect lol him and that co op spent all that time complaining about Avon.It came back and bit him in the ass lol that's why I'm glad Marlo did what he did
Joe ran out of time, man. All his evil deeds caught up with him.
The timing of the world is funny sometimes…Im going through my 5th rewatch of the series (just started szn 5) and as Ive gone through it this time, I found myself hating Joe a lot more than before. Tryna flip the 20on a dollar to 30 just to make a profit off a shipment you setup to be lost in the first place is next level slimey. Makes sense that his arrogance thinking he could tame Marlo gets him done in the long run. Marlo was smart to put him down, point blank. Good video, keep it up👍🏼
Before I watch I’m going to say, yes he was. The way he did Old Face Andre proved it without a doubt.
I was mad when Prop Joe got killed. Marlo had to go after that in my eyes even after he killed Bodie. I missed the old days like he said LOL. Marlo was a smart cold hearted young dude
Marlo had to be cold, too many OGs was hating the young boy
@@millionairesdreamassociation The only cat that was hating was Avon but he was fresh out of jail so he was weak! The OGs was trying to get him to Co Op band together how is that hate ?. Prop Joe gave him the plug to clean his money and shared the Greeks. Marlo wanted everything all to himself. Greed!
@@dkd8747 that’s prop Joe fault he got flipped he should’ve listened to slim about Marlo like said “it ain’t easy civilizing this MF” lol
@@millionairesdreamassociation So who is wrong in this? You said they was hating and i said they tried to Co op now you saying its their fault for not hating . So in reality Marlo was the hater.
@@dkd8747 a smart man like Joe should’ve recognized that Marlo was up to no good, Marlo played the game how it was supposed to be played?
Joe couldnt escape marlo cause with his knees,he had problems getting into the car seat
I always took it that Joe was always a front. He wasnt hard he was just smart enough to fake it. Marlo tapped into the weakness and won
Joe, was slimy and slick. Marlo and Avon knew that, they saw through his scams. He was going to eventually cross Marlo
once Marlo was no use to him, and he was just using Marlo, and and thought he would outwit Marlo, but Slim warned him
to watch Marlo.
@1:36 CineRanter you good? You just described bro in a tantalizing and mouth-watering way
WONDERFUL MATERIAL, ILL NEVER FORGET IT, DANKE
I have never clicked on any video quicker!
Don't forget he backdoored Old Face Andre too after buying the store for the low low
Great video. I would just point out that Joe and Andre weren’t friends. Andre was a semi-independent west side dealer who wasn’t a member of the co-op. He only went to Joe because he assumed he had no connections to Marlo being from the east side. What he did to Andre was extremely cutthroat and ruthless, but not pure evil seeing as he didn’t really have any loyalty or connection to Andre to betray. He even told him that he should have been looking for refugee in New York or Phili instead of the east side of Baltimore.
Joe always wondered what happened to Gary Cooper..
Sheeeeet!!!!!😂😂😂 Clay Davis!