Chess960: Fischer Random Chess Explained | Magnus Carlsen and Lex Fridman
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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2022
- Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Magnus Carlsen: Greate...
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Magnus Carlsen is the highest-rated chess player in history and widely considered to be the greatest chess player of all time.
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Full conversation with Magnus Carlsen: ua-cam.com/video/0ZO28NtkwwQ/v-deo.html
Quick note from Lex: The camera on Magnus died 20 minutes in. Most folks still just listen to audio-only version, but here on UA-cam we did our best to still make it interesting to watch & listen by adding image overlays. I mess things up sometimes, like in this case, and it hits me hard when I do. I'm sorry for this. I'm always working hard to improve. I hope you understand. Thank you for your patience and support along the way. I love you all.
Great content as always lex. Even though Magnus' camera died, I noticed you have live footage from other perspectives, when Magnus was showing the moves on the chess board. That view would be great to see for the conversation, as seeing facial expressions add an extra dimension to the conversation.
audi overlays were great, thank you
I like to think all the pawns are mixed up as well
They are, we're all pawns after all.
Brilliant
mind blown
Brilliant
@@odin8298 yes
I love the idea of Fischer Random. Taking a lot of opening prep out of the game means players have to make their own moves much earlier, and I think the more pieces are on the board, the trickier it is to find the best moves (because more pieces usually make more complicated positions), more room for error, and more room for small differences in skill to turn into decisive advantages.
It's just a lot more fun too. Ever since I started playing chess 960 I refuse to play the original way.
I'm a big fan of this variant too, but the big downside of it is that certain opening positions are imbalanced.
I don't even play the game and what Fischer said makes 100% sense to me. The memorization has destroyed creativity. If you randomize the back row pieces, the creativity is forced to return.
It also creates some very awkward and boring positions that are no fun to play.
@@matttondr9282 every fischer random game was more fun to watch and to play than 100% of classical matches at the top levels. People studying moves in front of a computer for weeks to show who is the more mindless drone is never entertaining. Fischer random should replace classical chess.
Castling is its downside.
@@matttondr9282 and for this reason, creativity in necessary.
Memorization is not a problem for majority of the players.
Bobby Fischer was ahead of his time
Not really, Capablanca was already saying the same things earlier in the century. That’s why he invented Capablanca chess. Fischer’s variant is definitely better though because it doesn’t require any additional pieces and can be played with a regular set.
@@matttondr9282 lol. Well yeah he was ahead of his time. Not because of Fischer random. Though you could say relatively he was still ahead because of it, only since the rest of the chess world moved so slowly and should have come up with it sooner.
what about "mixed chess" all pieces are randomized but in the same starting points.
He was, and now someone very disrespectful wants to erase his name from Fischer Random and give it the dumb name, chess 960. I hate that stupid name.
Yeah... it is more appropriate to call it fischer random instead...
Fischer Random is the next evolution of Chess. I think it will propel the game forward. Chess at a high level is important but the only place for chess to go after that point is Fischer Random. Take away the theory and leave the Man.
yes pls
its not a surprise 2 of the top 3 greatest of all time really enjoy it
yes, I don't like professional chess because some games are won by theory, not by the player.
With 15 minutes time to look at the engine ... I dont think so ...
this is why miniature skirmish wargames are more interesting than chess to me, the variability of the initial setup, as well as varied victory conditions makes for an infinitely more interesting strategic and tactical experience.
Fischer random shouldbbe the future of long time format
Definitely, and let's call it Fischer random.
Bobby Fischer's contribution of Random Chess is absolutely brilliant, and life saving for this beautiful game, which is being threatened by book moves and bloody computers. More thinking, more original ideas, more actual chess decisions .. less memorization and fewer recommended engine lines... can only be a good thing.
I'm pretty sure FIscher would be really upset knowing Fischer Random got recognized but without the proper time control which make the whole idea pointless. The game forces you to come up with creative ideas and its kinda hard to get it with very short time control.
Chess960 should defienetly be promoted more, i dont know what fide is thinking. All the top players love it
I really love 960 chess. Is so creative and hard. No memomy lines, just chess
I had a friend who knew way more basic chess move sets, and would generally win because of his memory background with the basic setup. He straight up refused to play 960, because he thought he'd be at a disadvantage in such an improv game. Shame! I prefer to play 960 when I can because I don't put too much time into chess itself
@@slomnim chess960 is amazing. Standard chess relies too much on memorization of moves, which has 2 main issues :
1) New players are facing people with years or decades of time spent memorizing opening positions, so big disadvantage for new players
2) long term players aren't willing to play chess960 because they spent so much time and effort memorizing openings theory that they will feel they wasted their time, even though they might secretly know that chess960 is a superior game
@@Nata-ch2bk regular chess is still way more popular online than chess960 amongst all rating levels. And your point about beginners being at a disadvantage because of not knowing theory is solved by playing players at your own level who also don’t know theory. And now supergms cant even draw against an engine with white. So the game is still very rich. Hikaru has pawn odds against Komodo and he lost 10-0 😂 and look how alpha zero proved that there are so many possibilities of long term piece sacrifices that we can’t even comprehend lol.
@@liamweinberg4902
"And your point about beginners being at a disadvantage because of not knowing theory is solved by playing players at your own level who also don’t know theory"
-> That doesn't really solve the problem I was talking about, because if you want to improve in standard chess, you will not have a choice but to go through the tedious work of learning openings by heart, because you if you want to climb, you will face people who've spent years/decades learning those openings by heart.
So the only way is to spend years/decades learning openings yourself. I'd say this is a disadvantage if you're not a fan of spending so much time memorizing stuff.
Even if you get to the point where you understand endgame and strategy better than let's say the average 1200 elo player, as well as have a better tactic level than they do, you will still lose tons of games against them just because of opening tricks that you are not aware of. And the only way to not fall for those tricks, is to do tons of opening theory study.
This issue doesn't exist in chess960. If you understand chess better and you have strong potential for tactics, you won't face the wall of opening tricks that needs years of study to catch up.
"So the game is still very rich. Hikaru has pawn odds against Komodo and he lost 10-0 😂 and look how alpha zero proved that there are so many possibilities of long term piece sacrifices that we can’t even comprehend lol."
-> This is a legitimate opinion, but I personally do not share it. I do not think comparing humans with machines shows any richness to the game of standard chess.
And even if that was the case, those details would apply for chess960 as well, meanwhile chess960 can offer a lot more freedom and creativity.
Nowadays, GMs prepare tournaments by reviewing opening lines based on what their opponents usually play. They need full teams of support, in addition to machines, to help them do that very tedious work.
In chess960, GMs will prepare tournaments by just trying to get better at the game. As well as getting a better understanding of chess960 or chess in general. Can't get an advantage by memorizing lines anymore, so it makes for a much richer gameplay.
I’d be interested in a Go analogous scoring method, where black gets more points for a draw. E.g., black gets .6 and white .4. So not .5/.5. So in 5 games, all black draws = 3 and all white = 2. It would perhaps force more dynamic play. And it makes white strive to prove the advantage.
Gotta love how Magnus pulled a Bobby Fischer and turned off the cameras when Lex was busy!
the main issue with chess is that the more the theory advances the more the early game will be "solved". This creates a rapidly rising skill floor for any upcoming talent. Basically, if you wanna have any shot in competition you need to KNOW your first 6-7 moves perfectly which is VERY hard to do given how many different combinations there are.
Chess960 keeps the advantage of knowing theory, but makes less of a requirement since the early game will be randomized such that memorizing openings is futile.
fischer chess; throws out the memorization. you can't memorize anymore strategy when the pieces are mixed up. now its "you" vs "me"
The issue isn’t that the skill floor rises. It’s that skill and creativity is replaced by memory
I love a good game of 960, but it can take a while to get paired for a game. It should be more popular, it's actually a better if you enjoy calculation and novelty. There should be a no mirroring rule though, maybe you can't mirror more than 5 moves.
This doesn't apply to all possibilities as many setups if you mirror you lose right off. So not necessary
It will never cease to amaze me that humanity was able to create what is essentially the perfect boardgame 1000 years ago. I know some things have changed in that time but the basic game, the locations of the pieces hasn't.
Think of all the money spent developing new games in the modern age and not one of them has ever come close to matching chess, in 1000 years no one will be playing Monopoly or Call of Duty but they will still be playing chess.
I think the perfect board game isn't chess it's Go much simpler to explain and significantly harder to solve
@@bobbysnobby Go doesn't have as many exciting elements as chess--things like asymmetry of the pieces, crazy positional sacrifices, the concept of a checkmate to end the game at any time, etc. Abstract strategy games are all cool with me though!
Lol, Call of duty isnt even the best multiplayer shooter, or what? ... Though some of their campaigns are pretty good. Counter strike has the more minimal classics small maps shooter gameplay, with a lot of possibilites, Battlefield as the literal better mass battling with a lot of vehicles and enviroment changing, Rainbow six siege spins the formula and evolves it further 5 vs 5, but also goes more arcade and fighting game like with all its characters and special abilities and weapons.
What makes call of duty multiplayer so special?
Also as long as their is money and property, monopoly will exist.
@@FirstNameLastName-bt9cv No, it is not. First which power are you talking about ? 5 hand or poker hold them 2 card hand. Further, though poker is a cool game and has some strategy to it, it has to much luck involved to be compared to Chess, even 960.
@@bobbysnobby How is go simpler to explain than chess ? Giant board, different countries China, Korea,etc. have different rules, very many different situations .
They could also do more like e.g. create a 2 headed pawn that can take pieces either 1 or 2 diagonal squares away. And place it randomly in the front row. This would create exponentially more random openings
I've been playing 960 and I love it. It's much more interesting.
Though the positions and potential for moves change on the board given the pieces, one thing still remains the same: the characters behind them with regard to each other.
6:58 - Qf7 takes own Knight is not checkmate as Black's King can also take its own piece to escape.
Hmm. Good point.
Clever, mating would be tricky in that chess variant
I had assumed Magnus was going to speak about plowing through pieces that were in the way, and not necessarily part of the attack. Then I thought he was going to talk about how it can help for defense as well. I guess he just wanted to give a quick example of why you may want to a lose a significant piece.
Alpha Zero team published a paper on these chess variants and allowed their system to learn them at a super human level. You can read it online, with analysis of many games played. It should be interesting to see how these new rules change the battle. They even estimate the piece values as the rules change. One variant allows pawns to move twice any time, or to move sideways... becoming very powerful pieces.
Not if the knight was defended by a bishop. (As it was in the example)
We should play more chess 960, as well as all the time controls in standard chess
I get this variant is supposed to reduce memorization, but I memorized a line for each 960 start position
Wesley So breaks Magnus on this games.
It gives variety, I wonder why this games doesn't get too much attention
It’s too chaotic for me to seriously enjoy. Every once in a while I enjoy watching the top guys play. Eg Magnus vs Hikaru. But the fact that humans can’t even draw against super engines with white anymore proves to me that the game is still so rich. And there are thousands of amazing games documented over the years that is so interesting to look through. Chess 960 won’t allow that because every position is different, so we can’t really compare games like we can in chess. And the rate of draws at the highest level in classical is stable at around 65%. If it ever gets near 80% then it’s time to change.
capablanca chess with random arrangement!
Pawns on ranks 1 and 8 is interesting
Did they ever arrest chest player who broke the players fingers
What if we swapped the kings and queens, like put the black king and queen on the 1 rank and the white king and queen on the 8 rank.
Thank you gentlemen.
Erm, not to explains the rules of chess to the greatest GM of the contemporary era, but do the rules of castling, off the top of my head, not state the King move two squares towards the Rook, which is placed to the King's other side. The King cannot move more than 2 squares, but the Rook could.
"I don't like memorizing things so I createa a game likechess, but niw you havr to memorize 960 times more
i would recommend not removing the video element of the clip.
I believe he had technical issues when filming this particular episode
@@user-vz9yi3mv3dthe only issues he had was deciding not to show the broad camera simply because the individual Magnus camera died. It was a stupid decision by Lex most probably spurred on from his perfectionist outlook on content.
People been trying to "patch" chess
Its Bobby Fischer
The world champion should be determined with Fischer Random. Do away with players who out memorize their opponent and reward the player who can truly play the best.
castling is so unintuitive in this variant but the rest of it is amazing
It's the future.
Not gonna lie I hate pawns but I think I haven’t had enough fun yet to enjoy pawns
They say endgame teaches you the chess
Well chess960 really feels like you're already at the endgame
why do youtube subtitles suck soooooo bad?!!!
why are parts of the video just images of each of them instead of videos of them lol. it makes it less engaging
As I am still learning chess and enjoying it, I cannot claim to enjoy this setup. I can’t even watch the current tournament.
The only way to save chess is to use the rule that every time you take a piece, you have to drink a shot. Now THAT would make for some interesting games.
How about 5D Chess with Multiverse and Time Travel?
There are some positions in fischer random where white has a 60+% winrate and some where white has a 44% winrate. This stops it from being competitive, period
you take those positions out or you make players play the same positions in reverse until one of them breaks the tie
not tha thard to think of solutions to that
There are wars where one side is outmatched 1 to 50.
Also you can just play each set-up twice, so both players play it with black and white.
You seem to be pretty small-minded to not see that possibility.
@@edgarh7879nah your logic is wrong
Why still photos???
Lmao Magnus forgot about castling
To hell with chess 960, just call it by its original name, Fischer Random, in honour of the person who made the case that chess opening theory ruins chess. Who was so disrespectful to try to change the name? Before you it know it, some bastard will steal the idea and protect the name Chess 960 for their own greed.
ban an croissant
We now have AI to solve this problem. Add new pieces and rules. Have the AI play asymmetrical variants against each other and find which ones are fair. Take the most fair 1000 or so combinations and put them into a book. Before each match, roll the dice and setup as the book indicates.
Whys magnus playing thw 960 world cup but not FIDE WC ? Is it because his brains filled up with so much theory of 960 ?
Love Fischer Random, but if you want too level play Niemann Certain Chess lol 😂😂😂 Engines rev with that one... I assume of course
Even Fischer random will be solved eventually, it’s just going to take a lot more time. Every possible position will be given a name and people will plug those positions into chess engines and develop separate theory for every possible starting position
Is it worth the effort?
Except that the human brain cannot memorize deep lines for 960 possible starting positions. It's hard enough for just one. Players are only told the starting position 15 minutes before the game, so they are forced to use their own wit, not rely on pre-solved positions.
960 is already solved. Deep Mind only used four hours to reach WC level. Without opening database.
Yes, go memorize 20 moves of theory for like hundreds lines of every single 960 possible combinations. Good luck.
never happen. basic chess would take over. activate all your pieces, control center, castle, connect rooks etc. you would never be able to memorize more than 3-4 moves for 960 setups, and those 3-4 moves would almost always be basic chess
He called them maps lol
this is why miniature skirmish wargames are more interesting than chess to me, the variability of the initial setup, as well as varied victory conditions makes for an infinitely more interesting strategic and tactical experience.
This is interesting. Do you have any examples?
@@freedbyyeshua533 look into games like Malifaux, Infinity, Warmachine, Bushido, SAGA, Guildball.
@@anab0lic Gotcha, thanks
Very good point, but at the end of the day I think chess is still better because of the artistry involved.
@@anab0lic I looked up some of those games, and infinity seems similar to the Advance Wars series. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with it, but I think you might enjoy it
fischer random is cool but for casual games it seems a bit obnoxious since it requires more preparation to set up
You just put some pieces differently, I don't see where it's obnoxious, am I missing something ?
@@captainnoyaux because first you have to agree to the order in which to place things, which has to be random so ppl don't have preparation... just saying it's not as easy as just playing c hess
You could alternate positions for the setup with a pawn draw to elect the first selector.
Yo lexi
Thirty years from now folks will still be complaining that "the camera on Magnus died" -- this is history and the room for camera error in 2022 is inexcusable -- camera works just fine when interviewing guests who claim they have seen USP's, ghosts, goblins and little green men - but certainly one of the most significant and advanced humans of our time - Magnus Carlsen -- the camera on him dies during what could have been the record of a historic interview -- all that education and knowledge and yet still camera problems -- humans being all too human lol
The best way to improve chess is to simply allow the Queen to truly be all powerful and letting it also move like a knight.
this
thats insane
Emory Tate’s son is a G
Irrelevant
pre-chess is better
How can the average person care about "960" or such? We do not spend our lives playing chess so this is a discouragement.
Surely that makes 960 more appealing? It levels the playing field between those who have spent a lot of time memorising moves and those who haven’t
fischer random is a joke.
Why
@@jorgejim28 because you actually need a brain and not just memory to play it which apparently this dude lacks
@@NoobPlayMC lol my thought exactly! Kane should be a little more opened minded here.
lmao let’s bully kane