Colby: This is all the reasons thrown weapons aren’t the best mathematical choice.... Also Colby: Tune in next time when I tell you how to build a thrown weapon character!
I really appreciate what you said in this video. I've watched other optimization channels and even if they say that "this is a game" they still came off as "this is the best option and you're an idiot for choosing differently" or coming off that they are working on some higher plane of thinking. You always seem so genuine and really encourage having fun.
Kensei monk can upgrade darts to d10 eventually, and get a bonus action dart attack via ki-fueled attack (using deft strike or focused aim), and get magic darts with up to a +3 bonus :)
@@mcullennz Also if you make a dart a kensai weapon it is also a monk weapon and scales with your martial arts die. So at 5th lvl the dart becomes a d6 then a d8 eventually a d10 surpassing the bow.
@@ShardPF2e Uh the granting magic bonuses explicitly says one kensei weapon you touch so it implies it'd only be the one dart that would benefit from that. "At 11th level, you gain the ability to augment your weapons further with your ki. As a bonus action, you can expend up to 3 ki points to grant one kensei weapon you touch a bonus to attack and damage rolls when you attack with it. The bonus equals the number of ki points you spent. This bonus lasts for 1 minute or until you use this feature again. This feature has no effect on a magic weapon that already has a bonus to attack and damage rolls."
Hi, finally a video on thrown weapons! You can combine Dueling style and Thrown weapon fighting styles. What I've find the most interesting with a thrown character is : Rogue Soulknife to keep "dueling" or a Ranger Hunter 11 / Artificer 2 to Volley a returning weapon if allowed.
My usual solution is to use a hand crossbow with the Crissbow Expert Feat and sometimes Sharpshooter. Then just cosmetically narrate it as whatever thrown weapon I want to use. Tried to make a Javelin Thrower from Theros, and there was simply no other way to make it worth playing that I could find without homebrewing despite the fact that the Javelin and Hand Crossbow have identical stats. Some DMs might even let you use STR instead of DeX. But in almost every situation Dex is better anyhow.
either; Battlesmit/fighter, returning weapon infusion, and use your bonus action for your pet or Champion 3 / Rogue X, elven accuracy feat and start crit seeking those sneak attacks with a dart (do like the idea of aiming a dart into the eye of the big bad, while shouting "one hundred and eighty!")
Thanks for mathing out the thrown weapon issues. I had always suspected it was bad by the math, but this is a great illustration of that. It seems like the simple fix is to update the thrown weapon description to include "counts as a ranged weapon" and be done with it.
You can just replace archery with dueling and have thrown weapon + dueling to get +4, as you drawing the weapon as part of every attack means that you always only need 1 weapon out at a time which qualifies you for dueling
Congrats on 5k my dude! Looking forward to whatever you've got next. I'll bump what others have said in the comments that the monk is a great way to make thrown weapons more viable. The only time I played a thrown-weapom build was in a dragon slaying one-shot, it was as a monk and I had a blast staying just out of the dragon's melee range and pelting it with d6 darts while dodging as a bonus action for that sweet sweet advantage against its breath weapon.
I mean, if you have a boomerang, the weapon returns on a miss. If you take at least a level of fighter for thrown fighting, that grants you boomerang proficiency.
Just got here after you answered a comment i made at your video about the "Needler" build, it answered some of my questions, the idea i had wouldn't work with ranged options but it would let you do a third weapon attack with "Thrown Wapon Fighting" at level 6 by taking the "Dual Wielder" feat "Dual Wielder" let you: -Gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand. (Not so important to the case at hand) -Use two-weapon fighting even when the one handed melee weapons you are wielding aren’t light. (letting you dual wield even javelins or spears) And most importantly *-Draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.* So, if you are able two draw 2 thrown weapons instead of one, and "Thrown Weapon Fighting" let you throw the weapon right after you draw it as a attack, can't you throw the second one you draw with "Dual Wielder" as your bonus action? That would solve the issue having to take "Crossbow Expert" to attack in your bonus action and it would have the benefits from both the "Two Weapon Fighting" and "Thrown Weapon Fighting" fighting styles! Making the damage (using javelins for it's better range): 1D6+2 (as first attack) +1D6+2+ Ability Modifier (for the bonus action) +1D6+2 (with the extra attack) times two (using action surge) I don't think it would be as strong as just taking a crosbow, using "Crossbow Expert" and having Sharpshooter, but it would be more viable that taking a shot with a crosbow to then throw 2 weapons I love to think about those possibilities, even if it doesn't work or is not as viable ,thanks for having those amazing videos to create more discussion about it! Keep up the amazing work :D
I think though the advantage to a thrown weapon is it can still be used at close range, so you don't necessarily have to be built around thrown weapons, they're more a utility. Awesome videos as always!
Number Cruncher? Naw, I can't believe it. You're a shining light of fun character builds. If they happen to make lots o' damage that is absolutely coincidental.
I think you could add dueling fighting style damage to thrown melee weapons, providing you are drawing then throwing each one seperately. The Soulknife Rogue and Stars Druid both offer ranged bonus action attack options for a dart wielder.
One great advantage to thrown-weapons, especially with a Dart build, is the ability to use nets well. This is particularly great for a fighter that can exchange an attack to get advantage on their other attacks. I am playing a dart build now and it works really well BUT our campaign has a few things that I find really help this build work. (1) We get a free feat at 1 which can't be a half-feat or SS/GWM/CBE. This makes helps with the investment cost of needing two fighting styles. (2) There's a catalogue of items you can purchase weapon improvements from. One option is a returning dart. So no need for an artificer. Another is Bracers of Archery but they work for any ranged weapon. (3) The subclass I play has a lovely bunch of bonus actions. So there is not much need for a way to generate bonus action attacks.
Hi Colby. Great discussion on the thrown weapo n fighting style and issues! Keep it up! :) IMO there's no need for the dart setup to get that bonus action attack. You can do other stuff with your bonus action (hunter's mark, upcasted hail of thorns, branding smite, order steel defender to attack, etc) and your DPR won't drop off (in fact even increase in the 1st round with the fighter+gloomstalker chassis). Since no need to 2WF, you can keep a shield. Sharing here as well my level 10 yondu dart build: 2 fighter, 5 battlesmith, 3 gloomstalker custom lineage: elven accuracy (int) asi: sharpshooter fighting styles: archery, thrown infusion: returning, enhanced defense/mind sharpener fighter subclass upon level up: battlemaster (for quick toss and finally getting in that bonus action attack without needing to 2WF) tactics: bonus action: hunter's mark action: 3 triple advantage attacks (3rd has an extra 1d8) with sharpshooter, infusion and thrown fighting style bonuses action surge: 3 triple advantage attacks (3rd has an extra 1d8) with sharpshooter, infusion and thrown fighting style bonuses future rounds you just get 2 attacks but the 1st round nova 6 attacks assures you remove a high threat target off the board while weakening a 2nd. On those succeeding 2 round attacks, you can get a 3rd attack by ordering the steel defender to attack or simply increasing the dmg of those 2 attacks by upcasting hail of thorns/branding smite for the 1st attack and using favored foe on the 2nd attack (break concentration of hail of thorns/branding smite since it's expended). BTW I hope you don't mind me sharing build ideas in the comments sections in your vids. I'm thinking if you/others get to read them, you think of something i could've missed to make it better. :)
The last day or 2 I've been wondering how to get a thrown weapon build to work and kept finding conflicts that you pointed out. Thank you for validating my frustrations. I will definitely be checking out your Needler video next!
Kensai monk. Echo Knight. (Darts+sharpshooter+archery+thrown weapon fighting) and unarmed strike+flurry of blows+stunning strike in melee with echo) imo currently playing, its fun.
Hi Colby. I'm guessing Soul Knife for psychic blades and Battlemaster or Rune Knight for extra attack and added damage, maybe some Whispers bard too. Great vid as always.
I made a psi warrior fighter with the Artificer initate feat for magic stone and and catapult along with thrown weapon fighting. He is working out great since he only has to focus on intelligence with +2 into int at 4 getting up to 20 (I did custom linkage for +2 int and got very lucky with my rolls) and crusher feat (with +1 to con) at level 6 I’m currently at 7th level and doing 1 d6 + 1 d8 + 12 (with psyonic strike) per attack and controlling enemy movement with cruncher and telekinetic thrust and if I get a crit I action surge and get more attacks at advantage due to crusher. It’s great can’t wait till level 11 when I can do 1d6 + 1 d10 + 12 on 3 attacks!! Only problem is that since magic stone is a bonus action for 3 stones and action surge gives no bonus action action sure is kinda useless for damage in my build
Biggest issue with a build centered around throwing weapons is that you will have to retrieve those weapons. Even if you have 10 throwing weapons, that means you can attack 10 times before you need to retrieve one or two, costing movement and potentially putting you in a compromised spot on the battlefield. Then, you can only pick up one item as a free action before having to use an action to interact with a second item, unless you also have dual wielder feat, which allows 2 interactions as free. So, once you've exhausted all of your weapons, you need to give up your movement and position to retrieve only 1 or 2 weapons before resorting to giving up an action to retrieve another. The only other option is to just abandon the strategy you've based your entire build on mid-fight, and resort to melee combat; if you still have any weapons, that is. Yes, you can just carry more and more weapons, but unless you have something like a bag of holding, weight is a factor. Unlike ammo for a ranged weapon, throwing weapons weigh like a pound or so. You can't just carry 100 of them. That's not even considering the logistics of retrieving weapons from a creature that is huge or larger. How does one retrieve thrown knives from an adult dragon that is still alive and well? I really want it to work but i just don't see it happening without a specific class or subclass being designed for it that has some kind magic ability allowing you to retrieve them at will.
I asked my DM if I could re-skin hand crossbows to look like daggers. I took all the crossbow feats and abided by all the restrictions for the crossbows. It allowed me to recreate a Bullseye type character without driving myself crazy. I wasn't giving my character any advantage, my crossbows just happened to look like daggers. I did the something similar when I wanted to re-create a Gambit type character for a campaign. I asked my DM if I could re-skin Eldritch Blast so each bolt looked like a thrown playing card. All the standard invocations applied and nothing mechanically changed but it looked way cooler. It also prevented me from banging my head into pulp trying to figure out a D&D 5E way to weaponize playing cards.
Quick Toss Battlemaster Maneuver: As a bonus action, you can expend one superiority die and make a ranged attack with a weapon that has the thrown property. You can draw the weapon as part of making this attack. If you hit, add the superiority die to the weapon’s damage roll. This would allow 3 darts in a single turn, all with sharpshooter, and more damage on the 3rd attack due to adding superiority dice.
For bonus action thrown attack, what about 3 lvl Battlemaster (Quick Toss Maneuver), only 4 uses per short rest, but that isn't too sparse... And it saves you crossbow expert feat.
Also, if you throw darts with main hand you can still throw and axe with off hand. Or you could take poisoner and bonus action poison each turn and maybe even pick up some utility poisons or something along the journey.
Kensei Monk 6, with Tasha's Ki-Fueled Attack optional monk feature. You can spend a ki on Deft Strike so that one dart deals an extra MA die damage, then instead of both Action darts getting 1d4 (from the Kensei's Shot bonus action), you get a third dart attack as a bonus action. Still probably strictly worse than using a Longbow for 3x 1d10+dex + the MA die + possibly sharpshooter. It basically gives Kensei monks a Quick Toss maneuver, meaning you could look at non battle-masters. Now you go fighter to 4 for archery/thrown, an archetype, action surge, and sharpshooter or more dex. Follow up to 7 or 11 fighter, or 7 or 8 monk, or move on to Ranger 3/4 for either additional alpha strike of the Gloomstalker or if you want to sprinkle darts across the battlefield, Fey Wanderer can add 1d4 to each enemy hit once per turn. It's still really sub-optimal, but 11 Fighter 6 Kensei 3 Ranger is a fairly reliable dart thrower. If you're Battle Master, that's 4/5 Quick Tosses and 6+ Ki Fueled tosses per short rest, which is a lot.
What good is sharpshooter? It’s a variant feat. And even than. Thrown weapons are not ranged weapons for a reason. They are an alternative option to overcome some distance and not meant to be a main form of attack
My character was a ranger who was proficient in archery, up was cursed to reincarnate with his owl companion. Since he died not too long ago he has been turned into a teenage rogue who I wanted to specialize in daggers,and specifically throwing daggers to keep with the theme of him being a sharpshooter…that being said I have no idea if rogues can be good at throwing. I’m high in dex and stealth so in theory I could be good at it. I didn’t think that far tbh
I played around with idea for a little and best i can think of bumping damage mainly is with poisoners feat, or go paladin for smites. I could see kensi monk also working.
The piercer feat is worth considering here too. It applies equally to each crossbow or dart attack but of course hand axes can't get it and while slasher is good in its own way it doesn't increase damage as piercer does
I’m actually playing a barbarian right now that’s nearly an exact replica of Guts because I too am an enjoyer of Berserk. My DM even has us on a quest right now to get “The Dragonslayer” which he made pretty much the exact big sword from the manga. Can’t wait for the clang!
Can’t wait for your video tomorrow. I’m hoping it’s an arakocra Eldritch knight. Two weapon fighting style Thrown weapon fighting through fighting style feat. 1st attack throw spear, 2nd attack throw spear bonus action return spear through weapon bond 3rd attack throw spear. Other attacks I’m pulling javalins and raining pain from the sky. That’s if spear is considered a light weapon of course.
Not sure how to shoot 3 times with hand crossbow having them in both hands. I know with feat there is no loading property, but that was meant more like a speedbump at loading instead of just removing a need of a hand to reload. Like in bows, they have no loading property, but it assumes you can still hold it in one hand while with the other hand you set up the arrow. Or with sling you put the stone in the container with a free hand.
You just use one crossbow :). The feat says that you can ignore loading (not ammo, so you still need a free hand), and when you attack with a one handed weapon (which the crossbow is), you can make a bonus action attack with the hand crossbow. So attack with the hand crossbow, then BA attack with the same hand crossbow :).
This is amazing! Thanks I originally started this build as Judeau from Berserk then became a captain america type. It wont be minmaxed by I do like the idea of a handaxe swingin and dart throwing if i cant pick my axe up. I really wanna mess with artificers too!
I think there should be a feat dedicated to enhancing thrown weapons. Ranged weapons get one, great weapons get one, why not thrown? Doesn't need to be mechanically identical (-5 accuracy +10 damage) but there should be something to incentivise the play style for a striker build. Although Dueling synergizes with Thrown Weapon Fighting so you can get a persistent +4 damage which is pretty nice, considering no accuracy penalty. Makes light hammers on par with a d12 weapon on average (2.5+4/hit but less potential to deviate from that average above or below). I''ve commented this before but I like a Dwarven light hammer thrower who specializes in controlling the layout of the battlefield with the Crusher feat. Maybe a Rune Knight Fighter, for the sake of increasing the largest creature size you can push around? Or a Battlemaster for those maneuvers to help control the field. Just remember to not hold two weapons at a time, because that stops you from getting the Dueling bonus. Edit: typo
It's probably too late game to matter, but I can't help but feel that a Kensai thrower has some potential. Scaling dart damage up to 1d10+15 with martial arts dice, sharpshooter and 20 dex, or 2d10+15 with a ki point (spent after confirming the hit, for crit shenanigans up to an eventual 4d10). Squeeze gunner or XBE in there so you can throw in melee if needed and get your unarmed/flurry hits in too. It's not gonna be optimal, but there's some possibilities there that are itching in the back of my brain.
Rather than archery I'd take the thrown weapon fighting style. Make action economy smoother for drawing a weapon to throw (it's part of your attack) and gives + 2 to hit when throwing them. I use it on my tempest cleric to turn javelins into zeus's thunder bolt
I just literally made a thrown fighting character about two weeks ago. I went kensei monk and battle master fighter. There’s the quick toss option from that fighter that lets you bonus action attack. Either way, I really like the character.
Soul Knife Rouge can help with Thrown Weapon fighting style, in fact as written the Psychic Blades aspect of Soul Knife feels like it requires thrown weapon to get all the attacks.
So... investment wise... throwing weapon builds are pretty much 1 game feature choice behind regardless of how you cut it? Maybe the battlemaster helps a bit with the new maneuver?
The ace thrower only wins since axes are wrongly calculated. They should be one die lower in damage. The whip and the trident being the other two weapons that are bad. The longbow and heavy crossbow could have that flaw, but I assume that a certain distance might also explain a drop in damage.
What is your thought on a Tavern Brawler and playing with improvised weapon options. It might be DM dependant but there might be some wiggle room there.
What they need to do is reword Sharpshooter to include Thrown Weapons instead of simply Ranged Weapons, the issue would be fixed. Many DMs homebrew this anyway, in my experience.
one redeeming quality of the dart vs. the hand CB, is that it doesn't require a hand to load, so you can use a shield for +2AC. lose the bonus action attack from hand CB, but get a shield.. the problem is that in order to use the extra attack with thrown weapons, you need the thrown fighting style because you have only 1 object interaction per round to draw a dart. the +2 damage is much worse than +2 atk for the synergy with SS, and you benefit less from SS without a bonus action attack. also, if you don't get CBM, you get disadvantage on 5ft attacks which makes CBM a must for thrown darts with SS. And by then you have a build with CBM+SS, so might as well use a hand crossbow...
Battlemaster maneuver bonus action thrown weapon attack, more damage, still applies as ranged, and can be done 4 times per short rest, not perfect but pretty nice
Late to the party, but my main issue with Thrown Weapon Builds is having a DM that gives you enough magic Darts to overcome immunity/resistance of most monsters. At least the Returning Weapon Infusion is a great addition for thrown builds, although I wish it was available as a Feat instead of requiring 2 Artificer levels.
Agreed. I’d like to believe that most DMs would make it a magic item that’s available to the character at some point in the game, especially if you talk with them in a session 0 or something about what you’re trying to do with the character. Probably should have mentioned that in the final thoughts :)
A question I have with using darts is can you use the dueling fighting style with it? Stack on 3 fighting styles with sharpshooter. There's plenty of other good ways to use your bonus action other then an attack. Depending on how you build it edit: I just looked it up to double check. It says melee weapon specifically for dueling
The simple fact is thrown weapon lags because it wasn’t a real world thing. Not as a sole specialized weapon. It was an opening gambit as you draw to close quarters or an attack of opportunity as conditions allowed. Knife throwers had a especially large knife or short sword to use in the thick. That you didn’t just throw pointy/sharp/hard things at an opponent surrounded by your allies without a very high risk of friendly fire limited the real world use. In the world of game mechanics it isn’t as much of a risk. The entire debate is just down to the game mechanics. Those mechanics were built to translate real-world to game-world: they mostly concentrate on the most common questions or situations. This leaves niche techniques and situations unexplored. The game just doesn’t reward their use. Truly if the table wants them to be more useful just repurpose existing feats to improve them. Give them benefits equal to their functions. Obviously reach , a sharp object flying at your eyes might screw up your attack, and others.
I would argue that by RAW you can stack Thrown Weapon, Dueling AND Two Weapon Fighting, since Thrown Weapon allows you to draw a weapon as part of the attack. Additionally, a single level of Barbarian would allow you to add +2 Rage damage to axe attacks, as they're str based melee weapons. That would give you 1d6, +str +6. And a 2nd level would give you Reckless Attacks, which would give you an effective +5 to hit, as well as Danger Sense. Personally I like this character as a Barb with a Fighter Dip. At least at early levels. Should also keep in mind that Champion gets a 2nd fighting style @lvl 10, so if you can wait that long it negates one feat expenditure.
Shadowblade tosser build? (Familiar w ring of spell storing can use “self” on master and concentrate on and bonus action reform the offhand shadow blade)
Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn’t you do more damage using the hand crossbow against 20 AC characters with the sharpshooter turned off? If that is the case, than the hand crossbow always wins.
Playing Sword Bard TWF DW feat throwing 3 weapons a turn adding Bardic damage to attack. Dropping thrown weapon when in melee pulling out long swords. Med armour dex 14 and half plate AC 18. Option to add Bardic Die to AC.
Clearly, it is a dart thrower, using kensei/fighter multiclass. Kensei gets the bonus action dart throw (ki-fueled attacks paired with deft strikes)and bumps the damage die of the dart up, fighter to get the fighting styles feat free (or at least less) and get 3 attacks at fighter lvl 11.
Would Fighter, fey touched feat hunters mark, dualing weapon fighting style and thrown weapon fighting style from Fighting Initiate on a lvl5 char be alright? That brings a handaxe upto a 2d6+4+mods per hit. You just need to get advantage somehow
Spear + dueling + thrown weapon + pole arm + piercer + crusher RAW i dont know if, as a fighter, you could take the attack action, and use one attack within 5ft, bonus action attack from polearm, then use the rest of your attack to throw the spear
Something I keep wondering but feel dumb asking - how do these thrown weapon fighters go around with a dozen or more handaxes or javelins to hand? Surely you'd spend half your time picking up weapons from the ground or out of creatures' skulls. Awesome video.
So how to make a Thrown weapon fighter that works damage wise? Well if you have 10 minutes to spare, 10 lvls of whisper bard + 5lvl Battle master fighter Superior Technique + 2 paladin Thrown Weapon Fighting + 5 hexblade pact of the blade with Eldritch Smite + Thirsting Blade invocations + Martial Initiate, Two Weapon Fighting = 1st attack 4d6 Divine Smite (bard spell slot) +2st attack 4d6 Divine smite (bard spell slot) + bonus action melee weapon attack + 3d6Divine Smite (bard spell slot) + 4d8 Eldritch smite (warlock spell slot) + Thrusting blade gives your pact weapon a second attack, throw and deal 4d6 Eldritch Smite + 3d6 psychic wispers + quick toss 1d6 + 1d8. I have not acconted for crits, haste, spells like Thunderous Smite or weapon type, but except for the bard spell slots these all reset on a short rest, if your bard still has a 3th spell slot left cast catnap on yourself which takes 10 minutes to get the benefits of a short rest. I don't know about you but triple smite + throwing stuff sounds cool to me!!!
Do you think is there any way to play a good Whip Ranger (revised ranger and beastmaster)? Im starting a campaing rn as a Ranger and for some reason i really wanted to use a whip
@@DnDDeepDive Please add optimizing a net to the list. Consider it a true challenge to your skills. 😁 Maybe an Eldritch Knight? You could weapon bond with the net to call it back. Mending would be a good cantrip, so that you can easily repair the net.
To optimize a whip, it might be better to go with Paladin for smite and then add Hex or Hunter’s Mark. What about a Hexadin, starting with Hexblade to make make the whip charisma-based. If you go Oath of the Ancients, then that has a Ranger feel. Instead of an beast companion, you could fight while mounted! 😃
Any of the cookie cutter gloomstalker + fighter builds with longbow/crossbow should make the whip work. Simply replace those weapons with whips. Doing a beastmaster however will mess that up though since beastmaster are best built wisdom based and as spellcasters/shillelagh or magic stone users.
Instead of using thrown weapons our Ranger reflavored a crossbow as using random assortments of cooking utensils. Was sad for him that mechanically thrown weapons are just really suboptimal to use despite being so awesome thematically.
My hoplite like fighter is too busy holding a shield to two weapon fight. He's also a champion so I don't use a feat for that second fighting style, big brain 🧠
The problem with thrown weapons is the HP system. What makes thrown weapons so deadly in real life, is you tend to kill or incapacitate your target with a single throw. In D&D you dont kill in one hit, or do any real injury's to debilitate your foe so its not effective. Why focus on thrown when you can do more damage in melee (which is fair since its not a ranged attack) and the range is much shorter than a bow/crossbow (which makes sense)? Thrown weapons either need to do just slightly more damage than actual ranged weapons, but less than melee, or they need to apply conditions and have the same damage as real ranged weapons (for game balance).
I think the damage you lose with throwing weapons is out weighted by the versatility of ranged and melee combat. The thrown weapon build I imagine is a medium armored axeman running around slashing down one enemy then throwing his off hand axe across the battlefield and taking down another. The ability to allway make an attack no matter where you are on the battlefield
Could've just said "Cantrips" and ended the video. So many ways to get them, great for peppering/weakening foes at greater range than thrown weapons, and fairlt easy to access through low level magic items if nothing else. With the limited range and most foes closing for melee or ranged attacking from afar, even having only a few uses of a basic cantrip per day practically makes most thrown weapons obsolete. That being said, thematically... thrown weapons ROCK!! And as far as logistics and play... one phrase captures the largest dilemma of using throwing weapons. Make better use of your movement/ranges. And carry enough of them to make a difference. Use a partial retreat/dance as your enemy closes to weaken them with your daggers, hammers, hatchets, etc. Then shift to your melee and bust them a new one. Of course, simply carrying a bow ALSO makes thrown weapons a joke. The BEST instances for throwing daggers exist in wide open areas and mostly melee foes, or indoors... long winding hallways and catacombs that enable you to lead an opponent while using you're thrown weapons (often from behind partial cover) to mess them up. And their Primary Use is in suprise situations... like the apache fighters. Create an ambush that starts completely silent as you close up and surround, then the entire party attacks blitzkrieg style while yelling and creating chaos among the enemy. Choos a target and lay into them with a thrown dagger or two followed up with a melee attack. And as one opponent goes down, rinse and repeat, using your movement to peovide more thrown attacks against enemies in melee with your other companions (no risk of getting whacked with opportunity attacks). And thematicallt this Rocks. Though on paper its better for everyone on your side to tag assault each enemy until they're dead befor moving on to the next. Because thiner ranks equal fewer attacks damaging your team. But thats just my take on things. HuGGz
Be me: thrown weapon ranger Beast Master Find net The hell is this . JPEG Take sharpshooter Nets now useable at 10-15 feet without disadvantage. There is no save Pet now always attacks with advantage. Anyone who attacks after me and before the bad guy has advantage. Bad guy or an ally has to burn an action to free them.
Meh u could just have a wolf or something with pack tactics if u want advantage. And u don’t have to hit with a net to get this. Also not to mention the beastmaster sucks raw. Raw u have to give up your attacks if u want your beast to attack. Yea I know it’s really dumb. Any Dm that would actually rule it this way and not say screw it to that I definitely wouldn’t want to play with. And this is just one of the reasons they suck. They were so good in 3.5 and they completely cucked them in 5e and it makes me made. When I say so good in 3.5 I mean busted (like most things in 3.5 lol). So I expect them to have toned it down a little in 5e but they did it way too much. Anyway sorry for the rant.
using darts variant human int/dex fey touched int/hunter's mark 14 dex, 14 con, 15 int point buy (totals: 15dex, 14 con, 17 int) psi warrior 5 thrown weapon fighting style, asi sharpshooter order of the mutant 3 blood curse of the marked, archery fighting style, pick a rite, celerity (dex/dex max +3), sagacity (int/int max +3) battlesmith 3, returning weapon finish off going fighter until you get a 3rd attack, then do w/e. if you want asi, just drop a level into battlesmith or blood hunter to get lvl 4 asi from them use celerity, giving you total of 18 dex until you get 3 in battlesmith, then switch to using sagacity for a total of 20 int continue to increase int to 19 as increasing to 20 is pointless since sagacity potion will scale to give us +5int/int max. it scales off character level, not blood hunter level idk, didn't number crunch, but +7 int modifier tossed onto dart attacks seems good enough. bonus action is pretty bogged down with hunters mark and blood hunter stuff anyways so wouldn't have much time to do bonus action attack. also, high int benefits psi warrior damage things.
This is idiotic. Having a feat for a bonus action to do some sustained damage isn't a blight, there should just be more options to do that so not everyone goes down the same path.
@@DnDDeepDive Might i add, Mr.Lander, that i am looking forward to your throwing weapon build. I had another build that crossed my mind the other day. i being the one who mentioned the genielock3lorebardX for dpr/CC/party face Maybe, a warrior of nature. A Pally2SporesdruidX Pally smites are satisfied by druid spells, and spores not only produced massive temp HP, but bonus action eco as well through the spores and whatever else you have casted. IDK if the DPR gets anywhere near crazy, but maybe an investment to make if you roll those sweet sweet stats
The problem with knife throwing is in real life a knife thrower is much more badass than in the movies or games. In real life no reload no spin Knife throwing consist s of Three or four knives held in each hand and thrown One at a time in A fast fluid motion. It's like a machine gun with knives.
javelins are melee (str, can't apply the last part of sharpshooter) weapons with the thrown property but no finesse (for dex rolls) or light (for two-weapon fighting) properties ): but I still love javelins tho so my dragonborn fighter artificer uses them! I can imagine an artificer-fighter with thrown weapon fighting style, returning weapon, dual wielder feat and enhanced defense (DW and ED can make up for the loss of a shield's +2 to AC) tho :D getting sharpshooter and gunner/crossbbow expert feats later on can give benefits to throwing at range (from 5 to 120ft!) even though you won't get the additional damage
Colby: This is all the reasons thrown weapons aren’t the best mathematical choice....
Also Colby: Tune in next time when I tell you how to build a thrown weapon character!
I am the worst!
@@DnDDeepDivegotta test all the boundaries :D
h*ck yeah
You can use throw weapon with sharpshooter
www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/3u1mao/sharpshooter_feat_w_daggers_al_question/
@@myntefreja Jeremy and Mike don't always agree on rulings :) www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/19/does-a-melee-weapon-that-is-thrown-count-as-ranged/
i’ve never enjoyed being baited to watch a video as much i have now.
;)
I really appreciate what you said in this video. I've watched other optimization channels and even if they say that "this is a game" they still came off as "this is the best option and you're an idiot for choosing differently" or coming off that they are working on some higher plane of thinking. You always seem so genuine and really encourage having fun.
Thanks so much for this feedback! Makes me feel like my intentions are coming through :).
Kensei monk can upgrade darts to d10 eventually, and get a bonus action dart attack via ki-fueled attack (using deft strike or focused aim), and get magic darts with up to a +3 bonus :)
doesn't the kensai magic vveapon thing apply to a specific vveapon? Thats an issue if you're throvving it
@@MaMastoast For kensei it's a family of weapons, so all darts :)
Dart + archery + thrown weapon fighting + sharp shooter + sneak attack
Alternatively spear + dueling + thrown weapon + pole arm master
@@mcullennz Also if you make a dart a kensai weapon it is also a monk weapon and scales with your martial arts die. So at 5th lvl the dart becomes a d6 then a d8 eventually a d10 surpassing the bow.
@@ShardPF2e Uh the granting magic bonuses explicitly says one kensei weapon you touch so it implies it'd only be the one dart that would benefit from that.
"At 11th level, you gain the ability to augment your weapons further with your ki. As a bonus action, you can expend up to 3 ki points to grant one kensei weapon you touch a bonus to attack and damage rolls when you attack with it. The bonus equals the number of ki points you spent. This bonus lasts for 1 minute or until you use this feature again. This feature has no effect on a magic weapon that already has a bonus to attack and damage rolls."
Hi, finally a video on thrown weapons!
You can combine Dueling style and Thrown weapon fighting styles.
What I've find the most interesting with a thrown character is : Rogue Soulknife to keep "dueling" or a Ranger Hunter 11 / Artificer 2 to Volley a returning weapon if allowed.
My usual solution is to use a hand crossbow with the Crissbow Expert Feat and sometimes Sharpshooter. Then just cosmetically narrate it as whatever thrown weapon I want to use.
Tried to make a Javelin Thrower from Theros, and there was simply no other way to make it worth playing that I could find without homebrewing despite the fact that the Javelin and Hand Crossbow have identical stats.
Some DMs might even let you use STR instead of DeX. But in almost every situation Dex is better anyhow.
either;
Battlesmit/fighter, returning weapon infusion, and use your bonus action for your pet
or
Champion 3 / Rogue X, elven accuracy feat and start crit seeking those sneak attacks with a dart (do like the idea of aiming a dart into the eye of the big bad, while shouting "one hundred and eighty!")
The thrill when you announced what tomorrows video was! I am so excited for this one. I have tried to make thrown weapons work a few times now.
Thanks for mathing out the thrown weapon issues. I had always suspected it was bad by the math, but this is a great illustration of that. It seems like the simple fix is to update the thrown weapon description to include "counts as a ranged weapon" and be done with it.
You can just replace archery with dueling and have thrown weapon + dueling to get +4, as you drawing the weapon as part of every attack means that you always only need 1 weapon out at a time which qualifies you for dueling
Congrats on 5k my dude!
Looking forward to whatever you've got next. I'll bump what others have said in the comments that the monk is a great way to make thrown weapons more viable. The only time I played a thrown-weapom build was in a dragon slaying one-shot, it was as a monk and I had a blast staying just out of the dragon's melee range and pelting it with d6 darts while dodging as a bonus action for that sweet sweet advantage against its breath weapon.
Thanks!
I mean, if you have a boomerang, the weapon returns on a miss. If you take at least a level of fighter for thrown fighting, that grants you boomerang proficiency.
Just got here after you answered a comment i made at your video about the "Needler" build, it answered some of my questions, the idea i had wouldn't work with ranged options but it would let you do a third weapon attack with "Thrown Wapon Fighting" at level 6 by taking the "Dual Wielder" feat
"Dual Wielder" let you:
-Gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand. (Not so important to the case at hand)
-Use two-weapon fighting even when the one handed melee weapons you are wielding aren’t light.
(letting you dual wield even javelins or spears)
And most importantly
*-Draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.*
So, if you are able two draw 2 thrown weapons instead of one, and "Thrown Weapon Fighting" let you throw the weapon right after you draw it as a attack, can't you throw the second one you draw with "Dual Wielder" as your bonus action? That would solve the issue having to take "Crossbow Expert" to attack in your bonus action and it would have the benefits from both the "Two Weapon Fighting" and "Thrown Weapon Fighting" fighting styles!
Making the damage (using javelins for it's better range):
1D6+2 (as first attack) +1D6+2+ Ability Modifier (for the bonus action) +1D6+2 (with the extra attack) times two (using action surge)
I don't think it would be as strong as just taking a crosbow, using "Crossbow Expert" and having Sharpshooter, but it would be more viable that taking a shot with a crosbow to then throw 2 weapons
I love to think about those possibilities, even if it doesn't work or is not as viable ,thanks for having those amazing videos to create more discussion about it! Keep up the amazing work :D
I think though the advantage to a thrown weapon is it can still be used at close range, so you don't necessarily have to be built around thrown weapons, they're more a utility. Awesome videos as always!
Thank goodness for short videos. 😉
Number Cruncher? Naw, I can't believe it. You're a shining light of fun character builds. If they happen to make lots o' damage that is absolutely coincidental.
Ha ha yes! Finally, somebody gets me! :P
I think you could add dueling fighting style damage to thrown melee weapons, providing you are drawing then throwing each one seperately. The Soulknife Rogue and Stars Druid both offer ranged bonus action attack options for a dart wielder.
One great advantage to thrown-weapons, especially with a Dart build, is the ability to use nets well. This is particularly great for a fighter that can exchange an attack to get advantage on their other attacks.
I am playing a dart build now and it works really well BUT our campaign has a few things that I find really help this build work.
(1) We get a free feat at 1 which can't be a half-feat or SS/GWM/CBE. This makes helps with the investment cost of needing two fighting styles.
(2) There's a catalogue of items you can purchase weapon improvements from. One option is a returning dart. So no need for an artificer. Another is Bracers of Archery but they work for any ranged weapon.
(3) The subclass I play has a lovely bunch of bonus actions. So there is not much need for a way to generate bonus action attacks.
Hi Colby. Great discussion on the thrown weapo n fighting style and issues! Keep it up! :)
IMO there's no need for the dart setup to get that bonus action attack. You can do other stuff with your bonus action (hunter's mark, upcasted hail of thorns, branding smite, order steel defender to attack, etc) and your DPR won't drop off (in fact even increase in the 1st round with the fighter+gloomstalker chassis). Since no need to 2WF, you can keep a shield.
Sharing here as well my level 10 yondu dart build:
2 fighter, 5 battlesmith, 3 gloomstalker
custom lineage: elven accuracy (int)
asi: sharpshooter
fighting styles: archery, thrown
infusion: returning, enhanced defense/mind sharpener
fighter subclass upon level up: battlemaster (for quick toss and finally getting in that bonus action attack without needing to 2WF)
tactics:
bonus action: hunter's mark
action: 3 triple advantage attacks (3rd has an extra 1d8) with sharpshooter, infusion and thrown fighting style bonuses
action surge: 3 triple advantage attacks (3rd has an extra 1d8) with sharpshooter, infusion and thrown fighting style bonuses
future rounds you just get 2 attacks but the 1st round nova 6 attacks assures you remove a high threat target off the board while weakening a 2nd. On those succeeding 2 round attacks, you can get a 3rd attack by ordering the steel defender to attack or simply increasing the dmg of those 2 attacks by upcasting hail of thorns/branding smite for the 1st attack and using favored foe on the 2nd attack (break concentration of hail of thorns/branding smite since it's expended).
BTW I hope you don't mind me sharing build ideas in the comments sections in your vids. I'm thinking if you/others get to read them, you think of something i could've missed to make it better. :)
The last day or 2 I've been wondering how to get a thrown weapon build to work and kept finding conflicts that you pointed out. Thank you for validating my frustrations. I will definitely be checking out your Needler video next!
You might also enjoy the episode next week :).
6:24 haha the nickname is now official
If you can't beat 'em... ;)
@@DnDDeepDive I let out an audible chuckle.
Kensai monk. Echo Knight. (Darts+sharpshooter+archery+thrown weapon fighting) and unarmed strike+flurry of blows+stunning strike in melee with echo) imo currently playing, its fun.
Hi Colby. I'm guessing Soul Knife for psychic blades and Battlemaster or Rune Knight for extra attack and added damage, maybe some Whispers bard too. Great vid as always.
I made a psi warrior fighter with the Artificer initate feat for magic stone and and catapult along with thrown weapon fighting. He is working out great since he only has to focus on intelligence with +2 into int at 4 getting up to 20 (I did custom linkage for +2 int and got very lucky with my rolls) and crusher feat (with +1 to con) at level 6 I’m currently at 7th level and doing 1 d6 + 1 d8 + 12 (with psyonic strike) per attack and controlling enemy movement with cruncher and telekinetic thrust and if I get a crit I action surge and get more attacks at advantage due to crusher. It’s great can’t wait till level 11 when I can do 1d6 + 1 d10 + 12 on 3 attacks!! Only problem is that since magic stone is a bonus action for 3 stones and action surge gives no bonus action action sure is kinda useless for damage in my build
Biggest issue with a build centered around throwing weapons is that you will have to retrieve those weapons.
Even if you have 10 throwing weapons, that means you can attack 10 times before you need to retrieve one or two, costing movement and potentially putting you in a compromised spot on the battlefield. Then, you can only pick up one item as a free action before having to use an action to interact with a second item, unless you also have dual wielder feat, which allows 2 interactions as free.
So, once you've exhausted all of your weapons, you need to give up your movement and position to retrieve only 1 or 2 weapons before resorting to giving up an action to retrieve another.
The only other option is to just abandon the strategy you've based your entire build on mid-fight, and resort to melee combat; if you still have any weapons, that is.
Yes, you can just carry more and more weapons, but unless you have something like a bag of holding, weight is a factor. Unlike ammo for a ranged weapon, throwing weapons weigh like a pound or so. You can't just carry 100 of them.
That's not even considering the logistics of retrieving weapons from a creature that is huge or larger. How does one retrieve thrown knives from an adult dragon that is still alive and well?
I really want it to work but i just don't see it happening without a specific class or subclass being designed for it that has some kind magic ability allowing you to retrieve them at will.
I do throw my Shadow blade sometimes. I guess that doesn't count, but i would love a build doing this all the time ;)
Yea that’s what I was thinking!
I asked my DM if I could re-skin hand crossbows to look like daggers. I took all the crossbow feats and abided by all the restrictions for the crossbows. It allowed me to recreate a Bullseye type character without driving myself crazy. I wasn't giving my character any advantage, my crossbows just happened to look like daggers.
I did the something similar when I wanted to re-create a Gambit type character for a campaign. I asked my DM if I could re-skin Eldritch Blast so each bolt looked like a thrown playing card. All the standard invocations applied and nothing mechanically changed but it looked way cooler. It also prevented me from banging my head into pulp trying to figure out a D&D 5E way to weaponize playing cards.
Quick Toss Battlemaster Maneuver: As a bonus action, you can expend one superiority die and make a ranged attack with a weapon that has the thrown property. You can draw the weapon as part of making this attack. If you hit, add the superiority die to the weapon’s damage roll. This would allow 3 darts in a single turn, all with sharpshooter, and more damage on the 3rd attack due to adding superiority dice.
Or better yet, a net... :) ua-cam.com/video/oFN0lgnuEto/v-deo.html
So, maybe not optimal but this is what I did.
Custom Lineage Bugbear, Ranger 5, Fighter 1
High Strength Axe thrower
Feat: L1 Dual Wielder, L4 Altert
Class: Ranger Gloom Stalker
Fighting Style: L1 Two- Handed Weap., L6 Initiate: Thrown Weapons
Regular 3 axes thrown per turn
1st round attack first: 4 axes - 2d6 bugbear surprise per hit, d8 extra attk. gloom stalker, +2 thrown per hit, Str bonus, Hunter’s mark? Favoured Foe?
Next level fighter Action Surge.
So, what you're telling me is...
With the sharpshooter feat I can do +10 damage with a net?
For bonus action thrown attack, what about 3 lvl Battlemaster (Quick Toss Maneuver), only 4 uses per short rest, but that isn't too sparse... And it saves you crossbow expert feat.
you can increase those superiority die via superior techinique fighting style and martial adept.
Congrats on 5K!! Proud member of the sub-200 club (maybe sub-100?)
Ha ha - thanks!
Also, if you throw darts with main hand you can still throw and axe with off hand. Or you could take poisoner and bonus action poison each turn and maybe even pick up some utility poisons or something along the journey.
Kensei Monk 6, with Tasha's Ki-Fueled Attack optional monk feature. You can spend a ki on Deft Strike so that one dart deals an extra MA die damage, then instead of both Action darts getting 1d4 (from the Kensei's Shot bonus action), you get a third dart attack as a bonus action. Still probably strictly worse than using a Longbow for 3x 1d10+dex + the MA die + possibly sharpshooter. It basically gives Kensei monks a Quick Toss maneuver, meaning you could look at non battle-masters.
Now you go fighter to 4 for archery/thrown, an archetype, action surge, and sharpshooter or more dex. Follow up to 7 or 11 fighter, or 7 or 8 monk, or move on to Ranger 3/4 for either additional alpha strike of the Gloomstalker or if you want to sprinkle darts across the battlefield, Fey Wanderer can add 1d4 to each enemy hit once per turn. It's still really sub-optimal, but 11 Fighter 6 Kensei 3 Ranger is a fairly reliable dart thrower. If you're Battle Master, that's 4/5 Quick Tosses and 6+ Ki Fueled tosses per short rest, which is a lot.
I feel teased...
Sorry not sorry! :P
What good is sharpshooter? It’s a variant feat. And even than. Thrown weapons are not ranged weapons for a reason. They are an alternative option to overcome some distance and not meant to be a main form of attack
Barbarian with dueling and thrown weapon styles can stack str+rage+4 on damage dice. You can even reckless attack from range.
My character was a ranger who was proficient in archery, up was cursed to reincarnate with his owl companion. Since he died not too long ago he has been turned into a teenage rogue who I wanted to specialize in daggers,and specifically throwing daggers to keep with the theme of him being a sharpshooter…that being said I have no idea if rogues can be good at throwing. I’m high in dex and stealth so in theory I could be good at it. I didn’t think that far tbh
On D&D beyond I also see the boomerang as a ranged weapon.
I played around with idea for a little and best i can think of bumping damage mainly is with poisoners feat, or go paladin for smites. I could see kensi monk also working.
The piercer feat is worth considering here too. It applies equally to each crossbow or dart attack but of course hand axes can't get it and while slasher is good in its own way it doesn't increase damage as piercer does
I think definitely at later levels. Earlier on, elven accuracy and sharpshooter do more.
I liked Judeau from berserk, so making a fighter knife and dart thrower would be perfect for him.
I’m actually playing a barbarian right now that’s nearly an exact replica of Guts because I too am an enjoyer of Berserk. My DM even has us on a quest right now to get “The Dragonslayer” which he made pretty much the exact big sword from the manga. Can’t wait for the clang!
I have an idea for a character that is named Tony Tomahawk he throws axes and when he runs out he becomes an unarmed grappler.
Can’t wait for your video tomorrow.
I’m hoping it’s an arakocra Eldritch knight.
Two weapon fighting style
Thrown weapon fighting through fighting style feat.
1st attack throw spear, 2nd attack throw spear bonus action return spear through weapon bond 3rd attack throw spear. Other attacks I’m pulling javalins and raining pain from the sky. That’s if spear is considered a light weapon of course.
it isnt'. Though it shouldn't matter as long as you have alot of spears in stock.
Not sure how to shoot 3 times with hand crossbow having them in both hands. I know with feat there is no loading property, but that was meant more like a speedbump at loading instead of just removing a need of a hand to reload. Like in bows, they have no loading property, but it assumes you can still hold it in one hand while with the other hand you set up the arrow. Or with sling you put the stone in the container with a free hand.
You just use one crossbow :). The feat says that you can ignore loading (not ammo, so you still need a free hand), and when you attack with a one handed weapon (which the crossbow is), you can make a bonus action attack with the hand crossbow. So attack with the hand crossbow, then BA attack with the same hand crossbow :).
Archery + thrown weapon feat, throw arrows. Boom done 😂
This is amazing! Thanks I originally started this build as Judeau from Berserk then became a captain america type. It wont be minmaxed by I do like the idea of a handaxe swingin and dart throwing if i cant pick my axe up. I really wanna mess with artificers too!
I think there should be a feat dedicated to enhancing thrown weapons. Ranged weapons get one, great weapons get one, why not thrown? Doesn't need to be mechanically identical (-5 accuracy +10 damage) but there should be something to incentivise the play style for a striker build.
Although Dueling synergizes with Thrown Weapon Fighting so you can get a persistent +4 damage which is pretty nice, considering no accuracy penalty. Makes light hammers on par with a d12 weapon on average (2.5+4/hit but less potential to deviate from that average above or below).
I''ve commented this before but I like a Dwarven light hammer thrower who specializes in controlling the layout of the battlefield with the Crusher feat. Maybe a Rune Knight Fighter, for the sake of increasing the largest creature size you can push around? Or a Battlemaster for those maneuvers to help control the field. Just remember to not hold two weapons at a time, because that stops you from getting the Dueling bonus.
Edit: typo
It's probably too late game to matter, but I can't help but feel that a Kensai thrower has some potential. Scaling dart damage up to 1d10+15 with martial arts dice, sharpshooter and 20 dex, or 2d10+15 with a ki point (spent after confirming the hit, for crit shenanigans up to an eventual 4d10). Squeeze gunner or XBE in there so you can throw in melee if needed and get your unarmed/flurry hits in too. It's not gonna be optimal, but there's some possibilities there that are itching in the back of my brain.
- Quick toss maneuver + Net + Elven Accuracy + Artificer lightning weapon..........good enought, maybe????
12:00 only of you ignore that you still have to reload the weapon as stated in the still active ammunition tag.
Which needs a free hand to do
Rather than archery I'd take the thrown weapon fighting style. Make action economy smoother for drawing a weapon to throw (it's part of your attack) and gives + 2 to hit when throwing them. I use it on my tempest cleric to turn javelins into zeus's thunder bolt
It's fine I'm still building my thrown weapons horizon walker ranger some day
I just literally made a thrown fighting character about two weeks ago. I went kensei monk and battle master fighter. There’s the quick toss option from that fighter that lets you bonus action attack. Either way, I really like the character.
Soul Knife Rouge can help with Thrown Weapon fighting style, in fact as written the Psychic Blades aspect of Soul Knife feels like it requires thrown weapon to get all the attacks.
So... investment wise... throwing weapon builds are pretty much 1 game feature choice behind regardless of how you cut it?
Maybe the battlemaster helps a bit with the new maneuver?
The ace thrower only wins since axes are wrongly calculated. They should be one die lower in damage. The whip and the trident being the other two weapons that are bad. The longbow and heavy crossbow could have that flaw, but I assume that a certain distance might also explain a drop in damage.
I'm upset, yet delighted.
Mu ha ha ha ha! ... Oh wait, crap, don't Troll the DM! Bad!
What is your thought on a Tavern Brawler and playing with improvised weapon options. It might be DM dependant but there might be some wiggle room there.
What they need to do is reword Sharpshooter to include Thrown Weapons instead of simply Ranged Weapons, the issue would be fixed. Many DMs homebrew this anyway, in my experience.
one redeeming quality of the dart vs. the hand CB, is that it doesn't require a hand to load, so you can use a shield for +2AC. lose the bonus action attack from hand CB, but get a shield.. the problem is that in order to use the extra attack with thrown weapons, you need the thrown fighting style because you have only 1 object interaction per round to draw a dart. the +2 damage is much worse than +2 atk for the synergy with SS, and you benefit less from SS without a bonus action attack. also, if you don't get CBM, you get disadvantage on 5ft attacks which makes CBM a must for thrown darts with SS. And by then you have a build with CBM+SS, so might as well use a hand crossbow...
Congrats on 5k subs
Thank you!
Battlemaster maneuver bonus action thrown weapon attack, more damage, still applies as ranged, and can be done 4 times per short rest, not perfect but pretty nice
The problem is that thrown weapons only ever do a d4. Ranged weapons do up to a d10. The only way to buff that damage is to play monk.
Late to the party, but my main issue with Thrown Weapon Builds is having a DM that gives you enough magic Darts to overcome immunity/resistance of most monsters. At least the Returning Weapon Infusion is a great addition for thrown builds, although I wish it was available as a Feat instead of requiring 2 Artificer levels.
Agreed. I’d like to believe that most DMs would make it a magic item that’s available to the character at some point in the game, especially if you talk with them in a session 0 or something about what you’re trying to do with the character. Probably should have mentioned that in the final thoughts :)
A question I have with using darts is can you use the dueling fighting style with it? Stack on 3 fighting styles with sharpshooter. There's plenty of other good ways to use your bonus action other then an attack. Depending on how you build it
edit: I just looked it up to double check. It says melee weapon specifically for dueling
You know you're old when people in the comments of a video about thrown weapons being underpowered aren't talking about the hulking hurler.
The simple fact is thrown weapon lags because it wasn’t a real world thing. Not as a sole specialized weapon. It was an opening gambit as you draw to close quarters or an attack of opportunity as conditions allowed. Knife throwers had a especially large knife or short sword to use in the thick. That you didn’t just throw pointy/sharp/hard things at an opponent surrounded by your allies without a very high risk of friendly fire limited the real world use. In the world of game mechanics it isn’t as much of a risk. The entire debate is just down to the game mechanics. Those mechanics were built to translate real-world to game-world: they mostly concentrate on the most common questions or situations. This leaves niche techniques and situations unexplored. The game just doesn’t reward their use. Truly if the table wants them to be more useful just repurpose existing feats to improve them. Give them benefits equal to their functions. Obviously reach , a sharp object flying at your eyes might screw up your attack, and others.
I personally would call it both.
I would argue that by RAW you can stack Thrown Weapon, Dueling AND Two Weapon Fighting, since Thrown Weapon allows you to draw a weapon as part of the attack. Additionally, a single level of Barbarian would allow you to add +2 Rage damage to axe attacks, as they're str based melee weapons. That would give you 1d6, +str +6. And a 2nd level would give you Reckless Attacks, which would give you an effective +5 to hit, as well as Danger Sense. Personally I like this character as a Barb with a Fighter Dip. At least at early levels. Should also keep in mind that Champion gets a 2nd fighting style @lvl 10, so if you can wait that long it negates one feat expenditure.
good idea on optimizing the strength route (and making a barbarian useful lol) instead of the usual elven accuracy + sharpshooter + dart setup.
Shadowblade tosser build?
(Familiar w ring of spell storing can use “self” on master and concentrate on and bonus action reform the offhand shadow blade)
its plausible at lower levels but drops off at higher levels due to inability to work properly with extra attack, haste, action surge, dread ambusher.
Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn’t you do more damage using the hand crossbow against 20 AC characters with the sharpshooter turned off? If that is the case, than the hand crossbow always wins.
Playing Sword Bard TWF DW feat throwing 3 weapons a turn adding Bardic damage to attack. Dropping thrown weapon when in melee pulling out long swords. Med armour dex 14 and half plate AC 18. Option to add Bardic Die to AC.
Clearly, it is a dart thrower, using kensei/fighter multiclass. Kensei gets the bonus action dart throw (ki-fueled attacks paired with deft strikes)and bumps the damage die of the dart up, fighter to get the fighting styles feat free (or at least less) and get 3 attacks at fighter lvl 11.
Would Fighter, fey touched feat hunters mark, dualing weapon fighting style and thrown weapon fighting style from Fighting Initiate on a lvl5 char be alright? That brings a handaxe upto a 2d6+4+mods per hit. You just need to get advantage somehow
Spear + dueling + thrown weapon + pole arm + piercer + crusher
RAW i dont know if, as a fighter, you could take the attack action, and use one attack within 5ft, bonus action attack from polearm, then use the rest of your attack to throw the spear
Something I keep wondering but feel dumb asking - how do these thrown weapon fighters go around with a dozen or more handaxes or javelins to hand? Surely you'd spend half your time picking up weapons from the ground or out of creatures' skulls.
Awesome video.
Thanks! Part of the short rest is dislodging axes from various corpses ;)
my dms also asked me this and I didn't know what to answer haha! so they made my character an awesome javelin quiver homebrew item later on
Have you thought about making pathfinder 2e builds.
So how to make a Thrown weapon fighter that works damage wise? Well if you have 10 minutes to spare, 10 lvls of whisper bard + 5lvl Battle master fighter Superior Technique + 2 paladin Thrown Weapon Fighting + 5 hexblade pact of the blade with Eldritch Smite + Thirsting Blade invocations + Martial Initiate, Two Weapon Fighting = 1st attack 4d6 Divine Smite (bard spell slot) +2st attack 4d6 Divine smite (bard spell slot) + bonus action melee weapon attack + 3d6Divine Smite (bard spell slot) + 4d8 Eldritch smite (warlock spell slot) + Thrusting blade gives your pact weapon a second attack, throw and deal 4d6 Eldritch Smite + 3d6 psychic wispers + quick toss 1d6 + 1d8. I have not acconted for crits, haste, spells like Thunderous Smite or weapon type, but except for the bard spell slots these all reset on a short rest, if your bard still has a 3th spell slot left cast catnap on yourself which takes 10 minutes to get the benefits of a short rest.
I don't know about you but triple smite + throwing stuff sounds cool to me!!!
Custom lineage with resilient dex (or skill expert) +3 dex
1st level fighter for dueling fighting
4 levels in Soulknife rogue + fighting initiate thrown weapon fighting
Do you think is there any way to play a good Whip Ranger (revised ranger and beastmaster)? Im starting a campaing rn as a Ranger and for some reason i really wanted to use a whip
On the list!
@@DnDDeepDive Please add optimizing a net to the list. Consider it a true challenge to your skills. 😁
Maybe an Eldritch Knight? You could weapon bond with the net to call it back.
Mending would be a good cantrip, so that you can easily repair the net.
To optimize a whip, it might be better to go with Paladin for smite and then add Hex or Hunter’s Mark. What about a Hexadin, starting with Hexblade to make make the whip charisma-based. If you go Oath of the Ancients, then that has a Ranger feel. Instead of an beast companion, you could fight while mounted! 😃
Any of the cookie cutter gloomstalker + fighter builds with longbow/crossbow should make the whip work. Simply replace those weapons with whips. Doing a beastmaster however will mess that up though since beastmaster are best built wisdom based and as spellcasters/shillelagh or magic stone users.
Just, uh, two darts, then quick toss for a bonus action 3rd dart
I hope it's a Psi Warrior / Soulknife combo!
Instead of using thrown weapons our Ranger reflavored a crossbow as using random assortments of cooking utensils. Was sad for him that mechanically thrown weapons are just really suboptimal to use despite being so awesome thematically.
Ha ha! Awesome
My hoplite like fighter is too busy holding a shield to two weapon fight. He's also a champion so I don't use a feat for that second fighting style, big brain 🧠
The problem with thrown weapons is the HP system. What makes thrown weapons so deadly in real life, is you tend to kill or incapacitate your target with a single throw. In D&D you dont kill in one hit, or do any real injury's to debilitate your foe so its not effective. Why focus on thrown when you can do more damage in melee (which is fair since its not a ranged attack) and the range is much shorter than a bow/crossbow (which makes sense)? Thrown weapons either need to do just slightly more damage than actual ranged weapons, but less than melee, or they need to apply conditions and have the same damage as real ranged weapons (for game balance).
I think the damage you lose with throwing weapons is out weighted by the versatility of ranged and melee combat. The thrown weapon build I imagine is a medium armored axeman running around slashing down one enemy then throwing his off hand axe across the battlefield and taking down another. The ability to allway make an attack no matter where you are on the battlefield
CritLander, noice
What about shuriken?
Could've just said "Cantrips" and ended the video. So many ways to get them, great for peppering/weakening foes at greater range than thrown weapons, and fairlt easy to access through low level magic items if nothing else. With the limited range and most foes closing for melee or ranged attacking from afar, even having only a few uses of a basic cantrip per day practically makes most thrown weapons obsolete.
That being said, thematically... thrown weapons ROCK!! And as far as logistics and play... one phrase captures the largest dilemma of using throwing weapons. Make better use of your movement/ranges. And carry enough of them to make a difference. Use a partial retreat/dance as your enemy closes to weaken them with your daggers, hammers, hatchets, etc. Then shift to your melee and bust them a new one. Of course, simply carrying a bow ALSO makes thrown weapons a joke. The BEST instances for throwing daggers exist in wide open areas and mostly melee foes, or indoors... long winding hallways and catacombs that enable you to lead an opponent while using you're thrown weapons (often from behind partial cover) to mess them up.
And their Primary Use is in suprise situations... like the apache fighters. Create an ambush that starts completely silent as you close up and surround, then the entire party attacks blitzkrieg style while yelling and creating chaos among the enemy. Choos a target and lay into them with a thrown dagger or two followed up with a melee attack. And as one opponent goes down, rinse and repeat, using your movement to peovide more thrown attacks against enemies in melee with your other companions (no risk of getting whacked with opportunity attacks). And thematicallt this Rocks.
Though on paper its better for everyone on your side to tag assault each enemy until they're dead befor moving on to the next. Because thiner ranks equal fewer attacks damaging your team.
But thats just my take on things.
HuGGz
Be me: thrown weapon ranger
Beast Master
Find net
The hell is this . JPEG
Take sharpshooter
Nets now useable at 10-15 feet without disadvantage.
There is no save
Pet now always attacks with advantage.
Anyone who attacks after me and before the bad guy has advantage.
Bad guy or an ally has to burn an action to free them.
Meh u could just have a wolf or something with pack tactics if u want advantage. And u don’t have to hit with a net to get this. Also not to mention the beastmaster sucks raw. Raw u have to give up your attacks if u want your beast to attack. Yea I know it’s really dumb. Any Dm that would actually rule it this way and not say screw it to that I definitely wouldn’t want to play with. And this is just one of the reasons they suck. They were so good in 3.5 and they completely cucked them in 5e and it makes me made. When I say so good in 3.5 I mean busted (like most things in 3.5 lol). So I expect them to have toned it down a little in 5e but they did it way too much.
Anyway sorry for the rant.
Also if I remember net has 5-10ft not 10-15ft could be wrong tho. Unless it goes out farther cause of sharpshooter idk.
you can still use thrown weapons with archery and sharpshooter. Just use darts.
Ok! ua-cam.com/video/oFN0lgnuEto/v-deo.html
Kensai monk 11, battle master fighter 6, hunter ranger 3 or gloom stalker. Make dart kensai weapon. Cuatom linage use piercer feat sharp shooter feat, bump dex. Should be pretty good
nice! i have a very similar build somewhere in the comments here. I just switched kensei with battlesmith (returning infusion).
using darts
variant human int/dex fey touched int/hunter's mark
14 dex, 14 con, 15 int point buy (totals: 15dex, 14 con, 17 int)
psi warrior 5 thrown weapon fighting style, asi sharpshooter
order of the mutant 3 blood curse of the marked, archery fighting style, pick a rite, celerity (dex/dex max +3), sagacity (int/int max +3)
battlesmith 3, returning weapon
finish off going fighter until you get a 3rd attack, then do w/e. if you want asi, just drop a level into battlesmith or blood hunter to get lvl 4 asi from them
use celerity, giving you total of 18 dex until you get 3 in battlesmith, then switch to using sagacity for a total of 20 int
continue to increase int to 19 as increasing to 20 is pointless since sagacity potion will scale to give us +5int/int max. it scales off character level, not blood hunter level
idk, didn't number crunch, but +7 int modifier tossed onto dart attacks seems good enough. bonus action is pretty bogged down with hunters mark and blood hunter stuff anyways so wouldn't have much time to do bonus action attack. also, high int benefits psi warrior damage things.
Polearm Master and Crossbow Expert are a blight on 5e.
This is idiotic. Having a feat for a bonus action to do some sustained damage isn't a blight, there should just be more options to do that so not everyone goes down the same path.
Dont think i missed you liking Critlander.
i may not have been the first but ill be damned if i wasnt persistant.
;)
@@DnDDeepDive Might i add, Mr.Lander, that i am looking forward to your throwing weapon build. I had another build that crossed my mind the other day.
i being the one who mentioned the genielock3lorebardX for dpr/CC/party face
Maybe, a warrior of nature. A Pally2SporesdruidX
Pally smites are satisfied by druid spells, and spores not only produced massive temp HP, but bonus action eco as well through the spores and whatever else you have casted. IDK if the DPR gets anywhere near crazy, but maybe an investment to make if you roll those sweet sweet stats
@@duckmandude Mr Lander! lol - ok, on the list.
Don't the "best" thrown weapons use STR?
The problem with knife throwing is in real life a knife thrower is much more badass than in the movies or games.
In real life no reload no spin
Knife throwing consist s of
Three or four knives held in each hand and thrown One at a time in
A fast fluid motion.
It's like a machine gun with knives.
Yes but they are also a ranged weapon .
my dm says its cool
Are javelins not thrown ranged weapons?
javelins are melee (str, can't apply the last part of sharpshooter) weapons with the thrown property but no finesse (for dex rolls) or light (for two-weapon fighting) properties ): but I still love javelins tho so my dragonborn fighter artificer uses them!
I can imagine an artificer-fighter with thrown weapon fighting style, returning weapon, dual wielder feat and enhanced defense (DW and ED can make up for the loss of a shield's +2 to AC) tho :D getting sharpshooter and gunner/crossbbow expert feats later on can give benefits to throwing at range (from 5 to 120ft!) even though you won't get the additional damage