New High-Speed Universal Head for my Kearney Trecker & Milling 3H Machine - ALMOST!
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- Опубліковано 29 сер 2024
- I found the high speed universal head for my Kearney & Trecker Model 3H Milling Machine I have been looking for. I went to Milwaukee to pick it up and bring it home a few weeks ago and bought it from a gentleman who spent 30 years working for K&T. When I got home and installed it on my machine, I discovered that the drive gear for it was not quite right...
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I worked with Ron Grundy for many years. In fact I rebuilt many of the vert./ universal heads. We both worked in the renewment division til K&T closed
This sort of stuff happens... this is one of the reasons we "love" the old machines, they have quirks and history surrounding them.
7:30 Based on that smile, I feel like we are "enabling" an addict with his Iron Deficiency
You do amazing things. I have been a machinist since I was 8 years old. I own a shop North of Pittsburgh, Pa. And have learned alot watching your videos! Keep up the great job!!
You will get the milling machine worked out. The best part is the new friend that you made. You two definitely have a few things in common.
I love your enthusiasm and dedication. Thank you.
That's the way it works. Good luck Keith.
You are a easy going person, your talk and analysis of the situation is what we all need. Thank you for sharing
After following along for many years now, I am 100% confident this will get resolved and be completely functional. Hopefully it ends with another great story with a fine gent behind it too.
Thankyou for all the great videos , especially K and T machines 😎👍
Could you make a spacer plate to sit between the head and the machine. That would allow the gears to fully mesh and also give support.
I thought about the same, but probably the dovetail jaws have a complicated profile that needs to be duplicated on the spacer plate.
@@philipmihailov The pieces that actually engage could just be mounted on longer bolts with their own spacers.
@@philipmihailov I don't think it is a true dovetail as it does not slide. It is only really a clamp so it may be possible to move the original moving parts to a spacer plate without much effort as they seem to just sit in slots. The plate would really just be a thick steel 'gasket' with the same profile as the head flange and he could use slightly longer bolts to secure the dovetails to the rear in the same way they attach to the head. It may be a lot easier than messing with hardened gears.
It looks like even a 1/8” spacer would halve the misalignment. And it may be possible to carve another 1/16” out of the casing to give sufficient clearance.
It's a clamp, meaning that it would force the "teeth" of this clamp to catch half way (by the looks of things). Never a good idea. Basically, it would put this head in nanny mode, you wouldn't be able to run it 100%. No, the gear is pretty much the only way to go for this.
I love your honesty which is why we watch these Utubers - if this was a TV show it would just fit and we would not know the problems you run into. Although this is a pain for Keith I am sure he has discovered a lot of useful information for another machinist that wants to get a universal head.
I love the gear blueprint - tolerances listed as 5/10th's !! Gorgeous.
Mr Ronald Grundy is an honorable man.
I suspect the man you bought it from enjoyed the conversation with you just as much or more than you did. Maybe talk to Martin gear in Minneapolis. Whenever we needed something out of the ordinary, they were able to make it at a reasonable price. It was just a matter of entering numbers on a CNC program. They can harden the outside of a gear without hardening the inside. They might make a gear blank with the correct teeth that you could finish. I'm sure other companies do the same thing.
my Ayla( my kitty) wants to see Ginger and Mary Ann- but we both like the video though sorry for the end part but your a American Craftsman you never give up thank you
Get into it with a ceramic insert Keith! Don’t let it beat you!
All of your videos leave me anxiously awaiting another video. Thanks for sharing.
If you got a list of a bunch of people that needed one of those gears to chip in and get a batch of custom gears made it could bring down the cost quite a bit. It is one option that could help a good amount of people out.
I love seeing these older machines still being used. My vote would be for a series of videos on making a new gear your self. It would be some great content. That is, if you have the equipment or access to the proper equipment to make the gear. I've always wanted to see an in depth look at setting up a super spacer that rotates with the movement of the table that is require for Helical involute tooth cutting.
OMG! Somebody please get Mr. Rucker the gear he needs please. I really enjoy your videos and your explanation of what is going on. Have a great weekend sir.
I am confident the proper gear will show up in a week or two, somone has one in a rack with a bunch of random 50 taper tooling!!
Another option would be to custom build a spacer for whole head. In old days this would be expensive. Today with Cnc laser cutters this is actually cheap
That would indeed seem to be a possible option.
Yeah, go price cutting a 1/2" plate of that size, and keep in mind that it'd have to be ground flat and parallel on both sides. I'm sure you'll find that "cheap" is not the exact right word.
@@LambertZero the grinding kieth would do. The cutting of half inch steel plate for spacer, like i said, with the cnc of todays world it is cheaper than getting a custom gear ground up, this is due to cost of steel and hardeneing, then machining and grinding is quite expensive.
Or in dollars wise a $100 dollar cut plate spacer vs an almost $1000 dollar gear. Spiral mated gears are NOT cheap at all.
Look at shot of back of the head at beginning there is not a lot of surface to make a plate for. Years ago cutting this all by hand with a plasma or oxy/acc would have been very expensive. Today with laser, waterjet, or even plasma cnc its actually cheap.
@@jacilynns6330 Won't fit on the surface grinder. It'd have to be blanchard ground.
@@LambertZero if those gears drives are as rare as Keith says the price will be high, that's the capitalist way supply versus demand. 1/2" plate plasma cut must be cheaper, cheaper still if Mr R uses his many machines.
Keith, looking forward to seeing how this comes together. I've got a similar 2:1 universal head for my B&S No 2 Univ Hor mill and love it! It came from the factory that way with the crane as well. ;)
Of course it would be nice to get the parking attachment ready to use. OTOH I really enjoyed watching the videos of Adam Booth making one for his K&T :-)
That's funny. Abom79 building his parking attachment basically made me start watching machining videos. I have not seen him use it since then.
It’s cool you got to know a guy who did the factory rebuilds. How i would enjoy meeting the guys at Hardinge in Elmira, NY. I would have lot’s of questions for them. Good luck in your hunt.
Another idea as a easy-ish interim as the gears do mesh is a ground spacer plate? until you find the correct gear.
Enjoyed Keith!
ATB, Robin
That will always be the problem with buying used, you can hit or miss. But will definitely be a learning experience that hopefully we all learn from.
Headaches Goes with the territory
I KNOW THAT FEELING, I HAD A 68 DODGE POWER WAGON, BIG FLAT FENDERS, WIDE RUNNIN BOARDS, I WENT ALL OVER HUNTING PARTS ESPECIALLY TRANSMISSION PARTS, YOU FEEL SO GOOD SHES ALL COMING TOGETHER, BUT THEN NO, PILOT SHAFT OR A THROWOUT BEARING IS WRONG, JUST MAKES IT SWEETER WHEN ITS ALL DONE
What about making a spacer between the machine and the head? It'd only be what, half an inch? You get to use the high speed head with this gear, and you could save this gear, instead of cutting it down, for the heavy duty head if you ever decide to get one of those, and you don't have to get into the expenses of machining a gear.
I'm not entirely sure of the design, but it looks like these gears are dry meshed, especially given that the dovetailed plates on the back don't seem to seal at all. Because of this, you could make that spacer plate that slides onto the machine and replaces what those dovetails did. Put the spacer on first, then put the gear on the machine, then the universal head, then bolt the head to the new backing plate. You may even be able to keep the backing plate bolted onto the head and have the gear located in place when removing it; which would be an added benefit when taking the head on and off, as a single assembly is better than something you have to disassemble and reassemble each time.
If you cannot find the correct gear, this is the avenue I'd personally go down. It's a better choice than the two evils of sacrificing a gear to make the tool work and paying money to have a new gear made.
A bomb 79 build a parking attachment for his Kearney trecker maybe you can find blueprints for your Milwaukee.
Adam has a whole series of building the parking attachment for a K&T mill, as always with Adam it is probably an improvement on the original.
@@althalus401 Adam could make a 13 part series on building the perfect toilet paper holder.
The drawing that Keith showed earlier of the correct parking attachment looks nothing like the one Abom made.
If I'm not mistaken Adam made a copy of the parking attachment Kieth loaned him :) .. that one won't fit the bigger K&T mill.
Yeah I seen that - have to still find time to build my own version. I have 2E. Most of the mills came without parking attachment.
good call
Hi Keith, look forward to seeing you work out a solution. I always say that just about anything can be solved and I'm sure that you will sort it.
regards
Gareth
I think you are smart to wait and see what you can find. Thanks for the project. Appreciated.
Time to extend VintageMachinery.org to have a marketplace function. Instead of checking 50 orso trading sites, 1 site specialized in vintage machinery.
It has a buy sell trade section
Either way we will be here enjoying your content Keith
Cheers
I'd like to see a tear-down and cleanup video on that new universal head. Always interesting to see the insides of various machinery.
Good luck getting the right gear! I really enjoy your videos, this is probably the closest I'm going to get to the machinery you have. Thanks again.
I would DEARLY love to have a universal head for my Brown & Sharp #2.
They come up occasionally but I don’t have the cash for them right now.
Great video, Keith. As you know, the gear problem is a speed bump but that attachment will let you move more metal than a Bridgeport type mill can.
Not knocking Bridgeports, I’d love to have one. That’ll happen next year. 🤞
Good luck and thanks,
John
You'll respect that tool more with the challenges well met !!
A real bummer Keith but, we all know you'll come up with the best solution, and we wait with baited breath.Thanks for all the fin videos so far. Best wishes from UK.
From here it's hard to tell but someone's idea of a spacer certainly seems like worth considering.
Nice milling aslo!
Looking at the print for the gear you need, it specifies carburizing to 58-62 HRC 0.037" case thickness. If machining it needs to be done you might be in luck that it's just case hardened as well.
I have had the same experience, assumed the gear that came with my model H " War Finish " would work in a newer head similar to yours. The gear actually removed some material from the housing, before I realized something was wrong. With that and a 1/8 inch spacer , I am now using this head on both my vintage '45 H and a newer 330TF. Since the overarms mount on a separate piece, with the clamps firm, but not yet tightened down, I can adjust the gear backlash by just tapping the gear housing up or down, You can hear when the mesh is right.
Ah, the joys and pitfalls of vintage machinery.
Just remember, patience is a virtue.
I'd love to see you make a spiral gear!!! I've seen the setup in pictures and read the text on how to, but I've never made one nor have I seen one made. If you do make the pair, be sure to do a video on disassembling the universal head. It would be really interesting to watch!
I agree with the people here who are arguing for a spacer. The machining would be straightforward, and not an attempt to machine a hardened gear. In the event things don’t go as planned, your only out a piece of stock. If you machine the gear, you have the possibility of causing micro fractures during the machining. And as someone else pointed out, you will need to remove the gear from the taper, dish it out AND thin it, then remount it on the taper, which will also need to be shortened. That’s a lot of machining of very tough material. Conversely, an adapter can be cut or machined to match, and hardened (if desired) afterward. Then precision ground. And if your are not satisfied, you can still modify the gear. But hopefully you will find the right gear and not have to expend the time and effort. Although I am prepared to watch any and all! Good luck!
Good luck with the gear. Nice setup Keith.
19:30 - LOL about difficulty making a matching helical gear - as you've got a sample there, use that for indexing !
Time for a merger of old school and new school. Have one metal 3D printed!
Niice find with that head attachment! I also think that spacing the head out seems like the better option in this case if a new gear cant be found.
Check with Abom , he built the parking bracket for his mill maybe he’ll help you out.
That’s what I thought
I was thinking the same thing, And his was pretty close to original.
A thought... could you make one on the lathe? The gear looks similar to a multi-start thread. Put it in between centers and just make the gear like you would a giant thread but have a form tool in the shape of the gear profile.
Finding the NOS gear for the Wells Index was a lightning strike. Now he's asking for it to strike again ,,, Good Luck Keith.
Would have been interesting to see you make a new one, and probably quite a valuable resource for everyone else with the same problem.
On modifying that one, why not anneal it before machining and get it re heat treated?
3:48 I've got that thing where you see faces in objects - that's a funny expression on that one lol
Pareidolia is seeing faces in objects.
Keith, I have the same head on my 1942 K&T 2HL and it is really nice to be able to point the cutter any way you want. You didn't mention that the head and the drive mount separate and there is a spline shaft that allows the head to be moved out away from the column a foot on the over arms. I find it much easier to mount the drive without the head! Then set it on plywood on the table to mount the head on one overarm, then both, then push it onto the drive spline. Don't need a crane.
All the big machining guys used to work for Midwest machine in Minneapolis my father was good friends with the owner of that place sold them a lot of machines over the years
Sooo many possibilities with that head. If the gear is removable from the 50 taper holder I'd consider making a new 50 taper holder 1/2" shorter. If it's possible hard to tell without being there.
As always Keith makes it interesting; no matter what happens.
Soooo close! Good luck on the great gear hunt of 2020!
After seeing the tail stock show up for that big old lathe of yours awhile back, my bet is the correct gear will be showing up shortly. Great videos!
Great attitude! Good luck, will be watching.
THANK YOU...for sharing. Watched and very much enjoyed but sad that the gear didn't work.
You forgot another option!
Build a giant washer platefor it ,it would be hell of a cheaper and easy to do.All you need is a cnc cut plate steel in a right thickness ,surface grind/shaper it to dimension ,slide that bad boy on and be done with it .You would need to probably build spacers for those dovetails but that is super easy.
Head is already difficult to put on so one giant washer wont slow the process down.Way more easy than turning hardened steel or making a new gear.
Thanks for the video. Very interesting machine.
How about this ? Adam built a parking attachment for his mill and it was an interesting project. How about you build your own, and then we get to compare the 2? Could be fun !
Take that gear off the taper and bolt it directly to the spindle, indicate the center bore and call it a day!!
I really like option 1 because there is probably some guy just like you searching high and low fir the gear you have. I picked up a used follower rest for my 11” swing lathe that turned out to be for the same exact lathe but with a 12” swing. I thought about modifying it but am looking for the proper one for my lathe so I can eventually sell the one I have to someone who needs a steady rest for a 12” swing lathe.
I feel your disappointment. I have had the same kind of thing happen to me. It's a good feeling when you finally get it right. I sure hope you find the correct gear .
Keith was ruckering his own ruckers! =)
Hiya Keith
Hope you find the right gear Kieth, hell of a job to machine that one I would imagine, would you do like Kieth Fenner and heat it up and put it a bucket of lime to cool slow then harden it again after machining, good luck with the hunt.
Aww. SO close!
It's never easy. Enjoyed the video.
First thing to do would be to post the part number for the right gear on here Keith. It'll be on that drawing but you didn't show it.
Abom went to a big machinery wharehouse. They had everything. Might check with him.
Eric
Trying to find anything specific in that place would require a team of 50 experts and several months. Then the owner would refuse to sell it.
@@DirtyRobot but it would be fun to look...
I wish I could find that video
@@timreilly1533 Just go to Abom79's youtube page, click on videos and find it.
@@leeklemetti1887 it was posted about a week ago or so. It was while Adam n Abby were traveling
Time for an A-dapter Kit! Half inch bars and longer bolts to extend the dovetail clamps GETTERDONE!
Keith, as a machinist, you make it fit... :D :D :D
Don't you know someone with a EDM machine that can fix this gear for you. EDM eats everything...
I'm looking forward to seeing the attachment run when you find a solution. I have faith in your know how as nd ingenuity.
Problem with these things is you often have to be on the lookout for quite some time, until you find one. With your massive social network, things should move along a lot faster dough.
Just thinking about having his friend with the gear making equipment make the needed gear. Since Keith has the blueprints, I'm sure at a gear company could make it.
The question is cost. Maybe the actual way to go is to suggest the company make a limited run of gears and then resell them? If somebody is "always looking for this gear" there should be some demand. And as we know, it is the setup that costs so much and takes so much time. Making a dozen of something will often take only a little bit longer than making one of something.
Some gear makers do make standard gears X number of teeth for a diameter If that gear happened to be one he could luck out never hurts to ask. I found one for a Punch press 30-inch dia had been sitting on a shelf for about 15 years got it at half price they wanted the room
Actually, you can count on your fingers on your hands how many of this type & brand of machine is in use in this country. Let alone somebody using the machine with the universal head. There's a reason it is called VINTAGE MACHINE. ORG So selling the gears becomes a no deal here.
If you can't get the right gear, maybe 2 options:
It looks like the gear and the taper are two parts. Maybe you can gain the distance by modifying the taper, op partly the taper and partly the gear.
The second option is (not very vintage machinery-like) to get someone with a wire EDM-machine to slice a bit of the front of the gear. This should be no problem for a hardened gear.
I,m interested to see what is going to happen.
If you have a local tool and die shop with an EDM you could have them wire off a slab from the front. Of course you'd still need to machine the recess but atleast that's not interrupted like cutting through the gear teeth which is no fun. Just a thought.
A good opportunity to spend some time restoring that head while you wait for an answer to the gear issue.
Yes, it certainly looks like a good clean-up and painting could be quite an improvement.
Keith, if you have to modify the gear you have... is it possible to temper it to a reasonable hardness, then machine? Obviously you'd have to harden it when modifications were done, but that might be your best bet. That'd probably require you to regrind the taper after hardening but that might be easier than hard turning that undercut.
very good keith
How many of us started scrolling down as soon as the video finished for that "I have one" comment?
6:00 I know a guy in Florida... :D
THAT is an awesome attachment!!! You know, you could make a 1/2" adapter to the dovetail hold down to hold the head in place a 1/2" away from the machine!?! Would that do for an interim fix? Just trying to think outside the box!!!
If you trim the gear - I'd look at the back of the gear to or the front - based on the holes. If you have to cut the gear - I'd consider talking to your gear guy he might be able to modify it on his gear easier than you. Be safe and take care. We want to see this work!
Nice add
Maybe Boston gear has one on the shelf that can be machined to fit can’t remember but think that’s what Keith fennel did?
My thoughts too gear companies use to get apprentices to make standard gears leaving the center blank so it would not take long to make a gear
IIRC Fenner made the blank and sent it to BG to finish it. That was the gear for the "Jumping Jack" head.
Keith can your friend that makes gears maybe have a blank gear (non-hardened) that you could machine further and get hardened after machining. Would not hurt to ask? Tell him you are looking for the gear to fit.
Hi Keith,
I hope you find the replacement gear Keith...
Have a good weekend
Paul,,
What about making a pair of spacers to space the head out far enough to give clearance to the gear?