I'm reading Patience With God right now, and I actually agree with much of what Frank says about the current church culture in North America. I struggle with many of the same conclusions he has come up with: It is consumer driven and celebrity populated; it is about entertainment and self aggrandizement; there is far too much of the "us vs them" mentality. While his case resonates with me, I also don't feel that the answer is to essentially attack and "liberalize" the doctrine of the church.
@c42u You people just cannot accept the moral bankruptcy of the religious right. When someone who knows about the problems, they accuse him of being mentally unbalanced. Sounds like he is more like a prophet than Samson to me.
He knows. He is were he wants to be now. Once you leave all the religious nonses you cant go back. Its impossible. It would be like believing in Santa again.
I disagree with Gary, because he does not respond to any of the key Frank's questions on Historic Church, which are central to what he says and does. However, I can't understand Frank's support for Obama either. How can anyone (especially Orthodox) believe in this pre-arranged 2-party system?
@twitcher73 There may be a difference between "liberating" doctrine from the right-wing Christian corporatist leaders that Schaeffer discusses and "libertine" doctrines that the right-wing always accuses the left of supporting.
A Christian does not believe in a book. We believe in our Lord Jesus Christ. Yet we revere the book deeply. Worldview-The Beatitudes our Lord gave us display this already...while He also left us His Church..and it still stand today--just as He said.
Yep I have had a complete switch in worldview; it happens! It means I'm honest with myself, admitting that at least I was wrong in what I believed. I wish more fellow Christians would apply "test all things" in their doctrinal beliefs (especially if they are in a particularly weird and modern Protestant faith)
There are many of us: "Recovering Evangelicals" ...it's ugly out there, people...no wonder Jesus turned over the money tables at the temple. And yes, you can believe in God and not embrace the modern day church...especially the money grubbing campuses across this country. yes, Frank enjoys the fellowship of the Eastern Orthodox Church. It's unchanged...close to the original ...
Maybe Franky made a switch because he saw the truth. What else could he do? So, Gary, you need to allow for the possibility that Franky is right. Or are you afraid of the truth?
I see that it's not about his living in his dad's Shadow. It's Frank seeing the reality and the contrast of a very real condition in America a situation that's extremely frustrating to deal with
How can you judge someone you don't even know? What did Jesus say about judging other people? Frank is genuinely seeking the truth. Unlike some...who think they OWN the Truth. You obviously have never genuinely sought to find the truth and have never even ventured on the path. If you did then you would know that repentance means changing your mind and seeing things more clearly. When I was younger I used to idolize my father, now that I am older I know what a ratbag he really was...Frank went through the exact same thing.
He beat the drum for the religious right, now he beats it for the religious left. As an Eastern Orthodox Christian I can say that many, many, many of us find him to be an embarassment.
+Bob Lenz Nope, he is not right. Orthodoxy is the ancient true belief. He changed since the '90. He is not speaking on a Google stage for no reason. If he was to speak orthodoxy, he wouldn't be there.
My question was really rhetorical. Schaeffer is proposing an oxymoron. If he's right about correct belief, then he's wrong because he would be correct.
If there's no correct belief...then that *must* also include *his* beliefs. Thus, making his own argumentation completely and utterly irrelevant. It's a self-defeating, circular argument. How anyone can come to these conclusions after becoming Orthodox is beyond me.
(Is there no such thing as correct belief). My opinion is: there IS such a thing as "truth" but thinking that our little "monkey-brain" is going to separate out the absolute pure correct conclusions about such things - or even be able to fathom ultimate reality, would be self delusion of the highest order!
ORTHODOXY- My love, is it possible that you don’t even know what Christian orthodoxy is? There was no orthodoxy until the 4th century AD when Emperor Constantine convened the council of Nicaea. Constantine saw that “unifying” a religious belief system was critical to raising a “Christian Army” to rule and expand the Roman Empire. Hence the 430 bishops at Nicaea we’re tasked with throwing out all prior thoughts and beliefs about the ecclesiastical meaning to be found in the life and teachings of Jesus, and hammering them down to a set of beliefs that would define in rigid terms the Christian religion. Unfortunately, the new “orthodox” believers (Roman Church) then confiscated the church buildings and treasuries of all churches and Christians whose beliefs about Jesus differed from this new Orthodox Church (Nicene Creed believers) in Rome. At that point the now unified and powerful Roman Church partnered with Constantine to rob and often kill the “heretics” who disagreed with their Nicene Doctrinal creed. But was the new church Orthodoxy actually correct according to the vision and purpose of Jesus Christ? Of course not. It came way too late to reflect the essential beliefs and person of Jesus. Orthodoxy today only means conforming to the 4th century Roman Church, beliefs about Jesus, but it NEVER meant conforming to the beliefs of Jesus himself or his chosen disciples who lived 300 years before the Nicene Creed was even written.
What disturbs me with all these issues is :- You are either a follower /disciple of Jesus Christ and want to obey His teachings or NOT... If you are , you could be called a Christian, if you are NOT, then why would you even want to call yourself a Christian.!!!!????? It`s like buying a Jaguar but insisting you drive a Rolls Royce.!!
guess what!!!! Christianity is not the only religion, Frank who maintains his christian beliefs, he just shed the light on the judging nature of what Christianity has become. This was not Jesus' aim to judge, and condemn like so many Christian do. Jesus loves us ALL, God loves us all, the only ones who can judge would be God him/herself. The Christian Right would like to control you, and make you give up you freedoms. Frank is just now making an act of contrition. Yes, he is sorry.
When you become more concerned with the people speaking out against sin rather than concerned with the sin itself, I'm sorry but I really don't believe egomaniacs like Frank.
Egomaniac? Have you done any research on him and his beliefs? He comes across as a very humble man! Let's not judge him like the Pharisee. Let's' rather be the publican. God wants our heart and judging Frank is judging the Lord openly since we're on the internet. Why worry about another man's garden when you and I, both, have our own gardens to tend to. As a devoted Orthodox Christian of over 10 years, I would say certain views appear to differ slightly from what Orthodoxy teaches however I dont know him and we must not take all these small videos so seriously and out of context.... Do you know HOW many Christians believe differently than what they are taught? All of them... Just look at how we all live our lives...Where is the love? Compassion? Giving others the benefit of the doubt? Humility? For example... If you're a Christian, you've just showed what you believe by calling him a derogatory name but is it my place to judge whether you're a good representation of Christianity? You know only God can judge Zach. With all the evil happening in our world, we honestly dont have time to judge but to love. God bless us and have mercy on us all.🙏💕☦
I see that it's not about his living in his dad's Shadow. It's Frank seeing the reality and the contrast of a very real condition in America a situation that's extremely frustrating to deal with
No Theocracy. No Dominionism. Thanks Frank!
I'm reading Patience With God right now, and I actually agree with much of what Frank says about the current church culture in North America. I struggle with many of the same conclusions he has come up with: It is consumer driven and celebrity populated; it is about entertainment and self aggrandizement; there is far too much of the "us vs them" mentality. While his case resonates with me, I also don't feel that the answer is to essentially attack and "liberalize" the doctrine of the church.
Frankie switched? So did Saul.
It's not possible that a man can (God help us), see the light.
@c42u You people just cannot accept the moral bankruptcy of the religious right. When someone who knows about the problems, they accuse him of being mentally unbalanced. Sounds like he is more like a prophet than Samson to me.
He switched from protestant to orthodox and then to atheist!. This guy doesnt know what he wants.
He may have "switched" to Orthodox but he clearly never left the relativistic, individualistic protestant mindset.
He knows. He is were he wants to be now. Once you leave all the religious nonses you cant go back.
Its impossible. It would be like believing in Santa again.
I disagree with Gary, because he does not respond to any of the key Frank's questions on Historic Church, which are central to what he says and does. However, I can't understand Frank's support for Obama either. How can anyone (especially Orthodox) believe in this pre-arranged 2-party system?
Gary, you missed the whole point.
@twitcher73 There may be a difference between "liberating" doctrine from the right-wing Christian corporatist leaders that Schaeffer discusses and "libertine" doctrines that the right-wing always accuses the left of supporting.
A Christian does not believe in a book. We believe in our Lord Jesus Christ. Yet we revere the book deeply. Worldview-The Beatitudes our Lord gave us display this already...while He also left us His Church..and it still stand today--just as He said.
Yep I have had a complete switch in worldview; it happens! It means I'm honest with myself, admitting that at least I was wrong in what I believed. I wish more fellow Christians would apply "test all things" in their doctrinal beliefs (especially if they are in a particularly weird and modern Protestant faith)
There are many of us: "Recovering Evangelicals" ...it's ugly out there, people...no wonder Jesus turned over the money tables at the temple. And yes, you can believe in God and not embrace the modern day church...especially the money grubbing campuses across this country. yes, Frank enjoys the fellowship of the Eastern Orthodox Church. It's unchanged...close to the original ...
Maybe Franky made a switch because he saw the truth. What else could he do? So, Gary, you need to allow for the possibility that Franky is right. Or are you afraid of the truth?
I would love to see Frank Schaeffer go up against John MacArthur...
I would like to see John MacArthur go up against the real biblical Jesus Christ!
Why? MacArthur is a fundamentalist. And a calvinist. He is insane. There is no meaning in having a debate with those kind of people.
He left the deep end in '84.
Maybe you should stop judging the man
I see that it's not about his living in his dad's Shadow. It's Frank seeing the reality and the contrast of a very real condition in America a situation that's extremely frustrating to deal with
How can you judge someone you don't even know? What did Jesus say about judging other people? Frank is genuinely seeking the truth. Unlike some...who think they OWN the Truth. You obviously have never genuinely sought to find the truth and have never even ventured on the path. If you did then you would know that repentance means changing your mind and seeing things more clearly. When I was younger I used to idolize my father, now that I am older I know what a ratbag he really was...Frank went through the exact same thing.
@Archon33 Says not to judge>>>>>>>>proceeds to judge someone's judgment.
@@ontologicallysteve7765 Where is @archon33 judgement?🤨
He beat the drum for the religious right, now he beats it for the religious left. As an Eastern Orthodox Christian I can say that many, many, many of us find him to be an embarassment.
The church is an embarrasment
Wow...someone who changes his mind, perspective, and beliefs. The horror. 🙄
I was familiar with Frank's 1990-ies version. Having wached some of his recent interviews I myself see that his views have changed since 1990-ies....
Is Schaeffer correct when he says there is no such thing as correct belief? He presents as quite confused and angry!
+Bob Lenz Nope, he is not right. Orthodoxy is the ancient true belief. He changed since the '90. He is not speaking on a Google stage for no reason. If he was to speak orthodoxy, he wouldn't be there.
My question was really rhetorical. Schaeffer is proposing an oxymoron. If he's right about correct belief, then he's wrong because he would be correct.
If there's no correct belief...then that *must* also include *his* beliefs. Thus, making his own argumentation completely and utterly irrelevant. It's a self-defeating, circular argument. How anyone can come to these conclusions after becoming Orthodox is beyond me.
(Is there no such thing as correct belief). My opinion is: there IS such a thing as "truth" but thinking that our little "monkey-brain" is going to separate out the absolute pure correct conclusions about such things - or even be able to fathom ultimate reality, would be self delusion of the highest order!
ORTHODOXY- My love, is it possible that you don’t even know what Christian orthodoxy is? There was no orthodoxy until the 4th century AD when Emperor Constantine convened the council of Nicaea. Constantine saw that “unifying” a religious belief system was critical to raising a “Christian Army” to rule and expand the Roman Empire. Hence the 430 bishops at Nicaea we’re tasked with throwing out all prior thoughts and beliefs about the ecclesiastical meaning to be found in the life and teachings of Jesus, and hammering them down to a set of beliefs that would define in rigid terms the Christian religion.
Unfortunately, the new “orthodox” believers (Roman Church) then confiscated the church buildings and treasuries of all churches and Christians whose beliefs about Jesus differed from this new Orthodox Church (Nicene Creed believers) in Rome. At that point the now unified and powerful Roman Church partnered with Constantine to rob and often kill the “heretics” who disagreed with their Nicene Doctrinal creed.
But was the new church Orthodoxy actually correct according to the vision and purpose of Jesus Christ? Of course not. It came way too late to reflect the essential beliefs and person of Jesus. Orthodoxy today only means conforming to the 4th century Roman Church, beliefs about Jesus, but it NEVER meant conforming to the beliefs of Jesus himself or his chosen disciples who lived 300 years before the Nicene Creed was even written.
Nice try Gary! Frank is gifted as you said, but not just in past tense. He clearly runs circles around you!
Frank is the truth teller.
You're the only one that sounds angry 😅
No man ever believes that the Bible means what IT says, he is always convinced that it means what HE says.-George Bernard Shaw
And Shaw is wrong.
@@gch8810 really? how so?
Maybe in protestantism that is true.
What disturbs me with all these issues is :- You are either a follower /disciple of Jesus Christ and want to obey His teachings or NOT... If you are , you could be called a Christian, if you are NOT, then why would you even want to call yourself a Christian.!!!!????? It`s like buying a Jaguar but insisting you drive a Rolls Royce.!!
It's good that he had jumped out of the frying pan of Evangelicalism ~ but it's bad that he landed into the fire of unbelief!
Hit piece.
Great post, brother.
Why is this video even a thing? Haha
NO THEOCRACY
No secular theocracy.
Thanks for exposing Franky's hypocrisy as you read of Franky's own positive testimony of his parents' love when he wrote 'A Time for Anger'!
guess what!!!! Christianity is not the only religion, Frank who maintains his christian beliefs, he just shed the light on the judging nature of what Christianity has become. This was not Jesus' aim to judge, and condemn like so many Christian do. Jesus loves us ALL, God loves us all, the only ones who can judge would be God him/herself. The Christian Right would like to control you, and make you give up you freedoms. Frank is just now making an act of contrition. Yes, he is sorry.
He isn't a Christian now.
When you become more concerned with the people speaking out against sin rather than concerned with the sin itself, I'm sorry but I really don't believe egomaniacs like Frank.
You sound like a universalist, is that what you hold too?
A very depressing, hypocritical attack on a man of great integrity.
Spurgeon suffered of depression. Rich Mullins was an alcoholic. Thomas was a doubter. Peter, a liar. Frank-- honest.
Clearly, he is not an honest person. His narrative has changed drastically multiple times throughout his life. Dude is an egomaniac
@@Journey_of_Abundance Why egomaniac?
@taosimplicity Great point.
...Frank Schaeffer is a true Christian...
Standing tall for murdering babies. Yeah, true Christian.
he is an orthodox, so he has to hit the brake stop, regret,and ask for forgiveness,no speaking or write books but pray and God will show the way,AGAIN
This egomaniac is in no way representative of Orthodoxy. Most Orthodox are far more right wing than evangelicals.
Egomaniac? Have you done any research on him and his beliefs? He comes across as a very humble man! Let's not judge him like the Pharisee. Let's' rather be the publican. God wants our heart and judging Frank is judging the Lord openly since we're on the internet. Why worry about another man's garden when you and I, both, have our own gardens to tend to. As a devoted Orthodox Christian of over 10 years, I would say certain views appear to differ slightly from what Orthodoxy teaches however I dont know him and we must not take all these small videos so seriously and out of context.... Do you know HOW many Christians believe differently than what they are taught? All of them... Just look at how we all live our lives...Where is the love? Compassion? Giving others the benefit of the doubt? Humility? For example... If you're a Christian, you've just showed what you believe by calling him a derogatory name but is it my place to judge whether you're a good representation of Christianity? You know only God can judge Zach. With all the evil happening in our world, we honestly dont have time to judge but to love. God bless us and have mercy on us all.🙏💕☦
I guess this means Gary here has sold his soul for Trump.
Liberalisim is dead : All hail Progressivism.
I wonder if Gary is into children. He’s got that look.
Uhhh . . . what in the hell look is that ?
@@carlosidelone8064
Apparently the look Sergio sees in the mirror. What else can one surmise?.
I see that it's not about his living in his dad's Shadow. It's Frank seeing the reality and the contrast of a very real condition in America a situation that's extremely frustrating to deal with