If Mr Ross is correct, where does that leave an old testament King who was an adulterer and a murderer who shed much blood, who was also a man after God's own heart? Up a creek it would seem!
One of the few debates where both participants showed respect and courtesy throughout the debate. Bravo. Like the calvinist and reformed crowd Mr Ross in my opinion is bringing in a form of a back door works salvation. They say it’s a free gift but then state if one “practices” sin then you are not truly saved. This doctrine removes the simplicity that is to be in Christ which Paul warned us about in 2 Corint. Every Christian practices sin by word, thought or deed on a daily basis. A foolish thought is sin and how many foolish thoughts do we have in a day? This is teaching a dangerous version of the gospel in my opinion and will lead people to question their salvation since when they sin in their lives, they will have doubts. This doctrine changes the focus from the blood of Christ to you. I pray that God shows Mr. Ross this error and the warning in Matthew 7 resulting in Christ saying he never knew you could be those looking at their works to validate their salvation. Is believing on the gospel enough to get you saved for a Christian living carnally, absolutely but it doesn't mean that God won't chasten his son and you also risk losing out on the spiritual gifts in heaven and the blessings in this life. There are consequences to living carnally but it does not prove or disprove if you are saved because it's solely a heart question.
@TWIT1611: Thomas Ross is not a Calvinist. He has an article on his website that refutes Calvinism, and it's titled "Were the Reformers heretics?" I believe people like you - who swing to one side of the pendulum in this discussion - are in error. People have been arguing about repentance for centuries. Where does repentance come in? I watched parts of this debate, both men made good points. Both are saved men. And both probably made truthful and wrong comments. My thoughts: The Holy Spirit, through the word of God, is the agent in repentance. It's a deep, deep topic, that no man can pin down 100 percent. That is why you LEAN ON SCRIPTURE and don't draw crazy theories, and declare a guy such as Thomas Ross as teaching works salvation. That's absurd. Bottom line: A child of God will get chastised. Too many in the Ruckman and Hyles crowd think a quick prayer is salvation. It's not. Let me ask you with this scenario - which is a real scenario: If a kid grows up in church, prays a quick prayer, and then disappears at age 18, and then marries an Islam girl at age 22 and converts to Islam, is the kid saved? Absolutely not, is my answer. I have heard Ruckman guys say the kid is saved. That's FOOLISHNESS! So their thoughts are: "Hey, this kid who is attending an Isalmic mosque today is deep down a born-again Christian." Get out of here with that nonsense. In most cases where it's not obvious: You don't know who is saved, and, I don't know who is saved. So you better make sure they UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES while witnessing to them. Don't you ever declare someone as born-again. You don't know if they are listening to just be polite, and if they truly received it for a conversion.
@@19bmase Let me first say that perhaps I was a bit too strong in my language regarding Mr. Ross and will modify my comments above. I don't know his heart and his salvation is between him and God. Nevertheless, looking at your works to know if you are saved takes the gospel from the objective to the subjective since there is no way to truly measure repentance. My view which I believe is what the scriptures teach is that once I believe in Christ for eternal life, I have repented. They go hand in hand in that I move away from my dead works to solely trusting in Christ. Using your example in reverse if someone outwardly showed all the signs that they were born again but in their heart they do not truly believe, would they still be able enter the kingdom?.. of course not. Look at Judas as an example when Jesus said one of you would betray me, no one knew it would be him. Why? Because outwardly he performed as the other disciples. Does God chasten and scourge his sons as it says in Hebrews? Do some Christians live carnally? Read 1 Corinth 3. You are deceiving yourself if you think you are not sinning every single day and yes practicing sin, whatever practicing means. What's going on now within our community is exactly what Paul told us in Romans 7 that some are trying to bring true believers into the captivity to the law of sin. The one thing I've learned in the 11 years I've been saved is that any positive change that has occurred in me is a direct result of God changing me from the inside out. I don't know exactly how he does it but it has been an amazing ride so far but it doesn't mean that my flesh is not sin daily. To quote Romans 7:25, I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Lastly, I believe this teaching is one of the the most dangerous doctrines being taught in the church today and I still think it's a backdoor works salvation. I also don't read Greek or Hebrew and while I think church confessionals and history has its place, it will not replace my good ole King James Bible that is pure and perfect and in the language that I can fully understand. God bless. Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Listening to Ross I kept thinking, bet this guy went to Bible college. Of course he did/does: M.A. Fairhaven Baptist College (2001), M. Div. Great Plains Baptist Divinity School (2007), Th. M. Anchor Baptist Theological Seminary (2009), Ph. D. Great Plains Baptist Divinity School (est. 2024.
Some people want to rewrite Scripture: Matthew 11:28-29 KJV Come unto me, all ye that -labour and are heavy laden,- have labored and stopped sinning and I will give you -rest- the burden to be sinless to the end. [29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find -rest- work unto your souls.
I don't always agree with ptr tommy but I'm happy to see him debating in a professional manner. That there are still ifbs that can debate but not in an aggressive way just like Dr. Haiffley when he debated Mark Ward. That there are still ifbs that are well versed in doctrine and who knows their doctrine.
I can't stand when I hear preachers, or anyone else try to say that we're slaves to God i am a servant of God, not a slave. Quit reading from your NIV or esv. And claiming that you're KJV
Bro. McMurtry, I would side with you more so on the issue of repentance as it pertains to salvation. I would only offer that there is indeed a sin, one in particular, people are turning from, and that is idolatry. Jesus paid for all of humanity's sins. The sin that the Holy Spirit now reproves the world of is not believing on Jesus (John 16). Salvation is deliverance. Deliverance from what? The common evangelical answer is hell. While there is truth to this, this is not the Bible's primary emphasis when speaking of deliverance/salvation. Through the Catholic church and the reformation, particularly through Luther many centuries after Jesus, salvation was emphasized in the context of metaphysical torment: either in purgatory for Catholics, or hell for Luther. Luther's emphasis is very much a part of modern evangelism. I would contend that Luther was more correct than Catholicism, but that he still missed the biblical emphasis of salvation, which is deliverance from slavery/bondage. Particularly, slavery to Satan, sin, and death, of which hell is a component. This goes all the way back to the fall, in which mankind was sold/imprisoned under sin, becoming a slave to Satan's counterfeit kingdom, and alienated from life in God (i.e. death). No one can free themselves from slavery, but Jesus can. It's why eschatological salvation is viewed as the greater exodus (Jer. 23). Mankind, embracing his own knowledge and wisdom in rejection of God's knowledge and wisdom, is the first instance of idolatry. Salvation, or the deliverance from the bondage of Satan, sin, and death, is all about our believing allegiance to the one true God and how He does what is impossible for mankind to do on his own. Is our believing allegiance to ourselves, to our family, to our job, to our wealth or some other god? Or will we turn from the false gods we've created and given our loyalty to, and give our believing allegiance to the one true God and King of the universe? This is the example of David, a man after God's own heart. David sinned some pretty serious and horrendous sins, but his believing allegiance was always to God. Whether it's the rich young ruler, Simon the magician, or the people at Athens, salvation is about the deliverance from the bondage of Satan, sin, and death because one has turned from their false gods (idolatry) to the one true God, giving to Him their believing loyalty. Often that looks like denying or dying to oneself, rejecting our own ideas of knowledge and wisdom, turning and trusting in God and His knowledge and wisdom, finding life. The bottom line is who is the one true God, does He have our believing allegiance as King of the universe, or our we enslaved to another god of our own making who in actuality holds our believing loyalty?
1:20 …. Yet they had to keep these things: "But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood." - Acts 15:20
It is painful listening to Mr Ross, especially speaking so rapidly, can't follow what he is saying. Makes it difficult to check what he's actually saying.
Can slow down/speed up videos. Having subtitles on is helpful as well. Maybe have to inch your way through what hes saying, jotting down notes as ya go.
You are right. Because those BORN OF GOD do not sin. Whoever sins is of the devil. 😆 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." - 1 John 3:9
Oh, I am sure not sinning is something not practical for you. When a man is BORN AGAIN, he is a new creature. If a man does not ABIDE IN CHRIST, he is burned.
Bro. Tommy, your explanation of regeneration makes so much more common sense than the reformed view. Thank you for that.
If Mr Ross is correct, where does that leave an old testament King who was an adulterer and a murderer who shed much blood, who was also a man after God's own heart? Up a creek it would seem!
Pastor McMurtry is super clear on the gospel.
@@Bigiron1611 He is, it's excellent.
One of the few debates where both participants showed respect and courtesy throughout the debate. Bravo.
Like the calvinist and reformed crowd Mr Ross in my opinion is bringing in a form of a back door works salvation. They say it’s a free gift but then state if one “practices” sin then you are not truly saved. This doctrine removes the simplicity that is to be in Christ which Paul warned us about in 2 Corint. Every Christian practices sin by word, thought or deed on a daily basis. A foolish thought is sin and how many foolish thoughts do we have in a day?
This is teaching a dangerous version of the gospel in my opinion and will lead people to question their salvation since when they sin in their lives, they will have doubts. This doctrine changes the focus from the blood of Christ to you. I pray that God shows Mr. Ross this error and the warning in Matthew 7 resulting in Christ saying he never knew you could be those looking at their works to validate their salvation. Is believing on the gospel enough to get you saved for a Christian living carnally, absolutely but it doesn't mean that God won't chasten his son and you also risk losing out on the spiritual gifts in heaven and the blessings in this life. There are consequences to living carnally but it does not prove or disprove if you are saved because it's solely a heart question.
@TWIT1611: Thomas Ross is not a Calvinist.
He has an article on his website that refutes Calvinism, and it's titled "Were the Reformers heretics?"
I believe people like you - who swing to one side of the pendulum in this discussion - are in error. People have been arguing about repentance for centuries. Where does repentance come in? I watched parts of this debate, both men made good points. Both are saved men. And both probably made truthful and wrong comments.
My thoughts: The Holy Spirit, through the word of God, is the agent in repentance. It's a deep, deep topic, that no man can pin down 100 percent. That is why you LEAN ON SCRIPTURE and don't draw crazy theories, and declare a guy such as Thomas Ross as teaching works salvation. That's absurd.
Bottom line:
A child of God will get chastised.
Too many in the Ruckman and Hyles crowd think a quick prayer is salvation. It's not.
Let me ask you with this scenario - which is a real scenario: If a kid grows up in church, prays a quick prayer, and then disappears at age 18, and then marries an Islam girl at age 22 and converts to Islam, is the kid saved?
Absolutely not, is my answer.
I have heard Ruckman guys say the kid is saved. That's FOOLISHNESS! So their thoughts are: "Hey, this kid who is attending an Isalmic mosque today is deep down a born-again Christian." Get out of here with that nonsense.
In most cases where it's not obvious: You don't know who is saved, and, I don't know who is saved. So you better make sure they UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES while witnessing to them. Don't you ever declare someone as born-again. You don't know if they are listening to just be polite, and if they truly received it for a conversion.
@@19bmase Let me first say that perhaps I was a bit too strong in my language regarding Mr. Ross and will modify my comments above. I don't know his heart and his salvation is between him and God. Nevertheless, looking at your works to know if you are saved takes the gospel from the objective to the subjective since there is no way to truly measure repentance. My view which I believe is what the scriptures teach is that once I believe in Christ for eternal life, I have repented. They go hand in hand in that I move away from my dead works to solely trusting in Christ. Using your example in reverse if someone outwardly showed all the signs that they were born again but in their heart they do not truly believe, would they still be able enter the kingdom?.. of course not. Look at Judas as an example when Jesus said one of you would betray me, no one knew it would be him. Why? Because outwardly he performed as the other disciples.
Does God chasten and scourge his sons as it says in Hebrews? Do some Christians live carnally? Read 1 Corinth 3. You are deceiving yourself if you think you are not sinning every single day and yes practicing sin, whatever practicing means. What's going on now within our community is exactly what Paul told us in Romans 7 that some are trying to bring true believers into the captivity to the law of sin. The one thing I've learned in the 11 years I've been saved is that any positive change that has occurred in me is a direct result of God changing me from the inside out. I don't know exactly how he does it but it has been an amazing ride so far but it doesn't mean that my flesh is not sin daily. To quote Romans 7:25, I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Lastly, I believe this teaching is one of the the most dangerous doctrines being taught in the church today and I still think it's a backdoor works salvation. I also don't read Greek or Hebrew and while I think church confessionals and history has its place, it will not replace my good ole King James Bible that is pure and perfect and in the language that I can fully understand. God bless.
Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Salvation is free to who ever believes. Mr Ross believes in Lordship salvation.
Listening to Ross I kept thinking, bet this guy went to Bible college. Of course he did/does: M.A. Fairhaven Baptist College (2001), M. Div. Great Plains Baptist Divinity School (2007), Th. M. Anchor Baptist Theological Seminary (2009), Ph. D. Great Plains Baptist Divinity School (est. 2024.
A new man is created but the old man or flesh doesn't disappear
Humans sure can complicate the heck out of things that are fairly simple.
This is good! 😂👍
Have a safe journey to Florida. It's gotta be warmer than here. We started the day at-6°f. I wish I could go to Florida with you.
1:49 - THUNDER AND LIGHTNING! 🔥⚡️⚡️
So were the disciples not truly saved believers when they fled and hid instead of carrying a cross with Jesus and dying with Him?
Some people want to rewrite Scripture:
Matthew 11:28-29 KJV
Come unto me, all ye that -labour and are heavy laden,- have labored and stopped sinning and I will give you -rest- the burden to be sinless to the end.
[29] Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find -rest- work unto your souls.
I don't always agree with ptr tommy but I'm happy to see him debating in a professional manner. That there are still ifbs that can debate but not in an aggressive way just like Dr. Haiffley when he debated Mark Ward. That there are still ifbs that are well versed in doctrine and who knows their doctrine.
Mr Ross if disciple can't become a non disciple then explain John Mark, who left then came back later.
I can't stand when I hear preachers, or anyone else try to say that we're slaves to God i am a servant of God, not a slave. Quit reading from your NIV or esv. And claiming that you're KJV
Bro. McMurtry, I would side with you more so on the issue of repentance as it pertains to salvation. I would only offer that there is indeed a sin, one in particular, people are turning from, and that is idolatry. Jesus paid for all of humanity's sins. The sin that the Holy Spirit now reproves the world of is not believing on Jesus (John 16).
Salvation is deliverance. Deliverance from what? The common evangelical answer is hell. While there is truth to this, this is not the Bible's primary emphasis when speaking of deliverance/salvation. Through the Catholic church and the reformation, particularly through Luther many centuries after Jesus, salvation was emphasized in the context of metaphysical torment: either in purgatory for Catholics, or hell for Luther. Luther's emphasis is very much a part of modern evangelism. I would contend that Luther was more correct than Catholicism, but that he still missed the biblical emphasis of salvation, which is deliverance from slavery/bondage. Particularly, slavery to Satan, sin, and death, of which hell is a component. This goes all the way back to the fall, in which mankind was sold/imprisoned under sin, becoming a slave to Satan's counterfeit kingdom, and alienated from life in God (i.e. death). No one can free themselves from slavery, but Jesus can. It's why eschatological salvation is viewed as the greater exodus (Jer. 23).
Mankind, embracing his own knowledge and wisdom in rejection of God's knowledge and wisdom, is the first instance of idolatry. Salvation, or the deliverance from the bondage of Satan, sin, and death, is all about our believing allegiance to the one true God and how He does what is impossible for mankind to do on his own. Is our believing allegiance to ourselves, to our family, to our job, to our wealth or some other god? Or will we turn from the false gods we've created and given our loyalty to, and give our believing allegiance to the one true God and King of the universe? This is the example of David, a man after God's own heart. David sinned some pretty serious and horrendous sins, but his believing allegiance was always to God. Whether it's the rich young ruler, Simon the magician, or the people at Athens, salvation is about the deliverance from the bondage of Satan, sin, and death because one has turned from their false gods (idolatry) to the one true God, giving to Him their believing loyalty. Often that looks like denying or dying to oneself, rejecting our own ideas of knowledge and wisdom, turning and trusting in God and His knowledge and wisdom, finding life. The bottom line is who is the one true God, does He have our believing allegiance as King of the universe, or our we enslaved to another god of our own making who in actuality holds our believing loyalty?
I don’t think the sinner’s prayer is necessary, but I agree with McMurtry more on repentance.
Do they ever get pastor Tommy's last name correct?
No. 😂
Too lazy to read
1:20 …. Yet they had to keep these things:
"But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood." - Acts 15:20
How would you describe to a lost person to have saving faith?
Guy at the beginning can’t even pronounce Pastor McMurtry’s name correctly
It is painful listening to Mr Ross, especially speaking so rapidly, can't follow what he is saying. Makes it difficult to check what he's actually saying.
Can slow down/speed up videos. Having subtitles on is helpful as well. Maybe have to inch your way through what hes saying, jotting down notes as ya go.
Ezra 10 repenting of sin is works
These repent of sins for salvation preachers are not brothers.
You are right. Because those BORN OF GOD do not sin. Whoever sins is of the devil. 😆
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." - 1 John 3:9
@MandaKoehn First John is positional, not practical. In Christ, a believer can not sin. In practice, a believer sins every day.
@@buckeyebaptist1976wow that's a good way to phrase it. Positional vs practical. Imma use that.
@@MandaKoehnthe inward new man who has been born again/quickened does not and will not sin. Only the flesh will sin.
Oh, I am sure not sinning is something not practical for you. When a man is BORN AGAIN, he is a new creature. If a man does not ABIDE IN CHRIST, he is burned.
Yea, this Thomas is worse than the doubting one for sure.
#HellBound