To help prevent any cracks, Polish the forming radius of the forming block. Oil you block before putting you blank piece. You want a lubricant between your blank and your block. Use clevis pins for your locating pins: they are cheap, have a loose fit and a low head. Also always consider the grain direction of the aluminium. The best is to have the grain direction perpendicular to the forming radius (less cracking and stronger finished part) ...I've designed more than a 1000 of these forming tools over the last 20 years.
If you sprinkle talcum powder on both pieces of rubber it will flow much easier and last longer.We use rubber quite often in our shop for forming but mostly as a bottom die in a 150 ton press brake.
This is Rubber Pressing by the Guerin method. Lurathane is a Polyurethane elastomer suitable for this process. Two one inch sheets can successfully be substituted for the two inch block. More complicated and larger pieces can be formed with the use of pressure intensifiers that assist the rubber to flow around the solid die. A second die with a bevel and a cutout in the shape of the first die with significant clearance ( an inch or more) around the first die.
Sorry Chuck I don't have a video just a couple of years experience pre 2000. We used to place the blank on top of the rubber and then drive the die down into it . Located the die on the blank with a couple of universal head rivets. Secured the rivets to the blank with sticky tape .
Thank you so much for this precious information, currently we want to build a bike frame with hidroforming this video is gold for us, thank you again!!!
If you're making smaller pieces you could use a hockey puck for the rubber blank. They're plentiful. Or the blocks they use for automotive lifts. They're relatively affordable, easy to find and come in many shapes and sizes
Can use a harbor freight log splitter as a press also. We use them for forge presses in blacksmithing. Cheap as hell and it can be used as a log splitter or a press just by fabricating some kind of quick(ish) die changing system.
I love tidbits like this. I wonder what kind of part you could get using bondo as the fluid under pressure. Keep it under pressure til the bondo cures. I can't think of any particular use atm.
Instead of dealing with an inner tube as a sacrificial medium...try using pieces of roll rubber roofing material. It's much tougher than inner tube. There are a couple of different thicknesses available but it's cheap and easy to cut and easy to work with.
I've made dies from fiberglass with as much as 1.5" draw in mild steel. I use a 200 ton hydraulic press for pieces as big as 300 square inches. Instead of rubber, I make male and female dies.
Excellent teaching ! 6061 T6 .010 thick material could be formed I believe . Hardcoat Anodizing could allow stiffness, and wear resistant surfaces, and color dying. I have c n c machined solid material, and your teaching teaches this. Thank you Thank you
You should blend your rubber into chunks, making bags of different densities, mixed with different dyes. Red for high, blue for low, etc. Then "pour" this rubber into box to give a differential gradient by mixing them. If the rubber is not only of varying colour but also varying size, you could quickly filter them back out into bags afterwards, and refresh the bags from time to time.
The biggest problem with this approach is getting the small chunks in between the metal to be formed and the mold. If we use sacrificial rubber that is all tore up we have the same problem. If used with a single sheet of rubber and then the chunks, the process would probably work well. Good thinking.
I went out and bought myself two 100 tonne hydraulic cylinders and a pump to drive them at 700 bar. yep I am going to make a press and then do this. awesome. oh and one last thing. the most important think. thank you
hello, I found the rubber suitable for making the forming block for my project.... I see you have made plans for making the plunger as well to fit inside the box. I assume constructing the plunger is cheaper than sourcing a very thick steel plate?
I think that your locating pins should be as rounded and low as possible. The hex corners prevent smooth flow of the rubber towards acted on material. Also, the sharp corners of the hex are what tears the inner tube sacrificial material.
When I was making countertops I would give the good customers a cutting board to match their countertops made out of that sink cutout run a router around it twice and poof happy people that get you more work.
Consider RF welding TPU to make your bladders. It costs pennies a bladder and stays glued inside the part. your latex bladder only last so long and then they break off inside the part as they age. The TPU stays bound to the epoxy forever.
If you had it as a water *tank* what would prevent the water from getting under the workpiece? Then, as you pressurize the water, wouldn't it just increase in pressure everywhere, both above and below the workpiece, thus doing nothing? This technique relies on increasing the pressure above the piece, while maintaining a low pressure below - that's what pushes parts of the workpiece downward. The idea of a water bag is interesting, but you've already got what - 300-400 psi of pressure being generated? Now take that bag and bend it over a slightly sharp edge (say the points on one of those hex-head bolts.) You'd need some pretty strong bag material for it not to puncture. Use some rubber sheets between the bag and the workpiece you say? Then you've pretty much come full circle right back to where you've started, haven't you?
wonder if the solid rubber floor mats might be a good cheap source or rubber? about 1/2" thinkness glued together. I may have to do this. Thanks for the video.
Have you ever experimented on using tiny rubber beads suspended in slippery fluid instead? Your press could have weep holes where you can recycle the fluid on the next press.
Really cool, one question, why is the box so big, if pressure is a "precious" commodity? Would you have more available pressure with say, a 6 x6 inch box?
The answer is, of course, is yes. The trick is to balance all of the aspects of the box to make it the most usable possible. The primary criteria is the size of part and the thickness of material that you're trying to form. If all you had to make was one specific part, you would probably size the box specifically for that purpose. The other criteria is you may have a press with much more capability than the simple 20 tons available from the cheapo harbor freight press. In our shop we actually have a 200 ton press and a box that is 16" x 24". We
Thank you I do not build airplanes, mostly just from lack of funds and a place to build it. However, I do small metal working projects, and this may work for them, tho the box itself will be much smaller.
Wonder how a non newtonian fluid would work? How about plasticine? Silly putty (also non newtonian)? I think the harder rubber works because pressure is not lost from getting squeezed out the edges from sloppy fitting pressure plate. The inner tube rubber is much softer.
Like the old joke, "To become a millionaire, first, get a million dollars." In this case, "To use this simple method of forming parts, first, get a die made."
Just have a company make it it won’t be that much then you can make 1,000 of them that die will last forever. If you don’t need large quantities then you shouldn’t even be looking at this method
Hi. I just thought I should let you know, Lemon pledge is full of silicone. There is such a thing as silicone spray if you want something pure but silicone is horrible stuff to get off of surfaces before you primer or paint. It's totally verboten in paint shops. Also, it contaminates your entire shop in which you will be painting resulting in random fish eye. Would not be my go-to. Why not slightly watered down dish soap? Washes off easily and is probably even cheaper.
Thanks for your comments. I think everything you say has validity. We have not tried the dish soap, but I'm sure that it would work well. We been using the lemon pledge for quite some time and haven't really noticed it being a big deal. If you'll notice the thumbnail for the video shows the part anodized. No special treatment was necessary. Simply wash the part with soap and water and proceed with the anodizing process. Normally a contaminated part is not tolerant of any silicone, oil, etc. maybe we are just using cheap lemon pledge. Many of the parts that we use this process on get painted as well. Haven't noticed any problems with fisheye. All that being said. I still agree with you. When we get a chance, we will try the dish soap idea.
You are welcome. Great videos, by the way. Very thorough. I'm looking forward to using these techniques to build the ribs and formers for my experimental Stinson 108 wing extensions. Silicone probably does not affect anodizing because I imagine the acid bath removes it, but paint may be a different issue. Thorough cleaning is essential and I'm sure most folks follow cleaning procedures carefully and therefore should not have big problems. That said, it's probably good to know about. It would be interesting to see the difference in primer and paint adhesion with silicone and without. That may tell a different story. Most of my experience with it comes from my woodworking profession where it's avoided like the plague because the silicone becomes trapped in the porous wood. You can imagine because of that it's a lot worse on wood. It makes refinishing very difficult. Cheers!
Have you ever tried hydro forming small stringers from 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/16T 2024T3? If so, can you give some recommendations? Examples of the blocks used?
How about forming Vehicle Replacement Floor Pans, from Sheet Steel? What kind of Press (Pressure) would that require? How about Making the Dies in a "Progressive Step Sequence", where each Die moves the metal towards the Final shape a % of the movement at a time? Say, Die #1 moves the metal 25% of the target shape; then Die #2, another 25%; Die #3 - another 25%; & Due #4, the Last 25%? This way, you could also have the Benefit of more steps with Lubricants allowing the Metal you are forming, to "Slide" as it moves, instead of "Gripping" to the Die, or the Rubber!
This was the EMG-5, the predecessor to the EMG-6 electric motor glider. The project was discontinued after the FAA's interpretation of part 103 mandating that batteries be considered part of the empty weight rather than as fuel. More information about the FAA interpretation on our website www.electricmotorglider.com
If I remember right we ended up purchasing surplus rubber that is 1 inch thick and gluing two pieces together. It was so long ago I don't actually remember where we ended up purchasing it from.
To help prevent any cracks, Polish the forming radius of the forming block. Oil you block before putting you blank piece. You want a lubricant between your blank and your block. Use clevis pins for your locating pins: they are cheap, have a loose fit and a low head. Also always consider the grain direction of the aluminium. The best is to have the grain direction perpendicular to the forming radius (less cracking and stronger finished part) ...I've designed more than a 1000 of these forming tools over the last 20 years.
@MichaelKingsfordGray
Oil?
Wow, this is one of the most informative videos I've seen in a while.
Excellent! No fluff nor filler. Eye opener, thought provoking, I want one.
If you sprinkle talcum powder on both pieces of rubber it will flow much easier and last longer.We use rubber quite often in our shop for forming but mostly as a bottom die in a 150 ton press brake.
This is Rubber Pressing by the Guerin method. Lurathane is a Polyurethane elastomer suitable for this process. Two one inch sheets can successfully be substituted for the two inch block. More complicated and larger pieces can be formed with the use of pressure intensifiers that assist the rubber to flow around the solid die. A second die with a bevel and a cutout in the shape of the first die with significant clearance ( an inch or more) around the first die.
I'd be interested in seeing how that might work. Is there a link to a video anywhere ? VERY interesting idea - THANKS !
Sorry Chuck I don't have a video just a couple of years experience pre 2000. We used to place the blank on top of the rubber and then drive the die down into it . Located the die on the blank with a couple of universal head rivets. Secured the rivets to the blank with sticky tape .
Remarkable manufacturing technique. I've done a lot of machining/milling and composite work, but never this. Very cool.
Wow...I have nothing I need to make but I want to go out and round up all the stuff for this rig. Amazingly cool. Subbed!
Thank you for the info and your professional advice.
The high school shop teacher I never had. Thanks brother!
Not interested in forming. Well, not much.
But I love videos like these packed. Useful information for us non-professional makers.
Well done.
Thank you so much for this precious information, currently we want to build a bike frame with hidroforming this video is gold for us, thank you again!!!
I'm impressed, and believe this will be useful in many a home shop.
I see what you did there...………. impressed !!
If you're making smaller pieces you could use a hockey puck for the rubber blank. They're plentiful.
Or the blocks they use for automotive lifts. They're relatively affordable, easy to find and come in many shapes and sizes
Really great instructional video, clear instruction, well illustrated, good unity. Thank you bigly for creating same. :-)
This is a fantastic video! No idea that something like this was possible.
Can use a harbor freight log splitter as a press also. We use them for forge presses in blacksmithing. Cheap as hell and it can be used as a log splitter or a press just by fabricating some kind of quick(ish) die changing system.
Loved the fighter planes on the wall!!
I have made dies for rubber forming with glass reinforced bondo, works well for a limited number of parts.
I love tidbits like this. I wonder what kind of part you could get using bondo as the fluid under pressure. Keep it under pressure til the bondo cures. I can't think of any particular use atm.
Well well well. And just when you think youve seen everything, this comes along.
That was a great video and very informative, thank you for your efforts!
Instead of dealing with an inner tube as a sacrificial medium...try using pieces of roll rubber roofing material. It's much tougher than inner tube. There are a couple of different thicknesses available but it's cheap and easy to cut and easy to work with.
I've made dies from fiberglass with as much as 1.5" draw in mild steel. I use a 200 ton hydraulic press for pieces as big as 300 square inches. Instead of rubber, I make male and female dies.
Excellent teaching !
6061 T6 .010 thick material could be formed I believe .
Hardcoat Anodizing could allow stiffness, and wear resistant surfaces, and color dying.
I have c n c machined solid material, and your teaching teaches this.
Thank you
Thank you
You can also try baby powder as the lubricant instead of lemon pledge. Put some between the tooling and the metal, too.
Super informative. Thank you.
very intresting and nice info but wich part of this is exactly hidroforming?
Great video, fantastic information. Thanks
You should blend your rubber into chunks, making bags of different densities, mixed with different dyes. Red for high, blue for low, etc. Then "pour" this rubber into box to give a differential gradient by mixing them. If the rubber is not only of varying colour but also varying size, you could quickly filter them back out into bags afterwards, and refresh the bags from time to time.
The biggest problem with this approach is getting the small chunks in between the metal to be formed and the mold. If we use sacrificial rubber that is all tore up we have the same problem. If used with a single sheet of rubber and then the chunks, the process would probably work well. Good thinking.
Learnt a few good things here for the NON_Aviation engineering sector -got that itch to go and try now - Corian? new name for me too Thanks for all!
What was the aircraft you were working on? The low wing single seat pusher.
Rainbow.... You are my sun shine ☀️
I have a question. Would a round box handle the pressure better than a square one?
I went out and bought myself two 100 tonne hydraulic cylinders and a pump to drive them at 700 bar. yep I am going to make a press and then do this. awesome. oh and one last thing. the most important think. thank you
Have you tried using a pressure washer to develop the pressure needed?
hello, I found the rubber suitable for making the forming block for my project.... I see you have made plans for making the plunger as well to fit inside the box. I assume constructing the plunger is cheaper than sourcing a very thick steel plate?
It's called rubber block forming ! Nice video by the way
Awesome video! These techniques can be useful to me! Im not building a plane but for simple parts for my jon boat!
Awesome video 👍🏻
Simply Spectacular
2020 ... Thank you ... and Subscribed
This is really elastomeric forming.
Rubber Pad Forming or Guerin Stamping.
Yes, with the elastomer acting as one of two FLUIDS in the process.
I worked in the lighting industry. A lot of the shapes were parabolic. We used 1100-0
Thank you, great idea
The captions are a hoot - did you not think of checking them before publishing this?
Impressive and great description !
I think that your locating pins should be as rounded and low as possible. The hex corners prevent smooth flow of the rubber towards acted on material. Also, the sharp corners of the hex are what tears the inner tube sacrificial material.
E Flanagan use clevis pins
Button head bolts would work better.
I readily concur, our normal locating pin is a used clevis bolt with a
Flat head capscrews, then you can get a formed countersink too.
Little late to comment here, but... Ever see how Colin Furze did hydroforming with a pressure washer?
What is the airplane at 7:12 ?
Consuela; "We need more Lemon Pledge". "We don't supply that. You should just bring it from home".
"Noooo"
Beat me to it. LOL
@@Kori114 yep me too. "You people need to bring your own lemon pledge..." "nooooo"
I learned something. Thanks. But I wonder what kind of press you used for the larger wing parts?
I have a Big monster press. 400 tons.
There's a documentary about the largest press. Germany had the largest untill America created the largest. Worth a watch. Very interesting
might want to look into a more tonnage on the hydraulic jack...20 tons does not seem to be enough, to get fine detail.
It seems that you are pressing on the end of a cylinder therefore damaging the plugger.
hello friend , have you considered using a smaller die pad for smaller objects to increase the force ?
Considering the rubber is only in contact with the small die it is still transferring max force to the part.
Gracias por toda tu información
what are the advantages of this type of forming vs a two piece die?
When I was making countertops I would give the good customers a cutting board to match their countertops made out of that sink cutout run a router around it twice and poof happy people that get you more work.
exactly what i needed & more
thank you so much 🙏🏻
Consider RF welding TPU to make your bladders. It costs pennies a bladder and stays glued inside the part. your latex bladder only last so long and then they break off inside the part as they age. The TPU stays bound to the epoxy forever.
Bladders?
Can a rubber water tank or bag do better than the rubber block? Between the them the rubber sheet is still essential?
Probly need to seal more tightly around the edges where the top-plate meets the box walls, but that should work .
If you had it as a water *tank* what would prevent the water from getting under the workpiece? Then, as you pressurize the water, wouldn't it just increase in pressure everywhere, both above and below the workpiece, thus doing nothing? This technique relies on increasing the pressure above the piece, while maintaining a low pressure below - that's what pushes parts of the workpiece downward.
The idea of a water bag is interesting, but you've already got what - 300-400 psi of pressure being generated? Now take that bag and bend it over a slightly sharp edge (say the points on one of those hex-head bolts.) You'd need some pretty strong bag material for it not to puncture. Use some rubber sheets between the bag and the workpiece you say? Then you've pretty much come full circle right back to where you've started, haven't you?
use lubricant under the sheet metal too
wonder if the solid rubber floor mats might be a good cheap source or rubber? about 1/2" thinkness glued together. I may have to do this. Thanks for the video.
I'm sure that the floor mats would work. Good idea. the point here is. "low Cost".
TPU rubber floor mat. It’s basically hard but foamed.
Have you ever experimented on using tiny rubber beads suspended in slippery fluid instead? Your press could have weep holes where you can recycle the fluid on the next press.
print the die? or a resin print die?
Really cool, one question, why is the box so big, if pressure is a "precious" commodity? Would you have more available pressure with say, a 6 x6 inch box?
The answer is, of course, is yes. The trick is to balance all of the aspects of the box to make it the most usable possible. The primary criteria is the size of part and the thickness of material that you're trying to form. If all you had to make was one specific part, you would probably size the box specifically for that purpose. The other criteria is you may have a press with much more capability than the simple 20 tons available from the cheapo harbor freight press. In our shop we actually have a 200 ton press and a box that is 16" x 24". We
I use Hockey puck as rubber. perfect for small parts.
I use a hard durometer rubber for increasing definition in localized areas. The puck would work great for that.
I use a gym weight lifters matt... cheap, bouncy ( about a 50 shore or so ) and cheap from American floor mats. FYI
I wonder if ballistic gelatin would work?
What is the airframe at 3:18?
Is it reasonable to use pressed fiber glass epoxed with steel wool composite with such hydraulic hoist?
Thank you I do not build airplanes, mostly just from lack of funds and a place to build it. However, I do small metal working projects, and this may work for them, tho the box itself will be much smaller.
Wonder how a non newtonian fluid would work? How about plasticine? Silly putty (also non newtonian)? I think the harder rubber works because pressure is not lost from getting squeezed out the edges from sloppy fitting pressure plate. The inner tube rubber is much softer.
Good call . Why not ?
Like the old joke, "To become a millionaire, first, get a million dollars." In this case, "To use this simple method of forming parts, first, get a die made."
@MichaelKingsfordGray but don't you need a backyard shed to do that?
Just have a company make it it won’t be that much then you can make 1,000 of them that die will last forever. If you don’t need large quantities then you shouldn’t even be looking at this method
@@MrKkdkk Just press your backyard shed out of aluminium with this device!
"First, you Die, Then you Fly!"
😁😃
Hi. I just thought I should let you know, Lemon pledge is full of silicone. There is such a thing as silicone spray if you want something pure but silicone is horrible stuff to get off of surfaces before you primer or paint. It's totally verboten in paint shops. Also, it contaminates your entire shop in which you will be painting resulting in random fish eye. Would not be my go-to. Why not slightly watered down dish soap? Washes off easily and is probably even cheaper.
Thanks for your comments. I think everything you say has validity. We have not tried the dish soap, but I'm sure that it would work well. We been using the lemon pledge for quite some time and haven't really noticed it being a big deal. If you'll notice the thumbnail for the video shows the part anodized. No special treatment was necessary. Simply wash the part with soap and water and proceed with the anodizing process. Normally a contaminated part is not tolerant of any silicone, oil, etc. maybe we are just using cheap lemon pledge. Many of the parts that we use this process on get painted as well. Haven't noticed any problems with fisheye. All that being said. I still agree with you. When we get a chance, we will try the dish soap idea.
You are welcome. Great videos, by the way. Very thorough. I'm looking forward to using these techniques to build the ribs and formers for my experimental Stinson 108 wing extensions.
Silicone probably does not affect anodizing because I imagine the acid bath removes it, but paint may be a different issue. Thorough cleaning is essential and I'm sure most folks follow cleaning procedures carefully and therefore should not have big problems. That said, it's probably good to know about. It would be interesting to see the difference in primer and paint adhesion with silicone and without. That may tell a different story.
Most of my experience with it comes from my woodworking profession where it's avoided like the plague because the silicone becomes trapped in the porous wood. You can imagine because of that it's a lot worse on wood. It makes refinishing very difficult. Cheers!
Shouldn´t the positioning pins be bolts with flat, circular heads without any corners and edges instead of hexagonal heads???
From another post "Use clevis pins for your locating pins"
The rubber doesnt even have to be that thick either to get this effect. I can do this stuff with 1/8" thick Neoprene.
Thank you!!! The best vídeo explication
This video was very informative and a good alternative to the pressure washer technique. I'd love to try it but I only have pine pledge. Sigh.
where do you get the rubber or polyurethane sheet? any part numbers?
Mcmaster Carr.com
Looks like the stuff at Feed stores for animal stalls, maybe it would work and maybe not, but it would be easy to get a piece and experiment
Great! Now I know what to do with my empty beer cans.
cool video....
I only have Forest Fruit Pledge, will that be OK?
Have you ever tried hydro forming small stringers from 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/16T 2024T3? If so, can you give some recommendations? Examples of the blocks used?
I have not tried the use of the performer for stringers. It would seem that stringers would be easier to manufacture using a sheet-metal brake.
Which rubber do you use? We want to o the same in school.
American Floor mats.com Bounce back rubber tiles... cheap !
How about forming Vehicle Replacement Floor Pans, from Sheet Steel? What kind of Press (Pressure) would that require?
How about Making the Dies in a "Progressive Step Sequence", where each Die moves the metal towards the Final shape a % of the movement at a time? Say, Die #1 moves the metal 25% of the target shape; then Die #2, another 25%; Die #3 - another 25%; & Due #4, the Last 25%?
This way, you could also have the Benefit of more steps with Lubricants allowing the Metal you are forming, to "Slide" as it moves, instead of "Gripping" to the Die, or the Rubber!
Corian is extremely lung hazardous according to my friend with slicosis.
@MichaelKingsfordGray Well, sure.. If you know to use safety precautions. Personally, I wasn't aware of the dangers.
I guess 'rubberforming' might attract the wrong sort of connotations ?
great video
new subscriber
cheers
Every time Lemon Pledge was said I thought of Conswala from Family Guy.
Great intrest but I never heard of fluting pliers what do they look like
Google "fluting pliers"
Would any of these home shop methods work on regular sheet metal for old tractor parts?
Nice ! Is the name of the Aircraft @ 3:11 available, please...Thank You.
This was the EMG-5, the predecessor to the EMG-6 electric motor glider. The project was discontinued after the FAA's interpretation of part 103 mandating that batteries be considered part of the empty weight rather than as fuel. More information about the FAA interpretation on our website www.electricmotorglider.com
11x11 is 121 plus or minus 1 so youre still within print
Thumbs up, what else? I'm speechless...
Why not use very fine sand, baking soda or glass?
What aircraft is seen at 12:00 ?
Varga Kachina 2150A
Great job, thanks a lot
hydro??
You should try PAM spray. It is more slick.
How did you cut out your template that accurately with those lugs?
Why no answer?
can't you saturate your MDF in a high strength epoxy to make it more durable?
where can I buy the square rubber
If I remember right we ended up purchasing surplus rubber that is 1 inch thick and gluing two pieces together. It was so long ago I don't actually remember where we ended up purchasing it from.
AmericanFloormats.com Bounce back gym mat layered.