Boring Classical Music (According To Reddit)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
- 0:00 Introduction with Loki
0:27 Can classical music be boring?
0:57 Chopin wrote a fugue
2:10 Viola sonata by Mendelssohn
3:23 Beethoven’s influence on Mendelssohn
4:38 Satie’s Vexations
5:38 Ravel’s Bolero
8:02 Shostakovich’s Leningrad Symphony
11:15 Vaughan Williams ’The Lark Ascending’
12:15 Anything written by Haydn
12:58 Comparison with Stamitz
14:39 Haydn’s Trumpet concerto
15:06 Bartok’s Concerto for Orchestra
15:50 Mahler’s first symphony
17:10 Einaudi
17:14 Pachelbel’s Canon in D
17:23 Many composers…
18:33 Brahms 1st piano concerto
18:48 Liszt’s B minor Sonata
Can classical music be boring? In this video, Matthew King reacts to a Subreddit discussion in which certain classical composers and pieces are said to be boring.
⦿ SUPPORT US ON PATREON ⦿
/ musicprofessor
⦿ BUY US A Kofi ⦿
ko-fi.com/themusicprofessor
⦿ Support us on PayPal ⦿
paypal.me/themusicprofessor?c...
⦿ SUBSCRIBE TO THIS CHANNEL ⦿
bit.ly/3Pnnwon
The full performance of Satie’s Vexations by Matthew King can be heard here: • Satie's 'VEXATIONS' (c...
Krystian Zimerman plays Liszt’s Sonata in B minor: • Liszt: Sonata in B Min...
The full performance of Stamitz's symphony in D op. 5 no. 2 by the Capella Accademica can be seen here: • Johann Stamitz：Symphon...
Ravel’s Bolero with a recording by the LSO conducted by Gergiev can be heard here: • M. Ravel: Bolero Sheet...
I often think some of the flak that Classic FM gets is a bit harsh.... then they play Einaudi...
talk of boring music!
@@fungalbob Thanks - corrected.🙂
The mention of Liszt's Sonata at 18:48 is most likely a quip referencing the notorious anecdote of Brahms dozing off during a recital of said piece.
Yes - I seem to have been a bit slow there.
What is often missed out is that Brahms had been travelling for 24 hours or so to reach Liszt's and was dead tired!
Why would you spend time on Reddit for anything? Particularly when you could be listening music.
“Gotta listen to the trombonist now…” lmaoo 5:50
Wasn’t ready for that shade being thrown there. 😮
Never noticed the similarities between "Bolero" and "Memories", but now I can't unsee it! Thank you for this interesting post.
Unhear it.
@@yeohi That too.
@@waygoblue4729 Wait until you spot 'I don't know how to love him' from Jesus Christ Superstar in the middle of Mendelssohn's violin concerto
Boring is entirely subjective. There is so much classical music that of course some of it will be boring and uninteresting to many people.
Reddit is such a depressing, toxic place to spend more than 5 seconds.
Depends on the sub, really. And the same could be said for any of the high profile social media sites.
No - doesn’t depend on the sub. They are only circlejerking opinions - entire Reddit - and for some reason very insecure, which sprouts this certain type of unbearable toxicity.
I tried it a few times and decided it was worse than a waste of time.
@@cb4allstar2 The mythical "good subreddit" may well exist for all I know but I sure haven't seen it.
@@rockstar-technology Ex. malefashionadvice was** such a wonderful sub. Supportive of beginners while maintaining discussion for those interested in sartorial discussions for the sake of it. Supportive of nonbinay folks and non-masculine wear, active regulars who answered simple questions as well as facilitated bigger discussions. Mods that had basic rules against racism,sexism, etc, backed by a community that agreed with those rules.
There are others but if your main stay with reddit are front page subs, well it's hit or miss but I honestly don't think any better or worse than ig, twitter, ytb, etc.
As a harpist I've played a lot of Pachelbel. I have to say that I really do not tire of it. It is a beautifully designed, and aesthetically pleasing piece to play and to listen to. I think it is a mistake, a very great mistake, for musicians to make the assumption that a piece is boring because they've had to play it a lot. Just because you have mistakenly drained the life out of a piece by much repetition does not mean that the listening public has.
The public is still charmed by the Canon in D, and the familiarity of it gives them great pleasure.
That great pleasure is the purpose of wonderful pieces of music. Musicians, do not scorn the public's taste.
In that pathway lies unemployment.
Only problem might be that it has overshadowed the rest of Pachelbel's work, I once read an anecdote of a man who spoke to a priest, the priest said that Canon was the only piece he made.
I couldn't disagree more about Haydn...if you listen to him without all of the historical importance in mind, you will always be surprised by his music...listen to the Paris Symphonies without bias...fantastic!!!
9:44 Shostakovich based the tune on the aria "Da geh' ich zu Maxim" from Lehár's _The Merry Widow._ Despite Lehár's Jewish connections - he had many Jewish friends and his wife was born a Jew - he was known to be one of Hitler's favourite composers, and _Merry Widow_ one of his favourite operettas. On that basis, some have suggested that Shostakovich chose this tune as a deliberate dig at Hitler.
Haydn? Symphony 80 abounds with invention, its 2nd movement strikingly beautiful, its final movement modulations looking far into the future. Missa in Angustiis: the kyrie explodes into life (in interpretations courageous enough to realize the dynamics), the soprano writing radiating hysteria... Then there are the immensely inventive, often quirky piano sonatas.... Haydn's music always elicits interest, most of it engages the mind and the soul!
Haydn is absolutely wonderful. The symphonies all have their own unique character.
Yes, I agree...Haydn is always doing something surprising and brilliant...full of energy and taste...the Paris Symphonies are unbelievable in this way
All 106 of them
Haydn's 39th symphony possibly inspired Mozart's Little G Minor Symphony. It's worth a listen.
It's a better symphony than mozart's
The answers to this question are usually absolutely ridiculous.
YES Classical Music can indeed be boring - but the "mainstream repertoire" is by definition NOT boring - as it has gone through centuries of filtration.
As someone who goes searching for "Hidden Gems" - the majority of music I hear is relatively "boring" - all of the lesser-known composers are, for the most part, lesser-known for a reason. Having said that - there are real treasures to be discovered!
Composers like Raff, Kraus, Alkan, Medtner, Onslow... all great stuff!
In fact - I think Onslow is a good example of this "boring" phenomenon.
I think he is actually very good - but just a bit predictable and conservative. He was rather well known in his day but posterity has diminished his reputation over time.
The composers that "survive" the mainstream repertoire are always exciting, trailblazing, and unpredictable somehow.
Speaking of "hidden gems" have you listened to Hans Rott?
@@hojowarf6488 Yeah his E major Symphony is great! It's hard to tell how much of a genius he would have been if he had lived longer. He's one of the most promising composers who died in their 20s - along with Alexei Stanchinsky (influenced by Scriabin) and Karl Tausig (influenced by Liszt).
I will make a counterargument against your comment that "anything that's mainstream is by definition not boring" with a definitely mainstream piece that I find boring, Für Elise. Every time I listen to Beethoven's Für Elise, I just want to fall asleep cause it doesn't interest me at all.
As a child, it was the only full Beethoven piece that I liked(I clarify full here, because I did like the Ode to Joy melody, but I hadn't listened to the full Ninth Symphony that it's part of at the time). I didn't like the Fifth Symphony as a child cause I didn't understand it. It wasn't until I actually looked at and analyzed the score of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony that I could understand and appreciate what was going on.
Then one day, I was searching for a C minor piano concerto cause I was just in the mood for such a piece and I was expecting Mozart to be first in the search results cause I was a big Mozart fan at the time and I could search say "Bb major string quartet" and Mozart would be first in the search results. Didn't happen that way with the C minor concerto search, instead I got Beethoven as the first search result.
I was like "Huh, okay, I'll listen to it." and was just blown away by the drama packed first movement, the move to E major, very distant key for the second movement, and the rondo third movement. Then a few days later, I listened to the Pathetique and Appassionata sonatas and was again blown away by the drama.
That was the start of a major shift in listening for me. I went from Beethoven being my least favorite to my most favorite composer. The Fifth Symphony immediately shifted to being my all time favorite symphony above even Mozart 40, my previous favorite symphony. Beethoven's music opened many doors to other composers for me, such as Schubert and Liszt.
But at the same time, Für Elise became my least favorite Beethoven piece to listen to. It went from "I like this piece" to "Ugh, so boring, I just want to fall asleep it's so boring."
Would Jan Dismas Zelenka be considered lesser-known? If so, I doubt there is a bigger hidden gem than him. Also, I enjoy Paul Wranitzky, especially his 3rd Sextet in E flat major.
@@caterscarrots3407 I would very seldom choose to listen to Für Elise now - but it's a famous piece for a good reason.
It has actually managed to GAIN popularity over centuries.
The way you describe your adventure with music is the same as most deep fans of Classical - we start with the simpler stuff and gradually get into more complex music and then get bored of simplicity.
But I promise you - if you forget about Für Elise and don't listen to it for many years, and then suddenly listen to a stunningly beautiful performance of it when you're in your 70s or 80s - you will be moved by it again and listen to it like a child once more.
Of course we are all able to find pieces of music that we subjectively are bored by, but they are not "boring" pieces, because they are beloved by many other people.
The same is true of popular music too but so much of the popularity within that is based on trends, hype, and personalities - so you can only really tell what's truly the "best" popular music by noticing which songs are still listened to regularly decades later.
The Leningrad tune is actually from Franz Lehar, Hitler’s favourite composer next to Wagner. The tune was called “da get’ ich ins Maxim’s". The Germans were playing the tune constantly on the radio as an intimidation tactic against the citizens of Leningrad, and also to honour their Führer. Schostakovich brilliantly took the rather jolly tune and turned it into a terrifying musical juggernaut. In 1945, Bartók, not getting the allusion, made fun of Schostakovich, by parodying the parody in his Concerto for Orchestra, IV. Intermezzo interrotto. When everything goes off the rails, that’s the quotation.
To be clear, I adore both works and composers. Lehar, not so much. He’s like a discount Strauß, in which nothing really works smoothly.
It took me so long to make the connection. I've been watching your videos for years at this point. I only just realised I was in your class at conservatoire (back in first and second term). 😅
If people think these masterpieces are boring, there really isn’t any hope for my compositions. Good grief.
Back to haydn: no one matched his string quartets. There are about 40 great ones.
John Cage's 4'33"
I find the last 10 seconds of that to be a bit tedious
@@Philrc Only the last ten seconds? 🤣
Tried playing that one, made a few mistakes, I think I went deaf in my left eye.
@@peterney2402 yeah it's those weird changes in the time signatures that throw me
@@Philrc Not a fan of the solo part 2 minutes in
And btw, Professor King, have you ever thought about doing some kind of analysis video on Chavez? I know this is off topic for the current thread, but if you were ever to do an in depth analysis on his 2nd and/or 3rd Symphonies, or even his Ten Piano Preludes (Not really "even" because they are such a collective masterpiece) I would be your most devoted fan for life. And l also suspect that you would have an enormous amount of fun. And that is certainly more important.
That was such a lovely time, Profession. Thank you very much.
It should be a crime to say that Papa Haydn is boring, he is one of the most inventive, funniest composers and pieces like his creation or late sonatas can compete with anything Mozart ever composed
I use reddit constantly. and i've found recently that reddit musicians are always so confidently incorrect and the hivemind show's harder than ever because none of them know what they're talking about. it is infuriating. i decided to just not interact with music subreddits ouitside of r/music because rarely is genre or skill ever discussed.
How anybody found Brahm's Piano Concerto 1 soporific I find difficult to fathom! I admit it took me more than one performance to fall in completely love with it, but it is far too dramatic to ever be called boring or sleep-inducing.
Shostakovich's Leningrad Symphony is yet another fascinating claim for boring, which I reject. I think the Professor correctly identifies 'banal' as a key theme Dmitri was aiming at. But I am of the view that in conception this piece was originally conceived about what Stalin had done to Leningrad, more than what the Nazi's were doing. Dmitri could not safely admit this, and perhaps was happy for the piece to be appropriated for the siege. However it fits the view of a Dictator suppressing popular music (like the Tahiti Trot) and instead saying some dull artless 'overtly chirpy tune' shouod make the citizens happy why not all dance to that? Once I think of the piece in this light, the genius becomes clear, the critique becomes clear, and the musical journey of the symphony makes so much more sense.
Haydn, boring? He basically invented jumpscare (second movement of the 94th symphony) and found an original way to protest against his employer (last movement of the Farewell symphony).
There are basically two types of music. Educational and entertaining. In the past centuries, those who wanted to listen to educational music might get bored with entertaining (time-passing) music. Similarly, people who intended entertaining music would find educational (prescriptive) music boring.
Nowadays, with the spread of digital culture, I think the majority has shifted to educational music. The algorithm of everything is being solved and having fun and spending time is becoming a mindless behavior.
19:12 -- I just noticed that Schönberg's "Verklarte Nacht" sextet is based around the beginning of the Liszt B Minor sonata!
Oh yes!
Fantastic polish on the upright piano! I like being able to see the view you get to have
I *love* that you compared teenage Mendelssohn with teenage Stevie Wonder! Yes, both geniuses.
I don't understand at all that list ! (Erich Wolfgang Korngold was an outstanding teenager composer as well, by the way. His maturity was very surprising). The phrase phrase in Ravel's bolero is amazingly long, which is a preformance in itself already and the way how the climax is brought and then collapsing is amazing. Haydn wrote a huge amount of marvellous music for pinao, string quartets, organ concertos ... Bartok's concerto for orchestra is really stunning. Mahler's first symphony is amazing too ! My favorite with the 9th (because of the "dying" Adagio). The canon in D is really a nice piece, but in its original version ! Brahms first piano concerto is soooo nice too. The first movement is really great and the second one is full of tenderness and beautiful melody. Liszt piano sonata is THE ABSOLUTE MASTERPIECE for piano of the 19th century if not more (but it must be played well) !!!
@FougarouBe I've been listening to classical music for over 60 years and I know most of the mainstream repertoire and much of the not so well known pieces. Haydn is one of my favorite composers, but I was unaware that he wrote organ concertos. I was ready to correct you by saying that you meant Handel, but you're right. Now I have something new to be acquainted with. BTW, his brother, Michael wrote some wonderful pieces also.
Can you name a piece which shouldn't be played well?
Wow, I fully agree with you, yes I love Mahler 1, I think it is a great introduction to his symphony, being the first one and the shortest, Pachelbel's Canon in it's original version is beautiful, but people tend to forget the Gigue.
@@rawvision6701Wait, Haydn wrote organ concertos? I'm way younger than you but I didn't know that, I'm gonna check it out, that man could do everything.
Now we need a video on most adventurous and exciting music. Kurt Atterberg’s 6th symphony. Brahm’s Requiem, Richard Strauss tone poems, Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony… so many lovely works.
Martinu's P 41 is such a bright piece of music
Classical music CAN be boring...so can jazz, pop music, rap, country and western. I don't find Bolero particularly interesting, especially compared with Ravel's two Piano Concerti and his piano music. Leningrad Symphony, Bartok Concerto for Orchestra, Mahler 1, Brahms PC1 and Liszt Piano Sonata are wonderful, exciting masterpieces. For me, Einaudi is boring as his music is rather static rhymically and harmonically. Not a huge Haydn fan, but he did develop the symphony significantly and his English piano sonata is wonderful.
The Leningrad symphony isn't Shostakovich's best symphony , but how can anyone dislike the climax the march reaches in the first movement, the outburst of rage in the slow movement, or the entire second movement?
Stravinsky considered Haydn to be the most innovative of all composers. Haydn also has lots of hidden Easter-eggs for attentive listeners in many of his pieces.
Boring - is so personal.
Something where I was bored or more accurately
wishing it would end as I didn't want to hear anymore
was Chopin's Piano Concerto no. 1
mostly because it was modelled on "not exciting" stuff
(sorry Hummel)
It is boring in comparison with other works he wrote
I remember a BBC Radio programme about Ravel's Bolero
where the piece was played through while they interviewed
musicians. It was great radio and hearing a man who played the
snare drum explaining his role and how he felt about it was interesting.
I also remember as a student (of Chemistry) but interested in music
going to a lecture on Schönberg's String Trio held in the University Music Venue
(so seats for 500 people)
There were eight of us if you include the lecturer and eleven if you include the players
They played the piece once through,
the lecturer gave his lecture with illustrations from the performers
then they played it through again.
Though it is not my favourite piece of Schönberg
(I am a weird person and can and do "sing" parts of Pierrot Lunaire in the shower)
it is a lot higher up because of that experience.
I think experiences and location make up a lot of how we perceive music.
A friend of mine who recorded every gig he went to
went to a gig in Oxford to see two local bands
the support band was "Ride" on their second gig ever
and the headliners were "Satan Knew My Father"
He rewound the tape of Ride and overwrote it with the headline band
as Ride were too boring and infamously said they wouldn't amount to much.
The next year Ride had their breakthrough and were pioneers in "shoegazer" music.
Pachelbel at the original _alla breve_ tempo moves right along, each variation topping the last. It is most always played at half tempo. The performance practice makes it less interesting, not the composition.
17:32 Oddly enough, I dusted off my box set of Boulez' complete works on DG today, and I really enjoyed the first few discs; mostly the piano works, wonderfully played by Pierre-Laurent Aimard and Pollini. Fascinating stuff.
Saying Liszts sonata in b minor is boring is a crazyy take, it gotta be one of the top ten masterpieces from the solo piano repertoire
Some non-musicians hate it because it's too complex for them and some musicians hate it because they just hate liszt and think he's just raw technique.
@@octopuszombie8744 imo the sonata in b minor is a perfekt example for the Musical Genius side of Liszt
I think it was a reference to Brahms falling asleep during a performance of that sonata
@@octopuszombie8744 It's still crazy to see that piece on there, nonetheless. Not only is it one of the most exciting pieces of solo piano, but it's a treasure trove to analyze, because you begin to understand the structure and what Liszt does in that piece.
That said, most of Liszt's pieces are underrated, as he is so often misunderstood and dismissed as a composer who is "just raw technique". Most of his reminiscences and fantasies (e.g. Don Juan, Lucrezia Borgia, La Scala) are also fantastic to analyze for similar reasons to the sonata, and they are exciting as well. I can add Mephisto Waltz there too.
The one problem that Liszt faces however, is that so many pianists don't give many of his pieces justice.. either due to their difficulty or their interpretations that aren't suited with what they are playing. One example is Jorge Bolet's grand galop chromatique, which is terrible, boring, and is not how the piece should be played when you compare that to the score!!
Now, I'm certain that other composers face that similar problem (e.g. Gould's appassionata comes to mind).. but with Liszt, that problem seems to be magnified a lot more.
18:47 - Is this not a reference to when Brahms fell asleep while Liszt himself performed the sonata? Rather than an actual statement against the sonata?
Yes it is and I should have pointed that out because it's an interesting story.
Off-topic but how are you able to recall so many works from memory at the keyboard? Does it come from having studied the scores or does it have more to do with a well trained ear?
I can probably answer this. There are two types of musicians (generic statement, take with a grain of sugar) ones who learn to memorize and learn how to do it well, and those who while they can still memorize, are able to audiate the music very well. It's hard to describe, but if you can hear it accurately in your head, you can play it. It's almost like on the spot transcribing and performing of what you are hearing in your head. Also, don't underestimate how much time and experience they have under their belt, and how that might contribute
@adamguitar1498 has already kindly answered this. Yes, I have good musical recall so I can essentially play things 'by ear' if I need to. I think the video demonstrates that I don't always do it elegantly (especially on an electric keyboard - we might try to do more of this kind of thing on the piano in future!) I don't necessarily have to have seen a score to reproduce it fairly accurately at the piano. These are mostly skills I developed as a teenager (a very long time ago!) I'm actually sorry that the 'spontaneity' of this video means that the playing/singing is extremely rough!
I love listening to you speak about the literature. Will you talk about the marvels of the Scriabin sonatas?
I do admire Scriabin but actually I need to spend more time with his sonatas before I feel qualified to discuss them.
the problem is we have too much fantastic classical music that rarely or never sees the light of day in a live performance
These "boring"-comments talk more about those persons' own limits and lack of insight rather than about the limits of the scolded music pieces. Some people don't realize how stupid their remarks are.
My idea of a party is to break open some kombucha and listen to Frescobaldi's Fiori Musicali.
I kid you not when I say my my eyebrows raised and eyes widened when someone put down all of Haydn. As the writer kept going, my jaw dropped, too. I was just shocked that anyone, at least someone with interest in classical music, could find Haydn boring!
@jaydenfung1 Yes, if Haydn's Creation is boring, then all of classical music must be boring. If one listens to ALL of the 104 symphonies and is not struck by the ingenious variety of expression and innovation, there is no hope. The sonatas, the masses, and so many other pieces are the works of a true genius.
I have heard boring performances of Haydn. But when I heard the same exact piece performed by an actually good orchestra that knew what it was doing (conducted by Giovanni Antonini), the difference was night and day. Suddenly the boring and bland music became really interesting.
Actually a really good example is that Stamitz performance shown in the video. It just sounds terrible. I'm bored after the first 10 seconds. I listened to another version of it that sounded so much better. Is it the most exciting music out there? Definitely not. But it still does its job. (And the nice thing is, it isn't too long.)
All in all, older music tends to require performers that know what they are doing. The music itself isn't necessarily the most exciting thing out there - the performers need to make it exciting. A lot of baroque and early classical music can sound really boring if the musicians aren't experts of the style.
@@MaggaraMarine Like Matthew King said, context is important! You are right about all of this.
Orchestral music has some of the most fun combination of notes and sounds I've ever heard. Try out the music from the games, Stellaris or Skyrim. Beautiful. Meanwhile, popularized music is often lacking in variety of notes and creativity. How do people define boring? Lack of singing?
6:41 thank you for not making me feel crazy for seeing the link between Bolero and Memory. The first time I heard Bolero I could have sworn I was listening to some orchestral version of Memory. Definitely a rip-off.
Oh, and at 17:28 did you really correct Amy Beach to Bach? I mean, I'm sure someone who calls themselves the Music Professor has at least heard of Beach, but it's a little sad to see that you didn't recognize the name immediately.
Edit: ah, you immediately corrected it. My bad. But still, she is the person I'd have put in that series of composers instead of Bach, who I believe still has some pretty unfortunate works.
I have found that I harbored some prejudices from my youth that included works like the Liszt B minor sonata, the Franck Symphony in D (from having played it in a concert), Pelleas & Melisande, the Manfred Symphony, all of which I have since completely come around to and deeply love. For me, most minimalist music is inherently boring and uninteresting (Glass, Reich, Adams) although I can appreciate on the smallest level the inventiveness of the permutations, or, specific pieces, like Adams' "Short Ride in a Fast Machine". But if I had to really determine what music I now find truly boring, it would be Bruckner's orchestral anything (the Motets are like gems and so intensely beautiful), I still cannot find my way around the Goethe scene of Mahler 8 (and though I'm a devoted Mahlerian I always find any of the choral/vocal movements in the symphonies--except #4--to be the ones I am least drawn to), and Schubert's endless Piano Sonatas (which are full of beautiful things, they can be beautiful and still be boring totra listen to) and those damned interminable song cycles! I just won't have them and I have utterly no desire to sing them and have to spew out kilometers worth of stodgy and insipid text. No, thank you. What perhaps many would be shocked from me is that I find certain works like Le nozze di Figaro and L'elisir d'amore to be dreadful boring to sit through. There are, of course, specific arias and ensembles that are extraordinary, but I find that, even after 30 years of trying to listen and watch them, I lose interest far too quickly. They are both works of genius, and again, with many merits, but Nozze has, vocally and compositionally, almost nothing in comparison to Così fan tutte or Idomeneo or Entfuhrung, and of all of Donizetti's 78(+/-) operas, one sort of wishes L'elisir had been one of the forgotten ones and perhaps just "Una furtiva lagrima" remained as a staple repertoire piece, like so many other arias did of various operas which should never have fallen by the wayside. My other gripe about Nozze is that, other than the roles of Count and Countess, it is not so vocally demanding as other Mozartian roles...and as such, is able to accommodate a far larger range of singers of varying abilities and accomplishments to the point that they are more often than not sung quite poorly and with mediocre singers, students and small to regional theaters putting it on without expert artists, and this is the problem because to sing those roles truly well require people with great technical and theatrical accomplishment despite their apparent simplicity...it is the overly accessible nature of the piece (also, despite some extraordinary writing, the orchestration is not quite as complex, nor harmonically speaking, compared to his other operas) which has, in my opinion, devalued it tremendously. The same can be said of the Donizetti comedy...to really sing those parts well require artists of a certain level of accomplishment, but because it's a charming comedy, as is Nozze, directors run wild and are able to make a big theatrical splash with frequently basic and underwhelming vocalists. In general, I have found it's rarely the composer's fault that something is boring but it bores because of the performance/performers.
As always, I'd say it boils down to performance. A great performance of Figaro can be electrifying! Interesting comment about the Goethe scene in Mahler 8: I think it's a strange and problematic thing in a way: Mahler attempting to write a spiritual opera and it feels a bit forced because he's trying so hard to make you realise how profound he is! I think Mahler's much more profound in his Rückert Lieder
@@themusicprofessor Max Rudolf used to say how people's reticence towards new music was really only about lack of familiarity; that any given work needs to be heard 3-4 times before a listener can determine anything concrete about it. Of course, we have a luxury of usually having multiple recordings to refer to, and as happens, if one has only ever heard one recording that might be on one's shelf and it's never quite moved one, it's useful to hear another or attend a live performance. Of course that goes for anything not just modern compositions. This was something my first bassoon teacher taught me: that it wasn't enough to just listen to a given work but that who was performing/conducting could often make all the difference.
The Mahler movement really is problematic and I've yet to hear anyone really make it into something that doesn't feel totally static and dragging. I think so many conductors want to be indulgent to a point where it lacks forward propulsion of any sort.
Oh, another composer who generally upset me is Hindemith! What wasted ink. Brilliant mind, so prolific, yet so very little that is truly inspired.
i'd love a video about the liszt sonata!
This video was great fun, and l agree with basically all of your rejoinders. Naturally, l had a hundred comments throughout, but have now pretty much forgotten them all. Looking forward to part 2!
Oh, l do recall one comment l had, which is that l so agree with you that whenever Shosty was monotonous, it was done deliberately, and usually with great sense of irony. Also, the only piece of his that l really find uninspiring is the Festive Overture. But l recall that he might have written that in a single afternoon or some such?
It's far from boring though!
@@themusicprofessor Oh, it isn't even remotely boring! It's just the least interesting popular piece he ever wrote. Haha
Many of these are clearly conflating boring with “I don’t like this” and/or “I’m tired of playing this.” I love Bolero, but I used to play Bassoon/Contrabassoon in an orchestra and it is dreadful to play as a contrabassonist. I should add that most of my favorite pieces with cbssn parts, I’d much rather listen to the than play them. There are certainly notable exceptions, but it’s a whole lot of sitting around sometimes.
That's funny. I've always wondered if people thought Beethoven went mad toward the end. I've read multiple bios and none talk about this. Some of his last works are so crazy. Thanks. I feel better now.
It's funny how I almost feel like I can't agree to any comment. One about Einaudi is right, though
Good show!
I've tried Bruckner several times and always found it boring. I just can't get it I suppose.
I've thought more about the subject of this video - and whether there is wrong with finding, for instance, Pachabel's Canon boring or not? It is clearly a masterpiece, and I have adored it at points in my life, but it is seriously overexposed getting far too much airing on 'classical' radio stations, and as background for adverts, or even within films and TV series - and let us not mention the countless shopping centres that employ it. Overexposure can make even the greatest of music over time eventually boring. Even a great Bach fugue, or a late Beethoven String Quartet could be dulled by overplaying - and that is surely a modern indulgence of society since the invention of recording equipment, and the ability to constantly replay what none of the pre-20th century music masters would have ever imagined to be tasteful. So great music, I can argue can be boring by overexposure.
But there is a second point, no piece of music can or should try to aim to please all. Such a piece I would argue would be necessarily bland - because it will also not be trying to displease, or shock anyone. As such I am perfectly comfortable with people telling me they find Beethoven' Hammerklavier Sonata boring. It is a valid opinion, I just don't happen to share it, and the musical world is immeasurably richer because of these varied opinions. I would argue there is NO single piece of music that everyone on the planet will agree is exciting and wonderful, and too often the term 'masterpiece' is used as a defence to any criticism, which I think is a mistake.
In the end, if Reddit users wish to claim any masterpiece is 'boring' - so be it, it is a valid view - although I wish they would illuminate us on the reasoning more articulately. What would be more interesting is claiming which musical pieces they find the most exciting, and why - because that might introduce me to a new great piece of music and do us all a service.
Wise comment. Thank you.
When Ravel wrote the Bolero he was suffering from a rare degenerative brain disease, which had a direct effect on the whole composition. There's a fascinating episode of Radiolab about this. Check it out.
I contributed to a BBC Radio 4 programme about this around a decade ago. I'm afraid I don't buy it. Ravel did have brain degenerative condition in the 1930s but I don't believe it had any bearing on Bolero. People seem to forget that, after Bolero (1928) he wrote the 2 greatest piano concertos of the twentieth century, brimming over with compositional virtuosity, before the onset of his disease and, once it took hold, he couldn't compose any more. I don't believe the disease affected his compositional thinking. It simply prevented it.
All in all, the choice of the "boring" music pieces is quite on the surface. If those "music lovers" criticising the pieces cannot mention other works than those classics, it shows that they do not really know more than the basic repertoire everybody knows. And their judgment is most probably not a very understanding and deep one.
Reddit is a refuge, seldom a place for discovery. Enjoyed your post, though! Thx. 🌝
"According to Reddit".
Me: "Well, that's the sign we don't need to care about it..."
'Boring' I think is a cliché and covers a range of meanings in this context - sure, there are pieces I like and pieces I like less, but there is also joy in seeing the progression from one composer to another (or another genre), so I find the fundamental Reddit argument a bit trite and there is always something to learn.
Is 'boring' what one perceives personally or is it what one's exposed to (sometimes frequently again and again e.g. Zadok the Priest/Champions League)? Everything is part of a process and has its value.
Much more impressed btw is by you playing Liszt's B minor sonata - congrats! I had to study that as part of my A-Level course a million years ago ... and when we get to the theme in the piano score around page 8 or so, shivers still go down my spine (and several times thereafter)! For me personally, that piece is not boring! (... at all imo!)
I must have played Ravel's Bolero 5 or 6 dozen times during my long career as a double-bass player. Plunk, plunk, plunk, (rest). Plunk, plunk, plunk, (rest). Plunk, plunk, plunk, (rest). Plunk, plunk, plunk, (rest). Are you tired of this yet? Plunk, plunk, plunk, (rest). Plunk, plunk, plunk, (rest). Plunk, plunk, plunk, (rest). Let me know when you've had enough. Plunk, plunk, plunk, (rest). Plunk, plunk, plunk, (rest). Plunk, plunk, plunk, (rest). Plunk, plunk, plunk, (rest). NO! It's not over yet!!! Plunk, plunk, plunk, (rest). Plunk, plunk, plunk, (rest). etc. ad infinitum Thank God I'm retired.
I never knew that Boléro had lyrics ;)
@@ftumschk You'd never understand unless you were a bass or 'cello player. 😏
Double basses are often sentenced to play such parts, not only in the Bolero. That's due to their role in orchestra and possibly a necessity in the whole picture of the piece. But the pieces are not written to please double bass players, there is s.th. else at stake. So, this cannot be a criterion for judging a music piece as boring or not.
When i think of Stamitz i first think of the father then of the Solo Concerts By the son (where Are certainly Great works among!) Maybe the similarity with haydn is the difference in quality. Some pieces sound Kind of odd (even if i Love haydn, yes, some of the 105 (?) Haydn Symphonies do too). But they have in common, that they share the experimental classical character especially with Form!
All music can be boring if you hear it enough. I don't like a lot of classical music because you hear it everywhere. I also don't like hearing the Beatles for the same reason. But Stockhausen and Subotnik remain interesting because you don't hear them every day.
Curiously that's not my case.
Please do a thing about Liszt sonata
I always thought some of Schumann was boring. Some of Jan Peeterzoon Sweelinck’s organ fantasias go on and on seemingly endlessly. They are like an author than rambles on and on and takes forever to actually say something. I played several this morning merely for the sight reading brain work. I have always thought Haydn’s symphonies are boring. Also I was never excited about learning Kabalevsky’s sonatinas. Thank you for this video. It reminded me of all the music I have found boring in my life.
Concerto No. 1 in G minor? This is a damn cool piece, and damn hard to me. Chock full of bravura from the beginning. Why was my professor dismissive of Mendelssohn's piano works?
There's a lot of strange snobbery around Mendelssohn - possibly a vestige of Wagner's antisemitic propaganda still hanging around.
Ooh, I was expecting a barely penetrable video essay bursting with obscure references and dispirate connections, academic jargon and the most abstruse theories on value judgements eventually concluding Wagner's _Ring_ is more boring than a sine wave pure tone (perhaps).
.... _Rhine_ wave, surely?
For boring classical music I suggest Rubinstein's quintet opus 55.
I personally find Ravel's Bolero boring despite being a huge Ravel fan -- just because it is *so* long and is often only trotted out at concerts because of the Torville and Dean connection (at least in the UK).
I feel similarly about the 1812 overture. The famous bit is just right at the end of course, but they played it at the Edinburgh Festival Fireworks one year and the crowd was listless. I also say this as someone who likes Tchaikovsky.
I think my biggest one personally is Scarlatti Sonatas. I know that he was incredibly prolific in writing them but I find them to just be a little overly flowery and the subjects go on a little too long before the development starts. I suppose that might not be entirely the same thing as boring? I just find them a little eye-rolling.
A good performance of Bolero might convince you how wonderful it really is: all Ravel's genius focussed on pure melodic unravelling and slow, incremental sonic change and expansion. Scarlatti's sonatas are things of wonder: they explote 18th century instrumental form and keyboard writing from almost every imaginable angle. ua-cam.com/video/5neQMIDHbgs/v-deo.htmlsi=8tDcuNJu4Y3NjdLc
Yeah Bolero can become pretty basic if you listen to the rest of Ravel, I love the 1812 Overture and hearing it with a chorus is even more EPIC, I have nothing negative to say about Tchaikovsky, but he surely did, he hated it, he wasn't convinced by some of his own works, sometimes I wonder if he regretted been a composer.
I dislike the assertion that there’s any one greatest person at anything creative.
To be fair, that Stamitz performance shown in the video is just terrible. Still not the most exciting music out there, but that performance doesn't do the music any justice.
I sat through an entire live performance of Cosi Fan Tutti with horn intonation no better than in the Stamitz example, I have suffered.
Pardon me if I show ignorance (hope I don't), but I find rock/pop music to be boring. Within a given song, I perceive almost no variation in rhythm. volume or instrumental variety (except maybe Chicago with its horns), and little or no modulation. It is written for a low attention span crowd. That may be a reason why there are few if any rock concertos or symphonies.
Many classical pieces, especially from the Romantic era and on have incredible variety and sweet melodies. This may also be true of the Classical period but maybe my ear and mind isn't trained well enough to perceive the excitement in such music. Even atonal music like the opera Wozzeck by Alan Berg can be fascinating.
Overall you're right - so it's fun to look for the exceptions. I suggest Gentle Giant and Emerson, Lake and Palmer's Tarkus.
The remark about lack of instrumental variation is a bit off the point. The string quartet genre "suffers" from the same.
@@marknieuweboer8099 I was speaking in general. Nonetheless, I find there is an almost complete lack of rhythmic variety within most if not all pop songs.
I got into the habit of switching Classic FM on every morning during the pandemic.... and.... aaargh! To put it simply, many months later, it had completely ruined my enjoyment of some of my hitherto favourite pieces. And by the time the 698th rendition of 'The Lark Ascending' had only reached the end of the third bar, The Radio Descended, like a brick, through my kitchen window. Sorry RVW, Classic FM cracked me!
I do agree that most music from good composers aren’t boring, ravels bolero is. Repeating the same thing over and over again, sure he builds the orchestra but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s the same things continuing. I think the Hayden’s piece was less boring than bolero 😂
I get bored by 85% of the Mahler I've listened to, 90% of the Bruckner. Shostakovich 7th has the misfortune of falling between the 4th and the 8th and consequently will forever be passed by. The first mvt of the 7th was finished before the association with the Nazi conflict was appended to it I have read. Haydn's Violin Concerto in C is thee epitome of grace.
I like Mahler, Shostakovich and Bruckner, so sorry for you😂
I find Greig a bit boring; not bad but very easy listening and doesn't demand anything from me like, for instance, Beethoven does.
What do i find boring???? Elgar symphonies 1 and 2. Nothing but note-spinning. A composer lost in the woods.
They're masterpieces
Mendelssohn’s a minor is as good as the Beethoven op. 132? Damn good quartet, but not the equal of op. 132.
Things things are deeply subjective. Op. 132 has an immense status like the other late quartets (and rightly so) but what Mendelssohn achieves in his Op. 13 is absolutely astonishing: he emulates late Beethoven but in a completely individual way and somehow manages to make it all sound completely fresh and new. The technical accomplishment and balance is a miracle. It's a unique example of teenage genius in its purest form: a young composer aiming - with all the confidence of youth - at the highest model and achieving their goal. Wonderful.
Bruckner's fifth symphony might be his best. There are a number of bad recordings, even by famous conductors
I have a simple trick for distinguishing Mozart from Haydn when I hear a classical piece I don't recognize: if it bores me to tears it 's Mozart, the most overrated composer in the history of music if you ask me. (Luckily no one ever does haha). I just don't get it. Like, at all.
Haydn is the most consistently interesting composer of the classical Era. The invention is just jaw-dropping. Mozart may be a greater composer but he is nowhere near as consistently good.
To suggest Mendelssohn was more brilliant than Mozart is a bit absurd. Let's take a few steps back and examine their respective oeuvres... I mean didn't they die around the same age? Consider what they both did after 30 and what they might've done. I think we can always speculate about what might've been, but I'm sure we'll all agree that music history would be richer had Mozart lived to 60 rather than Felix 😁
you could definitely argue either way
@@dazhund3297 is this real life? Mozart is clearly the superior composer.
@Dazbog373 yep it's real life! I would give mozart the edge but only slightly. And certainly young Mendelssohn > young mozart
@@dazhund3297 Mendelssohn was a mediocrity compared with some of his contemporaries. Comparing him with Mozart is like comparing the monkies to the beatles.
@Dazbog373 ok now you're just wrong
Also the Beatles are overrated
Elgar’s War Requiem is a clunker.
Elgar didn’t write the War Requiem
@@matthewking1873 Presumably that's why it's a clunker ;)
Why would you do this on an electric piano while you have access to a real piano behind you?
@@Archiekunst the idea was to react on the computer screen. In the future we'll probably do it on a phone and at the real piano
I like Haydn but I don't like Mozart. I like Buxtehude but I don't like JS Bach. I like Liszt but I don't like Chopin. I like Krommer but I don't like Beethoven.
Huh? You don’t like Bach, Mozart and Beethoven?
I guess you don't like the obvious.
My wife thinks anything performed solo on piano is boring. As someone who firmly believes that Beethoven's piano sonatas comprise one of the most incredible bodies of music ever composed, I could not disagree more.
Leave her right now
People like you make classical boring. 12 tone is all Greek, but fascinating.
I tried to like Bruckner, but alas I could not. Nothing but soft ethereal passages followed by fanfares; wash, rinse, repeat. Nope. Boring!
I like it, I guess you just have to like EPIC music like I do, better try his choral works.
The teenage Korngold was also as prodigiously accomplished as Mendelssohn. Neither knew how to compose boring music.
I completely accept Korngold's prodigious talent at a very young age. The difference with Mendelssohn is that he managed to produce era-defining masterpieces as a teenager with pieces like the Midsummer Night's Dream overture and the octet and the 2 early string quartets. No one else has done that.
@@themusicprofessor I absolutely agree. Mendelssohn was a teen innovator in the mould of nobody but himself, whereas Korngold was a teen in the mould of Mahler and Schreker both of whom composed better Mahler and Schreker than he ever did.
I think some people don't take Korngold seriously because of his film music career, even his father did, Jascha Heifetz tried to convince people to play Korngold's Violin Concerto, at the end he did recorded it.
That Chopin fugue is more interesting to me than anything Vivialdi ever composed 😂. Regardless of different historical periods. Bolero: proto minimalism
I'm not a fan of Wagner but he was an astonishing composer. Not boring musically. Drama is another story.
He was a great dramatist too.
@@themusicprofessor I meant the texts themselves.
Wow, someone finally admits it.
Hot take perhaps, but I'll take the lot of them over Feldman...
To be honest, I would listen to Feldman's 2SQ over pretty much anything by Wagner. Who is the the epitomy of all mouth and no trousers. :)
@@Typhon399Meanwhile I can like both.
Someone who plays and listens to classical music and doesn’t like Ravel either doesn’t understand it or doesn’t like music.
Can't agree on your take on Bolero, it's the worst of Ravel who I consider to tend towards being insipid at best. And my heavens, I hate the Lark Ascending. I also defend Mahler's first more than I should, but it's firmly at the bottom of his repertoire for me.
I like Mahler's first, I think it is a good introduction to his work, been the shortest, and I love Vaughan Williams and Ravel.
Korngold > Mendelssohn as teenagers
I disagree. Korngold was talented but there's nothing to match Midsummer Night's Dream or the Octet.
I disagree with you as well, sir! Those works are masterpieces. But the level of skill and complexity of works like Märchenbilder op.3 are far beyond that of Midsummer's Night's Dream. Different era of course, but still, the depth of feeling and virtuosity of expression is greater in Korngold. Having conducted both, this is my opinion.
I admire Korngold of course. No one would deny the extraordinary 12-year old sophistication of the Märchenbilder or the magnificent 15-year-old Sinfonietta. These are of course wonderful monuments to youthful genius. However, my case for Mendessohn's unique preeminence is as follows: in Korngold's pieces, there is a spectacular youthful reaction to Mahler, Strauss, Shrecker and Zemlinksy and Korngold manages brilliantly to carve out a very individual place for himself in their company but there's no sense (for all his genius) that he is surpassing them or that he is in any sense reforging orchestral style or anything of that sort. By contrast, Mendelssohn, even in the scoring of the opening chords of Midsummer Night's Dream, opens a new window onto sound itself. His orchestration is immediately new and extraordinary with a fantastic, unprecedented lightness and fleetness which makes even Beethoven's scoring seem, by contrast, heavy and even slightly amateurish. With Mendelssohn all the potential grace, sophistication and magic of the modern orchestra is unleashed with absolute assurance. The octet and early string quartets are similarly astonishing. If he'd died at 20, he'd be one of the greatest composers in history. Korngold...not quite.
If that's what you're using as criteria, then I concur!
I think Belero is pretty boring. Sorry.
Gonna confess: some slow movements from the classical period are REALLLLY boring (eg haydn or mozart) (i said SOME not ALL)
HAYDN IS JUST STUPID AHAHAHAHAHAH, great video btw!