SO Helpful!!! My car died and wouldn't restart. I did the simple test you showed. My module tested bad. Went and got a new one.. Car runs as good as ever! Thank you so much!!!
If you got a module that works right the first time, you got real lucky! Some times it takes 3 or 4 modules to get a good one. Even the Ford one is now chinese junk.
@@quarterblacktravis On Ford vehicles from the 90s and i believe some 80s there is a module attached to the distributor with 2 screws,its usually grey and the big harness plug connnects to them,they are famous for going out at the worse time,there was actually a lawsuit back in the early 90s about them,once they go out you are not going anywhere, not even God could turn that car back on. You go buy a new one and you need a special tool to get the screws out,its basically a little screwdriver that acts as a socket with really thin walls, you can get a socket and turn it down and you'll have the same tool, you have to put dielectric grease (artic paste, the stuff used on computer sinks works better) on the metal part of the module that goes against the distributor because heat kills these modules,on the 94 and 95 Mustangs that came with the 5.0 they relocated the module away from the heat,sorry for the long post, i try to cover all the bases.
Thank you so much my mustang has been sitting for yrs with no spark after watching your video and having some extra money I found that when testing the ground side of the coil while cranking it didn't flicker so I bought a new distributor which was only $40 more than a new module and it fired right up, I'm so pissed I didn't try earlier, now I'm saving up for a motorcraft distributor
hoping you get this comment , im well seasoned around TFI systems. Im putting a vid together just for a youtuber called scannerdanner, if he had only found your info earlier he would not have struggled with pip troubleshooting so much. He is focused heavily on "proving" the pip is bad when its been diagnosed as the pip is at fault. Fox people accepted long ago they give you little or no warning. today i will put out a vid with my 2c worth.
Paul (Scanner Danner) is excellent, and knows exactly what he's doing. I know him a little bit, and he's taught me more than a thing or two! I've probably spent more time scoping the PIP and SPOUT signals and experimenting with these 5.0's (see my PIP and SPOUT videos to see what these signals really look like to a computer). But Paul has a ton of experience and was in the field for years when these cars were still very commonly in daily use. What you have to understand is that Paul is not trying to fix cars. He's trying to teach us all every possible way to diagnose a car. So he shows us every way to test it, from the hardest with minimal tools to the easiest with the really expensive tools. I highly recommend watching all his free videos, and then buying access to his paid videos that go more in depth and technical. They're worth every cent!
I totally agree, he puts in the hard work. However.... and i say this with all respect due him, some very basic knowledge of certain things about these systems aren't in his notes or skill sets. Take for instance on the vid , "Getting my ass kicked by an 86 mustang pt1". He is discussing the pip scope signal and skims over its readings of around 10vDC (should be around 5-7vdc). also,, in part 2 of the vid, they cant get the dizzy out of the car because its now stuck. The dizzy gear metallurgy matching the cam metallurgy seemed to be something new to him as well. I give him a pass on all this because for gods sake,, how much info can he know about these systems. I recently only learned "what actually happened" when my son's 88 Tbird dizzy got stuck. Its scary how untrustworthy the aftermarket parts makers is today. Another thing is his unplugging and plugging back in of the spout jumper. You never do that during engine operation. There are several FoMoCo internal TSB's discussing or should i say "re-iterating" that techs should not do this. He and many other do this and its putting your TFI at risk of inrush. Im going to be making this and other points on my vids on this topic. Either way,, Your content is by far top shelf for staying focused on the issue.
@@ifixitall-24-7 I suppose none of us know it all. And even if we did, it's pretty difficult to transfer that information into a video. I'm not a big video You Tuber guy, so I don't do any editing, or use any fancy equipment when building these videos (and yes, I know it shows! LOL). I just try to share content I think enthusiasts might find useful, that they might not find elsewhere. I can tell you that if you look at my PIP and SPOUT videos, my PicoScope detects roughly 10-11 vDC of peak amplitude as well. I've never had the stuck distributor thing happen to me. I don't know if that's because the wrong type cam gear was used, but in Danner's case, I think that the car came in that way. Not sure. I've never heard or read anything from Ford talking about not unplugging the SPOUT connector while the engine is running. We do it all the time. SPOUT is just the computer taking in the raw PIP signal from the PCM, altering the timing of that signal a bit (to change the engine's timing to what the computer wants), and sending that signal out to the module. If the module doesn't receive that signal, it uses the PIP signal (a constant 10 BTDC) instead. I see no harm in doing this, but if you have any Ford docs that explain otherwise, I would love to read them. I have the Ford Theory and Operation and Driveability Diagnosis books for that era, and don't recall ever seeing that in any of those. By the way, they're cheap on Ebay and it's factory training from the era. I highly recommend grabbing those.
Man this was a life saver. Could not figure out why my turbo car started running like shit gradually turning into a no start situation. I fought for 3 days chasing my tail and I watched this video- BOOM found out tfi was bad (i ohmd it out and it spec'd out good. Had no pulse on negative wire, replaced tfi and she is mint again.
I wanted to ask your opinion on something, can these modules affect idle? lets say you have a really nice OEM module versus the china crap,could you notice any improvement by swapping them out if you are having issues? Ive been stranded before because of these damn things but i was under the impression they are either good or bad, no in between, guess Ive been wrong?
I've seen modules fail in different ways. Some break up at WOT. Some won't start. Some will idle poorly. So there doesn't seem to be any specific issue you can correlate to the module failing. Without a scope, all I can say is if you have unexplained misfiring or a no-start, it could be the module. Only with a scope on PIP, SPOUT, and the Coil Control wire can you really see that the module is being told to fire, and then doesn't. No other tool is fast enough to catch single misfire events.
UPDATE: When wiring a Holley Terminator X. Do not just splice into the factory coil wires. The 22K resistor will keep the coil from firing. Thanks for sharing this information. I appreciate the good clear explanation. Teachers are more valuable than inventors. People forget that.
The 22k resistor should just insulate the tachometer from the flyback voltage the coil creates when you shut it off. It shouldn't interfere with coil operation, because that resistor is between the TFI module and the tach, not the TFI module and the coil.
@@Pontisteve The resistor was in the wrong place. That was my fault. I’ve asked a couple “Super Mechanics” why a resistor would be in the coil wiring. They had no clue… I find that funny. Also, Thanks again!
So basically, one would be safe to assume a bad coil if it is pulsing but still not providing spark out of the coil to a spark tester? You mentioned that it pulsing indicates coil control, and that rules out the TFI module. Does this coil control rule out the pip sensor as well in a crank, no spark scenario, or only the TFI module?
If you have coil control (ground pulse) from the TFI module, then you're not worried about the PIP Sensor signal or the TFI module. If you also have Injector pulse, then you aren't worried about the PCM. But that should be checked, because the TFI module can fire the coil with just a PIP signal, even without a computer installed. The coil still needs to be checked for power coming in on the red wire. That same power is what is showing up as a lighted test light on the coil control wire, as shown in this video. If you have power on the red wire constantly during cranking, and coil control on the negative side, then the coil should be producing sparks. Check that the coil wire to the cap has a spark in it during cranking, using an online spark tester, or an HEI spark tester. If no spark despite good coil power and good coil control, then the coil is bad.
Great video drag radial performance, one simple question, where is the test ligth connected? To the battery positive or ground? Thank you im a new suscriber to you channel,cheers from ontario ca
The test light checks for the opposite of what it's connected to. So if it's connected to batt +, then any ground you touch will light the light. And vice versa. For coil testing, coil positive would be checked by connecting the test light to batt negative. For testing coil control (a ground pulse from the ignition module), you would hook the test light to battery positive.
Great information. I have power to red wire with key on but I don’t have any power on the tan wire at all. Not sure if that is faulty wiring or faulty coil? Thanks for the help
The coil inside is basically one wire, coiled around an iron core. Every wire has 2 ends. When the coil is not grounded, power basically just goes in one end and comes out the other. So 12v in and 12v out. It's not until you power one end and ground the other that the coil charges. Which means you should have 12v on coil negative, until the ignition module grounds that tan wire. If you don't, test it again with the tan wire disconnected, or ohm test the unplugged coil on those two terminals, to make sure the coil primary windings aren't broken and open.
You Do want to use an LED lamp, it turns on and off immediately unlike an incandescent lamp that retains its glow after power is removed. An LED. Will produce much more pronounced flickering and add almost no load to your circuit.
While I agree with your description of an LED light being an effective tool for seeing signals like injector pulse and other fast signals, you'll likely fry the electronics in an LED test light if using it on a coil. The flyback voltage spikes from a coil can be in excess of 100 volts. Leave the LED test light in your tool box when testing ignition coils like this one. Now if it's a 3-wire (or more) COP coil on a newer vehicle that has power, ground, and a 5v turn-on signal and not a load-carrying signal, then the LED test light would be fine for testing that signal.
Glad you liked it. I just realized this is how to test for coil control, but doesn't test coil strength. For that, you need a spark to jump a gap. One of my other videos show that.
Going through all your videos trying to figure out whats going on why my fox I bought a month ago lol. I have spent countless hours trying to figure it out. Wish I could show you the video of what it is doing haha. Will check the ignition switch tomorrow like you said. I think I have it narrowed down to either a bad ecu, or bad wire pwr side of the coil, or a bad alternator even though its a brand new 95 amp from LMR. Checking all 3 tomorrow. Love your content! I have fixed a ton of stuff on the car already from yours and other videos just like yours! Thanks!
Got an odd situation. 88 Bronco wont start, no spark. If I take the circuit tester and ground it, then insert the probe into the left side wire, it lights up like in the video and then I can start the truck. I can then test the second wire and watch it flicker I can start and stop the engine but when I run it about a minute later it dies. Then I no longer have any spark until I do the procedure one more more time.
Those things don't seem related. The side of the coil with the red wire should be hot at all times with key on. Basically battery voltage should be present. Use a voltmeter, ONLY on the coil power side that has the red wire. That power comes from the common 12v power circuit, or PCM relay. It common feeds almost everything, including the injectors. Touching that with a test light has no effect on running, unless the terminal is loose and pushing on it makes a good connection again. Remove the coil connector, and replace it if it's in bad shape. Inspect the coil terminals, male and female. It's also possible the coil itself has a bad connection internally, or that the module is losing power. Use a voltmeter or scope to make sure you're not losing power to the coil. Another way to prove that would be to securely jumper power to the hot side of the coil (only when the key is on!!!), and see if the stalling goes away.
@@dragradialperformance3540 Yah its odd. It will only start running if I ground that wire but not if I just insert the probe un grounded. Also I just have to touch it once so the light lights up and remove it and then the engine will start. Guess will do more testing and maybe try new coil/tfi if connectors look good.
@@karmakoma9743 sounds like a connector problem to me. And those are not weatherproof connectors, so they can corrode. Inspect the connections or r place the coil connector. It's also possible it's the connection inside the coil, but you should be able to figure that out just by playing with the connector. Worst case scenario is a new Motorcraft coil and a pigtail. I would probably try the pigtail first though.
Hey brother, hopefully you're still answering questions. My 91 GT has an issue I haven't seen anywhere. My cylinder 2 wire shows it sparks roughly half as often as all the other wires. I swapped wires to see if it was a bad wire, but the issue persists. The cap and rotor were replaced, same issue. My car is sluggish and sounds a bit rough. It does fire right up and doesn't stall. I checked compression and it is good. Could it be a bad TFI?
It doesn't really sound like a bad TFI to me if the other 7 cylinders fire fine. I've not seen this issue before. Are you sure that's what's happening? The TFI module fires the coil every time it gets either a PIP signal from the pickup coil in the distributor, or a SPOUT signal from the PCM (if the SPOUT connector is plugged in). Try that test with the SPOUT connector plugged in, and also unplugged. If it's a PCM issue, you'll have all 8 sparks if the SPOUT connector is unplugged. If it's not a PCM issue, it's probably an issue with the stator inside the distributor. It has 8 teeth, one skinny and the rest wide. Make sure not of them are missing or bent. Also make sure the cap points look fine.
The power wire to the coil should have a constant 12v any time the key is on. Engine cranking or running, or even just with the key on, that coil should be getting power. So a test light (hooked to a good ground) with its tip touching the power terminal of the coil should always have a bright light when the key is on. If that light goes out, either the test light tip is no longer touching the coil positive terminal, or you have a voltage drop on the power wire somewhere. That coil gets it's power from the ignition switch, which means high amperage is flowing thru the ignition switch contacts. Which means those contacts can corroded and fail over time. So a bad ignition switch could cause a voltage drop across its coil contacts. Also, the plastic ignition switch harness connector gets brittle with age, and may not be pushing the coil power wire terminals into the ignition switch terminals, failing to fully seat them and make good contact.
@@dragradialperformance3540 idk if this helps with anything, but I did notice the #18 fuse was popped. Controls idle air tracking, tach, cooling fans, restart choke.. thanks again for the help.
Hello thank you for the amazing video! I may be a little confused but correct me if I’m wrong, if both lights are on and the ground side flickers but no start then it’s my ignition coil and if there’s no light on both wires or it’s a solid light for both wires the control module is bad?
The red/light green wire should have a constant 12 volts on it when the key is on. This is the power side, and is constant hot. The other wire is the control wire. It's how the module controls the coil. The module grounds the coil for a few thousandths of a second. When it quits grounding it, the spark occurs. When the coil is not being charged, the 12v winds thru the coil and essentially shows up on both sides of the coil as a constant hot (light on). When the module grounds the coil, it very briefly drops the voltage on that light (5 thousandths of a second). That's what causes the flicker. There is a tiny amount of flicker caused by the starter drawing a bunch of amperage every time a piston comes up against compression. But there is a more pronounced flicker when the module is actually grounding the coil, or pulsing it. If the ground/control side of the coil flickers strongly, the module is grounding the coil and the coil SHOULD fire the spark. If the flicker is very light or not at all, then the module is not turning the coil on. It's best to just watch the video a few times and see what that difference between a normal starter flicker and a coil control looks like.
So I tested the red/green wire that is supposed to have 12v even when cranking I had my brother crank the car over and lost all power to the wire light went out completely when I test the green/yellow wire it has a very faint light just getting the light bulb hot but not lighting it. What would cause this and how can I fix it?
The red/light green wire should have 12v on it any time the key is on. This comes from the ignition switch (in the START or RUN position, then goes thru Fuse Link N (that may vary depending on what year car it is), and then it goes to a splice, which goes to both the ignition coil and the EEC power relay. Test this wire with an incandescent test light that's grounded to battery negative. This light should remain bright at all times, even when cranking. If not, find out why. Maybe you have a half melted fusible link. The other wire will have a ground pulse on it during cranking. When not cranking, 12v will come from the red wire, thru the coil windings, and out the other side onto the tan/yellow wire (or whatever color your coil ground wire is). If you don't have power on the red/light green wire, then you wouldn't see that power coming thru the windings of a coil when the key is on and engine is off, indicating the red wire doesn't have power.
Would this same method work on a 1988 Lincoln Town Car? It's the low output 5.0 EFI. I'm having ignition issues and I've pretty much narrowed it down to the coil area
Yes, it's the same EFI. This video shows you how to determine if the coil is being TOLD to turn on or not, but this video does not cover how STRONG the coil is. To test for coil strength, remove a plug wire and hold the incandescent (NOT LED!) test light about 1/4 inch away from the tip of the plug wire. As someone cranks the engine, slowly pull that test light further away from the tip of the plug wire. A healthy coil will easily jump a 3/4" gap with a blue/purple spark, where a weak coil will only jump maybe a 1/4 inch gap with a yellow spark and won't jump a larger gap.
My car is a 1986 ford mustang gt 5.0 I already changed the distrubtor & the ignition coil when we go to crank the car the yellow and green wire doesn’t have a pulse the light completly shuts off out of the incandescent test light and I’m getting no spark to the distributor please help me
Try unplugging the SPOUT connector. That takes the PCM out of the equation, and the ignition module fires the coil based solely on the PIP signal. See if it starts that way. If not, you'll have to check the PIP signal, preferably with an LED test light. I believe I have a video showing that. It's the top wire on your ignition module connector. Also, try unplugging the coil and hooking a test light to battery positive, then touching the yellow/green wire (key on). See if it lights the test light (by providing a ground to it, since it's already hooked up to 12v power). If the light lights up, there may be a short to ground in that coil ground wire. If so, it would energize the coil non-stop, and blow up every coil you install.
I never test a coil with an ohmmeter. If the coil is bad enough, an ohmmeter could catch it. But if the ohmmeter says the coil is perfectly within specs, that doesn't mean the coil is good. The reason is the coil heats up a lot when actually being used. And so while the ohm tests may be accurate when the coil is cold, the coil could quickly warm up and no longer be any good. An ohmmeter is just not a good test for coils. Instead, check for constant power on the red wire, under a small load. And check for ground pulse as shown in this video. Then load test the output of the coil by slowly increasing the gap of your spark tester. A good coil will fire a bluish purple spark over an inch. A weak coil will be a yellow spark that can't go much more than 1/2". A bad coil won't fire at all.
@@dragradialperformance3540 sorry meant the connector positive to the distributor coming from engine harness . The negative on my distributor completely fryed , so when probing the positive pin 1 and 5 I got 47 ohms with the distributor disconnected on run command from ignition switch
@@raulh802 Do I understand it that you're ohming power wires? There's just no reason to, and whenever you ohm something, it has to be disconnected. Ohming wires and coils is nearly worthless (except airbag wiring, or when checking for a short to ground). The ohm meter is best used for measuring resistance in solenoids. For everything else, stick with measuring voltage. Or in some cases, amperage. If you're saying the negative WIRE going from the TFI module to the coil has literally fried, then it's shorting straight to power some how. That could be a dead shorted coil, or a short to power in the coil control wire. When you say pin 5, can I assume that means you're measuring stuff at the TFI module connector? Again, stick with voltage, or pulse testing.
@@dragradialperformance3540 The plug that connects into the distrubutor is what i was checking. it comes off the injector harness and has a radio supression capicitor on the same electrical point. That female plug has 7 pins pin 1 is power to that pin along with coil positive , pin 5 ground and tfi module. My module is in a remote area not like the fox. With the engine off and checking resistance fom pin 1 to ground it has resistance of 47 ohms almost as if it was shorting. being that the ground wire to the distrubutor is smaller gauge , i thought that is wahy it would burn up before the thicker red wire. I was trying to find the source of the ground fault.
I was hoping to see how to test the coil like your title said. I was hoping to see what the voltage coming out of the coil was. Your video is amazing though. Don't get me wrong. I just was trying how to find the voltage of the spark coming out.
The only way to determine the voltage coming out of the coil would be to use a digital storage oscilloscope and an attenuator. You can see the coil voltage waveform here... ua-cam.com/video/lhjn4F63jVI/v-deo.html
Good day. On my ignition module I have the light on the positive but when I turn the key switch to the run position it loses the power but I still have power on the ground and it does flicker when I turn the car over like in the video. Is the my ignition module bad?
There may be two positives on the ignition module you have to check. One for start (crank), one for run. So be aware of that. I believe the 3rd one down is start power, and the 4th one down is run power. The bottom one is ground. You should only have a lit test light on the ground terminal if your test light cable is attached to battery positive. If attached to battery negative, the test light should not light on the ground wire.
So I'm deal with an 87 cougar with R/LG coming from positive on coil, and 2 G/Y on negative side. One G/Y goes to 22k resistor which I'm assuming goes to pin 4 on EEC, and G/Y wire to TFI module. I guess the other G/Y wire goes to Tach?
The coil gets power all the time on the red/light green wire (if the key is on). The computer grounds the coil for just a few thousandths of a second when it wants the coil to charge, and quits grounding it when it wants the coil to discharge (fire). The PCM, or the ignition module itself if SPOUT is unplugged, decides when to fire the coil. When it wants to fire the coil, the ignition module sends the ground signal to the coil. A copy of that signal runs to the tachometer, to display engine RPM and to the PCM. It runs to the PCM thru a 22k ohm resistor, presumably to prevent the voltage spikes caused by turning the coil off from damaging the PCM. In any event, the ignition module is the source of this ground signal. So that ignition module is sending ground to the coil, the tach, and the PCM (thru a resistor).
@@dragradialperformance3540 thanks for the reply man. Another thing is, I'm testing for spark with distributor out, but grounded by jumper cable to good ground on car. The only time I get a ground is if I'm rubbing the distributor on something but I'm not getting constant ground, unless like I said I move it around but that's even still a fraction of a second will it ground.
@@jacobkmiller That's exactly what is supposed to happen. Every time you turn the distributor gear 1/8 of a turn, you will get the coil to fire. And an injector too. And the fuel pump will kick on. So if the distributor is out and you rotate the gear/shaft, you'll hear the pump run, the coil will fire, and an injector will fire for every 1/8 turn. If you have that, there is nothing wrong with the ignition module or PIP sensor. The PIP sensor tells the PCM where the engine is in it's rotation. The PCM then decides when to fire the coils and injectors based on that information, and sends the signal to the ignition module (SPOUT) to fire the coil. The module then fires the coil by grounding it briefly.
Have a 88 Fox GT 5.0 Convertible, I live in SE FL and car is garaged. I'm having starter issues... Car for the most parts starts right up when cold (remember I am in FL - so not too cold) when I run the car for approximately 1/2 hour and then stop and shut off car - say for gas or store and then return to start the car, it almost doesn't want to crank over?? Just a weak partial starter crank. I've replaced the starter (first with new SVO starter (did not help) then with brand new OEM), but still did not solve the issue (same symptom). Also replaced Solenoid (on fender) too. Brand new battery & leads also. Have to make several attempts to get starter to turn over to start engine. Once I get a decent short crank of starter engine fires right up and has no issues (runs very smooth). Any suggestions??? Car has 83k original easy miles (no modifications - all original - never abused) and looks showroom (Auto Trans by the way).
First, do a voltage drop test on both battery cables. So connect red lead to one end of a battery cable, and black lead to the other end of battery cable. The meter tells you the voltage drop in this scenario, so the answer is ideally 0 volts, but realistically about 0.5 volts. The circuit has to be loaded for this test, so you'll crank the engine over while someone monitors the voltage on the meter. If the voltage spikes up above 1/2 volt, that means that cable is losing voltage between it's two ends, and there is a resistance in the cable. Then switch to the negative battery cable, and test it from end to end the same way, during cranking. Again, more than 0.5 volts means there is some resistance in the cable. Next, measure battery voltage during cranking. It really shouldn't be dropping more than to about 11.8 volts. If you're under 11.5 volts, the battery is probably either weak or discharged. FYI, the starter housing is the ground, because it connects to the block. Make sure there is no corrosion or paint between the block and the starter housing. If it turns out the problem is not battery or starter or cables, the next step would be to remove the serpentine belt, and crank the engine up. If it spins over great, then one of your belt-driven accessories may be locking up so you go spin each one and see if they have abnormal drag. If the car still cranks poorly, measure voltage between the red wire and the starter housing. Whatever you have at the battery during cranking, you should also have at the red wire's terminal on the starter, between it and the starter housing, during crank. If all else fails, remove spark plugs, remove belts, and turn engine over by hand with a 1/2" ratchet. If it turns really tight, it's a motor problem.
Great video. I have a 86 mustang lx with 3.8 cfi. Batt went dead on otherwise perfect running car, I put a weak batt I had in the garage in and it still needed a boost. Boosted, fired right up, took the cables off and it started popping and banging. Hooked the cable back up, engine ran fine. Did this a couple times. Shut it off, went to start again and nothing. Saw this video so I tested the coil, no flicker. Got a new module and still no flicker on the neg side. Fuel pump runs for a minute or so but does shut off. Turns off with ign switch. So…. Hall effect in the distributor next or what do you suggest?? In the meantime I’m going to subscribe and look at your other videos to see if you answered it there. Thank you!
@@chris4k2113Yes but the problem is 50% at napa/carquest/etc are garbage new. Try a new one and also check the output of the reluctor in the distributor IF it's still not working. A blown reluctor (like I had) is a 1 in 10000 chance but happens. If you replace the TFI and it still doesn't have spark (trigger signal) grab another distributor if you have one and plug it into the harness, hold the body of the dist on a ground and give it a spin, the test light on the negative side of the coil should flicker. Even getting a junkyard distributor, if you don't have one, and try it and if it is the reluctor you can pull it out of the junkyard distributor. (and the TFI on the side of it too) All the reluctors are the same so like I did, you can swap out the reluctor and pickup with any other distributor. (I used one out of a 1988 351W in my 1986 3.8 distributor, just used the 6 cyl blade not the 8cyl one)
I have a 1988 tbird 5.0 , have good power at the coil, and good ignition control , but will crank all day but not speak until I let the key go from the start position, any idea?
Sounds like you have an ignition switch issue. Could be a bad switch, corroded switch contacts, or the wires going to the switch can have broken plastic retainer tabs and cause the wire to not really plug into the switch. Also, the ignition module gets one power source when you're running, and power on the start terminal when you're cranking. I think it fires the coil a little hotter when in start mode. Perhaps your start wire has power during cranking, but your run wire (power to the ignition module when key is in run) is missing. Find the pinout for the ignition module, and make sure you have power to the module in start, and in run.
85 Bronco 5.0 EFI, both wires have power on key o, my yellow has power but completely off when cranking, Only way i have been able to start it is when I pin ground on 2 wire coming out the tfi module. Im going crazy.
Just check the TFI diagram for your vehicle, and make sure each wire has what its supposed to have on it. Use this video to fill in any blanks on what some of the terms mean.
I have 95 mustang 5.0 , replaced distributor, ignition module, new plugs, when I start it and hold about 2000 rpm’s it cuts out misses runs like crap, I remove spout and it idles good and doesn’t cut out!! What could it be???????
When SPOUT is plugged in, the computer controls spark advance. With SPOUT removed, the car runs on a flat 10 degrees of timing IF the timing is set right, and IF the balancer hasn't spun and lost it's markings accuracy. So check timing, make sure unplugged it's at 10 BTDC and plugged in that it's somewhere between 20 and 40 (raising RPM raises timing). I'm thinking it could be a bad PCM. If you have a friend with a PCM that has the same catch code, try swapping theirs in. The scientific answer is to use an oscilloscope to measure spark advance against peak cylinder pressure (using an in--cylinder pressure transducer) to see what the PCM is actually doing to the spark timing. If it's all over the place while holding the engine at say 2500 RPM, that's not good. Also, at idle only, spark advance can be adversely affected by a dirty throttle body or idle air control motor. If the engine is struggling to maintain the desired idle speed because it isn't getting enough airflow (because of dirty or failed parts), then the engine will slow down in RPM. And the computer will respond by advancing the timing. So if you see the engine at a fixed, high spark advance at idle, like 25 to 30 degrees and fixed there, you might just need to clean your TB and IAC.
There are two basic things we're looking for. First, if it's a no-start, is the coil being turned on/off by the ignition module? Second, how big of a gap can we make the coil jump? A healthy coil can jump about a 1" gap. Let's see how yours does!
I have a 88 mustang 5.0 I'm not getting power to the coil from the red wire with green tracer on the positive side of the coil connector. I thought maybe the the wire was broken between the coil connector under the hood, to somewhere under the dash harness.i unplugged the connector under the dash and checked the wire ,its good not broken..that's far as I got,dont know what to do next.i jumped the positive coil wire left side,directly to the battery and car started..but will not start without the jumper wire.
Power comes from the battery to the starter relay, to a yellow wire, to Fuse Link A (16 gauge black), to a splice into 3 yellow wires. Two of which go to the ignition switch, giving the switch power. When you are in start or run, power comes from the ignition switch on a red/light green wire (in RUN) or a brown/pink wire (in START) to a red/light green wire splice. From there, it goes thru a 20 gauge blue fusible link (fuse link N) to connector C201, and finally to the ignition coil. I would start my test at the ignition switch. Make sure the two yellow wires coming into the switch have 12v. Then make sure the red/light green wire coming out has 12V when the key is in RUN. Make sure the brown/pink wire has 12v when the key is in the START position. If you have power here and not at the coil, suspect Fuse Link N (20 gauge blue).
On these older cars, Ford used fusible links, which is a length of wire that acts like a slow-blow fuse. This circuit has two of them inline. Finding these is more difficult than finding a fuse is. Also, on older cars like this, Ford ran high amperage power thru the ignition switch. Any time you run high amperage thru a switch (in this case, maybe 8 amps or so), the switch contacts corrode easily as the electricity jumps the switch contacts slightly before the contacts actually touch each other. This leads to corroded switch contacts, and premature switch failure. Modern cars don't do stuff like that. By using relays instead, modern cars almost eliminate ignition switches from going bad. In your car, you probably either have a bad fusible link or a bad ignition switch. To test the switch, you're just checking the two yellow wires for power coming in, and those other 2 wires already mentioned for power going out in Start or Run. If power both enters and exits the ignitions switch, that second fusible link is your likely suspect. If power doesn't get to the ignition switch, then the first fusible link is your suspect. Check the fusible links near the starter relay. They're the most likely to be in bad shape over time.
@@dragradialperformance3540 so the coil is okay. Mine is an MSD coil so the plug is switched around so I was trying the right wire when really it was on the left side when looking at it. Anyways, after checking the coil with an volt and arms metre, I believe it's okay. I took the distributor out and I spun the shaft and I got injector pulse but I still didn't get spark. Does this mean the distributor is good but the TFI module is bad?
I have an 89 GT that cold starts and runs perfectly with good throttle response and idle, then suddenly dies after about a minute. After a couple more attempts, the car will start and immediately die. When it cools down, it will run fine for a minute, and begin the same start / stall pattern. No KOER codes. No KOEO codes other than long term codes 18 and 96. 18 SPOUT I believe is from setting the timing. 96 is from my fuel pump kill switch I installed for anti theft. Fuel pressure is good at stall. Cleaned IAC, Mass Air, and throttle body. Ignition wires are good. ECU has a small amount of leakage from 2 of the 3 capacitors. Do you think it’s the TFI module overheating? ECU? What should I check?
That sounds more like a TFI module to me. I would fix the capacitors regardless. I sell the correct 3 capacitors for $15 + shipping, but you need to have someone with a microscope and experienced at capacitor replacements do the install on those. You could try any different module and see if your symptoms change. Sounds to me like the module fails when it warms up. They're quite hard to diagnose without a scope, but they're cheap enough to just go buy one and try it.
I should have said, if you have a scope, use it to diagnose the TFI module. If you don't have a scope, just go buy a TFI module and try it. Any change in the way it runs indicates you're on the right track.
Thanks, I was looking for a test of the TFI on distributor. I have power to fuel pump, fuel relay and mine sounds like yours. Will run for 20 seconds and then die. Trying to pinpoint it, Thanks
Shutting off after 20 seconds sounds like a TFI module or maybe a PIP sensor problem to me. But it could also be an O2 sensor problem, although it would run poorly first, before shutting off.
Sounds like your ignition module is not ground pulsing the coil. Check for power and ground at the ignition module, and for pulse at the PIP sensor, then call the module bad.
Igniter vs Points distributor vs HEI I have a 1990 Lincoln Town with the Windsor V8. Looking for tune-up advice, how to get the best fuel efficiency. upgrading does sound like less maintenance but questioning ROI Return On Investment? btw the car has sat for 8 years and running well on warm days. but if I don't let it warm up 20* F or colder and try to drive off after 10 min it seems rough until it gets to operating temp. also after 45 to 1hr idle to op temp. it will kill the motor most of the time when I change gears R or D. I haven't noticed during warmer days dying during gear change but I have only had it for three weeks. .
Just use factory Ford Motorcraft plugs, wires, cap, rotor, and coil. The factory stuff is good quality and works just fine. Probably better than most "performance" stuff, and certainly better than aftermarket replacement parts. Try removing and thoroughly cleaning the throttle body, and the IAC. Pay attention to how the IAC comes apart. Take yours apart slowly.
@@Pontisteve I'm guessing he meant the other wire to the coil ( not the red constant) because it can look white or yellow or tannish depending on how old it is
Thanks for the video, 1994 Mustang GT, key in run position, new coil, positive side lights up, negative side lights up but flickers/clicks and I am not turning the key to the start position. Any ideas?
When the key is on and the engine is not spinning, you should have the positive side (red wire) of the coil have 12.6v or so. The negative side of the coil should not have anything! If you switch your test light to battery positive, and touch the tip of the test light to the negative side of the coil, you should see nothing. If you see the light on solid, turn the key off right away! That means your coil is being constantly grounded, and will die a QUICK death, if it hasn't already been killed. If you are testing the negative side of the coil with that same test and you see a pulsation, then one of two things is happening: Either your PIP sensor is bad and it's intermittently sending a PIP signal to the PCM and to the ignition module, causing the module to fire the coil and POSSIBLY causing the PCM to fire an injector, OR the ignition module is bad and it's randomly firing the injector. I suppose you could also check the ignition module ground using an incandescent test light hooked to battery positive, to see if the bulb lights up bright and consistent. Bad grounds sometimes show up as flickering pulses in strange places. Last time I saw this was on a fox body, and the coil had a constant power and ground. The coil was bad because the ignition module was bad and was constantly grounding the coil. That will kill a coil in an instant. Coils are typically turned on for about 5 thousandths of a second, to charge the coil. Having it on non-stop almost certainly will overheat the coil really quickly, and kill it. You might want to also physically inspect the coil very carefully to see if it shows signs of swelling or cracking. I almost would expect that if you have a constant ground to the coil. A pulsed ground might not kill the coil. It's not a perfect test, but if you turn the key on and hear an injector clicking, then I would say the PIP sensor is bad and intermittently sending a PIP signal to the module. This could also be a PCM problem, but you could rule that out completely by unplugging the SPOUT connector and seeing if your coil negative pulsation goes away. You could also test the PIP sensor signal with an LED test light hooked up to the top wire on the ignition module, and the test light grounded to battery negative. You should not see any flashes/pulses with the key off.
Steve, Thanks, I will check this out this afternoon, just to clarify. The clicking noise is coming from the new coil I installed, not the injectors. I have also replaced the PIP with the same result. Based upon what you said if I don’t find anything I will start checking the grounds....Thanks again!!
@@briansteinbruegge3098 do all the tests you can, but bear in mind the ignition module is ultimately in charge of the coil. Unplug the SPOUT connector to eliminate the PCM from the equation, and if the grounds and PIP are good, replace the module. Remember, those modules are really worked hard. They're a high failure rate item. Although the fender-mounted 94-95 modules are far less bad than the distributor mounted ones were, due to less heat.
I know this video was posted years ago. However, when cranking the car and testing the power side aka red/green wire it loses power, but the yellow side does pulse? If I am drawing to much amperage would this point to the TFI, Starter relay, or Ignition switch?
You should never lose power to the coil with the key on. This power comes thru a fusible link (probably at the starter relay), thru the ignition switch, and to the coil and ignition module. Unlike a fuse that blows if there is too many amps being drawn, a fusible link slowly burns. Over amperage can happen if the coil is being grounded non stop (bad ign module or short to ground in coil control wire), if the coil has too little resistance in it's primary windings (ohm test an unplugged coil between coil + and -), or corrosion/contact issues in the ignition switch. Or any voltage drop in the coil power wire anywhere. My money would be on corroded ignition switch contacts. But you need to test that coil power wire with a voltmeter, and keep working backwards up the wire until you find where your voltage drop occurs.
The coil is likely being grounded constantly. Either a short to ground in the coil negative wire, or a bad ignition module that is providing a constant ground. This will kill the coil quickly, if it hasn't already. If this condition exists, the car won't run either.
I have a 95 mustang 5.0 I’m working to get going for the step so. So far I’ve found a bad pcu, replaced the ignition control module, distributor, and coil. I’ve also replaced a few other things on the egr system. With replacing all of that on the ignition system I still am not getting any pulse to my coil from the tfi module. I have a ignition diagnostic circuit code when I pull from the obd1. I’ve checked all wiring and haven’t found any grounded or shorted. Continuity is good from pcm to tfi and then to the coil. Any idea what else could be causing this? Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!
You need to use an LED test light to test the PIP signal wire at the ignition module. During cranking, this light should blink as you crank. If you don't have this signal, you have to make sure there is 12v and ground going to the module. If you have a pulse here, you should have spark. Cranking the engine should cause a PIP signal, which should make the fuel pump run for at least 1 second. If you have PIP signal, then the TFI module should send a control signal to the coil. The coil should then fire, if it's also getting 12v to the coil.
We don't show that because it's not a very accurate test. Coil resistance can test fine on a cold coil, and go to pot on a hot coil very quickly. While a bad coil might be able to be seen using a resistance test if the coil is really bad, in most cases the coil will test good and yet be bad when it gets warm. A much better indicator of coil performance is to make the coil jump an adjustable gap.
If you use an incandescent test light, or an inline spark tester with adjustable gap like the Lisle tool, you can slowly increase the gap that the spark jumps from 1/4" to about 1". The spark should easily jump the gap that far, and the spark should be a bluish purple. A consistently yellow spark that struggles to jump a 3/4 to 1" gap is a weak coil. Confirm the coil has a good 12v power going to it, and replace the coil with a genuine Motorcraft.
I’m having a hard time with getting my 93 mustang to fire up, i tried this test on my car and the red wire on the left of the coil connector has voltage with the key in the run position but when I turn the key to crank it looses power, what do you think would cause this? The brown or tan wire on the right side of the coil connector flickers from the pulse of the TFI just like yours did in the video.
First thing I would do is have someone help you to hold light pressure on the test light, to make sure it isn't losing connection during the cranking test, when checking for power. I suspect this is the case, because in order to see any light on the test light in the tan wire, that power would have had to come thru the red wire, wind thru the coil windings, and come out on the tan wire. The ignition module pulses a ground signal to the tan coil wire. But without there being any 12v on the red wire, there would be nothing to light the light up when the test light is on the tan wire.
I know its been a while, im not getting any flicker from the ground side of the coil. However there is current going to the coil. So does that mean my tfi module is not grounding the coil?
Do you mean there is voltage going to the coil? Because current can't flow unless you have both power and ground to the coil. Anyway, if the coil has power on the red wire and the test light doesn't flicker at all while you're cranking the engine, then the coil isn't being told to fire. That could be a bad PIP sensor or a bad ignition module. Your next step would be to backprobe the PIP sensor signal wire at the ignition module, which I believe is the top wire on the ignition module if I remember correctly. Use an LED test light for that test, and crank the engine to see if the PIP sensor produces a signal. If it doesn't, it's bad. If it does, the module is bad.
@@Pontisteve i got pressure to the injectors, got a typhoon intake for a super deal had a leak at the back needed a new gasket had to pop it off to get a new gasket on there rails had good pressure, havent confirmed spark plug is getting spark by pulling a plug n tryin to start
Why is it that when I probe the coil on my 1995 in key on engine off, the test light doesn't light up. When I check if the coil has spark, it has spark.
The coil should have power all the time, key on engine off, on the red wire. The coil only has ground for a few thousandths of a second at a time on the other wire. If you're checking the red wire with a test light, make sure the test light is grounded to a good ground, like a strut tower bolt. If you're checking for coil control (pulse), you would hook the test light to battery positive, and touch the tip to coil negative (the non-red wire) and watch the test light carefully while someone cranks the engine over. Be sure to use only an incandescent test light for this, not an LED test light. You'll burn an LED light up. Also, make sure you test your test light by checking it using battery positive and negative, to make sure the test light bulb is good and functioning. If the light tests good, double check your connections for the test.
@@dragradialperformance3540 Would and MSD 6AL change this? The coil sparks when I jump the "magnetic distributor" plug that hangs off the wiring harness.
@@WombRaider7878 The 2-wire SPOUT connector located near the distributor just switches the ignition module from firing directly off the PIP sensor in the distributor, to firing off the PCM's command which in turn gets it's idea of when to fire from the PIP sensor, then alters that a bit. If you're talking about the 3-wire magnetic pickup inside the distributor, any time a piece of metal comes between the two walls of the sensor, it will fire the coil.
@@dragradialperformance3540 there is a plug coming off my msd 6al. I jumped that and the coil did spark. I tested the fuel pressure and I get 35 with KOEO. Which is odd considering the pump is a 50/70. I checked the plugs. They were fuel fouled, but that may be because of me cranking on it. It didn't start with starting fluid. I am at my wits end with what this could be on my car.
I have problem with my ford 1985 crowin Victoria I adjusted timing at 10° in idle as recommended The problem is when I connect timing advance connector the engine goes misfire and bad running when I disconnect it the engine running smoothly
There's only 4 reasons I can think of why that might happen. 1) there is a problem with the SPOUT wire, between the SPOUT connector and the PCM. 2) The PCM is either bad, or has bad capacitors in it, or has a custom tune in it that is awful. 3) The ignition module is bad. 4) The balancer is bad, and your timing isn't really what the marks say it is.
Drag Radial Performance thanks for reply actually I have changed all this stuff New module and pick up coil new distributor ,cap,rotary, spark plugs and their wires and ignition coil Also I changed module connector socket 🤒 this car got me head ache i tried to set timing at 10° with spout is connected in idle to see if there is different and the results is : 10° spout connected bad running engine 10° spout disconnected smoothly running and no hesitation
My voltage drops to 10.1 when trying to start. I put in the terminator x system and it needs 10.5 volts to start. What test can I do to fix this? Great video
Voltage to what? PCM, fuel pump, coil? I'm assuming coil but it's really all of the above probably. The problem is the ignition switch. These older Fords had power going from the starter, to a fusible link, thru the ignition switch, then thru another fusible link to the a splice. The splice feeds the EEC relay, which powers up nearly everything, and also to the TFI module and the coil. While there's some voltage drop in the length of all these wires and their age and corrosion, and probably some in each fusible link, the big voltage drop usually occurs at the ignition switch. Whenever you use a switch with mechanical contacts to transfer high amperage thru the switch contacts, those contacts will corrode. This is why high amperage fan switches still burn up, and why distributor cap points always have white corrosion on them. All high amperage switches corrode their contacts over time. And even though the switch contacts may be touching, they are touching through corrosion. So there's a voltage drop between the input of power to the ignition switch, and the output of power coming out of the switch and going to the coil. First, make sure all your battery cables and terminals are in great shape. Then make sure any fusible links aren't partially burnt or swollen. Then measure the voltage drop, or the voltage coming in and going out of the ignition switch. There are two large yellow wires coming into the switch bringing the power in, and ignition switch pin 12 is the start voltage coming out, and pin 11 is the run voltage coming out of the ignition switch. If you don't have the same amount of voltage coming (during crank or run) as you do going out (during crank or run), then your switch is dropping some voltage across the switch contacts. A new ignition switch might be a nice fix, but ideally we would like to re-engineer that a bit. Use the coil power wire as a relay control wire, and have new short wires coming into the relay from a fused power source, and going out to the coil. Those skirted Hella 30/40A relays and pigtails are perfect for this. You could end up with maybe 0.1v drop instead of 1 to 3 volt drop to the coil. If you think about it, this is actually a performance trick too because it guarantees the coil has max input voltage, and therefore more output voltage. The same trick could be applied to the fuel pump.
Drag Radial Performance WOW that is a lot. I put in the terminator x system and all this started. I will check the ignition switch and see what is going on there. Thanks for the quick response. Also, my 87 is a Mcarlen Mustang
My 1990 Ford F-150 has a no start after a week of starting after having the fuel lines replaced. Could my ignition module be an issue? I replaced the ignition coil last year, but the truck sat outside the shop for a year waiting for them to replace the fuel lines... I tried to test the shredder valve on the fuel rail, nothing came up.. Should fuel come up when I press the shredder valve on the fuel rail? When I took the truck in last year, I put a new fuel pressure regulator, new fuel filter, fuel pump & tank, & new ignition coil in it. The pump comes on strong. Could any of the new parts be no good from sitting, or could it be the control module has went out? Sorry if that was too much... Thanks in advance..
There should be about 39 PSI of fuel pressure in the fuel rail. If you turn the key on for a few seconds, off for a few seconds, on, off, on again to cycle the pump and build pressure, there should be 39 PSI in that rail. If there were, depressing the schrader valve would squirt fuel out rather dangerously and unmistakably. If you don't have any fuel in the rail, your pump is either not running, or blocked. Get a fuel pressure gauge. OTC makes one for about $30 shipped on Amazon that's good, and has the Ford adapter. Are you sure you can hear the pump run? It's possible the pump is wired backwards, if it's got a universal pump wiring pigtail that you have to butt connect on yourself. It's also possible that your fuel filter is totally blocked, or that your in-tank sock is blocked, or that you have a hole or leak in your nylon line inside the tank, allowing air into the line. Make sure your pump is running, and that fuel pressure is zero. Then find out where that fuel is going.
@@Pontisteve thank u! yes, the pump comes on loud, where I can tell it comes on.. So u believe the new fuel filter could have become trashed from sitting for a year? Is it possible for that to happen? Thanks again..
@@dee1380 It's unlikely, but possible. I think it's more likely that there could be air getting into the fuel pump pickup line. You should first check to make sure that there is some fresh gas in the tank, say 1 or 2 gallons. Then verify that when someone turns the key on, the pump runs. Put your ear very near the tank, and have someone else turn the key on. Make sure you can hear the pump run in the tank. If the pump runs, then you need a fuel pressure gauge that screws onto the schrader valve to verify that you have no fuel pressure. If you have none, you could try removing the fuel filter, then priming the pump by turning the key on. If fuel doesn't come flying out that fuel line towards the filter, then you know it's not making it out of the tank. Physically inspect the fuel lines for kinks or dents that could restrict flow, or for broken hoses or fittings or fuel leaks. If you can hear the pump run for sure, and you have no fuel at the fuel filter, then you must pull the tank down and check the clear plastic line going from pump to pump hat to see if it's fallen off or got a hole in it or something.
@@Pontisteve Actually, a friend of mine & myself discovered no fuel is coming from the line after the fuel filter. We took the line from the fuel filter to the engine off, & when we turned over the pump shot out fuel from the fuel really strong!! So fuel is getting through the filter. A neighbor said there is a valve between the 2 tanks on the frame that may be giving me problems. Do u have any idea what he may be talkin about? Thanks in advance..
@@dee1380 He's partly right, as far as I know. It's not a valve between two tanks, it's a selector switch in the dash on trucks that have dual tanks. The switch takes a single fuel pump power wire from the front of the truck, and determines which one of the two fuel pumps it goes to. I'm not that familiar with the actual tanks and lines setup, so you might want to check into that design. Those switches pass high amperage thru them to feed the pumps, and any time you have high amperage going thru a switch, you will have premature failure of the switch due to contact corrosion. You can actually open the switch up and repair that, or just replace the switch. The symptom would be that the fuel pump doesn't run, and it's pretty easy to remove the switch and build a jumper wire to temporarily bypass the switch entirely and run whichever one of the two pumps you want. This would be an easy way to prove out the switch. However, you said you hear the pump run. The switch problem I'm referring to is going to prevent the pump from running, not cause it to run and not build pressure... unless the voltage drop across the switch was really severe. You can test switch input and output voltage to see if this is the case. Maybe there is something to a valve of some sort. I didn't think there was any mechanical parts involved, but I'm not that familiar with the actual dual tank design.
Yes. The coil gets 12v power all the time when the key is on. When the ignition module wants to fire the coil, it grounds the coil for about 5/1000ths of a second. As soon as the ignition module quits grounding the coil, the coil will fire. It does not, and must never, have a constant ground though.
The coil gets power all the time when the key is on, from the ignition switch. It gets a ground from the ignition module. If you hook a test light up to battery positive, you can see this brief ground blink the test light as the engine is cranking. If the test light is lit all the time, you have a constant ground from the module, which will coil the ignition coil in no time. If by juice, you mean voltage, you are never going to get anything from the ignition module ground. You are getting a ground pulse from the module.
First, make sure you're on the right wire. The pulsed ground signal that fires the coil comes from the 2nd wire from the bottom of the ignition module on 86-93 5 liters. It then goes to a splice that branches off 3 ways... the coil negative, the tach, and PCM pin 4 (via a ignition suppression resistor). Pin 4 is the Ignition Diagnostic Monitor in the computer. If you have a pulsed ground coming out of that 2nd from bottom wire at the module, and you don't have a pulse at the coil (and the car is a no-spark no-start), then you should look at the other 2 branches of that wire and see if they have anything. The first would be to pull codes, and see if there is an IDM code. The PCM knows from the PIP sensor that the engine is turning, and it expects to see the coil firing. If it doesn't, it's going to throw an IDM code. Next, and easiest, look at the tach. Does the tach move up to around 2-300 RPM as the engine is turning? Most starters produce somewhere around 250 engine RPM while cranking. That will give you a clue. Also make sure your testing method is correct. You should have the test light clamped to battery positive, and the tip of the test light resting on the coil negative terminal. That's the coil harness wire that's NOT red. If you truly have a pulsed ground coming out of the module, and no pulse at the coil, then seeing if you have an IDM code or tach movement will guide you as to where you lost your signal at, before or after the ignition splice. Either way, unless your testing is inaccurate, you're looking at a wiring problem. Maybe it's a simple problem like the coil connector is broke! That happens, and the coil negative wire doesn't get pushed onto the coil terminal if it's loose in the coil connector.
@@Pontisteve Thank you for such a detailed response. Turns out , the coil negative wire coming from the ICM to the coil negative had a break somewhere. I cut and soldered a new wire to the old connectors and it fired right up but ran rough.I supposed it ran rough from me not connecting to the ECM. Thank you. I just Subscribed
@@TropicBreezeRealty No, the rough running is not related to the ECM's tach signal. The ECM just monitors the tach signal to make sure that every time the PIP sensor detects a cylinder is up to bat, that the coil fires once. It doesn't have any effect on how the car runs, just on whether it throws an IDM code. So the rough running stems from elsewhere. When you cut that wire, don't forget the one wire coming out of the module splits off into 3 wires... IDM, tach, and coil. Depending on where you cut the wire, you could be losing some of these signals. I suggest trying to find the break in the original wire, and fixing it.
@@Pontisteve when you wrote, Depending on where you cut the wire. are you referring to the resistors? the rough running was caused by the timing. Thrown off when i removed the distributor. Thanks again for all your help
@@TropicBreezeRealty The wire comes out of the module and goes to a splice, where it then branches off 3 ways. Tach, IDM, and coil. That's why I say it depends on where you cut the wire... before or after the splice, and on which leg.
i have a question for you. i did the same test as you but mine turned out with different results. the red wire will stay lit on the test light until the car is cranking the the test light turns off. the yellow wire, the test light is on and when cranking it flickers. Any chance you can point me in the right direction?
It's impossible for the yellow wire to have power if the red wire does not (unless you have some major wiring issues, which is not likely). Chances are that your test light moved when the engine began cranking, and lost contact. Have a helper crank the car while you hold the test light on the red coil wire, making sure it stays touching the coil terminal during the test. The red wire must remain hot during cranking, or the coil isn't getting power. But if the red wire is not hot, then the yellow wire cannot be hot either.
@@whitneywilliam good, that means it's good if you see it flicker on the yellow wire during cranking. Actually, it means that the control signal from the ignition module is good, and that the coil windings aren't open circuited. It doesn't mean the coil has any strength. Testing for how good the coil is, is another test entirely. This test just checks to see if it's being told to fire.
Bear in mind that you have to have a SPOUT signal coming in, to tell the module when to fire. If the SPOUT signal isn't there, the module will use the PIP signal instead (and fire the coil at 10 BTDC every time). That's why we unplug the SPOUT connector to set timing... it removes the computer control over timing, and fires the coil based on PIP at 10 BTDC. If you don't have a PIP or SPOUT signal coming in, the module won't know when to fire the coil. So before you can condemn the module, you have to make sure it has everything it needs first. And that would be power, ground, PIP and/or SPOUT signal, and probably a 12v start signal as well.
just curious....what does the test light do when the SPOUT connector is unplugged? is it the same flicker at the coil in both wires? how does it look with a MSD box installed? thanks bro
The coil flicker looks the same regardless of when the timing occurs, so SPOUT being plugged in has no effect on that. Now an MSD box is a different animal. And be very careful, an MSD box could put out 400 volts to the coil.
I have a question i recently changed my fuel system on my 92 mustang gt and now my car don't wanna start it cranks but it wont start any suggestions will be highly appreciated i think it might be the ignition module tfi.
Check your fuel pressure and make sure you have 39 PSI when you turn the key on. And makes sure that it remains very close to 39 PSI for a decent period of time, at least 30 minutes or so. If it drops to 0 PSI quickly, you have probably got a bad one-way check valve in the fuel pump. If you don't have anywhere near 39 PSI, you've probably got a pump problem. You can use my videos to learn how to test a coil, injector pulse, or PIP signal to determine why your car won't start.
There are two scenarios here. 1) Power is going into the coil positive terminal, but isn't going thru the windings and coming out the other side. This would be because of a break in the windings. You could do two things here. First, remove the coil connector and ohm the coil. It should have some resistance, but not that much. If your meter shows OL or infinite resistance, the coil windings are broke and the car will never start. You need a new coil. You could also unplug the coil connector, build a jumper wire from the 12v battery to the coil positive terminal. Then measure voltage on the negative terminal. If it still has none, the coil is bad. If it has 12v, see #2. 2) The coil could be getting grounded all the time. The coil should have 12v any time the key is on. It's the ignition module that's in charge of grounding the coil. The module only grounds the coil for a few thousandths of a second. Any more than that is going to smoke the coil. Hook a test light to battery positive, unplug the coil, and touch the test light tip to the coil negative wire (NOT the red wire). If the test light lights up, then the coil is being grounded all the time! In that scenario, either the module is bad or the wire between the module and coil negative is shorted to ground. Easiest way to tell the difference would be to unplug the ignition module, and see if the test light goes out. If it does, it's the module. If it doesn't, it's the wire is shorted to ground. Be careful not to replace a coil without doing both of these tests! I have seen it happen where the car won't start because the coil is bad. The coil went bad because the module was bad, grounding the coil constantly, which always will smoke the coil... fatally. Do NOT replace the coil until you have confirmed that it is not being constantly grounded by the ignition module when you have the key on. Otherwise, you'll be buying more coils.
Drag Radial Performance could you explain step #2 again? Should the key be on? I have a completely different issue with my car and I’m trying to work through different test to figure out my issue. If possible thank you. Nice job with the videos btw, good info....
@@kadenewman71 the ignition switch, which should be hot at all times, sends power to the coil when you turn the key to start or run. Those are actually two separate power sources that T together later, so check for power to the coil in both start and run. The switch also sends power to the ignition module (red/light green wire), and the PCM power relay. The PCM relay powers up everything, including the fuel injectors, MAF, computer, and emissions solenoids. So you can check for power going to the red wire of the injectors and see if you have power there, or the red wire on the MAF, or the red wire on the AIR pump and EGR solenoids, and the Idle Air Control motor to see if any of that stuff is getting power. If none of those are getting power, it's your ignition switch, or the power going to it. These switches are an old school design that can fail a lot with age, or switches or contacts can corrode. Also, the switches and the harness connector are plastic and get brittle, and can break and not retain the wire into the ignition switch. If you havce power to all those other things, but notg to the coil, then it's a problem with that red/light green coil wire between the coil, and the splice that the wire goes to.
The flickering IS the pulse. Although the natural surge and fall of battery voltage during cranking as the engine fights each cylinder's compression can also look a bit like a flickering as well. True coil control is a little more pronounced than voltage variations due to compression.
Hello great videos. Very knowledgeable you are. (Yoda voice lol) I have a 93 Tbird with a 5.0 HO and I have a no start. I have coil control as tested on the coil negative. I have healthy spark as seen through inline tester. I assume it has a diszzy pip signal based on flicker from test light on coil negative. Checked fuel pressure and it’s good, fuel pump relay tested good, fuel pump shut off works.EEC relay works and EEC relay terminals have power and ground. Fuel injectors did not pulse as per my noid light. Interesting note: when I turn the key to run and hear the pump prime for 2 to 3 seconds and turn key to start, she fires right up. And the there’s times when I hear pump run on indefinitely and cranks but no start or injector pulse.
Did you watch my video where the car had spark, and I had the computer completely removed? The ignition system will fire with just a PIP signal and no computer control, but the injectors are fired solely by the computer, based on the PIP signal. The coil is triggered off the PIP signal as well, so you're exactly right... nothing wrong with your PIP or module. Your problem is the computer. In particular, it's very likely the capacitors are leaking. The pump running indefinitely is a sure sign that I'm on the right track. Remove computer, and inspect capacitor legs with a bright light and magnifying glass. I sell a kit with the 3 capacitors on Ebay. Here's a link to my store: www.ebay.com/str/dragradialperformance Installing them is something best left to an electronics repair guy that has a microscope for soldering, and a desoldering gun. TV repair guys and PC motherboard repair guys have the most experience with that.
@@dragradialperformance3540 My issue seems similar to this guy. Car was running perfect and out of no where dead, and these are the codes I got. 12 14 22. So I Bought a new Distributor maf and map as the codes said. Got spark, but still no start. The fuel pump is staying on. Seeing a new ecu is only $100, would you agree I should throw more money at this or do I have a faulty Distributor. I have not tested the injectors because I did not know how to test them. I am wanting to sell this car soon, and now this. I have dumped a fortune into this car. Looks nice, but its not perfect.
@@ChannelZeroOne Whenever the fuel pump runs constantly with the engine off and key on, it's going to likely be a computer problem. Open up the PCM, and inspect the 3 teal blue capacitors very carefully for corrosion or leakage.
Use a wiring diagram to determine the source of the power to the coil, and backtrack to find out where you lost it. Usually in that era, the power comes from the ignition switch somehow. Those switches used to supply all the power to the high amperage coil thru the switch contacts, and they would burn up or corrode prematurely because of that.
The pigtail is rarely the problem. The modules are the most likely suspect. Watch this video and see how to test for coil control, and coil constant key-on power. Start there. Then test the PIP sensor next.
@@Pontisteve I put it back on the stock ignition coil and it has power to both but I pull my distributor the other day and me that's never owned a mustang didn't know to mark the spots
@@Mattys91gt I have a video on how to install a distributor and have it fire right up, and be within 2 degrees of perfect. One big trick is to set the engine to 10 BTDC mechanically when you stab the distributor, not 0 TDC.
@@Pontisteve why at 10 and not zero it's my bad it's my first mustang and first v8 I had all sport compact cars growing up I never thought of marking any
I need assurance if I can use that tool to check the ignition coil pack connector switching signals and not damage the PCM or anything else important on the 2003 DODGE CARAVAN SE?
@@AlwaysDiagnoseVehicleFirst You won't damage the PCM checking for coil control. On a Fox body, the PCM doesn't control spark, the ignition module does. So if anything, you would damage the ignition module instead. But you don't have to sorry about that either. The coil draws maybe 6 to 10 amps. An incandescent test light only draws 1/4 of one amp. An LED test light only draws about 20 milliamps. So neither test light is capable of drawing enough amperage thru the circuit to damage it. The coil draws way more than the test lights can.
@@Pontisteve Idk how to backprobe correctly sir, are you able to please film a video showing me how to backprobe a connector which in my case would be the ignition coil pack connector that has 4 wires sir?
Do you think you could explain every single tool you have there? I think you missed your fingernail clippers... What do I mean by fingernail clippers? bla bla bla
Don't hate. The difference between an incandescent test light and an LED test light is important. It can be the difference between killing a PCM and not.
![1988 Ford F150 EEC-IV , No Spark [Good Ignition Coil, Module and Distributor Pick-up]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/6UPe5f1s2ak/mqdefault.jpg)
![1988 Ford F150 EEC-IV , No Spark [Good Ignition Coil, Module and Distributor Pick-up]](/img/tr.png)
SO Helpful!!! My car died and wouldn't restart. I did the simple test you showed. My module tested bad. Went and got a new one.. Car runs as good as ever! Thank you so much!!!
If you got a module that works right the first time, you got real lucky! Some times it takes 3 or 4 modules to get a good one. Even the Ford one is now chinese junk.
What module are you talking about
@@quarterblacktravis On Ford vehicles from the 90s and i believe some 80s there is a module attached to the distributor with 2 screws,its usually grey and the big harness plug connnects to them,they are famous for going out at the worse time,there was actually a lawsuit back in the early 90s about them,once they go out you are not going anywhere, not even God could turn that car back on.
You go buy a new one and you need a special tool to get the screws out,its basically a little screwdriver that acts as a socket with really thin walls, you can get a socket and turn it down and you'll have the same tool, you have to put dielectric grease (artic paste, the stuff used on computer sinks works better) on the metal part of the module that goes against the distributor because heat kills these modules,on the 94 and 95 Mustangs that came with the 5.0 they relocated the module away from the heat,sorry for the long post, i try to cover all the bases.
@dntlss thank you I got it. It was making my car ru. Like crap. Thank you
Thank you so much my mustang has been sitting for yrs with no spark after watching your video and having some extra money I found that when testing the ground side of the coil while cranking it didn't flicker so I bought a new distributor which was only $40 more than a new module and it fired right up, I'm so pissed I didn't try earlier, now I'm saving up for a motorcraft distributor
hoping you get this comment , im well seasoned around TFI systems. Im putting a vid together just for a youtuber called scannerdanner, if he had only found your info earlier he would not have struggled with pip troubleshooting so much. He is focused heavily on "proving" the pip is bad when its been diagnosed as the pip is at fault. Fox people accepted long ago they give you little or no warning. today i will put out a vid with my 2c worth.
Paul (Scanner Danner) is excellent, and knows exactly what he's doing. I know him a little bit, and he's taught me more than a thing or two! I've probably spent more time scoping the PIP and SPOUT signals and experimenting with these 5.0's (see my PIP and SPOUT videos to see what these signals really look like to a computer). But Paul has a ton of experience and was in the field for years when these cars were still very commonly in daily use.
What you have to understand is that Paul is not trying to fix cars. He's trying to teach us all every possible way to diagnose a car. So he shows us every way to test it, from the hardest with minimal tools to the easiest with the really expensive tools. I highly recommend watching all his free videos, and then buying access to his paid videos that go more in depth and technical. They're worth every cent!
I totally agree, he puts in the hard work. However.... and i say this with all respect due him, some very basic knowledge of certain things about these systems aren't in his notes or skill sets. Take for instance on the vid , "Getting my ass kicked by an 86 mustang pt1". He is discussing the pip scope signal and skims over its readings of around 10vDC (should be around 5-7vdc). also,, in part 2 of the vid, they cant get the dizzy out of the car because its now stuck. The dizzy gear metallurgy matching the cam metallurgy seemed to be something new to him as well. I give him a pass on all this because for gods sake,, how much info can he know about these systems. I recently only learned "what actually happened" when my son's 88 Tbird dizzy got stuck. Its scary how untrustworthy the aftermarket parts makers is today. Another thing is his unplugging and plugging back in of the spout jumper. You never do that during engine operation. There are several FoMoCo internal TSB's discussing or should i say "re-iterating" that techs should not do this. He and many other do this and its putting your TFI at risk of inrush. Im going to be making this and other points on my vids on this topic.
Either way,, Your content is by far top shelf for staying focused on the issue.
@@ifixitall-24-7 I suppose none of us know it all. And even if we did, it's pretty difficult to transfer that information into a video. I'm not a big video You Tuber guy, so I don't do any editing, or use any fancy equipment when building these videos (and yes, I know it shows! LOL). I just try to share content I think enthusiasts might find useful, that they might not find elsewhere.
I can tell you that if you look at my PIP and SPOUT videos, my PicoScope detects roughly 10-11 vDC of peak amplitude as well. I've never had the stuck distributor thing happen to me. I don't know if that's because the wrong type cam gear was used, but in Danner's case, I think that the car came in that way. Not sure.
I've never heard or read anything from Ford talking about not unplugging the SPOUT connector while the engine is running. We do it all the time. SPOUT is just the computer taking in the raw PIP signal from the PCM, altering the timing of that signal a bit (to change the engine's timing to what the computer wants), and sending that signal out to the module. If the module doesn't receive that signal, it uses the PIP signal (a constant 10 BTDC) instead. I see no harm in doing this, but if you have any Ford docs that explain otherwise, I would love to read them. I have the Ford Theory and Operation and Driveability Diagnosis books for that era, and don't recall ever seeing that in any of those. By the way, they're cheap on Ebay and it's factory training from the era. I highly recommend grabbing those.
Man this was a life saver. Could not figure out why my turbo car started running like shit gradually turning into a no start situation. I fought for 3 days chasing my tail and I watched this video- BOOM found out tfi was bad (i ohmd it out and it spec'd out good. Had no pulse on negative wire, replaced tfi and she is mint again.
I wanted to ask your opinion on something, can these modules affect idle? lets say you have a really nice OEM module versus the china crap,could you notice any improvement by swapping them out if you are having issues? Ive been stranded before because of these damn things but i was under the impression they are either good or bad, no in between, guess Ive been wrong?
I've seen modules fail in different ways. Some break up at WOT. Some won't start. Some will idle poorly. So there doesn't seem to be any specific issue you can correlate to the module failing. Without a scope, all I can say is if you have unexplained misfiring or a no-start, it could be the module. Only with a scope on PIP, SPOUT, and the Coil Control wire can you really see that the module is being told to fire, and then doesn't. No other tool is fast enough to catch single misfire events.
UPDATE: When wiring a Holley Terminator X. Do not just splice into the factory coil wires. The 22K resistor will keep the coil from firing.
Thanks for sharing this information. I appreciate the good clear explanation. Teachers are more valuable than inventors. People forget that.
The 22k resistor should just insulate the tachometer from the flyback voltage the coil creates when you shut it off. It shouldn't interfere with coil operation, because that resistor is between the TFI module and the tach, not the TFI module and the coil.
@@Pontisteve The resistor was in the wrong place. That was my fault. I’ve asked a couple “Super Mechanics” why a resistor would be in the coil wiring. They had no clue… I find that funny. Also, Thanks again!
So basically, one would be safe to assume a bad coil if it is pulsing but still not providing spark out of the coil to a spark tester? You mentioned that it pulsing indicates coil control, and that rules out the TFI module. Does this coil control rule out the pip sensor as well in a crank, no spark scenario, or only the TFI module?
If you have coil control (ground pulse) from the TFI module, then you're not worried about the PIP Sensor signal or the TFI module. If you also have Injector pulse, then you aren't worried about the PCM. But that should be checked, because the TFI module can fire the coil with just a PIP signal, even without a computer installed.
The coil still needs to be checked for power coming in on the red wire. That same power is what is showing up as a lighted test light on the coil control wire, as shown in this video. If you have power on the red wire constantly during cranking, and coil control on the negative side, then the coil should be producing sparks. Check that the coil wire to the cap has a spark in it during cranking, using an online spark tester, or an HEI spark tester. If no spark despite good coil power and good coil control, then the coil is bad.
Thank you for sharing your quality knowledge!
Great video drag radial performance, one simple question, where is the test ligth connected? To the battery positive or ground? Thank you im a new suscriber to you channel,cheers from ontario ca
The test light checks for the opposite of what it's connected to. So if it's connected to batt +, then any ground you touch will light the light. And vice versa. For coil testing, coil positive would be checked by connecting the test light to batt negative. For testing coil control (a ground pulse from the ignition module), you would hook the test light to battery positive.
Thanks to your video, saved me a lot of headache, thanks
Great information. I have power to red wire with key on but I don’t have any power on the tan wire at all. Not sure if that is faulty wiring or faulty coil? Thanks for the help
The coil inside is basically one wire, coiled around an iron core. Every wire has 2 ends. When the coil is not grounded, power basically just goes in one end and comes out the other. So 12v in and 12v out. It's not until you power one end and ground the other that the coil charges.
Which means you should have 12v on coil negative, until the ignition module grounds that tan wire. If you don't, test it again with the tan wire disconnected, or ohm test the unplugged coil on those two terminals, to make sure the coil primary windings aren't broken and open.
Great video and even better explanation! Thank you.
You Do want to use an LED lamp, it turns on and off immediately unlike an incandescent lamp that retains its glow after power is removed. An LED. Will produce much more pronounced flickering and add almost no load to your circuit.
While I agree with your description of an LED light being an effective tool for seeing signals like injector pulse and other fast signals, you'll likely fry the electronics in an LED test light if using it on a coil. The flyback voltage spikes from a coil can be in excess of 100 volts. Leave the LED test light in your tool box when testing ignition coils like this one. Now if it's a 3-wire (or more) COP coil on a newer vehicle that has power, ground, and a 5v turn-on signal and not a load-carrying signal, then the LED test light would be fine for testing that signal.
Best video for checking. Coil pulse.. Thank you ...
Glad you liked it. I just realized this is how to test for coil control, but doesn't test coil strength. For that, you need a spark to jump a gap. One of my other videos show that.
Going through all your videos trying to figure out whats going on why my fox I bought a month ago lol. I have spent countless hours trying to figure it out. Wish I could show you the video of what it is doing haha. Will check the ignition switch tomorrow like you said. I think I have it narrowed down to either a bad ecu, or bad wire pwr side of the coil, or a bad alternator even though its a brand new 95 amp from LMR. Checking all 3 tomorrow. Love your content! I have fixed a ton of stuff on the car already from yours and other videos just like yours! Thanks!
Be sure to inspect the capacitors inside the PCM. If they are the original 3 teal blue capacitors, they're bad.
This and the other video were awesome! Thanks again :)
Got an odd situation. 88 Bronco wont start, no spark. If I take the circuit tester and ground it, then insert the probe into the left side wire, it lights up like in the video and then I can start the truck. I can then test the second wire and watch it flicker I can start and stop the engine but when I run it about a minute later it dies. Then I no longer have any spark until I do the procedure one more more time.
Those things don't seem related. The side of the coil with the red wire should be hot at all times with key on. Basically battery voltage should be present. Use a voltmeter, ONLY on the coil power side that has the red wire.
That power comes from the common 12v power circuit, or PCM relay. It common feeds almost everything, including the injectors. Touching that with a test light has no effect on running, unless the terminal is loose and pushing on it makes a good connection again.
Remove the coil connector, and replace it if it's in bad shape. Inspect the coil terminals, male and female. It's also possible the coil itself has a bad connection internally, or that the module is losing power. Use a voltmeter or scope to make sure you're not losing power to the coil. Another way to prove that would be to securely jumper power to the hot side of the coil (only when the key is on!!!), and see if the stalling goes away.
@@dragradialperformance3540 Yah its odd. It will only start running if I ground that wire but not if I just insert the probe un grounded. Also I just have to touch it once so the light lights up and remove it and then the engine will start. Guess will do more testing and maybe try new coil/tfi if connectors look good.
@@karmakoma9743 sounds like a connector problem to me. And those are not weatherproof connectors, so they can corrode. Inspect the connections or r place the coil connector. It's also possible it's the connection inside the coil, but you should be able to figure that out just by playing with the connector. Worst case scenario is a new Motorcraft coil and a pigtail. I would probably try the pigtail first though.
@@dragradialperformance3540 Turned out to be the coil.
Hey brother, hopefully you're still answering questions. My 91 GT has an issue I haven't seen anywhere. My cylinder 2 wire shows it sparks roughly half as often as all the other wires. I swapped wires to see if it was a bad wire, but the issue persists. The cap and rotor were replaced, same issue. My car is sluggish and sounds a bit rough. It does fire right up and doesn't stall. I checked compression and it is good. Could it be a bad TFI?
It doesn't really sound like a bad TFI to me if the other 7 cylinders fire fine. I've not seen this issue before. Are you sure that's what's happening? The TFI module fires the coil every time it gets either a PIP signal from the pickup coil in the distributor, or a SPOUT signal from the PCM (if the SPOUT connector is plugged in). Try that test with the SPOUT connector plugged in, and also unplugged. If it's a PCM issue, you'll have all 8 sparks if the SPOUT connector is unplugged. If it's not a PCM issue, it's probably an issue with the stator inside the distributor. It has 8 teeth, one skinny and the rest wide. Make sure not of them are missing or bent. Also make sure the cap points look fine.
I have a flicker on the ground wire but when I start the car on the power wire the bulb shuts off, is this a bad coil?
The power wire to the coil should have a constant 12v any time the key is on. Engine cranking or running, or even just with the key on, that coil should be getting power. So a test light (hooked to a good ground) with its tip touching the power terminal of the coil should always have a bright light when the key is on.
If that light goes out, either the test light tip is no longer touching the coil positive terminal, or you have a voltage drop on the power wire somewhere. That coil gets it's power from the ignition switch, which means high amperage is flowing thru the ignition switch contacts. Which means those contacts can corroded and fail over time. So a bad ignition switch could cause a voltage drop across its coil contacts.
Also, the plastic ignition switch harness connector gets brittle with age, and may not be pushing the coil power wire terminals into the ignition switch terminals, failing to fully seat them and make good contact.
@@dragradialperformance3540thanks a ton man. I REALLY appreciate that info. You're the man
@@dragradialperformance3540 idk if this helps with anything, but I did notice the #18 fuse was popped. Controls idle air tracking, tach, cooling fans, restart choke.. thanks again for the help.
Hello thank you for the amazing video! I may be a little confused but correct me if I’m wrong, if both lights are on and the ground side flickers but no start then it’s my ignition coil and if there’s no light on both wires or it’s a solid light for both wires the control module is bad?
The red/light green wire should have a constant 12 volts on it when the key is on. This is the power side, and is constant hot. The other wire is the control wire. It's how the module controls the coil. The module grounds the coil for a few thousandths of a second. When it quits grounding it, the spark occurs. When the coil is not being charged, the 12v winds thru the coil and essentially shows up on both sides of the coil as a constant hot (light on).
When the module grounds the coil, it very briefly drops the voltage on that light (5 thousandths of a second). That's what causes the flicker. There is a tiny amount of flicker caused by the starter drawing a bunch of amperage every time a piston comes up against compression. But there is a more pronounced flicker when the module is actually grounding the coil, or pulsing it. If the ground/control side of the coil flickers strongly, the module is grounding the coil and the coil SHOULD fire the spark. If the flicker is very light or not at all, then the module is not turning the coil on. It's best to just watch the video a few times and see what that difference between a normal starter flicker and a coil control looks like.
So I tested the red/green wire that is supposed to have 12v even when cranking I had my brother crank the car over and lost all power to the wire light went out completely when I test the green/yellow wire it has a very faint light just getting the light bulb hot but not lighting it. What would cause this and how can I fix it?
The red/light green wire should have 12v on it any time the key is on. This comes from the ignition switch (in the START or RUN position, then goes thru Fuse Link N (that may vary depending on what year car it is), and then it goes to a splice, which goes to both the ignition coil and the EEC power relay. Test this wire with an incandescent test light that's grounded to battery negative. This light should remain bright at all times, even when cranking. If not, find out why. Maybe you have a half melted fusible link.
The other wire will have a ground pulse on it during cranking. When not cranking, 12v will come from the red wire, thru the coil windings, and out the other side onto the tan/yellow wire (or whatever color your coil ground wire is). If you don't have power on the red/light green wire, then you wouldn't see that power coming thru the windings of a coil when the key is on and engine is off, indicating the red wire doesn't have power.
Would this same method work on a 1988 Lincoln Town Car? It's the low output 5.0 EFI. I'm having ignition issues and I've pretty much narrowed it down to the coil area
Yes, it's the same EFI. This video shows you how to determine if the coil is being TOLD to turn on or not, but this video does not cover how STRONG the coil is. To test for coil strength, remove a plug wire and hold the incandescent (NOT LED!) test light about 1/4 inch away from the tip of the plug wire. As someone cranks the engine, slowly pull that test light further away from the tip of the plug wire. A healthy coil will easily jump a 3/4" gap with a blue/purple spark, where a weak coil will only jump maybe a 1/4 inch gap with a yellow spark and won't jump a larger gap.
My car is a 1986 ford mustang gt 5.0 I already changed the distrubtor & the ignition coil when we go to crank the car the yellow and green wire doesn’t have a pulse the light completly shuts off out of the incandescent test light and I’m getting no spark to the distributor please help me
Try unplugging the SPOUT connector. That takes the PCM out of the equation, and the ignition module fires the coil based solely on the PIP signal. See if it starts that way.
If not, you'll have to check the PIP signal, preferably with an LED test light. I believe I have a video showing that. It's the top wire on your ignition module connector. Also, try unplugging the coil and hooking a test light to battery positive, then touching the yellow/green wire (key on). See if it lights the test light (by providing a ground to it, since it's already hooked up to 12v power). If the light lights up, there may be a short to ground in that coil ground wire. If so, it would energize the coil non-stop, and blow up every coil you install.
Is 47 ohms on the positive side to ground an issue ? Coil disconnected and probing positive connector to ground
I never test a coil with an ohmmeter. If the coil is bad enough, an ohmmeter could catch it. But if the ohmmeter says the coil is perfectly within specs, that doesn't mean the coil is good. The reason is the coil heats up a lot when actually being used. And so while the ohm tests may be accurate when the coil is cold, the coil could quickly warm up and no longer be any good. An ohmmeter is just not a good test for coils.
Instead, check for constant power on the red wire, under a small load. And check for ground pulse as shown in this video. Then load test the output of the coil by slowly increasing the gap of your spark tester. A good coil will fire a bluish purple spark over an inch. A weak coil will be a yellow spark that can't go much more than 1/2". A bad coil won't fire at all.
@@dragradialperformance3540 sorry meant the connector positive to the distributor coming from engine harness . The negative on my distributor completely fryed , so when probing the positive pin 1 and 5 I got 47 ohms with the distributor disconnected on run command from ignition switch
Only time it reads zero from pin 1 to ground is when I remove ip fuse 18 under the dash
@@raulh802 Do I understand it that you're ohming power wires? There's just no reason to, and whenever you ohm something, it has to be disconnected. Ohming wires and coils is nearly worthless (except airbag wiring, or when checking for a short to ground). The ohm meter is best used for measuring resistance in solenoids. For everything else, stick with measuring voltage. Or in some cases, amperage.
If you're saying the negative WIRE going from the TFI module to the coil has literally fried, then it's shorting straight to power some how. That could be a dead shorted coil, or a short to power in the coil control wire.
When you say pin 5, can I assume that means you're measuring stuff at the TFI module connector? Again, stick with voltage, or pulse testing.
@@dragradialperformance3540 The plug that connects into the distrubutor is what i was checking. it comes off the injector harness and has a radio supression capicitor on the same electrical point. That female plug has 7 pins pin 1 is power to that pin along with coil positive , pin 5 ground and tfi module. My module is in a remote area not like the fox. With the engine off and checking resistance fom pin 1 to ground it has resistance of 47 ohms almost as if it was shorting. being that the ground wire to the distrubutor is smaller gauge , i thought that is wahy it would burn up before the thicker red wire. I was trying to find the source of the ground fault.
I was hoping to see how to test the coil like your title said. I was hoping to see what the voltage coming out of the coil was. Your video is amazing though. Don't get me wrong. I just was trying how to find the voltage of the spark coming out.
The only way to determine the voltage coming out of the coil would be to use a digital storage oscilloscope and an attenuator. You can see the coil voltage waveform here... ua-cam.com/video/lhjn4F63jVI/v-deo.html
Good day. On my ignition module I have the light on the positive but when I turn the key switch to the run position it loses the power but I still have power on the ground and it does flicker when I turn the car over like in the video. Is the my ignition module bad?
There may be two positives on the ignition module you have to check. One for start (crank), one for run. So be aware of that. I believe the 3rd one down is start power, and the 4th one down is run power. The bottom one is ground. You should only have a lit test light on the ground terminal if your test light cable is attached to battery positive. If attached to battery negative, the test light should not light on the ground wire.
So I'm deal with an 87 cougar with R/LG coming from positive on coil, and 2 G/Y on negative side. One G/Y goes to 22k resistor which I'm assuming goes to pin 4 on EEC, and G/Y wire to TFI module. I guess the other G/Y wire goes to Tach?
The coil gets power all the time on the red/light green wire (if the key is on). The computer grounds the coil for just a few thousandths of a second when it wants the coil to charge, and quits grounding it when it wants the coil to discharge (fire). The PCM, or the ignition module itself if SPOUT is unplugged, decides when to fire the coil.
When it wants to fire the coil, the ignition module sends the ground signal to the coil. A copy of that signal runs to the tachometer, to display engine RPM and to the PCM. It runs to the PCM thru a 22k ohm resistor, presumably to prevent the voltage spikes caused by turning the coil off from damaging the PCM. In any event, the ignition module is the source of this ground signal. So that ignition module is sending ground to the coil, the tach, and the PCM (thru a resistor).
@@dragradialperformance3540 thanks for the reply man. Another thing is, I'm testing for spark with distributor out, but grounded by jumper cable to good ground on car. The only time I get a ground is if I'm rubbing the distributor on something but I'm not getting constant ground, unless like I said I move it around but that's even still a fraction of a second will it ground.
@@jacobkmiller That's exactly what is supposed to happen. Every time you turn the distributor gear 1/8 of a turn, you will get the coil to fire. And an injector too. And the fuel pump will kick on. So if the distributor is out and you rotate the gear/shaft, you'll hear the pump run, the coil will fire, and an injector will fire for every 1/8 turn. If you have that, there is nothing wrong with the ignition module or PIP sensor. The PIP sensor tells the PCM where the engine is in it's rotation. The PCM then decides when to fire the coils and injectors based on that information, and sends the signal to the ignition module (SPOUT) to fire the coil. The module then fires the coil by grounding it briefly.
Have a 88 Fox GT 5.0 Convertible, I live in SE FL and car is garaged.
I'm having starter issues... Car for the most parts starts right up when cold (remember I am in FL - so not too cold) when I run the car for approximately 1/2 hour and then stop and shut off car - say for gas or store and then return to start the car, it almost doesn't want to crank over?? Just a weak partial starter crank. I've replaced the starter (first with new SVO starter (did not help) then with brand new OEM), but still did not solve the issue (same symptom). Also replaced Solenoid (on fender) too. Brand new battery & leads also. Have to make several attempts to get starter to turn over to start engine. Once I get a decent short crank of starter engine fires right up and has no issues (runs very smooth). Any suggestions??? Car has 83k original easy miles (no modifications - all original - never abused) and looks showroom (Auto Trans by the way).
First, do a voltage drop test on both battery cables. So connect red lead to one end of a battery cable, and black lead to the other end of battery cable. The meter tells you the voltage drop in this scenario, so the answer is ideally 0 volts, but realistically about 0.5 volts. The circuit has to be loaded for this test, so you'll crank the engine over while someone monitors the voltage on the meter. If the voltage spikes up above 1/2 volt, that means that cable is losing voltage between it's two ends, and there is a resistance in the cable.
Then switch to the negative battery cable, and test it from end to end the same way, during cranking. Again, more than 0.5 volts means there is some resistance in the cable. Next, measure battery voltage during cranking. It really shouldn't be dropping more than to about 11.8 volts. If you're under 11.5 volts, the battery is probably either weak or discharged. FYI, the starter housing is the ground, because it connects to the block. Make sure there is no corrosion or paint between the block and the starter housing.
If it turns out the problem is not battery or starter or cables, the next step would be to remove the serpentine belt, and crank the engine up. If it spins over great, then one of your belt-driven accessories may be locking up so you go spin each one and see if they have abnormal drag. If the car still cranks poorly, measure voltage between the red wire and the starter housing. Whatever you have at the battery during cranking, you should also have at the red wire's terminal on the starter, between it and the starter housing, during crank.
If all else fails, remove spark plugs, remove belts, and turn engine over by hand with a 1/2" ratchet. If it turns really tight, it's a motor problem.
Great video. I have a 86 mustang lx with 3.8 cfi.
Batt went dead on otherwise perfect running car, I put a weak batt I had in the garage in and it still needed a boost. Boosted, fired right up, took the cables off and it started popping and banging. Hooked the cable back up, engine ran fine. Did this a couple times. Shut it off, went to start again and nothing. Saw this video so I tested the coil, no flicker. Got a new module and still no flicker on the neg side. Fuel pump runs for a minute or so but does shut off. Turns off with ign switch.
So…. Hall effect in the distributor next or what do you suggest??
In the meantime I’m going to subscribe and look at your other videos to see if you answered it there.
Thank you!
Same. New tfi module and no change. What next?
@@chris4k2113 Get a test light and check for power at the coil and signal at the coil. Watch my other video for instructions.
@@lowrangeinnovascotia2930 looks like I have no control pulse and therefore no spark. Rule out tfi module first?
@@chris4k2113Yes but the problem is 50% at napa/carquest/etc are garbage new. Try a new one and also check the output of the reluctor in the distributor IF it's still not working. A blown reluctor (like I had) is a 1 in 10000 chance but happens. If you replace the TFI and it still doesn't have spark (trigger signal) grab another distributor if you have one and plug it into the harness, hold the body of the dist on a ground and give it a spin, the test light on the negative side of the coil should flicker. Even getting a junkyard distributor, if you don't have one, and try it and if it is the reluctor you can pull it out of the junkyard distributor. (and the TFI on the side of it too) All the reluctors are the same so like I did, you can swap out the reluctor and pickup with any other distributor. (I used one out of a 1988 351W in my 1986 3.8 distributor, just used the 6 cyl blade not the 8cyl one)
@@lowrangeinnovascotia2930 I have an old one I can use to test after I try another tfi module. Let ya know how it goes in the next few days
I have a 1988 tbird 5.0 , have good power at the coil, and good ignition control , but will crank all day but not speak until I let the key go from the start position, any idea?
Sounds like you have an ignition switch issue. Could be a bad switch, corroded switch contacts, or the wires going to the switch can have broken plastic retainer tabs and cause the wire to not really plug into the switch. Also, the ignition module gets one power source when you're running, and power on the start terminal when you're cranking. I think it fires the coil a little hotter when in start mode. Perhaps your start wire has power during cranking, but your run wire (power to the ignition module when key is in run) is missing. Find the pinout for the ignition module, and make sure you have power to the module in start, and in run.
85 Bronco 5.0 EFI, both wires have power on key o, my yellow has power but completely off when cranking,
Only way i have been able to start it is when I pin ground on 2 wire coming out the tfi module. Im going crazy.
Just check the TFI diagram for your vehicle, and make sure each wire has what its supposed to have on it. Use this video to fill in any blanks on what some of the terms mean.
I have 95 mustang 5.0 , replaced distributor, ignition module, new plugs, when I start it and hold about 2000 rpm’s it cuts out misses runs like crap, I remove spout and it idles good and doesn’t cut out!! What could it be???????
When SPOUT is plugged in, the computer controls spark advance. With SPOUT removed, the car runs on a flat 10 degrees of timing IF the timing is set right, and IF the balancer hasn't spun and lost it's markings accuracy. So check timing, make sure unplugged it's at 10 BTDC and plugged in that it's somewhere between 20 and 40 (raising RPM raises timing). I'm thinking it could be a bad PCM. If you have a friend with a PCM that has the same catch code, try swapping theirs in.
The scientific answer is to use an oscilloscope to measure spark advance against peak cylinder pressure (using an in--cylinder pressure transducer) to see what the PCM is actually doing to the spark timing. If it's all over the place while holding the engine at say 2500 RPM, that's not good.
Also, at idle only, spark advance can be adversely affected by a dirty throttle body or idle air control motor. If the engine is struggling to maintain the desired idle speed because it isn't getting enough airflow (because of dirty or failed parts), then the engine will slow down in RPM. And the computer will respond by advancing the timing. So if you see the engine at a fixed, high spark advance at idle, like 25 to 30 degrees and fixed there, you might just need to clean your TB and IAC.
Thanks testing my new coil now 1986 F250
There are two basic things we're looking for. First, if it's a no-start, is the coil being turned on/off by the ignition module? Second, how big of a gap can we make the coil jump? A healthy coil can jump about a 1" gap. Let's see how yours does!
I have a 88 mustang 5.0 I'm not getting power to the coil from the red wire with green tracer on the positive side of the coil connector. I thought maybe the the wire was broken between the coil connector under the hood, to somewhere under the dash harness.i unplugged the connector under the dash and checked the wire ,its good not broken..that's far as I got,dont know what to do next.i jumped the positive coil wire left side,directly to the battery and car started..but will not start without the jumper wire.
Power comes from the battery to the starter relay, to a yellow wire, to Fuse Link A (16 gauge black), to a splice into 3 yellow wires. Two of which go to the ignition switch, giving the switch power. When you are in start or run, power comes from the ignition switch on a red/light green wire (in RUN) or a brown/pink wire (in START) to a red/light green wire splice. From there, it goes thru a 20 gauge blue fusible link (fuse link N) to connector C201, and finally to the ignition coil.
I would start my test at the ignition switch. Make sure the two yellow wires coming into the switch have 12v. Then make sure the red/light green wire coming out has 12V when the key is in RUN. Make sure the brown/pink wire has 12v when the key is in the START position. If you have power here and not at the coil, suspect Fuse Link N (20 gauge blue).
On these older cars, Ford used fusible links, which is a length of wire that acts like a slow-blow fuse. This circuit has two of them inline. Finding these is more difficult than finding a fuse is. Also, on older cars like this, Ford ran high amperage power thru the ignition switch. Any time you run high amperage thru a switch (in this case, maybe 8 amps or so), the switch contacts corrode easily as the electricity jumps the switch contacts slightly before the contacts actually touch each other. This leads to corroded switch contacts, and premature switch failure.
Modern cars don't do stuff like that. By using relays instead, modern cars almost eliminate ignition switches from going bad. In your car, you probably either have a bad fusible link or a bad ignition switch. To test the switch, you're just checking the two yellow wires for power coming in, and those other 2 wires already mentioned for power going out in Start or Run. If power both enters and exits the ignitions switch, that second fusible link is your likely suspect. If power doesn't get to the ignition switch, then the first fusible link is your suspect. Check the fusible links near the starter relay. They're the most likely to be in bad shape over time.
@@dragradialperformance3540 so would there be power on both sides of the fuselink if it's bad?
@@lall427 If it's bad, you probably won't have power on one side. Test it with the circuit loaded (key on). It might also look cooked, or boiled.
@@dragradialperformance3540 so the coil is okay. Mine is an MSD coil so the plug is switched around so I was trying the right wire when really it was on the left side when looking at it. Anyways, after checking the coil with an volt and arms metre, I believe it's okay. I took the distributor out and I spun the shaft and I got injector pulse but I still didn't get spark. Does this mean the distributor is good but the TFI module is bad?
I have an 89 GT that cold starts and runs perfectly with good throttle response and idle, then suddenly dies after about a minute. After a couple more attempts, the car will start and immediately die. When it cools down, it will run fine for a minute, and begin the same start / stall pattern. No KOER codes. No KOEO codes other than long term codes 18 and 96. 18 SPOUT I believe is from setting the timing. 96 is from my fuel pump kill switch I installed for anti theft. Fuel pressure is good at stall. Cleaned IAC, Mass Air, and throttle body. Ignition wires are good. ECU has a small amount of leakage from 2 of the 3 capacitors. Do you think it’s the TFI module overheating? ECU? What should I check?
That sounds more like a TFI module to me. I would fix the capacitors regardless. I sell the correct 3 capacitors for $15 + shipping, but you need to have someone with a microscope and experienced at capacitor replacements do the install on those. You could try any different module and see if your symptoms change. Sounds to me like the module fails when it warms up. They're quite hard to diagnose without a scope, but they're cheap enough to just go buy one and try it.
I should have said, if you have a scope, use it to diagnose the TFI module. If you don't have a scope, just go buy a TFI module and try it. Any change in the way it runs indicates you're on the right track.
Thanks, I was looking for a test of the TFI on distributor. I have power to fuel pump, fuel relay and mine sounds like yours. Will run for 20 seconds and then die. Trying to pinpoint it, Thanks
Shutting off after 20 seconds sounds like a TFI module or maybe a PIP sensor problem to me. But it could also be an O2 sensor problem, although it would run poorly first, before shutting off.
@@Pontisteve thanks Steve, I ordered a new Motorcraft TFI module and will start there
I have no ignition control. Both sides of the coil stay lit during crank. Still can’t get it turned on. I’m lost.
Sounds like your ignition module is not ground pulsing the coil. Check for power and ground at the ignition module, and for pulse at the PIP sensor, then call the module bad.
Igniter vs Points distributor vs HEI
I have a 1990 Lincoln Town with the Windsor V8. Looking for tune-up advice, how to get the best fuel efficiency. upgrading does sound like less maintenance but questioning ROI Return On Investment? btw the car has sat for 8 years and running well on warm days. but if I don't let it warm up 20* F or colder and try to drive off after 10 min it seems rough until it gets to operating temp. also after 45 to 1hr idle to op temp. it will kill the motor most of the time when I change gears R or D. I haven't noticed during warmer days dying during gear change but I have only had it for three weeks. .
Just use factory Ford Motorcraft plugs, wires, cap, rotor, and coil. The factory stuff is good quality and works just fine. Probably better than most "performance" stuff, and certainly better than aftermarket replacement parts.
Try removing and thoroughly cleaning the throttle body, and the IAC. Pay attention to how the IAC comes apart. Take yours apart slowly.
What does it mean when you get no light with the tan and yellow wire test light?
What tan and yellow wire?
@@Pontisteve I'm guessing he meant the other wire to the coil ( not the red constant) because it can look white or yellow or tannish depending on how old it is
Thanks for the video, 1994 Mustang GT, key in run position, new coil, positive side lights up, negative side lights up but flickers/clicks and I am not turning the key to the start position. Any ideas?
When the key is on and the engine is not spinning, you should have the positive side (red wire) of the coil have 12.6v or so. The negative side of the coil should not have anything! If you switch your test light to battery positive, and touch the tip of the test light to the negative side of the coil, you should see nothing. If you see the light on solid, turn the key off right away! That means your coil is being constantly grounded, and will die a QUICK death, if it hasn't already been killed.
If you are testing the negative side of the coil with that same test and you see a pulsation, then one of two things is happening: Either your PIP sensor is bad and it's intermittently sending a PIP signal to the PCM and to the ignition module, causing the module to fire the coil and POSSIBLY causing the PCM to fire an injector, OR the ignition module is bad and it's randomly firing the injector.
I suppose you could also check the ignition module ground using an incandescent test light hooked to battery positive, to see if the bulb lights up bright and consistent. Bad grounds sometimes show up as flickering pulses in strange places.
Last time I saw this was on a fox body, and the coil had a constant power and ground. The coil was bad because the ignition module was bad and was constantly grounding the coil. That will kill a coil in an instant. Coils are typically turned on for about 5 thousandths of a second, to charge the coil. Having it on non-stop almost certainly will overheat the coil really quickly, and kill it. You might want to also physically inspect the coil very carefully to see if it shows signs of swelling or cracking. I almost would expect that if you have a constant ground to the coil. A pulsed ground might not kill the coil.
It's not a perfect test, but if you turn the key on and hear an injector clicking, then I would say the PIP sensor is bad and intermittently sending a PIP signal to the module. This could also be a PCM problem, but you could rule that out completely by unplugging the SPOUT connector and seeing if your coil negative pulsation goes away. You could also test the PIP sensor signal with an LED test light hooked up to the top wire on the ignition module, and the test light grounded to battery negative. You should not see any flashes/pulses with the key off.
Steve, Thanks, I will check this out this afternoon, just to clarify. The clicking noise is coming from the new coil I installed, not the injectors. I have also replaced the PIP with the same result. Based upon what you said if I don’t find anything I will start checking the grounds....Thanks again!!
@@briansteinbruegge3098 do all the tests you can, but bear in mind the ignition module is ultimately in charge of the coil. Unplug the SPOUT connector to eliminate the PCM from the equation, and if the grounds and PIP are good, replace the module. Remember, those modules are really worked hard. They're a high failure rate item. Although the fender-mounted 94-95 modules are far less bad than the distributor mounted ones were, due to less heat.
I know this video was posted years ago. However, when cranking the car and testing the power side aka red/green wire it loses power, but the yellow side does pulse? If I am drawing to much amperage would this point to the TFI, Starter relay, or Ignition switch?
You should never lose power to the coil with the key on. This power comes thru a fusible link (probably at the starter relay), thru the ignition switch, and to the coil and ignition module. Unlike a fuse that blows if there is too many amps being drawn, a fusible link slowly burns.
Over amperage can happen if the coil is being grounded non stop (bad ign module or short to ground in coil control wire), if the coil has too little resistance in it's primary windings (ohm test an unplugged coil between coil + and -), or corrosion/contact issues in the ignition switch. Or any voltage drop in the coil power wire anywhere.
My money would be on corroded ignition switch contacts. But you need to test that coil power wire with a voltmeter, and keep working backwards up the wire until you find where your voltage drop occurs.
Thank you!!!!
I have a 89 converted to carb, my coil is getting hot any idea why?
The coil is likely being grounded constantly. Either a short to ground in the coil negative wire, or a bad ignition module that is providing a constant ground. This will kill the coil quickly, if it hasn't already. If this condition exists, the car won't run either.
I have a 95 mustang 5.0 I’m working to get going for the step so. So far I’ve found a bad pcu, replaced the ignition control module, distributor, and coil. I’ve also replaced a few other things on the egr system. With replacing all of that on the ignition system I still am not getting any pulse to my coil from the tfi module. I have a ignition diagnostic circuit code when I pull from the obd1. I’ve checked all wiring and haven’t found any grounded or shorted. Continuity is good from pcm to tfi and then to the coil. Any idea what else could be causing this? Thanks in advance for any help you can provide!
You need to use an LED test light to test the PIP signal wire at the ignition module. During cranking, this light should blink as you crank. If you don't have this signal, you have to make sure there is 12v and ground going to the module. If you have a pulse here, you should have spark. Cranking the engine should cause a PIP signal, which should make the fuel pump run for at least 1 second. If you have PIP signal, then the TFI module should send a control signal to the coil. The coil should then fire, if it's also getting 12v to the coil.
Would have been nice to show people how to measure resistance of coil primary and secondary. Nice video, good troubleshooting.
We don't show that because it's not a very accurate test. Coil resistance can test fine on a cold coil, and go to pot on a hot coil very quickly. While a bad coil might be able to be seen using a resistance test if the coil is really bad, in most cases the coil will test good and yet be bad when it gets warm. A much better indicator of coil performance is to make the coil jump an adjustable gap.
My coil sparks but i get a yellow spark on all pugs and also directly from the coil.
If you use an incandescent test light, or an inline spark tester with adjustable gap like the Lisle tool, you can slowly increase the gap that the spark jumps from 1/4" to about 1". The spark should easily jump the gap that far, and the spark should be a bluish purple. A consistently yellow spark that struggles to jump a 3/4 to 1" gap is a weak coil. Confirm the coil has a good 12v power going to it, and replace the coil with a genuine Motorcraft.
I’m having a hard time with getting my 93 mustang to fire up, i tried this test on my car and the red wire on the left of the coil connector has voltage with the key in the run position but when I turn the key to crank it looses power, what do you think would cause this? The brown or tan wire on the right side of the coil connector flickers from the pulse of the TFI just like yours did in the video.
First thing I would do is have someone help you to hold light pressure on the test light, to make sure it isn't losing connection during the cranking test, when checking for power. I suspect this is the case, because in order to see any light on the test light in the tan wire, that power would have had to come thru the red wire, wind thru the coil windings, and come out on the tan wire. The ignition module pulses a ground signal to the tan coil wire. But without there being any 12v on the red wire, there would be nothing to light the light up when the test light is on the tan wire.
Did you check the red/green wire @ the ignition switch?
I know its been a while, im not getting any flicker from the ground side of the coil. However there is current going to the coil. So does that mean my tfi module is not grounding the coil?
Do you mean there is voltage going to the coil? Because current can't flow unless you have both power and ground to the coil. Anyway, if the coil has power on the red wire and the test light doesn't flicker at all while you're cranking the engine, then the coil isn't being told to fire. That could be a bad PIP sensor or a bad ignition module. Your next step would be to backprobe the PIP sensor signal wire at the ignition module, which I believe is the top wire on the ignition module if I remember correctly. Use an LED test light for that test, and crank the engine to see if the PIP sensor produces a signal. If it doesn't, it's bad. If it does, the module is bad.
@@Pontisteve thanks ill try!
Uh oh wonder if my computer is no good or not getting power im dealin with a no start on my foxbody sounds exactly like yours when i crank mine over
You need to check for spark, injectors pulse, and fuel pressure. All while cranking the engine over.
@@Pontisteve i got pressure to the injectors, got a typhoon intake for a super deal had a leak at the back needed a new gasket had to pop it off to get a new gasket on there rails had good pressure, havent confirmed spark plug is getting spark by pulling a plug n tryin to start
Why is it that when I probe the coil on my 1995 in key on engine off, the test light doesn't light up. When I check if the coil has spark, it has spark.
The coil should have power all the time, key on engine off, on the red wire. The coil only has ground for a few thousandths of a second at a time on the other wire. If you're checking the red wire with a test light, make sure the test light is grounded to a good ground, like a strut tower bolt. If you're checking for coil control (pulse), you would hook the test light to battery positive, and touch the tip to coil negative (the non-red wire) and watch the test light carefully while someone cranks the engine over.
Be sure to use only an incandescent test light for this, not an LED test light. You'll burn an LED light up. Also, make sure you test your test light by checking it using battery positive and negative, to make sure the test light bulb is good and functioning. If the light tests good, double check your connections for the test.
@@dragradialperformance3540 Would and MSD 6AL change this? The coil sparks when I jump the "magnetic distributor" plug that hangs off the wiring harness.
@@WombRaider7878 The 2-wire SPOUT connector located near the distributor just switches the ignition module from firing directly off the PIP sensor in the distributor, to firing off the PCM's command which in turn gets it's idea of when to fire from the PIP sensor, then alters that a bit.
If you're talking about the 3-wire magnetic pickup inside the distributor, any time a piece of metal comes between the two walls of the sensor, it will fire the coil.
@@dragradialperformance3540 there is a plug coming off my msd 6al. I jumped that and the coil did spark. I tested the fuel pressure and I get 35 with KOEO. Which is odd considering the pump is a 50/70.
I checked the plugs. They were fuel fouled, but that may be because of me cranking on it. It didn't start with starting fluid.
I am at my wits end with what this could be on my car.
Doesn’t get any better explained than this.
I have problem with my ford 1985 crowin Victoria
I adjusted timing at 10° in idle as recommended
The problem is when I connect timing advance connector the engine goes misfire and bad running when I disconnect it the engine running smoothly
There's only 4 reasons I can think of why that might happen. 1) there is a problem with the SPOUT wire, between the SPOUT connector and the PCM. 2) The PCM is either bad, or has bad capacitors in it, or has a custom tune in it that is awful. 3) The ignition module is bad. 4) The balancer is bad, and your timing isn't really what the marks say it is.
Drag Radial Performance thanks for reply
actually I have changed all this stuff
New module and pick up coil new distributor ,cap,rotary, spark plugs and their wires and ignition coil
Also I changed module connector socket 🤒 this car got me head ache
i tried to set timing at 10° with spout is connected in idle to see if there is different and the results is :
10° spout connected bad running engine
10° spout disconnected smoothly running and no hesitation
My voltage drops to 10.1 when trying to start. I put in the terminator x system and it needs 10.5 volts to start. What test can I do to fix this? Great video
Voltage to what? PCM, fuel pump, coil? I'm assuming coil but it's really all of the above probably.
The problem is the ignition switch. These older Fords had power going from the starter, to a fusible link, thru the ignition switch, then thru another fusible link to the a splice. The splice feeds the EEC relay, which powers up nearly everything, and also to the TFI module and the coil. While there's some voltage drop in the length of all these wires and their age and corrosion, and probably some in each fusible link, the big voltage drop usually occurs at the ignition switch.
Whenever you use a switch with mechanical contacts to transfer high amperage thru the switch contacts, those contacts will corrode. This is why high amperage fan switches still burn up, and why distributor cap points always have white corrosion on them. All high amperage switches corrode their contacts over time. And even though the switch contacts may be touching, they are touching through corrosion. So there's a voltage drop between the input of power to the ignition switch, and the output of power coming out of the switch and going to the coil.
First, make sure all your battery cables and terminals are in great shape. Then make sure any fusible links aren't partially burnt or swollen. Then measure the voltage drop, or the voltage coming in and going out of the ignition switch. There are two large yellow wires coming into the switch bringing the power in, and ignition switch pin 12 is the start voltage coming out, and pin 11 is the run voltage coming out of the ignition switch. If you don't have the same amount of voltage coming (during crank or run) as you do going out (during crank or run), then your switch is dropping some voltage across the switch contacts.
A new ignition switch might be a nice fix, but ideally we would like to re-engineer that a bit. Use the coil power wire as a relay control wire, and have new short wires coming into the relay from a fused power source, and going out to the coil. Those skirted Hella 30/40A relays and pigtails are perfect for this. You could end up with maybe 0.1v drop instead of 1 to 3 volt drop to the coil. If you think about it, this is actually a performance trick too because it guarantees the coil has max input voltage, and therefore more output voltage. The same trick could be applied to the fuel pump.
Drag Radial Performance WOW that is a lot. I put in the terminator x system and all this started. I will check the ignition switch and see what is going on there. Thanks for the quick response. Also, my 87 is a Mcarlen Mustang
Do you have a video out on ignition fix’s?
My 1990 Ford F-150 has a no start after a week of starting after having the fuel lines replaced.
Could my ignition module be an issue? I replaced the ignition coil last year, but the truck sat outside the shop for a year waiting for them to replace the fuel lines...
I tried to test the shredder valve on the fuel rail, nothing came up..
Should fuel come up when I press the shredder valve on the fuel rail?
When I took the truck in last year, I put a new fuel pressure regulator, new fuel filter, fuel pump & tank, & new ignition coil in it.
The pump comes on strong.
Could any of the new parts be no good from sitting, or could it be the control module has went out?
Sorry if that was too much...
Thanks in advance..
There should be about 39 PSI of fuel pressure in the fuel rail. If you turn the key on for a few seconds, off for a few seconds, on, off, on again to cycle the pump and build pressure, there should be 39 PSI in that rail. If there were, depressing the schrader valve would squirt fuel out rather dangerously and unmistakably.
If you don't have any fuel in the rail, your pump is either not running, or blocked. Get a fuel pressure gauge. OTC makes one for about $30 shipped on Amazon that's good, and has the Ford adapter. Are you sure you can hear the pump run?
It's possible the pump is wired backwards, if it's got a universal pump wiring pigtail that you have to butt connect on yourself. It's also possible that your fuel filter is totally blocked, or that your in-tank sock is blocked, or that you have a hole or leak in your nylon line inside the tank, allowing air into the line. Make sure your pump is running, and that fuel pressure is zero. Then find out where that fuel is going.
@@Pontisteve thank u!
yes, the pump comes on loud, where I can tell it comes on..
So u believe the new fuel filter could have become trashed from sitting for a year?
Is it possible for that to happen?
Thanks again..
@@dee1380 It's unlikely, but possible. I think it's more likely that there could be air getting into the fuel pump pickup line. You should first check to make sure that there is some fresh gas in the tank, say 1 or 2 gallons. Then verify that when someone turns the key on, the pump runs. Put your ear very near the tank, and have someone else turn the key on. Make sure you can hear the pump run in the tank.
If the pump runs, then you need a fuel pressure gauge that screws onto the schrader valve to verify that you have no fuel pressure. If you have none, you could try removing the fuel filter, then priming the pump by turning the key on. If fuel doesn't come flying out that fuel line towards the filter, then you know it's not making it out of the tank. Physically inspect the fuel lines for kinks or dents that could restrict flow, or for broken hoses or fittings or fuel leaks.
If you can hear the pump run for sure, and you have no fuel at the fuel filter, then you must pull the tank down and check the clear plastic line going from pump to pump hat to see if it's fallen off or got a hole in it or something.
@@Pontisteve Actually, a friend of mine & myself discovered no fuel is coming from the line after the fuel filter.
We took the line from the fuel filter to the engine off, & when we turned over the pump shot out fuel from the fuel really strong!! So fuel is getting through the filter.
A neighbor said there is a valve between the 2 tanks on the frame that may be giving me problems.
Do u have any idea what he may be talkin about?
Thanks in advance..
@@dee1380 He's partly right, as far as I know. It's not a valve between two tanks, it's a selector switch in the dash on trucks that have dual tanks. The switch takes a single fuel pump power wire from the front of the truck, and determines which one of the two fuel pumps it goes to. I'm not that familiar with the actual tanks and lines setup, so you might want to check into that design.
Those switches pass high amperage thru them to feed the pumps, and any time you have high amperage going thru a switch, you will have premature failure of the switch due to contact corrosion. You can actually open the switch up and repair that, or just replace the switch. The symptom would be that the fuel pump doesn't run, and it's pretty easy to remove the switch and build a jumper wire to temporarily bypass the switch entirely and run whichever one of the two pumps you want. This would be an easy way to prove out the switch.
However, you said you hear the pump run. The switch problem I'm referring to is going to prevent the pump from running, not cause it to run and not build pressure... unless the voltage drop across the switch was really severe. You can test switch input and output voltage to see if this is the case.
Maybe there is something to a valve of some sort. I didn't think there was any mechanical parts involved, but I'm not that familiar with the actual dual tank design.
I have questions does the tan work as a ground when the car is running
Yes. The coil gets 12v power all the time when the key is on. When the ignition module wants to fire the coil, it grounds the coil for about 5/1000ths of a second. As soon as the ignition module quits grounding the coil, the coil will fire. It does not, and must never, have a constant ground though.
My car sparks but won’t turn on. I already change coil but nothing
What's going on when you have no juice on the negative side of the coil?
The coil gets power all the time when the key is on, from the ignition switch. It gets a ground from the ignition module. If you hook a test light up to battery positive, you can see this brief ground blink the test light as the engine is cranking. If the test light is lit all the time, you have a constant ground from the module, which will coil the ignition coil in no time. If by juice, you mean voltage, you are never going to get anything from the ignition module ground. You are getting a ground pulse from the module.
What if I have pulse at the ignition module but not the coil?
First, make sure you're on the right wire. The pulsed ground signal that fires the coil comes from the 2nd wire from the bottom of the ignition module on 86-93 5 liters. It then goes to a splice that branches off 3 ways... the coil negative, the tach, and PCM pin 4 (via a ignition suppression resistor). Pin 4 is the Ignition Diagnostic Monitor in the computer.
If you have a pulsed ground coming out of that 2nd from bottom wire at the module, and you don't have a pulse at the coil (and the car is a no-spark no-start), then you should look at the other 2 branches of that wire and see if they have anything. The first would be to pull codes, and see if there is an IDM code. The PCM knows from the PIP sensor that the engine is turning, and it expects to see the coil firing. If it doesn't, it's going to throw an IDM code.
Next, and easiest, look at the tach. Does the tach move up to around 2-300 RPM as the engine is turning? Most starters produce somewhere around 250 engine RPM while cranking. That will give you a clue.
Also make sure your testing method is correct. You should have the test light clamped to battery positive, and the tip of the test light resting on the coil negative terminal. That's the coil harness wire that's NOT red.
If you truly have a pulsed ground coming out of the module, and no pulse at the coil, then seeing if you have an IDM code or tach movement will guide you as to where you lost your signal at, before or after the ignition splice. Either way, unless your testing is inaccurate, you're looking at a wiring problem. Maybe it's a simple problem like the coil connector is broke! That happens, and the coil negative wire doesn't get pushed onto the coil terminal if it's loose in the coil connector.
@@Pontisteve Thank you for such a detailed response. Turns out , the coil negative wire coming from the ICM to the coil negative had a break somewhere. I cut and soldered a new wire to the old connectors and it fired right up but ran rough.I supposed it ran rough from me not connecting to the ECM. Thank you. I just Subscribed
@@TropicBreezeRealty No, the rough running is not related to the ECM's tach signal. The ECM just monitors the tach signal to make sure that every time the PIP sensor detects a cylinder is up to bat, that the coil fires once. It doesn't have any effect on how the car runs, just on whether it throws an IDM code. So the rough running stems from elsewhere.
When you cut that wire, don't forget the one wire coming out of the module splits off into 3 wires... IDM, tach, and coil. Depending on where you cut the wire, you could be losing some of these signals. I suggest trying to find the break in the original wire, and fixing it.
@@Pontisteve when you wrote, Depending on where you cut the wire. are you referring to the resistors?
the rough running was caused by the timing. Thrown off when i removed the distributor. Thanks again for all your help
@@TropicBreezeRealty The wire comes out of the module and goes to a splice, where it then branches off 3 ways. Tach, IDM, and coil. That's why I say it depends on where you cut the wire... before or after the splice, and on which leg.
i have a question for you. i did the same test as you but mine turned out with different results. the red wire will stay lit on the test light until the car is cranking the the test light turns off. the yellow wire, the test light is on and when cranking it flickers.
Any chance you can point me in the right direction?
It's impossible for the yellow wire to have power if the red wire does not (unless you have some major wiring issues, which is not likely). Chances are that your test light moved when the engine began cranking, and lost contact. Have a helper crank the car while you hold the test light on the red coil wire, making sure it stays touching the coil terminal during the test.
The red wire must remain hot during cranking, or the coil isn't getting power. But if the red wire is not hot, then the yellow wire cannot be hot either.
Drag Radial Performance thank you you were right I didn’t have a good connection. The coil tested the same as yours did
@@whitneywilliam good, that means it's good if you see it flicker on the yellow wire during cranking. Actually, it means that the control signal from the ignition module is good, and that the coil windings aren't open circuited. It doesn't mean the coil has any strength. Testing for how good the coil is, is another test entirely. This test just checks to see if it's being told to fire.
Drag Radial Performance thanks so much
@@dragradialperformance3540 This probably a really dumb question but what does it mean when there is no power at the coil ground wire?
Thanks for the info.
I did the test and it's showing a bad TFI.
Hopefully a new one will get this pig to start
Bear in mind that you have to have a SPOUT signal coming in, to tell the module when to fire. If the SPOUT signal isn't there, the module will use the PIP signal instead (and fire the coil at 10 BTDC every time). That's why we unplug the SPOUT connector to set timing... it removes the computer control over timing, and fires the coil based on PIP at 10 BTDC.
If you don't have a PIP or SPOUT signal coming in, the module won't know when to fire the coil. So before you can condemn the module, you have to make sure it has everything it needs first. And that would be power, ground, PIP and/or SPOUT signal, and probably a 12v start signal as well.
just curious....what does the test light do when the SPOUT connector is unplugged? is it the same flicker at the coil in both wires? how does it look with a MSD box installed? thanks bro
The coil flicker looks the same regardless of when the timing occurs, so SPOUT being plugged in has no effect on that. Now an MSD box is a different animal. And be very careful, an MSD box could put out 400 volts to the coil.
I have a question i recently changed my fuel system on my 92 mustang gt and now my car don't wanna start it cranks but it wont start any suggestions will be highly appreciated i think it might be the ignition module tfi.
Check your fuel pressure and make sure you have 39 PSI when you turn the key on. And makes sure that it remains very close to 39 PSI for a decent period of time, at least 30 minutes or so. If it drops to 0 PSI quickly, you have probably got a bad one-way check valve in the fuel pump. If you don't have anywhere near 39 PSI, you've probably got a pump problem.
You can use my videos to learn how to test a coil, injector pulse, or PIP signal to determine why your car won't start.
@@dragradialperformance3540 you have a number I can call
@@amdc9643 Yes, it's on my Drag Radial Performance Facebook page.
I have constant power on the hot side but nothing on the other side. What do I need?
There are two scenarios here. 1) Power is going into the coil positive terminal, but isn't going thru the windings and coming out the other side. This would be because of a break in the windings. You could do two things here. First, remove the coil connector and ohm the coil. It should have some resistance, but not that much. If your meter shows OL or infinite resistance, the coil windings are broke and the car will never start. You need a new coil. You could also unplug the coil connector, build a jumper wire from the 12v battery to the coil positive terminal. Then measure voltage on the negative terminal. If it still has none, the coil is bad. If it has 12v, see #2.
2) The coil could be getting grounded all the time. The coil should have 12v any time the key is on. It's the ignition module that's in charge of grounding the coil. The module only grounds the coil for a few thousandths of a second. Any more than that is going to smoke the coil. Hook a test light to battery positive, unplug the coil, and touch the test light tip to the coil negative wire (NOT the red wire). If the test light lights up, then the coil is being grounded all the time! In that scenario, either the module is bad or the wire between the module and coil negative is shorted to ground. Easiest way to tell the difference would be to unplug the ignition module, and see if the test light goes out. If it does, it's the module. If it doesn't, it's the wire is shorted to ground.
Be careful not to replace a coil without doing both of these tests! I have seen it happen where the car won't start because the coil is bad. The coil went bad because the module was bad, grounding the coil constantly, which always will smoke the coil... fatally. Do NOT replace the coil until you have confirmed that it is not being constantly grounded by the ignition module when you have the key on. Otherwise, you'll be buying more coils.
Which module are you talking about when I put my test light to my 2 wires and crank it they stay lit not flicker or anything on both sides
Drag Radial Performance could you explain step #2 again? Should the key be on? I have a completely different issue with my car and I’m trying to work through different test to figure out my issue. If possible thank you. Nice job with the videos btw, good info....
What if im not getting power to my coil at all
Is there a fuse for it
@@kadenewman71 the ignition switch, which should be hot at all times, sends power to the coil when you turn the key to start or run. Those are actually two separate power sources that T together later, so check for power to the coil in both start and run. The switch also sends power to the ignition module (red/light green wire), and the PCM power relay. The PCM relay powers up everything, including the fuel injectors, MAF, computer, and emissions solenoids. So you can check for power going to the red wire of the injectors and see if you have power there, or the red wire on the MAF, or the red wire on the AIR pump and EGR solenoids, and the Idle Air Control motor to see if any of that stuff is getting power.
If none of those are getting power, it's your ignition switch, or the power going to it. These switches are an old school design that can fail a lot with age, or switches or contacts can corrode. Also, the switches and the harness connector are plastic and get brittle, and can break and not retain the wire into the ignition switch.
If you havce power to all those other things, but notg to the coil, then it's a problem with that red/light green coil wire between the coil, and the splice that the wire goes to.
Ok so the cool is flickering but I’m still not getting any pulse
Coil*
The flickering IS the pulse. Although the natural surge and fall of battery voltage during cranking as the engine fights each cylinder's compression can also look a bit like a flickering as well. True coil control is a little more pronounced than voltage variations due to compression.
How to test ignition switch
Remove steering column covers. Find ignition switch. Use test light or voltmeter on the pins you want to test for power coming in, or going out.
Hello great videos. Very knowledgeable you are. (Yoda voice lol)
I have a 93 Tbird with a 5.0 HO and I have a no start. I have coil control as tested on the coil negative. I have healthy spark as seen through inline tester.
I assume it has a diszzy pip signal based on flicker from test light on coil negative.
Checked fuel pressure and it’s good, fuel pump relay tested good, fuel pump shut off works.EEC relay works and EEC relay terminals have power and ground. Fuel injectors did not pulse as per my noid light.
Interesting note: when I turn the key to run and hear the pump prime for 2 to 3 seconds and turn key to start, she fires right up.
And the there’s times when I hear pump run on indefinitely and cranks but no start or injector pulse.
Did you watch my video where the car had spark, and I had the computer completely removed? The ignition system will fire with just a PIP signal and no computer control, but the injectors are fired solely by the computer, based on the PIP signal. The coil is triggered off the PIP signal as well, so you're exactly right... nothing wrong with your PIP or module.
Your problem is the computer. In particular, it's very likely the capacitors are leaking. The pump running indefinitely is a sure sign that I'm on the right track. Remove computer, and inspect capacitor legs with a bright light and magnifying glass. I sell a kit with the 3 capacitors on Ebay. Here's a link to my store:
www.ebay.com/str/dragradialperformance
Installing them is something best left to an electronics repair guy that has a microscope for soldering, and a desoldering gun. TV repair guys and PC motherboard repair guys have the most experience with that.
@@dragradialperformance3540 My issue seems similar to this guy. Car was running perfect and out of no where dead, and these are the codes I got. 12 14 22. So I Bought a new Distributor maf and map as the codes said. Got spark, but still no start. The fuel pump is staying on. Seeing a new ecu is only $100, would you agree I should throw more money at this or do I have a faulty Distributor. I have not tested the injectors because I did not know how to test them. I am wanting to sell this car soon, and now this. I have dumped a fortune into this car. Looks nice, but its not perfect.
@@ChannelZeroOne Whenever the fuel pump runs constantly with the engine off and key on, it's going to likely be a computer problem. Open up the PCM, and inspect the 3 teal blue capacitors very carefully for corrosion or leakage.
Well done
Very very good, love it
I've got no power at all to the coil. On a 95 5.0 f150
Use a wiring diagram to determine the source of the power to the coil, and backtrack to find out where you lost it. Usually in that era, the power comes from the ignition switch somehow. Those switches used to supply all the power to the high amperage coil thru the switch contacts, and they would burn up or corrode prematurely because of that.
I got a new pigtail from lmr and it didn't help at all
The pigtail is rarely the problem. The modules are the most likely suspect. Watch this video and see how to test for coil control, and coil constant key-on power. Start there. Then test the PIP sensor next.
@@Pontisteve I put it back on the stock ignition coil and it has power to both but I pull my distributor the other day and me that's never owned a mustang didn't know to mark the spots
@@Mattys91gt I have a video on how to install a distributor and have it fire right up, and be within 2 degrees of perfect. One big trick is to set the engine to 10 BTDC mechanically when you stab the distributor, not 0 TDC.
@@Pontisteve why at 10 and not zero it's my bad it's my first mustang and first v8 I had all sport compact cars growing up I never thought of marking any
@@Pontisteve I got it running but it doesn't seem perfect I made sure it's not 180 that's been my issues I'll go watch that video
Good afternoon sir hope your day is going well! Can you help me with something please?
What is it you need help with?
I need assurance if I can use that tool to check the ignition coil pack connector switching signals and not damage the PCM or anything else important on the 2003 DODGE CARAVAN SE?
@@AlwaysDiagnoseVehicleFirst You won't damage the PCM checking for coil control. On a Fox body, the PCM doesn't control spark, the ignition module does. So if anything, you would damage the ignition module instead. But you don't have to sorry about that either. The coil draws maybe 6 to 10 amps. An incandescent test light only draws 1/4 of one amp. An LED test light only draws about 20 milliamps. So neither test light is capable of drawing enough amperage thru the circuit to damage it. The coil draws way more than the test lights can.
@@Pontisteve
The exact tool that i have is called
CEN-TECH
6/12V Circuit Tester with 5 ft. Lead from harbor freight.
@@Pontisteve Idk how to backprobe correctly sir, are you able to please film a video showing me how to backprobe a connector which in my case would be the ignition coil pack connector that has 4 wires sir?
Fantastic video!!
my test light blew out
great video! thankyou
💪💪💪💪
Rockstar!
,
Do you think you could explain every single tool you have there? I think you missed your fingernail clippers... What do I mean by fingernail clippers? bla bla bla
Don't hate. The difference between an incandescent test light and an LED test light is important. It can be the difference between killing a PCM and not.
So on the yellow wire when cranking it just dims and does not flash. Does that mean the ignition module is bad or is the distributor?
What yellow wire? What year Mustang?