Thank you Jasmine for sharing this brief yet to-the-point video that accurately summarizes the true context behind the horribly tragic Mountain Meadows Massacre. I always appreciate your short videos.
This show is not an accurate depiction of that period in time. Thank you for trying to explain the complexities of this time in our history. I appreciate it. Best answer yet.
The show was never purported to be an accurate depiction of that time period. It is Hollywood entertainment, with the setting of 1857 Utah. It is akin to "Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter." Lincoln was a true historical figure, and the story is set in a genuine time period of American history. That's about it.
@woodystube1000 well the church already has enough crazy misinformation all over the place. It doesn't need any help feeding the fires that we are crazy cult members.
@@woodystube1000 Regardless of intent, this show is being taken, and inspires feeling, as though it was completely accurate. That underlying false narrative was likely the real intention anyway. And why must Latter-day Saints simply accept and endure this kind of false narrative that inspires neighbors to slash tires, spray paint the house and bully the children? Because certain people in power are Christian Nationalist or adjacent to that evangelism and feel that the existence of Mormons is either too heretical, or is a threat to the profit margin, or both. Thus this, and future false narrative building will be endured.
@@eyes_wide_open23 it's a fictional show and never says it's historically accurate. It's like watching Harry Potter to learn about England. Watch a documentary if you want facts.
Thank you for this explanation of the fate of the "Fancher Train" at Mountain Meadows. There is more to this story. Some years later, CL Fancher passed through the area where his family had been killed, on his way to join the family cattle ranch in Merced, California. He spoke with members there and ended up not only joining the Church, but became the first District President when the Church was organized in the Central Valley. The Fancher name is still prominent in the area, and many of his descendants were active Latter-day Saints.
A little more of that history, President Young tasked my great great grandfather, Isaac B. Nash with taking the surviving children to the East to bring them to their families.
@@johnnash5061 which kids??? The majority of the children who survived were located in local Mormon homes more than two years after the incident by federal troops who were finally investigating (sort of). They took custody of the surviving children and placed them with closest relatives, most of them in Arkansas. The troops later described the condition of the children as “deplorable” and filthy, wearing only rags. They were not exactly well cared for.
Honestly, I am troubled by how so many comments on here turn around and blame the members for every bad thing that happened. All we have to go on is historical documents. We can't possibly grasp the experiences they went through. The Mountain Meadow Massacre was horrific and shouldn't have happened. We are so quick to judge their action with a degree of personal pride. We would like to believe if we had been through those experiences we would have handled it better. The truth is we will never know for sure what we would have done. Even now we can't even be honest about what we would do if we experienced something truly horrific like watching some kill your family in front of you. History is messy and hard to understand because we truly can't understand what they were thinking and why. I for one have come to understand life is hard. It is not for me to judge them for their actions. Christ is our judge and advocate with the Father. God understands each of us and will judge fairly. We are imperfect and live in a fallen world.
I'm absolutely NOT trying to make light if the tragedy, but I have yet to hear anyone take into account the ptsd/generational trauma that likely affect most (if not all) of the Utah members, and how that may have colored their understanding of and reactions to certain situations. 😔
Massacre at Mountain Meadows and Vengeance is Mine are great books that describe in detail the lead up, the massacre itself, and the aftermath. Great read for anyone interested.
Thank you for the explanation. Please explain - Battle Creek Massacre (Did Brigham Young send the Mormon militia to " put a final end to their depredations"?) - Provo River Massacre ( Did Brigham Young issue a partial extermination order of the Timpanogos Tribe ?") - Skull Valley massacre - Nephi massacre - The Squaw Fight / Grass Valley massacre - Circleville massacre - BEAR RIVER massacre
The First Presidency and other church leaders recently had a memorial for the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I think that it happened a few years back. They wanted us to remember what happened and why some of the members of the church didn't want to listen to Brigham Young. God bless the distants of those who lost their lives and the members in the area.
You really can't understand MM without first reading about Haun's Mill, Missouri, and the massacre that took place there in 1838. You also need to know about John D Lee's connection to both events. Vengeance is mine, saith John D Lee. 😢
Lindsey Hansen Park is planning more hit pieces like this. She talked about it in a recent podcast. Like a Mormon True Crimes show for Netflix. Y’all better hang on because it’s going to get worse. Know the doctrine and know your history.
History repeats itself. Former Latter-day Saints who turn against the church have often stirred up hatred towards the Latter-day Saints amongst non members by spreading false and misleading information. This has happened time and again in church history in the 1800's, and it's also a pattern that was repeated over and over in the Book of Mormon, when dissident Nephites stirred up the Lamanites to anger who then attacked the Nephites. Hopefully it won't come to violent acts against Latter-day Saints. It is ironic that this Netflix show is depicting horrible acts of violence perpetrated against others because of false information and tragic misunderstandings and yet it is spreading the same kind of false information that precipitated these horrible acts in history in the first place.
"If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed." -J. Reuben Clark, First Counselor in the First Presidency
The American Primeval series is historical fiction. The MMM was a real event, but the way it was portrayed in the film has no relation to reality. But this, however, is the truth: One week before the Indian attack, Brigham Young met with twelve of their chiefs in a war council in Salt Lake City. Young's Indian interpreter, Dimick Huntington, recorded in his journal what Young told those chiefs. Historian David Bigler wrote: "[Jacob] Hamblin and some twelve Indian chiefs on September first met with Brigham Young and his most trusted interpreter, 49-year-old Dimick Huntington, at Great Salt Lake. Taking part in this pow-wow were Kanosh, the Mormon chief of the Pahvants; Ammon, half-brother of Walker; Tutsegabit, head chief of the Piedes; Youngwuds, another Piede chieftain, and other leaders of desert bands along the Santa Clara and Virgin Rivers. Little was known of what they talked about until recently when it came to light that Huntington (apparently speaking for Young) told the chiefs that he 'gave them all the cattle that had gone to Cal[ifornia by] the south rout[e].' The gift 'made them open their eyes,' he said. But 'you have told us not to steal,' the Indians replied. 'So I have,' Huntington said, but now they have come to fight us & you for when they kill us they will kill you.' The chiefs knew what cattle he was giving them. They belonged to the Baker-Fancher train." ("Forgotten Kingdom: The Mormon Theocracy in the American West," David Bigler, pp. 167-168.) Because Brigham Young personally approved of the theft of the emigrants' cattle, he is ultimately responsible for the subsequent massacre. Also, in 1861, Young visited the MMM site and spoke to local Mormons, some of whom had participated in the massacre. Young stated: "Pres. Young said that the company that was used up at the Mountain Meadows were the Fathers, Mothers, Bros., sisters & connections of those that murdered the Prophets; they merited their fate, & the only thing that ever troubled him was the lives of the women & children, but that under the circumstances this could not be avoided." ---John D. Lee's diary entry of May 30th, 1861, as published in "A Mormon Chronicle: The Diaries of John D. Lee, 1848-1876", edited by Robert G. Cleland and Juanita Brooks.
@ Only problem is despite John D Lee’s later testimony after he is caught, his letter from Nov 20 1957 reports to Brigham that the Indians were responsible. Between this and Brigham’s letter in response to Isaac Haight that the immigrants should be allowed to pass in peace and it is nearly impossible to say that Brigham new of or planned the attack beforehand. I recommend Massacre at Mountain Meadows for the best collection of the earliest primary sources.
Do the Nauvoo Expositor next. The printing press Joseph Smith had burned down bc it exposed his polygamy which he had publicly vehemently denied practicing.
Was this the newspaper that was constantly saying the mormon leaders should be killed and that mormons were satanic? Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences 😜 get wrecked 🥳
The same reason Joseph ran from city to city, because he propositioned many women and girls and their husbands and fathers of course were mad at that crime, among his other crimes.
Wow, this is a very apologetic view of BY and his knowlege/involvement of this event. The guy didn't do anything to those that did the massacre until 14 years later when the feds came asking. He also kept blaming it on the Piute indians. So if he thought those who did this should be held accountable, why then did he later make some of them Bishops in the church and blame others instead of taking accountability for what happened? Why is this channel so bent on ignoring reality instead of facing up to what really happened? Only believe the rose colored views of history if it makes you believe a little better huh?
@@JustinPratt1 you speak the harsh truth. It’s pretty clear Young did not directly order the attack on the Baker-Fancher party, but DID facilitate the murder of all surviving witnesses over age 7. Maybe that was one of the moments he was “acting as a man”.
American Primeval is like a terrible spaghetti western but the violence is with knives instead of guns. NetFlix has a long history of writing terrible shows that end up getting deep-sixed. Just like Orange is the New Black, this will undoubtedly strike a chord with many people who have an overdose of free time on their hands.
In the end Howns hill massacre, with the extermination order, pluse no saport and protection by the construction, which gave religious right and protection. effective treated as void win it came down to it. Cause the people to flee the USA to the Utah taritor, because many were forces to flee for there life were ill perpared to cross the plans, which contributed to over a thousand deaths, a little over a hundred people died, and, suddenly the church is bad? Suddenly th 1900 people death mean nothing? It outrage me that I dont feel like a practicing Christian.
The Haun's Mill massacre, the expulsion from Missouri and Illinois, and every other incident of "persecution" against 19th century Mormons were caused by the Mormons' culture of lawlessness and violence. The very reason the Mormons moved to Mexican territory in 1847 was because they refued to obey US laws.
Wow, that was a very simplistic view and leaves out so much detail. When people are angry it is usually for a reason and you left all that out. Was the extermination order wrong? Yes. But there was a reason people were mad at church members and you leave all that out.
Please explain Joseph Smith reasoning for him saying this at the Nauvoo Council of Fifty, as found in the Joseph Smith Papers (page 305) - " If the Lamanites wont hearken to our council, they shall be oppressed & KILLED until they will do it”. The gospel to them is, they have been KILLED and scattered in consequence of their rejecting the everlasting Priesthood, and if they will return to the Priesthood and hearken to council, they shall have council enough, that shall save both them and us."
I think what the Council of 50 and the Mountain Meadows Massacre show is that Smith & Young had no qualms about using native peoples or "Lamanites" to their own self serving ends.
Well done, Jasmine! Aside from perspective issues regarding “Mormon persecution” prior to their trek to Salt Lake, this video is a mostly accurate synopsis of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. The one major flaw, however, is the absolving of Brigham Young from responsibility. The violent, militant and dangerous rhetoric against any and all non-Mormons, the order not to sell supplies or help parties traveling through, and the scapegoating of innocent families for the Mormons’ past troubles created an atmosphere that was bound to end in violence. That was 100% Brigham Young’s doing. Although I agree Young likely did not directly order the attack on the Baker-Fancher party, he created the atmosphere which led the rather large group of local Mormons to believe they were acting within Young’s directives. As criminal as that is for Young, significant evidence exists to show that after the initial attack, Young himself believed he must protect the Mormon settlements and he personally ordered the “cleanup” operation to eliminate everyone 8 years old and up (baptism age). The letter he sent to order the local members to allow the party to pass in peace was clearly written after Young learned of the initial attack, and was an obvious part of the “cleanup.” As further evidence of this, in his sermons after the massacre Young said, “…God has taken vengeance on the Baker-Fancher party.” It has been estimated that over 100 local Mormons took part in the attack and murder of the 120 men, women and children of the Baker-Fancher party, and the kidnapping of the 17 children. Over two years later when the US Army located the surviving children being held in Mormon homes, the children were malnourished, filthy, wearing just rags, and were in a state of ongoing emotional trauma and abuse. Young did conduct a show investigation, and sent a report to the Commission of Indian Affairs a year after the event. In the report, Young blamed the entire massacre on the Piute Indians and completely absolved all Mormons. This was an outright lie, regardless of what you believe Young's involvement was in the massacre. It was not until a small group of participants was identified as perpetrators by the federal government in 1870 that Young excommunicated them. Many of them had become Bishops and Stake Presidents by that time. John D. Lee was the only person ever executed for the mass murder, and that was 20 years after the event. I believe Lee was telling the truth when he said he was a scapegoat and the orders came from Young.
So what? Your crybaby accusations that it’s still on Brigham Young is not supported by any citations. The revenge and retribution mindset against him and the church perpetuated by you and others even if he was guilty of the worst accusations, just has to get in line to all the violence perpetuated against all parties in the 1800s. How many frontier settlements were massacred by Indians? How many Indians were massacred by the US government? How many Mormons were massacred by mobs? The wild West had an ugly history. Don’t get your feelings hurt if nobody cares about your insincere grievances.
Perhaps but that is is looking at the events from our perspective today. Given all the PTSD that the saints had gone through for a couple of decades and the continued need for the government and outsiders to not let the saints live their religion in peace, they circled their wagons. It was easy for them to see everyone as a possible threat. I suppose if I lived in those days, I probably would be walking around with a gun myself. Maybe the preaching by BY was likely to increase the risk of some sort of violence with armed saints shooting at armed government troops or non-LDS people in a shootout. I don't think Brigham Young or any normal LDS person could have imagined it would lead to the killing of unarmed men, women, and children. That is a special kind of evil that few could have predicted let alone did.
@@shootergavin3541 Your comment is an example of the perspective issues I mentioned. Growing up in the church I was always taught that the early Mormons (calling them "saints" is using that term loose and fast) were persecuted for their religious beliefs everywhere they went. In doing so, the church has redefined the term "persecution". The early Mormons did not get along with other members of their respective communities, that is for certain. Is it not odd that numerous new similar religions popped up in early 19th century America, but the Mormons were the only group "persecuted"? Why do you think that might be? Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists are also among the 19th century American religious inventions, yet they suffered no such "persecution." In reality, the Americans of the time really did not care what the religious beliefs of others might be. They cared about what directly affected them, and their way of life, similar to freedom-loving Americans of today. Perhaps the already-existing members of the communities took exception to the Mormons flooding in, stacking all local elections, and installing their men in all local positions of authority. Perhaps they objected to those local leaders creating laws that benefited Mormons only, alienated all non-Mormons, and allowed Mormons to control the lions share of the land. Maybe they did not like the Mormons creating their own aristocracy and economy, complete with their own currency and bank, which essentially cast non-Mormons aside. Perhaps the non-Mormons did not love the fact that creepy old Mormon men, many of whom already had multiple wives, were secretly marrying non-Mormons' wives, daughters, and sisters in clandestine ritualistic temple ceremonies. Maybe....just maybe, they had had enough when the leader of this group literally crowned himself "King of the Earth," ran for President of the United States, and ordered his Mormon army to stomp on the 1st Amendment by burning the building of the newspaper that dared tell the truth about them. Could any of this have contributed to the backlash the early Mormons eventually experienced, which they now refer to as "religious persecution"? 2 plus 2 has never amounted to 5, no mater how offended people are at the sight of 4. The uncomfortable truth is that early Mormons had a great deal more in common with Branch Davidians than they did with the jews of the Old Testament. Do you consider the Branch Davidians to be a persecuted group?
@@shootergavin3541 I must be on Jasmine's automated crap list. My reply to your comment was deleted almost instantly. I suppose it's a throwback to Joseph Smith ordering his private army to burn down the Nauvoo Expositor because they told the truth about the Mormons. "The 1st Amendment is great! if we agree with everything you say."
John D Lee stated that Brigham Young had full knowledge and approved the attack. This is why the LDS Church did their best to keep knowledge of it hidden for many years. If Brigham Young was truly sorry about it, he would have attended to the massacred bodies, had them properly buried, made a public statement and publicly apologized.
This is true, my great great grandfather was there at that time and warned us about the Mormons how vicious they were in securing territory against non believers let's just say, Brigham Young like the old saying "don't bring them old bring them young" 😂😂
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
One of the very best, honest, and short descriptions of the event. Well done!
Thank you Jasmine for sharing this brief yet to-the-point video that accurately summarizes the true context behind the horribly tragic Mountain Meadows Massacre. I always appreciate your short videos.
This show is not an accurate depiction of that period in time. Thank you for trying to explain the complexities of this time in our history. I appreciate it. Best answer yet.
The show was never purported to be an accurate depiction of that time period. It is Hollywood entertainment, with the setting of 1857 Utah. It is akin to "Abraham Lincoln, Vampire Hunter." Lincoln was a true historical figure, and the story is set in a genuine time period of American history. That's about it.
@woodystube1000 well the church already has enough crazy misinformation all over the place. It doesn't need any help feeding the fires that we are crazy cult members.
@@woodystube1000 Regardless of intent, this show is being taken, and inspires feeling, as though it was completely accurate. That underlying false narrative was likely the real intention anyway.
And why must Latter-day Saints simply accept and endure this kind of false narrative that inspires neighbors to slash tires, spray paint the house and bully the children? Because certain people in power are Christian Nationalist or adjacent to that evangelism and feel that the existence of Mormons is either too heretical, or is a threat to the profit margin, or both. Thus this, and future false narrative building will be endured.
@@eyes_wide_open23 it's a fictional show and never says it's historically accurate. It's like watching Harry Potter to learn about England. Watch a documentary if you want facts.
There are countless stories of Mormons hunting people down and killing for various matters.
Thank you for this explanation of the fate of the "Fancher Train" at Mountain Meadows. There is more to this story. Some years later, CL Fancher passed through the area where his family had been killed, on his way to join the family cattle ranch in Merced, California. He spoke with members there and ended up not only joining the Church, but became the first District President when the Church was organized in the Central Valley. The Fancher name is still prominent in the area, and many of his descendants were active Latter-day Saints.
A little more of that history, President Young tasked my great great grandfather, Isaac B. Nash with taking the surviving children to the East to bring them to their families.
@@johnnash5061 which kids??? The majority of the children who survived were located in local Mormon homes more than two years after the incident by federal troops who were finally investigating (sort of). They took custody of the surviving children and placed them with closest relatives, most of them in Arkansas. The troops later described the condition of the children as “deplorable” and filthy, wearing only rags. They were not exactly well cared for.
Great video, as always, Jasmine.
Thx for this brief summary of this horrific event.
Honestly, I am troubled by how so many comments on here turn around and blame the members for every bad thing that happened. All we have to go on is historical documents. We can't possibly grasp the experiences they went through. The Mountain Meadow Massacre was horrific and shouldn't have happened. We are so quick to judge their action with a degree of personal pride. We would like to believe if we had been through those experiences we would have handled it better. The truth is we will never know for sure what we would have done. Even now we can't even be honest about what we would do if we experienced something truly horrific like watching some kill your family in front of you.
History is messy and hard to understand because we truly can't understand what they were thinking and why. I for one have come to understand life is hard. It is not for me to judge them for their actions. Christ is our judge and advocate with the Father. God understands each of us and will judge fairly. We are imperfect and live in a fallen world.
I'm absolutely NOT trying to make light if the tragedy, but I have yet to hear anyone take into account the ptsd/generational trauma that likely affect most (if not all) of the Utah members, and how that may have colored their understanding of and reactions to certain situations. 😔
Massacre at Mountain Meadows and Vengeance is Mine are great books that describe in detail the lead up, the massacre itself, and the aftermath. Great read for anyone interested.
Thank you for the explanation.
Please explain
- Battle Creek Massacre (Did Brigham Young send the Mormon militia to " put a final end to their depredations"?)
- Provo River Massacre ( Did Brigham Young issue a partial extermination order of the Timpanogos Tribe ?")
- Skull Valley massacre
- Nephi massacre
- The Squaw Fight / Grass Valley massacre
- Circleville massacre
- BEAR RIVER massacre
Bear River was a U.S. Army operation. It also led Patrick Connor to touting himself as a hero.
Great commentary!
The First Presidency and other church leaders recently had a memorial for the Mountain Meadows Massacre. I think that it happened a few years back. They wanted us to remember what happened and why some of the members of the church didn't want to listen to Brigham Young. God bless the distants of those who lost their lives and the members in the area.
You really can't understand MM without first reading about Haun's Mill, Missouri, and the massacre that took place there in 1838. You also need to know about John D Lee's connection to both events.
Vengeance is mine, saith John D Lee. 😢
Lindsey Hansen Park is planning more hit pieces like this. She talked about it in a recent podcast. Like a Mormon True Crimes show for Netflix. Y’all better hang on because it’s going to get worse. Know the doctrine and know your history.
History repeats itself. Former Latter-day Saints who turn against the church have often stirred up hatred towards the Latter-day Saints amongst non members by spreading false and misleading information. This has happened time and again in church history in the 1800's, and it's also a pattern that was repeated over and over in the Book of Mormon, when dissident Nephites stirred up the Lamanites to anger who then attacked the Nephites. Hopefully it won't come to violent acts against Latter-day Saints. It is ironic that this Netflix show is depicting horrible acts of violence perpetrated against others because of false information and tragic misunderstandings and yet it is spreading the same kind of false information that precipitated these horrible acts in history in the first place.
"If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed."
-J. Reuben Clark, First Counselor in the First Presidency
The American Primeval series is historical fiction. The MMM was a real event, but the way it was portrayed in the film has no relation to reality. But this, however, is the truth:
One week before the Indian attack, Brigham Young met with twelve of their chiefs in a war council in Salt Lake City. Young's Indian interpreter, Dimick Huntington, recorded in his journal what Young told those chiefs. Historian David Bigler wrote:
"[Jacob] Hamblin and some twelve Indian chiefs on September first met with Brigham Young and his most trusted interpreter, 49-year-old Dimick Huntington, at Great Salt Lake. Taking part in this pow-wow were Kanosh, the Mormon chief of the Pahvants; Ammon, half-brother of Walker; Tutsegabit, head chief of the Piedes; Youngwuds, another Piede chieftain, and other leaders of desert bands along the Santa Clara and Virgin Rivers. Little was known of what they talked about until recently when it came to light that Huntington (apparently speaking for Young) told the chiefs that he 'gave them all the cattle that had gone to Cal[ifornia by] the south rout[e].' The gift 'made them open their eyes,' he said. But 'you have told us not to steal,' the Indians replied. 'So I have,' Huntington said, but now they have come to fight us & you for when they kill us they will kill you.' The chiefs knew what cattle he was giving them. They belonged to the Baker-Fancher train." ("Forgotten Kingdom: The Mormon Theocracy in the American West," David Bigler, pp. 167-168.)
Because Brigham Young personally approved of the theft of the emigrants' cattle, he is ultimately responsible for the subsequent massacre. Also, in 1861, Young visited the MMM site and spoke to local Mormons, some of whom had participated in the massacre. Young stated:
"Pres. Young said that the company that was used up at the Mountain Meadows were the Fathers, Mothers, Bros., sisters & connections of those that murdered the Prophets; they merited their fate, & the only thing that ever troubled him was the lives of the women & children, but that under the circumstances this could not be avoided." ---John D. Lee's diary entry of May 30th, 1861, as published
in "A Mormon Chronicle: The Diaries of John D. Lee, 1848-1876", edited by Robert G. Cleland and Juanita Brooks.
@ Your the first person to cite your source. I appreciate that. I’ll check them out.
@ Only problem is despite John D Lee’s later testimony after he is caught, his letter from Nov 20 1957 reports to Brigham that the Indians were responsible. Between this and Brigham’s letter in response to Isaac Haight that the immigrants should be allowed to pass in peace and it is nearly impossible to say that Brigham new of or planned the attack beforehand.
I recommend Massacre at Mountain Meadows for the best collection of the earliest primary sources.
Do the Nauvoo Expositor next. The printing press Joseph Smith had burned down bc it exposed his polygamy which he had publicly vehemently denied practicing.
Was this the newspaper that was constantly saying the mormon leaders should be killed and that mormons were satanic? Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences 😜 get wrecked 🥳
I did a video on this six months ago on my page. Feel free to check it out!
The same reason Joseph ran from city to city, because he propositioned many women and girls and their husbands and fathers of course were mad at that crime, among his other crimes.
Thanks
Diddnt joseph have a legion of thousands...they were against polygamy..😢😢😢
Typical Hollywood trash.
Wikipedia also has information about Mountain Meadows massacre
Wow, this is a very apologetic view of BY and his knowlege/involvement of this event. The guy didn't do anything to those that did the massacre until 14 years later when the feds came asking. He also kept blaming it on the Piute indians. So if he thought those who did this should be held accountable, why then did he later make some of them Bishops in the church and blame others instead of taking accountability for what happened? Why is this channel so bent on ignoring reality instead of facing up to what really happened? Only believe the rose colored views of history if it makes you believe a little better huh?
@@JustinPratt1 you speak the harsh truth. It’s pretty clear Young did not directly order the attack on the Baker-Fancher party, but DID facilitate the murder of all surviving witnesses over age 7. Maybe that was one of the moments he was “acting as a man”.
American Primeval is like a terrible spaghetti western but the violence is with knives instead of guns. NetFlix has a long history of writing terrible shows that end up getting deep-sixed. Just like Orange is the New Black, this will undoubtedly strike a chord with many people who have an overdose of free time on their hands.
If I'm kindly disposed I view it differently if I'm not then it does not matter what the truth is
The only Jaz from Utah I care to watch.
In the end Howns hill massacre, with the extermination order, pluse no saport and protection by the construction, which gave religious right and protection. effective treated as void win it came down to it. Cause the people to flee the USA to the Utah taritor, because many were forces to flee for there life were ill perpared to cross the plans, which contributed to over a thousand deaths, a little over a hundred people died, and, suddenly the church is bad? Suddenly th 1900 people death mean nothing? It outrage me that I dont feel like a practicing Christian.
The Haun's Mill massacre, the expulsion from Missouri and Illinois, and every other incident of "persecution" against 19th century Mormons were caused by the Mormons' culture of lawlessness and violence. The very reason the Mormons moved to Mexican territory in 1847 was because they refued to obey US laws.
Wow, that was a very simplistic view and leaves out so much detail. When people are angry it is usually for a reason and you left all that out. Was the extermination order wrong? Yes. But there was a reason people were mad at church members and you leave all that out.
Please explain Joseph Smith reasoning for him saying this at the Nauvoo Council of Fifty, as found in the Joseph Smith Papers (page 305)
- " If the Lamanites wont hearken to our council, they shall be oppressed & KILLED until they will do it”. The gospel to them is, they have been KILLED and scattered in consequence of their rejecting the everlasting Priesthood, and if they will return to the Priesthood and hearken to council, they shall have council enough, that shall save both them and us."
I think what the Council of 50 and the Mountain Meadows Massacre show is that Smith & Young had no qualms about using native peoples or "Lamanites" to their own self serving ends.
The LDS excuse dogma machine.
Well done, Jasmine! Aside from perspective issues regarding “Mormon persecution” prior to their trek to Salt Lake, this video is a mostly accurate synopsis of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. The one major flaw, however, is the absolving of Brigham Young from responsibility. The violent, militant and dangerous rhetoric against any and all non-Mormons, the order not to sell supplies or help parties traveling through, and the scapegoating of innocent families for the Mormons’ past troubles created an atmosphere that was bound to end in violence. That was 100% Brigham Young’s doing.
Although I agree Young likely did not directly order the attack on the Baker-Fancher party, he created the atmosphere which led the rather large group of local Mormons to believe they were acting within Young’s directives. As criminal as that is for Young, significant evidence exists to show that after the initial attack, Young himself believed he must protect the Mormon settlements and he personally ordered the “cleanup” operation to eliminate everyone 8 years old and up (baptism age). The letter he sent to order the local members to allow the party to pass in peace was clearly written after Young learned of the initial attack, and was an obvious part of the “cleanup.” As further evidence of this, in his sermons after the massacre Young said, “…God has taken vengeance on the Baker-Fancher party.” It has been estimated that over 100 local Mormons took part in the attack and murder of the 120 men, women and children of the Baker-Fancher party, and the kidnapping of the 17 children. Over two years later when the US Army located the surviving children being held in Mormon homes, the children were malnourished, filthy, wearing just rags, and were in a state of ongoing emotional trauma and abuse.
Young did conduct a show investigation, and sent a report to the Commission of Indian Affairs a year after the event. In the report, Young blamed the entire massacre on the Piute Indians and completely absolved all Mormons. This was an outright lie, regardless of what you believe Young's involvement was in the massacre. It was not until a small group of participants was identified as perpetrators by the federal government in 1870 that Young excommunicated them. Many of them had become Bishops and Stake Presidents by that time. John D. Lee was the only person ever executed for the mass murder, and that was 20 years after the event. I believe Lee was telling the truth when he said he was a scapegoat and the orders came from Young.
So what?
Your crybaby accusations that it’s still on Brigham Young is not supported by any citations.
The revenge and retribution mindset against him and the church perpetuated by you and others even if he was guilty of the worst accusations, just has to get in line to all the violence perpetuated against all parties in the 1800s.
How many frontier settlements were massacred by Indians? How many Indians were massacred by the US government? How many Mormons were massacred by mobs?
The wild West had an ugly history. Don’t get your feelings hurt if nobody cares about your insincere grievances.
Perhaps but that is is looking at the events from our perspective today. Given all the PTSD that the saints had gone through for a couple of decades and the continued need for the government and outsiders to not let the saints live their religion in peace, they circled their wagons. It was easy for them to see everyone as a possible threat. I suppose if I lived in those days, I probably would be walking around with a gun myself. Maybe the preaching by BY was likely to increase the risk of some sort of violence with armed saints shooting at armed government troops or non-LDS people in a shootout. I don't think Brigham Young or any normal LDS person could have imagined it would lead to the killing of unarmed men, women, and children. That is a special kind of evil that few could have predicted let alone did.
@@shootergavin3541 Your comment is an example of the perspective issues I mentioned. Growing up in the church I was always taught that the early Mormons (calling them "saints" is using that term loose and fast) were persecuted for their religious beliefs everywhere they went. In doing so, the church has redefined the term "persecution". The early Mormons did not get along with other members of their respective communities, that is for certain. Is it not odd that numerous new similar religions popped up in early 19th century America, but the Mormons were the only group "persecuted"? Why do you think that might be? Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists are also among the 19th century American religious inventions, yet they suffered no such "persecution." In reality, the Americans of the time really did not care what the religious beliefs of others might be. They cared about what directly affected them, and their way of life, similar to freedom-loving Americans of today.
Perhaps the already-existing members of the communities took exception to the Mormons flooding in, stacking all local elections, and installing their men in all local positions of authority. Perhaps they objected to those local leaders creating laws that benefited Mormons only, alienated all non-Mormons, and allowed Mormons to control the lions share of the land. Maybe they did not like the Mormons creating their own aristocracy and economy, complete with their own currency and bank, which essentially cast non-Mormons aside. Perhaps the non-Mormons did not love the fact that creepy old Mormon men, many of whom already had multiple wives, were secretly marrying non-Mormons' wives, daughters, and sisters in clandestine ritualistic temple ceremonies. Maybe....just maybe, they had had enough when the leader of this group literally crowned himself "King of the Earth," ran for President of the United States, and ordered his Mormon army to stomp on the 1st Amendment by burning the building of the newspaper that dared tell the truth about them.
Could any of this have contributed to the backlash the early Mormons eventually experienced, which they now refer to as "religious persecution"? 2 plus 2 has never amounted to 5, no mater how offended people are at the sight of 4. The uncomfortable truth is that early Mormons had a great deal more in common with Branch Davidians than they did with the jews of the Old Testament. Do you consider the Branch Davidians to be a persecuted group?
@@shootergavin3541 I must be on Jasmine's automated crap list. My reply to your comment was deleted almost instantly. I suppose it's a throwback to Joseph Smith ordering his private army to burn down the Nauvoo Expositor because they told the truth about the Mormons. "The 1st Amendment is great! if we agree with everything you say."
@@shootergavin3541 I was censored again. Echo chamber Jasmine strikes again!
John D Lee stated that Brigham Young had full knowledge and approved the attack. This is why the LDS Church did their best to keep knowledge of it hidden for many years. If Brigham Young was truly sorry about it, he would have attended to the massacred bodies, had them properly buried, made a public statement and publicly apologized.
This is true, my great great grandfather was there at that time and warned us about the Mormons how vicious they were in securing territory against non believers let's just say, Brigham Young like the old saying "don't bring them old bring them young" 😂😂