Why we run 25mm Taller Ball Joints
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
- If you have been closely following our Pikes Peak car or Yellow WRX Project car, you will have noticed that we are using a 25mm taller ball joint on both of those cars now.
When we first put them on, we wanted to get more experience with them before we did a full feature. Now that we have done that, it is time to give you our Secret for more front end grip.
These Tomioka Racing 25mm Taller Ball Joints have made a huge difference for us, and there is a good chance that they will do the same for you.
If you haven't watched the Caster video that we put out a while back, make sure that you take a look at that video as well:
• What is Caster and wha...
And if you would like to get a set of these Ball Joints on the way, you can find them on the Flatirons Tuning site here:
www.flatironstuning.com/tr-cs...
Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!
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😊😊😊, this is what I love about the community
Thanks very much!
Stay Tuned!
I’m running the caster adding sti oem aluminum arms on my SF5 wagon with white line bushings / tie rod ends and white line extended ball joints. Absolutely love it , will upgrade to 25mm ball joints when I need a new pair
Excellent! Thanks for watching and hope they work well for you.
Love these info videos!!!!!
Thanks very much!
Stay Tuned!
Nice! Definitely something I need to look at
Excellent! Glad that this was helpful.
Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!
Thanks for the info. Hope to try these out with my KW setup.
Excellent! Hope they work well for you.
Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!
Awesome watch. Im running the Super Pro roll center kit currently. But their like 5 years old. I just bought the Cobb front control arms with the offset bushing.
I might go ahead and try those ball joints.
I've used that company's products in the past and have been happy.
Thanks for watching, and I think if you are making that change, it is the perfect time to try these ball joints as well.
Hope they help and Stay Tuned!
Damn i wish knew about these before i bought the whiteline product.
For what it is worth, we do prefer running them with the Whiteline tie-rods, so you would still use those 🙂
Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!
On the wisefab knuckles on my GD i was still able to get -3° camber with standard sti control arms and mooresport camber plates
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment. That is good to hear. Maybe the Mooresport Camber Plates are a key ingredient. Glad the Wisefab Knuckles are working well for you.
Stay Tuned!
solid info,thanks! I've wanted to replace the ball joints on the my sti lower control arms, that I bought used, for my 05' FXT...I'm on KYB struts with swift lowering springs
Excellent! Hope these work out well for you.
Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!
Great overview, Jon.
One observation.
The caster gain with extended ball joints is valid if, indeed, the angle of the LCA would be as you've shown, dropping towards the rear. And this only happens fith anti-lift rear bushings. Otherwise, with the stock height rear bushings, the control arms on Subarus are rather horizontal, and biased towards anti dive.
Thanks for watching and thanks for the comment. I agree with what you said.
There are two things that the taller ball-joint does. One is to improve camber gain as the suspension compresses, and the other is to increase or maintain a caster angle by lowering the resting point of the front LCA. The amount of an effect that the taller ball joint will have is tied directly to how much of an angle the front LCA is off of horizontal. Putting on an anti-lift kit that drops the rear of the LCA to increase that angle will give you more of an effect from the taller ball joint.
The camber gain would be beneficial separately from that
Thanks again and Stay Tuned!
Hardrace make some good product
Thanks for watching. We do like Hardrace parts from what we have seen so far.
Stay Tuned!
How would running 25mm ball joints with a stock height Subaru work? Great video
A very informative vid, thanks.
SCCA autocross (Street Touring class) rules state that you can't change the spacing "between the hub carrier and lower suspension arm", so unfortunately it seems like I can't use this taller ball joint in my STI (correct me if you think I'm wrong). I already have a camber plate that increases caster, does the SuperPro SPF1388AK control arm bushing seem like another way to increase caster?
Thanks for watching! I agree that if the rules say that you can change the distance from the hub to the lower suspension arm, this type of roll correction isn't an option for that class.
Since those bushings are eccentric, yes, they would give you a bit more caster of they are allowed. Worth a shot.
Thanks again and Stay Tuned!
If you dig around some old posts in the motorsports part of NASIOC, pretty sure you'll find people talking about a similar Whiteline bushing for the GD chassis that people in various Street Touring classes would throw on instead of the geometry-changing anti-lift kit. Never ran it myself, but my understanding was different bushing orientations could focus on a slight change in anti-lift characteristics or a wee bit more caster, maybe not both at the same time.
@@mikes6707 The Superpro have to be installed at a specific orientation to be +caster apparently. But because you can put them in at any clock position I suppose that you could vary vs. anti-lift too.
I know that you mentioned that you use the aftermarket tie rods with these ball joints, but would there be any downsides of using the factory tie rods (assuming they aren't binding at the desired height)?
Also, how much lower than factory is your Pike's Peak car?
That you again for another stellar video!!
+1 for the same question, I recently replaced mine with stock, which I guess would lead a follow on question, is an alignment necessary? Seem's like the camber would change however toe shouldn't. At least in my head 😂
could induce bump steer
Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. Yes, binding would be the potential issue with the stock tie-rods.
The Pikes Peak car is about 2" lower than stock, maybe a little more.
Very glad that the video helped!
Stay Tuned!
@AlmostAverageAutomotive Yes, if you put the taller ball-joints on you would need to align the car because it would change the geometry, etc.
Thanks for the question and Stay Tuned!
Great video as always ! I have a 2018 WRX STI on Öhlins R&T (higher than recommended, so ~15-20mm lower than stock). Would you recommend those in my application (for a street car that is used mainly for mountain passes/roads) ?
I would say the stock ones are fine for your application if you do want to get alittle more I would go with the whiteline correction kit
@@SushiPac Thx !
@SPQR_GuiGui Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. If you are just under 1" lower than stock, I'd say that the standard roll center kit would be a good option. You will most likely see the benefit for it, but I don't think that you would need the 25mm ball joints at that point.
Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!
@@FlatironsTuning Thx for the advice !😉
So if im running lifted, around an inch higher for off-road ground clearance, should I use 20-25mm shorter ball joints?
Thanks for your question. If your car is lifted, then the issue that you can start to run into is that you run out of downward travel for your suspension. If you are lifted, I'd say that you would want to stick with the stock ball-joints, as the extra height will get you into trouble sooner.
Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!
Does the Cobb roll center correction kit work with GD chassis STi? Everywhere I've seen it listed says 08+ but I've done the research by comparing factory part numbers across all years and i see no reason why it wouldn't fit. Pretty much every subaru made uses the same part number ball joint and outer tie rod end. Am I missing something?
Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. While I agree that the Cobb kit is most likely the same as the Whiteline and Super Pro kits that say they work on the older cars, I'd just recommend using one of those two that says it is correct for your application.
That is usually the best way to go.
Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!
Whiteline make a strut top mount with increase camber OR increase caster depending on which way it is mounted. I don’t see that mentioned a lot - perhaps because most clovers do away with the strut top mount. I suppose for a 20mm drop with lowering springs the 10mm taller ball joint and positive caster strut top mount would suffice right?
Those don't gain much camber, and those top hats had defects in the beginning and now everyone thinks they are not worth it
@@jeffarcher8791 ah right, should at least give some caster. Since I have them and some Eibach springs lying around I'm going to throw them in and see what happens ..since I've had them lying around for ages I hope they're not one of the early defect ones.
The most recent plates I have gotten are Vorschlag (got 'em from RaceComp Engineering) and they have an angled slot so there is some negative camber and some extra caster, because everything is located as far "in" as is compatible with some "back" for the caster. I still get, once I adjust at the slotted bolt on the coil over mount, almost -4 camber. For Street Touring I can't cut the circle in the fender at top of shock. Haven't measured the camber gain from the extra caster. But if I put in the SuperPro rear LCA bushings I will measure the final result. There isn't much room left for negative camber on this arrangement, the springs are near the body on the inside of the tower.
I /have/ seen an unusual coilover arrangement on someone else's car, reminds me of a motorcycle upside down fork a little, where apparently the shaft for the center of the coilover does not come out of the top, which allows just a bit more negative to the coilover. This same one also is set to limit the compression travel to the point that the tire is stopped just before it hits the fender, which allows one to use about an 11" wheel and 295 section tire spaced out so that about an inch pokes out of the fender, sort of off road truck style. But it has limited travel and if you end up bottoming out then your spring rate goes to infinity and the car goes into understeer. (This class does not allow any cutting or flaring of the fender so a stock GD is pretty much limited to a 255/40-17 that stays inside the fender.)
@pault151 ah yes I see, thanks for that ..all the plates I've been looking at are centred whereas that Vorschlag is offset for more caster to the detriment of a little bit camber range ..which can be made at the hub bolts with most coilovers/shocks by the look of it.
@Kruse1 Thanks for your question. We used those on our Pikes Peak car when we were running the KW V-3 suspension. And you are correct, we picked those because they are designed for the stock sized springs, and KW designed their coilovers for the stock strut tops.
That is where the Whiteline Com-C (or Off-Set Strut Mounts) come into play. There are a few Rally guys running them with good results now too.
They can definitely work well, but your suspension has to be set up to use the stock strut tops. If your suspension comes with different top-hats, then you will need to use those, and often times, the adjustment that those have is a great tool to have.
Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!
Interested in putting this on my 04 FXT.
Currently on Forester Swift Springs (settled it's been lowered 1-1.5 inches), KYB shocks/struts, Titanium front tower bar, Whiteline quick disconnect rear tower bar, everything STI I could carry over (Steering rack, LCA, Front Sway bar, Lateral links), and new Group N bushings everywhere.
I am getting more understeer as I'm getting more used to the current setup. Didn't know if just uprating sway bars (notably the front) would remedy my situation.
This is purely a street car, but my suspension upgrade path was modeled after successful autocross guys, while not going too hardcore. Since roads around me allow for the same type of driving.
Since you guys have lots of experience, would you say this would be more of a gain over uprating my front sway bar as a sole upgrade or should this be done in tandem?
Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. If you are lowered that much, I'd say that it would be worth trying this ball-joint. If you pair it with an Anti-Lift kit, you will definitely have a lot more caster since you are running the STI LCA's. This will make your front suspension work better, and that is what will give you more front grip.
I'd say this will be a better path to go down to reduce understeer as just putting on a front sway bar will give you a bit better turn-in, but it will also give you more understeer at corner exit.
Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!
@@FlatironsTuning Thanks for taking the time to reply!
@@BadJo0Jo0 No problem at all! You can always reach out through our LIve Chat:
direct.lc.chat/10215172/
are these +25mm ball joints and whiteline tie rods both compatible with 2022+ WRX. Also, what is the goldilocks zone of lowering the 2022+ WRX
Thanks for watching and thanks for the question. As far as I know currently, these are not an option for the 2022+ WRX. If we can find an option for the new WRX we'll be sure to put it on our site.
Stay Tuned!
WE NEED THESE FOR THE VB'S !!! ID BUY THEM RIGHT NOW.
The S209 comes with STi Pinks. They are about a 20mm drop over a standard STi. Would that car benifit from those ball joints?
@jeffarcher8791 Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. If you are just under 1" lower than stock, I'd say that the standard roll center kit would be a good option. You will most likely see the benefit for it, but I don't think that you would need the 25mm ball joints at that point.
Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!
Would the 25 mm ball joint have any benefit on a stock setup?
I have a 2012 sti, with newer VA Sti struts/springs swapped on, with the newer quicker ratio steering rack also installed.
The 25mm ball joint is very motorsport oriented. You don't need it on a stock street car and it will likely do some of the negative things jon says the wisefab knuckles did to their pikes car. VA struts lower you like a half inch or less I think? At most you need the 10mm kits, but it's a waste if you're basically stock. I wouldn't bother.
Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. If your car is at stock ride height, the suspension geometry should be fairly good. I would say that there would be a lot of benefit from putting on something like an Anti-Lift kit, or the Super Pro arms with added caster bushings to get a bit more caster going, and then you would see a good benefit from adding the standard 10mm taller Whiteline/Super-Pro/Cobb roll center adjust kit.
The 25mm taller ball joints would be too much correction for a car that is at stock height.
Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!
I have the same VA suspension on a 2012 so about a half inch drop from GR height. Would you still recommend a 10mm ball joint and tie rod kit?
We do lemons in a 98 forester with coilovers and STI LCA. Any geuss as to why we keep shearing the nut of the lower ball joint? has happened 3 times in 4-5 races. We've been pretty lucky so far to have not hit anything with the failures. Yes, they have been torqued correct. Not that it matters as the nut is now welded on. 😂
Maybe get someone with experience to look at the failed part to see what the fracture surface says. Just a wild guess that the component might be getting torqued beyond its long term capabilities (fatigued) because something else in the system is frozen and the twist is transferring? If the nut is shearing off, being welded in place may not prevent the failure, depending on where things are breaking.
Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. That is really strange. That is a lot of shearing force at that point where there typically shouldn't be any. I wonder if there is something bent that is causing some weird movement that is introducing that force?
Maybe an odd question, but you are using the Transverse Boss cones on the ball joints?
www.flatironstuning.com/subaru-oem-transverse-link-boss-04-21-sti-15-21-wrx-06-09-lgt-spec-b
I'd say that it would definitely be worth getting a second opinion about what could be causing that issue.
Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!
I am running the Whiteline kit on a BRZ.
Does the 25mm kit only work because of AWD, or could it also work on BRZ Platform?
Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. The short answer is that this can work on your BRZ. Really, this can be needed or recommended for any car with McPherson front suspension that is lowered. And your BRZ does have that type of front suspension.
If you aren't that much lower than stock, then a standard roll-center kit would work (Whiteline, etc.), but if you are more than 1" lower, then you could try the 25mm ball joints.
Tomioka Racing does make a BRZ specific 25mm ball joint as well.
Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!
Sorry, forgot to include the link:
www.flatironstuning.com/tr-cs2005
Can I install the superpro with a stock suspension and Beatrush motor mounts.
Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. Yes, you could install those parts together.
Stay Tuned!
Curious what the minimum measurement of lowering for these to actually be effective, and not be detrimental.
Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. I'd say if you are just about 1" lower, then the standard Roll Center kit is fine.
If you are 1.5" or more lower than stock, that is where I'd look at the 25mm ball joints.
FWIW, I am only about 1.5" lower on my WRX and these 25mm ball joints have worked very well.
Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!
@@FlatironsTuning thanks. That's perfect info.
It looks like I've gotta replace the rear bushing on driver's side front lower control arm (I'm getting a "clunk" sound and I swear I can feel something loose possibly making the noise under and a bit to the right the foot well. I've got, >10K miles on new sway bar bushing & end links. Would this ball joint and the WL anti lift bushing (which give 0.5° of caster) be too much for a road car (track days are a serious possibility) or is 1 or the other, not both?
Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. For a stock car, I'd say that the WL Anti-Lift kit is a good option, as it can certainly help with handling and give you more grip up front.
If the car is not much lower than stock, the standard Roll-Center kit would likely be a good option as well.
I hope that helps and Stay Tuned!
@@FlatironsTuning since they cost the same, which is the better option?
@@vannevels6758 If you have an issue with your rear control arm bushing, you would absolutely want to fix that first.
Does this recommendation apply to the GD chassis?
@ericn7698 Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. Yes, absolutely. I have been running them on my 2003 WRX with great results. Here is the initial video talking about installing them:
ua-cam.com/video/5hP0kbxB3yw/v-deo.htmlsi=XkyHA655D2w4pcqO
Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!
Do you support Mitsubishi old sport compact suspension components?
Thanks for your question. That isn't something that we specialize in, but if you have part numbers of what you are looking for, we can definitely see what we can do.
Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!
Would it be necessary or help to do something similar for the rear suspension?
Thanks for watching and thanks for the question. The short answer is yes, but it is complicated.
On the GD chassis with front and rear McPherson suspension, the issue can definitely be present in the rear suspension for the same reason, but there isn't something simple like a ball joint to correct the issue. On the newer multi-link suspensions they don't need this as much, but you can definitely make improvements by replacing some of the linkages or putting in components that give you adjustment, etc.
Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!
There are rear subframes on the market with higher inner fixation points on the control arms that correct this also for the rear. But that's expensive and overkill. The big issue with understeer is on the front.
For example, the very cheap P25 uses stock parts for the rear and the suspension geometry looks like crap. If for 700k USD they didn't bother, neither should we.
with running these 25mm taller ball joints what tie rods would we run still either white line or super pro ?
Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. Yes, we are running them with the standard Whiteline Tie Rods and everything is working well.
Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!
@@FlatironsTuning if I swapped out my white line ball joints to these 25mm should I get a alignment ?
@@TheeHenley Yes, you would need an alignment when making that change.
The tie rods are not so much of an issue, since they mainly affect bump steer. The problem is the roll center, and that's affected only by the LCA angle. This is why having options for the lower ball joint only, like Tamioka, is just great. Especially since whiteline and superpro get all loose and can kill you.
*roll center AND dynamic camber. Double win with the lower joints.
Do they make them for a 1998 Acura Integra?
Thanks for watching and thanks for your question. They don't from what I can tell. Since your car has double-wishbone suspension up front, not McPherson, this wouldn't be a benefit to you.
I'd recommend looking at the Skunk@ Upper Control arms.
Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!
@@FlatironsTuning thanks 😊
Lemme just send you my lowered 06 OBXT and $10K to mechanically "correct" it.
Ha! Well, we can't work on your car, but we can certainly help point you in the right direction. Feel free to reach out with any questions you have.
Thanks for watching and Stay Tuned!
@@FlatironsTuning you done did it now! Prepare to be annoyed.....
which one of those ball joints and tie rods would you recommend for street driven car with near stock height almost. " coil overs but maybe about half an inch lower than stock"
Thanks for your question. If you are just under 1" lower than stock, I'd say that the standard roll center kit would be a good option. You will most likely see the benefit for it, but I don't think that you would need the 25mm ball joints at that point.
Hope that helps and Stay Tuned!