I have been a fan of Dr. Cargill for years. And of Dr. McClellan more recently. Today, Jordan Jones adds to my list of "stop and listen" to people on UA-cam. I'm such a fanboy and am nerding out! 🤪😝. Thank you for this video guys!
Dan mentioning that the representation of the golden “calf” being diminutive is super interesting to me as a layman, I’ve thought before of “why a calf when we know the depictions were most commonly bulls?” but I never thought there was anything to it, much less that it could have been a derogatory caricaturization
I've been deconstructing for several years now and I still run into things that just set me back in my heels. Thank you, Dan-- the bible as a divine image. ::mind blown:: yes. Absolutely.
Two of my absolute favorite scholars. I support you both on Patreon, I could not wait to watch this discussion. I knew that it would be good. I absolutely love it when Dan talks about the presumption of univocality.
This was a great conversation! Really appreciate it. Love the thoughts about how the kjv has become an idol for some. I had just a few weeks ago watched something that made me realize for the first time that the ark DEFINITELY can be seen as an idol. Mind blown. When you all were taking about what the calf in Exodus represented, I thought of something Rabbi David Wolpe said on an episode of Mysteries of the Bible (yes, I am a nerd, I still watch it sometimes, it was my intro to Biblical studies!). He said that the calf wasn't a substitute for god, it was a substitute for Moses. That as long as Moses was there they had someone to represent the deity. When he went up the mountain, they were at a loss because now there wasn't a person, so they had to make an object. Always thought that was interesting.
Religion without idolatry is pretty much useless. I can't think of a single religion past or present that hasn't found a theological loophole to allow idolatry
Christians wear crosses, worship statues of jesus and mary, won't shut up about "the holy spirit", believe in evil spirits and talking animals, adorn a christmas tree etc, but are first to attack other religions for being guilty of polytheism, magic or idolatry. 😂
What about the oxen for the baptismal font in the LDS temple. I’ve always thought of that as an example of idols, although they only indirectly represent God. But the placement of the font in the temple and the ritual involved very directly point to God. The Torah was mentioned as an object and I thought that was/is the case of the scriptures too. Some people keep a copy of the Bible or the Book of Mormon in their car as a sort of protection.
@@ApPersonaNonGratathey're also the group of people that go back in time and grab all the evidence Ron Wyatt found so we can't see it. Nothing ever cool like Bill and Ted did, either
*Golden calf(s)* E32:4 seems most likely to refer to Jeroboam’s (“Let the people increase”) creation of two golden calves 1 Kings 12:25-33 where Jeroboam is trying to change the gods, the capital and the worship and feast sites. “Here are your gods, Israel, which brought you up from the land of Egypt.”
At 23:40, would the 2 miniature stele (Ten commandments) inside the Ark of the Covenant or miniature shrine, both which represent the deity, give evidence that one represents the female 'god' and the other the male 'god,' or what based on archaeological evidence be YHWH and His escort?
Very interesting observation .and straight after that Yahweh comments them to make the ark of the covenant with angels on top .breaking the commandment .making a copper snake on a pole ect ect .
I have wondered if it existed but was incorporated into the story as a way of making it more holy or justifying or, as they talked about. I have heard that the festival of unleavened bread existed before the festival of Passover. That said festival was given new or additional meaning *after* the Torah became authoritative. If so, could be a similar thing happening with the ark.
Mentioning 'Aaron's budding rod,' which connotes Asherah, or what could also be the 'tree of life' in some studies, could this also be why the NT authors mentioned that Jesus was of 'Nazareth' or the 'Netzer branch? (Menorah/Light of the world) Could this parallel Jesus with what could be Divine Wisdom, Sophia, and/or the Holy Spirit, as in the ancient Syriac and early church fathers Iranaeus and Theophilus of Antioch agreed that the Holy Spirit is feminine in gender.
Dan, I'd love to engage you in a conversation about my eschatology and ideology. I ain't sharp and tired and I appreciate what you do, but I'd love to talk to you if you have a chance via chat message or whatever means you prefer.
The Golden Calf episode happened because Yahweh is invisible and unknowable and Moses went up the mountain leaving the Israelites without guidance. Yahweh knew this would happen because he planned it that way.
Talking about pushback Dan might get over comparing Jesus to an idol, it's funny a line of thought would obviously be controversial among Christians, but it's completely non-controversial to Jews and Muslims. To them the idea of a man worshipped as G-d is just clear "idolatry," "pagan," "creation-worship." And I think one could argue that in Judaism things like the ark of the covenant and then the Torah were very much idols, material items associated with and used to bring about the presence of an immaterial G-d. I think Dan frames it well, so much religious language is about managing "us vs them." Our "objects of worship" versus their "idols." Their "graven images they worship as gods" and "our holy scriptures that we sing praises to as the means with which we understand G-d." None of this to say that anyone should give up their beliefs and the long held practices of their faith, I just wish people would be a little more humble and slow to judge people whose deeply held beliefs and practices differ.
To be fair though, all Jews and Muslims regard the Quran & Torah as a LITERAL INCARNATION of God('s Divine Essence)-it was only Christianity that refocused God's incarnation as being in the man Jesus, not some book or the Jerusalem Temple
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.” Exodus 20:4.
Yes Moses is a spirit medium and diviner and sorcerer all things they claim not to be .the are mimicking the nations around them and re defining the meaning of the words /practices .but essentially it’s all the same thing .
Still, idolatry is evil! He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt." - Exodus 32:4 Did the Israelites create a new god? No. What they wanted to embody was their Creator Yahweh, who defeated the ten gods of Egypt with ten plagues, divided the Red Sea, protected them with a pillar of cloud during the day and a pillar of fire at night, gave them manna when they were hungry, and made water spring from a rock when they were thirsty. They did not make the golden calf with the purpose of worshiping another god. They simply made the golden calf as an expression to represent Yahweh. There was no change in the worship of Yahweh. However, God's judgment was clear. Do not make a figure!!! And the standing stone was also wrong. Should Jacob's consecration of the stone on which he slept be called a standing stone? Was the stone Jacob set up after making an agreement with Laban also a standing stone? The Ten Commandments were originally engraved on stone tablets, not standing stones. The reason they were engraved on stone tablets was because they were to be placed in the Ark of the Covenant, which was made by Yahweh’s command. The proof is that the Ten Commandments were engraved on stone tablets again to replace the first stone tablet that Moses threw down in anger at the corrupt Israelites. Why would the Israelites, who would have to wander for decades, engrave the law on standing stones? And speaking of the Ark of the Covenant, there was actually an incident where the Ark of the Covenant was used as an idol. In 1 Samuel, the two corrupt sons of the high priest Eli carried the Ark of the Covenant like a tactical nuclear weapon when the Israelites went into battle without any permission or permission from God. The result was the miserable defeat of the Israelites, the abandonment of the Holy Land, and the death of the two rebellious sons! Because the Ark was treated as an idol, the wrath of Jehovah came upon the defeated Israelites and the victorious Philistines alike. Clearly, God promised to come to the two cherubim of the Ark and meet the Israelites. It is like the tree of knowledge of good and evil in Eden. In other words, it signifies God’s sovereignty. If we dare to call this an idol, it is a challenge to the Christian faith itself. Even the intention to commit it is treason. Also, the Bible is constantly being disputed, but the Bible is important not because of its material form, but because of what the writings in it testify to, namely, the wickedness of man and the glory of God. This is something that man cannot do on his own or for someone else to do for him. So when something happens, he speaks it or writes it down, and the writings that come together to form the book are the Bible. And what people who talk about the Bible often forget is that there is another word of God in the world. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is the true Word, and through this Word God created the world, and he is the power and essence of God, and all of God's words are embodied in Jesus. That is why Jesus said that he is the image of God and asserted that anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. The one who fully shows the essence and the image is the body itself. And is there any saint who would deny that the Bible, a Word of God, was written to testify to "Jesus Christ, The Word of God"?
How could anything "archeological" serve as proof for the existence of a god or any gods, or prove any particular set of religious beliefs are correct and true above all other 3,999 brands of world religions?!?
It seems that’s not the point of archeology. An objective dig does not search to prove the existence of a god or gods except to find and understand relics or statues that were used by people at the time. Whether their god(s) actually existed is not germane to the research.
I have been a fan of Dr. Cargill for years. And of Dr. McClellan more recently. Today, Jordan Jones adds to my list of "stop and listen" to people on UA-cam. I'm such a fanboy and am nerding out! 🤪😝. Thank you for this video guys!
Dan mentioning that the representation of the golden “calf” being diminutive is super interesting to me as a layman, I’ve thought before of “why a calf when we know the depictions were most commonly bulls?” but I never thought there was anything to it, much less that it could have been a derogatory caricaturization
"Bull" ...."calf" what difference does it make?? The important thing is they worshipped it..!!!
@@theodorematuga7978 It requires a bit more critical thought than you're engaged in here to grasp the difference
I've been deconstructing for several years now and I still run into things that just set me back in my heels.
Thank you, Dan-- the bible as a divine image. ::mind blown:: yes. Absolutely.
Two of my absolute favorite scholars. I support you both on Patreon, I could not wait to watch this discussion. I knew that it would be good. I absolutely love it when Dan talks about the presumption of univocality.
This was a great conversation! Really appreciate it. Love the thoughts about how the kjv has become an idol for some. I had just a few weeks ago watched something that made me realize for the first time that the ark DEFINITELY can be seen as an idol. Mind blown.
When you all were taking about what the calf in Exodus represented, I thought of something Rabbi David Wolpe said on an episode of Mysteries of the Bible (yes, I am a nerd, I still watch it sometimes, it was my intro to Biblical studies!). He said that the calf wasn't a substitute for god, it was a substitute for Moses. That as long as Moses was there they had someone to represent the deity. When he went up the mountain, they were at a loss because now there wasn't a person, so they had to make an object. Always thought that was interesting.
Religion without idolatry is pretty much useless. I can't think of a single religion past or present that hasn't found a theological loophole to allow idolatry
You're obviously NOT thinking!!!
@@davidjanbaz7728 Which religion are you thinking of?
Very true because “idolatry” can take on many forms. Even all the rituals of the OT were just memorials and reenactments of the exodus story
False idols = idols from other religions that your religion doesn’t like
Christians wear crosses, worship statues of jesus and mary, won't shut up about "the holy spirit", believe in evil spirits and talking animals, adorn a christmas tree etc, but are first to attack other religions for being guilty of polytheism, magic or idolatry. 😂
What about the oxen for the baptismal font in the LDS temple. I’ve always thought of that as an example of idols, although they only indirectly represent God. But the placement of the font in the temple and the ritual involved very directly point to God. The Torah was mentioned as an object and I thought that was/is the case of the scriptures too. Some people keep a copy of the Bible or the Book of Mormon in their car as a sort of protection.
A 3D printed Ta’anach cult stand?! I want one of those!
My favorite part is when you left that comment ... a day before this streamed.
Time-travelers always get first dibs on cult-merch. NO FAIR!!!
Same! 😂
@@ApPersonaNonGratathey're also the group of people that go back in time and grab all the evidence Ron Wyatt found so we can't see it. Nothing ever cool like Bill and Ted did, either
@@ApPersonaNonGrataYeah, that’s literally how time travel works, dude.
I designed and sent Dan the Taanach model. I'd be happy to make one for you.
I'd never heard of all this drama...I READ it of course, but never really thought about it.
Such an interesting discussion. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Dan, what do you think about the authenticity of the Book of Mormon?
He won't address that.
*Golden calf(s)*
E32:4 seems most likely to refer to Jeroboam’s (“Let the people increase”) creation of two golden calves 1 Kings 12:25-33 where Jeroboam is trying to change the gods, the capital and the worship and feast sites. “Here are your gods, Israel, which brought you up from the land of Egypt.”
At 23:40, would the 2 miniature stele (Ten commandments) inside the Ark of the Covenant or miniature shrine, both which represent the deity, give evidence that one represents the female 'god' and the other the male 'god,' or what based on archaeological evidence be YHWH and His escort?
Very interesting observation .and straight after that Yahweh comments them to make the ark of the covenant with angels on top .breaking the commandment .making a copper snake on a pole ect ect .
Fundies worship their book, especially the KJV, which they won't admit to contain errors.
53:00 almost like wrestling with El? Where have I heard that before? 😏
My thought as well!
Great episode!!! ❤🤘🏻❤
I wonder if the serpent on the pole is representing a much later, cultic image?
It was definitely an idol
If the Exodus never happened, then it is possible that the Ark of the Covenant never existed, and was a later invention?
I have wondered if it existed but was incorporated into the story as a way of making it more holy or justifying or, as they talked about. I have heard that the festival of unleavened bread existed before the festival of Passover. That said festival was given new or additional meaning *after* the Torah became authoritative. If so, could be a similar thing happening with the ark.
Is the holy communion of Christianity and idol? Especially for Catholics who believe the bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Jesus?
Mentioning 'Aaron's budding rod,' which connotes Asherah, or what could also be the 'tree of life' in some studies, could this also be why the NT authors mentioned that Jesus was of 'Nazareth' or the 'Netzer branch? (Menorah/Light of the world) Could this parallel Jesus with what could be Divine Wisdom, Sophia, and/or the Holy Spirit, as in the ancient Syriac and early church fathers Iranaeus and Theophilus of Antioch agreed that the Holy Spirit is feminine in gender.
Dan, I'd love to engage you in a conversation about my eschatology and ideology. I ain't sharp and tired and I appreciate what you do, but I'd love to talk to you if you have a chance via chat message or whatever means you prefer.
The Golden Calf episode happened because Yahweh is invisible and unknowable and Moses went up the mountain leaving the Israelites without guidance. Yahweh knew this would happen because he planned it that way.
Nonsense
Yahweh is really rude.
Talking about pushback Dan might get over comparing Jesus to an idol, it's funny a line of thought would obviously be controversial among Christians, but it's completely non-controversial to Jews and Muslims. To them the idea of a man worshipped as G-d is just clear "idolatry," "pagan," "creation-worship."
And I think one could argue that in Judaism things like the ark of the covenant and then the Torah were very much idols, material items associated with and used to bring about the presence of an immaterial G-d.
I think Dan frames it well, so much religious language is about managing "us vs them." Our "objects of worship" versus their "idols." Their "graven images they worship as gods" and "our holy scriptures that we sing praises to as the means with which we understand G-d."
None of this to say that anyone should give up their beliefs and the long held practices of their faith, I just wish people would be a little more humble and slow to judge people whose deeply held beliefs and practices differ.
Interesting take on the Bible functioning as an idol. In fact, Steven Anderson - a famous nfib pastor - openly claims that the Bible IS god 😂😂😂🤦🤦🤦
To be fair though, all Jews and Muslims regard the Quran & Torah as a LITERAL INCARNATION of God('s Divine Essence)-it was only Christianity that refocused God's incarnation as being in the man Jesus, not some book or the Jerusalem Temple
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.”
Exodus 20:4.
Yes Moses is a spirit medium and diviner and sorcerer all things they claim not to be .the are mimicking the nations around them and re defining the meaning of the words /practices .but essentially it’s all the same thing .
No it is not. Moses trust God.
@@cogforreal5952 the spirit he is mediating with .point proven .
Dan's letting his philosophy slip. He doesn't care what the truth is he wants his subjective will to be right.
Still, idolatry is evil!
He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt." - Exodus 32:4
Did the Israelites create a new god? No. What they wanted to embody was their Creator Yahweh, who defeated the ten gods of Egypt with ten plagues, divided the Red Sea, protected them with a pillar of cloud during the day and a pillar of fire at night, gave them manna when they were hungry, and made water spring from a rock when they were thirsty. They did not make the golden calf with the purpose of worshiping another god. They simply made the golden calf as an expression to represent Yahweh. There was no change in the worship of Yahweh.
However, God's judgment was clear. Do not make a figure!!!
And the standing stone was also wrong. Should Jacob's consecration of the stone on which he slept be called a standing stone? Was the stone Jacob set up after making an agreement with Laban also a standing stone?
The Ten Commandments were originally engraved on stone tablets, not standing stones.
The reason they were engraved on stone tablets was because they were to be placed in the Ark of the Covenant, which was made by Yahweh’s command. The proof is that the Ten Commandments were engraved on stone tablets again to replace the first stone tablet that Moses threw down in anger at the corrupt Israelites. Why would the Israelites, who would have to wander for decades, engrave the law on standing stones?
And speaking of the Ark of the Covenant, there was actually an incident where the Ark of the Covenant was used as an idol. In 1 Samuel, the two corrupt sons of the high priest Eli carried the Ark of the Covenant like a tactical nuclear weapon when the Israelites went into battle without any permission or permission from God.
The result was the miserable defeat of the Israelites, the abandonment of the Holy Land, and the death of the two rebellious sons! Because the Ark was treated as an idol, the wrath of Jehovah came upon the defeated Israelites and the victorious Philistines alike.
Clearly, God promised to come to the two cherubim of the Ark and meet the Israelites. It is like the tree of knowledge of good and evil in Eden. In other words, it signifies God’s sovereignty.
If we dare to call this an idol, it is a challenge to the Christian faith itself. Even the intention to commit it is treason.
Also, the Bible is constantly being disputed, but the Bible is important not because of its material form, but because of what the writings in it testify to, namely, the wickedness of man and the glory of God. This is something that man cannot do on his own or for someone else to do for him. So when something happens, he speaks it or writes it down, and the writings that come together to form the book are the Bible.
And what people who talk about the Bible often forget is that there is another word of God in the world. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is the true Word, and through this Word God created the world, and he is the power and essence of God, and all of God's words are embodied in Jesus. That is why Jesus said that he is the image of God and asserted that anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. The one who fully shows the essence and the image is the body itself. And is there any saint who would deny that the Bible, a Word of God, was written to testify to "Jesus Christ, The Word of God"?
How could anything "archeological" serve as proof for the existence of a god or any gods, or prove any particular set of religious beliefs are correct and true above all other 3,999 brands of world religions?!?
It seems that’s not the point of archeology. An objective dig does not search to prove the existence of a god or gods except to find and understand relics or statues that were used by people at the time. Whether their god(s) actually existed is not germane to the research.