Is input more important than output in language learning?
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- In this video I will discuss the relationship between input and output when learning a language, specifically why input is more important than output, especially at the earlier stages of language learning, which involves Stephen Krashen's Comprehensible Input Hypothesis as well as other famous hypotheses in second language acquisition, such as the noticing hypothesis and the interlanguage hypothesis.
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You really give me a lot of inspiration to keep going on my path of language learning. My native language is Spanish and now I know English and soon I’ll be able to speak French and hopefully Korean. The list goes on!:)
Glad you like it! Keep up the great work!
@@phoenixhou4486upu😅uu
Courage !! J’espère que tu as continué sur ta lancée en français !
一边看一边点头，果然实践者的分享非常硬核。真是从最底层逻辑和原理--心理因素、思维方式和生理因素几个维度解释学习语言这回事，感谢！🤗
Bravo! Wish everyone could learn from this video. Schools and governments especially need to understand this and not just insist on the kids' engaging in speaking when they have nothing to say and can say nothing.
Please keep uploading useful content like this! It gives me hope to achieve native-speaker level. Appreciate your professional opinions! Hope one day I will speak like a native !
I’m really glad you find it helpful! 💪🏼💪🏼
@@phoenixhou4486 很有用的视频 👍 老师说得不错。我的中文口音很差，但是我觉得我加班会提升。[I'll continue in English because I don't know enough vocabulary:] In these 3 months of learning, I've put most of my efforts on reading, listening and writing, but not much on my speaking. I can actually listen to a fast speaker and have an idea of how I would write that down in pinyin, but when it comes to speaking I'm very robotic. I've recently started speaking with a native speaker language partner, we play videogames together and chat in both, English and Chinese, and this is helping both of us.
@@sasino我们可以互相输出各自的语言We can export each other's languages, for example, I speak Chinese, then speak English, let's help each other
Big thanks for your ideas/advice, it completely make sense and i am glad that am going into the right direction.
I think it's mainly because people don't try to improve, tbh. They try speaking early, say "alright, I got this part down," and keep learning other stuff, despite bad grammar or pronunciation. I got fluent in Spanish, and I can sometimes convince people that I'm a native speaker. I still make mistakes, but it's rare and I usually self-correct.
But I can't tell you how many other English natives I've run into that understand Spanish perfectly, they listen to music, sometimes have traveled to Spanish speaking countries, but their accent is... horrible. And one thing I've noticed is that they'll revert to English (with specific words that Spanish speakers don't do this with). And this has honestly led me to believe that they just get used to the fact that English widely known, and that they can be understood just enough. So they just don't try to improve, and I'm convinced that they could if they wanted to.
Yes, even if we know lots of words in another language, if we do not know the adverbs and conjonctions (i-e, whie, even if, not only but... ect...) , it is very difficult to explain something a bit complexe...
Great video
Thanks!
Ur vids are the most helpful inputs❤ 谢谢
Thank you! I’m really glad you find them helpful
This is on point 💯
Beautiful!
大佬保重，stay safe in Shanghai
谢谢！
I think there has to be a balance. If you never practice writing or speaking, you will never be good at it, no matter how much you listen or read. What I`ve found is that we need to speak, but with native speakers who will correct us and replace our phrases or words with the more native ones.
Yes
I guess so!
God I feel like my English fossilized at an upper intermediate level. My pronunciation and grammar are passable but I make the same mistakes again and again unconsciously. But How can I fix this🚬
我自己也自学好集中语言，请问一下我现在一直在hello talk的朋友互相学习，你说的读，请问一下包括哪些内容？读课本的句子吗？视频的句子吗？还是视频或者听力的句子跟着读？谢谢！
最开始跟教材，后来慢慢开始接触自己喜欢的内容。
我感觉我说话完全注意语法说的比较慢卡一点。 不注意完全注意会流畅一点，但是有时候说过之后会意识到自己说错了。 是因为积累的还不够多吗？ 那种比较好呢？
能意识到就很好 ，这点很重要，说错之后在心理改正就行。
刚开始要学唱歌,讲话.如果要写字.排 字体。好像，Using tooth- pick sticks to form 人‘ after that add a small stick 一 to 人 became 大 Add 二 to 人 became天 . Add two small sticks to 大 became头....买卖 灾火🔥火灭灾火土 太犬 头. From 人 ，move two sticks apart became 八入 then bend two sticks became 儿, add a small piece together to form 又叉 又
write using 凵 and add l, 山，出 凹
巾帼 离 山 巨 叵 匠 臣 尺层.using handphone software, as long write 70% similar word will appear
谢谢。
好像想明白了什么。其实就把自己当婴儿就好，他们先做什么后做什么我们就也先做什么后做什么。我坚信成人的大脑要是也一模一样真的是一模一样经历一遍一个婴儿的第一个5年（当然这是不可能的），也是可以把外语学好的。我根本不相信“成人的大脑过了语言期”。因为从未有人做过实验，我不信
What do you prefer to use for comprehensible input before you can manage harder but more interesting and engaging content?
I usually start with textbooks and the audio files that come with them
Always loved how you express your ideas, your personality and the mood of your videos. Cheers!
Thank you! I’m really glad you like it!
True I FELT the same!
Great video
Thanks!
超同意！此外我发现给输入和输出搞平衡蛮难的，输入少了输出质量上不去，输出少了就学成了哑巴xx语。
As a long time language teacher this is exactly what I have discovered over years, on my own, counter to what i was "taught" in graduate school 👍
Small children always start out speaking making a lot of mistakes in their speech but they seem to work it out themselves in a few years. But I agree that lots of input is very important and I don’t think the schools I went to emphasized it nearly enough, particularly with regard to listening. In my self-study I spend most of my time practicing listening.
I think the speak from day one approach is a reaction to some learners who were too afraid to speak even though they were pretty good at other skills, but this has not really been my experience.
well, one counter argument is that small children are surrounded by adults who are constantly correcting their grammar, phrasing and pronunciation. while second language learners don’t have that kind of input.
it’s also possible that fossilisation doesn’t happen for children because their brains are much more plastic. when an adult learns new information, the new information is incorporated into the existing neural networks in their minds, so the can learn complex things more easily but perhaps find it harder to unlearn things because their neural networks are so much more complex it takes a lot more work to rewire them.
Yeah, because they've had thousands of hours of input before that.
Yeah, the input vs output thing completely falls apart in first language acquisition. One thing that tickles me is when people argue that you acquire only through input or that you should postpone output and then make a comparison with young children. I always think: "you don't have kids, do you?" ^^ I mean, they just won't shut up lol, and that's true long before they pronounce anything recognisable as a word.
A book you might enjoy is "The language game: how improvisation created language and changed the world" by Morten Christiansen and Nick Chater. It's overall just a fun read, but the main thesis is interesting: language is a "community-wide game of charades, where each new game builds on those that have gone before". And children acquire the language just by jumping into the game and extemporizing like everyone else.
It's a nice thesis, one that fits rather nicely with the observation that if there is one group that absolutely cannot acquire a language through input alone, it is young children. We seem to be able to do that for second languages later on in life (though whether it's advisable to do so is debatable), but for young children language and socialisation are completely intertwined. Put a child under age 3 in front of a television with age-appropriate shows, and he will acquire nothing at all of the language, unless he also has opportunities to have real social interactions in the language. And if I want to reliably predict the verbal development of a baby a few years down the line, the best metric isn't too look at how much input he's getting from his parents; the best metric is to look at how many turns he has in an average conversation with them. The more involved kids are in conversations, the better their verbal development later on.
SLA is a different ballpark, so it may be the case that input is more important than output there. Maybe. But that kind of distinction really doesn't make any sense for first language acquisition. I mean, you don't have to tell an infant to speak from day 1. He will, whether you want him to or not. ^^
I like to learn pronunciation first and then once I've learned the basics, alongside stuff like grammar and vocabulary. To be fair though I enjoy the pronunciation aspect the most because I find it satisfying when I can finally produce a sound that I previously wasn't able to. I learned how to roll my R's a while ago and I remember how excited I was. I can also make the sound in Turkish that is the i without the dot, still working on getting ö and ü consistently right. It's fun :)
Interesting. As an English Speaking foreigner who learned Turkish, I commend your efforts to master your pronunciation in the L2.
wooow, so handsome plus great content
actually they are both important for me, because i think the best way of learning English(or other language)is to improve those 4 skills "at the same time"
input (Listening and Reading) is more vital than output. (unless you have a teacher who's ready to correct you.
too polite to correct me? 😅
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Hello everyone, I have been learning English by listening for a while and now I can understand most conversations and watch videos in English. I have also started doing shadowing, but I am not sure if what I am doing is effective. Besides, once we have enough input, can we speak automatically or do we need to go through some other practice? I would appreciate any advice from those who have gone through this process. Thank you!
Yeah man! You are so right. Three months ago, I started listening to adaptive audiobooks for different levels. I didn't wait for my speaking and writing skills to improve so quickly and so much. Now I spend ninety percent of my learning process listening. Now I can listen native speakers' material. The first two weeks were the hardest, but after that, when you get acustomed to it. You start consuming more and more different audio materials and every week it gets easier and easier.
Hey! Where did you find adaptive audiobooks for different levels? Was it via an app or website?
@@AtramaTheOSM You can find them on UA-cam. All you have to do is type the following keyword into the search box: "English audiobook level 1-7" or "Graded reader English". Enter the number of the level you need, and that's all.
@@AtramaTheOSM UA-cam
Does shadowing enhance fluency though? I've heard conflicting opinions.
Thank you for the video, Phoenix! Really glad to be watching this early on in my language journey
Hope it helps!😝
I can understand your words but my grammar is still terrible, maybe the grammar to understand is too little to speaking. Maybe it's my problem. My brain deal with the order terribally.
I agree with those theories a lot. I'm fluent in portuguese (my native language) and english. I started learning english in school so we only had two lessons a week, started when I was 10 and stopped having lessons when I was 18 but I'm pretty sure that most of the learning was watching american youtubers and watching movies. Y'know to get to know how the language is really spoken.. I'm currently learning french, german and starting japanese so let's see how this goes, focusing on input and all of that. Also, there's this youtuber called "Matt vs Japan", he made a video about this topic, it's worth looking.
Thanks for the recommendation! I'd love to study German as well but I've been too occupied with other stuff. Hope to start soon. Keep up the great efforts!
@@phoenixhou4486 You too man! Take care
Lies, the language learning community can't argue on anything 😂 it's so funny
因为所有的baby 都是先会听，然后才学会说😊
Your videos give me hope. I'm currently learning Yoruba (which funny enough is supposed to be my native language so its already embarrassing enough not knowing how to speak it). I was already getting frustrated about not being able to speak it, but i can follow most conversations easy. I'll keep going. Thanks Phoenix!
It’s awesome to hear finally someone’s studying a native African language!
This is super interesting. Do you happen to know where I can read the research about fossilization caused by speaking incorrectly too early? I'm curious as to why it happens in second language learners, but not children who make mistakes while acquiring their first languages.
"Wrong "...you say that because you are selling another method a more complicated one, divided into a lot chapters that represents more money for you.
Hi Phoenix, your sharing is so much inspiring and helpful! I have been learning English for almost 10 years and still have the heavy Chinese accent, and stammered a lot with speaking anxiety. I'm wondering if there's a way to overcome the obstacles to improve my language proficiency to next level? Thank you!
I would say practice and shadow for at least 30 min every day and you will see results in a few months.
Thank you so much….your videos are super useful 🥺❤️
Am I the only one to notice the non-Guiness in a Guiness glass? That has to be a beer crime is it not? :) I forgive you because I have been an English speaker for nearly 30 years and it's the first time I've heard the word "fossilization" in a language learning context.
lol I just really like the Guinness pint I drink soup with it
As an English teacher, who's been teaching English for the past 12 years, I confirm what you said concerning the importance of input over output. I believe that being able to speak and write in a language is the result, not the cause, of acquiring that language.
You want about 10 times more input than out put and to leave output for last, and start outputting in writing, leaving speaking for LAST.
This enables you to learn and get familiar with and hear the new sounds and rhythms of the foreign language. I nail my tones initials and finals in Chinese even the ones that don't exist in English because I did it this way. I never drilled bad habits because I waited for speech production to the very last. So there weren't things to unlearn, false connections, ingrained erroneous habits.
You can absolutely have fun learning this way! And your language production will be much much better!
I am going to try that. I normally listen ,then speak. I have stopped writing for awhile.
我是越南人。由于工作要求，我花四年听中文并没有了说或者写一句。
加油！
I agree. I have tutored English language learning based on the premise that we take in (as babies and toddlers) for a few years before we ever produce any articulate sentences. We, nevertheless, begin comprehending various words and phrases through that process.
I have never asked my students to reproduce anything, (as they are always beginners). I merely ask them to demonstrate comprehension, via written assignments, generally matching words to images. After all, sight plays an important role in language comprehension. I wish I had the confidence to write an English language learning program based on this concept of learning language.
where have you been all my life dude
guy's keep going with grammar correctness
but I only listen to reggaeton for learning spanish
ayeeeeeeee
lmao😂
UP主可能忽略了一点，交流可以帮助你更快的掌握一门语言。虽然可能会有一些弊端，但作为一门语言学习者，语言更多的是用来交流，而不是用来标榜自己的语言掌握水平。就比如说如果你身处一个母语国家去学习他们的母语，交流和不交流对于学习语言的效率是显而易见的，交流的话你通常不会超过3个月就能熟练掌握一门语言，也不需要特意去记语法和词汇，但如果你不交流，可能对于一些学习不用功或者不上心的人来说3年恐怕你都无法做到跟人正常对话。
Take good care of yourself and your loved ones in Shanghai
- ❤️ from NYC
Thank you! The same to you too!
You're not only the language master but also a man full of wisdom! I was the person who gave you the tips for pronouncing the Uyghur language on Bilibili.😁 And I've jst seen ur video on Bilibili now I accidentally saw u on UA-cam again! hahahahh you're gonna be hella amazing! keep it up man! But I'm still curious about why you wanna learn the Uyghur language tho hahh😅
Hi there. Thanks for the support! It's just pure curiosity about the people and the culture, and it's also the first Turkic language I've studied consistently.
@@phoenixhou4486 wow, that’s truly impressive! I believe that I have a lot to learn from your videos))) btw, if after you’ve conquered the Uyghur language, you could speak other languages as well such as Kazakh, Uzbek and Kyrgyz etc., probably you already know, these languages are pretty similar, and rich history behind them.
本当か
honestly speaking, while watching k dramas and learning the alphabet made it easier to understand the phrases and words sometimes it just pops up in my head, I never really focused on output since I was fully immersed with the input
Yes. Definitely.
I agree, worry about input first than speak later on. What has helped me for speaking is getting a tutor to write a quick report which consists of some of the things I said incorrectly. Rather than explanations, I just want to see the sentence. This report is written in Japanese (my target language) too.
By the way, Steve Kaufmann has said similar things about input vs output in the past. Happy to connect you two if you'd like.
Keep up the good work, Phoenix.
在我的认为里，为啥听比说重要（因为读和写属于高效率AI替代，优先级最后，除非学术），因为对于语言来说，最重要的是沟通，最重要是要听懂对方在说什么，大致意思是什么，而自己要说的，比如英语，会有几十种的回答都能反应出你要说的话，对于非语言专业的人来说，口语母语化真的重要吗？如果用母语来回答，可能只有几个句式，或者是一个句式，但是Why,我本就不是母语者，听懂再回馈才是最重要的，哪怕我要表达的意思是次级的，表达是一种惯性，就像程序里面的，first，else, or…只不过把它变为本能而已。有效性，效率，我认为才是语言的本质，没有人会为了一生中半个小时的阅读或者谈话，而去学习一门新的语言，这是不符合价值的。仅仅出于我个人观点。
太了不起了！
I just subscribed. Hope your channel will become viral.
Thanks for the sub!
You sound like a southerner from the United States very good English!
Thanks! My accent is really all over the place. I sound a bit different everyday haha
谢谢你，作者大大！我正在学习日语，坚持comprehensive input原则，不断听，尝试用日文思考。可是自己的日文能力跟中文英文真的差很远，而且进步很慢，难免有些沮丧。不过看到这条视频又充满了信心，我才学两个月，一定是要继续坚持才会有收获。希望有天我也能讲一口流利的日文😊
交流是一种互动式学习方式，他会让你的大脑被动去记忆对方的说话习惯和单词意思，同时大脑的理解也比你主动学习要深刻形象的多，所以更利于学习和掌握一门语言。
For some the input hypothesis feels counterintuitive, so I put together a video series #opetp to give people a personal experience of subconscious acquisition in the shortest possible time.
It's 30 stories, 20 minutes each, in a tiny conlang called Toki Pona. I've interviewed 9 people who watched them all so far and they're all conversational.
I'm still not convinced that you can acquire the correct use of the Subjunctive Mood in Spanish (which is a "thing" in Spanish) primarily by listening and reading. With alot of verbs it's going to be hard to hear because the change can be as small as a vowel. It can be recognized while reading as there are subjunctive triggers but you have to study them and you have to recognize that a verb that you're reading is actually in the subjunctive. That, too, you have to study.
quick question: are you a native English speaker?
Haha nope. Mandarin Chinese is my only native language.
@@phoenixhou4486 haha that's crazy dude, your enunciation is really good! Nice work!
@@phoenixhou4486 Your diction is scarily impressive 😨
Ton français est vraiment de haut niveau dans cette vidéo 🥸.
😂😂😂😂😂
Currently on my Chinese language journey, thanks for your ideas!
Best of luck on your Chinese-learning journey!
我需要它！
Muchas gracias por este contenido 🙂👏🏻
Gracias!
hi, i'm from japan and a foreign language learner. i do like your pronunciation🙌
Thank you!!
是啦！ 今天也谢谢你的分享 可以加快更新吗～
谢谢！我尽量 平时要工作哈哈
I enjoy ur videos. I would disagree with having a teacher constantly correct you though (purely from a motivational standpoint). I think you may also be hard pressed to find long term studies on the impact of fossilization on acquiring a L2/3. Even then I would argue it’s not that important perhaps in research or academics only. For most learners who want to reach a conversational level with some mistakes just realize it’s gonna take a lot of time and both input and output (lots of them).
Well output should be fine as long as the learner is aware of his mistakes
Stephan Krashen, the creator of the term comrehsible input. agrees. After much research they found that mistake correction is actually not so important and can be detrimental.
You are wrong
sure why not
well said!! It did give me a lot to think about. Thanks! Mr.?
我很同意
Different hypothesis of foreign language acquiring are intriguing. I wanna ask ,is there some hypothesis to explain why would I miss the last sentence after I say another,especially in the early beginning of a new language ?Thx
"nature habits". nature is a verb here. I have never seen such usage of the word nature.
helpful.这样的内容请来一打
哈哈哈哈收到！
Thanks!
I totally agree!
所以“输入高于输出”这个观点的解释在于，过早的输出会导致养成错误的习惯。那么只要解决这个问题，在一开始输出的时候就注重这一点，及时避开或纠正掉这些错误的表达习惯，也许就可以解决掉这种错误的石化。我说说我自己的观点，输入和输出同等重要，或者说都是语言的必备部分而无法去比较谁高谁低，在输入的同时做好输出，在宿儒和输出之间做好动态平衡，输入过多输出过少会形成哑巴语言，输入过少输出过多就会像视频讲的一样会导致错误的语言习惯
确实，不过刚开始学很难自主地避开和纠正错误，尤其是急于与人交流的时候。
勉強になりました ありがとうございます。
Thank you so much for introducing these theories! I've been abroad for four months and when I look back I feel so frustrated since I don't think myself making much progress in English(not just in speaking), which precisely described by the word 'fossilize'. Gonna change my strategy rn!
So true! Comprehensible input is the only technique that works. I’m learning japanese and comprehensible input is the only way that works for me
Every human, doesn’t matter what age, has the ability to understand ANY language just by learning through comprehensible input
You're right! Thanks a lot for your advices. Greetings from Argentina
Thanks for your support! Gracias amigo!
你看起来年轻了好多哈哈哈
因为刮了胡子吗哈哈哈哈哈
thanks! super informative
video gives a very cozy feel. nice southern accent and beer.
I understand this easier than my latest 3 credits of Language Learning course at Uni
Happy to see you. Thank you.
Thanks!
Because you’re a native Mandarin speaker, did you find English hard to learn?
Not very hard 🤔
今天我遇到你的平道，我觉得你学新语言的概念很赞。我刚开始学我第三个语言，但我忘了学第二个语言的循序，这个视频让我重新学习怎么进行！
不是“平道”，是“频道”😁
@@jadet.9563 好啦🤣
好棒！醍醐灌顶！深思中
嘿嘿谢谢捧场！
Honestly this made me fee pretty bad. I've studied Chinese on and off for 5 years. I work full time in software engineering and that requires much study itself. I improve by practicing oral communication. No I'm not as fluent as your English (maybe I never will be) and I don't have a great handle on grammar but I do improve with every conversation. It's better than not improving at all.
The most important is to improve. Trust yourself, u know what u need to work on. And this is the best way to learn
真的厲害，bro
You are right.
You say that the research heavily backs the idea that talking early fossizilises your grammar, but then advocate for verbal correction of grammar, which I'm pretty sure the research is very much against
Research is against verbal correction because it kills the learner’s motivation and interest in the language, so it should be fine if the learner is physiologically prepared for and actively seeking corrections .
Apples and oranges. Both are important, unless you are an outlier who only wants to be able to read. Saying one is more important than the other is very strange, unless you come up with some special definition of "important".
No actually. English is my second language and whatever he’s saying 100% correct. I’m telling you, literally obsess over input and it’ll all make sense one day. You will see that you’re able to talk in Mandarin with a Chinese couple in need of help perfectly! At least that’s what’s happened to me.