I can't speak for most people with autism but I personally have had an easier time looking people in the eyes and holding conversations as I get older so I don't find Helena's characterization contradictory.
I agree that it wouldn't be contradictory if Helena was autistic. But I view the visions as a form of neurodiversity which creates autistic type traits but not necessarily meeting the diagnostic criteria for autism. It's a plausible hypothesis though
Yep, same here, hated being touched esp by strangers (sitting on a bus), would have panic attacks over eye contract, once I got into my 20's I thought about it and worked on not letting it bother me.
Yeah, I immediately went to masking. I know that the visions are not an autistic trait, but this is a fantasy show. You could say the same thing about dragon riding. Just because she has visions doesn’t mean she isn’t also coded as autistic. I genuinely enjoy and admire Preston (and Carmine), but I think that his view on this is not him at his best. I know he didn’t mean it and he is a good person with good intentions, but some of his comments came across a bit condescending to people with ASD in the livestream. I think that autistic people seeing some kinship in Helaena is a valid reading of her character. Preston should just let us autists have this one. People can be more than one thing and ASD is very complex and the community is very diverse. There’s too much in Helaena that comes though and rings true for it to be unintentional on the part of the writers and the actresses. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
29:16 Just have to refute the notion here that "In real life, siblings look alike". This is clearly not always the case. I have a large family and half of my siblings look one way, half look another (each half primarily taking after one parent, respectively). But with my closest brother for instance, you'd never be able to tell we were related we look so different. People often don't even believe it. So that point doesn't take me out of a TV show or other media.
He was mad the attempt wouldn't succeed and therefore just cause useless antagonism instead of ending a war. Or at least turning the war into the Realm against Damon, which would be easier.
Something missed by a lot of people I'm noticing is the foreshading in the scene before Ulf, we get a very deliberately framed shot of a boy with a puppet dragon and a prostitute dropping a coinpurse from a window, and the two overlap when she does so it looks like someone is falling from the back of a dragon.
I have to say that the scene I appreciate the most was the opening between the Blackwoods and Brackens because, finally, for the first time in ASOIAF, the Blackwoods are presented as the arrogant dicks for once and the Brackens are shown in a somewhat sympathetic light. The main series keeps trying to pretend this is a commentary on the pointlessness of ancient blood feuds, but it’s not. The Blackwoods are a bunch of honourable badasses and the Brackens are a bunch of stuck up jerks, it’s actually a very one sided conflict morally speaking that only ever leaves you rooting for one side and one side only. So I cannot thank the show enough for finally introducing some ambiguity into this situation, even leaving the possibility open that the Blackwoods started a fight over stones the Brackens never moved, because this REALLY needed it and it truly cements the horror of the next scene showing a mountain of corpses leaving you shocked by the needless violence and not just upset that some Brackens survived and too many Blackwoods died, like it is in m the books.
The honor and demeanor of both houses is pretty irrelevant to the pointlessness of their feud and what comes out of it. Be good, be bad, doesn't matter, they are still throwing peasants to death over nothing, which is what the main series portrays. The change doesn't add much here, it's still the same scenario for anyone watching the show. Two random houses who no one knows fighting → cut to battlefield. It's not a negative change, it's not positive either. It's pretty unremarkable for anyone but book fans who have feelings for these two houses and their feud.
It's a shame the show didn't use that theme on the feud between the greens and the blacks and keeps painting one side as the heroes and the other as the vilains.
“Clever use of trees to depower the dragons.” Good point Preston. Not too many other clever ways for the show writers to use all their trees. The only other uses coming to mind are standing, shading, maybe some waving in the wind. Good on them for finding a more clever way to use their trees!
Preston is always so on point. His posture on logic in writing is so good. That's why sometimes when you watch or read so many good stuff and you get delivered crumbs you feel so disappointed.
Sure but sometimes he just straight up gets things wrong or misses the point. See @jasonmoore7223's comment about Otto being mad about the ratcatchers rather than merely the Cargyll assassination, or his weird insistence that you shouldn't happen to look like the _Pieta_ pose unless it's a specific comparison to Jesus.
@@coreyander286 how is he wrong about the Pietà scene? First off, if the show is really geared to casual watchers, most people won’t get the reference of significance. Secondly, Aemond is nothing like Jesus so what’s the pose supposed to imply? What’s the point of it other than it being a cinematographically cool shot?
@@playea123 But that's exactly what they're saying. It's literally just a shot that shows that Aemond has mommy issues and tells us a bit about him. That's it. It has nothing to do with Jesus. But Preston insisted that the show is making a direct comparison between Aemond and Jesus because it vaguely looks like the Pieta. And he criticized the show for that. Which is silly imo. Preston read way too much into a simple shot that conveys mothering.
@@playea123 bc it makes no sense to think it’s a Pieta reference. Maybe if he was face up being cradled in both of her arms I would see it. But no he is just curled up in her lap. He just happens to be tall and skinny. If anything it reminded more of John Lennon & Yoko Ono. I love Preston but he’s way off on this one. It’s obviously just showing he has mommy issues. There’s no comparison to Jesus at all.
@@MarkHogan994 yeah I misunderstood what people were having an issue with. I thought people were agreeing that it was a pietà shot but disagreed with Preston on the significance of
While I missed Preston in the pod, I truthfully enjoyed Trey’s positivity and openness to enjoy the show. I also find that Carmine back tracks some previously positive comments to go along with Preston’s tougher criticism.
Eh… that’s a good idea in theory. But how would Daemon be able to escape alive? How would he be able to convince other people to be dumb enough to attack a royal in a public place? Blood and cheese in the show were pretty dumb, but not that dumb. They had an escape plan, while ambitious, was possible enough that they thought it would work. TBH the only way it would’ve worked is if they poisoned Aemond or if they hired a faceless man. But the prior only works if they had contacts in Kings Landing, which they don’t really have. And they lack the coin for a faceless man.
Mysaria isn't the super spy people think she is. She's convinced Ser Otto tried to kill her when the viewers (or at least those who have thought about it) know it was Larys.
Preston’s gotta have the most calming voice in this fandom, dude could talk me into driving into a tree. Also, loved the episode guys, great discussion.
HotD is doing something different. Preston wants psycho killers, but the show is humanising everyone. They're showing the horror of real life - the mundanity of horror. Ordinary people just doing what they always do - "I was only following orders."
It's maddening that Twitter calls her the only sane person who doesn't want unnecessary bloodshed. I don't think the writers remember that S1 scene either.
Like every mantle passed on from generation to generation, from father to son, from king to king, every burden must be taken away and bequeathed unto another. And so it was that in this episode that Cregan’s actor gave the responsibility of having a terribly ill fitting and out of place accent to Alys Rivers’ actress, just as it was given to him by Mysaria before him. The cycle of burdens is ever unending. 😔
@@Elle-tb8tiShe sounded so American, it was SO out of place for a series which has had a pretty consistent aesthetic of English or English sounding accents. 😂
I've always felt that young Rhaenyra and Alicent being played as "lesbians" is very true to real life young female friendships. They can be so intense and all consuming that often they can be confused with feelings of sexual/romantic love for eachother. Often, girls will either grow apart, realise they're gay or they stay friends but the friendship "cools" with age and those sexual feelings disappear. So to me, the fact the older actors don't play them as being gay makes sense. Especially as they've fallen out with each other, those intense feelings of love can quickly become all consuming senseless hate as well. On Helaena being autistic; I just assumed that the older actor was playing someone with autism who had learnt to "mask". Many of us with autism learn this ability as we age and realise that our autistic traits garner attention (that we don't want!) masking is the lesser of two evils. Helaena does for the most part still avoid physical contact and eye contact. She only gives eye contact when she absolutely must, same for physical.
jesus dude, its got to be exhausting watching a show through your perspective. them being lesbian or not means nothing, young relationships are always intense platonic or romantic because u literally have fuck all to worry about.
The show doesn't say that the eggs are Daenerys's, the writer did in an external interview. In terms of the story, it would make sense for Rhaenyra to send unhatched eggs for Rhaena, Aegon III, and Viserys II with them so that they could potentially have their own dragons. So in terms of the what the show does I don't think there's anything wrong with the eggs being there.
20:51 Otto specifically tried to take out rhaenyra BEFORE she knew her father was dead. Once they missed that opportunity, he considered the window closed. The way aegon did it was crude and reckless, not at all Otto's style
@@OfficialRedTeamReview no they didn't, and I agree that inconsistent writing has plagued this show from the beginning. But that doesn't mean logic can't be found in there somewhere.
Otto is inconsistent but that's precisely the point (imo). It's been made clear by the show that Alicent uses her faith as a tool to reinforce her own desires as just. She feels wronged by Rhaenyra's flaunting of social conventions (the seed is strong...) as she was forced to abide to and was then harmed by those said social conventions. I wonder if we may yet learn more about Otto's backstory, but it's clear that he sees virtues, principles and behaviour in general as a means to an end: to grow the status of the Hightower name. When Alicent "breaks" the rules by trying to stab Rhaenyra, Otto commends her because he needs Rhaenyra dead if he is to succeed in his goal. I doubt Otto would have commended Alicent for "breaking the rules" if she had avoided her "duty" to "comfort" Viserys. So, when Otto reprimands Aegon (II) as "callous and feckless" he is simply plucking the most "feathered" adjectives for "naughty boy" from his vocabulary. Otto later calls Aegon and Aemon "peacocks," likening their aggression and recklessness as their feathers. This I believe to be the show-writers mirroring Criston's arc from the same episode, in which we clearly see he is projecting. Otto is also projecting here, but in a more subtle way, as he always does. Otto does not value any particular virtue, principle or behaviour but rather values bias and preference. If we can continue to use Alicent's relationship to Otto as an example of the mirroring of Otto's own behaviour - her exclamation of "but he (Otto) would be partial to me" in S1 is another clue towards Otto's lack of a moral compass. Otto's true value lies in cautious and careful consideration, followed by going all in on the "perfectly caclulated" opportunity to stike (e.g. Visery's death). Furthermore, causes for autism have been linked to genetics. Halaena is pretty squarely autistic-coded, so either Alicent or Viserys had to have been autistic. If Alicent is autistic (and may be considered more "high-masking") then either Otto or Otto's wife must have been autistic too. And before you dismiss the importance of this factor, please consider this. The myers-brigg personality test is rudimentary yet can provide some basic insight into human behaviour. The INFP personality type is ascribed as "mediators" and famous among them is J.R.R. tolkien, who I assume anyone reading this comment understands the links to this discussion. The INFP personality type is also commonly colloquially likened to individuals with autism - citing similarities like a strong sense of justice or truth and enhanced pattern recognition (come on guys think of Halaena). And you don't get (intentionally) "distracted" * from finishing the most commercially successful fantasty series since LOTR to write Fire and Blood if you don't have a bit of the tism. * GRRM has said in an interview (pre-success of GOT) that if he wanted to create the next LOTR, he would use the "downtime" in-between the release of novels to generate hype and success. The last ASOIAF book was published the year GOT aired. GOT wasn't analysed as marketable, scripted, casted, filmed edited and released in less than a year. ADOD was published the year of GOT being aired as that was the last time Martin actually had a self-imposed deadline - to finish the next book before the show comes out, so that he can absolutely rake in the hype for his next book for the foreseeable future. Back to Otto. He's "inconsistent" yes, but because he's got a bit of the tism. P.s. I have the card
The whoopsies also accompany actual intent. Alicient had the whoopsie but Otto and the council were planning to overthrow Rhaenyra the whole time. Daemon wanted Aemond dead but the whoopsie was that Jahaerys was killed instead (not so much of a whoopsie). And we never heard what he told blood and cheese so maybe he did tell them to kill Jahaerys as a last resort band he didn't want to look like the total bad guy to Rhaenyra. Vhagar killing Luke is a little different because Aemond is flying this massive dragon that has a mind of its own. He has that hate towards Luke for taking his eye but he never wanted him dead either.
Autists quite often learn how to mask their autism over time. If child Haleana shows clear signs of autism and adult Haleana doesn't that would be a realistic depiction of an autistic person.
Trying to frame everything as "they're benevolent and want to avoid war" is so silly. The years of tension... Summoning Rhynera moments after child birth to go "another bastard I see", stealing her throne, blinding aemond, alicent trying to blind Luke, killing Luke, killing jaherys... And they're still looking for a peaceful solution? What solution, seriously. I'd like them more if after Luke it was "right, how do we kill them all" I don't need to like daemon to find him interesting, why do I need to like the rest of them...
The whole Rhaenyra/Alicent scene struck me as the showrunners and writers desperately wanting to have a "one last drink before the war" scene. The last moment of peace before everything changes forever. But instead of that, we get this whacky D&D Disguise Self scene where the woman whose silver hair is hanging out of the corners of the habit manages to get close to the Queen and pull a knife on her literally days after a high-profile political assassination. I just kinda laughed at it. Nothing was achieved and they just kinda walk away.
i think aegon changed a lot because at first he didnt want to be king, just live carelessly and without consequences. but then accepted it and kinda grew into his role. just seems abrupt because we see him only a couple of times
00:20:11 Tbf, Otto wanted to send swords before they found out about Viseysses death which made way more sense then, as it would have been way easier. He also said it out loud in public so that in true bloodraven Hand of the King fashion, his King would have his own hands clean after the deed is done. Ending the war & securing the future in one fell swoop?
The real reason Otto lost it is because he dirtied his hands in the most idiotic way. Killing hundreds of men to kill one which could have been found in due time had Aegon been patient. decades of planning where thrown out the window by one act of someone who should be able to think for himself by now, in his eyes...
I feel like Otto calling it a "prank" showed why he was mad about it. Sending one dude to go kill the most protected person on an isolated island is not only very unlikely, but is also very likely to make things worse. Even if it did work thiugh, yes, it would hurt the Blacks, but they would still be fighting for Jace or Daemon anyway most likely, so even the absolute best case scenario wouldn't do much. In fact, considering how much Otto hates Daemon, killing Rhaenyra may even be worse for the Greens because then you'd have an unchecked Daemon doing whatever the hell. Again, this is all considering the fact that the plan was extremely likely to not work out. I mean all the greens need to do from Ottos perspective is protext King's landing and slowly consolidate power through political moves and ravens. With Vhagar, Sunfyre, Dreamfyre, etc, they're extremely hard to take down, at least not for some time. So agitating the greens, and potentially handing the reigns of power to Daemon would be the opposite of buying time and defending their position. It makes sense to me.
My only thoughts about the Blood and Cheese making mistakes and being spooked themselves etc. I think they're just trying to humanise them. To show that there's no such thing as monsters, half the time they're just people. In this case one could argue, starving people who are desperate for money or just straight up greedy. They fuck up because they're just normal people who ended up in a desperate situation. I guess?? The Oops! That was an accident! Moments I think again, are to show that a lot of wars and such can be down to petty or just straight up stupid accidents?
44:20 - The only reason for showing Aemond in a Pieta scene is hinting that he's going to die very soon. The Pieta is and was used in war memorials to represent women mourning soldiers (none of said soldiers of course was anything like Jesus). That's why I think it is a foreshadowing.
Of course practically everyone is gonna die in this war so I'm not sure why Aemond is being particularly singled out. Maybe it's because he's such a loyal soldier.
Yea I’m annoyed with them trying to make show cannon Syrax the mother of Dany’s dragons lol. Why make Dreamfyre look exactly like Drogon then. This new twist isn’t interesting at all. Just forcing more of a Rhaenyra & Dany connection. Changes should add to the story, not be fan service
@@SantiagoGarza-bg9wpI mean okay, that’s why I was commenting MY opinion lmao. It’s indicative of superfluous writing choices which they’ve already displayed.
Just once i want carmine to ask "preston you mind if we wrap it up here" and preston to say yes i do mind and go on a 40 minute rant about something completely random
And here I was, worried this podcast was no more…. Tbh, I half thought Carmine might have served Preston with divorce papers at some point since last season, culminating with a vicious custody battle that ended with Preston only allowed to see Trey the Explainer every other weekend. I’m glad to be wrong.
Carmine in the early reviews for the season you literally said "You can't blame the show for alluding to Game of Thrones, it's a prequel". Maybe this is what they were referring to and you were quick to judgement?
@@OfficialRedTeamReview It's the one where you talk about early reviews for Season 2. Part of it mentions that there are many tie-ins that needlessly reminds the audience of GOT and you and Preston defended the show against it, but I think stuff like this (and presumably more) is what it was referring to
@@secondeye1574 Just re-watched the video you're talking about and the only thing that comes remotely close to what you said is at around 11 minutes 30 seconds in that video where the reviewer complained about alluding to the white walkers. I defended *that* part because its a prequel and that the characters don't know when the walker threat will be coming. The reviewer was talking as if the prophecy has a specific start date and it doesn't and he complained that the prophecy is moot because none of whats happening now matters in the future....but our characters don't know that. That's massively different than shoving member berries in our face which is what the eggs were. Also keep in mind that Preston and I didn't know what they were referencing, other than the walker stuff, because they kept it spoiler free and they got to watch the first few episodes. we didnt
@@OfficialRedTeamReview I agree that they are not technically contradictory positions: The white walker stuff can be acceptable while the egg stuff can be bad. I'm just saying you may have jumped the gun a bit by assuming the review was being "incredibly dumb". I also think it's a glaring error to say "it's a prequel" as a defense, because you could make the same argument for showing Daenerys' dragon eggs. Obviously both are done for prequel reasons, but neither is necessary for a prequel and these were choices the writer/s made because they wanted to. They weren't forced into doing this. I'd also disagree that the eggs were forced in because it's a visual that a lot of people probably missed, compared to the Aegon prophecy stuff which was dialogue that most viewers would have picked up on.
Damn…Preston has a good point about the threes company and everything being an oopsy of miscommunication. If the story isn’t about the cost of revenge, I don’t know what its about.
I think the legality of the Blood and Cheese adaptation that Ryan Condal was alluding to was the choice to have the twins be asleep. I think the legality would’ve become an issue if they put the child actors through the distress that a more accurate B&C portrayal would necessitate.
No mention of Daemon getting spooked by the BATS at Harrenhall? 🦇 🦇 🦇 🦇 Definitely a Lothston reference. Would have thought Preston would be all over that considering that's where Sweet Robin and Brann get half their mutant psychic powers from.
Disagree on all the whoopsies. Aemond would have been happy for Luke to cut out his eye, the Greens were gonna do their coup with or without Alicent, Daemon didn't whoopsie Jaeherys, he's itching for war. All these people made choices and inch by inch things have built up to a point they can't be stopped.
You know what dumb shit is going to be added to oopsie whoopsie? Rhaenys goes to protect Rooks Rest. Aemond sees Rhaenys and stops his dragon from attacking her. But Sunfyre slams into them from above and in the chaos Vhagar gets pissed and basically roasts all who she can. Oopsie ! Aemond is a good guy, she didn't want to kill Rhaenys Aegon is the bad guy and Vhagar is just old and done with everyone's shit. Aemond is not a kindlayer guys, he remembered how Rhaenys spared his life. Men cannot control dragons. Its all a misunderstanding guys! BOO HOOO
I think in the writers’ minds the misunderstandings are supposed to make it even more Shakespearean and tragic. Although B&C doesn’t count bc it’s clear they want us to understand that Damon was fine with them going for any son. also, during season 1 promo Olivia Cooke did talk about her own head cannon of Alicent and Rhaenyra having a romantic connection in their past. She’s called Alicent closeted and everything
It doesn't help that Alicent has never had a satisfactory relationship with a man. I feel for her. Despite her high position her life has been a succession of disappointments.
While the setup for the end of episode 3 might have been strange, I really feel like the dialogue saved it. Remember, this is the same universe where a Targaryen snuck into King’s landing in a sack of corn and stole a dragon.
@@Jamesxx15 I didn't say if they were right or not, I was just praising the performances through that clunky dialogue. They could literally have had this conversation in a few episodes time without all the bullshit
@@kizura8294I agree that all the oops moments are stupid, but this conversation actually addressed one of them and made it clear to Rhaenyra that peace is not an option.
21:55 I mean, presumably a bunch of Aegon's Bros in the Kingsguard will die through the War. Also sure, Aegon is likeable/sympathethic. That does not necessarily make him a good person, or even an ok/mediocre person. He could still be kind of a jerk and sympathethic. 29:12 That's a misconception. They didn't eat enough sugar for their teeth to get bad so their teeth were surprisingly healthy. Also regarding Star Wars, Clone Wars were far from unimportant even in the originals. They are the thing that connects Leia to Obi-wan, and similarly connect Anakin and Obi-wan to each other in addition to the Anakin being Obi-wan's student (been a while since I watched a New Hope but I am not sure it was ever stated that Anakin was Obi-wan's student in that. Vader is mentioned as his student but as far as that movie is concerned Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are different people. Obi-wan mentions him as a pilot and "a good friend"). So they are pretty important in that they are what connects Obi-wan (and Jedi in general when one thinks about it) to Luke and Leia. Moreover, you could disagree with the decision of having the first Prequel movie be about Anakin as a child rather than him already being closer to Luke's age at a New Hope and a Jedi. But once that was decided on I would say that showing the Clone Wars in the other movies to some degree would be something of a necessity as it is the basically the most important event we hear about in the Original Trilogy that would be in the time of the Prequels. If episodes two and three were entirely disconnected from the Clone Wars (which would probably mean no Clone Wars multimedia project as we knew it, likely no Clone Wars 3D animated series as well) then fans would most likely complain about not being shown anything about the Clone Wars. 45:00 He is not held like Jesus, he is held like a baby. Ah, good you get there later. I am not sure if you could call that simple. I mean, surface level, perhaps but it is not as if Jesus imagery (if intended) would have been subtle. Aemond showing his vulnerability here and not anywhere else and him longing for motherly/family love are symbolic enough. It is not like this is some basic two dimensional characteristics.
Helaena covering her ears when Vaemond was killed was the clearest autistic trait they could have done imo. It's the closest thing they could have done to putting up a sign for the audience.
True, but I also like the interpretation that it is a side effect of her very strong "Dreamer"ness, and thus not _explicitly_ autism, just comparable in many ways...
Carmine will hate me for this but I did find episode 2 kinda boring. In ep1 Criston and Aemond were talking about battle strategy and what they will do but none of that comes into fruition in ep2. I expect there to be a sense of urgency and for the crown to add the levies of the crownlands but instead we see Alicent in a bath saying nothing and Aemond in a brothel and people teleporting on boats. The time inconsistency has got to be my biggest criticism of Season 2 and it was encapsulated in ep2. I really liked ep3 because Daemon finally takes action as does Cole and we see troops finally leaving KL and Rhaenyra’s council start actually urging to do something. The Dance began in S1E9 and it takes us till S2E3 to finally see shit being done.
Rightly or wrongly, I see why they had Blood and Cheese as the victims in a horror movie, because they _were_ doomed to get caught by the dragons afterwards and suffer their wrath, along with so many other smallfolk. One of the horror movie moments was the one looking at a tapestry of dragons burning stuff, I think.
Good point. The Targarayens aren't really good guys. We just seen things mostly from their pov. I'm glad this show is giving us more smallfolk moments than GoT did.
On your point about the showrunner making Alicent and Rhaenyra more likeable than in the book, I feel like they have to do that now, because after Rook's Rest they will both start moving down the road to revenge that you were talking about. The showrunners want us to empathise with the characters now, so we remain attached to them when they start carrying out more extreme acts
I don't have a problem with Raenyes saying 'Otto wouldn't do that' she has miss judged Otto, that's a possibility. And the greens always had a level of hypocrisy and narcissism. It still fits.
Surprisingly, tooth quality in history "long ago" was actually pretty well - though admittedly in particular for people who had no access to sugary luxury foods...
I think the point about blood & cheese is a great point about the show Generally, there is a certain Lack of mystery in hotd as compared to got. B&C could have been a season or several season mystery on who was behind the attack and what specifically happened but it was too obvious
Just wondering, when Condal says they couldn't do it legally, are we sure he's not talking about child actors (especially that young) with very violent dialogue? I thought that's why we didn't have a scene of the children waking up and off-screened the death. I can't imagine traumatizing children with parents on set for a scene of their actor mother Sophie's choicing.
No Black Aly, would it have been the most opportune time to introduce her? Agreed that ending on Daemon would have been better. Great discussion as always you two!
Helaena's attitude in episode 3 is explained by her eventual suicide. Suicidal people can go through a period where they appear normal, content even, making up with their family (forgiving ber mother) and making peace with it, almost, before they go through the act of suicide.
Is Carmine aware of Fraternal twins? Surely he is. Totally possible with Baela and Rhaena. Edit: They are NOT twins in the show! Baela is 2 years older than Rhaena.
@@bshaddoHotD specifically is HORRIBLE with ages. Alicent looks the same age as all 3 of her children. Criston Cole and Daemon haven’t aged a day in 20 years
@@OfficialRedTeamReview Well shit, according to the wiki (and HBO's Official Guide), Baela is 2 years older than Rhaena. So, uh. Yeah! They really aren't twins afterall.
I liked episode 3 better and episode 2 and I don’t care who hears it. Damon’s cold takeover of Harrenhal was perfect. The end revelation for Alicent that she was dead wrong and how she reacted. Perfect moment! I have watched Game of Thrones and I have read the books and Dunk and Egg and the stupid history book where this show comes from and I thought this was the most like Thrones I’ve seen so far. So many commentators here just copy each other. You are all wrong, episode 3 is way better than the last one. I love political talk but key moments are just more bloody interesting ffs.
Just starting watching this podcast again, so fun! Really hate that they keep trying to portray the Dance as just a series of mistakes. S1 makes it clear and obvious that the real reason they don't want Rhaenyra to take the throne is because she's a woman. It's not about what name Viserys uttered before he died. After Episode 2, Rhaenyra should know it's time to go to war. Why the watering down of her and Alicent? It's disappointing.
I agree that there are mistakes being made, but I don't think the "oopsies" are among them. I think the spectacle at the end of season 1 episodes 5 & 9 were really frustrating because they brought down otherwise excellent episodes. I think the biggest mistake was making Viserys' illness be the cause of his death, because it makes him look really stupid for not shoring up Rhaenyra's ascension. He knew that there would be resistance to a woman monarch which is evidenced by the vows he had the lords swear at the end of episode 1. So why not make her hand, if you know you are dying??? This is the only aspect of the book Viserys that I think is superior to the show, since his death in the book was sudden and unexpected, it's reasonable to assume that he died with unrealized plans for helping Rhaenyra. I think "oopsie" is kind of reductive for the Vhagar incident because it shows us that the dragons cannot be controlled, and that fact is lost to history. I find that more interesting than Aemond being a blood thirsty maniac. It also has greater implications for the war to come. The prophecy is one of the best revelations to this story, in my opinion, because it humanizes the conquest and the people participating in it. It also is effectively showing a contrast between the power of dragons against the power of prophecy. It being written on the dagger also gives a symbol of that prophecy as a weapon. So the prophecy isn't an "oopsie;" it's another weapon of the war. It could be misused, abused, misunderstood, but definitely dangerous. You could infer that the prophecy was a weapon that was in the hands (Viserys) of someone that could no longer wield it responsibly.
About Preston's Rant about motherhood...In a world of men and patriarchy, women character tend to cinque to the one role known and taught to them. However strong power deterministic smart its only natural that the mother tenderness as a force of balancing contradict the role of men's destructive nature
I find they are making Aegon II too easily loathable. Whereas Rhaenyra is depicted to be more 'evil', to put it simply, than in the books. More and more I think this is a terrible adaptation and a very good show.
43:20 actually i think it still is a tale about what happens when u let bitterness and revenge consume u...a more realistic take on it by showing all the "whoopsies"..when your bitterness and need for revenge has "consumed" u its common for hasty and rushed lashing out to lead to whoopsies...no..?
I’ve worked in film and television and it’s complete nonsense that they couldn’t do blood and cheese legally. There are very convincing ways to film things happening to and in front of children without the child being traumatised or even understanding what is occurring in the scene. The original The Exorcist has scenes of a young girl stabbing her genitals with a crucifix while blood splatters on her mothers face… that a whole film was made without traumatising 12 year old Linda Blair, despite the news media rumours at the time that the film drove her crazy. If you have just a little bit of creativity, you could figure out how to do a truly horrifying blood and cheese without breaking a single law or ethical guideline.
Preston, I know you rarely read comments, but *please* drop the "Helena isn't autistic" thing. While I absolutely agree with it from a skeptical atheist perspective (we don't have any evidence of intent from the writers, aside from what's on screen, it COULD be something else), I'm also mildly autistic and it's really important to a lot of autistic people who see themselves in her. It's just tasteless. You won't die on the hill, but please move to a different one, please. Also, it would really, really, really disappoint Glidus if she was confirmed to not be autistic. Can we at least agree she's neurodivergent?
@@Jamesxx15 Source? Ah, yes, passion about a subject is clearly bad, and obviously I'm very upset while making a polite plea to one of my favorite creators to stop demanding evidence for one thing while simultaneously accepting other things as fact with far less if not no evidence. My dude, I'm calm as can be. Just because *you* would only say something like that if you were crying your eyes out does not make that so for everyone else.
@@randeli7785 Does it, though? I'm just a very verbose person dude, and I type fast. If I spend an hour on a comment I can get it to be short (sometimes, anyway) but in like 2-3 minutes max I can write 10 paragraphs. Doesn't matter how chill I am.
You are bang on about their being no continuity. I was pissed about Aegon being criticized about Otto's original plan! And how they ruined Alicent and Rhaenyra finally meeting. In season 1 episode 8, Alicent asks Rhaenyra to stay and Rhaenyra says that she will "be back on dragon back". For me that foreshadowed them finally meeting when Rhaenyra takes over Kings Landing on Syrax. Now that scene has lost its significance. Also, septa costume or not, NOBODY recognizes the woman who wad heir to the throne for 20 years? No goldcloak? No guard? When it comes to the dragon egg scene I thought they wanted to emphasize how much faith Rhaenyra had in Rhaena and how much she was honoring her. Alicent in season 1 episode 6 says that everyone knows that Aegon is the rightful heir and will be king. That has clearly been Ottos's long term plan. So why is she so shocked when her council wants to usurp the throne?
so you're mad that... a "forshadowing" you made up in your head didn't happen? That's a new level of making up shit to be mad about Rhanyra did not reside in Kingslanding for years by this point, and everything but her face and a strand of white is hidden, it's really not that hard to imagine that no-one recognises her unless you're trying to find something to be angry about Otto's plan in episode 9 was different because the crucial detail everyone is missing, there was no fucking war yet, infact the greens and the blacks seemed to be on quite great terms, if some kingsguard showed up there was no reason to be suspicious until too late
@@vinogr00nko93Obviously they're upset that what could have been decent foreshadowing was invalidated by such a poor scene - if there had been logic and purpose to the scene, it could have been a decent subversion of expectations based on that S01 scene. But you don't sound like you're arguing in good faith anyway, so these words are probably a waste of my time.
@@RPanda3S "I'm not argung in good faith"??? I'm defending some of the scenes I don't even fully like because the criticism is forced and not grounded in logic
I don't like the very Star Wars impulse in media to explain everything and tie it back together, and maybe the camera lingered a little too lovingly on those dragon eggs. But, they came from somewhere. Rhaena's gotta go back to the Vale with some dragon eggs. Why not give media youtubers somthing to put in their red circles?
All of the sudden Carmine understands that these episodes have been much less stellar than he has been saying throughout the whole time Preston hasn’t been here? Hilarious
You know what's funny about your comment? Is that we actually discussed those episodes within the first 5 minutes of this video to which Preston agreed with me on every point. It's almost as though you didn't watch the video and assumed that's what happened. We both agreed Episode 1 was fine, ending could've been better and that Episode 2 was amazing. I can timestamp those for you since you're too lazy or dumb to do it yourself? It's no problem at all really
@playea123 I watch both of their reviews and the stream, not once did carmine change his views based on who he's on with unless you're making that up? edit: yeah i just got past the 5 minute mark, they both agree the episodes are good just issues here and there have issues. thats exactly what carmine has said these past few weeks. there wasn't anything different?
@@OfficialRedTeamReview buddy, you literally sighed and went “listen it wasn’t a bad episode. We have seen bad episodes before” whereas in every other review you’ve done about these episodes without Preston, you have raved about how good these episodes have been. Yeah. Preston didn’t come out and say “you are an idiot for not noticing these obvious retarded decisions the writers have made” so I guess he “agreed” with you on every point. The fact that you are perusing the comments section of a video not on your channel and engaging with a comment such as mine tells me you are clearly insecure about this, which does make me feel a little bad honestly.
@@OfficialRedTeamReview buddy, you literally sighed and said “listen we have seen bad episodes. This wasn’t a bad episode” whereas in every single episode review you’ve done without Preston, you have raved about how good the episodes were. Yea. Preston didn’t come out and say “you are an idiot for not getting how awful these choices by the writers have been” so I guess he “agreed” with you on all your points and how fantastic the episodes really were. The fact that you are perusing the comment section of a video not on your channel and engaging with my comment, tells me you are actually very insecure about this, which does make me feel bad for you.
I completely disagree with you on the Dragon Eggs thing. It was like a three minute long scene in total, with like maybe 10 seconds focused on the eggs. Not only that though, but the scene itself barely has anything to do with the eggs, and instead, it was almost entirely about character development for Baela and Rhaena, and background for the Vale plot and little Aegon and Viserys. Another thing though, is that even if you don't know anything about the main show and Danny and her dragons, the scene still completely works. In the scene she's sending the eggs not only in hopes of hatching them, but also because the eggs are always talked about as being worth a fortune, so Rhaenyra is entrusting Rhaeba with not only her kids, but with a lot of money in case something bad happens to the Dragonstone crew. Overall its a really weird thing to be mad about and focus so much on.
preston is back from his secret mission. unfortunately, we lose substitute teacher trey😢
I was genuinely hoping for a 3 way.
He was definitely a top lad
any bets on which govt has he destabilized in the meantime?
Trey is trash
@@chemputerto quote 6ix9ine TreyWay
I can't speak for most people with autism but I personally have had an easier time looking people in the eyes and holding conversations as I get older so I don't find Helena's characterization contradictory.
Same here. You can mask the autism a lot easier as you get older.
I agree that it wouldn't be contradictory if Helena was autistic. But I view the visions as a form of neurodiversity which creates autistic type traits but not necessarily meeting the diagnostic criteria for autism. It's a plausible hypothesis though
Yep, same here, hated being touched esp by strangers (sitting on a bus), would have panic attacks over eye contract, once I got into my 20's I thought about it and worked on not letting it bother me.
It's also way easier to make eye contact with people you see and know a lot, like your mother
Yeah, I immediately went to masking. I know that the visions are not an autistic trait, but this is a fantasy show. You could say the same thing about dragon riding. Just because she has visions doesn’t mean she isn’t also coded as autistic. I genuinely enjoy and admire Preston (and Carmine), but I think that his view on this is not him at his best. I know he didn’t mean it and he is a good person with good intentions, but some of his comments came across a bit condescending to people with ASD in the livestream. I think that autistic people seeing some kinship in Helaena is a valid reading of her character. Preston should just let us autists have this one. People can be more than one thing and ASD is very complex and the community is very diverse. There’s too much in Helaena that comes though and rings true for it to be unintentional on the part of the writers and the actresses.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
29:16 Just have to refute the notion here that "In real life, siblings look alike". This is clearly not always the case. I have a large family and half of my siblings look one way, half look another (each half primarily taking after one parent, respectively). But with my closest brother for instance, you'd never be able to tell we were related we look so different. People often don't even believe it. So that point doesn't take me out of a TV show or other media.
Otto wasnt just mad at Aegon for the assassination attempt. He was mainly mad about the ratcatchers.
The main reason Otto was willing to send Harold, was because they had the element of surprise, which was completely gone by s2e2
THE RATCATCHERS!
He was mad the attempt wouldn't succeed and therefore just cause useless antagonism instead of ending a war. Or at least turning the war into the Realm against Damon, which would be easier.
Something missed by a lot of people I'm noticing is the foreshading in the scene before Ulf, we get a very deliberately framed shot of a boy with a puppet dragon and a prostitute dropping a coinpurse from a window, and the two overlap when she does so it looks like someone is falling from the back of a dragon.
Great catch!
I have to say that the scene I appreciate the most was the opening between the Blackwoods and Brackens because, finally, for the first time in ASOIAF, the Blackwoods are presented as the arrogant dicks for once and the Brackens are shown in a somewhat sympathetic light.
The main series keeps trying to pretend this is a commentary on the pointlessness of ancient blood feuds, but it’s not. The Blackwoods are a bunch of honourable badasses and the Brackens are a bunch of stuck up jerks, it’s actually a very one sided conflict morally speaking that only ever leaves you rooting for one side and one side only.
So I cannot thank the show enough for finally introducing some ambiguity into this situation, even leaving the possibility open that the Blackwoods started a fight over stones the Brackens never moved, because this REALLY needed it and it truly cements the horror of the next scene showing a mountain of corpses leaving you shocked by the needless violence and not just upset that some Brackens survived and too many Blackwoods died, like it is in m the books.
I agree and I add the fact that the Blackwoods is a magical family and it makes them more interesting
Found the br**cken
The honor and demeanor of both houses is pretty irrelevant to the pointlessness of their feud and what comes out of it. Be good, be bad, doesn't matter, they are still throwing peasants to death over nothing, which is what the main series portrays.
The change doesn't add much here, it's still the same scenario for anyone watching the show. Two random houses who no one knows fighting → cut to battlefield.
It's not a negative change, it's not positive either. It's pretty unremarkable for anyone but book fans who have feelings for these two houses and their feud.
The acting was a bit off tho.
It's a shame the show didn't use that theme on the feud between the greens and the blacks and keeps painting one side as the heroes and the other as the vilains.
“Clever use of trees to depower the dragons.” Good point Preston. Not too many other clever ways for the show writers to use all their trees. The only other uses coming to mind are standing, shading, maybe some waving in the wind. Good on them for finding a more clever way to use their trees!
Preston is always so on point. His posture on logic in writing is so good. That's why sometimes when you watch or read so many good stuff and you get delivered crumbs you feel so disappointed.
Sure but sometimes he just straight up gets things wrong or misses the point. See @jasonmoore7223's comment about Otto being mad about the ratcatchers rather than merely the Cargyll assassination, or his weird insistence that you shouldn't happen to look like the _Pieta_ pose unless it's a specific comparison to Jesus.
@@coreyander286 how is he wrong about the Pietà scene? First off, if the show is really geared to casual watchers, most people won’t get the reference of significance. Secondly, Aemond is nothing like Jesus so what’s the pose supposed to imply? What’s the point of it other than it being a cinematographically cool shot?
@@playea123 But that's exactly what they're saying. It's literally just a shot that shows that Aemond has mommy issues and tells us a bit about him. That's it. It has nothing to do with Jesus. But Preston insisted that the show is making a direct comparison between Aemond and Jesus because it vaguely looks like the Pieta. And he criticized the show for that. Which is silly imo. Preston read way too much into a simple shot that conveys mothering.
@@playea123 bc it makes no sense to think it’s a Pieta reference. Maybe if he was face up being cradled in both of her arms I would see it. But no he is just curled up in her lap. He just happens to be tall and skinny. If anything it reminded more of John Lennon & Yoko Ono. I love Preston but he’s way off on this one. It’s obviously just showing he has mommy issues. There’s no comparison to Jesus at all.
@@MarkHogan994 yeah I misunderstood what people were having an issue with. I thought people were agreeing that it was a pietà shot but disagreed with Preston on the significance of
Agreed, the obsession with showing us that Alicent and Rhaenyra want peace is over the top and adds nothing. It makes them look naive.
While I missed Preston in the pod, I truthfully enjoyed Trey’s positivity and openness to enjoy the show. I also find that Carmine back tracks some previously positive comments to go along with Preston’s tougher criticism.
Genuinely shocked neither of you brought up that Dyana is in this episode. So the writers definitely have season 1 Aegon in mind still
Yes! I pointed her out to my housemate
You're actually the first person I've seen mention her at all
Well yes.
We got that brothel scene.
Abusive dickhead is still a large part of Aegon's character.
The White Worm should have sent Damon to the brothel to kill Aemon.
Aemond started going to the brothel only after searching for Aegon last season, and coming across his first time.
Eh… that’s a good idea in theory. But how would Daemon be able to escape alive? How would he be able to convince other people to be dumb enough to attack a royal in a public place? Blood and cheese in the show were pretty dumb, but not that dumb. They had an escape plan, while ambitious, was possible enough that they thought it would work. TBH the only way it would’ve worked is if they poisoned Aemond or if they hired a faceless man. But the prior only works if they had contacts in Kings Landing, which they don’t really have. And they lack the coin for a faceless man.
Mysaria isn't the super spy people think she is.
She's convinced Ser Otto tried to kill her when the viewers (or at least those who have thought about it) know it was Larys.
On a side note, i can go with no more brothel scenes for awhile. That bj in your face was something else 😂😂
@@Hector_Moira uh no, pretty sure the older woman already knew Aemond when Cole and Aemond went there looking for Aegon
I agree about the game of thrones references. It feels kinda 4th wall breaking. It takes you out of it
Preston’s gotta have the most calming voice in this fandom, dude could talk me into driving into a tree. Also, loved the episode guys, great discussion.
Preston is 1000% about the Blood and Cheese scene
HotD is doing something different. Preston wants psycho killers, but the show is humanising everyone. They're showing the horror of real life - the mundanity of horror. Ordinary people just doing what they always do - "I was only following orders."
How is that everyone forgot that rhaenys is a mass murderer?
lol, just another one of the show's oopsies!
It's maddening that Twitter calls her the only sane person who doesn't want unnecessary bloodshed. I don't think the writers remember that S1 scene either.
Like every mantle passed on from generation to generation, from father to son, from king to king, every burden must be taken away and bequeathed unto another.
And so it was that in this episode that Cregan’s actor gave the responsibility of having a terribly ill fitting and out of place accent to Alys Rivers’ actress, just as it was given to him by Mysaria before him.
The cycle of burdens is ever unending. 😔
Her accent threw me off lol. And she only had 1 line!!
@@Elle-tb8tiShe sounded so American, it was SO out of place for a series which has had a pretty consistent aesthetic of English or English sounding accents. 😂
I've always felt that young Rhaenyra and Alicent being played as "lesbians" is very true to real life young female friendships. They can be so intense and all consuming that often they can be confused with feelings of sexual/romantic love for eachother. Often, girls will either grow apart, realise they're gay or they stay friends but the friendship "cools" with age and those sexual feelings disappear. So to me, the fact the older actors don't play them as being gay makes sense. Especially as they've fallen out with each other, those intense feelings of love can quickly become all consuming senseless hate as well.
On Helaena being autistic; I just assumed that the older actor was playing someone with autism who had learnt to "mask". Many of us with autism learn this ability as we age and realise that our autistic traits garner attention (that we don't want!) masking is the lesser of two evils. Helaena does for the most part still avoid physical contact and eye contact. She only gives eye contact when she absolutely must, same for physical.
jesus dude, its got to be exhausting watching a show through your perspective. them being lesbian or not means nothing, young relationships are always intense platonic or romantic because u literally have fuck all to worry about.
The show doesn't say that the eggs are Daenerys's, the writer did in an external interview. In terms of the story, it would make sense for Rhaenyra to send unhatched eggs for Rhaena, Aegon III, and Viserys II with them so that they could potentially have their own dragons. So in terms of the what the show does I don't think there's anything wrong with the eggs being there.
20:51 Otto specifically tried to take out rhaenyra BEFORE she knew her father was dead. Once they missed that opportunity, he considered the window closed. The way aegon did it was crude and reckless, not at all Otto's style
That's a very fair and great counterpoint but i don't think Otto/writers made that clear.
@@OfficialRedTeamReview no they didn't, and I agree that inconsistent writing has plagued this show from the beginning. But that doesn't mean logic can't be found in there somewhere.
@@OfficialRedTeamReview
Otto talks sagacious, but a lot of what does, particularly last season, comes off as stupid.
Otto is inconsistent but that's precisely the point (imo). It's been made clear by the show that Alicent uses her faith as a tool to reinforce her own desires as just. She feels wronged by Rhaenyra's flaunting of social conventions (the seed is strong...) as she was forced to abide to and was then harmed by those said social conventions.
I wonder if we may yet learn more about Otto's backstory, but it's clear that he sees virtues, principles and behaviour in general as a means to an end: to grow the status of the Hightower name. When Alicent "breaks" the rules by trying to stab Rhaenyra, Otto commends her because he needs Rhaenyra dead if he is to succeed in his goal. I doubt Otto would have commended Alicent for "breaking the rules" if she had avoided her "duty" to "comfort" Viserys.
So, when Otto reprimands Aegon (II) as "callous and feckless" he is simply plucking the most "feathered" adjectives for "naughty boy" from his vocabulary. Otto later calls Aegon and Aemon "peacocks," likening their aggression and recklessness as their feathers. This I believe to be the show-writers mirroring Criston's arc from the same episode, in which we clearly see he is projecting. Otto is also projecting here, but in a more subtle way, as he always does.
Otto does not value any particular virtue, principle or behaviour but rather values bias and preference. If we can continue to use Alicent's relationship to Otto as an example of the mirroring of Otto's own behaviour - her exclamation of "but he (Otto) would be partial to me" in S1 is another clue towards Otto's lack of a moral compass. Otto's true value lies in cautious and careful consideration, followed by going all in on the "perfectly caclulated" opportunity to stike (e.g. Visery's death).
Furthermore, causes for autism have been linked to genetics. Halaena is pretty squarely autistic-coded, so either Alicent or Viserys had to have been autistic. If Alicent is autistic (and may be considered more "high-masking") then either Otto or Otto's wife must have been autistic too. And before you dismiss the importance of this factor, please consider this. The myers-brigg personality test is rudimentary yet can provide some basic insight into human behaviour. The INFP personality type is ascribed as "mediators" and famous among them is J.R.R. tolkien, who I assume anyone reading this comment understands the links to this discussion. The INFP personality type is also commonly colloquially likened to individuals with autism - citing similarities like a strong sense of justice or truth and enhanced pattern recognition (come on guys think of Halaena). And you don't get (intentionally) "distracted" * from finishing the most commercially successful fantasty series since LOTR to write Fire and Blood if you don't have a bit of the tism.
* GRRM has said in an interview (pre-success of GOT) that if he wanted to create the next LOTR, he would use the "downtime" in-between the release of novels to generate hype and success. The last ASOIAF book was published the year GOT aired. GOT wasn't analysed as marketable, scripted, casted, filmed edited and released in less than a year. ADOD was published the year of GOT being aired as that was the last time Martin actually had a self-imposed deadline - to finish the next book before the show comes out, so that he can absolutely rake in the hype for his next book for the foreseeable future.
Back to Otto. He's "inconsistent" yes, but because he's got a bit of the tism.
P.s. I have the card
Gosh, I just so enjoy reading good comments.
The whoopsies also accompany actual intent. Alicient had the whoopsie but Otto and the council were planning to overthrow Rhaenyra the whole time. Daemon wanted Aemond dead but the whoopsie was that Jahaerys was killed instead (not so much of a whoopsie). And we never heard what he told blood and cheese so maybe he did tell them to kill Jahaerys as a last resort band he didn't want to look like the total bad guy to Rhaenyra. Vhagar killing Luke is a little different because Aemond is flying this massive dragon that has a mind of its own. He has that hate towards Luke for taking his eye but he never wanted him dead either.
Autists quite often learn how to mask their autism over time.
If child Haleana shows clear signs of autism and adult Haleana doesn't that would be a realistic depiction of an autistic person.
Trying to frame everything as "they're benevolent and want to avoid war" is so silly. The years of tension... Summoning Rhynera moments after child birth to go "another bastard I see", stealing her throne, blinding aemond, alicent trying to blind Luke, killing Luke, killing jaherys... And they're still looking for a peaceful solution? What solution, seriously. I'd like them more if after Luke it was "right, how do we kill them all"
I don't need to like daemon to find him interesting, why do I need to like the rest of them...
The whole Rhaenyra/Alicent scene struck me as the showrunners and writers desperately wanting to have a "one last drink before the war" scene. The last moment of peace before everything changes forever. But instead of that, we get this whacky D&D Disguise Self scene where the woman whose silver hair is hanging out of the corners of the habit manages to get close to the Queen and pull a knife on her literally days after a high-profile political assassination. I just kinda laughed at it. Nothing was achieved and they just kinda walk away.
i think aegon changed a lot because at first he didnt want to be king, just live carelessly and without consequences. but then accepted it and kinda grew into his role. just seems abrupt because we see him only a couple of times
Same
00:20:11 Tbf, Otto wanted to send swords before they found out about Viseysses death which made way more sense then, as it would have been way easier. He also said it out loud in public so that in true bloodraven Hand of the King fashion, his King would have his own hands clean after the deed is done. Ending the war & securing the future in one fell swoop?
The real reason Otto lost it is because he dirtied his hands in the most idiotic way. Killing hundreds of men to kill one which could have been found in due time had Aegon been patient. decades of planning where thrown out the window by one act of someone who should be able to think for himself by now, in his eyes...
I feel like Otto calling it a "prank" showed why he was mad about it. Sending one dude to go kill the most protected person on an isolated island is not only very unlikely, but is also very likely to make things worse. Even if it did work thiugh, yes, it would hurt the Blacks, but they would still be fighting for Jace or Daemon anyway most likely, so even the absolute best case scenario wouldn't do much. In fact, considering how much Otto hates Daemon, killing Rhaenyra may even be worse for the Greens because then you'd have an unchecked Daemon doing whatever the hell. Again, this is all considering the fact that the plan was extremely likely to not work out. I mean all the greens need to do from Ottos perspective is protext King's landing and slowly consolidate power through political moves and ravens. With Vhagar, Sunfyre, Dreamfyre, etc, they're extremely hard to take down, at least not for some time. So agitating the greens, and potentially handing the reigns of power to Daemon would be the opposite of buying time and defending their position. It makes sense to me.
My only thoughts about the Blood and Cheese making mistakes and being spooked themselves etc. I think they're just trying to humanise them. To show that there's no such thing as monsters, half the time they're just people. In this case one could argue, starving people who are desperate for money or just straight up greedy. They fuck up because they're just normal people who ended up in a desperate situation. I guess?? The Oops! That was an accident! Moments I think again, are to show that a lot of wars and such can be down to petty or just straight up stupid accidents?
44:20 - The only reason for showing Aemond in a Pieta scene is hinting that he's going to die very soon. The Pieta is and was used in war memorials to represent women mourning soldiers (none of said soldiers of course was anything like Jesus). That's why I think it is a foreshadowing.
Aemond definitely has *sacrificial victim* vibes.
Of course practically everyone is gonna die in this war so I'm not sure why Aemond is being particularly singled out.
Maybe it's because he's such a loyal soldier.
Preston where are your watch videos for episode 2 and 3??
Love you both. It’s been a great show. Represent the unofficial podcast. Can’t wait for next week. 😘
Emma D'Arcy is fiiiiiineeeee 🎉
Everyone is serving in this season
She looks terrible in real life, like a real woman on tv tho 😢
🤝
Sure, but to quote my T-Ball Coach during my team’s rewards banquet sleep over, “I love Allcock all the time”
@@stelmaria-mx they should fire Coles barber though
There were 4 eggs so it was also setup for Dunk n Egg as well. The eggs will come up a few more times they re their own story.
As an autist myself I got that vibe from Helena
Yea I’m annoyed with them trying to make show cannon Syrax the mother of Dany’s dragons lol. Why make Dreamfyre look exactly like Drogon then. This new twist isn’t interesting at all. Just forcing more of a Rhaenyra & Dany connection. Changes should add to the story, not be fan service
I agree with your point but I find it so minor I barely care
@@SantiagoGarza-bg9wpI mean okay, that’s why I was commenting MY opinion lmao. It’s indicative of superfluous writing choices which they’ve already displayed.
@@ml.9417 yeah, it makes sense
Just once i want carmine to ask "preston you mind if we wrap it up here" and preston to say yes i do mind and go on a 40 minute rant about something completely random
LMAO
Please make a Sweetrobin reaction to episode 2, I can't handle a mere 7 episode season of Brandon and Chad
And here I was, worried this podcast was no more….
Tbh, I half thought Carmine might have served Preston with divorce papers at some point since last season, culminating with a vicious custody battle that ended with Preston only allowed to see Trey the Explainer every other weekend.
I’m glad to be wrong.
And we're back bros
Carmine in the early reviews for the season you literally said "You can't blame the show for alluding to Game of Thrones, it's a prequel". Maybe this is what they were referring to and you were quick to judgement?
I feel like I had more to say beyond that one sentence. Can you point me in the direction in the original video?
@@OfficialRedTeamReview It's the one where you talk about early reviews for Season 2. Part of it mentions that there are many tie-ins that needlessly reminds the audience of GOT and you and Preston defended the show against it, but I think stuff like this (and presumably more) is what it was referring to
@@secondeye1574 Just re-watched the video you're talking about and the only thing that comes remotely close to what you said is at around 11 minutes 30 seconds in that video where the reviewer complained about alluding to the white walkers. I defended *that* part because its a prequel and that the characters don't know when the walker threat will be coming. The reviewer was talking as if the prophecy has a specific start date and it doesn't and he complained that the prophecy is moot because none of whats happening now matters in the future....but our characters don't know that.
That's massively different than shoving member berries in our face which is what the eggs were. Also keep in mind that Preston and I didn't know what they were referencing, other than the walker stuff, because they kept it spoiler free and they got to watch the first few episodes. we didnt
@@OfficialRedTeamReview I agree that they are not technically contradictory positions: The white walker stuff can be acceptable while the egg stuff can be bad. I'm just saying you may have jumped the gun a bit by assuming the review was being "incredibly dumb".
I also think it's a glaring error to say "it's a prequel" as a defense, because you could make the same argument for showing Daenerys' dragon eggs. Obviously both are done for prequel reasons, but neither is necessary for a prequel and these were choices the writer/s made because they wanted to. They weren't forced into doing this.
I'd also disagree that the eggs were forced in because it's a visual that a lot of people probably missed, compared to the Aegon prophecy stuff which was dialogue that most viewers would have picked up on.
Damn…Preston has a good point about the threes company and everything being an oopsy of miscommunication. If the story isn’t about the cost of revenge, I don’t know what its about.
I think the legality of the Blood and Cheese adaptation that Ryan Condal was alluding to was the choice to have the twins be asleep. I think the legality would’ve become an issue if they put the child actors through the distress that a more accurate B&C portrayal would necessitate.
Convenient.
No mention of Daemon getting spooked by the BATS at Harrenhall?
🦇 🦇 🦇 🦇
Definitely a Lothston reference. Would have thought Preston would be all over that considering that's where Sweet Robin and Brann get half their mutant psychic powers from.
I noticed that too, and pointed out that their may be bat wargs to my friend who's never heard of Preston.
Telepathic, shamanic, genetic, psychedelic, extraterrestrial airforce
🍁🦇 🦇 🦇 🦇 🦇 🍁
Disagree on all the whoopsies. Aemond would have been happy for Luke to cut out his eye, the Greens were gonna do their coup with or without Alicent, Daemon didn't whoopsie Jaeherys, he's itching for war. All these people made choices and inch by inch things have built up to a point they can't be stopped.
Preston was spot on in this!
You should rename this TheOfficialComplainOfThronesPodcast 🥴
You know what dumb shit is going to be added to oopsie whoopsie? Rhaenys goes to protect Rooks Rest. Aemond sees Rhaenys and stops his dragon from attacking her. But Sunfyre slams into them from above and in the chaos Vhagar gets pissed and basically roasts all who she can. Oopsie ! Aemond is a good guy, she didn't want to kill Rhaenys Aegon is the bad guy and Vhagar is just old and done with everyone's shit. Aemond is not a kindlayer guys, he remembered how Rhaenys spared his life. Men cannot control dragons. Its all a misunderstanding guys!
BOO HOOO
Is that your speculation or a leaked spoiler?
In the prequels the clone wars isn’t just member berry throw away stuff it is the entire plot
I think in the writers’ minds the misunderstandings are supposed to make it even more Shakespearean and tragic. Although B&C doesn’t count bc it’s clear they want us to understand that Damon was fine with them going for any son.
also, during season 1 promo Olivia Cooke did talk about her own head cannon of Alicent and Rhaenyra having a romantic connection in their past. She’s called Alicent closeted and everything
It doesn't help that Alicent has never had a satisfactory relationship with a man.
I feel for her.
Despite her high position her life has been a succession of disappointments.
While the setup for the end of episode 3 might have been strange, I really feel like the dialogue saved it.
Remember, this is the same universe where a Targaryen snuck into King’s landing in a sack of corn and stole a dragon.
its the "oops" moment that ruins it. characters aren't allowed to be malicious its just a big misunderstanding
@@kizura8294I think the actors sold it well enough, even though I don't like the misunderstandings
@@Jamesxx15 I didn't say if they were right or not, I was just praising the performances through that clunky dialogue. They could literally have had this conversation in a few episodes time without all the bullshit
@@stelmaria-mxI disagree, this was the only time they could have a conversation before open war.
@@kizura8294I agree that all the oops moments are stupid, but this conversation actually addressed one of them and made it clear to Rhaenyra that peace is not an option.
09:00 Thank God Preston's back. Finally someone who is willing to admid that the B&C scene ruined the episode.
21:55 I mean, presumably a bunch of Aegon's Bros in the Kingsguard will die through the War.
Also sure, Aegon is likeable/sympathethic. That does not necessarily make him a good person, or even an ok/mediocre person. He could still be kind of a jerk and sympathethic.
29:12 That's a misconception. They didn't eat enough sugar for their teeth to get bad so their teeth were surprisingly healthy.
Also regarding Star Wars, Clone Wars were far from unimportant even in the originals. They are the thing that connects Leia to Obi-wan, and similarly connect Anakin and Obi-wan to each other in addition to the Anakin being Obi-wan's student (been a while since I watched a New Hope but I am not sure it was ever stated that Anakin was Obi-wan's student in that. Vader is mentioned as his student but as far as that movie is concerned Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker are different people. Obi-wan mentions him as a pilot and "a good friend"). So they are pretty important in that they are what connects Obi-wan (and Jedi in general when one thinks about it) to Luke and Leia.
Moreover, you could disagree with the decision of having the first Prequel movie be about Anakin as a child rather than him already being closer to Luke's age at a New Hope and a Jedi. But once that was decided on I would say that showing the Clone Wars in the other movies to some degree would be something of a necessity as it is the basically the most important event we hear about in the Original Trilogy that would be in the time of the Prequels. If episodes two and three were entirely disconnected from the Clone Wars (which would probably mean no Clone Wars multimedia project as we knew it, likely no Clone Wars 3D animated series as well) then fans would most likely complain about not being shown anything about the Clone Wars.
45:00 He is not held like Jesus, he is held like a baby. Ah, good you get there later. I am not sure if you could call that simple. I mean, surface level, perhaps but it is not as if Jesus imagery (if intended) would have been subtle. Aemond showing his vulnerability here and not anywhere else and him longing for motherly/family love are symbolic enough. It is not like this is some basic two dimensional characteristics.
Helaena covering her ears when Vaemond was killed was the clearest autistic trait they could have done imo. It's the closest thing they could have done to putting up a sign for the audience.
True, but I also like the interpretation that it is a side effect of her very strong "Dreamer"ness, and thus not _explicitly_ autism, just comparable in many ways...
@@LarthV
Helaena is distaff Paul Atreides.
Carmine will hate me for this but I did find episode 2 kinda boring. In ep1 Criston and Aemond were talking about battle strategy and what they will do but none of that comes into fruition in ep2. I expect there to be a sense of urgency and for the crown to add the levies of the crownlands but instead we see Alicent in a bath saying nothing and Aemond in a brothel and people teleporting on boats. The time inconsistency has got to be my biggest criticism of Season 2 and it was encapsulated in ep2. I really liked ep3 because Daemon finally takes action as does Cole and we see troops finally leaving KL and Rhaenyra’s council start actually urging to do something. The Dance began in S1E9 and it takes us till S2E3 to finally see shit being done.
i do not hate you but your username triggers me as i live in the midwest
Rightly or wrongly, I see why they had Blood and Cheese as the victims in a horror movie, because they _were_ doomed to get caught by the dragons afterwards and suffer their wrath, along with so many other smallfolk. One of the horror movie moments was the one looking at a tapestry of dragons burning stuff, I think.
Good point.
The Targarayens aren't really good guys.
We just seen things mostly from their pov.
I'm glad this show is giving us more smallfolk moments than GoT did.
+1
On your point about the showrunner making Alicent and Rhaenyra more likeable than in the book, I feel like they have to do that now, because after Rook's Rest they will both start moving down the road to revenge that you were talking about. The showrunners want us to empathise with the characters now, so we remain attached to them when they start carrying out more extreme acts
It weirdly felt like blood and cheese had a small pov chapter
I don't have a problem with Raenyes saying 'Otto wouldn't do that' she has miss judged Otto, that's a possibility. And the greens always had a level of hypocrisy and narcissism. It still fits.
Did Preston really just say the Cargyle plan was good? 😬
Preston is so right about his blood and cheese point
Surprisingly, tooth quality in history "long ago" was actually pretty well - though admittedly in particular for people who had no access to sugary luxury foods...
I think the point about blood & cheese is a great point about the show Generally, there is a certain Lack of mystery in hotd as compared to got. B&C could have been a season or several season mystery on who was behind the attack and what specifically happened but it was too obvious
Just wondering, when Condal says they couldn't do it legally, are we sure he's not talking about child actors (especially that young) with very violent dialogue? I thought that's why we didn't have a scene of the children waking up and off-screened the death. I can't imagine traumatizing children with parents on set for a scene of their actor mother Sophie's choicing.
"Held like Jesus"
Love ya big P ❤
I was looking for HOTD so I missed this
No Black Aly, would it have been the most opportune time to introduce her? Agreed that ending on Daemon would have been better. Great discussion as always you two!
Helaena's attitude in episode 3 is explained by her eventual suicide. Suicidal people can go through a period where they appear normal, content even, making up with their family (forgiving ber mother) and making peace with it, almost, before they go through the act of suicide.
Alicent, who doesn't have a close bond with her children (to put it mildly) looked very disturbed about what Helaena said.
Is Carmine aware of Fraternal twins? Surely he is. Totally possible with Baela and Rhaena.
Edit: They are NOT twins in the show! Baela is 2 years older than Rhaena.
yeah but i don't really think they made it clear those girls *are twins in the show*.
@@OfficialRedTeamReviewcarmine I ain’t gone lie, i literally don’t ever remember them saying they were twins.
It doesn’t explain why one of them looks ten years older than the other, but these shows have never been good at matching ages.
@@bshaddoHotD specifically is HORRIBLE with ages. Alicent looks the same age as all 3 of her children. Criston Cole and Daemon haven’t aged a day in 20 years
@@OfficialRedTeamReview Well shit, according to the wiki (and HBO's Official Guide), Baela is 2 years older than Rhaena. So, uh. Yeah! They really aren't twins afterall.
I hardly ever agree with Preston,but he was spit’n straight facts in this episode. These writers wild
That ending of the podcast was abrupt. Did Carmine have to go to the bathroom? 🤔
He had to make it in time for the buss back to his parents basement where he lives 🤣
IM JOKING!!!
Hell yeah we’re back 👍
I haven't seen anyone say any episode is boring.
A real coup getting Simon Russell Beale for the show.
He's the new Diana Rigg.
I agree that Otto is inconsistent, but I'm still really missing him.
loved trey but i missed preston. you guys have good chemistry
PJ IS BACK FOMOS
What's a FOMO?
The entire series is getting ruined by stupid plot decisions every episode
I liked episode 3 better and episode 2 and I don’t care who hears it.
Damon’s cold takeover of Harrenhal was perfect. The end revelation for Alicent that she was dead wrong and how she reacted. Perfect moment!
I have watched Game of Thrones and I have read the books and Dunk and Egg and the stupid history book where this show comes from and I thought this was the most like Thrones I’ve seen so far.
So many commentators here just copy each other. You are all wrong, episode 3 is way better than the last one. I love political talk but key moments are just more bloody interesting ffs.
Just starting watching this podcast again, so fun! Really hate that they keep trying to portray the Dance as just a series of mistakes. S1 makes it clear and obvious that the real reason they don't want Rhaenyra to take the throne is because she's a woman. It's not about what name Viserys uttered before he died. After Episode 2, Rhaenyra should know it's time to go to war. Why the watering down of her and Alicent? It's disappointing.
I agree that there are mistakes being made, but I don't think the "oopsies" are among them. I think the spectacle at the end of season 1 episodes 5 & 9 were really frustrating because they brought down otherwise excellent episodes. I think the biggest mistake was making Viserys' illness be the cause of his death, because it makes him look really stupid for not shoring up Rhaenyra's ascension. He knew that there would be resistance to a woman monarch which is evidenced by the vows he had the lords swear at the end of episode 1. So why not make her hand, if you know you are dying??? This is the only aspect of the book Viserys that I think is superior to the show, since his death in the book was sudden and unexpected, it's reasonable to assume that he died with unrealized plans for helping Rhaenyra.
I think "oopsie" is kind of reductive for the Vhagar incident because it shows us that the dragons cannot be controlled, and that fact is lost to history. I find that more interesting than Aemond being a blood thirsty maniac. It also has greater implications for the war to come. The prophecy is one of the best revelations to this story, in my opinion, because it humanizes the conquest and the people participating in it. It also is effectively showing a contrast between the power of dragons against the power of prophecy. It being written on the dagger also gives a symbol of that prophecy as a weapon. So the prophecy isn't an "oopsie;" it's another weapon of the war. It could be misused, abused, misunderstood, but definitely dangerous. You could infer that the prophecy was a weapon that was in the hands (Viserys) of someone that could no longer wield it responsibly.
On the "motherliness" itd be interesting to look for other parts of the 7. Is there a Stranger?
Im glad your back preston but i miss trey. I cant have it all apperently .
Trey hops on with us all the time. you can definitely have it all
Who is this new guy? Trey's cousin?? Not bad for an intern podcast tho
About Preston's Rant about motherhood...In a world of men and patriarchy, women character tend to cinque to the one role known and taught to them. However strong power deterministic smart its only natural that the mother tenderness as a force of balancing contradict the role of men's destructive nature
I find they are making Aegon II too easily loathable. Whereas Rhaenyra is depicted to be more 'evil', to put it simply, than in the books. More and more I think this is a terrible adaptation and a very good show.
Congrats to pronouncing Prestons last name the _proper_ way 😁
Yeah, she got punk’d. 😂😂😂
23:56
43:20 actually i think it still is a tale about what happens when u let bitterness and revenge consume u...a more realistic take on it by showing all the "whoopsies"..when your bitterness and need for revenge has "consumed" u its common for hasty and rushed lashing out to lead to whoopsies...no..?
I’ve worked in film and television and it’s complete nonsense that they couldn’t do blood and cheese legally. There are very convincing ways to film things happening to and in front of children without the child being traumatised or even understanding what is occurring in the scene.
The original The Exorcist has scenes of a young girl stabbing her genitals with a crucifix while blood splatters on her mothers face… that a whole film was made without traumatising 12 year old Linda Blair, despite the news media rumours at the time that the film drove her crazy.
If you have just a little bit of creativity, you could figure out how to do a truly horrifying blood and cheese without breaking a single law or ethical guideline.
we are back
Preston, I know you rarely read comments, but *please* drop the "Helena isn't autistic" thing. While I absolutely agree with it from a skeptical atheist perspective (we don't have any evidence of intent from the writers, aside from what's on screen, it COULD be something else), I'm also mildly autistic and it's really important to a lot of autistic people who see themselves in her.
It's just tasteless. You won't die on the hill, but please move to a different one, please.
Also, it would really, really, really disappoint Glidus if she was confirmed to not be autistic.
Can we at least agree she's neurodivergent?
@@Jamesxx15 Source?
Ah, yes, passion about a subject is clearly bad, and obviously I'm very upset while making a polite plea to one of my favorite creators to stop demanding evidence for one thing while simultaneously accepting other things as fact with far less if not no evidence.
My dude, I'm calm as can be. Just because *you* would only say something like that if you were crying your eyes out does not make that so for everyone else.
@@chemputerthe fact that you typed all that because someone told you to chill, kinda proves their point.
She sees visions. Do you have visions?
@@randeli7785 Does it, though? I'm just a very verbose person dude, and I type fast. If I spend an hour on a comment I can get it to be short (sometimes, anyway) but in like 2-3 minutes max I can write 10 paragraphs. Doesn't matter how chill I am.
You are bang on about their being no continuity. I was pissed about Aegon being criticized about Otto's original plan! And how they ruined Alicent and Rhaenyra finally meeting. In season 1 episode 8, Alicent asks Rhaenyra to stay and Rhaenyra says that she will "be back on dragon back". For me that foreshadowed them finally meeting when Rhaenyra takes over Kings Landing on Syrax. Now that scene has lost its significance. Also, septa costume or not, NOBODY recognizes the woman who wad heir to the throne for 20 years? No goldcloak? No guard?
When it comes to the dragon egg scene I thought they wanted to emphasize how much faith Rhaenyra had in Rhaena and how much she was honoring her. Alicent in season 1 episode 6 says that everyone knows that Aegon is the rightful heir and will be king. That has clearly been Ottos's long term plan. So why is she so shocked when her council wants to usurp the throne?
so you're mad that... a "forshadowing" you made up in your head didn't happen? That's a new level of making up shit to be mad about
Rhanyra did not reside in Kingslanding for years by this point, and everything but her face and a strand of white is hidden, it's really not that hard to imagine that no-one recognises her unless you're trying to find something to be angry about
Otto's plan in episode 9 was different because the crucial detail everyone is missing, there was no fucking war yet, infact the greens and the blacks seemed to be on quite great terms, if some kingsguard showed up there was no reason to be suspicious until too late
@@vinogr00nko93Obviously they're upset that what could have been decent foreshadowing was invalidated by such a poor scene - if there had been logic and purpose to the scene, it could have been a decent subversion of expectations based on that S01 scene. But you don't sound like you're arguing in good faith anyway, so these words are probably a waste of my time.
@@RPanda3S "I'm not argung in good faith"??? I'm defending some of the scenes I don't even fully like because the criticism is forced and not grounded in logic
I don't like the very Star Wars impulse in media to explain everything and tie it back together, and maybe the camera lingered a little too lovingly on those dragon eggs. But, they came from somewhere. Rhaena's gotta go back to the Vale with some dragon eggs. Why not give media youtubers somthing to put in their red circles?
Thank god Preston is back. I feel like everyone is creating a giant circle jerk about this show and Preston is the voice of reason.
glidus and alt shift x clearly have access to the episodes before they release so they're more friendly towards it as to not upset the people at hbo
@@kizura8294it’s crazy how long it takes them to put out their videos if they have screeners
Are you guys gonna be covering Acolyte and or the Boys s4?
Yes, we're behind because of Preston's mini vacay, he also has his other obligations with the fanfic
Jacob Prestons
All of the sudden Carmine understands that these episodes have been much less stellar than he has been saying throughout the whole time Preston hasn’t been here? Hilarious
You know what's funny about your comment? Is that we actually discussed those episodes within the first 5 minutes of this video to which Preston agreed with me on every point. It's almost as though you didn't watch the video and assumed that's what happened. We both agreed Episode 1 was fine, ending could've been better and that Episode 2 was amazing. I can timestamp those for you since you're too lazy or dumb to do it yourself? It's no problem at all really
@playea123 I watch both of their reviews and the stream, not once did carmine change his views based on who he's on with unless you're making that up?
edit: yeah i just got past the 5 minute mark, they both agree the episodes are good just issues here and there have issues. thats exactly what carmine has said these past few weeks. there wasn't anything different?
@@OfficialRedTeamReview buddy, you literally sighed and went “listen it wasn’t a bad episode. We have seen bad episodes before” whereas in every other review you’ve done about these episodes without Preston, you have raved about how good these episodes have been. Yeah. Preston didn’t come out and say “you are an idiot for not noticing these obvious retarded decisions the writers have made” so I guess he “agreed” with you on every point. The fact that you are perusing the comments section of a video not on your channel and engaging with a comment such as mine tells me you are clearly insecure about this, which does make me feel a little bad honestly.
@@OfficialRedTeamReview buddy, you literally sighed and said “listen we have seen bad episodes. This wasn’t a bad episode” whereas in every single episode review you’ve done without Preston, you have raved about how good the episodes were. Yea. Preston didn’t come out and say “you are an idiot for not getting how awful these choices by the writers have been” so I guess he “agreed” with you on all your points and how fantastic the episodes really were. The fact that you are perusing the comment section of a video not on your channel and engaging with my comment, tells me you are actually very insecure about this, which does make me feel bad for you.
@@playea123 he's responded to like 15 other comments that I see on a quick scroll
Is that Cregan Steuaaak on the screen?
I completely disagree with you on the Dragon Eggs thing. It was like a three minute long scene in total, with like maybe 10 seconds focused on the eggs. Not only that though, but the scene itself barely has anything to do with the eggs, and instead, it was almost entirely about character development for Baela and Rhaena, and background for the Vale plot and little Aegon and Viserys. Another thing though, is that even if you don't know anything about the main show and Danny and her dragons, the scene still completely works. In the scene she's sending the eggs not only in hopes of hatching them, but also because the eggs are always talked about as being worth a fortune, so Rhaenyra is entrusting Rhaeba with not only her kids, but with a lot of money in case something bad happens to the Dragonstone crew. Overall its a really weird thing to be mad about and focus so much on.