A nice summary. Shotokan's Hangetsu is another derivative of this form, that many incorrectly associate it w Sanchin. I think the internal aspect is more interesting, that's more transparent in the original White Crane version(s).
Good stuff, as always. My teacher, a gentleman from Japan who is in his 70s, says about the number-naming found in our kata: "The Chinese like to name things after numbers. Don't think about it too much." Ymmv.
Jesse Enkamp during his trip to China for his channel filmed a Chinese kung fu master of a style called _"Incense shop boxing"_ demonstrate and teach Seishan to him. The first part of it looks pretty much looks like what we're accustomed to. The rest, however, has a lot of different and very intricate moves according to him.
4th "Conspiracy Theory" (and I kind of go with #2 AND #4) is that 13 refers to the original 13 Chinese family settlement in Okinawa in the 1600's, about the time Seisan is said to have been codified/created.
Good video; my vote is for your 'conspiracy #2". The reason is: A) "13" is the most common interpretation of the kata's name (though I'm admittedly no linguistics expert), and, B) Fukien fist sets, which are the major influencers of later Okinawan Karate, tend to be short and simple; my experience with Pak Mei and styles of Southern Mantis would strongly imply that repetition of moves in a form is usually the result of a particular instructor's emphasis on what he deems most important.
Yeah, OK... if we limit the view to Okinawa there is some truth in what you say, but sll it describes is that a lot of guys had their personal versions of it. But it far frim gets us back to the original Chinese kata they started out from. It is still trained in some Chinese martial arts and seems a lot more komplex - even if some guys have added something to it since it was taught to the Okinawans.
Shi Zhi. Literally “+ character “. I also know that it uses only 13 breaths to complete the form. It’s the most mysterious form other than Pasai. Let’s talk about that!!!
Really liked the comparative analysis. What is the version you refer as "tomari"? Talking about Toon version, after the last turn it does have three techiques performed to the front, but they are different techniques, two strikes and finish with a block.
Your theories are very creative Sensei! I like the last one, being the kanji representation of the kata. Thanks for sharing! This is one of my most favorite kata, for many reasons. I think it’s somehow related to the happoren or 28 steps kata. What do you think?
wow, I never thought it that way. but incording information from okinawan shorin-ryu karate master.. yes indeed, tomari and shuri have strong connection in kata.. that's the reason they are simmilar.. and the other thing is, seisan no shorin-ryu(shuri and tomari version) is from aragaki style.. It's interesting teori, because my master seems know a lot about kata in detail, so I'll ask more detail about aragaki's kata..
Karate108 yes, aragaki tsuji pechin seisho.. I dont know if there is another aragaki, I never really2 digging information from outside for seisan, and I just got information from my shinshii..
Kirin Cluster The Shorin Seisan was not from Aragaki. Aragaki taught what was later called Naha-te. The Shorin Seisan came through Matsumura. Though, of course, they are all closely related.
Karate108 my master said that matsumura never created seisan, and niseishi.. and aragaki give three kata and give it to shorin-ryu school.. I thought it like what you said, aragaki became naha-te.. but my shinshii, and also okinawan practitioner said naha-te just had influence from aragaki, but he dedicated more for shuri-te.. also I told my shinshii about aragaki pechin from internet, he said all information about karate from internet wrong.. after he said that, he showed me a note book he wrotte by himself about the truth about karate in japanese.. so I thought it make sense, he is from okinawa, and another okinawan practitioner agreed what he said.. so I believed what they said, and I stop digging information about karate from internet, and I ask many things from him about karate..
Kirin Cluster True, Aragaki only had influence, and that's because he left no style of his own. Most of his material is in Shito-ryu, but there is essentially none in Shorin-ryu. It has nothing to do with internet; it is about who actually passed down which kata. We can't prove it was Matsumura, but we can show that the Shorin Seisan was around before Aragaki. I'm curious what evidence your teacher has that the Shorin Seisan was from Aragaki? None of the Okinawan teachers I've ever trained with or interviewed have ever said anything about that to me.
A nice summary. Shotokan's Hangetsu is another derivative of this form, that many incorrectly associate it w Sanchin. I think the internal aspect is more interesting, that's more transparent in the original White Crane version(s).
Good stuff, as always. My teacher, a gentleman from Japan who is in his 70s, says about the number-naming found in our kata: "The Chinese like to name things after numbers. Don't think about it too much." Ymmv.
Communists
🧛♂️the count
Jesse Enkamp during his trip to China for his channel filmed a Chinese kung fu master of a style called _"Incense shop boxing"_ demonstrate and teach Seishan to him. The first part of it looks pretty much looks like what we're accustomed to. The rest, however, has a lot of different and very intricate moves according to him.
4th "Conspiracy Theory" (and I kind of go with #2 AND #4) is that 13 refers to the original 13 Chinese family settlement in Okinawa in the 1600's, about the time Seisan is said to have been codified/created.
Good video; my vote is for your 'conspiracy #2". The reason is: A) "13" is the most common interpretation of the kata's name (though I'm admittedly no linguistics expert), and, B) Fukien fist sets, which are the major influencers of later Okinawan Karate, tend to be short and simple; my experience with Pak Mei and styles of Southern Mantis would strongly imply that repetition of moves in a form is usually the result of a particular instructor's emphasis on what he deems most important.
Yeah, OK... if we limit the view to Okinawa there is some truth in what you say, but sll it describes is that a lot of guys had their personal versions of it. But it far frim gets us back to the original Chinese kata they started out from. It is still trained in some Chinese martial arts and seems a lot more komplex - even if some guys have added something to it since it was taught to the Okinawans.
Unfortunately, so much written and living knowledge was lost at the end of WW2 during the Battle of Okinawa.
I like the 10 things 3-times instead of 13. Three times helps to increase Ki...
Shi Zhi. Literally “+ character “. I also know that it uses only 13 breaths to complete the form. It’s the most mysterious form other than Pasai. Let’s talk about that!!!
Really liked the comparative analysis. What is the version you refer as "tomari"?
Talking about Toon version, after the last turn it does have three techiques performed to the front, but they are different techniques, two strikes and finish with a block.
Ivan GK If you search "tomari seisan" you can see the different schools that practice it. More on that next week ;)
Your theories are very creative Sensei! I like the last one, being the kanji representation of the kata. Thanks for sharing! This is one of my most favorite kata, for many reasons. I think it’s somehow related to the happoren or 28 steps kata. What do you think?
Well presented...and most interesting....
Hi
What’s your thoughts on Aragaki Seisan ?
I love the KU Aragaki Seisan. I feel it does well to capture the essence of some universal Seisan framework.
wow, I never thought it that way.
but incording information from okinawan shorin-ryu karate master.. yes indeed, tomari and shuri have strong connection in kata.. that's the reason they are simmilar.. and the other thing is, seisan no shorin-ryu(shuri and tomari version) is from aragaki style..
It's interesting teori, because my master seems know a lot about kata in detail, so I'll ask more detail about aragaki's kata..
Kirin Cluster Which Aragaki are you referring to? Seisho?
Karate108 yes, aragaki tsuji pechin seisho.. I dont know if there is another aragaki, I never really2 digging information from outside for seisan, and I just got information from my shinshii..
Kirin Cluster The Shorin Seisan was not from Aragaki. Aragaki taught what was later called Naha-te. The Shorin Seisan came through Matsumura. Though, of course, they are all closely related.
Karate108 my master said that matsumura never created seisan, and niseishi.. and aragaki give three kata and give it to shorin-ryu school.. I thought it like what you said, aragaki became naha-te.. but my shinshii, and also okinawan practitioner said naha-te just had influence from aragaki, but he dedicated more for shuri-te.. also I told my shinshii about aragaki pechin from internet, he said all information about karate from internet wrong.. after he said that, he showed me a note book he wrotte by himself about the truth about karate in japanese..
so I thought it make sense, he is from okinawa, and another okinawan practitioner agreed what he said.. so I believed what they said, and I stop digging information about karate from internet, and I ask many things from him about karate..
Kirin Cluster True, Aragaki only had influence, and that's because he left no style of his own. Most of his material is in Shito-ryu, but there is essentially none in Shorin-ryu. It has nothing to do with internet; it is about who actually passed down which kata.
We can't prove it was Matsumura, but we can show that the Shorin Seisan was around before Aragaki. I'm curious what evidence your teacher has that the Shorin Seisan was from Aragaki? None of the Okinawan teachers I've ever trained with or interviewed have ever said anything about that to me.