The native muskies died out do to lack of natural reproduction. The shoepacks that were stocked in the 60s are now gone due to lack of natural reproduction. This happened when there were weeds and no rustys. The answers is simple - less stocking = less muskies. More stocking = more muskies. It’s the same everywhere. Mille lacs, vermilion, St. Louis River, etc.
I think the reason some MN muskie fisherman don't want more stocking (per DNR comments) is to keep people away from their fisheries (Vermillion/ Mille Lacs).
What happened? People happened. Social media. Guides and glory hounds on the fb constantly sharing show n tell and look at me. With the musky, it's big fish that always make the waves. You simply can't expect a resource to stand or last with the amount of pressure day after day after day, year after year. Musky fishing in the last decade has exploded. Ask any hardcore that fished Lotw's back in 2010 to compare the lake to right now. Fishing pressure prior to covid definitely took it's toll there as well. There's this preconceived notion that because of a certain amount of acreage it's safe to share show n tell. I'll never understand for the life of me how it is that you would want other people hunting in or near your very stomping grounds that you supposedly enjoy and consider sacred to your heart. Enter in pride, covetousness, me and mine mentality to get what you want as an end all at whatever cost. Think I'm wrong? How many musky fisherman currently don't take photo's or share those photo's with often hundreds or actually thousands of other eyeballs seeing their catch indirectly. How heart broken they are when a fish get's away prior to them being able to fondle it and hold it high as this great idol. It was going to go back in the lake anyway right? It's a strange mentality........"when in Rome, go where the Romans go". Ice-fisherman go to Upper Red or Lotw's during winter in droves because........well, it's where everyone goes. You catch a 50 inch musky, well, have to tell everyone about it because that's what other people are doing........ "look at this great accomplishment". To each their own; but the truth to your question "what's happening" is very simple. Fishing pressure and educated pressure at that. Sadly, not much different than the buffalo there are guides and fisherman that will keep on going after them until every last big fish is gone and then cry out for more buffalo. Raise more buffalo for us please. (or big bluegills or muskies or mature bucks, etc. etc)
Good analytical breakdown guys. I really believe the big issue is the rusty crayfish infestation and how they affect cabbage beds. I know that muskies will reproduce on their own given the right habitat. I witnessed it years ago in Smart Bay. Without cabbage there really is no haven for muskies. We used to be able to go into any bay that had cabbage pretty much and have a shot at a decent musky. That’s pretty much all gone now. All you find now are shallow isolated cabbage beds that aren’t going to hold muskies. Center island is shot and used to be a go-to spot because of the deep cabbage. The days of casting until your arm pretty much falls off are pretty much over. I know you can get em trolling but just not into that. The good news is the eyes are reaching massive proportions. Just an example of how one invasive species can mess up the entire ecosystem.
Same thing happened on Cass and the same thing happened on Leech. But I think the Muskie‘s are still all there they’re just not as easy to catch because with nice cabbage beds and Muskie‘s hunker into those cabbage beds. It’s like white on rice. Now those fish are out in open water and only occasionally go up to structure.
I love, Vermilion. Always will. Interestingly enough, about 10 years ago a former guide and prominent resort owner was lamenting the decline of the resources in the lake. He was leaving me with the impression that somehow the vacationers were the problem because of our relentless pursuit of walleye, smallmouth and muskies while enjoying our 1-week annual vacations. Ironically he was a former resort owner’s association president and did more promoting of the benefits of the lake (I.e. the trophy fishing and scenic beauty) during his tenure than probably any board president preceding him. He even made the cover of a top-tier fishing magazine holding up a stringer of giant smallies he’d caught with a very well known TV personality. I suspect if he would’ve had social media in the day he would’ve exploited it to benefit his resort by sharing all his successes. We who have vacationed there for decades are well aware of the decline. I’ve released every musky and bass I’ve caught since the early 2000’s. Only kept a few eater pike each year. Never taken a walleye but that will probably change next year. I don’t have the margin or passion to advocate for any stocking or harvesting changes on the lake. I’ll leave that to the people who make their living there. I’m coming regardless of the density of any particular species. It’s beautiful and relaxing. If I’m trophy fishing for any species I’ll take to the internet, do my research and find out which TV personalities, guides and resort owners are doing the best job of convincing me to come to their lake. Short answer to the question… If trophy muskies are your passion they are still present in Big V. But, they are probably easier to catch elsewhere.
This is good stuff and I’m for stocking more muskies within reason, but I think we could also be talking about how to maximize survival of stocked fish and improve potential natural reproduction! Protect/restore these areas, that way in years like 2020 if for some reason fish can’t be stocked it gives the best chance at outputting fish still!
Hi Josh, can you suggest to the DNR folks to research the development of a more self-sustaining fishery where natural spawning takes place? I know that fish typically don't reproduce well in stocked lakes. My theory is that fish don't spawn because they "can't find the right spot" because they have incorrectly "imprinted" on their hatchery location. Scientists know that salmon return to the same river to spawn where they were spawned. So, they must "imprint" and geo-locate on the river during early growth and development. Similarly, stocked musky should be reared on a dock/floating barge in a preselected spawning bay on the intended target lake during their initial development stages until they "imprint". Then, they can be transported to a hatchery for "finishing" before they are returned to the lake for stocking. The big questions are: how long does it take to "imprint", and do the fish need to see the sky or not (to visualize the earth's magnetic field) in order to imprint? There is already enough research on salmon to support my theory and assist with development of a study. More importantly, why not just try it and see if it works? I understand that this approach will cost more money in the short term. However in the long term, it should cost less money.
There are far more Muskies in the lake today than I ever imagined. This I know thanks to Livescope. What I also now know is that these Muskies are extremely boat shy. A high percentage of them will slowly follow, then become aware of the boat and stop - typically 30’ out and 10’ down - never being seen by the naked eye. Follow to bite ratios of 50:1 are the norm for me. That’s fishing pressure causing avoidance behavior. Catch rates have suffered as a result. When those same fish were exposed to angling for the first time, they bit far more frequently. That’s just not the case today and probably never will be again. Lower catch rates can be a function of both angling pressure and overall population. In the case of V today, the former and not the latter seems to be the primary driver of poorer success rates. Just telling you what I’ve seen with my own eyes and has been confirmed through various studies I read about the effects of angling pressure on fish catches.
More than the DNR We need to pressure the buisness community aka Lodge owners They have the governors ear They have to/should see the value in musky angling And this day and age of different species anglers not liking each other and bad mouthing each other doesn't help It's forced resort owners (and even some bait shops) To take sides And
Is this a funding problem that is holding back stocking? If so, is there a way to generate more funding for stocking muskies? Musky fisherman bring millions and millions of dollars to MN resorts, restaurants, gas stations, bait shops, etc. Why jeopardize that if the problem is some fraction of that dollar amount for stocking muskies?
What happened?...isn't there like over ten fishing lodges on the lake,how.many like hundreds of party's fishing,like probably some mortality by improper handling and all these fishing aids,,not to mention local fishing
Combination of many factors. Stocking is probably #2 after fishing pressure. People really need to learn to stop bragging about their trips to vermilion. Or any lake for that matter. Nobody cares about the 50" fish you caught anymore. Keep it to yourself and enjoy the fish. Treat the lakes and the fish with respect and not just your playground for the week you come up.
The native muskies died out do to lack of natural reproduction. The shoepacks that were stocked in the 60s are now gone due to lack of natural reproduction. This happened when there were weeds and no rustys. The answers is simple - less stocking = less muskies. More stocking = more muskies. It’s the same everywhere. Mille lacs, vermilion, St. Louis River, etc.
Great information thank you.
I think the reason some MN muskie fisherman don't want more stocking (per DNR comments) is to keep people away from their fisheries (Vermillion/ Mille Lacs).
What happened? People happened. Social media. Guides and glory hounds on the fb constantly sharing show n tell and look at me. With the musky, it's big fish that always make the waves. You simply can't expect a resource to stand or last with the amount of pressure day after day after day, year after year. Musky fishing in the last decade has exploded. Ask any hardcore that fished Lotw's back in 2010 to compare the lake to right now. Fishing pressure prior to covid definitely took it's toll there as well. There's this preconceived notion that because of a certain amount of acreage it's safe to share show n tell. I'll never understand for the life of me how it is that you would want other people hunting in or near your very stomping grounds that you supposedly enjoy and consider sacred to your heart. Enter in pride, covetousness, me and mine mentality to get what you want as an end all at whatever cost. Think I'm wrong? How many musky fisherman currently don't take photo's or share those photo's with often hundreds or actually thousands of other eyeballs seeing their catch indirectly. How heart broken they are when a fish get's away prior to them being able to fondle it and hold it high as this great idol. It was going to go back in the lake anyway right? It's a strange mentality........"when in Rome, go where the Romans go". Ice-fisherman go to Upper Red or Lotw's during winter in droves because........well, it's where everyone goes. You catch a 50 inch musky, well, have to tell everyone about it because that's what other people are doing........ "look at this great accomplishment". To each their own; but the truth to your question "what's happening" is very simple. Fishing pressure and educated pressure at that. Sadly, not much different than the buffalo there are guides and fisherman that will keep on going after them until every last big fish is gone and then cry out for more buffalo. Raise more buffalo for us please. (or big bluegills or muskies or mature bucks, etc. etc)
Good analytical breakdown guys. I really believe the big issue is the rusty crayfish infestation and how they affect cabbage beds. I know that muskies will reproduce on their own given the right habitat. I witnessed it years ago in Smart Bay. Without cabbage there really is no haven for muskies. We used to be able to go into any bay that had cabbage pretty much and have a shot at a decent musky. That’s pretty much all gone now. All you find now are shallow isolated cabbage beds that aren’t going to hold muskies. Center island is shot and used to be a go-to spot because of the deep cabbage. The days of casting until your arm pretty much falls off are pretty much over. I know you can get em trolling but just not into that. The good news is the eyes are reaching massive proportions. Just an example of how one invasive species can mess up the entire ecosystem.
Same thing happened on Cass and the same thing happened on Leech. But I think the Muskie‘s are still all there they’re just not as easy to catch because with nice cabbage beds and Muskie‘s hunker into those cabbage beds. It’s like white on rice. Now those fish are out in open water and only occasionally go up to structure.
I love, Vermilion. Always will. Interestingly enough, about 10 years ago a former guide and prominent resort owner was lamenting the decline of the resources in the lake. He was leaving me with the impression that somehow the vacationers were the problem because of our relentless pursuit of walleye, smallmouth and muskies while enjoying our 1-week annual vacations. Ironically he was a former resort owner’s association president and did more promoting of the benefits of the lake (I.e. the trophy fishing and scenic beauty) during his tenure than probably any board president preceding him. He even made the cover of a top-tier fishing magazine holding up a stringer of giant smallies he’d caught with a very well known TV personality. I suspect if he would’ve had social media in the day he would’ve exploited it to benefit his resort by sharing all his successes. We who have vacationed there for decades are well aware of the decline. I’ve released every musky and bass I’ve caught since the early 2000’s. Only kept a few eater pike each year. Never taken a walleye but that will probably change next year. I don’t have the margin or passion to advocate for any stocking or harvesting changes on the lake. I’ll leave that to the people who make their living there. I’m coming regardless of the density of any particular species. It’s beautiful and relaxing. If I’m trophy fishing for any species I’ll take to the internet, do my research and find out which TV personalities, guides and resort owners are doing the best job of convincing me to come to their lake. Short answer to the question… If trophy muskies are your passion they are still present in Big V. But, they are probably easier to catch elsewhere.
This is good stuff and I’m for stocking more muskies within reason, but I think we could also be talking about how to maximize survival of stocked fish and improve potential natural reproduction! Protect/restore these areas, that way in years like 2020 if for some reason fish can’t be stocked it gives the best chance at outputting fish still!
Hi Josh, can you suggest to the DNR folks to research the development of a more self-sustaining fishery where natural spawning takes place? I know that fish typically don't reproduce well in stocked lakes. My theory is that fish don't spawn because they "can't find the right spot" because they have incorrectly "imprinted" on their hatchery location. Scientists know that salmon return to the same river to spawn where they were spawned. So, they must "imprint" and geo-locate on the river during early growth and development. Similarly, stocked musky should be reared on a dock/floating barge in a preselected spawning bay on the intended target lake during their initial development stages until they "imprint". Then, they can be transported to a hatchery for "finishing" before they are returned to the lake for stocking. The big questions are: how long does it take to "imprint", and do the fish need to see the sky or not (to visualize the earth's magnetic field) in order to imprint? There is already enough research on salmon to support my theory and assist with development of a study. More importantly, why not just try it and see if it works? I understand that this approach will cost more money in the short term. However in the long term, it should cost less money.
There are far more Muskies in the lake today than I ever imagined. This I know thanks to Livescope. What I also now know is that these Muskies are extremely boat shy. A high percentage of them will slowly follow, then become aware of the boat and stop - typically 30’ out and 10’ down - never being seen by the naked eye. Follow to bite ratios of 50:1 are the norm for me. That’s fishing pressure causing avoidance behavior. Catch rates have suffered as a result. When those same fish were exposed to angling for the first time, they bit far more frequently. That’s just not the case today and probably never will be again. Lower catch rates can be a function of both angling pressure and overall population. In the case of V today, the former and not the latter seems to be the primary driver of poorer success rates. Just telling you what I’ve seen with my own eyes and has been confirmed through various studies I read about the effects of angling pressure on fish catches.
More than the DNR
We need to pressure the buisness community aka
Lodge owners
They have the governors ear
They have to/should see the value in musky angling
And this day and age of different species anglers not liking each other and bad mouthing each other doesn't help
It's forced resort owners (and even some bait shops)
To take sides
And
Is this a funding problem that is holding back stocking? If so, is there a way to generate more funding for stocking muskies? Musky fisherman bring millions and millions of dollars to MN resorts, restaurants, gas stations, bait shops, etc. Why jeopardize that if the problem is some fraction of that dollar amount for stocking muskies?
What happened?...isn't there like over ten fishing lodges on the lake,how.many like hundreds of party's fishing,like probably some mortality by improper handling and all these fishing aids,,not to mention local fishing
Combination of many factors. Stocking is probably #2 after fishing pressure. People really need to learn to stop bragging about their trips to vermilion. Or any lake for that matter. Nobody cares about the 50" fish you caught anymore. Keep it to yourself and enjoy the fish. Treat the lakes and the fish with respect and not just your playground for the week you come up.
Gotta stop wasting money and stocking fingerlings...