Flatten the hammer point then drill it out and put a hardened steel pin in to act as a fiering pin. Might take some adjusting with a file but it would work.
Big Daddy Dons That would probably work but over time you would destroy the threads. It would take a while but I would not thread something that is going to take the brunt of the force every time you fire it. I would just put a hardened pin in. Don’t even need to solder it. Just heat up the hammer and freeze the pin before tapping it in.
In 2008 I worked for Remington in Ilion for 6 months as part of an internship. During that time all of their shotguns were hand assembled and fitted, especially the semi-auto shotguns. It was very common for the semi-autos to require "fine tuning" after being test fired. While I was there they implemented an assembly line for the 870 shotgun. When I first got there, I couldn't believe that they didn't have any actual assembly lines.
I've been watching videos from this channel for a long time and there's constantly always something I'm impressed by. Instead of railing on a weapon's features that (in modern times) most other gun reviewers would call stupid, pointless, or ridiculous, Ian always points out the historical context of these features and gives them a more interesting reason for their implementation. I admire that; it's something I almost never see.
Really great, Ian. Amazing to think of that level of complexity in 1874, and amazing to see the state-of-the-art manufacturing capabilities of that time! "Interchangeable parts" required fitters with intimate knowledge of the workings. This is a fantastic glimpse into the history of technology and manufacturing in general!. Great stuff. PLUS.... The French always seem to have a unique way when it comes to mechanical things. This is a good example.
Glad to see you are getting that old girl back in fighting shape. I read about the French 1873 model revolver in a magazine when I first really got into guns some years ago. I thought it sounded like a cool handgun then, even though they wrote that the round it chambered was really low-powered. One can tell by looking at the parts that a lot of care went into the manufacture of those old revolvers.
This vid really shows how revolutionary was the introduction of parts interchangeability, brought about by the master gauge system. We researched how this was developed in the UK in WW1. Without it, the war may well have been lost before US forces arrived in 1917. Thanks Ian for finding and sharing this interesting and important engineering story.
Another excellent reminder that a firearm with many parts serial numbered is not the manufacturer saying, "We are so proud of this piece that we are going to mark all the parts." It is, rather, the manufacturer saying, "we are not very confident in our ability to make fully interchangeable parts."
+SearTrip also, serial numbers show that the parts where made legally. The US is a bit unique in that every part that ISN'T a receiver (or made for fully-auto guns) can be had without any paperwork.
+Dor Aran This is a revolver, used by the knobhead Ruperts who ordered real working soldiers to their deaths, very rarely used for real business. So it's just jewellery, as much use as a Kardashian.
Thank you for this. I appreciate all the extra videos that you make and share outside of your standard showcase videos. I learn more than I ever thought I would from them.
Great video, reminds me of a customers 1911 that he pieced together from a bunch of gunbroker and ebay listings. The pistol all fit together fine externally but the trigger took substantial amount of work to work smoothly and reliably. If anyone was wondering it was an Auto Ordinance frame, Colt "Government Model" series 70 slide and barrel, Sig-Saur grips and trigger and a mashup of Taurus and Remington internals.
Glad you are handing it over to a smith to build up the firing pin (that's what I would have done first, but I do weld and machine). One point though, as a machinist type, Don't line up the notches, line up the pin hole. This shows the differences between the notches more precisely.
Ian, this was an interesting change of pace from your weapon overview videos. I really like that you showed us this issue you were having. Please make more videos like this.
I'm glad you finally went with fixing the firing pin rather than swapping out the hammer since you got matching numbers on all the parts inside, I reckon it will retain its value better that way.
Excellent! My first thought was welding the firing pin also, but wasn't quit sure if the heat would affect the rest of the hammer. My second thought was if the pin could be removed, taping the face of hammer and threading a new replacement pin, kinda like changing tips on a arrow shaft. I like your idea best because it's a lot less complicated and less time to fix it.
Recently faced a little fitting issue replacing the barrel on a post war Ortgies. The barrel twists to the side for removal. The new (to me) barrel from Numrich, though visually identical, would not rotate fully back into position. I was able to use a stone to gently relieve a few thousandths from the stop, part of the frame, giving me a square fit. Many times firearms designers leave room for fitting in softer parts. Not the case with your revolver it seems.
If the firing pin's dimensions are flexible, that is a HIGHER tolerance fit, meaning that it is more tolerant of discrepancy. The usual terms used are "close tolerance" foe a fussy fit, and "wide tolerance" for a close-enough-that'll-do fir. Just FYI.
thanks Ian, I've been a fan for a long time. I would like this to expand into a series about the movement from hand craftsmanship into interchangeable parts.
That was a really interesting video, in two ways. First, it gives us a feel for what it was like, back in the days when parts were not interchangeable. This must have been pretty inconvenient! And I was kind of surprised, too, that manufacturing processes for major gun makers did not all involve interchangeable parts already by the late 19th century. I would have figured this innovation had kicked in a bit earlier. Second, your revolver has a really thoughtful and clever design, in that it requires minimal tools even for detailed assembly/disassembly. Very cool.
Interesting that a pistol with very little interchangeability of parts is so easily disassembled. I love that mainspring tension release, very cool idea.
This brings me to my current conundrum with my C-96. So many of the small parts were hand fit it makes things very difficult to find proper replacements. Even if someone were to create new production parts there's such a wide variance in tolerating that if it's going to be put in an original there is going to be fitting involved.
Pretty cool to see the handiwork of a single gunsmith on a pistol of this age. Even during the heyday of the industrial revolution these skills were still required!
I ran into this same problem with a 1980 Colt Cobra. I learned that the old way of manufacture was to make over size parts so they could be filed to fit. I had to give it to My brother -in law to get it done right. Surprisingly Colt did not change this process until 2000.
Welding will work pretty well, I was also going to suggest that you could drill the center of the firing pin spur and press in a roller from a needle bearing which should work quite well without subjecting it to heat stress. You could drill it for a slight interference fit and use some Loctite on it too. You could warm the hammer in a toaster oven and freeze the pin for a heat shrink fit too. You could also completely cut the old spur off and drill/tap a hole or do an interference fit for a whole new firing pin spur that threads in/interference fits the hammer. Would be pretty easy to turn one in a lathe and part it off.
In BCT, they told us that the parts inside our rifles, like the bolt carrier group, buffer, buffer spring, etc, were all put in there when the rifle was produced in the factory and that the parts of our M4s had developed scratches and marks inside the rifles that were unique to just our rifles. They also told us that swapping parts between rifles was a potentially bad thing. While the later I've held my doubts about, I know a good deal that firearms, at least their assembly, is still done by hand, mostly.
As a bladesmith I work with hardened steel all the time and as long as the hardness if the metal is below about 65-70 hrc(rocwell) it can be filed down but it will be hard on your files otherwise you must use abrasive papers or stones
don't really see why it would be case hardened rather than hardened all the way through, would be easier to harden it throughout (amateur bladesmith here)
RVRgeek Cost of materials and wear and tear of machinery. Case hardening an inexpensive iron rather than shaping a more expensive steel or steel alloy. In more modern terms, a mechanically declined driver broke a gear in the PTO train of a tow truck. The trucks owner had a friend who as favour used high pressure water jet to cut a new gear out of stainless steel,I think it was. Since it was a one off,using expensive material made sense. Had it been a production part,a less expensive steel would have been subjected to a series of steps,culminating in a gear that had lower unit cost.Five years later, I asked the owner, it was running flawlessly. Pretty much the same idea here I think. The tradesmen journeymen creating this part would have used true cast steel as apprentices,and true wrought iron,as opposed to Bessemer mild steel was part of the way things were built.So hardening wrought iron was something shown to them as young men.You harden where it is needed.
RVRgeek: The reason it is case hardened is because that is the only way it will be strong enough to do the job, if it were hardened right through some letting down,(tempering) would have to be done to prevent chipping off at the stress points, by case hardening you get a glass hard surface of about .020" with a tough core, the best of both worlds.
While you cannot (reasonably) file (with a steel file) hardened steel surfaces, you can always diamond-file or grind them. You can also abrade them with silicon carbide provided that you do so manually, not under power... or if under power, only if you keep it wet with water to keep the temperature down.
You can fit the new hammer to your revolver by using the proper files to get the fit, then hone stones to polish the surfaces then use Kasenit to harden the parts after the work is done.
Had a Swedish friend come to me with the same, broken firing pin on his 12ga. Easy fix in the same way. Migged a blob on the end, filed it to the right shape and hardened with a gas torch followed by an oil bath. Easy peasy. Took less than 2 hrs. Hope you didn't pay too much for yours.
I would like to see what the Seer would look like if the pivot pin hole was lined up between the Hammers. In the video you can see that even though you have one lined up and the bodies lined up the pivot pin hole is off. As a gunsmith Yes adding to the firing pin is the best way to go you get to keep an original part and make a nice seamless repair.
Interesting, I've been tinkering with a pair of Savage 1907 pistols. One's in the 10K range, the other's in the 1K range. The subtle differences in design are astounding. Back on topic, I ended up getting another ejector for one of them, and ended up spending the better part of two hours slowly filing it down to fit. You would think that tolerances on something like that would be okay, but the few thousandths made all the difference in the world. Even though Eli Whitney came up with the concept decades before, true parts interchange and designs that are not as tolerance dependent are wonders of modern technology. That revolver rocks, what are you doing in the way of ammo? .45 auto loaded with black powder or did you manage to score some real French stuff? The stock ammo seems really anemic, but maybe that's because it's black powder.
To tinker on heat tempered surfaces there are special files plated with diamond dust from industrial diamonds , .....one can use these to take off smaller amounts of material from such hardened steel surfaces , .......just in case , ......though welding up a new firing pin surely comes easier than tinkering on an imperfect spare part .
Hope it'll work like you want to. I understand why you first buy a new hammer, you wanted a substantial more rigid and solid hammer tip them a welded one, but i guess it'll work fine. These revolvers are some beauties, and respect for the KISS-principle in the engeneering. Interesting period for weapons design. I'd be happy to see more gunsmithing vids, Ian.
when lineing up the hammers you need to put a pin through the central hole to referance off just matching the curves and teeth with the pivot point misaligned will laeve it still not working
+Thelothuo It would only take an hour or two with a coarse diamond stone to take the interfaces down, and the temper should extend at least a millimeter into the steel. The replacement hammer is totally viable, you just need to grind it by hand to prevent drawing the temper. That, or slap it into a vertical mill. Modifying the original hammer further will have a significant effect on the gun's value. Better to mess about with a low value part than an original.
Or you could consider cutting the firing pin 'cone' off then drill and tap a centered, threaded hole that a new cone can be threaded into (think 'replaceable firing pin' ).
Welding will end up with an original appearing and number matching hammer. As an alternative to welding you might consider drilling and tapping a hole in the base of the old firing pin and threading or just drilling then brazing/silver soldering in a rod contoured to match the original firing pin shape.
+Andre Krumins neither would brazing material, however the impact would be against the pin inserted in the hole. The brazing/soldering material would only hold the pin in the drilled hole in lieu of threading the hole and rod and screwing it into the hammer. Under impact the pin would be 'pushed' by the bottom of the hole.
How would the value of this pistol be affected if it was: a) Left clipped? b) Welded and grinded so that all the serial numbers match? c) Hammer replaced with mismatched serial numbers? d) In original condition? I know that the value of an item is only what someone is willing to pay for it at the time, but in your experience what would be the rough dollars and cents impact of modification/repair work?
What about just cutting off the firing pin from the replacement hammer and on the old hammer and then welding the replacement firing pin onto the old hammer?
I don't think you need much to fix that, you could soften the metal by heating it up and letting it cool slowly, do your grinding and fitting, then re-harden the metal with an oil quench while in critical temperature
Thanks Ian, this was a really interesting video, would they have been fully hand cut from a billet or cast to a rough fit and then hand finished? Excuse my ignorance
I'd grind off the old pin, drill a tap a hole, have a new firing pin made at a machine shop with thread, then thread it on, thats just an idea though. you could have it made to look the same, there'd just be a little seem at the base of the pin
Once the new pin gets welded on in place its gunna need to be re heat treated. The welding and subsequent grinding will mess with the original part of the pin\ hammer.
Would it also be an option to cut the new hammer at the rectangle part, do the same on the old hammer and weld the old "round" part to the new rectangle part (including the firing pin etc). This must be super unclear, English isn't my first language and then to have to explain something technical is really difficult.
As I remember my fire arms history, as far as handguns go it was Colt that truly changed manufacturing by making guns that you could truly interchange parts. It took other makers who were still hand making guns as individual items to catch up with this idea. Now at the time this was not important , because every fire arms dealer was also usually a gun smith , if you had a broken part they would normally make and fit a part NOT order a new part from the manufacturer.
The nice thing about modern technology is at some point you'll be able to recreate old hard to find or broken parts with 3D printing and hand fit the parts into place. Still, an excellent video as always :)
+Galahad Potentially, in some situations, but it wouldn't work in this one as I've yet to see a 3D printer that can selectively heat treat parts so that those sears are hard enough to maintain their edge, but the rest of the hammer is flexible enough not to crack due to fatigue when it's fired repeatedly.
+TeaDaemon You could 3D metal powder print it and then heat treat it after, but then you need a forge or other heat treating setup. Though don't know how good quality you can get out of 3D metal print. Since it is made out of essentially flash molten powder and not out of solid cast or forge, it might be weak. Then again they use 3D printed metal parts in rocket motors and jet engines, so apparently with proper enough equipment you can create very durable parts. Thing is those printing machines cost tens or even hundreds of thousand of dollars.
+Ari Takalo To be honest, I'm already very impressed with the ability of current 3D printing technology has to produce strong, durable parts using a method (sintering) that's traditionally been mostly used as a cheap and easy way to manufacture components that aren't going to be subjected to significant stress. Having said that, it's important to realise that whilst 3D printers can do a lot of things, there's still a lot that you can't do with them, and this component would be a good example. As you say, you could 3D print a replacement and then heat treat it afterwards, but would that really be a significant improvement over just machining it the old-fashioned way? In my industry (boats), one of the advantages of 3D printing is that you can create components without having to design them so that they can be easily machined out of a solid block or welded together from standard-sized stock, so you can get some quite significant weight savings (up to 50% in some cases) over traditionally made components.
+TeaDaemon Yeah i completely agree. I guess my comment was more geared toward the future and the potential of where the technology can go. Another optional route would be to wire EDM the part.
Ian, why not weld a blob on the end of the original firing pin and file it down to size, more original than a replacement with a different number? Cheers Allan
Hey Ian, could you keep us informed as to how that repair turns out? Maybe ask the gunsmith what filler rod he ends up using, if he's willing to share that info? We use Tartan TIG rods for stuff like that, but it's always cool to hear about what other people are doing. Thanks a lot.
There is another easier option. Align the two according to one (functional) surface and the pivot. Use some layout fluid to trace the functional one onto the one you want to fit. (this acts as only a rough guide) Then either wet grind, or use a file, to adjust the profile until it fits. (checking often) The work is pretty trivial to do actually.
+Lupinus9x19 Shockingly, I actually watched the video through to the end prior to commenting. It really isn't as difficult as he is making it sound. While the part is hardened there, it is highly unlikely to be sufficiently hardened and a high carbon enough grade of steel that, hardened or not, one couldn't attack it with an O1 steel file.
+Whatfor5 Being able to file it down isn't the problem. Go back and rewatch from 6:25 or so. When you file away at a hardened part and don't retreat the part you will have wear. Depending on the differences in the hardness of the parts, surprisingly fast wear. That creates a potentially unsafe condition quickly as he explains in the video.
+Whatfor5 the type of grinding isn't the issue. It's that that once you file off the surface you have softer metal interfacing with harder metal leading to problems, unless you redo the hardening yourself.
I suppose I'm a bit biased since I work metal myself, but I was wondering why you'd go to all the effort of getting a replacement hammer when you could so easily attach a new firing-pin tip. You wouldn't even necessarily need to disassemble the gun to do it!
I'm not the most knowledgeable person on this subject, but I think you might be able to repair the original hammer via wielding. I know when ever I screw up drilling a hole into sheet metal, I can wield it close then grind off the excess material. Maybe if you wield a lot of material onto the end point of the hammer, you can grind point into its original shape. As a bonus, you can keep all of your S/N's consistent.
Ian, I'm just curious, would you ever be up for someone mailing you a 'forgotten' weapon to take a look at? I'm out in California, and I have a Sauer 1913 pistol my grandfather brought back from WW2. It is fully stamped with WW1 era markings (his story is he took it off a POW, so I'm guessing it saw service in both wars). It's kinda a neat little unknown pocket pistol, that looks strangely modern (almost like something out of Flash Gordon). The main issue is that the magazine catch has some problems- racking the bolt ejects the magazine a few millimeters, and taking out the magazine means having to either hold the magazine catch down the whole while, or pulling the magazine down about half way, then pressing the catch again to remove it entirely. I'm guessing there's just something with the magazine that got bent or such though.
Thoughout the video I was thinking, why does he not just break out the tig welder and fix the original? I guess you thought just replacing it would be easier, ha. Fat chance. I have the same issue with 1911s. I guess some parts in some firearms just can not be made to be easily replacable. In the T33, they got it right. The entire hammer unit is one module piece. If it breaks, ditch the old one and drop in the new one.
How common is this sort of thing among small arms of the late 19th/ early 20th century? Would these parts have been made in a different factory? Was mass-production technology just not in a place where this could be avoided at the time? What accounts for such a significant difference between what, in theory, should be completely interchangeable parts? Cool video!
+Red Burton At this time even guns made in a factory are essentially being put together by individual gunsmiths, and whilst the components would be made on a production line, they would go to the gunsmith oversized and be filed to fit, so they're not actually interchangeable between all guns of a specific model. That's one reason why a lot of those components are individually marked with the gun's serial number. This was actually a significant problem for mass-production as late as the 1940s. I know the UK managed to get the plans for the 40mm Bofors AA gun in 1939, but couldn't start mass production until about 1941 in part because most of the components were labelled 'file to fit' (the other reason was that the plans were in metric and all of the tools and raw materials were in imperial measurements).
Welding up the original and regrinding is the ONLY way I would have ever tried to repair that gun. I never in a million years would have thought ANYONE would have the proper replacement part. That's just the way I think though. I would have been at the range shooting it,before you ever got a chance to order the part .
When you compare their profiles I don't think you should be alligning them with that notch, you should stick a pin into them instead, then from there see if there is enough excess material on the spare to file it to fit. soften the metal first then reharden it or have someone else do all of that.
+Forgotten Weapons My bad: I couldn't see the rest of the action. Which model of sights does it have? How do you like the Harris - style magazine? Cheers! ~ Tom
So, back in the day, the gunsmith would have hand fitted those parts and serialised them BEFFORE heat treating. Then heat treated a batch of components. Then selected the right components for the right gun for assembly?
I love how this revolver has the tools needed to take it apart within itself.
Flatten the hammer point then drill it out and put a hardened steel pin in to act as a fiering pin. Might take some adjusting with a file but it would work.
That's more complicated - good luck filing down a hardened pin. Welding+grinding does the job - and keeps the original look.
or weld onto it and mill it down to spec
Thread the pin into the hammer with a set bolt
Big Daddy Dons That would probably work but over time you would destroy the threads. It would take a while but I would not thread something that is going to take the brunt of the force every time you fire it. I would just put a hardened pin in. Don’t even need to solder it. Just heat up the hammer and freeze the pin before tapping it in.
In 2008 I worked for Remington in Ilion for 6 months as part of an internship. During that time all of their shotguns were hand assembled and fitted, especially the semi-auto shotguns. It was very common for the semi-autos to require "fine tuning" after being test fired. While I was there they implemented an assembly line for the 870 shotgun. When I first got there, I couldn't believe that they didn't have any actual assembly lines.
I've been watching videos from this channel for a long time and there's constantly always something I'm impressed by. Instead of railing on a weapon's features that (in modern times) most other gun reviewers would call stupid, pointless, or ridiculous, Ian always points out the historical context of these features and gives them a more interesting reason for their implementation. I admire that; it's something I almost never see.
The solution from the end is exactly what I've been thinking about whole video. Put a goop of metal onto the tip and then just grind it down.
I just respect so much how the old craftsmen used to incorporate tools into the weapons for disassembly !
Really great, Ian. Amazing to think of that level of complexity in 1874, and amazing to see the state-of-the-art manufacturing capabilities of that time! "Interchangeable parts" required fitters with intimate knowledge of the workings. This is a fantastic glimpse into the history of technology and manufacturing in general!. Great stuff. PLUS.... The French always seem to have a unique way when it comes to mechanical things. This is a good example.
Glad to see you are getting that old girl back in fighting shape. I read about the French 1873 model revolver in a magazine when I first really got into guns some years ago. I thought it sounded like a cool handgun then, even though they wrote that the round it chambered was really low-powered. One can tell by looking at the parts that a lot of care went into the manufacture of those old revolvers.
This vid really shows how revolutionary was the introduction of parts interchangeability, brought about by the master gauge system. We researched how this was developed in the UK in WW1. Without it, the war may well have been lost before US forces arrived in 1917. Thanks Ian for finding and sharing this interesting and important engineering story.
Another excellent reminder that a firearm with many parts serial numbered is not the manufacturer saying, "We are so proud of this piece that we are going to mark all the parts." It is, rather, the manufacturer saying, "we are not very confident in our ability to make fully interchangeable parts."
+SearTrip
In German firearms its the first scenario coupled with extreme OCD LOL
+sergeantbigmac Even with the Germans it showed a lack of faith in the interchangeability of their parts.
+SearTrip also, serial numbers show that the parts where made legally. The US is a bit unique in that every part that ISN'T a receiver (or made for fully-auto guns) can be had without any paperwork.
+Dor Aran This is a revolver, used by the knobhead Ruperts who ordered real working soldiers to their deaths, very rarely used for real business. So it's just jewellery, as much use as a Kardashian.
+DFX2KX in the us, you dont even need a serial number. if you make it, it don't need it.
Thank you for this. I appreciate all the extra videos that you make and share outside of your standard showcase videos. I learn more than I ever thought I would from them.
+Brigand231's Videos Thanks!
Great video, reminds me of a customers 1911 that he pieced together from a bunch of gunbroker and ebay listings. The pistol all fit together fine externally but the trigger took substantial amount of work to work smoothly and reliably. If anyone was wondering it was an Auto Ordinance frame, Colt "Government Model" series 70 slide and barrel, Sig-Saur grips and trigger and a mashup of Taurus and Remington internals.
Glad you are handing it over to a smith to build up the firing pin (that's what I would have done first, but I do weld and machine). One point though, as a machinist type, Don't line up the notches, line up the pin hole. This shows the differences between the notches more precisely.
This was great. I really miss your gunsmithing/machining videos from years past, Ian.
Ahh numrich, no matter how obscure the gun, theyve always got every screw and every spring. Shine on you crazy diamond
Ian, this was an interesting change of pace from your weapon overview videos. I really like that you showed us this issue you were having. Please make more videos like this.
Great video Ian. Your're obviously a bonafide gunsmith as well as a historian. Wish I had your skills man. A joy watching you work. Cheers.
Very cool. One of the thing I love about older firearms is the level of craftsmanship and hand-fitting they received.
I'm certainly glad production methods have improved tremendously since the 1870's. What a PITA!
I'm glad you finally went with fixing the firing pin rather than swapping out the hammer since you got matching numbers on all the parts inside, I reckon it will retain its value better that way.
being a amatures tig welder... that lightbulb did go off in my head.... good luck with your project.
i had one of those !! i traded it to a french ww 1 reenactor
friend for an SVT and now he brings it with him to events in a display cabinet
Excellent! My first thought was welding the firing pin also, but wasn't quit sure if the heat would affect the rest of the hammer. My second thought was if the pin could be removed, taping the face of hammer and threading a new replacement pin, kinda like changing tips on a arrow shaft. I like your idea best because it's a lot less complicated and less time to fix it.
Recently faced a little fitting issue replacing the barrel on a post war Ortgies. The barrel twists to the side for removal. The new (to me) barrel from Numrich, though visually identical, would not rotate fully back into position. I was able to use a stone to gently relieve a few thousandths from the stop, part of the frame, giving me a square fit. Many times firearms designers leave room for fitting in softer parts. Not the case with your revolver it seems.
If the firing pin's dimensions are flexible, that is a HIGHER tolerance fit, meaning that it is more tolerant of discrepancy. The usual terms used are "close tolerance" foe a fussy fit, and "wide tolerance" for a close-enough-that'll-do fir. Just FYI.
thanks Ian, I've been a fan for a long time. I would like this to expand into a series about the movement from hand craftsmanship into interchangeable parts.
It´s good to hear the right and wrong way to fix gun realated stuff.
This and Inrange are my favorite gun channels anymore.
That was a really interesting video, in two ways.
First, it gives us a feel for what it was like, back in the days when parts were not interchangeable. This must have been pretty inconvenient! And I was kind of surprised, too, that manufacturing processes for major gun makers did not all involve interchangeable parts already by the late 19th century. I would have figured this innovation had kicked in a bit earlier.
Second, your revolver has a really thoughtful and clever design, in that it requires minimal tools even for detailed assembly/disassembly. Very cool.
I really enjoy watch you share that kind of knowledge, dude. Keep up the good work.
Interesting that a pistol with very little interchangeability of parts is so easily disassembled. I love that mainspring tension release, very cool idea.
This brings me to my current conundrum with my C-96. So many of the small parts were hand fit it makes things very difficult to find proper replacements. Even if someone were to create new production parts there's such a wide variance in tolerating that if it's going to be put in an original there is going to be fitting involved.
I was going to suggest biding up with hard weld and reshaping. glad to hear it will be firing again.
Pretty cool to see the handiwork of a single gunsmith on a pistol of this age. Even during the heyday of the industrial revolution these skills were still required!
I ran into this same problem with a 1980 Colt Cobra. I learned that the old way of manufacture was to make over size parts so they could be filed to fit. I had to give it to My brother -in law to get it done right. Surprisingly Colt did not change this process until 2000.
Welding will work pretty well, I was also going to suggest that you could drill the center of the firing pin spur and press in a roller from a needle bearing which should work quite well without subjecting it to heat stress. You could drill it for a slight interference fit and use some Loctite on it too. You could warm the hammer in a toaster oven and freeze the pin for a heat shrink fit too. You could also completely cut the old spur off and drill/tap a hole or do an interference fit for a whole new firing pin spur that threads in/interference fits the hammer. Would be pretty easy to turn one in a lathe and part it off.
In BCT, they told us that the parts inside our rifles, like the bolt carrier group, buffer, buffer spring, etc, were all put in there when the rifle was produced in the factory and that the parts of our M4s had developed scratches and marks inside the rifles that were unique to just our rifles. They also told us that swapping parts between rifles was a potentially bad thing. While the later I've held my doubts about, I know a good deal that firearms, at least their assembly, is still done by hand, mostly.
As a bladesmith I work with hardened steel all the time and as long as the hardness if the metal is below about 65-70 hrc(rocwell) it can be filed down but it will be hard on your files otherwise you must use abrasive papers or stones
+Connor Myers-Norton My concern was that the part is probably only surface hardened, and a substantial change in profile would require re-hardening.
Of course, and I completely agree with your course of action, repairing the original part is what I would have done(but I'm no gunsmith)
don't really see why it would be case hardened rather than hardened all the way through, would be easier to harden it throughout (amateur bladesmith here)
RVRgeek Cost of materials and wear and tear of machinery. Case hardening an inexpensive iron rather than shaping a more expensive steel or steel alloy. In more modern terms, a mechanically declined driver broke a gear in the PTO train of a tow truck. The trucks owner had a friend who as favour used high pressure water jet to cut a new gear out of stainless steel,I think it was. Since it was a one off,using expensive material made sense. Had it been a production part,a less expensive steel would have been subjected to a series of steps,culminating in a gear that had lower unit cost.Five years later, I asked the owner, it was running flawlessly. Pretty much the same idea here I think. The tradesmen journeymen creating this part would have used true cast steel as apprentices,and true wrought iron,as opposed to Bessemer mild steel was part of the way things were built.So hardening wrought iron was something shown to them as young men.You harden where it is needed.
RVRgeek: The reason it is case hardened is because that is the only way it will be strong enough to do the job, if it were hardened right through some letting down,(tempering) would have to be done to prevent chipping off at the stress points, by case hardening you get a glass hard surface of about .020" with a tough core, the best of both worlds.
While you cannot (reasonably) file (with a steel file) hardened steel surfaces, you can always diamond-file or grind them. You can also abrade them with silicon carbide provided that you do so manually, not under power... or if under power, only if you keep it wet with water to keep the temperature down.
You can fit the new hammer to your revolver by using the proper files to get the fit, then hone stones to polish the surfaces then use Kasenit to harden the parts after the work is done.
Not to mention the missing notch next to the eyelet on the replacement hammer ;)
More to the point, at 7:05 the pivot holes are NOT lined up!!
You really couldn't resist that pun in the title, now didn't you? :D
Had a Swedish friend come to me with the same, broken firing pin on his 12ga. Easy fix in the same way. Migged a blob on the end, filed it to the right shape and hardened with a gas torch followed by an oil bath. Easy peasy. Took less than 2 hrs. Hope you didn't pay too much for yours.
I would like to see what the Seer would look like if the pivot pin hole was lined up between the Hammers.
In the video you can see that even though you have one lined up and the bodies lined up the pivot pin hole is off.
As a gunsmith Yes adding to the firing pin is the best way to go you get to keep an original part and make a nice seamless repair.
Seriously vid, clear detail on hand fitting on older guns.
This is one of my favorite videos of yours.
Interesting, I've been tinkering with a pair of Savage 1907 pistols. One's in the 10K range, the other's in the 1K range. The subtle differences in design are astounding. Back on topic, I ended up getting another ejector for one of them, and ended up spending the better part of two hours slowly filing it down to fit. You would think that tolerances on something like that would be okay, but the few thousandths made all the difference in the world. Even though Eli Whitney came up with the concept decades before, true parts interchange and designs that are not as tolerance dependent are wonders of modern technology.
That revolver rocks, what are you doing in the way of ammo? .45 auto loaded with black powder or did you manage to score some real French stuff? The stock ammo seems really anemic, but maybe that's because it's black powder.
Old revolvers have a certain signature mechanical exquisiteness.
To tinker on heat tempered surfaces there are special files plated with diamond dust from industrial diamonds , .....one can use these to take off smaller amounts of material from such hardened steel surfaces , .......just in case , ......though welding up a new firing pin surely comes easier than tinkering on an imperfect spare part .
In his old video on the Mle 1873 revolver, Ian mocked that the internal parts all had serial numbers.
Now he knows why.
Hope it'll work like you want to. I understand why you first buy a new hammer, you wanted a substantial more rigid and solid hammer tip them a welded one, but i guess it'll work fine.
These revolvers are some beauties, and respect for the KISS-principle in the engeneering. Interesting period for weapons design. I'd be happy to see more gunsmithing vids, Ian.
I am a welder for living, 45 years. The first thing I said was "weld a new tip, then machine". Welding fixes everything!!!
when lineing up the hammers you need to put a pin through the central hole to referance off just matching the curves and teeth with the pivot point misaligned will laeve it still not working
I have also had the same problem with a modern Smith and Wesson as far as the sear angle. Welcome to the club . lol
Yeah! What about a tour of your personal collection Ian? Bet it's cool... :-)
Good job, I really enjoy your channel. This kind of variety is excellent.
the first hammer, can you tac some weld on the tip and file it down to size and re heat treat it ?
Lol
+Derek S
"They ground the firing pin off."So put it back on!
+Thelothuo It would only take an hour or two with a coarse diamond stone to take the interfaces down, and the temper should extend at least a millimeter into the steel. The replacement hammer is totally viable, you just need to grind it by hand to prevent drawing the temper. That, or slap it into a vertical mill.
Modifying the original hammer further will have a significant effect on the gun's value. Better to mess about with a low value part than an original.
That makes sense
Eureka MarUu
A bit more time-taking, but true.
Or you could consider cutting the firing pin 'cone' off then drill and tap a centered, threaded hole that a new cone can be threaded into (think 'replaceable firing pin' ).
Ian do you have a personal collection of neat firearms? And if you do, will you ever give us a little tour of your collection?
Welding will end up with an original appearing and number matching hammer. As an alternative to welding you might consider drilling and tapping a hole in the base of the old firing pin and threading or just drilling then brazing/silver soldering in a rod contoured to match the original firing pin shape.
+o2wow I don't think Solder has the strength to deal with the impacts.
+Andre Krumins neither would brazing material, however the impact would be against the pin inserted in the hole. The brazing/soldering material would only hold the pin in the drilled hole in lieu of threading the hole and rod and screwing it into the hammer. Under impact the pin would be 'pushed' by the bottom of the hole.
It's awesome that theirs a channel for the iron sights.
Love the gunlab here, you should show us more 'behind the scenes' in your playroom =)
How would the value of this pistol be affected if it was:
a) Left clipped?
b) Welded and grinded so that all the serial numbers match?
c) Hammer replaced with mismatched serial numbers?
d) In original condition?
I know that the value of an item is only what someone is willing to pay for it at the time, but in your experience what would be the rough dollars and cents impact of modification/repair work?
I had just typed in couldn't you use a welder and rebuild the firing tip when you said that's what you were going to do.
i was thinking the exact same thing. I could fix that with a tig welder in about 60 seconds
+God of Thunder (UKKONEN) ditto
What about just cutting off the firing pin from the replacement hammer and on the old hammer and then welding the replacement firing pin onto the old hammer?
I don't think you need much to fix that, you could soften the metal by heating it up and letting it cool slowly, do your grinding and fitting, then re-harden the metal with an oil quench while in critical temperature
that's a real cool revolver, if there available at a reasonable price and safe to shoot looks like it would be fun
Thanks Ian, this was a really interesting video, would they have been fully hand cut from a billet or cast to a rough fit and then hand finished? Excuse my ignorance
I didn't watch the video before I opened my mouth. I will watch the whole thing first in future
I'd grind off the old pin, drill a tap a hole, have a new firing pin made at a machine shop with thread, then thread it on, thats just an idea though. you could have it made to look the same, there'd just be a little seem at the base of the pin
Once the new pin gets welded on in place its gunna need to be re heat treated. The welding and subsequent grinding will mess with the original part of the pin\ hammer.
Would it also be an option to cut the new hammer at the rectangle part, do the same on the old hammer and weld the old "round" part to the new rectangle part (including the firing pin etc).
This must be super unclear, English isn't my first language and then to have to explain something technical is really difficult.
I'm a metrologist and found this episode especially entertaining.
As soon as I saw the cliped tip I thought "time to get out the tig"
Good to know, I just got one as a back up to me blunderbuss.
As I remember my fire arms history, as far as handguns go it was Colt that truly changed manufacturing by making guns that you could truly interchange parts. It took other makers who were still hand making guns as individual items to catch up with this idea.
Now at the time this was not important , because every fire arms dealer was also usually a gun smith , if you had a broken part they would normally make and fit a part NOT order a new part from the manufacturer.
+Shane Bairstow It's an ordonnance mass produce revolver not a consumer goods hand crafted
+Uryendel point taken :-)
The nice thing about modern technology is at some point you'll be able to recreate old hard to find or broken parts with 3D printing and hand fit the parts into place. Still, an excellent video as always :)
+Galahad Potentially, in some situations, but it wouldn't work in this one as I've yet to see a 3D printer that can selectively heat treat parts so that those sears are hard enough to maintain their edge, but the rest of the hammer is flexible enough not to crack due to fatigue when it's fired repeatedly.
+TeaDaemon You could 3D metal powder print it and then heat treat it after, but then you need a forge or other heat treating setup. Though don't know how good quality you can get out of 3D metal print. Since it is made out of essentially flash molten powder and not out of solid cast or forge, it might be weak.
Then again they use 3D printed metal parts in rocket motors and jet engines, so apparently with proper enough equipment you can create very durable parts. Thing is those printing machines cost tens or even hundreds of thousand of dollars.
+Ari Takalo To be honest, I'm already very impressed with the ability of current 3D printing technology has to produce strong, durable parts using a method (sintering) that's traditionally been mostly used as a cheap and easy way to manufacture components that aren't going to be subjected to significant stress. Having said that, it's important to realise that whilst 3D printers can do a lot of things, there's still a lot that you can't do with them, and this component would be a good example. As you say, you could 3D print a replacement and then heat treat it afterwards, but would that really be a significant improvement over just machining it the old-fashioned way?
In my industry (boats), one of the advantages of 3D printing is that you can create components without having to design them so that they can be easily machined out of a solid block or welded together from standard-sized stock, so you can get some quite significant weight savings (up to 50% in some cases) over traditionally made components.
+TeaDaemon Yeah i completely agree. I guess my comment was more geared toward the future and the potential of where the technology can go. Another optional route would be to wire EDM the part.
Ian, why not weld a blob on the end of the original firing pin and file it down to size, more original than a replacement with a different number? Cheers Allan
Hey Ian, could you keep us informed as to how that repair turns out? Maybe ask the gunsmith what filler rod he ends up using, if he's willing to share that info?
We use Tartan TIG rods for stuff like that, but it's always cool to hear about what other people are doing.
Thanks a lot.
F**king interesting video. Let us know how it turns out.
The added metal to the tip of the hammer when welded will actually be stronger than the rest of the metal
Would the additional metal added to the firing pin need to also be heat treated or is the primer light enough to not cause the new metal to deform?
if the weld dont work maybe you can cut the replacement firepin and weld the full piece in the original hammer?
salutes
There is another easier option. Align the two according to one (functional) surface and the pivot. Use some layout fluid to trace the functional one onto the one you want to fit. (this acts as only a rough guide) Then either wet grind, or use a file, to adjust the profile until it fits. (checking often) The work is pretty trivial to do actually.
+Whatfor5 Why this isn't as simple as it sounds was addressed in the video.
+Lupinus9x19 Shockingly, I actually watched the video through to the end prior to commenting. It really isn't as difficult as he is making it sound. While the part is hardened there, it is highly unlikely to be sufficiently hardened and a high carbon enough grade of steel that, hardened or not, one couldn't attack it with an O1 steel file.
+Whatfor5 Being able to file it down isn't the problem. Go back and rewatch from 6:25 or so. When you file away at a hardened part and don't retreat the part you will have wear. Depending on the differences in the hardness of the parts, surprisingly fast wear. That creates a potentially unsafe condition quickly as he explains in the video.
+Lupinus9x19 Hot grinding, yes. Hence, a file or wet grinding.
+Whatfor5 the type of grinding isn't the issue. It's that that once you file off the surface you have softer metal interfacing with harder metal leading to problems, unless you redo the hardening yourself.
I suppose I'm a bit biased since I work metal myself, but I was wondering why you'd go to all the effort of getting a replacement hammer when you could so easily attach a new firing-pin tip. You wouldn't even necessarily need to disassemble the gun to do it!
Ian. Please make a video of this gun after repair.
I'm not the most knowledgeable person on this subject, but I think you might be able to repair the original hammer via wielding. I know when ever I screw up drilling a hole into sheet metal, I can wield it close then grind off the excess material. Maybe if you wield a lot of material onto the end point of the hammer, you can grind point into its original shape. As a bonus, you can keep all of your S/N's consistent.
Do yup think that the original parts were hand fit and modified before heat treatment?
Ian, I'm just curious, would you ever be up for someone mailing you a 'forgotten' weapon to take a look at? I'm out in California, and I have a Sauer 1913 pistol my grandfather brought back from WW2. It is fully stamped with WW1 era markings (his story is he took it off a POW, so I'm guessing it saw service in both wars). It's kinda a neat little unknown pocket pistol, that looks strangely modern (almost like something out of Flash Gordon). The main issue is that the magazine catch has some problems- racking the bolt ejects the magazine a few millimeters, and taking out the magazine means having to either hold the magazine catch down the whole while, or pulling the magazine down about half way, then pressing the catch again to remove it entirely. I'm guessing there's just something with the magazine that got bent or such though.
Could you not use the second part with the matching mating surface from the 1873 pattern you tried the last hammer from?
Thoughout the video I was thinking, why does he not just break out the tig welder and fix the original? I guess you thought just replacing it would be easier, ha. Fat chance. I have the same issue with 1911s. I guess some parts in some firearms just can not be made to be easily replacable. In the T33, they got it right. The entire hammer unit is one module piece. If it breaks, ditch the old one and drop in the new one.
Mechanics... so cool !
Why did you line up the front of the hammers instead of lining up the pivot holes?
How common is this sort of thing among small arms of the late 19th/ early 20th century? Would these parts have been made in a different factory? Was mass-production technology just not in a place where this could be avoided at the time? What accounts for such a significant difference between what, in theory, should be completely interchangeable parts? Cool video!
+Red Burton At this time even guns made in a factory are essentially being put together by individual gunsmiths, and whilst the components would be made on a production line, they would go to the gunsmith oversized and be filed to fit, so they're not actually interchangeable between all guns of a specific model. That's one reason why a lot of those components are individually marked with the gun's serial number.
This was actually a significant problem for mass-production as late as the 1940s. I know the UK managed to get the plans for the 40mm Bofors AA gun in 1939, but couldn't start mass production until about 1941 in part because most of the components were labelled 'file to fit' (the other reason was that the plans were in metric and all of the tools and raw materials were in imperial measurements).
Fascinating! Thanks for the info.
Welding up the original and regrinding is the ONLY way I would have ever tried to repair that gun.
I never in a million years would have thought ANYONE would have the proper replacement part.
That's just the way I think though.
I would have been at the range shooting it,before you ever got a chance to order the part .
Looks like the front of the Hammer Cam is rubbing on the trigger bar.
When you compare their profiles I don't think you should be alligning them with that notch, you should stick a pin into them instead, then from there see if there is enough excess material on the spare to file it to fit. soften the metal first then reharden it or have someone else do all of that.
NICE!
A 1910 MKIII Ross Rifle on the right side, just after the 2 No4 Mk1 Lee Enfields.
+7hart2 Actually, it's a 1905 Ross MKII
+Forgotten Weapons
My bad: I couldn't see the rest of the action.
Which model of sights does it have?
How do you like the Harris - style magazine?
Cheers!
~ Tom
So, back in the day, the gunsmith would have hand fitted those parts and serialised them BEFFORE heat treating. Then heat treated a batch of components. Then selected the right components for the right gun for assembly?
+Mickleblade Indeed. Note that all the parts have matching numbers because of this exact problem. The same thing happens with high end pistols today.