If we keep getting two podcasts drops a week, I’m going to go into Unauthorized History podcast withdrawal after the series ends. Seth and Bill, thank you for doing this!
Great review, thanks, unfortunately many of these movies are made for movie-watchers, not historians. Jim Lovel for instance had issues with how Apollo 13 was shot but Ron Howard explained that the average person wouldn't understand the degree of crisis without some artistic license. I met Harry Crosby years ago, he and my dad went back to their days at Univ. of Iowa. I had read Harrys book "Wing and a Prayer" and Joblonskis book "Flying Fortress" that dedicates a full chapter to the 100th. Very much a character, sort of a long haired bearded bohemian writer type. I think he lived everyday in amazement that he survived what so many did not. We met when I was a full adult and I could have been a kid meeting his hero. It dismays me that we make such commotion of celebrities that celebrate their disfunction while true heroes like Harry live in obscurity, but not so much anymore thanks to podcasts like this. He shared a couple " this is sort of between you and me" type stories that I don't recall reading in his book. All I can say is very interesting.
If I may, I would like to offer another perspective on area bombing as doctrinally adopted by the Commonwealth Air Forces versus precision bombing that was purportedly the primary tactic used by the 8th AF. The theory of precision bombing was indeed the ideal that all air forces wished to use at the outset of the war, however, the theory was not a practical or survivable tactic for the 8th or the RAF to use in the European theatre. In my opinion, 8th AF precision bombing is a myth. I hope you will indulge me as I make my argument. First, the weather was not amenable to precision tactics for a very large proportion of the year. Most missions were completed in very marginal weather where the bomb-aimers had limited or no view of the target. In those cases, a target IP was identified using dead reckoning navigation (or by radar later in the war) and the bombs were dropped on timed runs from the IP to the notional target. Furthermore, even in good weather, the lead navigator and bombardier brought the formation to the target, and the entire group toggled their bombs when the lead dropped - this is not exactly precision bombing by individual aircraft using their Nordens to their best advantage. Secondly, the interlaced arcs of fire and bomber box defensive tactics of a an 8th AF bomb group meant that the group had to maintain formation right up to the target. This formation was rigidly adhered to by all groups and this technique also necessitated a bomb drop that was initiated on the lead bombers cue. A bomber formation could be very wide, and this disciplined adherence to formation defense meant the bombs fell in a wide swath onto the target - the very definition of carpet bombing. So, at the end of the day, the USAAF used pretty much the same bombing tactics that the Commonwealth Air Forces used. The RAF operated at night, which meant their results were initially abysmal compared to day bombing. But by 1943 they had the H2S radar set and Pathfinder techniques, so RAF bombing accuracy had improved immensely by the time of the Ruhr and Berlin offensives. Thanks, gentlemen. PS Love your work - what you guys do is a magnificent public service. Colonel (retired) Jim Irvine, RCAF
Bill, I too flew on the B-17 at the Leesburg air show. After a 20 minute flight (in nice weather) I was drenched in sweat and ready to kiss the ground when I got off. I thought of those crews spending 10 hours in the air in the deafening, freezing aircraft, let alone with someone trying to shoot you down. I was very humbled by the courage of those men who did something day in and day out that I do not think I could do. Thanks to you and Seth for helping to keep history alive.
I've really enjoyed the series and your commentary. My great uncle lost his life in the skies over Germany as a bombardier on a B-17 so this has been very interesting content. We nerded out as a family prior to watching the first episode, reading a letter that one of his surviving crewman wrote my grandmother describing his last moments.
You guys are terrific, thanks for doing this. Imagine sitting in minus 50 degree temps, with open windows in an aluminum tube five miles in the air. You could punch a screwdriver through the skin of the plane, and you know any round that comes through it is going to hit something or someone. No 'escaping and evading' up there. Greatest generation, indeed.
My parents were both veterans of World War II. My father was in the US Navy, South Pacific. While my mother was a WAC stationed here in Everett Washington. She was part of a unit that ferried B-17 bombers from Everett down to Southern California for deployment to the Pacific. She loved her B-17s as much as she loved my father! At least that's what he always told me😅 One of her jobs once they were airborne and out over the ocean, was that she got to fire the 50 Cal machine guns to test them. They also dropped 100, 250, and 500 lb bags of cement over the ocean to test the Nordin bomb site. Speaking of bombing, my mom, who rarely, got air sick, got are sick one time! They opened up the bombay doors so she could hurl out the bombay! There was a little catwalk and they would tether her so she wouldn't go flying out the bombay! As you can imagine, there were some very lively, fun discussions at the dinner table! Particularly when they had buddies over who had served overseas. My dad's stories and those of his buddies were darker because they were actually in the thick of it seeing more action than my dad's 17, 18 old mind, body and spirit could deal with. They're both gone now. For over 30 years. Not a day goes by that I don't miss them. I was raised by two of the finest people from the Greatest Generation that I could possibly ever have hoped for. I'm so proud of my parents for who they were, who they taught me to be and for their contributions to the war. Rest in peace mom and dad, you did your jobs and you did them well.🙏🇺🇲⚓️💯💖😪🍻👍
In regard to the accents, my grandparents grew up in Maine and moved to FL in the 1950s. They still spoke with a distinctive Maine accent until the day they died.
My late friend Nick Dimare, originally from Woburn Massachusetts, although he lived for years in Florida and Tennessee never lost his eastern Massachusetts accent. I still have a bit of a Yankee tone myself even though I have lived in Tennessee for over 30 years.
Thanks for dipping your warm blooded pacific toes into the frigid waters of the Atlantic guys. Never change, but I'm glad you decided to cover this series. My Uncle Bill was a B-17 Tail Gunner in the 15th Airforce, 301st bomb group. He had two confirmed kills and was awarded the Air Medal 4 times in the course of his 51 missions. So I'm thrilled. I wish he could see this series. Although he'd be torqued about the 8th getting all the attention!
I saved a bunch of podcasts to listen to when I was at work. Then you guys started doing this. Had to wait to get Apple TV. Didn’t want spoilers. So glad to be back
To amplify cmdr. Toti voice: I'm waiting too for a good series about US Navy in WWII like Band of Brothers or The Pacific. Many great stories of many great people. Just imagine: USS Wahoo or USS Barb, USS Enterprise and its battles, night action at Guadalcanal, patrol boats at Solomons and New Guinea, Phillipine Sea, Leyte Gulf, terror of kamikaze attacks, convoys on Atlantic and U-boat threat. Potential for a great show bringing history to life is enormous. Edit: Even shipyard and factory battle for producing Liberty ships would be interesting.
Here here. It would be great to see a focus on the numerous surface action gun battles, carriers war, PT boats, and submarines. Include Guadalcanal battles, Leyte Gulf, Barb would be incredible. Tactical air units would be tough to choose because of all the incredible units in Theatre. Black sheep come to mind. Then there are there’s Bong and the Flying Circus, etc. Let’s keep hoping for a series.
For years I've thought of Midway as the most interesting Pacific naval battle, but just recently I've switched. Taffy 3, at Leyte. If you tried to write that story as fiction, you'd be laughed out of town.
Start the series with the invasion of Guadalcanal, which is where America truly learned how to fight Japan. Long term, Japan was outclassed and doomed, but in second half of 1942, Japan had distinct advantages that the US had to overcome at great cost.
@@markdavis1116 Great series. I'd watch everything I could when it was airing. Couldn't get enough. Love our modern age with access to discussions and conversations we use to not have.
The comparison with BOB and Pacific is inevitable and perhaps relevant. I was astounded by BOB and also by Pacific in respect of learning a what those men did and lived through. "Masters" achieved the same with me. I have read military history for 40 years. Until I saw this I did not come close to understanding the brutality and ferocity of the air battles. In this respect all three series are benchmarks as historical education for those of us who enjoy the fruits of their achievements. Never forget!
I just watched the first episode and enjoyed it. Bill, I liked the crosswind landing in Narsarsuaq Greenland as well. I have to confess, I have about 450 hours of flight time in the B17 (Liberty Belle, Movie Memphis Belle and Madras Maiden)and the technique of bringing up the upwind outboard engine in a heavy crosswind is 100% correct, I’ve done it many times. By the way, I’ve landed at Narsarsuaq (not in a B17 lol) twice in my career and it looks just like that. Looking forward to more. Yes a few things were not right, but they were out weighed but the many things that were correct.👍🏻
The Movie Belle was the first B-17 I saw in person, and got to meet Robert Morgan at the time. I got see Liberty Belle a couple times. Did you get to fly with Mac?
Love your series. Always brings new perspectives and information that is not common knowledge to the average public. Having been in a B17 or two. I can see why they didn't use real B17s especially since we forget that you have to fly these old birds over to the UK. It was a perilous journey then and it is even more so know especially with the recent B17 crashes. I really appreciate your comments from the veterans you got to talk to. I volunteered at a WW2 museum in the artifacts department and reading the battlefield reports and seeing the identification cards and unifroms. I wish I had met a few of these vets as you have. I hope the series shows truth and not misconceptions or myths. I would really like to see P47s as the escorting fighters in 1943 as P51s weren't there in force until early 1944. Unfortunately a lot of 8th Air Force missions were unescorted because of a belief that our planes can defend themselves and fly higher and faster than anything in the air. I look forward to your future reviews and regular series.
I really enjoyed the first two episodes and believe me when I tell you. I was sitting on the edge of my seat on both episodes talking to the tv. It taking 12 years or so before they finally made Masters Of the Air and it was worth every bit of the wait.
As President of the B-17 Rivet Counters Association, I certify the work done on this series as “close enough for government work.“ and I hardly endorse the work you gentlemen have done bringing the work of Rivet counters to the national attention. Keep up the good work, gentlemen!
I liked the detail about the turret gunner freezing his butt off. I read one detail about a pilot who had a hole in the plane that blasted cold air on his foot for hours. He kept his foot, but it took months to recover.
Great review of such a long anticipated debut. I too was a bit skeptical about the way that Harry Crosby was portrayed. Such incompetence as it is portrayed would have been weeded out during training long before the squadron he was in deployed. I can imagine that he may have suffered from air sickness from time to time, as even veteran sailors become seasick during extreme seas, but can't imagine that he would have been debilitated to such an extent as to make him into a dunce. I also appreciated Tommy's point that the use of the oxygen masks was accurately portrayed. It was done so in the film "12 O'clock High" but not so much in the later series of the same name as many scenes shown at high altitudes portrayed the actors not wearing the masks.
Thanks again for giving your expertise on the Masters of the Air Series. Appreciate some insights the three of you shared for your episode. During your discussion, it was mentioned the first 8th Air Force first raids began in 1942. Of interest, Major Paul Tibbets lead as Command Pilot of the lead B-17 in the first B-17 raid over German occupied France. Paul Tibbets was also mentioned as having "Command Presence" similar to what was mentioned for Major Gale Cleven. There were probably many such men with the Command Presence in the 8th Air Force. Looking forward to your future reviews.
Captain Toti, your daughter would probably have a hard time understanding my West Texas drawl. Not sure when I will get a chance to see this, Apple is not something I have. But I will watch the reviews because I really enjoy these podcasts. Looking forward to tomorrows Torpedo Tuesday.
Welcome Tommy to the best podcast on UA-cam. Wonderfully sardonic. Just loved MOA. I realize it is based on a book, however I wish they would have started earlier (mobilization and training).
When it comes to historical accuracy in historical films where wide shots of locations that no longer exist or centered around weapons platforms and systems that no longer exist or are too valuable as artifacts to risk on a movie set, CGI is necessary in order to be authentic in honoring those that are being depicted in film. Films that integrate CGI, where needed, analog effects, and historical builds are a great balance that would be nice to see more of.
Right off the bat, the concern I suspect most viewers have is that they want the writers, producers and directors to avoid falling back on hollywood cliche tropes during this series. There is a penchant among producers, directors, writers and investors to want to turn anything remotely related to historical events into something akin to Rambo on steroids, or Star Wars, certainly in the last few decades. Red Tails comes to mind. I know quite a few people who absolutely cringed at the bomber mission scenes where every luftwaffe fighter apparently had deathstar turbolasers, ripping whole wings off of massive B-17s just by pointing at them, as if the bombers were made of xplodium. Actual combat gun camera footage has shown that these bombers were very hard to knock out of the sky without some effort and certainly without considerable risk to the fighter pilots attacking them. Even Memphis Belle, which I rather enjoyed, played on the hollywood cliches, with that bomber crew acting as if this was their first few missions together. Accounts of the time typically showed these young men were actually quite reserved when on mission, and hyper focused on their duties, and not so much on schoolboy pranks and ribbing. If Masters of the Air really wants to win people over, it doesnt need to compete with BoB or Pacific, it just needs to be well written, well acted, and well portrayed with utmost respect for those involved in the air war over Europe. I remain cautiously optimistic.
Excellent review and commentary as always. Regarding Tommy's comment about there being too much horizontal stabilizer movement, the B-17's horizontals do actually move quite a bit, especially while on the ground. While the CGI might be exaggerating it a bit, it's not too much. I will always prefer real aircraft over CGI but fully understand the limitations of using old aircraft for movies today. When I first heard of this project many years ago I had really hoped they would have been able the access the many hours of air to air footage that hit the cutting room floor from 1990's Memphis Belle. The 2001 Czech film, Dark Blue World, recycled a lot of footage from 1969's Battle of Britain. They re-processed it, added nuances like ejecting shells and improved the air combat scenes. They even changed aircraft markings and increased the number of aircraft. It was phenomenal computer work done by, per Hollywood standards, a low budget film. There's a great description of that work in the DVD's extras.
You guys are awesome. Love your work. Maybe not do the European theater but perhaps the battle of the Atlantic. Think Bill would have a lot to say about the submarine warfare that happened. Either way look forward to more content as I’m currently deployed in Saudi you give me something to watch.
12:35 Great show so far guys, and it's my first. I'd have to agree on the inevitable yet useless comparisons to the previous two shows. However, my only observation is that is BoB and TP we got character depth. In MoA the characters are unidimensional, flat and uninteresting. Thank you for your service gentlemen.
If you know about the 90s movie Memphis Belle, a movie about the B-17 crew mission over Germany, the first episode of the miniseries is kind of similar to the movie, the target of the bombing mission is Bremen, Germany, also in the rendezvousing scene after taking off main character's B-17 almost hit another B-17 deep inside the clouds from below, just like that scene from Memphis Belle.
2:02 Right. You have TONS of topics to cover in Pacific: Peleliu, B-29s, Leyte (many, many parts inc naval battles), Kamikazes, Luzon, Iwo, Okinawa, subs late in war, China, southern Philippines and NEI (what Aussies are doing and why they are left on flank), planned invasions of Kyushu and Tokyo plain. Cant wait.
I thought it more important to watch this assessment of the series before even watching the first episode. I am certainly not judgmental regarding such shows, it is only for the opinion of the gentleman here regarding accuracy that will let me look more intensely at the details. Never a disappointment from this channel.
Thank you Gentlemen. I only recently started getting my Pacific war history straight. I am embarassed it took me so long to round off the complete history. This content is filling in the blanks very well niche by niche.
"Masters of the Air" - Very impressive! Recreating B-17F's on the ground and in the air formations is amazing. The last flyable F model was restored after "Memphis Belle" movie. I attended its arrival at Boeing Field when it "came home.” Series places, units, personnel, uniforms, equipment, procedures and risks and environments are very accurate.
The main benefit of this series is that it is paying homage to the wonderful American 8th Airforce who flew daylight missions from Britain in WWII. The enormous loss rate is testimony to their great courage and commitment to the Allied cause. The loss rate is clear evidence of the risk they took. The greatest generation.
My father was an airplane mechanic in the 15th USAAF. He said the Norden Bombsight was so secret none of the mechanics new everything about it, so it took multiple mechanics to repair it.
I think the comparison to Band Of Brothers is really an apples and oranges comparison. BOB was done something like 23 years ago. Many of the participants were still alive. And were made an integral part of the narrative. I think that created a significant sense of realism and added a real feeling of humanity to the story.
I appreciate you gentlemen filling in some of the stories of the men the characters are based on. My first impression was we were getting a fair bit of Hollywood license and Dick Best levels of overacting. With that in mind, it would be great if you'd be willing to share freely when you see stuff that is actual bologna. Edit: Posted my original comment before you did indeed point out the bologna, so thank you. As far as I'm concerned, if you guys like it, I'll be watching.
Great overview folks, thank you. I am quite pleased with the first two parts. However, they should have added coffee grounds to Col. Huglin's bloody emesis. I won't be able to watch the rest of the series because of this lack of authenticity (sarcasm meter on high). The final mission for Spielberg/Hanks is to focus on the Navy (including at least 2 episodes on subs) in the Pacific.
Col Le May became a one star when he took over the Manhattan project. He was never a 4 star during WWII. After WWII he was in charge the Berlin Airlift and then Strategic Command. He became a full General in 1951.
I gotta agree with the fellas about flying those old warbirds. They were kinda made to die in fire... on these WW2 bases, there were hundreds of engines, big spools of cable, avionic instruments, wing panels, etc and so on. Rather than extreme care, swapping something out was a viable solution, which no longer exists. Longevity of the aircraft, especially engines, was balanced with cost and speed of production. Those old birds are prickly and dangerous....
Promotions in WWII seemed really fast. For example: Curits LeMay. In 1938 the was considered probably the best navigator in the Army Air Corps having led long range (exercise) missions out to sea in the Atlantic to intercept shipping. He was a 1st Lt. at the time. He was a CPT by 1941. Then ranks break into two categories. There was the real rank (he might have made LTC by the end of the war, his "permanent rank" except it wasn't) and his AUS rank (Army of the United States). This was a "temporary" ranks as the Air Force expanded from about 27,,000 men in 1939 to about 4 million by 1945. (The other branches were similar.) I don't know if it was truly a "brevet" rank. Brevet would mean you wore the rank and gain the responsibility and authority associated with that rank but not the pay. If you stayed in after the war you were guaranteed your permanent rank and many were reduced in rank after the war; some to a rank in between their AUS (wartime) rank and actual permanent rank, many to their permanent rank. A few (and LeMay was one of the few) retained their wartime rank permanently in his case MGen.
Let not forgot BOB had the same amount of inaccuracies if not more! At the end of the day its telling history but it has to be good TV. Good podcast enjoyed listening
I became very interested in the B17 and it's service as a kid. That led me to the history of American daylight bombing in Europe and the high cost. Looking forward to watching this series. I remember the BW movie 12 O'Clock High.... I am a bit old.
I've heard it explained that the difference between RAF night bombing and 8th AF daylight bombing as: The RAF did area bombing of precise targets at night and the 8th AF did precision bombing on area targets during the day.
When in the US Navy the only movie we were shown in leadership class was 12 O’Clock high. As a kid I watched every episode of the TV show version . I have seen Memphis Belle the original documentary and the Hollywood movie . So my standard are very high!
Gregory Peck in "12 O'clock High" was an amazing study of the devastating toll command responsibility takes on even the most experienced and capable senior officers in wartime.
I want to know how they’re going to tie in the 99th/332nd fighter group into this. As far as I know they didn’t interact with each other as the Tuskegee were with the 15th Air Force and the 100th was with the 8th.
I really enjoyed the part. You were talking about the Norton bomb site. It would be very neat if you guys could talk about the oath that the bombardiers had to take to protect the bombsight with their lives.
British night bombing was not due to a lack of good bomb sights. It was due to heavy losses on daylight missions. The British put a great deal of effort into accurate night bombing. Early in the war they found how badly they were missing targets. Later each bomber took a photo as it dropped its bombs to check accuracy. They also developed radar and pathfinder squadrons. And post raid recon flights and bomb damage assessments. And other complex navigation and targeting systems. The Germans were able to capture many Norden bomb sites from crashed bombers. Including nearly intact B-17s they could fly. In daylight bombing most of the aiming and navigation was done by the lead bombers as they flew in formation. There has been some research that shows that P-47 Thunderbolts were not being used effectively to escort bombers. Resulting in heavier bomber losses. Including the Swheinfurt missions.
I can not understand how people can compare a soldier on the ground to one in the air, l have seen band of brothers and the Pacific, this series masters of the air is a completely different bag.l am looking forward to seeing this series.
Iirc from reading on a wing and a prayer many years ago, Crosby did start out rather Barney fifeish, but quickly matured into one of the best navigators in the 8th.
Although the Norden bombsite, a few things. One is that the Germans got old of them quite early in the war from captured and crashed bombers. Also, there is a lot of politics around Norden's bombsight as there were similar and even superior devices in the US inventory. But Norden's connections with the Senate kept them out.
Lots of good CGI out there, no doubt. However, the footage of actual re-created Kate's droppng their torpedos approaching Battleship Row or Zeros straffing Hickam Field in " Tora Yora Tora " is still among the best in motion pictures.
I know that Bill has been wanting an abbreviated intro for a while now, but at this point it feels weird not hearing the whole thing. R I P long intro: we’ll still be thinking it even if Seth doesn’t say it.
re: Curtis Lemay...Recommend his autobiography, Mission with LeMay: My Story Hardcover - January 1, 1965 by Curtis E LeMay (Author), MacKinlay Kantor (Author)
Perhaps the Battle of the Atlantic could be the next special project? I suspect all of us listeners and watchers would love to see Bill talk about that.
In 1937 a German immigrant and naturalized US citizen, Hermann Lang, sold plans of the Norden bombsight to the Abwehr for $1500. He even returned to Germany on "vacation" to help the Germans build one which they then compared to their own Lotfernrohr 7 bombsight (the Germans liked theirs better). So all those security protocols that bombardiers went thorough to protect the Norden were, in hindsight, for nought.
I've always thought that the Army Air Corps thought much more highly of the Norden bombsight than it was actually worth. I imagine that U.S. intelligence never knew about Hermann Lang's accomplishment. I also recall that the Germans recovered some bombsights from crashed B-17s and even captured a few that made emergency landings in occupied territories/Germany proper.
I definitely felt like I was having propaganda thrown at me when they talked about the bomb site and when they scrubbed the mission. We weren’t any more or less moral in our bombing campaign. Our bombs weren’t really any more accurate than German or British bombing. We were definitely killing thousands of civilians. Real world conditions yielded significantly different results from testing.
when I fly commercial I'm very apprehensive always on my toes if I feel the first bump of turbulence... I cannot imagine flying holding a machine gun however high up they were out of an open window. just incredible
By 1943, Ford was building one plane an hour, 24 planes a day. Even at that staggering rate, I was not unheard of to loose 10, 20 or even 24 B-24s in a day. Staggering. Yet, they kept coming unabated. One of the great benefits of having big oceans on both shores. There was almost nothing to stop production.
I haven’t seen masters of the air You spoke about the quality of the CGI that can be limited by the writing of aerial scenes My case in point SBD barely tagging the deck of a Japanese carrier pulling out of an attack in the movie “Midway” Is there any silliness like that in Masters
Hopefully somewhere in these PCs you might touch on the German submarine history. They had goodtimes and then suddenly extraordinary BAD TIMES, which the Germans called Black May. Adm Dönitz was unaware of one British Major that figured the routine of the subs. B-24s were used to kill the subs along with other aircraft and surface craft. Bill might want to do a PC or two of this subject, it's very unique.
Regarding the chronological WWII Submarine battles: that came out in the '50's " The Silent Service "! Granted a) it was black and white,b) in the '50's our specialFX was wanting! But as a kid that turned 10 in'58 it was great! I still look for all the WWII Submarine stories I can find, Ed Beach was/is my favorite author!
My God the Acting of the real people at the end of each episode was so bad it was embarrassing ! I Loved seeing the real people but They couldn’t let them practice a bit before filming???
I think the first two episodes were wonderful the attention to detail we have to be thankful for. I don’t mind. The use of CGI got to be the wave of the future as long as they don’t overdo it and make it look like a Star Wars movie.
Edward Jablonski wrote a two book set called “Air War” that does a great job in a section of telling the story of the 100th Bomb Group. Robert Rosenthal, Crosby, etc are described in a great manner. I suggest anyone read Jablonski’s books. I think he covered “Kenny’s Kids” of the Pacific war. The B-25 commerce raiders with up to 12 .50’s in the nose flying low level missions. Should also be a movie.
The pilots and bombardier should be flight officers and the remainder of the crew sergeants. Explains the flight uniform, check out the naval aviators unis vs the gunners and radiomen.
The 2 biggest problems with WW2 movies 1) Actors are never the proper age. Brad Pitt was 52 in Fury. 2) Actors arent skinny enough. These people have been eating chow hall food for a year minimum. These people are 50 lbs heavier than the actual person was.
Just finished the audiobook Hells Angels by Jay A. Stout (303rd BG), can't wait to see the first episode! Dark is how I'd describe the topic matter, for sure. Those guys took a terrible beating in the early part of the war especially. People just don't realize. 🎗️ Never Forget
They took a massive beating until the end of the war. 8th Air Force lost 60 plus bombers in one day on a lot more occasions than the 2 bad days in 1943. The only difference was instead of 60 out of 300, it was 60 out of 600/700/800.
What sort of bilge pumps were there on a B-17F? Did it change with the different Blocks? Did it get changed when they shifted to the B-17G? Have they accurately portrayed this? We demand answers!
For a little different take on Swiss engineer and inventor Carl Norden and his famous bomb sight, check out Malcolm Gladwell's book, "Bomber Mafia." According to Gladwell, except under absolutely perfect conditions including slow steady speed, precisely known wind, clear sky, and low altitude, a soda straw taped to the bombardier's knee could have done almost as well. Moreover, unknown to the Americans, the Germans were aware of -- and had actually had already seen detailed plans for -- and rejected -- Carl Norden's bomb sight in the '30's. (It didn't work for them, either.) However, the USAAC (later, USAAF) bought the hype -- hook, line and sinker -- and spent $1.5 billion (about half the cost of the Manhattan Project) for lots of Carl Norden's analog computer gadgets and began themselves touting the supposed extreme accuracy of the device. On that basis, they crafted the whole USAAF "precision daylight bombing" strategy. When it didn't work as expected, "The Brass" blamed user error. What did work were the relentless area-bombing 1,000 bomber raids supported by long range fighter escorts. I suppose in retrospect, the Norden bomb sight worked as well as the USN Mark 14 torpedoes (spoiler alert: e.g., "clank" is not the sound you want to hear when trying to torpedo an enemy ship) during the first 2 years of the war -- which the Bureau of Ordinance insisted worked perfectly fine in testing. Nonetheless, let us never forget that war is a "come-as-you-are" with "what-you-got" type event. Alas, being told a bunch of hype that you've been equipped with the best weapon systems in the world won't make it so if it doesn't work -- and work reliably.
The British wanted to get their hands on that sight throughout the run-up to war, and when the US entered and they finally got access to one, they rejected it. Too finicky.
The Norden bomb sight secret was not secret. And, at 29kft or 25kft it could not compensate for upper atmosphere winds. The bombs fluttered like butterflies that fluttered by
If we keep getting two podcasts drops a week, I’m going to go into Unauthorized History podcast withdrawal after the series ends. Seth and Bill, thank you for doing this!
Then we move on to Korea!
Who said they were allowed to end?
It's a real if not inevitable possibility.
Wait.. I thought it was 1 a week
Ohhhhh.. ok
Great review, thanks, unfortunately many of these movies are made for movie-watchers, not historians. Jim Lovel for instance had issues with how Apollo 13 was shot but Ron Howard explained that the average person wouldn't understand the degree of crisis without some artistic license. I met Harry Crosby years ago, he and my dad went back to their days at Univ. of Iowa. I had read Harrys book "Wing and a Prayer" and Joblonskis book "Flying Fortress" that dedicates a full chapter to the 100th. Very much a character, sort of a long haired bearded bohemian writer type. I think he lived everyday in amazement that he survived what so many did not. We met when I was a full adult and I could have been a kid meeting his hero. It dismays me that we make such commotion of celebrities that celebrate their disfunction while true heroes like Harry live in obscurity, but not so much anymore thanks to podcasts like this. He shared a couple " this is sort of between you and me" type stories that I don't recall reading in his book. All I can say is very interesting.
If I may, I would like to offer another perspective on area bombing as doctrinally adopted by the Commonwealth Air Forces versus precision bombing that was purportedly the primary tactic used by the 8th AF. The theory of precision bombing was indeed the ideal that all air forces wished to use at the outset of the war, however, the theory was not a practical or survivable tactic for the 8th or the RAF to use in the European theatre. In my opinion, 8th AF precision bombing is a myth. I hope you will indulge me as I make my argument.
First, the weather was not amenable to precision tactics for a very large proportion of the year. Most missions were completed in very marginal weather where the bomb-aimers had limited or no view of the target. In those cases, a target IP was identified using dead reckoning navigation (or by radar later in the war) and the bombs were dropped on timed runs from the IP to the notional target. Furthermore, even in good weather, the lead navigator and bombardier brought the formation to the target, and the entire group toggled their bombs when the lead dropped - this is not exactly precision bombing by individual aircraft using their Nordens to their best advantage.
Secondly, the interlaced arcs of fire and bomber box defensive tactics of a an 8th AF bomb group meant that the group had to maintain formation right up to the target. This formation was rigidly adhered to by all groups and this technique also necessitated a bomb drop that was initiated on the lead bombers cue. A bomber formation could be very wide, and this disciplined adherence to formation defense meant the bombs fell in a wide swath onto the target - the very definition of carpet bombing.
So, at the end of the day, the USAAF used pretty much the same bombing tactics that the Commonwealth Air Forces used. The RAF operated at night, which meant their results were initially abysmal compared to day bombing. But by 1943 they had the H2S radar set and Pathfinder techniques, so RAF bombing accuracy had improved immensely by the time of the Ruhr and Berlin offensives.
Thanks, gentlemen. PS Love your work - what you guys do is a magnificent public service. Colonel (retired) Jim Irvine, RCAF
Bill, I too flew on the B-17 at the Leesburg air show. After a 20 minute flight (in nice weather) I was drenched in sweat and ready to kiss the ground when I got off. I thought of those crews spending 10 hours in the air in the deafening, freezing aircraft, let alone with someone trying to shoot you down. I was very humbled by the courage of those men who did something day in and day out that I do not think I could do. Thanks to you and Seth for helping to keep history alive.
Again ,thank you guys for all the hard work you put into it.
Thanks Seth and Bill for giving us some extra content.
I've really enjoyed the series and your commentary. My great uncle lost his life in the skies over Germany as a bombardier on a B-17 so this has been very interesting content. We nerded out as a family prior to watching the first episode, reading a letter that one of his surviving crewman wrote my grandmother describing his last moments.
You guys are terrific, thanks for doing this. Imagine sitting in minus 50 degree temps, with open windows in an aluminum tube five miles in the air. You could punch a screwdriver through the skin of the plane, and you know any round that comes through it is going to hit something or someone. No 'escaping and evading' up there. Greatest generation, indeed.
These young guys would sit on extra flak jackets, cast iron stove parts anything that might protect the jewels
Yep, no atheists in foxholes, they say, but there are no foxholes in bombers!
I think the first two episodes have been fantastic! What brave souls these young kids were, what they did was unbelievably brave.
No, I totally agree! I've not seen the new movie, I'm waiting for it to come out. It's great that yall are preluding this new series.
My parents were both veterans of World War II.
My father was in the US Navy, South Pacific. While my mother was a WAC stationed here in Everett Washington.
She was part of a unit that ferried B-17 bombers from Everett down to Southern California for deployment to the Pacific.
She loved her B-17s as much as she loved my father! At least that's what he always told me😅
One of her jobs once they were airborne and out over the ocean, was that she got to fire the 50 Cal machine guns to test them.
They also dropped 100, 250, and 500 lb bags of cement over the ocean to test the Nordin bomb site.
Speaking of bombing, my mom, who rarely, got air sick, got are sick one time! They opened up the bombay doors so she could hurl out the bombay!
There was a little catwalk and they would tether her so she wouldn't go flying out the bombay!
As you can imagine, there were some very lively, fun discussions at the dinner table!
Particularly when they had buddies over who had served overseas.
My dad's stories and those of his buddies were darker because they were actually in the thick of it seeing more action than my dad's 17, 18 old mind, body and spirit could deal with.
They're both gone now. For over 30 years.
Not a day goes by that I don't miss them.
I was raised by two of the finest people from the Greatest Generation that I could possibly ever have hoped for.
I'm so proud of my parents for who they were, who they taught me to be and for their contributions to the war.
Rest in peace mom and dad, you did your jobs and you did them well.🙏🇺🇲⚓️💯💖😪🍻👍
In regard to the accents, my grandparents grew up in Maine and moved to FL in the 1950s. They still spoke with a distinctive Maine accent until the day they died.
My late friend Nick Dimare, originally from Woburn Massachusetts, although he lived for years in Florida and Tennessee never lost his eastern Massachusetts accent. I still have a bit of a Yankee tone myself even though I have lived in Tennessee for over 30 years.
Thanks for dipping your warm blooded pacific toes into the frigid waters of the Atlantic guys. Never change, but I'm glad you decided to cover this series. My Uncle Bill was a B-17 Tail Gunner in the 15th Airforce, 301st bomb group. He had two confirmed kills and was awarded the Air Medal 4 times in the course of his 51 missions. So I'm thrilled. I wish he could see this series. Although he'd be torqued about the 8th getting all the attention!
Always enjoy these. Keep up the great work guys.
Time to start advocating for a Navy "Band of Brothers"!
*Das Boot* !
Maybe dare I say even Bande der Brüder or 兄弟のバンド
It seems like you could have two extremes of scope by either setting it on a submarine or an aircraft carrier.
I saved a bunch of podcasts to listen to when I was at work. Then you guys started doing this. Had to wait to get Apple TV. Didn’t want spoilers. So glad to be back
To amplify cmdr. Toti voice: I'm waiting too for a good series about US Navy in WWII like Band of Brothers or The Pacific. Many great stories of many great people. Just imagine: USS Wahoo or USS Barb, USS Enterprise and its battles, night action at Guadalcanal, patrol boats at Solomons and New Guinea, Phillipine Sea, Leyte Gulf, terror of kamikaze attacks, convoys on Atlantic and U-boat threat. Potential for a great show bringing history to life is enormous.
Edit: Even shipyard and factory battle for producing Liberty ships would be interesting.
Here here.
It would be great to see a focus on the numerous surface action gun battles, carriers war, PT boats, and submarines.
Include Guadalcanal battles, Leyte Gulf, Barb would be incredible.
Tactical air units would be tough to choose because of all the incredible units in Theatre.
Black sheep come to mind. Then there are there’s Bong and the Flying Circus, etc.
Let’s keep hoping for a series.
It was called “Victory at Sea”.
For years I've thought of Midway as the most interesting Pacific naval battle, but just recently I've switched. Taffy 3, at Leyte. If you tried to write that story as fiction, you'd be laughed out of town.
Start the series with the invasion of Guadalcanal, which is where America truly learned how to fight Japan. Long term, Japan was outclassed and doomed, but in second half of 1942, Japan had distinct advantages that the US had to overcome at great cost.
@@markdavis1116 Great series. I'd watch everything I could when it was airing. Couldn't get enough.
Love our modern age with access to discussions and conversations we use to not have.
The comparison with BOB and Pacific is inevitable and perhaps relevant. I was astounded by BOB and also by Pacific in respect of learning a what those men did and lived through. "Masters" achieved the same with me. I have read military history for 40 years. Until I saw this I did not come close to understanding the brutality and ferocity of the air battles. In this respect all three series are benchmarks as historical education for those of us who enjoy the fruits of their achievements. Never forget!
I just watched the first episode and enjoyed it. Bill, I liked the crosswind landing in Narsarsuaq Greenland as well. I have to confess, I have about 450 hours of flight time in the B17 (Liberty Belle, Movie Memphis Belle and Madras Maiden)and the technique of bringing up the upwind outboard engine in a heavy crosswind is 100% correct, I’ve done it many times. By the way, I’ve landed at Narsarsuaq (not in a B17 lol) twice in my career and it looks just like that. Looking forward to more. Yes a few things were not right, but they were out weighed but the many things that were correct.👍🏻
The Movie Belle was the first B-17 I saw in person, and got to meet Robert Morgan at the time. I got see Liberty Belle a couple times. Did you get to fly with Mac?
@@johnbeauvais3159 Hello, no I never flew with Mac. We were with different groups. I flew with the Liberty Foundation and Mac was Collings.
Love your series. Always brings new perspectives and information that is not common knowledge to the average public. Having been in a B17 or two. I can see why they didn't use real B17s especially since we forget that you have to fly these old birds over to the UK. It was a perilous journey then and it is even more so know especially with the recent B17 crashes.
I really appreciate your comments from the veterans you got to talk to. I volunteered at a WW2 museum in the artifacts department and reading the battlefield reports and seeing the identification cards and unifroms. I wish I had met a few of these vets as you have.
I hope the series shows truth and not misconceptions or myths. I would really like to see P47s as the escorting fighters in 1943 as P51s weren't there in force until early 1944. Unfortunately a lot of 8th Air Force missions were unescorted because of a belief that our planes can defend themselves and fly higher and faster than anything in the air. I look forward to your future reviews and regular series.
I really enjoyed the first two episodes and believe me when I tell you. I was sitting on the edge of my seat on both episodes talking to the tv. It taking 12 years or so before they finally made Masters Of the Air and it was worth every bit of the wait.
This! Is my favorite channel for WW2 info! You guys are the greatest! Thank you!
As President of the B-17 Rivet Counters Association, I certify the work done on this series as “close enough for government work.“ and I hardly endorse the work you gentlemen have done bringing the work of Rivet counters to the national attention. Keep up the good work, gentlemen!
I liked the detail about the turret gunner freezing his butt off. I read one detail about a pilot who had a hole in the plane that blasted cold air on his foot for hours. He kept his foot, but it took months to recover.
Wow! Thank you for putting the effort and uploading the videos! Big fan from Sweden.
Great review of such a long anticipated debut. I too was a bit skeptical about the way that Harry Crosby was portrayed. Such incompetence as it is portrayed would have been weeded out during training long before the squadron he was in deployed. I can imagine that he may have suffered from air sickness from time to time, as even veteran sailors become seasick during extreme seas, but can't imagine that he would have been debilitated to such an extent as to make him into a dunce. I also appreciated Tommy's point that the use of the oxygen masks was accurately portrayed. It was done so in the film "12 O'clock High" but not so much in the later series of the same name as many scenes shown at high altitudes portrayed the actors not wearing the masks.
Seth, Bill and company are my hero’s for their informative videos. PLEASE keep doing what you’re doing. Seth, what no comment about the 918th?
Welcome Tommy and Seth and Bill hope you get the same enjoyment and education out of the episodes as your listeners/viewers.
Thanks again for giving your expertise on the Masters of the Air Series. Appreciate some insights the three of you shared for your episode. During your discussion, it was mentioned the first 8th Air Force first raids began in 1942. Of interest, Major Paul Tibbets lead as Command Pilot of the lead B-17 in the first B-17 raid over German occupied France. Paul Tibbets was also mentioned as having "Command Presence" similar to what was mentioned for Major Gale Cleven. There were probably many such men with the Command Presence in the 8th Air Force. Looking forward to your future reviews.
Great episode! Spot on with the break down. I enjoyed the first episode and look forward to the rest thus far.
Thank you. Welcome Mr. Lofton.
Captain Toti, your daughter would probably have a hard time understanding my West Texas drawl. Not sure when I will get a chance to see this, Apple is not something I have. But I will watch the reviews because I really enjoy these podcasts. Looking forward to tomorrows Torpedo Tuesday.
Le May was a two-star at the end of WWII. He became a four-star when he became head of SAC in the 1950s.
Well...he took over SAC in 1948, but you are correct that he got his 4th star in the 1950s...1951 to be precise.
Welcome Tommy to the best podcast on UA-cam. Wonderfully sardonic. Just loved MOA. I realize it is based on a book, however I wish they would have started earlier (mobilization and training).
When it comes to historical accuracy in historical films where wide shots of locations that no longer exist or centered around weapons platforms and systems that no longer exist or are too valuable as artifacts to risk on a movie set, CGI is necessary in order to be authentic in honoring those that are being depicted in film.
Films that integrate CGI, where needed, analog effects, and historical builds are a great balance that would be nice to see more of.
Right off the bat, the concern I suspect most viewers have is that they want the writers, producers and directors to avoid falling back on hollywood cliche tropes during this series. There is a penchant among producers, directors, writers and investors to want to turn anything remotely related to historical events into something akin to Rambo on steroids, or Star Wars, certainly in the last few decades.
Red Tails comes to mind. I know quite a few people who absolutely cringed at the bomber mission scenes where every luftwaffe fighter apparently had deathstar turbolasers, ripping whole wings off of massive B-17s just by pointing at them, as if the bombers were made of xplodium. Actual combat gun camera footage has shown that these bombers were very hard to knock out of the sky without some effort and certainly without considerable risk to the fighter pilots attacking them.
Even Memphis Belle, which I rather enjoyed, played on the hollywood cliches, with that bomber crew acting as if this was their first few missions together. Accounts of the time typically showed these young men were actually quite reserved when on mission, and hyper focused on their duties, and not so much on schoolboy pranks and ribbing.
If Masters of the Air really wants to win people over, it doesnt need to compete with BoB or Pacific, it just needs to be well written, well acted, and well portrayed with utmost respect for those involved in the air war over Europe.
I remain cautiously optimistic.
Excellent review and commentary as always.
Regarding Tommy's comment about there being too much horizontal stabilizer movement, the B-17's horizontals do actually move quite a bit, especially while on the ground. While the CGI might be exaggerating it a bit, it's not too much.
I will always prefer real aircraft over CGI but fully understand the limitations of using old aircraft for movies today. When I first heard of this project many years ago I had really hoped they would have been able the access the many hours of air to air footage that hit the cutting room floor from 1990's Memphis Belle. The 2001 Czech film, Dark Blue World, recycled a lot of footage from 1969's Battle of Britain. They re-processed it, added nuances like ejecting shells and improved the air combat scenes. They even changed aircraft markings and increased the number of aircraft. It was phenomenal computer work done by, per Hollywood standards, a low budget film. There's a great description of that work in the DVD's extras.
Great job as always. Thanks.
You guys are awesome. Love your work. Maybe not do the European theater but perhaps the battle of the Atlantic. Think Bill would have a lot to say about the submarine warfare that happened. Either way look forward to more content as I’m currently deployed in Saudi you give me something to watch.
12:35 Great show so far guys, and it's my first. I'd have to agree on the inevitable yet useless comparisons to the previous two shows.
However, my only observation is that is BoB and TP we got character depth. In MoA the characters are unidimensional, flat and uninteresting.
Thank you for your service gentlemen.
If you know about the 90s movie Memphis Belle, a movie about the B-17 crew mission over Germany, the first episode of the miniseries is kind of similar to the movie, the target of the bombing mission is Bremen, Germany, also in the rendezvousing scene after taking off main character's B-17 almost hit another B-17 deep inside the clouds from below, just like that scene from Memphis Belle.
2:02 Right. You have TONS of topics to cover in Pacific: Peleliu, B-29s, Leyte (many, many parts inc naval battles), Kamikazes, Luzon, Iwo, Okinawa, subs late in war, China, southern Philippines and NEI (what Aussies are doing and why they are left on flank), planned invasions of Kyushu and Tokyo plain. Cant wait.
You guys are AWESOME!!! 👍
I thought it more important to watch this assessment of the series before even watching the first episode. I am certainly not judgmental regarding such shows, it is only for the opinion of the gentleman here regarding accuracy that will let me look more intensely at the details. Never a disappointment from this channel.
Thank you Gentlemen. I only recently started getting my Pacific war history straight. I am embarassed it took me so long to round off the complete history. This content is filling in the blanks very well niche by niche.
Thank you. This really helps and now I have to go back and rewatch.
An excellent video as always. well presented and informative.
"Masters of the Air" - Very impressive! Recreating B-17F's on the ground and in the air formations is amazing. The last flyable F model was restored after "Memphis Belle" movie. I attended its arrival at Boeing Field when it "came home.” Series places, units, personnel, uniforms, equipment, procedures and risks and environments are very accurate.
The main benefit of this series is that it is paying homage to the wonderful American 8th Airforce who flew daylight missions from Britain in WWII. The enormous loss rate is testimony to their great courage and commitment to the Allied cause. The loss rate is clear evidence of the risk they took. The greatest generation.
Thanks gentlemen you're appreciated.
My father was an airplane mechanic in the 15th USAAF. He said the Norden Bombsight was so secret none of the mechanics new everything about it, so it took multiple mechanics to repair it.
Hope the series is good. Honestly if it doesnt get these guys approval i may hold off til later.
I think the comparison to Band Of Brothers is really an apples and oranges comparison. BOB was done something like 23 years ago. Many of the participants were still alive. And were made an integral part of the narrative. I think that created a significant sense of realism and added a real feeling of humanity to the story.
I appreciate you gentlemen filling in some of the stories of the men the characters are based on. My first impression was we were getting a fair bit of Hollywood license and Dick Best levels of overacting. With that in mind, it would be great if you'd be willing to share freely when you see stuff that is actual bologna.
Edit: Posted my original comment before you did indeed point out the bologna, so thank you. As far as I'm concerned, if you guys like it, I'll be watching.
You guys rock...great podcast great topic...thank you men
My father worked on norden as subsyten with Bendix Aero substems
Great overview folks, thank you. I am quite pleased with the first two parts. However, they should have added coffee grounds to Col. Huglin's bloody emesis. I won't be able to watch the rest of the series because of this lack of authenticity (sarcasm meter on high). The final mission for Spielberg/Hanks is to focus on the Navy (including at least 2 episodes on subs) in the Pacific.
Col Le May became a one star when he took over the Manhattan project. He was never a 4 star during WWII. After WWII he was in charge the Berlin Airlift and then Strategic Command. He became a full General in 1951.
I gotta agree with the fellas about flying those old warbirds. They were kinda made to die in fire... on these WW2 bases, there were hundreds of engines, big spools of cable, avionic instruments, wing panels, etc and so on. Rather than extreme care, swapping something out was a viable solution, which no longer exists. Longevity of the aircraft, especially engines, was balanced with cost and speed of production. Those old birds are prickly and dangerous....
this channel is thoroughly amazing
Promotions in WWII seemed really fast. For example: Curits LeMay. In 1938 the was considered probably the best navigator in the Army Air Corps having led long range (exercise) missions out to sea in the Atlantic to intercept shipping. He was a 1st Lt. at the time. He was a CPT by 1941. Then ranks break into two categories. There was the real rank (he might have made LTC by the end of the war, his "permanent rank" except it wasn't) and his AUS rank (Army of the United States). This was a "temporary" ranks as the Air Force expanded from about 27,,000 men in 1939 to about 4 million by 1945. (The other branches were similar.) I don't know if it was truly a "brevet" rank. Brevet would mean you wore the rank and gain the responsibility and authority associated with that rank but not the pay. If you stayed in after the war you were guaranteed your permanent rank and many were reduced in rank after the war; some to a rank in between their AUS (wartime) rank and actual permanent rank, many to their permanent rank. A few (and LeMay was one of the few) retained their wartime rank permanently in his case MGen.
Let not forgot BOB had the same amount of inaccuracies if not more! At the end of the day its telling history but it has to be good TV. Good podcast enjoyed listening
I became very interested in the B17 and it's service as a kid. That led me to the history of American daylight bombing in Europe and the high cost. Looking forward to watching this series. I remember the BW movie 12 O'Clock High.... I am a bit old.
I've heard it explained that the difference between RAF night bombing and 8th AF daylight bombing as: The RAF did area bombing of precise targets at night and the 8th AF did precision bombing on area targets during the day.
When in the US Navy the only movie we were shown in leadership class was 12 O’Clock high.
As a kid I watched every episode of the TV show version .
I have seen Memphis Belle the original documentary and the Hollywood movie .
So my standard are very high!
Gregory Peck in "12 O'clock High" was an amazing study of the devastating toll command responsibility takes on even the most experienced and capable senior officers in wartime.
I want to know how they’re going to tie in the 99th/332nd fighter group into this. As far as I know they didn’t interact with each other as the Tuskegee were with the 15th Air Force and the 100th was with the 8th.
I too wonder at this. We shall see. Good Point.
I really enjoyed the part. You were talking about the Norton bomb site. It would be very neat if you guys could talk about the oath that the bombardiers had to take to protect the bombsight with their lives.
British night bombing was not due to a lack of good bomb sights. It was due to heavy losses on daylight missions. The British put a great deal of effort into accurate night bombing. Early in the war they found how badly they were missing targets. Later each bomber took a photo as it dropped its bombs to check accuracy. They also developed radar and pathfinder squadrons. And post raid recon flights and bomb damage assessments. And other complex navigation and targeting systems. The Germans were able to capture many Norden bomb sites from crashed bombers. Including nearly intact B-17s they could fly. In daylight bombing most of the aiming and navigation was done by the lead bombers as they flew in formation. There has been some research that shows that P-47 Thunderbolts were not being used effectively to escort bombers. Resulting in heavier bomber losses. Including the Swheinfurt missions.
Greg's Airplanes and Cars goes into detail on the P47 fiasco. It's quite informative.
I can not understand how people can compare a soldier on the ground to one in the air, l have seen band of brothers and the Pacific, this series masters of the air is a completely different bag.l am looking forward to seeing this series.
Iirc from reading on a wing and a prayer many years ago, Crosby did start out rather Barney fifeish, but quickly matured into one of the best navigators in the 8th.
Although the Norden bombsite, a few things. One is that the Germans got old of them quite early in the war from captured and crashed bombers. Also, there is a lot of politics around Norden's bombsight as there were similar and even superior devices in the US inventory. But Norden's connections with the Senate kept them out.
Mondays are now as great as Tuesdays!!!
Lots of good CGI out there, no doubt. However, the footage of actual re-created Kate's droppng their torpedos approaching Battleship Row or Zeros straffing Hickam Field in " Tora Yora Tora " is still among the best in motion pictures.
I know that Bill has been wanting an abbreviated intro for a while now, but at this point it feels weird not hearing the whole thing. R I P long intro: we’ll still be thinking it even if Seth doesn’t say it.
re: Curtis Lemay...Recommend his autobiography,
Mission with LeMay: My Story Hardcover - January 1, 1965
by Curtis E LeMay (Author), MacKinlay Kantor (Author)
Perhaps the Battle of the Atlantic could be the next special project? I suspect all of us listeners and watchers would love to see Bill talk about that.
Love this series so far
In 1937 a German immigrant and naturalized US citizen, Hermann Lang, sold plans of the Norden bombsight to the Abwehr for $1500. He even returned to Germany on "vacation" to help the Germans build one which they then compared to their own Lotfernrohr 7 bombsight (the Germans liked theirs better). So all those security protocols that bombardiers went thorough to protect the Norden were, in hindsight, for nought.
I've always thought that the Army Air Corps thought much more highly of the Norden bombsight than it was actually worth. I imagine that U.S. intelligence never knew about Hermann Lang's accomplishment. I also recall that the Germans recovered some bombsights from crashed B-17s and even captured a few that made emergency landings in occupied territories/Germany proper.
I definitely felt like I was having propaganda thrown at me when they talked about the bomb site and when they scrubbed the mission. We weren’t any more or less moral in our bombing campaign. Our bombs weren’t really any more accurate than German or British bombing. We were definitely killing thousands of civilians. Real world conditions yielded significantly different results from testing.
The Norden bombsite info should be updated as you guys do this series.
when I fly commercial I'm very apprehensive always on my toes if I feel the first bump of turbulence... I cannot imagine flying holding a machine gun however high up they were out of an open window. just incredible
By 1943, Ford was building one plane an hour, 24 planes a day. Even at that staggering rate, I was not unheard of to loose 10, 20 or even 24 B-24s in a day. Staggering. Yet, they kept coming unabated. One of the great benefits of having big oceans on both shores. There was almost nothing to stop production.
I haven’t seen masters of the air
You spoke about the quality of the CGI
that can be limited by the writing of aerial scenes
My case in point
SBD barely tagging the deck of a Japanese carrier pulling out of an attack in the movie “Midway”
Is there any silliness like that in Masters
Hopefully somewhere in these PCs you might touch on the German submarine history. They had goodtimes and then suddenly extraordinary BAD TIMES, which the Germans called Black May. Adm Dönitz was unaware of one British Major that figured the routine of the subs. B-24s were used to kill the subs along with other aircraft and surface craft. Bill might want to do a PC or two of this subject, it's very unique.
Regarding the chronological WWII Submarine battles: that came out in the '50's " The Silent Service "! Granted a) it was black and white,b) in the '50's our specialFX was wanting! But as a kid that turned 10 in'58 it was great!
I still look for all the WWII Submarine stories I can find, Ed Beach was/is my favorite author!
My God the Acting of the real people at the end of each episode was so bad it was embarrassing !
I Loved seeing the real people but
They couldn’t let them practice a bit before filming???
Curtis Lemay was a Major General in the Pacific.
Balao-class-bilge-pump-detail: I don't think they had any holding patterns out over the north Atlantic.
I think the first two episodes were wonderful the attention to detail we have to be thankful for. I don’t mind. The use of CGI got to be the wave of the future as long as they don’t overdo it and make it look like a Star Wars movie.
Edward Jablonski wrote a two book set called “Air War” that does a great job in a section of telling the story of the 100th Bomb Group. Robert Rosenthal, Crosby, etc are described in a great manner. I suggest anyone read Jablonski’s books. I think he covered “Kenny’s Kids” of the Pacific war. The B-25 commerce raiders with up to 12 .50’s in the nose flying low level missions. Should also be a movie.
I found the show very enlightening. I didn’t realize they flew in dress uniforms. Anyway, I’m looking forward to the rest of the series!
The pilots and bombardier should be flight officers and the remainder of the crew sergeants. Explains the flight uniform, check out the naval aviators unis vs the gunners and radiomen.
The 2 biggest problems with WW2 movies 1) Actors are never the proper age. Brad Pitt was 52 in Fury. 2) Actors arent skinny enough. These people have been eating chow hall food for a year minimum. These people are 50 lbs heavier than the actual person was.
Just finished the audiobook Hells Angels by Jay A. Stout (303rd BG), can't wait to see the first episode! Dark is how I'd describe the topic matter, for sure. Those guys took a terrible beating in the early part of the war especially. People just don't realize. 🎗️ Never Forget
They took a massive beating until the end of the war. 8th Air Force lost 60 plus bombers in one day on a lot more occasions than the 2 bad days in 1943. The only difference was instead of 60 out of 300, it was 60 out of 600/700/800.
What might make a good mini series for the Navy in WWII? PT Boats maybe? Or Saebees, or Frogmen.
“Whoops episode two!” Yeah no notes!😂
Suggestion:
It would be interesting for the hosts to review the “Victory at sea” series now that many of the real historical events are known.
What sort of bilge pumps were there on a B-17F? Did it change with the different Blocks? Did it get changed when they shifted to the B-17G? Have they accurately portrayed this?
We demand answers!
Hope there is a physical media release
Thanks Guys. AER VIS
Thank you
For a little different take on Swiss engineer and inventor Carl Norden and his famous bomb sight, check out Malcolm Gladwell's book, "Bomber Mafia." According to Gladwell, except under absolutely perfect conditions including slow steady speed, precisely known wind, clear sky, and low altitude, a soda straw taped to the bombardier's knee could have done almost as well. Moreover, unknown to the Americans, the Germans were aware of -- and had actually had already seen detailed plans for -- and rejected -- Carl Norden's bomb sight in the '30's. (It didn't work for them, either.) However, the USAAC (later, USAAF) bought the hype -- hook, line and sinker -- and spent $1.5 billion (about half the cost of the Manhattan Project) for lots of Carl Norden's analog computer gadgets and began themselves touting the supposed extreme accuracy of the device. On that basis, they crafted the whole USAAF "precision daylight bombing" strategy. When it didn't work as expected, "The Brass" blamed user error. What did work were the relentless area-bombing 1,000 bomber raids supported by long range fighter escorts. I suppose in retrospect, the Norden bomb sight worked as well as the USN Mark 14 torpedoes (spoiler alert: e.g., "clank" is not the sound you want to hear when trying to torpedo an enemy ship) during the first 2 years of the war -- which the Bureau of Ordinance insisted worked perfectly fine in testing. Nonetheless, let us never forget that war is a "come-as-you-are" with "what-you-got" type event. Alas, being told a bunch of hype that you've been equipped with the best weapon systems in the world won't make it so if it doesn't work -- and work reliably.
The British wanted to get their hands on that sight throughout the run-up to war, and when the US entered and they finally got access to one, they rejected it. Too finicky.
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The Norden bomb sight secret was not secret. And, at 29kft or 25kft it could not compensate for upper atmosphere winds. The bombs fluttered like butterflies that fluttered by
I read Crosby's book and I recall that he seemed to be a serious guy. He was serious about his job as a navigator.