If a person is ok with the status-quo, then we are not looking for THAT person. We are looking for those who are tired of their GM running them around in a rail-car...or telling you how your character feels and thinks, we want people that desire fellow players that are ACTIVE, not passive. we want players that don't waste time in the game. People that play like adults, not 13 yr olds. WE... in the 4D Roleplay group are looking for a good session with as much in-character Roleplay as possible. We want people with like-minded goals. If a person has no desire for these same goals, they have thousands of games they can play in. This style is not for everybody as their goals in RPG are different than ours. We are looking for that 1-3% out there that wants the same as us. If a person wants to come play with us, we are very welcoming, but if you still want to talk out-of-character or start trying to create and out-of-game conversation on marbles and toothpicks and the origins of furbies, and you have no desire to follow the rules our group has, then you can go find someone else to play with. Don't care if your feelings are hurt, if you can't abide by manners (as we have all sacrificed our limited time on this planet, to play this game) then the person in question is wasting our time. We are ok if you talk furbies/toothpicks and marbles after the session and we will crack some jokes with you, as there is a time and place for it. If people are all bent out of shape because we desire these thing and are attempting to make a better game experience for ourselves, then that's a "them" problem. Watch your NBA Basketball game...and imagine if the team is talking/debating about starwars characters, toothpicks, marbles, furbies... instead of playing basketball... turning a 2.5hrs/average game into a 4-5 hour slog... 4D Roleplayers are the Players on those basketball teams saying... "Stop talking about nonsense! We want to play the game!"
While you can design with actor/director stances and internal/external sources of information in mind, you can't for immersion as there's nothing inherent in any play process that makes it so. What I've found however is that familiarity is the most common trait among those who found a system immersive, which may be why they consider the processes of play to also be the _purpose_ of play rather than just a means to an end.
That’s very true and quite interesting. Fundamentally there’s a very big difference between enjoying a particular process of play, and deciding that that process will then produce a certain result. Recognizing that difference can be difficult sometimes especially when you are too close to it. The alchemy of play is quite complex.
Ji got me thinking and you got me thinking harder this morning: • it’s worthy to intend something different than a “science of intentions.” It’s possible to be a Kool-aid salesman. But then one must create a theory of merit, and sell people on why cleaving to that theory can have pragmatic benefit even if the evangelized may not care to foreswear all beverages besides koolaid
Well said. This is how an adult conducts public discourse about our hobby. For my part, I will never engage them or give them one more minute of attention.
I think this entire discussion of 4D roleplay and wanting the ideal immersive game experience has been talked about a few times in the last 50 years. None of this is new. Its just gotten a finny new label and being discussed as something revolutionary.
Yet who is doing it successfuly today? Look, if you haven't tried, maybe it's time to get into it to see for yourself. Watch some of the games. Immersion is a skill. One that most people don't have, because of the current culture of how games are played. It is harder to play an immersive style and thus fewer people do it or know how. But it can be so much more rewarding than the low-effort, unstructured games that are the norm today. The RPG crusade is teaching you how to do it, making it a real option, or even an opportunity. And ivanmike's games look to be a serious style that could be copied too. You gotta recognize quality instead of just saying its not new. In fact "The news isn't new".
As a retired RPG game designer/writer, I've never felt the need to tell someone how to play the games I've created, other than good GMing techniques at a high level.
Maybe that's the problem, that sales are way more important that immersion at the table. The result is very often a so-so boardgame passing as an rpg, unfortunately. I think game designers could and should show the way
(Hearing the tire iron analogy) For me, there always must be limitations depending on whose sitting at the table. Having Ivan say, "I pick up this tire iron." is fine, when it may be appropriate to the setting. But what happens when it's not? Having a fellow player suddenly 'find' a tire iron in the middle of a jungle, for example, would be highly disruptive to what passes for immersion for me. Now I'm thinking about several different people I have played with for years, has me wondering, "To find that 4D level of play, would I have to ask them to leave the table? Would that be fair to them? To me? Anyway, thank you Ivan, you've refined a lot of what I have been listening to the past few weeks. Video inbound soon.
I’m pretty sure you did, but I would not recommend going through five hours looking for if you or he said it! I’m pretty sure it was you but I went by voice. I decided not to make this public in terms of the video being public on UA-cam yet I figured I would let you guys decide.
Thank you for your additional comments Ivan. Very reasonable and I appreciate the discourse. All the best to you sir.
If a person is ok with the status-quo, then we are not looking for THAT person.
We are looking for those who are tired of their GM running them around in a rail-car...or telling you how your character feels and thinks, we want people that desire fellow players that are ACTIVE, not passive. we want players that don't waste time in the game. People that play like adults, not 13 yr olds.
WE... in the 4D Roleplay group are looking for a good session with as much in-character Roleplay as possible. We want people with like-minded goals. If a person has no desire for these same goals, they have thousands of games they can play in. This style is not for everybody as their goals in RPG are different than ours. We are looking for that 1-3% out there that wants the same as us.
If a person wants to come play with us, we are very welcoming, but if you still want to talk out-of-character or start trying to create and out-of-game conversation on marbles and toothpicks and the origins of furbies, and you have no desire to follow the rules our group has, then you can go find someone else to play with. Don't care if your feelings are hurt, if you can't abide by manners (as we have all sacrificed our limited time on this planet, to play this game) then the person in question is wasting our time. We are ok if you talk furbies/toothpicks and marbles after the session and we will crack some jokes with you, as there is a time and place for it.
If people are all bent out of shape because we desire these thing and are attempting to make a better game experience for ourselves, then that's a "them" problem.
Watch your NBA Basketball game...and imagine if the team is talking/debating about starwars characters, toothpicks, marbles, furbies... instead of playing basketball... turning a 2.5hrs/average game into a 4-5 hour slog... 4D Roleplayers are the Players on those basketball teams saying... "Stop talking about nonsense! We want to play the game!"
While you can design with actor/director stances and internal/external sources of information in mind, you can't for immersion as there's nothing inherent in any play process that makes it so. What I've found however is that familiarity is the most common trait among those who found a system immersive, which may be why they consider the processes of play to also be the _purpose_ of play rather than just a means to an end.
That’s very true and quite interesting. Fundamentally there’s a very big difference between enjoying a particular process of play, and deciding that that process will then produce a certain result. Recognizing that difference can be difficult sometimes especially when you are too close to it. The alchemy of play is quite complex.
Guess what? In 1974 -75 we never worried about any of this.
Ji got me thinking and you got me thinking harder this morning:
• it’s worthy to intend something different than a “science of intentions.” It’s possible to be a Kool-aid salesman. But then one must create a theory of merit, and sell people on why cleaving to that theory can have pragmatic benefit even if the evangelized may not care to foreswear all beverages besides koolaid
Good video. Let's talk!
Well said. This is how an adult conducts public discourse about our hobby. For my part, I will never engage them or give them one more minute of attention.
I can't tell if this is intended to be as hilarious as it sounds.
I think this entire discussion of 4D roleplay and wanting the ideal immersive game experience has been talked about a few times in the last 50 years. None of this is new. Its just gotten a finny new label and being discussed as something revolutionary.
Yet who is doing it successfuly today? Look, if you haven't tried, maybe it's time to get into it to see for yourself. Watch some of the games. Immersion is a skill. One that most people don't have, because of the current culture of how games are played.
It is harder to play an immersive style and thus fewer people do it or know how. But it can be so much more rewarding than the low-effort, unstructured games that are the norm today.
The RPG crusade is teaching you how to do it, making it a real option, or even an opportunity. And ivanmike's games look to be a serious style that could be copied too.
You gotta recognize quality instead of just saying its not new. In fact "The news isn't new".
As a retired RPG game designer/writer, I've never felt the need to tell someone how to play the games I've created, other than good GMing techniques at a high level.
Maybe that's the problem, that sales are way more important that immersion at the table. The result is very often a so-so boardgame passing as an rpg, unfortunately. I think game designers could and should show the way
(Hearing the tire iron analogy) For me, there always must be limitations depending on whose sitting at the table. Having Ivan say, "I pick up this tire iron." is fine, when it may be appropriate to the setting. But what happens when it's not? Having a fellow player suddenly 'find' a tire iron in the middle of a jungle, for example, would be highly disruptive to what passes for immersion for me. Now I'm thinking about several different people I have played with for years, has me wondering, "To find that 4D level of play, would I have to ask them to leave the table? Would that be fair to them? To me? Anyway, thank you Ivan, you've refined a lot of what I have been listening to the past few weeks. Video inbound soon.
Do I say the "no one would be able to play with me" thing or did Rick? That's a Rick-ism imo. Maybe I said it.
I will VR this someday Mr. Mike!
I’m pretty sure you did, but I would not recommend going through five hours looking for if you or he said it! I’m pretty sure it was you but I went by voice. I decided not to make this public in terms of the video being public on UA-cam yet I figured I would let you guys decide.
@@ivanmike1968 No, Rick said it twice though. Also, I don't care if you make it public or not. I wouldn't stop anyone from saying anything.