Thanks for bringing attention to this subject. This happened to me on a grad night to Disneyland. I had the special needs students on my coach (10 bus move). Upon dropping off the students at Disney, we (drivers) piled into one bus for the hotel. It was a lousy hotel, uncomfortable and noisey. Could not get to sleep. At 2am, had to reload the students and start back to Fresno. I could not stay awake after the first hour or so on the road. I had to stop several times to get out of the driver's seat and walk around the coach a couple of times and then continue. About 3/4 of the way home I couldn't do it any longer. I pulled into a rest area, called my dispatch to inform them I was going to be a couple hours late getting the students back. I crawled into the luggage bay and slept for about 2 hours (beleive it or not, I carry an air matress with me). After my "power nap" I was able to finish the drive. The parents were upset to say the least, even though dispatch had notified the school I would be late in returning. After all was said and done, the parents apologized and thanked me for keeping their kids safe. About a week later, I received a box of letters from my student passengers, all thanking me for keeping them safe, with comments on what a great time they had. Gotta love them special needs kids.
Sometimes doing the right thing is VERY difficult. You put their safety above hurt feelings and having angry parents scolding you and your company. Good for you.
Damn, thank you for that story. The world needs more voices like yours to show that doing the right thing inspite of the short term consequences pays off
James, I am glad you made this video. I left the charter bus industry in 2018 because of a stage trip that went bad due to a reservation screw up at the rest hotels. This was a six bus convoy we were meeting on the relay. The lead driver of that group decided to bypass our hotel to drive another hour down the interstate and do the swap in a parking lot. Nobody got any rest, particularly me because I had driven the crew van to the hotel! When I complained, the two lead drivers said, 'That's bus driving' and laughed it off. The owners of the company didn't think much of it either. But continued the process. I loved driving motorcoaches, they are fun to drive and better than 18 wheelers which I drove before. That night my life was endangered and the lives of 56 school kids as well. All due to 'that's bus driving. I quit. Keep up the good work, I love your channel.
I used to work for a company like that. Because of their cavalier attitude, one of our drivers slid off the interstate during a blizzard and endangered the lives of 56 students. The company lost its contract with the university and was sued for millions.
I once got into an argument with a former supervisor who believed that waiting for passengers who are off the bus dining counts as "off duty, not driving" I said, "No, the only way you can be off duty not driving is to relinquish custody of the bus to another driver, back at the yard or have the bus locked overnight at a hotel during a charter. If you are waiting for passenger to come back from lunch, you are subject to be recalled to driving at any moment, so are still on duty"
I just saw a report about a bus crash in Italy, it was on a bus being driven through the night, many lives lost. I was driving for greyhound , in the '90's , mostly nights, and right around 4-5 a.m , have those issues. There where many times , on my way to Omaha, I would seem to miss that 60 miles between there and Lincoln. I am glad that I was able to get out of the business. And thanks for the video.!
We have a sleep bunk in our coaches, and longer trips we drive with 2 drivers on board. We change every 4 hours or so, or even sooner when one got's tired. In that way we can do a trip of max 21 Hours. Don't you do that in the USA? And indeed, sharing rooms is a big no!
My first years at the Hound were challenging to say the least. When you worked the extra board you were on call 24/7 so you never knew when an assignment would come up. You could be down on the board all day and suddenly be called at 9:30pm for a two hour report on an all night run. This happened many times and proper rest and being "fresh" was not reality. I had many tricks to push back the sleep monster but anyone who lived this knows how powerful he is. Driver fatigue is a serious industry problem.
Great video James. In my 15 years of driving, I’ve had my experiences with overnight trips from Phoenix to Los Angeles, CA. Never liked them, and I’m extremely happy to work for a company who as well have discontinued overnight trips. Keep up the great work!
I knew a guy at the railroad I retired from who at one time was a bus driver for Greyhound. He talked about one-time, decades ago, where he was so overworked and fatigued driving an intercity bus that he had to tell his passengers, "Sorry, I'm so tired from the company (Greyhound) not allowing me to get a decent rest that I have to pull into this rest stop to get some sleep." Which he proceeded to do. Excellent story on vehicular driving and lack of sleep. Thanks for sharing!
Not sure where your guy was dispatched out of. But being out of the Chicago terminal for Greyhound. They gave us over 12 hours of off time on most runs. Doing over 2500 -3000 + miles per week was pretty common for me. And if I needed a break, I would pull over and....check the fan belts in the back of the bus. Or even give my passengers a smoke break.
Great video. A lot of good points. Yes, NO SHARING A ROOM with another driver(s). Some customers really need to see this video to better understanding of what the needs are for motor coach drivers.
@@joeyredmon Truck drivers too. Trucking companies often have too many newhires with training that they have to put in a hotel. Sometimes they get unstable folks with odd behavior. I got a guy 62 yrs of age that just talked my head off. I mostly dealt with that fine (just had me sleepy in class) Then he started splashing urine all over the bathroom I had to use. ugh. Probably didnt last long OTR.
Hey James, One charter company I drove for would stage drivers out and do the relay thing. For runs from Chicago to Disney. Or Chicago to D.C.. But even that can be rough at times. Also a friend of mine was driving from Chicago to Memphis with a bus for a bachelorette's party. I think he called me at home at 11 P.M. We talked until 4 A.M.. Until he pulled into the hotel parking lot. I think that any driver will also agree with me on my personal theory of " The Corn row factor" Driving across Iowa in the night, with over 581 miles of CORN ROWS !!! THAN another 690 miles across Nebraska .....CORN !! I have found help and am able to eat corn again.
This is a great video James! As I used to work for a local municipality plowing snow in the winter, it was grueling for 14hrs plus. But I must be a bus nut, because I switched jobs, & became a school bus mechanic for another municipality! Take care & be safe!
Really enjoyed watching this video, a driver sent to me this morning. 8 hrs. core rest between shifts is not enough, and I really don't understand why this doesn't change. A lot of drivers average 4-6 hours of actual sleep, if they are lucky! Changes do need to be made, there are far too many accidents happening both in the US and in Canada. I work in Canada, and no longer drive Motor Coach. Hours of service regulations don't benefit the driver, unfortunately, and ultimately it is the driver that pays in the end.
Aviation has done this for decades, but with a significant amount of adjustments. Three or four pilots onboard instead of the usual two, pilots routinely swapping out mid flight, mandatory rest time before the flight, limiting the amount this is done, etc. If buses could have similar things like two drivers onboard at all times overnight that routinely pull over to swap out, then this could become a safe endeavor, just like in aviation.
I can't count the customers over the years that knew it was illegal and dangerous to require drivers to exceed the hours of service regs. and to ignore the need for multiple drivers. I even threatened to report one school principal to the I.C.C. for even asking us to do it. I placed great emphasis on proper rest time and preached it at our safety meetings. No matter how hard you fight it, your body will shut down when it has to and the result could be disastrous. ELD's can help but they are not the complete solution.
Whenever dispatch ask me if I want to do a long trip involving overnight driving or driving non stop together with another driver is a hard pass for me. Im lucky to be just a part time driver.
Night driving is no joke. I love night driving because it's less people on the road which makes it more relaxing and less stressful, but its very challenging to sleep during the day. I usually wind down by reading a chapter or two and I'm out like a light. Try to keep a dark, cool atmosphere
What kept me going OTR as a class A is music. Getting into bus driving as a career change. Are you able to listen to music while driving? Couldn't drive at night if I i didnt have something playing
Bus drivers are human. Besides sleep, there are probably times when a driver has pulled over for medical issues or other issues with a bus full of passengers. I personally don't know how you can focus on driving with 50 people talking and staring at the back of our head. I would get too nervous.
Ya know. I think it was in December 30 or 31 the other day where there was a skier named James who missed the chair lift. But where down here in California soo, unlikely that James was the skier that missed the chair. If it was. well. cool
This is great James, safety is very important not only for the passengers, but the drivers as well. I thank you guys for getting us there safely, because I know that driving under fatigue especially in harsh weather conditions isn’t easy 🫡 brother!
Motorcoach driving is harrowing. You wake up, eat, and go to sleep at different time of day, everyday, because everyday is different. A 14 hour day is the norm, or rather on the short side. The most I worked was 21 hours straight in a day. You never got a day off unless you asked for it in advance. Otherwise you worked 365 days a year. 8 hours between shifts? If you're lucky. Sometimes you only got 3 or 4. You had to go home, rest and come back within that time. You had to cheat on your log. Complain you're too tired? Company/client will lash out at you. Company sure won't protect you. They'll tell you you're spoiled. I'm glad I got out before anything bad happened. That was decades ago. I'm sure it's better now.
Thanks for this video. I've been out for almost 2 decades but the overnight drives were the worst. There was never any regard for the circadian rhythm. My dirty secret, when I was absolutely tired and still required to be behind the wheel on the highway if I wanted to keep my job, I'd take my seatbelt off. With the real risk of me falling asleep and killing people, I figured I wouldn't want to live to suffer the repercussions. That's how I coped with the industry standard practice at the time. Legal, but insane.
I’d done more than my share of overnight drives and they were hard on your body. I could do it better when I was younger but refused them after I got older. I drove part time and had a full time job also. I was up at 0430, worked 0630-1500 Monday to Friday. I took time off to do, let’s say, a four day trip, Thursday to Sunday. But the trip left the pickup at 2300. So I’d have to try to sleep during the day when my rhythm says I need to be awake. Then get up at 2000 to get ready, go to the garage, drive to the pickup and head out for the drive. My body says I should be asleep. Get to the destination then try to sleep during the day, only to sleep again that night to do day work the remaining days. The whole sleep rhythm is screwed up. It wasn’t safe. Another point is the required time off overnight. For example, the driver works all day with the group and gets back to the hotel at 2300. The group leader says see you at 0700 the next morning. They see that as the 8 hours off, when THEY get off the bus. But I still have to park the bus, do a post trip, update paperwork, maybe clean the inside because the group are slobs, lock up after getting my suitcase, then make the trek to my room, maybe need to iron a clean shirt for the next day to look professional, then try to unwind a bit before lights out. Then, in their scenario, be up at 0500 to shit shower and shave, try to get some food and coffee then be at the bus at 0645 to leave at 0700. So what’s wrong here? No way you can legally do that scenario nowadays because of the electronic logs. In no way will the driver get 8 hours of good rest. And my eight hours starts when I get into MY room until I leave MY room. So I would tell people no, I’ll see you in 10 hours. And our company would insist on that with groups. And with the slogs, I tell people I can’t legally go on duty until a minimum amount of time off has passed. Throw in extra if you are not at the same hotel and have to deadhead This has become a problem that needs to be addressed also because lack of overnight sleep is just as much of a problem, especially on travel days. Great video on an important subject, James.
I love this. Fatigue for not just Bus Operators is something to look at, train Operators, and airline pilots (international flights). We must look at the expectations and see if they are realistic. The stand your company has taken on not doing overnight trips, has me asking how does it impact customer itineraries? Traffic and more.
Wow! You certainly work for a good company. One that values their drivers and passengers safety above the almighty dollar. Yes there will be other companies that pounce on any business that still wants to night travel. But to me it speaks volumes about the safety your company has for everyone involved. You must be proud to work for such a great company. I personally would rather be safe than sorry. I’ve worked for companies during the night before and no matter how much sleep you get during the day your body still wants to sleep during the night. I love your videos, keep them coming. Im being hired by a bus company now and will soon find out how they treat their drivers,🤞 hopefully it will be good. Something tells me though the dollar has the last say.
Really excellent video James my mother almost got involved into an accident on a Trans-Bridge lines J4500 from New York City to Bethlehem Pennsylvania. In her case the driver was not staying in the lane despite that they were able to make it safely to Bethlehem Pennsylvania. One problem I see with the buses in the United States Canada Market is that they lack Lane departure warning something you'd see on European countries
My company did the same thing and eliminated overnight OTR work several years ago. An exception is made for our line runs that really can’t run any other time. Also I noticed your fire suppression system on whatever bus you were on needs attention… it’s flashing between ok and service system. We had a D doing that a few weeks ago… ended up needing a battery changed. Trying to help if you hadn’t noticed it.
Hey good observation. Yes it definitely needs attention. Usually the buses I used to record the videos are the ones that has to stay behind to get maintenance😂. The ones fit for service are usually not on the lot 😊.
I think what you said is great! I hate driving at night now that I am almost 52! Soon as it gets dark the idiots start driving! I am glad that your company made that decision it was great and maybe other companies will follow. Get a hotel room people! Thanks James
The company i work for here in Michigan is quitting the overnights as well. For the most part. College sports still try and see how far they can push us. Ive turned down many trips with a game at 7 or 8pm then a 6 or 7 hour drive home. Thats after running them around for lunch and practice during the day. Boggles my mind how they think thats acceptable. We have 1 last overnight run to DC this week then it's all done. Of course I'm the lucky one on it, and admittedly a little stressed over it. Midnight to 7 am.
School activity bus drivers are not held to the hours of service rules and trust me, some school districts abuse their drivers at the risk of safety. In our district, if a trip is to last longer than 14 hours, they send a second driver along. However, it's not like the 2nd driver gets to have quality sleep in a DOT approved sleeper. I've done many 14-hour trips. I'm lucky in the fact that I can grab 2 hours of sleep during the time that students are involved in activities at the destination (i.e., sporting event) and bounce back strong for many more hours.
As a commercial driver, I spend easily 75% of my time behind the wheel between the hours of 7PM and 9AM. That's driving a truck though, far less at stake when you're hauling freight rather than people. As long as I have my 10 off, I'm good to go anytime around the clock. I've never experienced any adverse effects from doing so, but then again, I'm conditioned to pull that off after doing it as long as I have. I respect your company's decision to pull the plug on overnight runs. What's good for one is not good for all
Same thing goes in the airline industry. A pilot is only legal for a certain amount of hours, before a different flight crew takes over, usually on long international travel. Safety has to come first, in the air and on the ground.
One thing I’d like to share that I’ve found that helps me tremendously is besides coffee, gum and sunflower seeds. Gum actually helps my stress level also. If you try the sunflower seeds, just don’t forget to bring an cup of some sort to spit the shells in 😂.
Oh and one more thing that helps me, put on your headphones or ear buds and listen to UA-cam videos such as these. I’ve found that even though I don’t really try to watch them when driving, but just listening to the conversation is very helpful to me.✌️
Years ago our church rented a bus for a retreat, we had two drivers who would switch out at every stop (about every 4 hours) it was about a 1,135 km drive (about 12 hours), we left around 4am and arrived into Abbotsford around 6pm for our weekend church conference, on our way back home we left around 6am and arrived home around 7am
You have no idea how many tour guides I have argued with who think that 8 hours of sleep for a bus driver starts from the minute the bus pulls into the hotel parking lot and ends when all the passengers are back on the bus and the wheels start turning in the morning... The company I work for has now made it mandatory that we get 10 hours off, that way we might actually get around 7 hours of sleep.
I’ve driven at least 3 all night trips lately. I hold my breathe when I leave on how it’s gonna go My trip was fine we drove all night and made it to our hotel at sunset which is the bewitching eta and complete partial unawareness but made it. 2 weeks later had a team requiring me to be up all day then go to game and drop off at the airport for their flight . After dropping off team I was suppose to drive 7 home alone 7 hours . I could only make it to Savannah and fatigue hit me and couldn’t go on so I got a room to be safe . Some days you can do it easily some days your body says no way. You just do t what day the fatigue issue will hit you. Dangerous
All great points for sure but as a coach company manager one of the biggest concerns for me for overnight travel is the lack of support when (not if) the motorcoach has a mechanical issue. As far as the point of someone that only sleeps 6 hours a night (like me for over 30 years) being less alert, would be debatable. Fortunately we are not all wired the same in that regard. . The point of refusing to do overnight trips as a safety concern is a valid one but can be managed differently. You brought up the point of two drivers which could definitely reduce the safety risk and would only cost the chartering group a small percentage more ( compared to 25 hotel rooms). You could also put the fresh driver relay point change somewhere in the middle of the night shift (say 3:00 am). Night time driving will not go away for our industry. For example, a college sport team has a late afternoon departure for a sporting event. The game runs late which results in a later home arrival which could run well into the night (say 2:00 am). I would imagine that there probably already exist technology which could monitor driver alertness. That might be the key someday.
I have fallen into microsleep while driving once, it was really scary, I was lucky nothing happened. In my experience if I am only a little bit tired I can get rid of almost all tiredness by getting out of the car and walking for a few minutes. But of course that only helps for the next hour or so.
yeah I can't operate properly without my 8 hours physical sleep (excluding tossing and turning). Otherwise the next day, i'm not my best and towards the end of the day, i'm indeed fighting fatigue. Let alone thinking about road safety
Hi James. fell asleep once due to my thyroid playing up. stopped driving and went home straight away to my bosses shagrin. Ok afterwards due to medication. Learned to drive a car in the dark so prefer this. Did rail replacement work before i retired mainly from 5pm to 2.am but no later. However cannot drive next day as take at least an hour when i get home to unwind.
Arriving safely is the primary measure of mission success & you are doing better for the safety of all coach passengers and drivers by speaking professionally, so thank you for speaking what must be said.
Kudos! Amen! Sales fails to take into consideration the human factor involved! Drivers are a commodity at their disposal. Like you mentioned, it will be the driver's fault when the unthinkable happens.
Hay James: So glad you brought this issue up. It's about time. I ended up retiring over this. I think schools were one of the worst culprits,then the military moves. Thanks, Mr. Nick
A friend of a friend just lost her life in a coach bus accident as the driver lost control at highway speeds and the bus tumbled into a ravine abutting the highway.
This is very similar to pilots and flight attendants. When I was a flight attendant, once a month I would do a week of overnight flights only as it was an easy way to boost my hours for the month. My trick was to do ones that left and arrived early -- if I could get home before the sun rose or as it happened, I could go to sleep and wake up refreshed in the afternoon. Flight attendants don't have legal daily limits (though companies often impose -- and subsequently exceed -- their own limits), but after six calendar days you must have 24 hours on the ground by law. Even the self-imposed rest times were not full rest, it included going to and from the hotel.
Excellent video. Our company no longer does night drives and hasn’t for years. We lost a few trips but were able to re-educate some customers and kept them. One thing drives me nuts though James is your phone in the middle of your windshield. Huge distraction and here in Ontario would get you a citation for drivers view obstructed.
Glad to hear it. You are not the first one to comment on my placement of my phone. It's not illegal here as long as you are using one touch. I use it solely for gps.
Overnight work is tough. I worked an overnight line run for a little over a year. I loved it because I rarely hit traffic and I had great days off (Fri/Sat). I also had a 3 hour layover where I could get some sleep in the driver's lounge. However I started having issues sleeping during thr day after about a year on thag run and it was getting more difficult to get through the night so the next bid I went back to daytime work.
I had the opposite problem. Able to sleep during the day, and fresh awake at night, however, I couldn’t go back to the normal routine of daytime work, and night sleep. It was like my biological clock was reversed. AM became PM, and reversed. 😏
There are also bus companies out there that will simply have a driver follow behind the coach in a non-commercial vehicle and then will switch out when the first driver reaches the end of their service time, meaning that the driver in the non-commercial vehicle has been awake and driving the entire time as well, but since it's not commercial, it isn't counted. The second driver will then get in the coach and start " fresh on the clock" despite the fact that they have been driving as long as the driver they have just replaced. This seems insane but there are companies who do it.
Well organized discussion and analysis using credible evidence and citations. Always love your videos. I've never driven a coach but as a former trucker, I can relate to a lot of your points. I don't disagree with your company's decision to cease overnight OTR runs; however, I always preferred running at night due to less car traffic, especially when driving in the Northeast.
Great video James ! I was wondering what were your toughts on autonomous vehicles and the future of the passenger transportation market. As i work in public transit it's an interesting subject but im unsure on how it'll affect the charter industry.
Excellent perspective James. For the last 38!years I have been a delivery driver. When back in my car after work, I occasionally have to inflict pain on myself to stay awake while on the interstate. I start early and get done about 3pm. Yes it’s worth losing business if that’s what it takes to be safe. If the bus crashes and kills someone, that’s not good for business. Plus if they hire extra drivers for an overnight, good bye reasonable prices. This subject reminds me of those buses that take recruits to Marine Corps. basic in the middle of the night.
What about Greyhound and other transit companies that run a 24/7 operation. I work for the Long Island railroad. We are also 24/7/365. But we also work in shifts.
Iff a driver does either daytime or nightime trips, he/she can adjust to a sleep schedule as long as their work hours are consistent, like all days for a month, or all nights for a month You can adjust your sleep. But if you're driving days, nights or afternoons all in a one week period, that for sure is a recipe for driver fatigue and dangerous conditions. Just saying.😊
James, thank you for the insight that you bring to the profession. I have a slightly different take on fatigue, and other distractions. For the record, I retired from motorcoach driving in 2001. At that time, I had worked 11,655 days without an accident. I got to that goal incrementally. A day at a time. One time, in the 70’s, (in my 30’s) I was on the extra board. First in, first out. 15 people on the board. At 10 pm I checked with the dispatcher to see where I was on the board. 6th. Most likely going out on a morning run. He told me. I went to sleep. At 11:45, pm, he called me back to operate a second section schedule between Reno and Las Vegas. 6 people in front of me dropped, so it was mine for the taking. I left 90 minutes behind the original schedule time with 14 passengers and 2 bins of freight. Self hypnosis is very helpful, and it saved the day. (Night?) That trip is 449 miles, and takes 8 hours. Clint Eastwood’s famous line “A man needs to know his limitations.” Is an important lesson. I am nearly 70, and my 866 mile trip to visit my dad is getting more difficult as I age. I can still make the trip in 16 hours, but sometime the bladder doesn’t exceed the gas tank. Yes, I can still go for 5 hours non-stop, but that is only by the training I received in my career. Keep up the good fight, James, You are helping others to see what it really takes to be a professional motor coach operator. Ask me another time about a 21 hour school bus move. Another story I won’t forget. Self hypnosis can help you fall asleep any time, any where. It takes a lot of practice, but once it is mastered, you can work 24 hours if so desired. For logging purposes, an hour off duty not driving could be used for sleeping. (I used my baggage bin, and kept the hotel money. I had a run in the 90’s that had a 6 hour layover) but any rest will keep you healthy. And eat! The food you eat can help your circadian rhythm’s.
i only drive at night,i made that perfectly clear to the company i worked for,as i came from driving local night buses for years,so i am permantly rostered as a late night driver. drivers hours drasticly need to change,a longer off duty period is not long long enough..itotally agree with everything you have highlighted in this video
Full respect for your company's decision. And your video reminded me of a fairly recent crash, where a Macedonian driver fell asleep at night and crashed a bus, causing the deaths of 46 tourists! The bus burned out completely after the crash. I'm pretty sure, that the driver was in this insomnia state of mind, as you described, as nothing else could possibly explain, why he did not move to the lane on the left, and instead busted the bus in the divider on a highway exit. Such tragedies can and should be avoided.
Ah, music to my ears. I am your overnight driver, and will take them anytime offered. As a night owl, I was taught self hypnosis when I was 18 years old. It isn’t difficult for me to stay up for 33 hours at a time. (And still be sharp). However, I won’t violate DOT rules on hours of service. Bus company owners should know who they trust to do a night run, and give the operator enough rest ahead of the trip. I had my windows at home blocked by foam covered in a black curtain. Some of us would bid line service overnight runs, because of less traffic and quieter passengers. Attention Drivers, your CDL is valuable. Don’t risk it if you are tired before you come to work. My most favorite trip was a military move from Fort Irwin to Fort Collins. A 500 bus move, buses dispatched every 5 minutes, multiple companies in all flavors of buses. I was in bus 302 departing, and was arriving bus number 123. It always helps if you have a good horse. Especially climbing the hills in the west. On this move we were exempt of all regulations.
This video made me think of drivers hours in relation to drum and bugle corps. If you are not familiar with that activity (most aren’t!), it’s kind of like “professional” marching band in the summer from late June to early August. Corps are based all around the US - two major ones are in Illinois, the Cavaliers from Rosemont and the Phantom Regiment from Rockford. The groups tour the country via motorcoach, ending up in Indianapolis for the world championships the second weekend of August. The groups used to own their own buses back in the day (70s, 80s, into the 90s). Most were MCI but one corps from Cali had a nice fleet of Eagle Model 5s. Anyway, these corps have largely gone to using charter coaches all summer. Group sizes are limited to three coaches and they generally have 2-4 tractor-trailers for equipment including a mobile kitchen. Most groups have RVs (including motorcoach chassis models) for staff. It’s quite a rolling convoy when a drum corps show comes to town! After they perform a show, they typically travel through the night to their next housing/practice site (usually a high school) or show city. They often leave around midnight and arrive in the next location maybe 4a- 6a. Some days they stay at their practice site and don’t travel. I’ve always wondered how the drivers get their rest since the corps rarely stay in hotels. I don’t know if you have any connections to people with familiarity of the transportation side of drum corps, but it has a significant motorcoach angle that touches on a lot of your topics. If nothing else, it might be interesting to you!
Trailways system here, since 95 (Oh I have stories!) ...sometimes night driving is cool due to lighter traffic, cooler temps, overall quiet. Rest is the factor here. Sometimes difficult to sleep daytime for the night run. Listening device or good conversation with that passenger that can't sleep are great options. JUST PULL OVER at the rest/truck stop. On a single run who cares how much you stop as long as you get there safely.
I looooove night drives! As long as I'm done by 7am the latest and in my hotel room before rush hour traffic. Night drives are great, everyone is sleeping, it's nice and quiet, no traffic, open highway, I stop at the border for passenger inspection then make one stop half way through the night for 30 minutes and that's it! I love leaving Toronto at 9:30pm and dropping off my passengers in New York City at 5am and then having the whole day off!
I applaud your honesty and courage. I drove cross country for 40 years as an owner operator, in the household goods industry. I experience all the things you described. The external pressures to get the job done, never stops, but it is up to you, the driver, to do the correct thing. When your income is dependent on performance, despite incidents beyond your control, you must fight yourself, not to fall into the trap. Today’s technology and recording devices are more your friend, than your enemy. Recording technology, when being coerced are golden and I believe should be used to protect you and your family. If you let it happen, recordings can’t fix the outcome of the accident, when you succumb to the pressure. I logged over 3 millions from 1970-2010, and at 80 yrs old i miss the road, but don’t think i could deal with the stupid rule changes of the playing field of today. Keep up the good work. George🇺🇸
Well done, as usual. Having worked with any number of drivers with little or no long distance, night driving experience, I always try to leave them with a thought to keep in mind. As there seems to be a common mindset that "I can do this just like anyone else can", combined with the desire to prove personal value, many will push themselves to the "scare" point you spoke of. I remind them that logic and common sense tell you that EVERY driver who fell asleep at the wheel and drove off the road, THOUGHT he could go a bit farther.
I have a question.....Hello James.... is it ok... or normal procedure for a coach employer to state ....That you are not allowed to use the restroom while driving four to six hours? I thought it was extreme. Thank you!
The constructive way to state your conclusion is to compare it to changes made in the past that WERE ridiculous in hindsight, as in doctors recommending the best cigarette. In the future we'll all say there was a time when we thought it was ok to load a coach with 70 children and have the driver take them OVERNIGHT to their destination so that the organizers could save on one night's lodging for the 70 children. Stupid, wasn't it?
So many times I’ve done thru the night charters and have struggled occasionally but I’ve actually had problems during the daylight hours as well. For me it all boils down to, the more I look at the clock and see the sleep time ticking away the more I panic. And when that sets in it’s in my head and I’m done. Im retired and this is my part time job so I’m real selective with the jobs they offer me so I don’t put myself in those situations very often.
Arriving at lodging in a "shady part of town" on a multi coach move , I asked the clerk if I had a room mate. He asked, "do you want one?" I was too tired to understand the hint.
Before I started working in transportation, I was traveling on a Greyhound overnight trip between St Louis and Chicago. There were so many passengers they had to provide 2 extra buses. When we were crossing the bridge into East St Louis, I noticed how deep the driver's voice was. It was kinda like he came to work straight from bed. About 90 minutes later, everyone on the bus was asleep when all of the sudden the rumble strip on the shoulder woke us all up. The driver managed to get the bus back on the road, but from that point until we got to the station in Chicago, I couldn't and wouldn't go back to sleep. That incident was etched in my being and when I did some overnight trips as a bus driver, I made sure that what happened to that Greyhound driver would not happen to me. I thank God for keeping me alert and my passengers safe. When I dispatched trips that required mid route reliefs, I tried to pad the relief driver's time as much as I could without overspending the company's money. So I was required to make sure the relief driver had 8 hrs off duty, but if I could stretch it out to 10 or even 12 hours off, I did, especially if I knew he was going to have a ling day once he took over. It was necessary for me to have the groups itinerary so I could plan accordingly. There were trips that I had to have a third driver because the relief driver would have run out of hours. I was blessed to have a third driver available who was waiting for another group to take home, but since he still had another day to wait for them, I just used him to spell the relief driver long enough to stay within his legal hours of service. These groups never factor driver safety in their planning Fortunately my plan didn't cost the company nor the client any extra money
I don't feel right driving my car overnight. Even with (allegedly) getting proper rest. I cannot imagine the challenge of doing the same with a bus or truck. Be safe out there.
Thanks for bringing attention to this subject. This happened to me on a grad night to Disneyland. I had the special needs students on my coach (10 bus move). Upon dropping off the students at Disney, we (drivers) piled into one bus for the hotel. It was a lousy hotel, uncomfortable and noisey. Could not get to sleep. At 2am, had to reload the students and start back to Fresno. I could not stay awake after the first hour or so on the road. I had to stop several times to get out of the driver's seat and walk around the coach a couple of times and then continue. About 3/4 of the way home I couldn't do it any longer. I pulled into a rest area, called my dispatch to inform them I was going to be a couple hours late getting the students back. I crawled into the luggage bay and slept for about 2 hours (beleive it or not, I carry an air matress with me). After my "power nap" I was able to finish the drive. The parents were upset to say the least, even though dispatch had notified the school I would be late in returning. After all was said and done, the parents apologized and thanked me for keeping their kids safe. About a week later, I received a box of letters from my student passengers, all thanking me for keeping them safe, with comments on what a great time they had. Gotta love them special needs kids.
Wow what a great story. Thank you for sharing this. You did the right thing. 😊
Sometimes doing the right thing is VERY difficult. You put their safety above hurt feelings and having angry parents scolding you and your company. Good for you.
Damn, thank you for that story. The world needs more voices like yours to show that doing the right thing inspite of the short term consequences pays off
James, I am glad you made this video. I left the charter bus industry in 2018 because of a stage trip that went bad due to a reservation screw up at the rest hotels. This was a six bus convoy we were meeting on the relay. The lead driver of that group decided to bypass our hotel to drive another hour down the interstate and do the swap in a parking lot. Nobody got any rest, particularly me because I had driven the crew van to the hotel! When I complained, the two lead drivers said, 'That's bus driving' and laughed it off. The owners of the company didn't think much of it either. But continued the process. I loved driving motorcoaches, they are fun to drive and better than 18 wheelers which I drove before. That night my life was endangered and the lives of 56 school kids as well. All due to 'that's bus driving. I quit. Keep up the good work, I love your channel.
I used to work for a company like that. Because of their cavalier attitude, one of our drivers slid off the interstate during a blizzard and endangered the lives of 56 students. The company lost its contract with the university and was sued for millions.
I once got into an argument with a former supervisor who believed that waiting for passengers who are off the bus dining counts as "off duty, not driving"
I said, "No, the only way you can be off duty not driving is to relinquish custody of the bus to another driver, back at the yard or have the bus locked overnight at a hotel during a charter. If you are waiting for passenger to come back from lunch, you are subject to be recalled to driving at any moment, so are still on duty"
I just saw a report about a bus crash in Italy, it was on a bus being driven through the night, many lives lost. I was driving for greyhound , in the '90's , mostly nights, and right around 4-5 a.m , have those issues. There where many times , on my way to Omaha, I would seem to miss that 60 miles between there and Lincoln. I am glad that I was able to get out of the business. And thanks for the video.!
We have a sleep bunk in our coaches, and longer trips we drive with 2 drivers on board. We change every 4 hours or so, or even sooner when one got's tired. In that way we can do a trip of max 21 Hours. Don't you do that in the USA? And indeed, sharing rooms is a big no!
My first years at the Hound were challenging to say the least. When you worked the extra board you were on call 24/7 so you never knew when an assignment would come up. You could be down on the board all day and suddenly be called at 9:30pm for a two hour report on an all night run. This happened many times and proper rest and being "fresh" was not reality. I had many tricks to push back the sleep monster but anyone who lived this knows how powerful he is. Driver fatigue is a serious industry problem.
Great video James. In my 15 years of driving, I’ve had my experiences with overnight trips from Phoenix to Los Angeles, CA. Never liked them, and I’m extremely happy to work for a company who as well have discontinued overnight trips. Keep up the great work!
I knew a guy at the railroad I retired from who at one time was a bus driver for Greyhound. He talked about one-time, decades ago, where he was so overworked and fatigued driving an intercity bus that he had to tell his passengers, "Sorry, I'm so tired from the company (Greyhound) not allowing me to get a decent rest that I have to pull into this rest stop to get some sleep." Which he proceeded to do. Excellent story on vehicular driving and lack of sleep. Thanks for sharing!
Did this once, too... Appreciated by all passengers !
Not sure where your guy was dispatched out of. But being out of the Chicago terminal for Greyhound. They gave us over 12 hours of off time on most runs. Doing over 2500 -3000 + miles per week was pretty common for me. And if I needed a break, I would pull over and....check the fan belts in the back of the bus. Or even give my passengers a smoke break.
Great video. A lot of good points. Yes, NO SHARING A ROOM with another driver(s). Some customers really need to see this video to better understanding of what the needs are for motor coach drivers.
@@joeyredmon Truck drivers too. Trucking companies often have too many newhires with training that they have to put in a hotel. Sometimes they get unstable folks with odd behavior. I got a guy 62 yrs of age that just talked my head off. I mostly dealt with that fine (just had me sleepy in class) Then he started splashing urine all over the bathroom I had to use. ugh. Probably didnt last long OTR.
Hey James, One charter company I drove for would stage drivers out and do the relay thing. For runs from Chicago to Disney.
Or Chicago to D.C.. But even that can be rough at times.
Also a friend of mine was driving from Chicago to Memphis with a bus for a bachelorette's party. I think he called me at home at 11 P.M. We talked until 4 A.M.. Until he pulled into the hotel parking lot.
I think that any driver will also agree with me on my personal theory of " The Corn row factor" Driving across Iowa in the night, with over 581 miles of CORN ROWS !!! THAN another 690 miles across Nebraska .....CORN !!
I have found help and am able to eat corn again.
This is a great video James! As I used to work for a local municipality plowing snow in the winter, it was grueling for 14hrs plus. But I must be a bus nut, because I switched jobs, & became a school bus mechanic for another municipality! Take care & be safe!
Really enjoyed watching this video, a driver sent to me this morning. 8 hrs. core rest between shifts is not enough, and I really don't understand why this doesn't change. A lot of drivers average 4-6 hours of actual sleep, if they are lucky! Changes do need to be made, there are far too many accidents happening both in the US and in Canada. I work in Canada, and no longer drive Motor Coach. Hours of service regulations don't benefit the driver, unfortunately, and ultimately it is the driver that pays in the end.
Aviation has done this for decades, but with a significant amount of adjustments. Three or four pilots onboard instead of the usual two, pilots routinely swapping out mid flight, mandatory rest time before the flight, limiting the amount this is done, etc. If buses could have similar things like two drivers onboard at all times overnight that routinely pull over to swap out, then this could become a safe endeavor, just like in aviation.
I can't count the customers over the years that knew it was illegal and dangerous to require drivers to exceed the hours of service regs. and to ignore the need for multiple drivers. I even threatened to report one school principal to the I.C.C. for even asking us to do it. I placed great emphasis on proper rest time and preached it at our safety meetings. No matter how hard you fight it, your body will shut down when it has to and the result could be disastrous. ELD's can help but they are not the complete solution.
PSA to all the drivers out there! If you feel tired during the daytime, get your power naps! This is the only way to really fight your fatigue.
Whenever dispatch ask me if I want to do a long trip involving overnight driving or driving non stop together with another driver is a hard pass for me. Im lucky to be just a part time driver.
Night driving is no joke. I love night driving because it's less people on the road which makes it more relaxing and less stressful, but its very challenging to sleep during the day. I usually wind down by reading a chapter or two and I'm out like a light. Try to keep a dark, cool atmosphere
What kept me going OTR as a class A is music. Getting into bus driving as a career change. Are you able to listen to music while driving? Couldn't drive at night if I i didnt have something playing
Bus drivers are human. Besides sleep, there are probably times when a driver has pulled over for medical issues or other issues with a bus full of passengers. I personally don't know how you can focus on driving with 50 people talking and staring at the back of our head. I would get too nervous.
Ya know. I think it was in December 30 or 31 the other day where there was a skier named James who missed the chair lift. But where down here in California soo, unlikely that James was the skier that missed the chair. If it was. well. cool
This is great James, safety is very important not only for the passengers, but the drivers as well. I thank you guys for getting us there safely, because I know that driving under fatigue especially in harsh weather conditions isn’t easy 🫡 brother!
Kudos to your company for doing the right thing.
I remember bus driver for Greyhound once during overnight trip everybody was sleeping and driver decided to join them and have some nap.
Motorcoach driving is harrowing. You wake up, eat, and go to sleep at different time of day, everyday, because everyday is different. A 14 hour day is the norm, or rather on the short side. The most I worked was 21 hours straight in a day. You never got a day off unless you asked for it in advance. Otherwise you worked 365 days a year. 8 hours between shifts? If you're lucky. Sometimes you only got 3 or 4. You had to go home, rest and come back within that time. You had to cheat on your log. Complain you're too tired? Company/client will lash out at you. Company sure won't protect you. They'll tell you you're spoiled. I'm glad I got out before anything bad happened. That was decades ago. I'm sure it's better now.
Is better today. Electronic Drivers Log keeps taps on everything, and companies no longer take chances due to liabilities.
Thanks for this video. I've been out for almost 2 decades but the overnight drives were the worst. There was never any regard for the circadian rhythm. My dirty secret, when I was absolutely tired and still required to be behind the wheel on the highway if I wanted to keep my job, I'd take my seatbelt off. With the real risk of me falling asleep and killing people, I figured I wouldn't want to live to suffer the repercussions. That's how I coped with the industry standard practice at the time. Legal, but insane.
I’d done more than my share of overnight drives and they were hard on your body. I could do it better when I was younger but refused them after I got older. I drove part time and had a full time job also. I was up at 0430, worked 0630-1500 Monday to Friday. I took time off to do, let’s say, a four day trip, Thursday to Sunday. But the trip left the pickup at 2300. So I’d have to try to sleep during the day when my rhythm says I need to be awake. Then get up at 2000 to get ready, go to the garage, drive to the pickup and head out for the drive. My body says I should be asleep. Get to the destination then try to sleep during the day, only to sleep again that night to do day work the remaining days. The whole sleep rhythm is screwed up. It wasn’t safe.
Another point is the required time off overnight. For example, the driver works all day with the group and gets back to the hotel at 2300. The group leader says see you at 0700 the next morning. They see that as the 8 hours off, when THEY get off the bus. But I still have to park the bus, do a post trip, update paperwork, maybe clean the inside because the group are slobs, lock up after getting my suitcase, then make the trek to my room, maybe need to iron a clean shirt for the next day to look professional, then try to unwind a bit before lights out. Then, in their scenario, be up at 0500 to shit shower and shave, try to get some food and coffee then be at the bus at 0645 to leave at 0700. So what’s wrong here?
No way you can legally do that scenario nowadays because of the electronic logs. In no way will the driver get 8 hours of good rest. And my eight hours starts when I get into MY room until I leave MY room. So I would tell people no, I’ll see you in 10 hours. And our company would insist on that with groups. And with the slogs, I tell people I can’t legally go on duty until a minimum amount of time off has passed. Throw in extra if you are not at the same hotel and have to deadhead This has become a problem that needs to be addressed also because lack of overnight sleep is just as much of a problem, especially on travel days.
Great video on an important subject, James.
Elogs, not slogs. 😬
I love this. Fatigue for not just Bus Operators is something to look at, train Operators, and airline pilots (international flights). We must look at the expectations and see if they are realistic. The stand your company has taken on not doing overnight trips, has me asking how does it impact customer itineraries? Traffic and more.
Pilots are doubled up with cruise control. Bus drivers don’t have those options.
Wow! You certainly work for a good company. One that values their drivers and passengers safety above the almighty dollar. Yes there will be other companies that pounce on any business that still wants to night travel. But to me it speaks volumes about the safety your company has for everyone involved. You must be proud to work for such a great company. I personally would rather be safe than sorry. I’ve worked for companies during the night before and no matter how much sleep you get during the day your body still wants to sleep during the night. I love your videos, keep them coming. Im being hired by a bus company now and will soon find out how they treat their drivers,🤞 hopefully it will be good. Something tells me though the dollar has the last say.
Really excellent video James my mother almost got involved into an accident on a Trans-Bridge lines J4500 from New York City to Bethlehem Pennsylvania. In her case the driver was not staying in the lane despite that they were able to make it safely to Bethlehem Pennsylvania. One problem I see with the buses in the United States Canada Market is that they lack Lane departure warning something you'd see on European countries
My company did the same thing and eliminated overnight OTR work several years ago. An exception is made for our line runs that really can’t run any other time.
Also I noticed your fire suppression system on whatever bus you were on needs attention… it’s flashing between ok and service system. We had a D doing that a few weeks ago… ended up needing a battery changed. Trying to help if you hadn’t noticed it.
Hey good observation. Yes it definitely needs attention. Usually the buses I used to record the videos are the ones that has to stay behind to get maintenance😂. The ones fit for service are usually not on the lot 😊.
I think what you said is great! I hate driving at night now that I am almost 52! Soon as it gets dark the idiots start driving! I am glad that your company made that decision it was great and maybe other companies will follow. Get a hotel room people! Thanks James
The company i work for here in Michigan is quitting the overnights as well. For the most part. College sports still try and see how far they can push us. Ive turned down many trips with a game at 7 or 8pm then a 6 or 7 hour drive home. Thats after running them around for lunch and practice during the day. Boggles my mind how they think thats acceptable.
We have 1 last overnight run to DC this week then it's all done. Of course I'm the lucky one on it, and admittedly a little stressed over it. Midnight to 7 am.
School activity bus drivers are not held to the hours of service rules and trust me, some school districts abuse their drivers at the risk of safety. In our district, if a trip is to last longer than 14 hours, they send a second driver along. However, it's not like the 2nd driver gets to have quality sleep in a DOT approved sleeper. I've done many 14-hour trips. I'm lucky in the fact that I can grab 2 hours of sleep during the time that students are involved in activities at the destination (i.e., sporting event) and bounce back strong for many more hours.
As a commercial driver, I spend easily 75% of my time behind the wheel between the hours of 7PM and 9AM. That's driving a truck though, far less at stake when you're hauling freight rather than people. As long as I have my 10 off, I'm good to go anytime around the clock. I've never experienced any adverse effects from doing so, but then again, I'm conditioned to pull that off after doing it as long as I have. I respect your company's decision to pull the plug on overnight runs. What's good for one is not good for all
Well said! Thank you for your comment and your years supplying the US! Be safe out there sir!
Same thing goes in the airline industry. A pilot is only legal for a certain amount of hours, before a different flight crew takes over, usually on long international travel. Safety has to come first, in the air and on the ground.
One thing I’d like to share that I’ve found that helps me tremendously is besides coffee, gum and sunflower seeds. Gum actually helps my stress level also. If you try the sunflower seeds, just don’t forget to bring an cup of some sort to spit the shells in 😂.
Oh and one more thing that helps me, put on your headphones or ear buds and listen to UA-cam videos such as these. I’ve found that even though I don’t really try to watch them when driving, but just listening to the conversation is very helpful to me.✌️
Years ago our church rented a bus for a retreat, we had two drivers who would switch out at every stop (about every 4 hours) it was about a 1,135 km drive (about 12 hours), we left around 4am and arrived into Abbotsford around 6pm for our weekend church conference, on our way back home we left around 6am and arrived home around 7am
You have no idea how many tour guides I have argued with who think that 8 hours of sleep for a bus driver starts from the minute the bus pulls into the hotel parking lot and ends when all the passengers are back on the bus and the wheels start turning in the morning...
The company I work for has now made it mandatory that we get 10 hours off, that way we might actually get around 7 hours of sleep.
Long Night Drives should be avoided as much as possible.
I’ve driven at least 3 all night trips lately. I hold my breathe when I leave on how it’s gonna go My trip was fine we drove all night and made it to our hotel at sunset which is the bewitching eta and complete partial unawareness but made it. 2 weeks later had a team requiring me to be up all day then go to game and drop off at the airport for their flight . After dropping off team I was suppose to drive 7 home alone 7 hours . I could only make it to Savannah and fatigue hit me and couldn’t go on so I got a room to be safe . Some days you can do it easily some days your body says no way. You just do t what day the fatigue issue will hit you. Dangerous
I literally hate grad nights…it’s such a struggle to stay awake at night while everyone is knocked out all comfy In the back.
I've driven over night line runs for overtime. I was able to get some rest prior to my run which helped. Great video very valid points.
All great points for sure but as a coach company manager one of the biggest concerns for me for overnight travel is the lack of support when (not if) the motorcoach has a mechanical issue. As far as the point of someone that only sleeps 6 hours a night (like me for over 30 years) being less alert, would be debatable. Fortunately we are not all wired the same in that regard. .
The point of refusing to do overnight trips as a safety concern is a valid one but can be managed differently. You brought up the point of two drivers which could definitely reduce the safety risk and would only cost the chartering group a small percentage more ( compared to 25 hotel rooms). You could also put the fresh driver relay point change somewhere in the middle of the night shift (say 3:00 am).
Night time driving will not go away for our industry. For example, a college sport team has a late afternoon departure for a sporting event. The game runs late which results in a later home arrival which could run well into the night (say 2:00 am).
I would imagine that there probably already exist technology which could monitor driver alertness. That might be the key someday.
Completely agree with you on everything you say #SAFETY FIRST
Thank you for doing this video! just what the busing industry needed.
I have fallen into microsleep while driving once, it was really scary, I was lucky nothing happened.
In my experience if I am only a little bit tired I can get rid of almost all tiredness by getting out of the car and walking for a few minutes. But of course that only helps for the next hour or so.
Great information, hopefully both companies and groups will take it to heart and help make the road safer for everyone.
I enjoyed this video. I have implemented that same thing in my business I do not travel at night.❤
yeah I can't operate properly without my 8 hours physical sleep (excluding tossing and turning). Otherwise the next day, i'm not my best and towards the end of the day, i'm indeed fighting fatigue. Let alone thinking about road safety
Even as a tractor trailer driver hos doesn't garentee your well rested especially when sleeping in a truck
Caught myself more than once. That can cause you to have to change underwear.
Incredibly important subject! Thank you for covering this issue.
Hi James. fell asleep once due to my thyroid playing up. stopped driving and went home straight away to my bosses shagrin. Ok afterwards due to medication. Learned to drive a car in the dark so prefer this. Did rail replacement work before i retired mainly from 5pm to 2.am but no later. However cannot drive next day as take at least an hour when i get home to unwind.
Being awake 18 hours has the same effect on driving as a blood alcohol level of 0.05%
James, I've noticed that the older I get, The harder it is to stay awake, lare at night.
Arriving safely is the primary measure of mission success & you are doing better for the safety of all coach passengers and drivers by speaking professionally, so thank you for speaking what must be said.
Kudos! Amen! Sales fails to take into consideration the human factor involved! Drivers are a commodity at their disposal. Like you mentioned, it will be the driver's fault when the unthinkable happens.
Another fantastic video that is great to show both new and old operators
Hay James:
So glad you brought this issue up. It's about time.
I ended up retiring over this.
I think schools were one of the worst culprits,then the military moves.
Thanks, Mr. Nick
Very informative video. One of the most dangerous things I see drivers do is they take breaks and naps while sitting in their drivers seat.
A friend of a friend just lost her life in a coach bus accident as the driver lost control at highway speeds and the bus tumbled into a ravine abutting the highway.
Im so sorry!
If you are on tour you have to do laundry and also clean your bus regularly.
This is very similar to pilots and flight attendants. When I was a flight attendant, once a month I would do a week of overnight flights only as it was an easy way to boost my hours for the month. My trick was to do ones that left and arrived early -- if I could get home before the sun rose or as it happened, I could go to sleep and wake up refreshed in the afternoon. Flight attendants don't have legal daily limits (though companies often impose -- and subsequently exceed -- their own limits), but after six calendar days you must have 24 hours on the ground by law. Even the self-imposed rest times were not full rest, it included going to and from the hotel.
Already in the first 90 seconds of this video, I love this topic! Ok, now on to finish the video, LOL. Thanks James ✌️
lol thank you so much for the kind words.
Hi James! Thank you for your videos. I have recently obtained my B License CDL because of your videos.
Hey thanks for the comment. I'm honored. I hope you will love your driving career. Maybe one day we will meet over the road.
One of the best videos you've ever done thank you
Excellent video. Our company no longer does night drives and hasn’t for years. We lost a few trips but were able to re-educate some customers and kept them. One thing drives me nuts though James is your phone in the middle of your windshield. Huge distraction and here in Ontario would get you a citation for drivers view obstructed.
Glad to hear it. You are not the first one to comment on my placement of my phone.
It's not illegal here as long as you are using one touch. I use it solely for gps.
Overnight work is tough. I worked an overnight line run for a little over a year. I loved it because I rarely hit traffic and I had great days off (Fri/Sat). I also had a 3 hour layover where I could get some sleep in the driver's lounge. However I started having issues sleeping during thr day after about a year on thag run and it was getting more difficult to get through the night so the next bid I went back to daytime work.
I had the opposite problem. Able to sleep during the day, and fresh awake at night, however, I couldn’t go back to the normal routine of daytime work, and night sleep. It was like my biological clock was reversed. AM became PM, and reversed. 😏
There are also bus companies out there that will simply have a driver follow behind the coach in a non-commercial vehicle and then will switch out when the first driver reaches the end of their service time, meaning that the driver in the non-commercial vehicle has been awake and driving the entire time as well, but since it's not commercial, it isn't counted.
The second driver will then get in the coach and start " fresh on the clock" despite the fact that they have been driving as long as the driver they have just replaced.
This seems insane but there are companies who do it.
😧
Well organized discussion and analysis using credible evidence and citations. Always love your videos. I've never driven a coach but as a former trucker, I can relate to a lot of your points. I don't disagree with your company's decision to cease overnight OTR runs; however, I always preferred running at night due to less car traffic, especially when driving in the Northeast.
Great video James ! I was wondering what were your toughts on autonomous vehicles and the future of the passenger transportation market. As i work in public transit it's an interesting subject but im unsure on how it'll affect the charter industry.
Really great video James
Excellent perspective James. For the last 38!years I have been a delivery driver. When back in my car after work, I occasionally have to inflict pain on myself to stay awake while on the interstate. I start early and get done about 3pm. Yes it’s worth losing business if that’s what it takes to be safe. If the bus crashes and kills someone, that’s not good for business. Plus if they hire extra drivers for an overnight, good bye reasonable prices.
This subject reminds me of those buses that take recruits to Marine Corps. basic in the middle of the night.
Im so ready to start driving motorcoachs your videos only motivate me more thanks!
Hey thank you so much! I appreciate the kind words. I hope you love every minute of your job once you become a motorcoach operator.
My favorite Intro music to your videos!! What the name of that tune?
Hey thank you. It's called purple fire by ELFL
I'm glad you made this video and made it known it needs to be seen by more people I've been in the industry for over 30yrs and it still hard for me
What about Greyhound and other transit companies that run a 24/7 operation. I work for the Long Island railroad. We are also 24/7/365. But we also work in shifts.
Iff a driver does either daytime or nightime trips, he/she can adjust to a sleep schedule as long as their work hours are consistent, like all days for a month, or all nights for a month You can adjust your sleep. But if you're driving days, nights or afternoons all in a one week period, that for sure is a recipe for driver fatigue and dangerous conditions. Just saying.😊
Thank you looking forward to more videos
Yes been there done that
What a great position to take on this issue. We've all been there, micro-sleep is REAL.... and REAL DANGEROUS! Thanks for the video!
James, thank you for the insight that you bring to the profession. I have a slightly different take on fatigue, and other distractions. For the record, I retired from motorcoach driving in 2001. At that time, I had worked 11,655 days without an accident. I got to that goal incrementally. A day at a time.
One time, in the 70’s, (in my 30’s) I was on the extra board. First in, first out. 15 people on the board. At 10 pm I checked with the dispatcher to see where I was on the board. 6th. Most likely going out on a morning run. He told me. I went to sleep. At 11:45, pm, he called me back to operate a second section schedule between Reno and Las Vegas. 6 people in front of me dropped, so it was mine for the taking. I left 90 minutes behind the original schedule time with 14 passengers and 2 bins of freight. Self hypnosis is very helpful, and it saved the day. (Night?) That trip is 449 miles, and takes 8 hours. Clint Eastwood’s famous line “A man needs to know his limitations.” Is an important lesson. I am nearly 70, and my 866 mile trip to visit my dad is getting more difficult as I age. I can still make the trip in 16 hours, but sometime the bladder doesn’t exceed the gas tank. Yes, I can still go for 5 hours non-stop, but that is only by the training I received in my career.
Keep up the good fight, James, You are helping others to see what it really takes to be a professional motor coach operator.
Ask me another time about a 21 hour school bus move. Another story I won’t forget.
Self hypnosis can help you fall asleep any time, any where. It takes a lot of practice, but once it is mastered, you can work 24 hours if so desired. For logging purposes, an hour off duty not driving could be used for sleeping. (I used my baggage bin, and kept the hotel money. I had a run in the 90’s that had a 6 hour layover) but any rest will keep you healthy. And eat! The food you eat can help your circadian rhythm’s.
Hey James I would like to send some MTA New York City Transit hat and some gear? How do I contact you?
Oh cool. Email me jwang@peoriacharter.com
I definitely email you brother
i only drive at night,i made that perfectly clear to the company i worked for,as i came from driving local night buses for years,so i am permantly rostered as a late night driver. drivers hours drasticly need to change,a longer off duty period is not long long enough..itotally agree with everything you have highlighted in this video
Full respect for your company's decision.
And your video reminded me of a fairly recent crash, where a Macedonian driver fell asleep at night and crashed a bus, causing the deaths of 46 tourists! The bus burned out completely after the crash.
I'm pretty sure, that the driver was in this insomnia state of mind, as you described, as nothing else could possibly explain, why he did not move to the lane on the left, and instead busted the bus in the divider on a highway exit.
Such tragedies can and should be avoided.
Ah, music to my ears. I am your overnight driver, and will take them anytime offered. As a night owl, I was taught self hypnosis when I was 18 years old. It isn’t difficult for me to stay up for 33 hours at a time. (And still be sharp). However, I won’t violate DOT rules on hours of service. Bus company owners should know who they trust to do a night run, and give the operator enough rest ahead of the trip. I had my windows at home blocked by foam covered in a black curtain. Some of us would bid line service overnight runs, because of less traffic and quieter passengers. Attention Drivers, your CDL is valuable. Don’t risk it if you are tired before you come to work. My most favorite trip was a military move from Fort Irwin to Fort Collins. A 500 bus move, buses dispatched every 5 minutes, multiple companies in all flavors of buses. I was in bus 302 departing, and was arriving bus number 123. It always helps if you have a good horse. Especially climbing the hills in the west. On this move we were exempt of all regulations.
This video made me think of drivers hours in relation to drum and bugle corps. If you are not familiar with that activity (most aren’t!), it’s kind of like “professional” marching band in the summer from late June to early August. Corps are based all around the US - two major ones are in Illinois, the Cavaliers from Rosemont and the Phantom Regiment from Rockford. The groups tour the country via motorcoach, ending up in Indianapolis for the world championships the second weekend of August.
The groups used to own their own buses back in the day (70s, 80s, into the 90s). Most were MCI but one corps from Cali had a nice fleet of Eagle Model 5s. Anyway, these corps have largely gone to using charter coaches all summer. Group sizes are limited to three coaches and they generally have 2-4 tractor-trailers for equipment including a mobile kitchen. Most groups have RVs (including motorcoach chassis models) for staff. It’s quite a rolling convoy when a drum corps show comes to town!
After they perform a show, they typically travel through the night to their next housing/practice site (usually a high school) or show city. They often leave around midnight and arrive in the next location maybe 4a- 6a. Some days they stay at their practice site and don’t travel. I’ve always wondered how the drivers get their rest since the corps rarely stay in hotels. I don’t know if you have any connections to people with familiarity of the transportation side of drum corps, but it has a significant motorcoach angle that touches on a lot of your topics. If nothing else, it might be interesting to you!
Trailways system here, since 95 (Oh I have stories!) ...sometimes night driving is cool due to lighter traffic, cooler temps, overall quiet. Rest is the factor here. Sometimes difficult to sleep daytime for the night run. Listening device or good conversation with that passenger that can't sleep are great options. JUST PULL OVER at the rest/truck stop. On a single run who cares how much you stop as long as you get there safely.
I looooove night drives! As long as I'm done by 7am the latest and in my hotel room before rush hour traffic.
Night drives are great, everyone is sleeping, it's nice and quiet, no traffic, open highway, I stop at the border for passenger inspection then make one stop half way through the night for 30 minutes and that's it!
I love leaving Toronto at 9:30pm and dropping off my passengers in New York City at 5am and then having the whole day off!
I applaud your honesty and courage. I drove cross country for 40 years as an owner operator, in the household goods industry. I experience all the things you described. The external pressures to get the job done, never stops, but it is up to you, the driver, to do the correct thing. When your income is dependent on performance, despite incidents beyond your control, you must fight yourself, not to fall into the trap. Today’s technology and recording devices are more your friend, than your enemy. Recording technology, when being coerced are golden and I believe should be used to protect you and your family. If you let it happen, recordings can’t fix the outcome of the accident, when you succumb to the pressure. I logged over 3 millions from 1970-2010, and at 80 yrs old i miss the road, but don’t think i could deal with the stupid rule changes of the playing field of today. Keep up the good work. George🇺🇸
Good one James,I tried everything,open windows,music,even two fisting a red bull and a full throttle,was a big problem in the trucking industry also.
Why do motor coach drivers only get 8 hours off and truck drivers get 10 hours off? Thanks
Well done, as usual. Having worked with any number of drivers with little or no long distance, night driving experience, I always try to leave them with a thought to keep in mind. As there seems to be a common mindset that "I can do this just like anyone else can", combined with the desire to prove personal value, many will push themselves to the "scare" point you spoke of. I remind them that logic and common sense tell you that EVERY driver who fell asleep at the wheel and drove off the road, THOUGHT he could go a bit farther.
As far as the companies and passengers are concerned it’s magic.
I have a question.....Hello James.... is it ok... or normal procedure for a coach employer to state ....That you are not allowed to use the restroom while driving four to six hours? I thought it was extreme. Thank you!
The constructive way to state your conclusion is to compare it to changes made in the past that WERE ridiculous in hindsight, as in doctors recommending the best cigarette. In the future we'll all say there was a time when we thought it was ok to load a coach with 70 children and have the driver take them OVERNIGHT to their destination so that the organizers could save on one night's lodging for the 70 children. Stupid, wasn't it?
So many times I’ve done thru the night charters and have struggled occasionally but I’ve actually had problems during the daylight hours as well. For me it all boils down to, the more I look at the clock and see the sleep time ticking away the more I panic. And when that sets in it’s in my head and I’m done. Im retired and this is my part time job so I’m real selective with the jobs they offer me so I don’t put myself in those situations very often.
Arriving at lodging in a "shady part of town" on a multi coach move , I asked the clerk if I had a room mate. He asked, "do you want one?" I was too tired to understand the hint.
Before I started working in transportation, I was traveling on a Greyhound overnight trip between St Louis and Chicago. There were so many passengers they had to provide 2 extra buses. When we were crossing the bridge into East St Louis, I noticed how deep the driver's voice was. It was kinda like he came to work straight from bed.
About 90 minutes later, everyone on the bus was asleep when all of the sudden the rumble strip on the shoulder woke us all up. The driver managed to get the bus back on the road, but from that point until we got to the station in Chicago, I couldn't and wouldn't go back to sleep. That incident was etched in my being and when I did some overnight trips as a bus driver, I made sure that what happened to that Greyhound driver would not happen to me. I thank God for keeping me alert and my passengers safe.
When I dispatched trips that required mid route reliefs, I tried to pad the relief driver's time as much as I could without overspending the company's money. So I was required to make sure the relief driver had 8 hrs off duty, but if I could stretch it out to 10 or even 12 hours off, I did, especially if I knew he was going to have a ling day once he took over. It was necessary for me to have the groups itinerary so I could plan accordingly. There were trips that I had to have a third driver because the relief driver would have run out of hours. I was blessed to have a third driver available who was waiting for another group to take home, but since he still had another day to wait for them, I just used him to spell the relief driver long enough to stay within his legal hours of service. These groups never factor driver safety in their planning Fortunately my plan didn't cost the company nor the client any extra money
I don't feel right driving my car overnight. Even with (allegedly) getting proper rest. I cannot imagine the challenge of doing the same with a bus or truck. Be safe out there.