Customer furious with me - Failed Trim Install
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- Опубліковано 15 бер 2022
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A true professional always stands behind their work, awesome lesson Richard!
Since he stopped using DeWalt, he's never been the same man, Vince... 😟 😂
@@peterfitzpatrick7032 he’s a Dewaukita man! 🤣
Only Milwaukee for me Vince :)
@@VCGConstruction all about that green and black with 30 batteries
So true 📐
Just my 2 cents as a avid fine woodworker and someone who studies wood...tongue and groove lumber isn't made to caulk the joints. The designed intent of tongue and groove is to allow the natural and continual expansion and contraction of the wood. Also, if it is mostly flat sawn pine it is going to move ALOT and will continue to move throughout the year with seasonal changes unless the house is 100% climate controlled (temperature and humidity). If you ever get into building fine furniture or musical instruments as I do, you will quickly learn the grave consequences of not allowing for seasonal movement. Not to say you didn't here, but caulked joints of T and G will crack...period.
If it were me, I would have sanded all the boards, then primed and applied a very light single coat of topcoat to the tongue and groove edges. Then install, fill all holes, lightly sand, then final coat by hand to ensure not too much paint got in to the joint area. That way when the boards move you will always see white and you won't have the dreaded caulk crack.
Agree this will be a seasonal problem. Winter = heat = drying out, Summer = open windows = moisture = swelling. As stated, caulking is bad idea. In the summer, it's going to bulge and creep out and be even more noticeable. Only way to fix this is to float the T&G and let it move naturally, and as Benjamin states, paint it before you assemble so that when it does move, you don't see the bare wood underneath.
Best policy is to be upfront with homeowner about movement of natural wood and recommend a humidifier or dehumidifier depending on your climate. Wood should be acclimated and of proper humidity before install. Then prime/paint all sides in this case before install. If homeowner wants joints caulked, then be up front with them about the ramifications relating to movement/cracking. If they insist on caulking it have them sign a extra work order/waiver related to cracking & use the very best caulk you can for them. This way homeowner makes the decision and owns some of the responsibility. Good job standing behind your workmanship and accepting responsibility here
agreed seasonal problem pine will continue to contract and expand sorry to say no caulk at all to remedy it and tell homeowners in future this is why not to caulk
Wow... you don't know until ya know. Makes perfect sense. Thanks!!!
You have actually made a couple of good points well done 👏
The fact that you owned the mistake, fixed the error for the customer, and were willing to share this "fail", shows why you have nearly a half-million subscribers! Very classy, Brother!
Problem definitely not fixed
Sure it is....."pleasing to the eye"
I would hire you in a minute because you stand by your work
@@gregnixon5770 until it's not...again
@@atomjordan don't just act like you know all. Emphasize on to why the problems not fixed.
Yeah from my experience as a cabinet maker and finish carpenter you never caulk tongue and groove boards due to constant movement. Just because it has shrunk already it will expand again in the humid weather. Heat rises so the ceiling is the first to react. I would have pre painted each board so when it shrinks you don’t see the unpainted tongue. My two cents other than that I admire your work. It’s how we get better at what we do through our mistakes 🙂
Absolutely what I was going to say!: pre-prime (if it wasn’t) and two layers of topcoat w/ no caulk at all! It supposed to move. Then just touch up, clean up. Also, there is a caulk removal tool specific to this task, btw. Removes both sides of adhesion at once. Moisture check, or simply two weeks acclimation, always.
If you are an experienced cabinet worker why would you approve of this slop shod work much less praise it? This isn't a third grader doing a finger painting project. This is a man charging thousands of dollars for jobs that he isn't qualified for. And he has conned these people to let him do thousands of additional work.
In your years of work where was it when you were taught to jam and squeeze wood together to tighten joints? I'm sorry but people keep encouraging these "youtubers" without realizing who may end up paying because of misplaced "reviews".....
@@dennisdoes86He’s back correcting it for free isn’t he?
@@t-rex4211 i suppose he is. But why do customers have to call and be further inconvenienced because it wasn't done right the first time? Kudos to him going back.
You are 100% correct that's how it's done , same as shaker style doors we spray the panel before assembly for the same reason
You've got integrity brother, that's why you're successful.
He's got tegrity
b
@@galvanizedgnome Tegridy! Thinkin the same thing. We had some roller doors installed by a company called integrity roller doors. We had and issue and i can say they did actually deal with it with tegridy
he doesnt get a pat on the back for doing the right thing.
@@ScreamingEagleFTW especially because he didn’t do the right thing !
Huge respect man! I’ve been in construction my whole life, and it’s rare to see a contractor own up to their mistake, like you did. I’ve seen more fingers get pointed, than hands raised, that’s for sure.
Old canopener works good in the grooves
AGREE with everyone here. You fessed up, fixed the error, learned yourself and helped others like me.
Your ethics payed off. The customer kept you on the job and got you to keep working. Keep it up. We need more tradies like you
I love the absolute transparency in this. You do great work, and I think it’s really important for other contractors to see that it’s okay to make mistakes throughout the process. Awesome stuff.
If it were me, I'd spray the boards with one coat of paint before installation. Install, nail, no caulk, and a final spray. This way, as the boards expand and contract, you won't see any bare wood in the gaps - and no caulk to fail. I made a barn door using this technique and it still looks great.
Yup... This! Imho anyway. To each their own I guess tho. 👍👍
This is the way.
This won't stop the boards from shrinking and showing gaps (and looking like shiplap). The caulk avoids this.
@@Rocadamis you don’t get it. It’s ok.
@@c_mac7773 What is it that I don't get?
Lot’s of respect for you for not only standing behind the work, but for also pointing it out to everyone so it hopefully saves someone else the pain of having the same thing happen.
The customer obviously respects your work as they had you back to do more of it. Awesome final product!
Does he realize how cool he is?
@Perky B he's a Marine, of course he knows. The only difference is that most Marines let everyone know constantly until the Army comes in, then they get silent.
@@perkyb1213 I don’t think this young man has any hubris at all. He’s one of the most professional person’s on UA-cam, if not the most. In fact when I first saw the headline, I thought he was just joking.
@@lolaottinger3038 I could not agree more in that Richard is one of if not thee most humble AND talented professionals I’ve ever seen, not only on UA-cam, but in person. I too thought it was another joke he is known for when I saw the title.
@Justin Reilly Silent but Deadly! OOORAH
It’s tough when you have to do a redo. I know the feeling. But the client deserves the best.
Good on ya for posting this vid.
As a small contractor eating a repair goes way further on your reputation then not taking care of the problem.
You’re a big man for posting this to UA-cam.
Kudos.
Honesty, dedication and a love for your work is what makes a great professional. Love how you owned it and corrected it with some hint of humor as well. You're a great example to follow.
Everybody makes mistakes....It's how we learn and get better. You stand by your work and fix problems when they occur, its all that can be asked for
It's not really a 'mistake', it's one of the real-world realities of working with real wood. Better preparation may have prevented it, absolutely. I have to wonder if those open joints close back up when humidity levels rise..
@@Matasky2010 RIGHT?! The whole time I could not help but think how a "professional" sounds so amature.
Why did he even caulk the seams to begin with? These panels are supposed to be installed without caulking to allow for continuous movement of the panels. They will ALWAYS expand and contract for their life because of temperature, humidity, suppport movement, etc. The whole idea of panel joinery like this is to accomendate for wood movement. It allows free movement of the panels WITHOUT a mechanical or glue fastener holding panel to panel together.
T&G, shiplap, etc... is all trending right now and purely installed for looks. However, most have forgotten its how walls were made for centuries to account for wood movement. I see it all too much these self-employeed custom trim workers dont know the basics of woodworking & carpentry. They rely so much on ready-made products and high-end tools to do the work for them. Its more than slapping together a few boards together, hiding the nail holes, and using a "60 year caulk."
@@JustinRaymondUtah Most of your comment is foolishness, you're rambling on like some cranky old fart lol.
you could’ve not showed us this to keep your image that you never mess up but you showed us and we’re all glad mate, an honest hard working man👏🏼
Don't worry we all make mistakes , it's how we learn and rectify them good luck God bless
I would hire you in a second because you stood behind your work, fixed the problem and owned every bit of it. Great job
Thanks for sharing this I don't think folks in the real world that watch stuff on these platforms or TV think that the host has problems like this anymore and it shows even as highly skilled as you are this happened but you fixed it and that shows the professionalism and pride you take in your work as always great job great video
We installed some stained t&g 1x6 on several ceilings both indoor and outdoor. To avoid the “white line” when the boards stabilized we stained each board before it was installed.
That's a great tip
I was thinking paint before install.
Always stain or prime before installation, just dealt with this with a customer who didn't want to pay for prep, discussed the pitfalls but luckily they're using a clear oil so in the dry heat of summer they'll have maximum shrinkage to do the oil, no longer will i install without prepping but it was for a friend who was cheaping out.
What white line?
@@kizzjd9578 if you stain after installation and the boards shrink a bit you will see a line of unstained wood on the edges, not really white per say but natural wood color.
That's why I was taught that you always paint all sides of interior trim before installation. Even a quick shot of spray primer is an excellent vapor barrier and painting all sides would mitigate the shrinkage. At this point I would not even caulk them and let the joints shrink and expand on their own, and I think it would look cooler.
Roger that. I learned that lesson on a porch floor install, did not back prime had to remove and replace due to rot/mold issues.
Why did he even caulk the seams to begin with? These panels are supposed to be installed without caulking to allow for continuous movement of the panels. They will ALWAYS expand and contract for their life because of temperature, humidity, suppport movement, etc. The whole idea of panel joinery like this is to accomendate for wood movement. It allows free movement of the panels WITHOUT a mechanical or glue fastener holding panel to panel together.
T&G, shiplap, etc... is all trending right now and purely installed for looks. However, most have forgotten its how walls were made for centuries to account for wood movement. I see it all too much these self-employeed custom trim workers dont know the basics of woodworking & carpentry. They rely so much on ready-made products and high-end tools to do the work for them. Its more than slapping together a few boards together, hiding the nail holes, and using a "60 year caulk."
Primer is not a moisture barrier.
@@JustinRaymondUtah 100% correct. Im a high end painter for 40 years. Same with paneled wood doors.
@KickingTheLion Possibly. Not if you don't use latex primer
So nice to see this wasn't clickbait, and even nicer to see that you owned it and fixed it. We need more UA-camrs and contractors like you! Thanks for sharing :)
IKR, I stared at the title for a bit before clicking, BECAUSE I thought it was click bait. I'm glad it was true to the title and he was true to owning up to it.
This is why I use mdf V-groove or beadboard sold in 4x8 or 4x12 sheets for my new installs instead of individual pine boards (mostly custom designs by Nantucket Beadboard). The climate here in Massachusetts fluctuates too wildly through the seasons and pine is incredibly sensitive. Poplar is a little better but still produces similar problems.
Smart.
I’m also in MA, but not a finish carpenter. I run a CNC wood working shop. I was approached by a guy who wanted raised panel doors for a kitchen build, but he wanted them made from MDF, which I thought was strange. They came out great and once they were sealed with BIN primer, you couldn’t even tell they were MDF.
That ceiling is absolutely beautiful. Do you know how nice it is to see a man with integrity like yours take care of business/customers/people. ❤️
This is impractical and expensive for 99.9 percent of people. Shiplap should not be painted the bridging of paint is bound to crack over time and look very bad.
"Beautiful"?? Did you see the AC register location and scabbed on board?? I cannot believe a customer this fussy would let that go when there are far more alternatives. BUT, this is a finish framing channel and not an HVAC channel I guess...
Much respect buddy! Humble in both success AND failure is an amazing show of strong character and integrity! It is very nice to see and you're still the best out there!
Refreshing to see a company stand behind their work and potential problems. Thanks for being transparent and explain the issue. It looks great!
Agreed. Respect for putting up the errors and lessons learned. I wish more professionals were open about their mishaps.
I really appreciate you showing your rare failures. Makes me feel better about myself ;)
I just experienced the same... Remodeled my apartment last year. Because of covid, I was having a tough time finding baseboard. Either they didn't have what I wanted or they were in short supply and I couldn't buy enough to complete the entire job. Anyway, finally found what I was looking for in unfinished pine. Because of the wasted time looking for the baseboard, I was behind schedule. Bought them, brought them in and the next day they were installed then painted. Few months later, all my corners were opened a 1/8 inch. Looked like I didn't know what I was doing the day I installed. Bugged me like hell everytime I saw it. I was embarrassed to have people over...
Finally got it fixed.
Not the way I like to work, but sometimes you've got to learn the hard way.
Thanks again for the video. I love your work and work ethic.
I've ran into the same issue and have since been allowing my material to acclimate for a week and also started using a better quality caulking! Sucks to get a call back but owning it is what most customers look for!
Ive learned to buy HEAVY caulk. Regardless of brand, most stuff at home centers is crap. You have to get the good stuff from suppliers and its all noticeably HEAVY.
I've also found that if there's a complaint on my work, I try to get there the next day!!! Or the same day or late in the evening is ok with everyone! And push the job your on to get it fixed,,, if possible!!
@@stevehamman4465 just make the customer feel like they are being taken care of not taken advantage of works always and own up to a mistake
Richard, such a breath of fresh air to see another business owner showing and owning their own mistake. Awesome fix Sir, and great job standing behind your work! Shows pride in yourself, as well as your work!
The good stuff is that you honored your commitment to the customer! That's actually waaaaaay better than "good"! Thank you for sharing!
I appreciate seeing the fails and solutions that even skilled professionals make. It ain’t all roses and sunshine. It gives your channel some authenticity to it. Keep up the good work (and the fails)!
I really admire you for publicly pointing out this "failure" and owning it! It gives others some real life lessons in doing a job the proper way. Good on you! Love your channel, keep it up! Cheers!
Thanks for this video! Last year , I installed new door trim in all my living room doors. They have all cracked at the wall and trim seam. I blamed the caulking! Thinking back on it, I remember that I had installed the trim the same day after buying the trim. This makes sense now! Thanks! I'm definitely letting any wood products acclimate before I install them in the future. 😀
My friend - we had exactly this problem in our sunroom in Charlotte. Totally feel your pain! Love the way you owned this. Says a lot.
I like the spacing on the ceiling boards. I usually do an 1/8" reveal on trim like that.
I do too you can see the detail better
We paint quite a few t&g ceilings. Best practice is to prime back & edges before install if possible but NEVER caulk any of the grooves! Hope I’m wrong but I’m afraid you might be back!
No he will be back because we both know what’s going to happen!
100%, t&g designed to allow for seasonal movement. Caulking is certainly not recommended at any cost. Unfortunately he will be back but not to re-caulk.
Agree. If I were going to caulk anything like this I would use something along the lines of loxon masonry caulk. It’s a urethane based product, definitely harder to work with but is head and shoulders above any traditional acrylic caulk and I think runs under $6.00 at SW. Obviously paintable too.
You are 100% correct . Should never ever caulk. Hence the t&g design. That's the sole purpose of the design to not show seasonal movement
He still hasn’t learned his lesson.
I've been a carpenter for 36 yrs and still learning!
Glad to see you're standing behind your work. I don't think I would ever caulk the seems though expand and retract is what wood does. Especially if the humidity in the house isn't controlled year round.
I live in Australia in a region where during Winter we get severe frosts & in Summer it gets into the 40's (105ish ). Anytime a client asks me to do ceilings like this I warn them about the probability of expansion & contraction due to extreme temperature changes. If they still insist on getting it done then I get them to sign a waiver for any cracking that may occur after 1 cycle of Summer & Winter. The problem with caulking (as you eluded to) is there's always the possibility when the timber does shrink the caulking pulls itself apart no matter how good it is. Having said that I always open the packs of timber & spread them out around the house on racks for about 3 weeks to get acclimatized before install.
Stay safe, have a great day 👍🏼🦘
You sound like east coast he sounds like west coast
Strong work!! As a business owner for over 20 years, the easiest thing I can do (and most painful) is to own my failures and correct them, no matter what that takes. Thankfully, we have not had many, but they do happen. Your owning this, only builds your credibility and ethics. I have found that the cost of owning and correcting mistakes is out shadowed by the future business it generates. You are a true professional.
I think you should consider a switch to MDF matchboard for this look in future. Even if you had acclimatised the wood (was that even practical) you could still expect some seasonal opening and closing. MDF matchboard is available in UK in 8'x4' sheets
MDF and route the grooves
Yes, 100%. Even with the wood painted and caulked and sealed, wood will move with seasonal humidity fluctuations. The tongue & groove joint in this application allows for that expansion/contraction to occur without problems, so maybe think about leaving out the caulk next time if you do chose wood again. (Just suggesting, not trying to be annoying! 😬😅)
More importantly, MAN I appreciate your integrity! It seems so hard to find people who own their mistakes, but when they do, and make it right, I respect them more than if they hadn't made the mistake in the first place🙂. Your passion and desire to do good are what make me love your channel! 👍
1/2 MDF screwed to the joists will move?
Yeah I would not take this job if they wanted seamless wood forever it is impractical.
yup Moisture-Resistant MDF .
You have earned the maximum respect, Richard. God bless you!
I always appreciate a man who admits to his mistakes very difficult to find. Great video and great job
Total transparency in workmanship,builds bigger trust with clients. project looks outstanding and thank you for sharing with this video.
Being honest is a key, not many people has it. You got my respect
Excellent video. I would have considered skipping the caulking altogether, once you had scraped out the old caulk. I've had the exact same experience on an entire church roof. My caulk was hanging like toothpaste after a year! The boards will expand and contract over the seasons. The best paint I've found is Zinsser Allcoat Water Based - it's an exterior paint but I often use it indoors. 2 coats will happily bridge a 2mm gap.
Glad to see the true honesty of someone who stands behind what they do for a living, awesome!
Dude that is a bummer. At least you understand the issue. Thanks for sharing the problem and the solution as well as standing behind your work. Good job.
you never caulk tounge and groove boards,they have to expand and contract just like shiplap is the same way
thats the whole purpose of the tounge and groove system
The whole point of the tongue and groove system is to have a great hold without having visible nail holes. You can toe nail it and hide all nails.
Yeah but the home owner probably asked to have them caulk
@@therealryufromjapan3051 Then I would have explained to the homeowner that that is not a good idea. If they insisted, I would let them know that there will be no warranty when the caulking fails.
Mistakes happen. What's great is you are owning up to it and fixing it for your customer.
Exactly. You’re a class act.
It’s the carpenters that leave it for someone else to fix that give us good carpenters a bad name. Everyone makes mistakes, it’s how you handle these mistakes which make you a good carpenter.
It's not a mistake.
So great to see someone standing behind their workmanship. You didn’t try to blame it on anyone but you. Good on you to point out the problem and solution.
I really appreciate your honestly and transparency. Own your mistakes and learn from them. That’s a success.
You’re a real pro, my friend.
I’ve never had more respect for a man I’ve never met before. You’re such a great guy, carpenter, and businessman. The pride you take in your work and insuring it is perfect is admirable. 💛
A woman have respect for a man? Now that is rare.
@@rbfarrell1 you’ve been around the wrong women 😞
@@valeriewhite7917 I don't hang around with them. I just see it everyday. But it is ok I am use to it.
Why even caulk the grooves? I think it would look better leaving the natural groove
Yeah, I agree... it looks better without the caulk imo.
Definitely thinking the same thing. If you caulk and paint it why even use real wood, probably better to use a PVC or MDF product.
My thoughts exactly! Looks better without the caulk!!
👍
Na....looks better caulked. Instead of different sized gaps. I’m a painter, if it looked better without it we wouldn’t do it.
I LOVE that you chose to show a failure and correction. Speaks volumes to your credibility!
A good honest assessment, accepting responsibility for your work. This says everything about your integrity. When you got your hands on that lumber you were probably lucky to even get, while paying a premium at the same time. Lesson learned. Every builder creates a learning error at some point-it’s how you address it that matters most.
I think it looks better with the gap. Give the ceiling more definition. I have had great success with a caulk from Lowes called Big Stretch made by Sashco.
I would have left with gap also. Caulking that gap will not last forever it is going to crack again, because those boards are going to expand and contract every year with a change in seasons. Not as much as this initial shrink and some more than others. Kind of surprise they did not leave them as simulate to the houses environment at least for 24 hours, it says it right in the instructions and any other real wood product like flooring says that also.
Big stretch is an amazing product, but I still agree with the comment above. Expansion and contraction. Especially the area you live. Even when showed the finished product, how couldn’t you be happy. Precision alone
Agree
I agree, don't caulk v-match! Just don't. And also, any caulk made by sashco is excellent, in my experience. And lexel I like too.
Yes. And don’t fool yourself - I don’t care what the manufacturer’s guarantee is - that stuff is going to crack. Wood moves.
I was told when I first started "it's not how many mistakes you make that makes a good carpenter its how you take care of the ones you do make" still true 20 years later. I like no excuses just fixed it.
I greatly respect you for being honest and showing this. You didn’t have to. It makes me respect you even more
A true man of Integrity that holds himself accountable and is humble. Outstanding Work!!!
As a builder I’ve been running into this a lot. Primed material seems to help some. Also a furnace humidifier helps keep the moisture content a little higher. We’re in a drought up here in the Texas Panhandle and are getting a lot of movement in our trim and lumber. It’s cool to see you stand behind your work! Keep it up.
Just trying to understand this issue more - does the temperature factor in here as well from season to season? Or is the biggest factor the moisture like the in the vid and your situation?
you know its bad when materials from suppliers are coming in oversprayed/run's/Damaged from application of prime factory coat ...before your painter etc even get to it...what's worse is 90 percent of the product is coming from China.
@@jonathanburr9798 Wood swells and shrinks based on humidity levels inside and outside the wood. Temperature is not a good indicator of moisture. In the summer it's hot & dry in some areas or hot & humid. In houses air conditioners tend to shrink wood by removing moisture. I believe that's what happened in his ceiling. The combination of wide t&g and a well built tight house with a good ac system will shrink that wood.
For paint grade work up high like crown, coffered ceiling or accent walls MDF is always my first choice. It's not susceptible to moisture movement, plus I'll use some glue to attach the material to substrate. Going on two decades and never had a call back.
I've been working in a large apartment complex doing remodels on their units for the past couple years. The company I work for has been tearing out old finger jointed pine base & replacing it with a bigger MDF product at this property for over 5 years. We get called into units every month after move outs for warranty work & joints that were once tight are often gapped 1/8" or more all over the place! The base gets stored in a high moisture underground garage for about a month before it gets moved up into the unit on the day of install. Based on what I've seen, I don't think MDF is any more resistant to acclimation than Pine. Tbh I think it might be worse. None of the pine we're tearing out from 20+ years ago is gapped like the MDF we installed just last year is! I suppose it could just be the installers 😂, but I'm not so sure.
@@GreenOne01 I'd never use mdf for casing or base, it's too easily damaged/ dented. It's wood only for those areas, plus trim install doesn't start until dehumidifier/air conditioning is on and material is there for like 10-14 days minimum.
@@GreenOne01 I have seen some pretty terrible movement with MDF trim, nickel gap ceiling, crown, base. I believe they also did not acclimate the trim prior to install and MDF will move on the length if its not properly acclimated.
@@GreenOne01 I'm sure you would have the same issue with pine/fir/poplar or any wood stored in high humidity. Apartment complexes also aren't know for climate control in the units.
1 MILLION likes just for owning up to this AND for posting this on you tube to show your errors and fixing them!!! Thank you because your errors are learning points for me! Integrity, problem solving, and transparency. My kind of work ethic! 💪🏼
1 million ?
Thank you sir for your honesty, you show your professionalism through overcoming adversity than through success.
Wasn't a mistake, it was a learning curve, good lesson! Beautiful job, and your a honest craftsman!
It's a mistake as he recaulked it. Never should have been done in the first place.
Lol - I love it. All that work and money and that ceiling has a huge return grill in it, lol.
Truthfully if that wood is like flooring and if the home owners open their windows I can see those boards expanding some and the shrinking again. Good luck with that. Hopefully the home owners move soon.
These Homeowners will reap there own karma LOL
Kind of nice to see a carpenter showing how you're learning and growing as you go :) I've also done jobs some years ago that I would do different now.
You have respect for your work and your clients are the most important thing, you're a professional.
I highly doubt they were furious with you, more like you noticed the ceiling during the install of the wainscot and asked if you could fix it. such a nice guy. They like your work.
I don’t think Richard did this installation; can’t anybody see that he would not make this mistake but that it was probably a worker of his?
Interesting, I’ve always resisted caulking this type of situation in the past, looks like for good reason!
It's not meant to be caulked
Agreed.
In Massachusetts painting company caulked all the kitchen cabinet doors and they look like shit. Had to go in and build new doors. Hopefully they don’t caulk it again
Same. I avoid caulking this. Anything that gets caulked becomes a maintenance item
Knowing where, and when the appropriate time to rub your caulk on things is paramount.
Caulk and paint makes you what you ain't.
Dude, I had the same thing happen before for the EXACT same reason and I suspect that I have a 3 season room that I did last year doing that right now. I'm scared to check on it or bring it up because the customers are still happy with it. The fact that you are fixing it as all good cantractors do helps us all. Keep up the good work.
Nice to see your face- hear your professionalism & humility/integrity
I was always told as a young contractor that there are two constants when pouring concrete. The first is the concrete truck is always late and the second is concrete will always crack!
In my opinion, hard to keep that from happening. They expand and contract with the seasons. I have a 2800 sf house built in 1910. We installed new T&G on ceilings throughout. Boards were allowed to acclimate to house for weeks prior to install. Every ceiling looks like that 5 years later.
Beautiful work. Your client is lucky to have you for a contractor. This is a very common problem where I live. The main reasons are the lumber and the caulking. The house will always expand and contract over the seasons and when the heater or ac goes on. I have recently switched over to the big stretch. In my professional opinion, it works better than anything I have tried over the years and I am old. Always make sure the caulking is dry before you paint it. If not, the same thing will happen. If you got the caulking off that easy, it is a safe bet that it was a caulking failure. Thanks for the video. It is a must watch for anyone.
Excellent work. Everyone makes mistakes, and you did right when something happened. Appreciate that you chose to share this.
As a fellow professional I am proud you owned and repaired this. I am glad you learned a bit about the characteristics of wood. They should have been in the house for 2 weeks, AND painted before you put the up, 1 coat, that way when they do expand and contract you wont see it. Secondly painting it on the sealing puts a top coat over the whole thing. and when it moves it will crack. I am also surprised you caulked them? I would have never done that ever. BUT I am glad you cleaned it up for the customer
Ceiling
Thinking maybe you have been using mdf trim so long, you forgot that wood moves. I'd have at minimum, pre finished the t&g boards prior to install. Anyways, good on you for fixing it. Silicone caulk stretches like a gum band.
We all mess up and to own your shit speaks volumes on what kind of carpenter you are. Good shit bro. I have 30 years in the trade and this is a good example to others on how to man up.
You are a true professional, not only did you except responsibility you have demonstrated how a Trades person should behave, Brilliant.
I had a similar situation with a customer who decided after his ceiling was installed that he wanted a whitewash finish. Thankfully I warned him at the time that the boards would shrink as they dried out which they of course did. I got called back asking for a price to re-paint the ceiling which we were able to do fairly cheap. Lesson learned, you're a good man to stand behind your work. I wish all contractors were that way!
And the boards will continue to shrink and expand - at least they do in my 45+ years wooden house. I just repaint the cracks again and again :-)
I personally would never caulk T&G because it will always move. Making the sections in one piece out of MDF by rotoring V grooves into them would be far better and probably save a lot of labour on site.
MDF moves much more than solid wood, and in BOTH directions. I've seen it grow as much as half an inch in a 16ft long board. Regardless of what people say, MDF is NOT a stable product for trim work.
It's the same reason when I'm specing cabinetry and they want paint, I only spec one piece HDF doors because a 5 piece will shrink and swell no matter what and cause hairline cracks at every joint.
@@AlAmantea Solid wood will grow/contract a lot more than 1/2" over 16ft if that measurement is across the width/grain of the boards. The point of MDF is that it grows equally in all directions, not at different rates along and across the grain, so if you make an assembly of MDF the entire thing will grow/contract equally in all directions and therefore no gaps open up.
I agree . That wood expands and contracts . Dont caulk that!
Ooooooooooohhhhhhhhhh !!!!!!!😆😆
It takes a big person to own up to their mistakes. With loads of videos only showing the positives, as a self employed tradesman, it's great to see a more realistic one. Makes me feel better for all my mistakes! Thanks from the UK!
being a real professional encompasses admitting, owning and resolving your errors.... i'd hire you based on how you handled this situation even setting aside your evident gorgeous work ! well done and thanks for the informative video... i'm sure it will help many learn.
Richard, I'm curious to know whether you stand behind caulking the cracks, as opposed to painting each piece individually, fitting tongues into grooves, and THEN installing them. I.e. with a consistent visible crack and where continued movement of the wood is to be expected. (like this is the approach to doors, isn't it? You glue some joints, you wax others, expecting the pieces to move but to stay together)
Calking is fine when it comes to construction using masonry materials but when it comes to wood the issues arises with expansion.
Exactly what I was going to say, why caulk the join?
Depending on what kind of humidity or moisture is present I'd say it could possibly happen again. Personally I would not use caulk in this kind of situation.
This is exactly what happens to hardwood floors even if the wood is dry. The change in temperature and humidity from summer to winter causes each board to shrink or expand a tiny amount. Let's assume each board changes by 1/32" between seasons. Not a big deal but when you add up the number of boards lined up side by side across the floor.....that tiny number could end up being a couple of inches. If you had 64 boards that means 2". That's why you see gaps in the winter.
And if that ceiling has attic space above? That makes if even more difficult to control the contraction issue.
My fathers kitchen has an contracting issue. But it's seasonal (he was aware of this before install). In the winter season the ceiling contracts and can see tons of cracks, by summer time it "swells" back to normal and looks absolutely mint with no nasty cracks in sight!
With that in mind, you might get a call back to remove excess caulk being pushed out of the cracks. Fingers crossed that won't be the case, keep up the good work!
Yes sir it's good you stand behind your work. I'm a finish carpentry here in Texas also and you are correct about the lumber having moisture and then shrinking iv had the same issue several times especially during spring in Texas. I had a builder one time that would buy all the trim an put it in the garage with no door on it and it would fill up with moisture and even when I would tell him he would say put it up iv had crown pull off the celling and walls before an fall down because it shrunk so bad. It happens
Nice video. How long do you anticipate the caulking will last in those 1/8" gaps? Asking as I have a similar project.
Like he said he's hoping for 60yrs! Don't go cheap on your project, get the best quality caulk you can. Honestly, high-end caulk isn't that much more expensive & digging out old caulk is a major drag.
@pyguy. Duhhhh.....???? 60 years there Goober. Try watching the video and pay attention.
Try using BigStretch caulk.
Pre-paint and don't caulk. I would not caulk the tongue and groove joint. The reason for the tongue and groove is so you don't see the discrepancies when the wood moves. It's wood, it's going to move. Even in a controlled environment, heating seasons and cooling seasons do not produce the exact same moisture/humidity levels. When you use caulk, a better caulk like Big Stretch helps, but this is not the place for caulk.
It's not your fault - timber, particularly pine, is anything but stable. I was in the Architectural profession in Australia for my entire working life and I have never seen a vee-jointed ceiling where the joints don't open and close. Doesn't matter if it has a clear finish but it's trouble with a painted finish. You have done everything right but unless the material is in a stable environment it's going to move. You obviously have no control over the environment once you leave so I hardly see how you can be blamed.
I mean, technically, he did not do *everything* right. Millwork should always be acclimated to wherever it’s being installed.
He chooses to skip this step because it suits his workflow to pickup/install materials in the same day.
If he had materials delivered & allowed time to acclimate, this would not be as big an issue.
@@ffbuilders8139 You're right of course but no amount of acclimating is going to prevent movement if the environment where it's installed isn't stable. Obviously we have no idea what the conditions are like in this instance but I would argue - why take the risk with something that may give trouble? I would much rather see a flat panel anyway.
Glad you mentioned moisture meter. Did not know these existed. Here I’d thought Windsor wood would be dry or low moisture level. Thanks for bringing this error out!
Definitely acknowledge you . Been learning from you about two years . Still new to the field and learning from my mistake respect the common courtesy to go back in fix it. Blessing
It very well may just happen again. Wood can continue to absorb and expel moisture indefinitely. Summertime - air moisture is up, boards absorb moisture and swell. Wintertime - air moisture is way down, boards expel moisture and shrink. Unless the house is meticulously climate-controlled, those boards are gonna move, it’s inevitable.
That was going to be my comment too... it looks like the ceiling to a 3-seasons room. Climate control in the space and the temperature buffer to the roof above those boards probably sucks. If you're using 6" wide natural wood, it IS going to move. That's exactly why some tables use bread-board ends. An engineered product is the only way to avoid joints opening up. Painting it white was also a mistake IMO. I would have left it natural wood or painted it black, then those expansion joints would practically disappear
NEVER INSTALL THIS MUCH “Tree Wood” UNTIL THE HVAC SYSTEM IS UP AND RUNNING AND THE SPACE IS DRIED OUT. JUST LIKE FLOORING IT SHOULD ALSO BE GIVEN TIME TO ACCLIMATE TO THE SPACE
I MANUFACTURE CUSTOM MILLWORK AND THIS IS A BASIC WARNING
Learned that years ago on Nantucket.
Good on you for making it right for the customer! We all make mistakes sometimes. It's all in how you deal with them. This is what integrity looks like. 👍👍
Thanks for the honest vid. Repairing mistakes and learning from experience produces master craftsman. Wanna buy that T-Shirt please add to store.
I'm a professional painter , it kills me when I have to cut out cheap caulk that fails every time. The crazy thing is that really good caulk costs less then a dollar more .
What’s some really good caulk that you’d recommend
@@MyVictoriaMarie we use Sherwin Williams, for stair cases or around fire place mantels use SW elastic , even the SW that is Paintable in 30 min is very good for ceiling lines, returns, and base boards . Even the name brand paint from Sherwin Williams, Benjamin Moore and PPG are less than $20 from the cheap home depot/ Lowes paint. I hope that helps
I have never, in decades, seen caulking used on T&G joints and I'm totally baffled by the logic of doing it to begin with. In my thinking the moisture content of the wood had everything to do with the shrinkage while the caulking had zero to do with the result and did not fail.
Did the customer ask for this? I have done many jobs with this stuff, I have never caulked it.
It's gonna keep cracking.
will 100% crack again. painting business owner, would never caulk that.
Big appreciation for the openness!
Respect standing by your work and going back and fixing this problem for your client. Im sure this is also giving you content for UA-cam and good press as far as standing by your work. All in all nice job and design pattern.
Just a quick question: is caulking even necessary. You know it's going to separate. And paint in itself is 'caulky'. Unless it's oil based. Just wondering about your thoughts on that. Tongue and groove was ( I thought) invented to allow expansion/contraction. Also, I wonder if the substrate (what the t&g is nailed to) didn't perform some of the separation and pull on things unevenly. Speculation only. And that makes me think that putting this up with flexible construction adhesive underneath wouldn't have provided some e&c coverage.
And the philosophical consideration, I don't think it looked unpleasant with NO caulking. Why have the definition of joints if you're going to fill them with caulk? My gosh. Looks very antiseptic when done.
You should never caulk wood like this. Prepaint everything and only caulk nail holes or knots. If you caulk a joint it will always separate and start falling out.
I hardly remember seeing you do much caulking on your joints like in your wainscoting. Aren’t all of them more prone to cracking? CA glue and plastic wood isn’t going to hold scarf joints for too long, for example.
Agreed. wood moves. and will keep moving. we NEVER caulk a wood/wood joint. Wood/drywall joints are better, but it still will. Just because you check it with a moisture meter has nothing to it. It will continue to pick up and evaporate moisture
@@diggingupnorth3453 you never caulk the wood/wood joint? Do you stick with just wood glue?
@@jgarehart89 Not a tight one, such as window trims. (or v-match). Window trims are all pocket screwed for wood/wood joints. If i do, (mostly exterior) I leave at least an 1/8 to fill in. Sashco has some great videos on how to get the caulking to stretch without cracking. If you butt wood together tight, in my experience, the caulking will always crack. I just re-read my comment and it came off as sounding like kind of a dick. Rich does great work and I have learned tons from his videos. You don't judge a carpenter by his mistakes, you judge him by how he fixes his mistakes. We've all made PLENTY
@@diggingupnorth3453 amen
you are 1 in a million---when you retire, you will know that you have walked the walk and fessed up to be the BEST if i was having a multi/multi-million dollar project going, you would be THE MAN to trim
thanx rick
Some of the most important lessons in life come from failure.
Thank you for sharing your lesson with us.