What are the Nameless Things | Middle Earth | The Lord of the Rings
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- Опубліковано 20 лип 2024
- Journey with me into the mysterious depths of Middle-earth as we explore the enigmatic Nameless Things. These ancient beings, mentioned briefly by Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings, have captivated the imaginations of Tolkien fans for decades. In this video, we'll delve into the few clues and theories surrounding these elusive creatures, seeking to understand their possible origins, nature, and connections to other aspects of Tolkien's vast world. Uncover the hidden secrets of Middle-earth's dark corners and join the discussion on the fascinating enigma of the Nameless Things.
Music: Scott Buckley @ScottBuckley
Thumbnail image: Michael Michera
#MiddleEarth #Tolkien #LordOfTheRings #thehobbit
00:00 Welcome
00:35 What Gandalf said
02:15 Are they evil?
03:53 Did Melkor create them?
06:12 The mystery deepens
07:51 Are they the ancestors of dragons?
08:54 Citing other writers
10:02 Last words... - Розваги
When a master musician starts to tune their instrument, before the structure of the music itself, there are old, nameless sounds... unholy creaking of worn leather cases, disfigured and discoloured metal hinges, the unintentional scraping of finger over string. With an entire orchestra tuning, believe me, many nameless things are created, none intended to be part of the performance.
Perfect analogy 👏🏼
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Poetic
I am the world's only electric didgeridoo player.
@@MYJEWISHLAMPSHADES I am the world's only acoustic theremin player. In other words I just whistle and wave my hands.
I think they're meant to be more incomprehensible than malevolent. Gandalf's might have felt uneasy talking about them out of fear. And it's plausible that if Sauron didn't know these things, Gandalf didn't either and he may just fear what he doesn't know.
Gandalf knew of them but has never seen proof of them in arda.
The amount of head-canon people have created for these is kind of hilarious. The way they are explained reads more like earth worms creeping and slinking about rather than gargantuan monsters.
@@johns1625 If it was that.... insignificant, why would Gandalf even mention their existence?
I suspect Gandalf doesn't wany Sauron to know about them. "Keep it secret" and all that.
It was 1000 years after the fall of Sauron a local taxonomist ventured into passageways and gave names to the nameless things. Unfortunately he got lost trying to make his way back out and the names were lost along with him. Legend has it there’s a notepad down there still with all the names of the nameless things still on it.
Sounds like a movie plot where adventurers would want to get that notepad for fame and take any gold along the way for themselves.
"Middle Earth: Book of the Nameless."
Little known fact: That taxonomist was HP Lovecraft's earliest traceable ancestor: Howardius Philipium Lovecraftus. His son Howardius Philipium Lovecraftus II was born 8 months after his ill-fated father's disappearance. :)
@@VVabsau onto something👀
“Phil”
The list:
Bob
Steve
Ligma
Josh
And berry
I believe The Watcher in the water from Fellowship Of The Ring could be one of these nameless things. Tolkien never gave us an origin of The Watcher and the fact it was in the water outside Moria could mean there are underwater tunnels leading from the depths of the earth to the surface and that is where the Watcher came from among those Nameless Things.
Yes, that is a possibility. But it went for Frodo the ringbearer 1st.
It wasn't said in any explanation if it was under Sauron's control or the One ring attracted it to Frodo?
Gandalf also theorized that it came from beneath the mountains, which supports this conclusion
the watcher was a kraken, created in utumno by melkor
@@SalvaTheGod81 The Silmarillion specifies that all of Morgoth's servants loathed and shunned the water and would only venture on the sea in dire need.
Doesn't check out.
That theory never did add up to me because you'd think Gandalf would have said so in his mention of them to Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli. If the Watcher was indeed one of these nameless things, why would they be so unspeakable when the three had already encountered one before? Just doesn't make sense to me.
Balrogs were specifically Maiar though, not some other kind of created being from before Arda. And what's really weird, is that the Nameless Things are said to be older than Sauron. This suggests maybe Sauron did not enter Arda at the very start.
Sauron was also created by the gods but he wasn't as powerfull as other Maiar, he was then corrupted by Morgoth when he started his petty revenge crusade. So while Sauron is really damm old, he is not older than Arda i believe
The Maier that were the Balrogs did not fall and they were not manipulated they actually chose to side with Melkor in the very beginning whereas at a later time Sauron was manipulated and he fell.... Sauron was with Aule and was subverted later... So I agree
Tom Bombadil says he was here before the dark lord “came from outside”. And Tom may be eldest(at least he claims so). He was here before the first acorn. So there’s plenty of time for the nameless things to have been there as early as Tom. Edited for grammar
There's one possibility you overlook:
During the song of the Ainur, they didn't know what they were creating, they just sang their themes. Melkor sang dissonance and brought chaos to the song of the Ainur, it could be possible that these nameless things were a byproduct of Melkor's dissonance during the song of the Ainur, and he would not know about it because they didn't know they were creating things.
On the topic of Melkor using the nameless things to create Dragons, I think that is very plausible, even with Sauron not knowing about it. Remember that Morgoth was also very covetous and paranoid, he kept secrets close. He knew dragons were his greatest creation, he surely would hide the secret of weaving dragons into being, even from his closest allies, so only him Melkor the Great would know how to make them. That's like saying that the Witch King would know how to create the One Ring because he's Sauron's Lieutenant. Powerful despots keep secrets for their power close to their chest.
So, in short: I don't think Melkor knew at the time of the song he was creating the Nameless Things, but he discovered them later when he dug really deep for Utumno or Angband, and then he used them to create dragons.
Edit: on a side note, I also think that the origin of Ungoliant is very similar to this. The dissonance and chaos from the song took shape in them even though they did not know they were creating an universe through that song.
Yes, I admit that I overlooked this possibility, especially since it is possible that Melkor kept the secret of how to make dragons. But you have explained it so well that I am not sorry that I missed it!
Really good theory
I think it's very well aluded to that Melkor could not create life, he could only corrupt it, I think it was a simple nod towards H.P lovecraft because if I recall it is said that the Valar did not know where ungoliant came from and that she was from the darkness itself and that she possibly was of the void itself.
It's a fairly common theme of entropy vs creation.
@@ExarchGaming HP Lovrcraft at the time was a low time american author, unknown writing pulp fiction for magazines. I really doubt professor Tolkien would have given a nod to him at that time.
As I said, Melkor could not create life, but the song of the Ainur channeled the power of Illuvatar. Eru was creating everything in the universe with the song as a framework, and in that song for for a while there was dissonance and chaos from Melkor, and that must have had an effect on the outcome of the music.
I though ungoliant was an outsider.
I tend to think of the nameless thing, Ungoliant, Tom Bombadil, etc as being something like elemental personifications. Tom is likely a personification of aspects of the natural world. Ungoliant is the personification of the Void (consuming even light, like a black hole), or maybe the very essence of hunger. So, maybe the nameless things are elemental representations of darkness, the unknown, or even fear itself.
That is brilliant.
Tom's wife?
Tom is Father Time and his wife is Mother Nature. That’s why he’s beyond the ring. Because he simultaneously lives before and after the rings existence
The monsters from the Id.
I believe these beings are from the Silence of the Void. Creatures of pure darkness and terror. The Nameless Things are beings like Ungoliant which Melkor could not control. So it baffles me that people think that Sauron could enslave these primordial creatures. Ungoliant was strong enough to kill Melkor and only fled after being swarmed by balrogs.
Those are some mighty strong statements. Ungoliant was able to overpower Morgoth (far past his prime as Melkor) once. Just so happened to occur when he is vastly diminished overall and also worn out in the moment after expending much force on their mission while simultaneously she happens to be peaking unlike any other time. Ungoliant is in the most powerful form she will, or conceivably could, ever be.
So, Ungoliant could defeat Morgoth (not Melkor at any point imo) at her absolute mightiest possible while he was near his weakest.
It was Morgoth, who isn't exactly renowned for his courage or self sacrifice, who approached Ungoliant and laughed as he boldly lied to her about his intentions of sharing. It was Melkor who ventured alone into the void. At her peak she was able to defeat a weakened Morgoth. At his peak Melkor was able to defeat all the other Valar..... Combined. The same Valar Ungoliant was very fearful of.
She needed perfect conditions to be able to defeat Morgoth. A being whos power grows as it consumes light could do worse than eating the equivalent of the sun and moon. Dont get much stronger than that...the very source of all light. (Just like a female though, she is given the sun and the moon and then proceeds to complain and demand she also be given the comparably-microscopic gems which held huge sentimental value to the very guy who wanted to keep them after he risked his life while gifting her such magnificence.)
Its basically like a spider-vs-human encounter. The spider may startle a person, make them uncomfortable, even truly frighten them. But the risk they pose to that persons life is exeedingly small. The best the spider can hope for is to flee with everything it can muster and manage to make it under something heavy, to the utter dismay of the human pursuer. What happens most often is the spider gets smashed into peices by a mere flick of the wrist. Now, under extremely rare circumstances, a black widow will be able to bite someone who is unaware of its presence and scurry off, getting a postive K-D ratio. But, when you compare instances like those where the spider kills the human, and not the other way around, those are about the odds Ungoliant faced against the Dark Lord. Those perfect circumstances presented themselves and she took advantage. The drunk guy arrogantly stuck his hand under the cabinet to prove that the huge black widow had been killed thanks to his brilliant personal exterminator tactics.
Why can't I just name one?
@@DirtySouthJR Even though I know where you are coming from, I think your example is not a good one. Melkor was stronger than Ungoliant, yes. Melkor was weakened, yes. You are 100% right, that it was Ungoliant strongest point and one of Melkors weaker ones, but to say that Ungoliath vs Melkor is like a Human against a black widow just feels wrong. Melkor made a promise, she could eat anything. He broke his promise by not handing over the Silmarils. She immediately overpowered him and she caught him in her net and was ready to devour him. No contest, no fight. She did not poison him, he was not offguard, she simply was hell of a strong beeing and he thought he can outwit her. I doubt he thought he could take her on at that moment, if he was that strong in that time, he would not needet her to destroy the the trees. Maybe to poison them. In that moment, Melkor was a human who thought he had a dog who was dumb and did all he wanted but Ungoliant was a wolf who pinned him down for a second.
@@DirtySouthJRMelkor in his prime lost one on one to Tulkas. It’s true he generally could hold back the other Valar because he focused on power and destruction. Then Tulkas came down and made him eat dirt.
The Ungoliant battle had special circumstances but I’m unconvinced that Melkor in his prime could have beaten Ungoliant after she ate all that light. He created a true monster after letting her feed on that much light.
Even though tired and weakened, it was extremely one sided, he screamed for his life and had to get an army of balrogs to bail him out. It’s not clear any non-Eru character could contend with Ungoliant in that state. The balrogs just held her back enough to carry Melkor off.
@@DirtySouthJR there is no such thing as Melkor "past his prime". He empowered his creations with his own, else dragons, werewolves, and vampires, which Tolkien discards as threats from the first age, possibly being destroyed by the Valar when they ended the first age by defeating Morgoth and shutting him outside the world in the void.
In The Book of Lost Tales Part 2 and in The Lay of the Children of Hurin Tolkien mentions Nan Dumgorthin, a gloomy valley located between Ered Gorgoroth and Doriath, where "ghostly dwellers" live and worship idols of "nameless gods".
And once I have read that Tolkien knew about Lovecraft and quite liked his writings, even if it is possible that he didn't resonated with some of Lovecrafts ideas.
the two are linked, he had an anthology that included one of lovecrafts stories, and they both had a common influence from Lord Dunseley.
Tolkien once said that “even in mythical age there must be some enigmas” and I think this an example of that.
I'm going to be honest, the depiction of the Balrog at 0:54 is awesome. No horned demon with wings, as awesome as THAT looks.
Yes! I love the depiction of the Balrog there. Befitting as they were once "angelic" beings turned into a spirit of fire. However I'm not sure what tolkiens writings precise description is of them.
@@janusjanhaar according to the description, its a very shadowy creature with a mane made of flame, it has whip on its one hand, sword on the other, its shadow in the back is also widened almost looks like a wing, and it was never mentioned to have a horn.
@@GuyChooowow, so 0:54 nailed it.
@@nicksalvatore5717 yep, it sure did.
I cannot find any flaws in your hypothesis about the 'nameless things' and like you, I believe they were most likely created during the Great Song, along with Ungoliant. They are certainly not Maiar, like the balrogs and Mairon/Sauron or Gandalf and the Istari, as Sauron would have known of them. It is possible that the balrog in Moria would have encountered them as he traversed the tunnels before his demise. It is also possible that The Watcher In The Water is a nameless thing as we have no idea where it came from and no real name as 'The Watcher In The Water' was just a title given it by the dwarves in Moria.
And Gandalf, speaking of it, observed that it might have been 'driven out' of Moria - possibly from some of the tunnels?
Yes, I agree about the Watcher potentially being one of the nameless things.
Flat out flaw saying Illuvatar created Ungoliant but ok 🤣
Idk how Gandalf had known them, the fact that he knew that these things are older than Sauron bothers me and the fact that these creatures aren't well known, "oh there are things older and fouler than orcs in the deep places of the world" idk how did Gandalf discovered them. Oh and for the watcher on the water, it came from the lake deep beneath the mountain according to Gandalf's hypotheses so it's possible that the watcher is a nameless thing as well.
I have to say I am enjoying this channel very much. As a massive fan of Tolkien from 11 or 12 years old, I am still massively invested in the lore and so I applaud what you are doing here and long may it continue
Me too I love dark fantasy
Thank you Nigel! 😀
@@middleearthtales You are very welcome
I’d say it’s more likely Tolkien just had a very similar idea to Lovecraft. Beings beyond any sort of comprehension and instill terror just by existing. Would it be so unusual that two authors have similar ideas?
Note: I researched any Lovecraft/Tolkien connection. Though there appears to be none between the two, they were both inspired by the Norse version of the Kraken Myth. Also, Lovecraft from his "Dagon" (1917) Short Story, does mention HPL's own version of "Nameless things" - "I cannot think of the deep sea without shuddering at the nameless things that may at this very moment be crawling & floundering on its slimy bed, worshipping their ancient stone idols & carving their own detestable likenesses on submarine obelisks..." Let the reader decide.
What really intrigues me is the possibility of the nameless things is that Gandalf, a Maiar, knew them as frightening beings. But consider them being neither malevolent nor benevolent, and simply living as amoral creatures. Being so far underground in their own world, interacting with no one other than each other, they would have little to no reason to have a developed sense of purpose, and never venturing out. If they were simply mindless, and neither good nor evil, and Gandalf still saw them as horrifying then that would say a lot about how frightening they were.
Nate, you've got a really good point. The Nameless Things could be beings living in their own habitat, oblivious to what's going on in the world.
It’s wild to think that Tolkien could have been inspired partially by Lovecraft, but the theory of them being draconic in at least some fashion is most likely. Much of his influence comes from Norse mythology, which includes Níðhöggr, a dragon that *gnaws* on the world tree’s roots as you pointed out. Even if they weren’t meant to be dragons (I agree they would probably be more fleshed out), no doubt Tolkien wanted some sort of elder beasties as a head nod.
Melkor raised the Misty Mountains so they have an inherently evil aspect to them. Perhaps the nameless things came into existence as a side effect of Melkor creating the Misty Mountains.
But Sauron is older than the Misty mountains.
@@arnorrian1what? Lol he’s but that’s because Sauron is older than middle earth itself seeing as how he was one of the minor angels that helped in the singing of the song of Arda.
@@jarlwilliam9932 Tolkien states that the nameless things are older than Sauron. Misty mountains were made during the Years of the Trees, but Sauron was working for Melkor during the Years of the Lamps.
@@arnorrian1 Again Sauron is older than Arda itself, the nameless things are younger than the Maia.
@@jarlwilliam9932 Tolkien meant the Sauron in Arda. But we don't know for sure where did the nameless things come from. Ea may not be Eru's only creation.
I think when they say the Nameless things were older than Sauron, it meant they were some of the first living things existing on Arda. Eru created the Valar and Maiar to aid in the Song of Creation, which preceded the existence of Arda. At the time, they existed as beings of thought, without physical bodies.
The first beings on Arda predated the physical manifestations of the Valar (like Melkor/Morgoth), and Maiar (like Sauron and the Balrogs). So in that respect, they could be considered ‘older than Sauron’.
Alternatively, since Sauron was not named as such until later in the First Age (originally being Mairon), it could be that Gandalf meant it in that sense.
THANK YOU!!!! That passage at 6:58 from the hobbit is AS important, AS useful, and AS informative as the passage from LOTR about them, so how come basically everyone leaves that out of their video/discussion of the nameless things?!?!?!
Hi again : ) That passage was quoted in at least two of the three other videos I've seen on the subject (by Geekzone, The Red Book, and Men of the West).
@@Crafty_Spirit sorry, I yeah, don’t mean literally, I was saying basically, cause it’s definitely significantly overlooked in discussion, when compared to the usage and discussion of the other passage, definitely not that it’s overlooked in general and disregarded as a whole. Maybe I’m just coincidentally watching the videos that don’t mention it lol, but I honestly can’t remember the last time I hear the passage. It sounds like u watch WAY more of the videos than me, so it just makes sense that u hear much more than i do, anyway lol
@@andrewpaige1194 Ah get it. Haha yes to me it sometimes feels like it's a movement xD I think it's a very interesting passage but I also think it's strange to consider that Melkor who cannot create life, which is a central theme of his struggle, is now partially responsible for these creatures that for all intents and purposes seem to be living.
I'm all in for Melkor's early deeds on Arda being against his intentions "creative", such as when his attempt to boil the seas brings forth rain. But it's much harder to imagine that the design of strange evil creatures arising during the music then translates into actual monsters on Earth. And that's because I thought (and I could well be wrong) that all living beings had to have been imbued with a soul by Eru, unless that is different for beasts, I am really unsure on this...
I mean, the music only translated into a physical reality because Eru made the vision happen, I wonder if he was aware of the hateful beings it would create.
But anyway, it's hard but also fascinating to discuss about how the music relates to Arda.
Gnaws at the world also evokes hunger or gluttony imagery so I could see an argument that the nameless things are related to Shelobs ancestor. Even Sauron was terrified of the depths her power reached, so much he ended up breaking his deal with her. Alternatively, when the world was formed in song Melkor couldn't make anything original so he twisted others' songs into his creations. What if he ended up making these nameless things as a by-product of twisting others' work he was jealous of? These things slipped through the cracks in the world unnoticed by most beings including their creator. If Melkor was unaware of his creations it would make sense why Sauron wouldn't know of them. So they gnaw at a world they despise or are jealous of in the end.
I feel like the nameless things are more of a literary device to convey the mysterious and sinister nature of dark places. For instance when Gandalf says there are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world, and the balrog shows up at the end, more ancient and fouler than the orcs of Moria. My take is thus that the nameless things serve as a way to show how ancient the world is and how out of their league the fellowship is, like theres ancient evil that we do not even know or fathom.
The Nameless Things that Gandalf encountered don't necessarily have to be identical to the things that made the caves where Gollum lived. The ones in Gollum's area could have been smaller, younger, weaker nameless things just as there are goblins, orcs, and Uruk hai. Perhaps younger and smaller nameless things live closer to the surface because the nameless things that live deeper are a threat to them, the way young Komodo dragons live in trees to avoid adults that eat them.
For a small creature, they sure have created a very vast cavern, tho it's widened by goblins, it possibly is still wide.
Which AI voice generator did you use for these videos of yours? It did a pretty good job and I think I'd like to use it for a personal project of mine.
I’m glad Tolkien leaves out solid information on most evil things. We need no more than to know that “it’s not good so stay away, or if possible do away with it” evil deserves no spotlight
Kinda ironic how the films turned Sauron into an actual spotlight tho
Peter Jackson kinda did a clever switch on the unused Nameless Things of The Lord of the Rings merging them with the furtherly less explained Wereworms from the Last Desert in the Far East of Middle Earth and using them for a very uncanny fanfiction kaiju-Lovecraftian-like lore-thing on their brief appeareance on the Battle of the Five Armies movie. He mainly figured on to link the issue on some long forgotten earth-burrowers on the Middle Earth and that creature brief mentioned on The Hobbit and linked it with the Nameless Things as some worm-like earth burrowers. There appeareance seems to hint on the last doom of the world after Morgoth´s return as well.
I think your theory is brilliant. The origins of the dragons was always not entirely clear. They had intelligence, speech and even wit. That Melkor could have taken 'nameless things' and made them grander - as opposed to lesser and warped - is more than likely. Certainly everything pertaining to Smaug supports that. They have, let's call it, a 'telluric lust'. That is their hunger for gold. In the canon they always go after underground kingdoms as did Smaug. And not all of them, certainly the early 'cold drakes' even had wings. You've nailed it.
I mean other than thinking wyrm means worm that is
I've always thought the reason the nameless things weren't spoken of is because they weren't fully to the intent of Eru Ilúvatar. Either "impurities" in the void where he formed Eä, personifications of forces (like decay), byproducts of Morgoth's dispersing of his power into the of Arda or randomness like @SweHumor's theory of tuning sounds here in the comments.
I've been argued against, rather convincingly, that Tolkien's omnipotent creator is probably a lot more infallible than any deity that I myself would imagine so things not to Eru Ilúvatar's intent may be impossible.
YES. Someone gets it phew.
I think they WERE “created by Melkor”, as it were. My belief, and what I feel like is the only view that truly TRULY holds water…or at least holds the MOST water, is that they were created of the discord in the music, BUT It’s even basically said by Eru that the ainur knew not WHAT they were doing, per se, just that they were singing along. They didn’t know that they were creating things with the music, so Melkor wouldn’t even know what he was actually doing/what he might have possibly created/that he might have created anything. Eru only showed them AFTER, that the music took form into Arda, so these nameless things were born of the discord, older than all(as far as within Arda), and known of by none, save Eru himself.
The music itself created nothing, it was Eru who gave it a reality. And that hypothesis you present works, but personally it feels overly contrived and patchy. The notes in Morgoth's Ring were probably not written to explain any Lord of the Rings content, not least because they were written years after the novel. There is simply no "correct solution" to this problem, and probably even deliberately so by the author.
I agree with both of you, because you may both be right. As i said, one of the aspects that makes Middle-earth so captivating is the fact that we can continue to engage in these discussions and debates, even after so many decades have passed!
@@Crafty_Spirit oh, absolutely, tolkien may have just not gotten to that info yet, or meant to leave it a mystery, or most likely, he just didn’t feel it necessary to answer such questions. I definitely take it as one of those things that just can’t be truly answered, because it doesn’t have an answer. Even if we could “solve” it perfectly, unless tolkien himself said it, there’s no right answer. As much as I would love to know, these mysteries r fun! Honestly, I WOULD rather have an answer for THIS mystery, and don’t feel like having an answer would make it any less interesting(lol I guess depending ON the answer), but it’s like with some movies, I just have to suspend disbelief, or the equivalent of that for this situation.
*Yeah, ur right, sorry for the inaccurate point…the music itself isn’t the actual creation, it was just the blue prints, so I’m meaning the discord is the BLUEPRINTS for them, not the direct creation.
@@middleearthtales oh yes, absolutely! I wish SO much that we got SO much more material from tolkien, but a major disappointment would be if he ended up filling in/tying up all the lose end mysteries lol
I'm enjoying this! The bell has been ring on my end.
It is important to remember that Gandalf and the Valar do not know everything.
Sauron became Melkor's servant before the Dark Lord did any deed upon Arda, for Sauron aided him in all these deeds in one way or another, but he did not reveal himself as Melkor's servant until Angband was ready and that it was in the midst of the Years of the Trees. So whether or not both Dark Lords knew of these creatures, I believe, if they came from Melkor, it was probably a consequence during the dissonances in Ainulindalë.
In short, we must see Gandalf as someone who, although he is one of the wisest beings in existence, does not know everything and therefore assumes things based on his personal experiences, just like the other ainur.
My interpretation of the Nameless Things are that they represent a foil to conventional life forms that are familiar to Gandalf, similar to a fungus or ant colony. They have a different way of life that he doesn't understand or know, but their existence fits into the music of the Ainur in their own way by recycling or changing the earth in unseen ways. They operate in the shadows, but if they were to become extinct all together, it would have a ripple effect
They are evil, like Melkor, but not OF Melkor. Not of his kin. But they are not his allies. For all evil hates and they hate him to.
Seek not the nameless things. Seek not to define or know them. To do so is to garner their attention. And then they will seek to know you.
No, let them remain nameless. Let not their mention darken the light of day.
Seek not their machinations. Lest you be consumed by them.
👏
Tolkien, HPL, Poe, Ambrose, Blatty, Goodkind, Rice, G. RR Martin... I am so happy I was alive to view their work! Fantasy to horror... cosmic to Sci-Fi, terrestrial all amazing!
Love your channel. 💕🙏💕 Thank you so much - this video was great. I enjoyed it immensely. Your theories about the nameless things were interesting and I appreciate you taking the time to tease out what these things might be as they have always intrigued me. I also like the voice over. I don’t really get the technology behind it, but I think the voice fits the channel very well. Thanks again. 😊
thank you very much for your kind words. i am doing my best to make the channel better. we have just started! :)
The Norse legends talked about a variety of 1 off creatures and unnameable horrors. That particular mythology influenced Tolkien heavily. It’s entirely possible and even likely that Tolkien imagined creating more stories and front loaded that with the “nameless” beings.
I love the artwork you added, never seen a bunch of these pieces
A thoroughly enjoying discussion on a difficultly obscure member of the lore - Thank you for your contribution towards it!
Interesting thoughts, although "Even Sauron knows them not, they are OLDER THAN HE" clearly contradicts that they might have been created during the great music or at any later time, given that Sauron was already present for that.
This was a great video! I found it very informative and interesting
Thank you for this information brother!
I dont think Melkor made the nameless beings in the discord, i think the discord Melkor created made the nameless beings itself. not a concious choice to make, but in the music creating life and everything, the discord made some of the things come out corrupted
Tolkien seems to have known very little of Lovecraft work a big while after finishing and publishing the Lord of the Rings trilogy so he didn´t knew about them neither was so fond of his work or knew the Cthulhu mythos probably in all, just some of the previous Dream cycle stories less famous than the cosmic horror ones.
However Tolkien was fond of Lovecraft´s coworkers, Robert E. Howard specially Conan stories, and may have known some while doing the Lord of the Rings too. He also was very fond of Clark Ashton Smith but he seems to have known him at the same time as Lovecraft so he didn´t may have gotten influence from there.
Anyway beside of the obvious comparative mythology sources coming from the German-Norse Eddas or the Greeks Theogony when addressing the eerie start of the world, he might have known also the precursors of cosmic horror to Lovecraft as Machen, Blackwood, Bierce, Chambers and Hogdson.
Wow! That is one of the most convincing AI voices I've heard, I actually had no idea until you mentioned it. Especially impressive given all the fantasy words.
What did you use to generate it?
Anyone else find it funny when he says "Bell-Roggs." LOL
Jingle bell rogs
No funnier than ball-rogs. The latter pronunciation is the basis for the monster in the Bored of the Rings parody, the Ball Hog. 😄
The dragons coming from a mutation of the nameless things is the best theory I heard of their origin yet!!! That makes excellent sense!!
In nordic mythology there is this dragon called Nidhögg, who chomps on the roots of Ygdrasil, the world tree.
When he one they finally manages to chew thru, the tree will fall and Ragnarök will begin.
Ones then a new world begins, Nidhögg will be revealed to have survived, bringing the dark forces into this world as well.
I'd say you are doing an excellent job with this channel. Your ideas shed new light on one of my most favorite stories. Thank you. Also, the AI voice isn't nearly as AI sounding as most. I kinda like it
Has anyone thought to just ask them their name? Manners people.
It’s pretty much based on nothing but I’d be pretty creepy if the nameless things weren’t creations of Eru Ilúvatar or any other valar. What if they predated the song and maybe even Eru Ilúvatar himself? Simply existing in an existential void until suddenly a world was created around them. Maybe they stay down in the deepest darkest recesses of the world because it’s the most like their old home
First and Foremost Melkor was Chief of the Ainur in the beginning....and the Maier who joined him were the Balrogs so these were more or less his peers who were of like mind and they were with him from the very beginning...Sauron however was the same for Aule and didnt go with Melkor until much later.....that being said this leads me to believe that the Nameless things existed in the Void....we are told that Morgoth went there frequently Alone meaning without the other Ainur.... And it does not say in the Silmarillion that there is nothing in the void and yet Melkor searched there for the imperishable flame so why did Melkor think he could find the imperishable flame in the Void? He must have had good reason to think it was there, the Void must have been a place where things were there not just a hollow and empty echo chamber.... There could have been prior creations of Eru's living there....warped prototype to the Ainur...Eru's Dirty Little Secrets, his failures....Eru told Melkor himself that there is nothing that exists that does not have its roots in Eru...so these nameless things obviously were created by Eru and they scampered and slipped into Arda unnoticed by everyone but Melkor and Eru...
Additionally, Sauron always had his fortresses and areas out and away from Morgoth so it's very possible that he was unaware of Melkor using these nameless things to create Dragons.... And I would say more than likely it's probable he was unaware...I can just imagine Sauron asking Melkor and Melkor keeping it a secret for fear Sauron or others could possibly do the same ! Melkor would probably scold him or laugh at Sauron for asking...
Also the Balrogs even though Maier were immediately with Melkor so were more akin to peers vs Sauron who was a converted and manipulated Servant that's why he's listed as the greatest servant and the Balrogs were not because Morgoth would view the Balrogs as Brothers and peers, and I don't know why other people haven't thought of that before....If you're getting ready to be devoured by a Massive Dark bloated Spider are you going to call your Greatest Servant or your Brothers to bail you're ass out? Obviously Morgoth called his brothers.... You always see people in art and in conversations portraying Sauron as his besty but thats not the Case more than likely Melkors besty was his Brother Gothmog the Greater....
Anyway these are all my thoughts.... Additionally who is also to say that Eru didnt have Peers that had similar power and traits and their own flame imperishable and the Void was a neutral area between all of them so these nameless things could have been created by other beings like Eru....
I always thought that the Watcher in the Water was of that type. Wasn’t it mentioned that it had likely come up from the cracks when the valley before the door was flooded?
Loved this video!
Thank you!
For me i think during the song their was another besides melkor who wove the nameless things into it who hasnt reveled himself. reason why i think this is due to the unfinished work tolkien abandoned "The New Shadow"
I like the dragon theory! Cool video as usual!
Subscribed. Keep on trucking, video man.
Thank you!
Fair points, the only thing i would point out is you seem to give more stock to Gandalfs words than maybe you should. He was a snoopy fellow for sure and found the truth of things seemingly more often than not, but knowing that Sauron was unaware of them feels more like guesswork on his part.
For my money, the nameless things are more or less the same kind of beings as Ungoliant and possibly Tom Bombadil. the idea that they are older than Sauron i think is key. And yes i am aware I am relying on Gandalfs words here, though he seemingly encountered some and being a Maiar this feels like something he could have perceived.
At the end of the day, as you said we have precious little info and that seems like it was intentional. Both for the flow of the storytelling and for evoking the dread happenings of Gandalfs ordeal.
Is it also a veiled reference in the song of Thorin and Company? "In dungeons deep where dark things sleep..." also from The Hobbit?
great spotting!
The sentence that says the nameless things is a quote from Gandalf, not Tolkien himself. While Tolkien writes Gandalf saying this, Gandalf and Tolkien are two different entities. I know this is obvious, but I think it’s important to distinguish the two.
Tolkien would know what Sauron knows, but how would Gandalf know what Sauron knows? This quote by Gandalf implies that he assumes he knows what Sauron knows. Sauron could have knowledge of these creatures, but Gandalf doesn’t know what Sauron knows.
I think this same logic can be applied to the Ainur and Eru. Eru is potentially eons older and massively stronger than the Ainur. Eru may have created other things in the void unbeknownst to the Ainur. Like the Ainur, he gave them freewill and let them decide if they wanted to be peaceful (Tom Bombadil) or destroy (Ungoliant). I don’t necessarily think Tom is good and Ungoliant is evil btw, but that’s a side story.
While I like the idea of these entities being created by Melkor’s discourse, I don’t think his discourse would create beings as powerful as ungoliant (able to kill the physical form of a Valar) or as peaceful as Tom Bombadil. Other Valar created the Ents (created by Yavanna) and Dwarves (created by Aule). While these beings are strong in their own right, they don’t stand a chance against a Valar, and Dwarves didn’t get their own free will until Eru gifted them the inner flame. Melkor was the second most powerful being at the time, but he didn’t have the flame imperishable. Without the flame inside these unknown entities they have no free will and are easily manipulated. Ungoliant doesn’t really fit this description as she disobeyed and then defeated Morgoth. And it seems like Tom Bombadil has his own freewill.
So I think these nameless things were created by Eru in the void unbeknownst to the Ainur, and like Ungoliant, had children that were then corrupted by Morgoth and turned into creatures like dragons.
Lol now this is all fantasy, but this makes sense to me.
Finally, I’m curious about the octopus-like creature outside of Moria. Is that a nameless as well?
Lord Dunsany (Edward John Moreton Drax Plunkett, 18th Baron of Dunsany) was a major influence on Lovecraft, and considering the body of work he created, that is a more likely source of the Nameless Things, Tolkien did not bring word back, Lovecraft did.
Hey, I like the callout about the AI voice at the end. Much appreciated!
EPIC CONTENT
The lore is breathtaking as always
Great video!
Good Job bro ❤
Well, it's nightmares for me tonight. :)
Maybe Sauron does know about this "nameless things" but Gandalf doesn't know that becuse he doesn't have a way to ask Sauron about that things he cannot even name.
"Gnawing" was also used to describe the Orcs cutting down Fangorn Forest. Could simply be a description of mining out tunnles, so very well may not monsters, but another underground society.
Great video
I can name at least 3 nameless things. This is George, he is a stamp collector."a huge rumble is felt", This is Bill, he is kinda weird but he friendly."a loud roar is heard", and this is Gloria, she is an accountant." a shrill is heard followed by a smooch".
I dont mind that it was voiced by AI at all. Loving your content. Keep up the great work..
First of all, this be a grand video, with wondrous art and tale-telling. This one finds it plenty enlightening! Second, this voice, it is crafted by the spirits of technology‽ This one never would have believed! You've done noble work, despite this 'limitation' as you say. If anyone givin' you grief, send 'em to the shadowed abyss of the nameless ones!" 🌌📜✨🎙🐺🔥
Thank you very much for your kind words. Running a channel on UA-cam is really hard work, there are ups and downs. Your words motivated me to continue. Thanks :)
It would have been legendary if Amazon tackled this in their adaptation instead of identity politics and diversity.
The lore of LOTR is so deep and vast.
Wow, the narration was an AI voice-over? I'm both impressed and creeped-out, haha. It sounded very real to me. (Your note on the mis-pronunciation of certain words actually explains why I've been hearing so many hiccups on other videos from other channels).
I like that in sci-fi world, Lovecraftian entities are considered more evil and horrifying than demons themselves. Even in the age of discord i don't think even Melkor completely knows what horror he unleashed with the chaotic song so even though these beings of darkness existence came about through him, they owe Melkor no allegiance, they never aided him in Dagor dagorath nor will they in Dagor bragollach.
I wonder what kind of stuff was crawling around in the pits of untumno at the beginning of the world
Interesting.
My theory is that the nameless things are a natural result of the discordant singing in the creation of the world. The gods of middle earth were not in harmony when the world was made, and the nameless things could be seen as glitches in the world.
Great vid, subbed!
I think that the nameless things are meant to be the disharmony that occurred during the music, causing chaos beings to come into existence. As melkor sang his disharmony he accidentally created them and so does not know about them.
Thank you Andrew!
Is that music from KotoR you are playing? :)
Btw I couldn't tell that the voice is produced by an AI, though I noticed the tendency to emphasise the last syllable instead of the second or third to last
He fought in WW1, they're probably just of similar nature to what he encountered but as Gandalf stated does what to darken the light.
Reminds me of the trick Lovecraft made popular with the "things that can drive a man to madness"
lovecraft claimed that the cthulhu mythos was influenced by the works of writers such as lord dunsany, arthur machen and william hope hodgson among others. it is known that tolkien was also influenced by dunsany , and i wouldn't be surprised that he knew the work of machen and hodgson as well. the name "nameless things"may be a coincidence. it should also be remembered that the entities of the cthulhu mythos originate from other planets and dimensions, as do their creators and masters.
Nice one bother!
I only have sensations about them. Some kind of primordial being bind to existence of the world itself, they are just "there". Not dragon precursor because Melkor tended to transform things in other far more dark and disgusting, think of elves into orcs; yet, people sometimes speak of dragons, with no fear of telling of them in daylight.
These things, though, are something even a powerful being as Gandalf the White would not speak of.
To me, they are some cthonic beings, neutral in benevolence or malevolence, that just "don't care", avoiding orcs and goblins not out of fear but of "Idontwannaseeyou"ness.
Still scary though. Maybe an opposite to Tom Bombadil
It might not be that in the great music the name-less things were created thru the song, but more that when Melkor attempted to shift or make the song his own his meddling creates these name-less things in his attempt unknown to him. That the name-less things are from the corrupting of the song an the left over things from when the creator fixed the song, but they were left still existing in the emptiness that existed before Middle-earth, or even these were sealed within middle-earth in the fixing of the great song by the creator.
So what you're saying is: Melkor created them, but he may not be aware of their existence. nice approach
@@middleearthtales yup like a by product or waste from his attempt at corrupting the song. There might have been more, but when the creator fixed the song all but the nameless things were erased.
Hopefully we'll get videos with your voice in the future... Great channel wish you the best
I have always thought that the world was there before the music was made. It would make sense in the essence of that Tom Bombadil was there before the music.
Another possible theory is that if the music created the world, some/most of the nameless things (that escaped the void into space) may have lived or been carried by the forming rocks from the music bringing them together, entrapping them at the lowest and earliest formation of the world, which might explain why there's so very few of them on the surface
I really like the reference to Dragons, and think you may be right. Melkor could have kept this as a secret from Sauron. Sauron spent a lot of time in Angband, out of contact (or proximity) before Utumno fell. Maybe in that time (which was very long) he fashioned the nameless things to Dragons.
The nameless things could be the wereworms that was mentioned and showed as a deleted scene which wasn't a deleted scene if you went to the movies to see the last movie for the Hobbit
I think it's more likely that Lovecraft adapted archetypes from Tolkien than that Tolkien borrowed lore from Lovecraft. But a connection is fun to think about either way! Someone should write fan-fiction in which both Lovecraft and Tolkien had glimpses of the same dark dimension, Lovecraft through his traumatic childhood experiences and Tolkien through the fires of war. The uniting premise could be that both of them are summoned and empowered across time and space to organize a "League of Extraordinary Extradimensional Gentlemen" (ie "The LEEG") to combat the "Nameless Ones / Great Old Ones." :)
Everyone forgets that in the Hobbit, the wild were worms of a desert are mentioned. Relative of the nameless things? Possibly the breeding stock of dragons by Melkor?
My headcanon:
There were things in existence before Illuvatar created the Valar and the world. Maybe they came from Illuvatar in a previous creation, but were not part of this particular creation. When the world was formed, some remained outside of it (like Ungoliant) and others came in or were caught up in the creation and trapped in it. Not all of them were evil. This is what I believe Tom Bombadil and Goldberry to be, for example. They are from outside and before the world, but not evil, and perfectly fine to make their home there. Most are evil, and are part of what needs to be cleansed from the world before it can become the promised paradise later. A lot of that cleansing could just be them diminishing and fading away.
Wait your voice was AI? I wasn't even aware until you mentioned it o.o
That's impressive. Also, gud video c:
It is true that Melkor could not have “created” the nameless ones. As only Iluvatar was the only being capable of direct creation ( not a morphing or changing if an existing being or item). And you are correct that if he had moulded a new race or strain of creature, Sauron would have been aware of them. However, Tolkien was deeply religious and was a firm Roman Catholic. As such, his beliefs could have allowed for other evils in Middle Earth nit connected to Melkor or Sauron. As a transcriber and professor of the Bible. He knew that even in the Bible itself describes in the Old Testament evil creatures that were neither Satan nor his demonic minions. Although Lovecraft was a writer of pulp stories. Much of his style reflected the interest and studies of the occult and the strange beings represented by such philosophies. Such affairs would have been seen as tremendous transgressions to his Catholic upbringing and a danger to Christian thought. He would have viewed the antics of the Hellfire club and people like Alister Crawley as dark and menacing as any of the traditional seven sins or transgressions against Christianity. In fact possible more so, as sinful actions inspired by Satan and human frailties, though bad, are not always as consciously directed indulgences in dismantling Christianity or what nay be viewed as universally “good”. That the dark nameless beings in Middle Earth could be more dangerous than the evil of Sauron or Melkor. As their evil comes about from their “sense” of order in the world. While the nameless ones have no such plans or philosophies but are rather the true definition of anarchy and madness. Keep in mind that Melkor was horrified by Ungoliant’s voracious hunger for the Light and cherished nothing. To the point of plunging the world completely into darkness with no care of what such actions would result in. It is possibly what Gandalf feared to bring to the light of day such cruel and senseless madness. Much like the madness in characters like Cthulhu; that makes Lovecraft’s stories of the Old Ones so frightful.
This may be explained somewhere else in LOTR cannon but what about the "Great Worms" (I think that's what they are called it's been a while) mentioned in 'The Hobbit' that the goblins use to burrow into the battle of the five armies to avoid the sunlight? Are those basically legless dragons or could they be something similar to what you're talking about?
I do think the nameless things were created by Melkor out of his discordant music. The nameless things are said to be gnawing on the world. While there is certainly a literal element to that as are said to live in tunnels, I think the choice of word of world as opposed to earth or rock implies a metaphysical gnawing. They are gnawing and gnashing on arda in a metaphysical sense. That would also explain why they weren't used as weapons or warriors by Melkor; they have a different purpose.
There is also "The Boats of the Glen Carrig" and several other novels written by William Hope Hodgson, who's writing inspired Lovecraft, and Hodgson's works are full of eldritch horrors...and "The Boats of Glen Carrig" especially is WELL worth a read! 😶🌫
I always thought that the watcher in the water was one of these nameless things that came to the surface
Tolkien: dude, did you see the thumbnail? I don’t want to name these things, let alone talk about them