What’s an Acceptable Amount of Drum Mic Bleed? | FAQ Friday - Warren Huart: Produce Like A Pro
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- Опубліковано 5 сер 2024
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Our friend, the wonderful Dave Jerden is a well-known producer, but did you know he actually started out as an engineer? He's engineered some of the best records of all time, and he shared with me his rule for managing mic bleed.
When a drummer plays the rack tom, no other mic should pick up more than 9db worth of signal.
Dave would look at the VU meters and if they went up more than 9 DB then he would move the microphones into a place where they're picking up less DB.
There's always a compromise between picking up the drum itself (whether it be a rack tom, snare, floor, cymbals) and picking up too much bleed from other things.
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Ask me some questions for next weeks FAQ Friday!
Should projects/songs be copyrighted before getting third party opinions, advice, production evaluation and/or mixing/mastering processes are executed with audio production business like yourself?
Hello Warren! Can you talk a little bit about enhancing the loud end of a piano? Would you use compression, another technique or is it abour mic positioning?
curious if there is a tape emulation yet that is worth investing in? You are the best Warren!
Hey Warren,
I was wondering if you can talk a little about tracking drums. Are you compressing and
eq-ing on the way in, or are you just getting a loud clean signal and taking care of the rest afterwards?
Hey Warren, I do have a very stupid question: Why is - for perfect phase - in the equal lateral triangle of mics the distance between the mics relevant? Thanks, Jürgen
With setting up a spaced pair overheads, if possible, I start with the equilateral triangle too. After that, I lay my phone on the center of the snare, playing back beeps. According to how the recorded (beeps) waveforms line up in my DAW, I slightly adjust the position.
oh that's neat. Should get you in phase pretty damn perfectly. gonna try that.
Have never heard that before but dang bro that's actually a smart idea
I take syncblops at 1kHz and at 60bpm or so because if the tempo is too fast, odds are that you line up two different beeps.
excellent video :-) As a bonus, If you hover your mouse over the video bar and move right slowly, Warren does a beautiful 'gesturous' dance! :-)
Wow! Thanks so much for answering my question from last Friday Warren! You are such an inspiration and guiding light for all of us here that are legitimately trying to learn this trade.
~ Mary
It’s likely been said before, but also shifting the overheads around the kick and snare also helps a ton with the centre image. I never used to bother doing this up till a few years ago. Great vid as always!
Always got deep pleasure from achieving a killer drum sound with just mic position and a little compression to tape. Awesome tips and tricks... even though you have plenty of videos talking about mic techniques, always seem to pick up a little gem of something different. Thanks for sharing so generously! 🥁🎼🎧
An excellent example of getting great drum sounds. Thank you Warren. This has opened a new view of mic placement for percussion.
Jim Berry wow! Tanks my friend! Glad to be able to help!!
Thanks Warren. My studio kit is set with 15 mics and there is always bleed somewhere. Controlling it is about creativity and drummer patience. Thank god I have a really great pro drummer on this current session and he puts up with me. Spending some time on getting good controllable separation goes a long way to making the mix go way easier. You're the best....thanks
Great drum bleed advice. Very helpful. Thanks Warren. Cheers! 🎤🥁🎧👍🏼
Fantastic video! One of the best. Imo. Seems like you work like a madman! Thanks for all you do!
Two comments from me on the drum mic bleed topic: what really helped me is to have all these multitracks from different mixing courses (Thanks a lot Warren and all of the PLAP family). It really helps with engineering because you can get an idea how things sound before the mixing stage. helps a lot with finding the best positions for mics, hear how much bleed there is and everything.
If you want as much seperation as possible: in the metal world there are a few producers having a lot of success with recording cymbals and shells in two takes. but that requires of course a really good drummer to maintain the groove (there is a podcast with Eyal Levi, Machine and Chris Adler where they talk about it, if anyone is interested in that)
Cue the inevitable debate about recording acoustic cymbals and using triggers on the shells to mix in sampled drums...
Thanks Warren. I'm a writer/musician that has an album worth of music put together (yes I am doing an album).
I am recording and mixing an acoustic album this winter, and next winter I hope to record a full rock album (I somewhat decently play bass, drums, lead guitar, rhythm guitar and sing.).
Your videos are a great way for me to learn about recording, and your tip about putting the cymbals 18" away from the Tom's just influenced my drum setup. I'm going to save this video for my mic setup too.
Thanks again Warren, we are ever so blessed to have such awesome people as yourself to teach us the finer things in life. Cheers
warren how the hell do you pump out so much info time after time after time, the human recordopdia, i agree with all points here including the hats high enough from the snare point but also I've seen a trend of drummers with a sneaky weird lazy but tight kinda feel who have insisted on the hat being really close to the snare, a mare for me recording but in the end a sans amp saves me, so much easier when the hats are more north tho))) thanks so much for keeping it coming warren, marvellous!!
Yeah GOOD point Warren. I personally have two separate "setups" for my drums. A Live setup and a Studio setup. I have also used some foam, like the Cone of Shame for our lovely pets after a Vet visit, to help reduce the hats into my snare mic.
Wonderful FAQ Friday! Thanks Warren very useful info here.
Hi David Allen Hammond thanks ever so much my friend!
Love that you brought up Glyn Johns and his visual positioning, ‘cause I tend to feel that’s vastly overlooked whenever I see videos of people going off like “well all the greats measured to the millimetre”. Great video, and hey, if you’re not using those 87’s as much anymore, I’d gladly take them off your hands haha
Very valuable information, thanks so much for sharing, Warren. It's much appreciated. I have an exceptionally small drum room/studio and can use all help I can get :-)
thanks warren for the info awesome as always
Absolutely enjoyed todays faq Friday definitely one for drummers like myself . After the first question I started thinking about the last question and then bam there it was. And now I have one . Ok. I record drums in a basic 12 x18 bedroom I have the drums about a foot from the Wall facing it , I have all toms miced and then two large diaphragms and two small condensers right now I use the large diaphragms for overheads and the small condensers one for bottom snare and the other for Hi hat . And mostly record driven rock. Considering the room size do you think this is the best way to mic the kit. Oh and the mics are far from high end .
Thank you Warren! Love the drum questions. Sometimes the imperfect situations create an imperfect sound which actually might end up sound perfect, if you know what I mean.
Have a great weekend :)
This was one great video. Thanks! Oh, and I've left a probably very stupid question above concerning the distance between the mics. I don't understand why it matters.
I always leave in all the bleed in my drum recordings. I never ever gate out/remove the bleed. Never. I just prefer the sound with the bleed in it.
I live in the middle east where we have alot of percussions like Durbuka ,Req , Bandeer ... Etc
And some of them are playing the same frequency range, what's the key to mix all of those percussions and what to do if you have also a drums with them.
I haven't used Neumann U87s myself, but I've worked with U47s for a while. I was an intern at a studio that had a U47 w/ long body and one w/ short body. Where they matched? No. Did they sound identical? No. The owner would sometimes request 'long' or 'short specifically for mono use. However, the stereo sound I heard with these mics is unlike anything I've ever heard. That being said, if you want perfect/sterile stereo, I can understand you'd want to use something else. The U47 has a beautiful character, but it's not always the 'right' sound. I'd love to try this Lewitt stereo mic you mentioned at some point.
Great video! I'll keep the drum bleed idea in mind whenever I need to record an acoustic kit again :)
Great Video! What do u thinking of using drum triggers for Snare and Toms to trigger the gate of their Microphones? isn't this a better solution for Cymbal Bleed?
Great video Warren!
Great video! I was hoping to hear your take on limiting tom mic bleed..I have 3 targeted placed SM57s on a 3 tom kit...they seem to pick up EVERYTHING especially my snare and each other's toms but also kick...so if I'm trying to isolate a kick or snare sound, I have to more often than not targetedly gate the toms (via automation)...or just midi map and replace the toms...either way it's a bit of manual work either way as you can imagine.
Hi BrandonX76 thanks very much! I thought I covered the tom bleed? Are you maybe saturating your tom tracks? Be careful not to hit your mic pres too hard as they will bring up the background and create a lot of bleed. Do you compress as well? I only use compression lightly on the snare top and kick in mic. I hope that helps?
@@Producelikeapro oh...mayyybe it that simple, (and I hope it is) I will definitely try. Thanks man...great content as of late, getting time with many of my heroes. (Butch, JJP, Manning etc etc etc). Maybe get some time with Bill Schnee?? cheers
Hey Warren, I record guitar into Reaper through the USB connection of my Fender Mustang amp. Should I upgrade my interface to a Focusrite Scarlett if all I do is record guitar? Would it make a huge difference? Thanks, I am wondering if I should spend the extra money.
Try to add a layer or two of acoustic foams in addition to placement of interfering elements of drum, on the deaf area of mic and it will reduce bleed dramatically....quite works for me
That was beautiful! kick, snare, kick kick, snare, CYMBALS!!! 👍🏻👍🏻. It made my day.
Hello to the whole team. Im wondering if you guys use any kind of tracking compression with vocals at all or if you just record it all natural and add those things after with plug-ins
Hi Bryce Kleinhanz Marvellous question! I always track with compression! My ordered chain is a DBX160 VU to an 1176
Warren, I know this might seem like an obvious question but how do you deal with dust in your studio? As clean as my gear seems out front, I am shocked at the dust that settles over my motherboard on my PC and other cables behind the rack/workstation desk. Any tips?
Marvellous question! The console awe use a soft brush and a vacuum. For most electronic gear I would suggest the same!
then, if we raise the cymbals, how high should we set OH? (XY)
Thank you Warren. 🙂
Hi Audrey Sims thanks ever so much my friend!
Good video! Great sounding music at the end. I was thinking how funny it would be it you had really awful sounding music at the end. lol
I just finished my first ever full band mix. There was a lot of snare bleeding into the high hat mic. Like, the snare was louder than the high hats in that mic. I managed to get it where it needed to be, but it was a lot of work. I wonder what your thoughts might be regarding that particular mic bleed situation. (I didn't do the tracking)
Hi TheWhollymoly great question! That’s quite typical! I would suggest trying sidechain compression in the hihat. Every time the snare plays it will duck the snare in the hat mic.
@@Producelikeapro Warren: Just wanted to follow up. I watched a tutorial on your channel about sidechain compression, tried it on the mix in question, and it worked magically! I added it to the high hat track, and the two overheads, too, while I was at it. I was able to delete all the automation I'd done to those 3 tracks to try to get the snare to sound good. The sidechain compression sounds 1000% better than what I had before. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with neophyte engineers/mixers such as myself!
Just a few comments on what was said about cymbals: thin doesn't equal bright. Thinner cymbals in general have a lower pitch vs. the same size cymbal in a heavier weight. Adding mass (thickness) in general raises the pitch of a cymbal (compare an 18" thin crash to an 18" rock/heavy crash, the thinner crash will generally have a shorter sustain and lower pitch). Also, A Customs are NOT dark. They are some of the brightest sounding cymbals that Zildjian makes. Other than that, I agreed with all the other points made about drum recording. Thanks Warren!
While this is true, I consider timbre more important than pitch when it comes to brightness/darkness
Sweat bullets with drums and pianos the first time. Thanks brother.
Hi Morley Challenged thanks ever so much my friend!!
So basically, my drums setup is totally unfit for recording. I have a setup where I can reach all the elements without my elbows leaving my body. That's what I'm used to for nearly forty years, I can play blindfolded that way. Maybe I should consider just recording with overheads and kick then? Or maybe there are mics out there that suit my needs?
lol at the pic of Warren in the thumbnail.
Another Virgo Asshole haha nice!
640 TS, Warren, not only was that a long one, but if I'm broke at the end of the year, it's partly because your teasing sales patter. I know it's true, based on what I have from my LCT440. --- "I'm in debt"; "I know, but listen to that... it's in stereo!".
You need to get into the wonderful world for triggers!
Put a trigger on the snare, side chain the gate on the snare off of that the trigger.
Speaking of symbals/OH, one problem is when the cymbals don't match, sound-wise. I had this problem where one cymbal was extremely bright, and none of the others were, so I couldn't simply EQ it.
If all the cymbals are from the same "set", like Sabian HHX, or whatever they're called, then you won't have this problem. but for drummers who have mixed old and new cymbals from all sorts of [cheap?] brands, then this can be a problem. They might not match.
What's the preferable room dimensions to make drums recordings?
largest you can get
isosceles triangle works also
Would the 640 TS work as a stereo overhead mic for drums?
Absolutely! Don’t expect a wide stereo image like a spaced pair, but the stereo image that you get is extremely realistic. Therefore the genre is the deciding factor wheter you set up a spaced pair or a stereomic. But I like a stereo mic as overhead very much.
Daniel C yes! It’s amazing!! I absolutely love it!!
@@Kevin-vq6rv Awesome, thank you, Kevin! :)
@@Producelikeapro That's awesome!! Thank you, Warren! :) Would you place it over the center of the kit and have a spaced pair as well? Or just use the 640 TS? Thanks!
Love you channel and i just subscribe to your website ..but the problem is Your website is quite slow as i am trying to download some of your awesome drums. The Blackbird studio more than 10 hours ..to download them. best to you
Hi IVAN KLASS sorry you’re having issues downloading files from Google Drive where the files are hosted. I’m not sure that I can improve Google’s performance wherever you are located. I tried here to download that session and it downloaded in 20 mins, however the service is super fast here, so each area and internet provider will give us a different experience.
@@Producelikeapro Hi Warren i done it in one hour and half , thank you so much for the reply anyway... if i may suggest to have single shots of individual drums from Blackbird studio in the near future and if you could tell us which drum kit they are using ? as they sound perfectly amazing !!! Big respect to you from a little English town know as the home of Marshall Guitar Amps Milton Keynes England ! :)
Hi IVAN KLASS wonderful! Glad you were able to get the download to go faster! I love my Marshall Amps!!
Is it very wrong to try to get rid of all bleed completely? I don't like it and am aiming for the driest of drum sounds.
Hi Pat, yes, if you’re going for a completely dead drum sound then of course whatever you need to do will work great!!
@@Producelikeapro A Dry Sound Sir Never a Dead One!! :-)
Embrace it. Stop micing every drum. 2 overheads and a bass drum mic.
Faq Friday... I live in Australia so it's Saturday night
Hi Chris Carville nice! Happy Saturday night!
What is you're favorite set of drums and symbols to record with?
Hi Jud Barnes I love Ludwig Drums and Zildjain Cymbals! I also have a Paiste ride which I love!
@@Producelikeapro I've always loved the sound of Ludwig drums in a live situation verry solid sounding thank you.
Here's a question for an upcoming FAQ: Many smart speakers and bluetooth speakers today are sold as single mono speakers. Is this influencing your mixing knowing that so many people will listen to music in mono?
Hey PLAPers, I just got an idea for a video, which coudn't be made by someone else better than you.
Reference tracks. You may say, we already talked about those and that's true, but I was thinking of the best reference tracks by genre. You know pop, rock, prog-rock, punk, soul, blues, hiphop, wave / post punk, pseudo-classic, jazz, country, etc.
It would maybe too much work to find them all on your own, but remembering the amazing people you had on the channel, maybe those would contribute their top picks?
What do you think?
I didn't even start learning drums until I was 40...lol
Although ,I had miked drums quite a few times over the years.
Hi Edwin Crain it’s never too late to start my friend!!
Edwin Crain marvellous
Kick, snare, kick-kick, snare, CYYYYMBAAAAAAALLLLLL!!!11!!!!1!
Thomas Niehof haha thanks!!
What are the chances of me seeing a complete Mutt Lange interview before I die?
Honestly its ok. Unless its super processed metal drums, the natural bleed from almost any recording is totally workable. If you want that fake hip hop or pop sound you’ll probably use samples anyways. Just like Metal drums which get replaced as well. Ive never heard a properly miced kit sound like too much bleed. Even live todays kits sound clean and treated outside of studio elements. Mics are better to. Its actually hard to get bleed to ruins your recordings now lol
Hmm, a discussion about drum bleed and no mention of off-axis response? The need to control bleed depends on a lot of factors but I think the sound quality of the bleed is of primary importance and that quality is usually determined by the off-axis response of the microphones used. Everyone's favorite on toms makes toms sound great but the rather unpleasant off-axis response can make cymbal bleed rather unbearable and gating will only work in certain situations and styles. Using a mic with closer to a textbook polar pattern ( meaning an even off-axis response) can reduce the degree to which bleed needs to be controlled. Ideally the off axis sources should just sound quiter while maintaining an accurate timbre, then you can actually use bleed to your advantage.
I agree.
Hi walthaus I did discuss off axis response. Maybe you missed it? We can talk about different mics in particular, for instance the sound of 421’s cymbal bleed is quite harsh to say the least! There’s a lot more options that sound far better!
Kevin you didn’t see the off axis response talk either?
@@Producelikeapro Oh, I must have missed that, my bad. I was thinking about 421 in particular. Thanks for responding.
No I didn’t. Listened to the video in my car so I wasn’t in full attention. Sorry.
wheres the the speakers from yesterday
this faq was probably recorded earlier this week because Warren is in NYC on AES this weekend
Hi Chris Wacker exactly my friend! You hit the nail on the head!
Hi david harris this was recorded earlier in the week!
Hello there 😊👋🖐
Hi Masi Music hello there back! Haha
I don’t know how much you get paid by Lewitt.. (😏 just kidding) nevertheless it works.. I’m just starting saving money for a Lewitt 640 😊
Haha it's ok! I'm a huge fan! We all know that! Haha
Electronic drums for the win, ZERO drum bleed! 😏😁
An acceptable amount of drum bleed... isnt that anything a paying customer throws into your lap to clean up the huge dump some idiot took on their drum tracks? Lol :P