I have noticed as time goes on that having to do timing components on newer vehicles is becoming more labor intensive. It proves that training is so important now to diagnose these issues right the first time and be spot on to not have to do these types of jobs twice. Great video Ivan ! 👍
So true! It's unfortunate they made the chain setup now with use of a tensioner, but also that oil pump placement makes this job a NIGHTMARE if it's 4x4! There was nothing wrong with the old setup, that worked for generations on end! It's all about complicating things & more time & money put out to repair.
I have some theories as to why you are seeing it more these days: #1 is lack of oil changes and oil level monitoring by the consumer. Cars run so well these days without any maintenance that people are also going far too long without oil changes on vehicles with tiny oil vvt passages. Also pcv systems are bypassing more oil due to ultra low friction piston rings and you will find some oil consumption on most vehicles, especially given that people are going 8 to 10k miles between oil changes and that causes a low oil level making timing chains that are much longer today to drive OHC to run hot and stretch never mind the damage to plastic guides. #2 is the fact that engines are lasting far longer so problems that didn't seem all that common are a problem when you think about the fact that cars didn't even have more than 5 digits on the odometer. With your pistons not wearing out so fast other components can show up where before the engine would burn so much oil long before it needed a timing chain and car was at the scrap yard.
Great video Ivan! The cam/crank waveform sealed the deal. But the higher compression on the in cylinder waveform from the bad engine was also caused by the intake being advanced. The intake valve closes early, trapping more air in the cylinder. The additional air raised the compression. I enjoyed this video! It was a good one!
Hello again Ivan! You were wondering why you were seeing the pressure spike near the end of the exhaust stroke. Your reasoning was that the intake valve opening should have bled off that pressure. The reason why that was not the case, was because if remember correctly, most of the OEM cams in LS series engines have negative overlap. Meaning the exhaust valve closes, then there are a number of degrees of crankshaft rotation before the intake valve begins to open. Also I would like to say that I really liked your desire to do the calculations and determine how many teeth off the timing chain moved. That’s the type of thing I always like to do too. But I can tell you from my own experience counting the teeth and figuring the degree per tooth on a number of engines, 15-18 degrees per tooth on the crank sprocket seems to be the average range, if my memory is correct. I was quite surprised that the cam timing advanced however, especially on a pushrod V8 with only one cam. I would have expected it to retard. 49 degrees advanced is crazy, I’m surprised the intake valves didn’t hit the pistons.
FYI U do NOT need to drop the pan to replace/remove the oil pump. A bit trick but remove oil pickup to pump bolts. Separate pickup tube & pump & remove pump. Just replace O ring & don't drop bolts in the pan. Love watching you analyze a problem...
5.3 LS in Avalanche has only one bolt on pickup tube to oil pump. For easy way to change or remove oil pump... Leave oil pan alone, use thin 10mm open end, loosen bolt then collar loose bolt with thin safety wire so bolt can't fall in pan, spin off bolt with magnet. To reinstall bolt... take the bolt, drill hole in center of thread end of it, hot glue two foot guide wire in this hole, install pickup tube in oil pump pushing up o-ring so its seated, thread open end of hot-glued guide wire up through pickup tube hole through oil pump hole and up behind oil pump toward top of engine. With guide wire now behind and above oil pump, carefully pull up on this guide wire and the bolt (safety wire still attached) will move slowly up into pickup tube hole, finger twist guide wire counter-clockwise and bolt will then thread clockwise through puckup tube hole and into pump. Once threading started, pull guide and safety wires out of started bolt then tighten bolt with a thin 10mm open end into oil pump. Works great. Takes only a few minutes to setup and tighten, much better than anything else on UA-cam.
When the monitor on the dashboard says it's due for an oil change, it means it is way way way way overdue. Manufacturers lie to us and tell us you can change oil and very long drain intervals. And this one has gone beyond even that.
Don't vehicles come with a book that have recommendations in them like, for example, change the oil after the first 10'000 miles and then every 5'000 miles after that? Is the vehicle monitor set differently?
Zapped Sparky yes, but they put those recommendations to absurdly long time and miles intervals between oil changes. If you want your engine to last, don't follow them. Increase it considerably, 5000 miles is as long as I would ever let oil sit in an engine. And that is full synthetic. Don't do that and see what happens especially with things like variable valve controls, a little bit of sludge in the engine will ruin them
@@zappedsparky - Not sure about other vehicles, but on the '07-up ('07 GMT-900 platform, not "Classic") Silverados, the computer in the cluster uses an algorithm that changes the oil life based on the types of driving. Colder weather and short trips will send it to "0%" sooner than warm weather and long, highway trips.
Old school wrench here, sounded like a cam swap or plugged cat. But it must have been a heck of noise when it jumped timing, customers never tell the 100 percent of the story. Great job
Love, love, loved the in cylinder & correlation captures! From the start, it looked as if it was advanced from the incylinder capture. My daughter was looking at me like I was crazy.. as I was trying to decide between 2 or 3 teeth had jumped. Lol. I'm so glad you added the bonus footage at the end to put my mind at ease! 😅😂 Would love to know what was found when the cover was removed. ... I also swore this engine had the AFM (which I think you confirmed when you said you can disable 4 of the 8 cylinders), which are also known to have so many issues.
lol Cuba I couldn't resist a little math at the end ;) Now as far as the AFM goes, the scanner showed those PIDs, but I didn't spot any oil feed lines for those smart collapsible valve lifters, so I'm not sure if it had that silly system at all!
I just did one of these, you should throw in a melling HV oil pump while youre in there. i ended up removing the oil pan to play it safe with the o-ring on the pick up tube.
I have a over 250k on three GM 5.3 no serious issues. Fuel pump and wheel hubs. One has 375k runs like new uses no oil no leaks. Original motor. Someone ovrreved motor 7000 rpm . Teenagers racing truck? transmission use to tow bobcat trailer. New one had 6.0 LS excellent motors. Got rid of stupid diesel engine s. Excellent work Thanks
They are good engines, but I'd stay away from the cylinder deactivation models. We mostly see them in the shop with oil leaks and water pumps, but nothing major.
46 degrees advanced, wow. 9 hours by the book so around 5ish hours real time which isn't too bad. Haha, yeah, I routinely use RockAuto for pictures and part verification. Thanks Ivan!
In cylinder transducer told a big part of the story in my opinion. Some measurements with the rulers can determine how far out it is but definitely dont hurt grabbing cam and crank
The more things change, the more they stay the same. On the older Chevrolet small-block V8s built before 1974, you had to remove the oil pan to remove the timing cover because there was a reinforced lip that held the front oil pan seal on the timing cover. On the 1974 and newer engines, it was redesigned so you could remove the timing cover without dropping the oil pan.
Always love the bonus footage at the end of a timing diagnosis. I guessed 2 teeth advanced while watching, was a bit lazy to do the math, thanks for doing it for us 😁
46 degrees is a whole bunch. Any chance of a collision inside? Might be worth a leak down test of the rest of the cylinders looking for bad valves - NO??
So maybe poor design by engineering not figuring in the possibility of failure while hitting the rev limiter trying to get out of the mud? May never know, but one thing is a fact. Having the knowledge, tools and the drive to always advance, will keep you on top of the automotive industry. Thanks again Ivan for helping us stay informed with the the most productive techniques to get straight to the proof and also the good and bad waveforms.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics in this industry where time is money, especially working for someone else, I have to do my research when I get home and finish cooking and cleaning and getting my little girl ready for bed and school the next day. I don't get paid for that. And you know as well as I do that finding the right information on some vehicles especially a newer one "they" are still gathering information. So knowing circuit design and common failure points all come with experience. I am thankful that I found all of y'all's channels and for the knowledge y'all share. Y'all have made me a better tech. So thanks again and keep the videos rolling.
i could tell by the sound right away it was a jumped timing but its real nice to use the scope tp prove it. in the old days just pop the distributor cap off and roll #1 to tdc it was easy to tell. also you could roll #1 up to tdc in direction of rotation, then go opposite direction until the distributor moved. 1 inch on the balancer on a small block chevy (or most anything?) you better get a chain and gears in it.
@@pakliv3243 I disagree. If the valves would have been killed by the cylinders, it wouldn't run anymore and would have no compression in the cylinder. It is repairable by changing the chain and reset the timing.
Never seen this myself, but I remember hearing about a crankshaft reluctor wheel slipping. I work on many of these LS powered vehicles but never have to open them up for any work. Just the regular water pumps, etc... very interesting.
I enjoyed that. Going the extra step to find a known good pattern was key in this diagnosis. It sure made sense once that was available. Wow, that's going to be a costly job and lots of work too. The extra footage of the actual parts and the math was interesting as well. I like your passion to always learn.
GM those ding dongs. Why would they move the oil pump from the lowest part of the engine in the oil pan to in front of the timing chain lol. Good diagnosis Ivan. It was a given the pico scope was gonna find the problem for sure.
Is this a zero clearance motor? Maybe being off those few teeth isn't enough for valve/piston contact? I'd be curious about oil condition and most important, oil pressure. It seems some manufacturers lately have trouble building robust oil pumps. Heck, it's probably the most important part in the engine, why build it for longevity?
What if the new cam had been installed under the proverbial shade tree, and someone forgot to pull the pin on the new chain tensioner, or just left the old one in without resetting it. . Could either of those small mistakes have caused the problem you found? Great job in interpreting the data from the SnapOn scanner. Seems to work very well.
Ivan, Great case study, diagnosis, and video - thank you! Id love to see you do a video on the tear down and repair of this engine. God bless Paul (in MA)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics yes for sure...I am not gonna lie, it's challenging to pinpoint problems with timing on a 4 CMP sensor setup. I struggled with this one man. I just wanted to let you know that it's amazing how the timing...pardon the pun...of your video was like clockwork for one I was struggling with. You're one smart guy Ivan...keep on doing great things my friend!
2.8 teeth... Means that it jumped 2 teeth, and still has .8 of a tooth's stretch--- which you said each tooth is 16 degrees--- so there's about 12 degrees stretch in the chain, plus it jumped two teeth. Which tells me that the tensioner is likely broken, which gave it that 12 degree shift in the "longer" chain slack, and then it jumped the teeth from being too loose.. I'm kind of amazed that it still runs. lol
I believe he said it was a single cam engine - old school I guess?4 Or maybe he meant it didn't have separate intake and exhaust cams?? I'm not familiar with the engine.
veil67 on a 2011 LS? How many teeth would have to be jumped to hit the head on a truck 5.3L? More trivial yet, chain stretch on a 5.3 LS causing in tern all damage??? Internal damage, are you kidding me??? FFS. If you are pulling the motor out entirely, then the book time at 10hrs for a newb or crazy slow union mechanic are just about right. A home gamer with crappy garage tools and no lift on his first attempt could blindly knock this out in 10hrs. The drama is real.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics - I think it is, Yvan:) As you may be aware, I've ruffled a few feathers with this issue. I maintain that tower PSI much higher than the ones you've captured here are to be questioned, no matter how expensive the equipment that measured it. Thanks for the reply!
Great video Ivan! I’ve yet to do Cam/Crank correlation checks wot my pico buy this video definitely helps me understand the rulers and the setup just a bit more! Great find and study to diagnose the exact issue! Good stuff man! Thanks!!
That was an awesome explanation tying each channel to the corresponding signal. I have seen many correlations like yours but they skip things so I don't learn anything. :( You essentially taught me the very basics of engine timing. Thank you... Oh and the math you show is great. So now I can reproduce it by watching your video again. Scanner Danner does good math too. Recently saw one converting electric pulses on a fuel pump to RPM with math...
Super diagnostic ivan :-D, the scope is indeed a handy tool. Hopefully you have saved all the past timings from other vehicles on to a sd card or usb stick, very handy resource :-D
Dan'sMeTube he said 10hrs.....FFS, LOL....its a 2011 Chevy LS in a Truck..... A home gamer in his garage or driveway...or an intern at the dealership could rock this in well under 10hrs.....been there, done that, and nobody is getting a trophy at more than 10hrs.
@@iamblaineful I just posted this to show it's possible to remove the front cover without pulling the pan. The truck I did it on was a 4 X 4. Does that tell you anything or do I need to say more? Oh, where is your video?
Ivan, great video. I have done so many timing chains in GM engines. It's so easy to do and it's a piece of cake lol!! Will you be releasing any outcome of that truck with 3T advanced? Wondered!!! :) great Pico and known and bad comparison! Shows a lot how they do. Awesome!
Hi Josh! Which engines have you done timing chains on? The LS family looks to be quite a step up in complexity compared to the old school small block 5.0, 5.7, and 4.3 V6...
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I've worked on 5.7, 4.3 and 5.3 Vortec and 5.7 LS1 and LS3 engines. 4.3 has balance shaft part of the timing chain. The sprockets has to be 6:00 (big) and 12:00 (small) facing each other position. As for LS engines, there's 2 bolt (tensioner) holding the chain between the big and small sprocket. Just be sure they're at 6 and 12 facing each other. They're really simple design. I've worked on Ford 5.4 3 valve engines. 12 hour (book time) to do complete timing chain with phasers. Not hard either. Just some moderate difficulty with the wiring looms moving out of the way when valve covers off.
I did my 2011 5.3 timing chain and sprocket at 180,000 because I was fixing an oil pan leak and found a metal piece of the chain tensioner laying in the bottom of the pan. Engine ran like a Swiss watch but wasn't going to risk it.
Is it necessary to drop the pan on the LS to unbolt the pickup tube from the oil pump? I don't have much experience with this engine but I have much experience on the Ford 5.4 Triton. The manual for the Ford 5.4 states the oil pan must be dropped to r&r the oil pump but anyone with experience knows it's very simple to do without removing or even lowering the oil pan. Just wondering if the same is true for the LS?
Are you fixing this truck, if you are, I hope you do a video on it. I know I have watch all of your videos at least twice. Keep up the great work and have a great Christmas and New Year!
You can hear the chain lol that's crazy. Must be the tensioner is bad or the chain is just worn real bad. The 0.2 tooth discrepancy is a direct result of chain slop.
Hi Ivan. I see your using a pico scope now. That’s great. Are you still using your homemade pressure transducer? I just made my own and still learning to use it. I’m using it in my verus pro. After watching videos using the pico I can see a huge advantage compared to the verus.
Not really as conclusive, since what would you look for on the timing light? There is no distributor, and the PCM is in control of the ignition timing...
Good old pico wins again ,well done Ivan.maan 9hours on the books can they get any more badly engineered for fixing..the Engine in that beast looked soo innocent and tons of work room..yikes
I'm not sure what sample rate that scope has at that slow of a timebase. A faster timebase usually means faster sample rate meaning you capture finer detail (frequency) in the waveform. You can actually miss a lot of details with too low of a sampling rate.
www.picotech.com/support/viewtopic.php?t=22051 it depends on the scope you're using. The maximum frequency you can capture is 1/2 the sampling rate. This gives you only 2 points per cycle which is pretty bad so you usually want the sample rate at least 4x the max frequency you want to capture. This is important with things like voltage spikes and transients thata are very short. A slow timebase might completely miss these and show you a flat line while there may be a lot of spikes in it. You can try e.g. capturing ignition coil pulses by having the probe near the spark plug wires or measuring the primary of the coil. There are usually pretty big high frequency spikes in there. Adjust the timebase to a very fast one (1-10ms/div) and compare it to a slow one like you have here and you'll see the difference.
Chevy: A tensionerless system has worked great on our in-block-cam engines for 60 years. Let’s add in a tensioner.
LethalMercury didn’t even know they had them. Thought only ohc or dohc had them
@@Thermool it's not oil driven kind of a leaf spring looking affair just did one on a 6.2 i'm not impressed by the design
don't forget their pathetic attempt at a tensioner on the 4.3
mikeyp916 don’t forget their pathetic attempt at a 4.3.
what you got against 4.3s?? I like mine 😆😆
I have noticed as time goes on that having to do timing components on newer vehicles is becoming more labor intensive. It proves that training is so important now to diagnose these issues right the first time and be spot on to not have to do these types of jobs twice. Great video Ivan ! 👍
So true! It's unfortunate they made the chain setup now with use of a tensioner, but also that oil pump placement makes this job a NIGHTMARE if it's 4x4! There was nothing wrong with the old setup, that worked for generations on end! It's all about complicating things & more time & money put out to repair.
I have some theories as to why you are seeing it more these days: #1 is lack of oil changes and oil level monitoring by the consumer. Cars run so well these days without any maintenance that people are also going far too long without oil changes on vehicles with tiny oil vvt passages. Also pcv systems are bypassing more oil due to ultra low friction piston rings and you will find some oil consumption on most vehicles, especially given that people are going 8 to 10k miles between oil changes and that causes a low oil level making timing chains that are much longer today to drive OHC to run hot and stretch never mind the damage to plastic guides. #2 is the fact that engines are lasting far longer so problems that didn't seem all that common are a problem when you think about the fact that cars didn't even have more than 5 digits on the odometer. With your pistons not wearing out so fast other components can show up where before the engine would burn so much oil long before it needed a timing chain and car was at the scrap yard.
Worst! alldata is unreliable when giving true labor ops! They are always lower.
the power of the scope .didnt even get dirty . great work
Great video Ivan! The cam/crank waveform sealed the deal. But the higher compression on the in cylinder waveform from the bad engine was also caused by the intake being advanced. The intake valve closes early, trapping more air in the cylinder. The additional air raised the compression. I enjoyed this video! It was a good one!
Yup excellent analysis, I agree! The peak pressure at idle was like twice as high as the good engine. Surprised this thing ran at all, and even drove!
Hello again Ivan! You were wondering why you were seeing the pressure spike near the end of the exhaust stroke. Your reasoning was that the intake valve opening should have bled off that pressure. The reason why that was not the case, was because if remember correctly, most of the OEM cams in LS series engines have negative overlap. Meaning the exhaust valve closes, then there are a number of degrees of crankshaft rotation before the intake valve begins to open.
Also I would like to say that I really liked your desire to do the calculations and determine how many teeth off the timing chain moved. That’s the type of thing I always like to do too. But I can tell you from my own experience counting the teeth and figuring the degree per tooth on a number of engines, 15-18 degrees per tooth on the crank sprocket seems to be the average range, if my memory is correct.
I was quite surprised that the cam timing advanced however, especially on a pushrod V8 with only one cam. I would have expected it to retard. 49 degrees advanced is crazy, I’m surprised the intake valves didn’t hit the pistons.
Ah that is some fantastic info on the "negative valve overlap"! Totally explains the data. Thank you for that tidbit :)
FYI U do NOT need to drop the pan to replace/remove the oil pump. A bit trick but remove oil pickup to pump bolts. Separate pickup tube & pump & remove pump. Just replace O ring & don't drop bolts in the pan. Love watching you analyze a problem...
5.3 LS in Avalanche has only one bolt on pickup tube to oil pump. For easy way to change or remove oil pump... Leave oil pan alone, use thin 10mm open end, loosen bolt then collar loose bolt with thin safety wire so bolt can't fall in pan, spin off bolt with magnet. To reinstall bolt... take the bolt, drill hole in center of thread end of it, hot glue two foot guide wire in this hole, install pickup tube in oil pump pushing up o-ring so its seated, thread open end of hot-glued guide wire up through pickup tube hole through oil pump hole and up behind oil pump toward top of engine. With guide wire now behind and above oil pump, carefully pull up on this guide wire and the bolt (safety wire still attached) will move slowly up into pickup tube hole, finger twist guide wire counter-clockwise and bolt will then thread clockwise through puckup tube hole and into pump. Once threading started, pull guide and safety wires out of started bolt then tighten bolt with a thin 10mm open end into oil pump. Works great. Takes only a few minutes to setup and tighten, much better than anything else on UA-cam.
As always, your repair videos are filled with detailed, educational info. Thanks!!
Thanks Michael! We're all learning together :)
When the monitor on the dashboard says it's due for an oil change, it means it is way way way way overdue. Manufacturers lie to us and tell us you can change oil and very long drain intervals. And this one has gone beyond even that.
Or someone hasn't bothered to plug the computer in and reset it
@@leexgx - That can be cleared in the DIC by holding in the button with the "check" mark on it, when in the oil life screen. No scanner needed.
Don't vehicles come with a book that have recommendations in them like, for example, change the oil after the first 10'000 miles and then every 5'000 miles after that? Is the vehicle monitor set differently?
Zapped Sparky yes, but they put those recommendations to absurdly long time and miles intervals between oil changes. If you want your engine to last, don't follow them. Increase it considerably, 5000 miles is as long as I would ever let oil sit in an engine. And that is full synthetic. Don't do that and see what happens especially with things like variable valve controls, a little bit of sludge in the engine will ruin them
@@zappedsparky - Not sure about other vehicles, but on the '07-up ('07 GMT-900 platform, not "Classic") Silverados, the computer in the cluster uses an algorithm that changes the oil life based on the types of driving. Colder weather and short trips will send it to "0%" sooner than warm weather and long, highway trips.
Excellent diagnosis and prognosis. Full house.
Thanks for sharing and best regards from the UK.
Fantastic video Ivan you certainly can’t doubt the value of a scope Great detective work
Old school wrench here, sounded like a cam swap or plugged cat. But it must have been a heck of noise when it jumped timing, customers never tell the 100 percent of the story. Great job
Love, love, loved the in cylinder & correlation captures! From the start, it looked as if it was advanced from the incylinder capture. My daughter was looking at me like I was crazy.. as I was trying to decide between 2 or 3 teeth had jumped. Lol. I'm so glad you added the bonus footage at the end to put my mind at ease! 😅😂
Would love to know what was found when the cover was removed. ... I also swore this engine had the AFM (which I think you confirmed when you said you can disable 4 of the 8 cylinders), which are also known to have so many issues.
lol Cuba I couldn't resist a little math at the end ;) Now as far as the AFM goes, the scanner showed those PIDs, but I didn't spot any oil feed lines for those smart collapsible valve lifters, so I'm not sure if it had that silly system at all!
Using the dining room chair as a step ladder adds a classy touch to the video. Lol keep up the great job and thanks for the lesson. Much appreciated
I just did one of these, you should throw in a melling HV oil pump while youre in there. i ended up removing the oil pan to play it safe with the o-ring on the pick up tube.
I have a
over 250k on three GM 5.3 no serious issues. Fuel pump and wheel hubs.
One has 375k runs like new uses no oil no leaks. Original motor. Someone ovrreved motor 7000 rpm . Teenagers racing truck? transmission use to tow bobcat trailer.
New one had 6.0 LS excellent motors.
Got rid of stupid diesel engine s.
Excellent work Thanks
They are good engines, but I'd stay away from the cylinder deactivation models. We mostly see them in the shop with oil leaks and water pumps, but nothing major.
10 hrs is a fun fix. Pico evidence fairly conclusive. Not very repair friendly. Great video and job well done.
Cool , I was just wondering what to watch.. PHAD just popped up 😎
Fantastic choice! Ivan is one smart tech!
Awesome video Ivan! Nice to see the entire process including the repair time and tips at the end, good job once again and keep up the great work!
46 degrees advanced, wow. 9 hours by the book so around 5ish hours real time which isn't too bad. Haha, yeah, I routinely use RockAuto for pictures and part verification. Thanks Ivan!
Like little Christmas presents every time you post.
If that's the case, then the "Christmas Special" will be a BIG PRESENT haha :)
Will be waiting!
Great video Ivan. One day I'll have me one of those PICO scopes, and pressure transducers.
Check out The Logical Canuck. He has many build items for the in cylinder pressure transducer. At very cost effective prices.
@@billrimmer5596 - thanks for the plug, Bill:-)
Haven't seen you around of late, was hoping you were ok...
logical canuck I am thank u!! Always love your vids. I want to build some of your really neat projects!!
In cylinder transducer told a big part of the story in my opinion. Some measurements with the rulers can determine how far out it is but definitely dont hurt grabbing cam and crank
Yup Pico is awesome... 4 channels all the way Mike!
The more things change, the more they stay the same. On the older Chevrolet small-block V8s built before 1974, you had to remove the oil pan to remove the timing cover because there was a reinforced lip that held the front oil pan seal on the timing cover. On the 1974 and newer engines, it was redesigned so you could remove the timing cover without dropping the oil pan.
Wow did not know that...back to the drawing board haha
Joseph Wash I have never dropped an oil pan to remove the cover in any small block. You just have to know what you're doing.
Ahh, Bonus Footage! Like an old friend! PHAD without Bonus Footage = Koolaid without sugar
Nice diagnosis Ivan!
Hi my name is David and have been following ur vids excellent diagnostic approaches to dtcs love this channel
Always love the bonus footage at the end of a timing diagnosis. I guessed 2 teeth advanced while watching, was a bit lazy to do the math, thanks for doing it for us 😁
It does have VVT... Just not the kind you want to see.
46 degrees is a whole bunch. Any chance of a collision inside? Might be worth a leak down test of the rest of the cylinders looking for bad valves - NO??
Dangit! I want to see what's under that timing cover! Before the Pico data, I was thinking plugged cat...
I was thinking bad crank or cam sensor.
So maybe poor design by engineering not figuring in the possibility of failure while hitting the rev limiter trying to get out of the mud? May never know, but one thing is a fact. Having the knowledge, tools and the drive to always advance, will keep you on top of the automotive industry. Thanks again Ivan for helping us stay informed with the the most productive techniques to get straight to the proof and also the good and bad waveforms.
Thanks for the kind words Shaun, you are absolutely right about this industry. If you are not advancing, you are quickly falling behind!
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics in this industry where time is money, especially working for someone else, I have to do my research when I get home and finish cooking and cleaning and getting my little girl ready for bed and school the next day. I don't get paid for that. And you know as well as I do that finding the right information on some vehicles especially a newer one "they" are still gathering information. So knowing circuit design and common failure points all come with experience. I am thankful that I found all of y'all's channels and for the knowledge y'all share. Y'all have made me a better tech. So thanks again and keep the videos rolling.
Be careful comparing those two trucks' cam timing, (though the 08 is obviously out of time) as they threw a cam phaser on the 5.3s in 2010 I believe.
The bonus math was sweet. Thanks for sharing.
i could tell by the sound right away it was a jumped timing but its real nice to use the scope tp prove it. in the old days just pop the distributor cap off and roll #1 to tdc it was easy to tell. also you could roll #1 up to tdc in direction of rotation, then go opposite direction until the distributor moved. 1 inch on the balancer on a small block chevy (or most anything?) you better get a chain and gears in it.
Thanks Ivan. I did one a couple of months ago that was 3 teeth off. Tensioner failed and the chain ate everything it could touch.
Was it still running?
I enjoyed your splendid and most educational demonstration your the man😊
Ivan, please let us know what the final repair was. Thanks.
Michael Herbert I agree, get the job and fix it yourself
Need new engine
???
@@pakliv3243 I disagree. If the valves would have been killed by the cylinders, it wouldn't run anymore and would have no compression in the cylinder. It is repairable by changing the chain and reset the timing.
We need to solve the mud issue too! Was she in a flood?
Nice job a good scope is well worth the investment and understanding how to use it. Gold star for you !🌟
Never seen this myself, but I remember hearing about a crankshaft reluctor wheel slipping. I work on many of these LS powered vehicles but never have to open them up for any work. Just the regular water pumps, etc... very interesting.
Most likely is the timing chain tensioner let go and the chain jumped.
I enjoyed that. Going the extra step to find a known good pattern was key in this diagnosis. It sure made sense once that was available. Wow, that's going to be a costly job and lots of work too. The extra footage of the actual parts and the math was interesting as well. I like your passion to always learn.
GM those ding dongs. Why would they move the oil pump from the lowest part of the engine in the oil pan to in front of the timing chain lol. Good diagnosis Ivan. It was a given the pico scope was gonna find the problem for sure.
The dry sump motors have two oil pumps in that location, aka LS7
More often than not, it's melted cam and or crank sensor wires, not necessarily the sensors themselves.
Probably not because both cam and crank sensor waveforms look just fine. It's just they are out of sync because of a mechanical issue.
@@Discretesignals With more than 100,000 miles on that truck, I'm surprised a timing kit wasn't installed sooner.
Is this a zero clearance motor? Maybe being off those few teeth isn't enough for valve/piston contact? I'd be curious about oil condition and most important, oil pressure. It seems some manufacturers lately have trouble building robust oil pumps. Heck, it's probably the most important part in the engine, why build it for longevity?
Well done again, Ivan.
Never saw 1 jump and ADVANCE.. but hey, your numbers don't lie!
So the crank skipped 315 degrees to end up 45 degrees advanced? I don’t disagree with the diag. The scope proves it.
What if the new cam had been installed under the proverbial shade tree, and someone forgot to pull the pin on the new chain tensioner, or just left the old one in without resetting it. . Could either of those small mistakes have caused the problem you found? Great job in interpreting the data from the SnapOn scanner. Seems to work very well.
Ivan,
Great case study, diagnosis, and video - thank you! Id love to see you do a video on the tear down and repair of this engine.
God bless
Paul (in MA)
If I get my hands on it, you know the camera will be rolling!
Ivan to the rescue.
Thanks for this Ivan...helpful in giving me a direction on another vehicle in for issues concerning timing. You have one great mind man!
Thanks Pauly what engine are you working on? Is it a GM?
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Ford 3.5L EcoBoost 🙃👍
Oh cool...they are torque monsters when they run right :)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics yes for sure...I am not gonna lie, it's challenging to pinpoint problems with timing on a 4 CMP sensor setup. I struggled with this one man. I just wanted to let you know that it's amazing how the timing...pardon the pun...of your video was like clockwork for one I was struggling with. You're one smart guy Ivan...keep on doing great things my friend!
Only slightly less pain than changing a water pump of a Ford 3.7L/3.5L (on the Cyclone engune the water pump is BEHIND the front cover.
2.8 teeth... Means that it jumped 2 teeth, and still has .8 of a tooth's stretch--- which you said each tooth is 16 degrees--- so there's about 12 degrees stretch in the chain, plus it jumped two teeth. Which tells me that the tensioner is likely broken, which gave it that 12 degree shift in the "longer" chain slack, and then it jumped the teeth from being too loose.. I'm kind of amazed that it still runs. lol
So did it just jump on the drivers side or did it jump on the crank and both cams are off
I believe he said it was a single cam engine - old school I guess?4
Or maybe he meant it didn't have separate intake and exhaust cams?? I'm not familiar with the engine.
It's a single cam push rod engine.
Here's a 5.3 timing chain.
ua-cam.com/video/pfKS49NhZbI/v-deo.html
Very slick young man brovo
Thank you Ivan. Good job. Can you share your known bad and good Pico waveforms? I appreciate your videos. Have a blessed and safe week.
from the intake
noice when throttling up , clearly
it was bad chain timing , hopefully it didn’t do internal damage
veil67 on a 2011 LS? How many teeth would have to be jumped to hit the head on a truck 5.3L? More trivial yet, chain stretch on a 5.3 LS causing in tern all damage??? Internal damage, are you kidding me??? FFS. If you are pulling the motor out entirely, then the book time at 10hrs for a newb or crazy slow union mechanic are just about right. A home gamer with crappy garage tools and no lift on his first attempt could blindly knock this out in 10hrs. The drama is real.
FINALLY, @ 13:30 tower (54 PSI) numbers that make sense for an idling engine, full manifold vacuum!
Seems logical :)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics - I think it is, Yvan:)
As you may be aware, I've ruffled a few feathers with this issue. I maintain that tower PSI much higher than the ones you've captured here are to be questioned, no matter how expensive the equipment that measured it.
Thanks for the reply!
Great video Ivan! I’ve yet to do Cam/Crank correlation checks wot my pico buy this video definitely helps me understand the rulers and the setup just a bit more! Great find and study to diagnose the exact issue! Good stuff man! Thanks!!
That's awesome Greg, the Pico is a fantastic tool!
That was an awesome explanation tying each channel to the corresponding signal. I have seen many correlations like yours but they skip things so I don't learn anything. :(
You essentially taught me the very basics of engine timing. Thank you... Oh and the math you show is great. So now I can reproduce it by watching your video again. Scanner Danner does good math too. Recently saw one converting electric pulses on a fuel pump to RPM with math...
Super diagnostic ivan :-D, the scope is indeed a handy tool.
Hopefully you have saved all the past timings from other vehicles on to a sd card or usb stick, very handy resource :-D
nice diag ivan looking for part 2 or what caused the skip in teeth usually those lifters have problems
I wonder what an old school vacuum gauge would do on this? I bet that needle would be jumping all over the place.
Doesn't your known good black Chevy pickup have VVT? Not sure if that would matter in your comparison.
Great video super informative! Thanks for spending the time to record and post it.
Glad you enjoyed it, Joe!
I've replaced a timing chain on an 05 5.3 Chevy without removing the oil pan. FYI
ua-cam.com/video/pfKS49NhZbI/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/83dQ5aVvsqk/v-deo.html
Dan'sMeTube he said 10hrs.....FFS, LOL....its a 2011 Chevy LS in a Truck..... A home gamer in his garage or driveway...or an intern at the dealership could rock this in well under 10hrs.....been there, done that, and nobody is getting a trophy at more than 10hrs.
@@iamblaineful I just posted this to show it's possible to remove the front cover without pulling the pan. The truck I did it on was a 4 X 4. Does that tell you anything or do I need to say more?
Oh, where is your video?
You said things were packed with mud. Does the truck have an external crank sensor? Could the computer be getting bad input?
Where can i get the pressure transducer?? ..and how much is it??..
Ivan, great video. I have done so many timing chains in GM engines. It's so easy to do and it's a piece of cake lol!! Will you be releasing any outcome of that truck with 3T advanced? Wondered!!! :) great Pico and known and bad comparison! Shows a lot how they do. Awesome!
Hi Josh! Which engines have you done timing chains on? The LS family looks to be quite a step up in complexity compared to the old school small block 5.0, 5.7, and 4.3 V6...
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I've worked on 5.7, 4.3 and 5.3 Vortec and 5.7 LS1 and LS3 engines. 4.3 has balance shaft part of the timing chain. The sprockets has to be 6:00 (big) and 12:00 (small) facing each other position. As for LS engines, there's 2 bolt (tensioner) holding the chain between the big and small sprocket. Just be sure they're at 6 and 12 facing each other. They're really simple design.
I've worked on Ford 5.4 3 valve engines. 12 hour (book time) to do complete timing chain with phasers. Not hard either. Just some moderate difficulty with the wiring looms moving out of the way when valve covers off.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Ivan, I'm sure Mitchell has information on how the sprockets line up each other.
I did my 2011 5.3 timing chain and sprocket at 180,000 because I was fixing an oil pan leak and found a metal piece of the chain tensioner laying in the bottom of the pan. Engine ran like a Swiss watch but wasn't going to risk it.
planned obsole...........................
awesome vid ivein . looking at the first wave from i was calling a sticking valve. was it a screeched chain in the end ?
Great content Ivan!! Keep going
Good information for mechanics too many damn commercials incredible
That’s really strange on these engines.
Is it necessary to drop the pan on the LS to unbolt the pickup tube from the oil pump? I don't have much experience with this engine but I have much experience on the Ford 5.4 Triton. The manual for the Ford 5.4 states the oil pan must be dropped to r&r the oil pump but anyone with experience knows it's very simple to do without removing or even lowering the oil pan. Just wondering if the same is true for the LS?
You are great Ivan!
As always i think i know,but going to wait till Ivan gets it right...
Good diagnosis. 🇨🇦
Are you fixing this truck, if you are, I hope you do a video on it. I know I have watch all of your videos at least twice. Keep up the great work and have a great Christmas and New Year!
Nice ! Ivan, possible plugged cat too ?
You can hear the chain lol that's crazy. Must be the tensioner is bad or the chain is just worn real bad. The 0.2 tooth discrepancy is a direct result of chain slop.
Hi Ivan. I see your using a pico scope now. That’s great. Are you still using your homemade pressure transducer?
I just made my own and still learning to use it. I’m using it in my verus pro. After watching videos using the pico I can see a huge advantage compared to the verus.
Yes Rafael, that was the home made transducer hooked up to the Pico. It's my favorite scope, have been using it for 2 years!
Ditto what others have said,... it would be great to see inside the timing cover
Let's Find Out
👍👍
Yeah the timing chains guide mess up on these sometimes bends push rods let it goe too long
Awesome information. Curious, how would you have proceeded if you did not have a known good truck to compare?
The pressure transducer alone was enough evidence of a significant timing problem :)
P0008 is a timing chain issue on the GM 3.6l engine. Sounds like P0016 is similar
P0008 is a timing code on any vehicle
I thought it was P0011 or P0017 ?
Great job Ivan 👍
If the cam pin is sheared pull the cam. Bearings may have spun in block. Only fix is new engine
Pip5168 or 19na212
Thanks form México!!
For the diyer couldn't the same conclusion have been reached with a basic code reader and a timing light?
Not really as conclusive, since what would you look for on the timing light? There is no distributor, and the PCM is in control of the ignition timing...
Do gm pushrod engines have a form of vvt?
gen 4 L.S
Any update on the mystery Lexus?
Nope...will let you know if there is one!
Great video Ivan!
Glad you enjoyed it! Appreciate the feedback 👍
Nice haircut Ivan!! Didn't chevy have those available on line?????? lol
Thank you and that just turned my stomach
Good old pico wins again ,well done Ivan.maan 9hours on the books can they get any more badly engineered for fixing..the Engine in that beast looked soo innocent and tons of work room..yikes
My truck is doing this. Loss of power on the low end and gets spark knock at high end. Mid range is ok. This is odd
Crank positioning sensor.. show me that procedure...
I'm not sure what sample rate that scope has at that slow of a timebase. A faster timebase usually means faster sample rate meaning you capture finer detail (frequency) in the waveform. You can actually miss a lot of details with too low of a sampling rate.
Great point! Can you tell me what the sampling frequency is based on the settings that I used in this video?
www.picotech.com/support/viewtopic.php?t=22051 it depends on the scope you're using. The maximum frequency you can capture is 1/2 the sampling rate. This gives you only 2 points per cycle which is pretty bad so you usually want the sample rate at least 4x the max frequency you want to capture. This is important with things like voltage spikes and transients thata are very short. A slow timebase might completely miss these and show you a flat line while there may be a lot of spikes in it. You can try e.g. capturing ignition coil pulses by having the probe near the spark plug wires or measuring the primary of the coil. There are usually pretty big high frequency spikes in there. Adjust the timebase to a very fast one (1-10ms/div) and compare it to a slow one like you have here and you'll see the difference.
Nice video I liked it a lot but I was waiting on the part 3 LOL