I had a lot of thoughts listening to this episode, since I love exercising and have done it since I have memory. I think the first thing that should come to our minds on why are we exercising is for health reasons. And the very cynic view of the quoted philosophers who, basically, say that living longer is vane and worthless can be addressed by saying that this is not living longer just for the sake of it, but for having a better quality of life overall; otherwise we should all die now because, who gives? we will die anyway. The fact that exercise is sometimes uncomfortable is, also sometimes, the point. Some people like to work hard for something to achieve and know that discomfort is the way to reach that and feeling fulfilled with the goal. Mirrors on gyms are there mainly for the purpose of improving the technique in which people exercise. Gym instructors encourage people to look at that: the angles, the form, how you lift this or that. Not doing things properly would result in injury, so it is important to check that by looking at yourself in the mirror. Trying to look to see if the muscle is growing is like watching paint dry, so no, that's not the reason people do it. I would add a more positive note on the community aspect of all kinds of exercise. You don't need to be speaking to feel the company of others. We can run together, in silence, then have a good talk. I cycle a lot and it's great to work together and support each other, but is also great to just climb at your own pace and be alone trying to reach a personal goal. In the gym is the same, but I also can add that people do talk about everything there, including politics, math and philosophy. At least at the gym I go to, you can hear people talking mundane and also deep things. Most of the times the looks are the consequence of a different goal. You just want to go faster, be stronger, to reach a certain goal in any exercise. Then, the body shapes itself into what is needed. The body of a 100m runner is not the same as the one of a marathon runner. The former needs big muscles to do the 100m, the latter doesn't need that much muscle because it is unnecessary weight for their goal. And both are fit. Both are healthy. Both, even if it's just for a hobby, work for their goal and that is a satisfaction for them. Endurance sports teach people to breathe in a certain way and focus on it, that's why some see it as a form of meditation. Is not only about clearing the mind but about just breathing consciously. Sorry for the long post but this is a topic very close to my heart and just want you to know there are more positive things about the community and the fulfilment people feel exercising than what the usual stereotypes would show.
Great discussion, covering a lot of ground. For most of my adult life I have exercised, running competitively when younger and cycling when older (I'm now 61) - and I've loved it. This discussion took me back to my high school days when I was a runner, but enjoyed hanging out with arty types who loathed exercise - they were highly entertaining and good fun. I particularly enjoyed the mind / body considerations, towards the end - it's not something I've thought about before - but I will now.
How we're socialised into execising as children is important. The 'masturbortorium' of the gym can be comforting for people such as myself who were coerced into group exercise from the ages of five to eighteen and weren't naturally good at it. In school, exercise is introduced as a hierarchy in which those who are naturally adept and/or practice sports outside of gym class excel, and the others flounder without any assistance from their atheletic peers or the gym teacher. I wasn't taught alternative methods of exercise or given any explanation as to why it would be beneficial for me as a growing person - instead, the unspoken assumption was that it revealed a natural superiority for a privileged few. When I became interested in exercising in my mid/late twenties, the last thing I wanted to do was be a part of a group activity and relive the sense of inadequacy I experienced for years in gym class. So when philosophers talk about the 'masturbortorium' or the factory mill of a gym, it would be prudent to consider that solitude, however mirrored or fluorescent, can be a luxury and a relief.
The conversation on running reminded me why I love running. So strange to hear two people who hate something you love describe it perfectly but in a negative way. Then agreeing with them and yet feel that love for the activity swelling up from within.
Thank you so much guys. This is one of the favourite things I’ve ever listened to. That is to say in having a sound to fill the silence this episode more so than my own voice or that of others or sounds of instruments is one of my to-date favourite sounds. I love hearing the new concept of pink collar. Many thanks. Saveself99
I think it all depends on what your goals are. I've always enjoyed jogging, but I prefer jogging on the trails. One big reason for that is that I'm alone, so I only have to deal with my own expectatons. Jogging may be good exercise, but I do it because it's fun... or, can be fun, at least for me. Like everything else, it depends on circumstances. When I jog on the road, or a track,... around others... from time to time people have made fun of me because I run too slow, or somehow otherwise about my running is 'not right'. And no, I, like 99% of all people, was never going to be an Olympic marathoner. In the woods, if I get too winded, I just stop and walk for a while. I only have to deal with my own responses. I don't have to deal with the responses of others around me. I think this is something that people who are always around other people perhaps don't think about much. But something like myself, who is alone most of time... well, it's different. Like, I've always liked the cigarette ads... and smoking can be fun too. But I haven't smoked much in the last twenty years or so. Largely I only smoke... and only a few puffs... when I'm alone with my cigarette ads. I'm 61, and the cigarette ads I've always collected largely concern a society that doesn't exist anymore,... where smoking was a relatively well accepted social habit. But I wouldn't characterize smoking that way any longer. In my favorite cigarette ads everyone seems to respond positively to smoking... well, yes, they're trying to sell cigarettes. But there's no guarantee that you can find an appropriate group to act out with that will respond in a manner that you'll like, and want to repeat. This is not dissimilar to jogging on the street or on the track. There are elements of the experience that are dependent on the environment, and there are elements of the environment you can't control. So, in one setting... time, and/or place... a particular activity can be fun, but in another time or place it's not fun. The value associated with the activity isn't always entirely intrinsic in the activity itself. Of course, for me, 'fun' is an important goal. For someone else, the goal(s) may be different, but whatever the goals are there's probably going to be some dependency on the environment as to whether those goals can be sufficiently achieved with any activity.
There's something wrong with your channel. The save button on the video is missing. It is present on all other videos. I can't save it to my lists and watch it later.
Those older people may just be trying to put muscle on so they can continue to take care of themselves. You can’t really know their motivations without speaking to them first.
Very interesting and entertaining video; I appreciate your podcast a lot (and I was listening to this episode while running lol). Nevertheless, I think you make a little confusion without properly distinguishing between physical exercises and sports. I find interesting the reflections of the gym and fitness as this narcissistic activity in the public space, as well the fact of doing it for body models and beauty standards, but also true that it can be seen as an activity that gives people benefits and new mental states similar to meditation to some extend, I find myself in this given my personal experience. However, I would make a clear distinction with sports because I believe that sports are a distinct activity. If exercise is a narcissistic activity, I see sport closer to arts and activity as pottery, for instance, or zen conception, where there is an embodiment of the discipline. I think that sports are much more the art of body movements applied to close systems (that are the rules and objective of the single sport), I see sport as a research field, an ongoing development of the discipline of expression with new tactics and body combinations. Also, I think very interesting about sports is the individual interpretation of every athlete according to psycho-physical characteristics. I see this total embodiment towards the research of new expressions that occurs in sports quite different compared to physical exercise and fitness, where arguably is more about narcissism due to social beauty standards or health reasons lacking all other aspects of sports.
Having just watched the World Track And Field Championships in Budapest . That and the Olympics are my must Sports events to watch. Indeed, on a different level than the average, get off the couch and do some exercise to ease the mind and help the body, as suggested here. After 24/7 training, the athletes are in the form of the Gods, exhausted at the finishing line, falling to the ground, in tears and disbelief, sending prayers of thanks to the sky, moving the spirit of the country upon winning and by competitors for setting world records. that non-Gods could never even imagine or believe possible. That is where, through the living reality. one sees much of what many modern-day philosophers deny. An absolute religious commitment to a dream, physical fitness to the max, Spirit ( collective and Individual) sacrifice and yes, are Gods with existential mindsets dismissed for a more lazy mental way of existing. Where it is for entertainment or social value rather than, as real athletes do, exercise to win. It is harder for an athlete to win gold than for Elle to get tenure.
It sounds good but there are clear contradictions to this. Plenty of soldiers in excellent shape have done terrible things to citizens caught in warfare. How may people in good shape end up committing violent acts on others and/or themselves.
@@vegansportsbar7453 I guess that demonstrates that mastering own body enables one to execute what one's soul desires. Good and bad, is a subject of morals and here I agree that it is bad when soldiers go beyond their military duties, or anybody commiting violence in a non-defence way
@@ivane945 beyond their military duties? Plenty have been ordered to kill as many as possible. It's called Total War. And it's ambiguous if one is desirous in their 'soul' to do something a coercive situation demands of them, like drafted warfare. But yeah, exercise is a good thing.
Oh hell yeah, this is a subject that really interests me lately especially with the whole gym communities exploding and this obsession with body optimization under capitalism.
Mark Greif manages to cram the simple act of resistance training into a needlessly cynical perspective of human activity and declares it irrational and masturbatory. I bet he doesn't see the irony in that endeavor
This was a surprisingly good episode -- much more so than I could have guessed from the (as I thought at first) unpromising topic, or from the rather facile Baudrillard quote with which you started. However, the blatant, unthought ageism really rankled. You can do better than that. Please do.
@@OverthinkPodcastPhilosophy I would think it's pretty obvious, and in any case I don't have any desire to listen to it again, so I can't provide exact time stamps or articulate a more detailed response. There are several instances, the most egregious of which is the discussion of 60- and 70-year olds at the gym. They were all by David, whose contempt and lack of empathy toward old people is palpable, but Ellie didn't do anything to correct him. Thinking about it over the last few days, this left a bitter taste in my mouth, and it crystallized a number of other ways in which I have felt uncomfortable with your podcast in the past. I will not be listening to it anymore.
We're sorry to hear that this was your experience. That comment from David was a statement about seeing some older folks at the gym who appear to be denying their own aging process, as part of a criticism of our youth-obsessed culture: thus, it was meant actually as a critique of ageism. This is the episode quote: "I also often see at the gym of 60 and 70 year olds trying to submit their bodies to exercise routines that are clearly designed to lead to the ideal body type of a 20 or 30 year old, and thinking that they can still get there.There is a true denial of death.There is a denial of aging.There is a denial of decline that is sometimes a little bit uncomfortable to witness, in my case as a gym goer, because I know that's also where I'm heading."
I had a lot of thoughts listening to this episode, since I love exercising and have done it since I have memory.
I think the first thing that should come to our minds on why are we exercising is for health reasons. And the very cynic view of the quoted philosophers who, basically, say that living longer is vane and worthless can be addressed by saying that this is not living longer just for the sake of it, but for having a better quality of life overall; otherwise we should all die now because, who gives? we will die anyway.
The fact that exercise is sometimes uncomfortable is, also sometimes, the point. Some people like to work hard for something to achieve and know that discomfort is the way to reach that and feeling fulfilled with the goal.
Mirrors on gyms are there mainly for the purpose of improving the technique in which people exercise. Gym instructors encourage people to look at that: the angles, the form, how you lift this or that. Not doing things properly would result in injury, so it is important to check that by looking at yourself in the mirror. Trying to look to see if the muscle is growing is like watching paint dry, so no, that's not the reason people do it.
I would add a more positive note on the community aspect of all kinds of exercise. You don't need to be speaking to feel the company of others. We can run together, in silence, then have a good talk. I cycle a lot and it's great to work together and support each other, but is also great to just climb at your own pace and be alone trying to reach a personal goal. In the gym is the same, but I also can add that people do talk about everything there, including politics, math and philosophy. At least at the gym I go to, you can hear people talking mundane and also deep things.
Most of the times the looks are the consequence of a different goal. You just want to go faster, be stronger, to reach a certain goal in any exercise. Then, the body shapes itself into what is needed. The body of a 100m runner is not the same as the one of a marathon runner. The former needs big muscles to do the 100m, the latter doesn't need that much muscle because it is unnecessary weight for their goal. And both are fit. Both are healthy. Both, even if it's just for a hobby, work for their goal and that is a satisfaction for them.
Endurance sports teach people to breathe in a certain way and focus on it, that's why some see it as a form of meditation. Is not only about clearing the mind but about just breathing consciously.
Sorry for the long post but this is a topic very close to my heart and just want you to know there are more positive things about the community and the fulfilment people feel exercising than what the usual stereotypes would show.
👍
Great discussion, covering a lot of ground. For most of my adult life I have exercised, running competitively when younger and cycling when older (I'm now 61) - and I've loved it. This discussion took me back to my high school days when I was a runner, but enjoyed hanging out with arty types who loathed exercise - they were highly entertaining and good fun. I particularly enjoyed the mind / body considerations, towards the end - it's not something I've thought about before - but I will now.
How we're socialised into execising as children is important. The 'masturbortorium' of the gym can be comforting for people such as myself who were coerced into group exercise from the ages of five to eighteen and weren't naturally good at it. In school, exercise is introduced as a hierarchy in which those who are naturally adept and/or practice sports outside of gym class excel, and the others flounder without any assistance from their atheletic peers or the gym teacher. I wasn't taught alternative methods of exercise or given any explanation as to why it would be beneficial for me as a growing person - instead, the unspoken assumption was that it revealed a natural superiority for a privileged few. When I became interested in exercising in my mid/late twenties, the last thing I wanted to do was be a part of a group activity and relive the sense of inadequacy I experienced for years in gym class. So when philosophers talk about the 'masturbortorium' or the factory mill of a gym, it would be prudent to consider that solitude, however mirrored or fluorescent, can be a luxury and a relief.
The conversation on running reminded me why I love running. So strange to hear two people who hate something you love describe it perfectly but in a negative way. Then agreeing with them and yet feel that love for the activity swelling up from within.
Listening to this podcast while working out was such a psychological torture 😅 .I will probably require few days to recover
Hopefully you weren't running
@@sallywashington3691 😂
I was rowing and listening to this podcast...I quite enjoyed the cognitive dissonance, but I am a weirdo 🙂
Thank you so much guys. This is one of the favourite things I’ve ever listened to. That is to say in having a sound to fill the silence this episode more so than my own voice or that of others or sounds of instruments is one of my to-date favourite sounds.
I love hearing the new concept of pink collar.
Many thanks.
Saveself99
Big butts save lives how weirdly cool is that
The weird thing is that they'll do an Orgasm episode pre-tenure.....but not a Butts episode!
I think it all depends on what your goals are. I've always enjoyed jogging, but I prefer jogging on the trails. One big reason for that is that I'm alone, so I only have to deal with my own expectatons. Jogging may be good exercise, but I do it because it's fun... or, can be fun, at least for me. Like everything else, it depends on circumstances. When I jog on the road, or a track,... around others... from time to time people have made fun of me because I run too slow, or somehow otherwise about my running is 'not right'. And no, I, like 99% of all people, was never going to be an Olympic marathoner. In the woods, if I get too winded, I just stop and walk for a while. I only have to deal with my own responses. I don't have to deal with the responses of others around me. I think this is something that people who are always around other people perhaps don't think about much. But something like myself, who is alone most of time... well, it's different. Like, I've always liked the cigarette ads... and smoking can be fun too. But I haven't smoked much in the last twenty years or so. Largely I only smoke... and only a few puffs... when I'm alone with my cigarette ads. I'm 61, and the cigarette ads I've always collected largely concern a society that doesn't exist anymore,... where smoking was a relatively well accepted social habit. But I wouldn't characterize smoking that way any longer. In my favorite cigarette ads everyone seems to respond positively to smoking... well, yes, they're trying to sell cigarettes. But there's no guarantee that you can find an appropriate group to act out with that will respond in a manner that you'll like, and want to repeat. This is not dissimilar to jogging on the street or on the track. There are elements of the experience that are dependent on the environment, and there are elements of the environment you can't control. So, in one setting... time, and/or place... a particular activity can be fun, but in another time or place it's not fun. The value associated with the activity isn't always entirely intrinsic in the activity itself. Of course, for me, 'fun' is an important goal. For someone else, the goal(s) may be different, but whatever the goals are there's probably going to be some dependency on the environment as to whether those goals can be sufficiently achieved with any activity.
There's something wrong with your channel. The save button on the video is missing. It is present on all other videos. I can't save it to my lists and watch it later.
Those older people may just be trying to put muscle on so they can continue to take care of themselves. You can’t really know their motivations without speaking to them first.
Can the subaltern lift?
Very interesting and entertaining video; I appreciate your podcast a lot (and I was listening to this episode while running lol). Nevertheless, I think you make a little confusion without properly distinguishing between physical exercises and sports. I find interesting the reflections of the gym and fitness as this narcissistic activity in the public space, as well the fact of doing it for body models and beauty standards, but also true that it can be seen as an activity that gives people benefits and new mental states similar to meditation to some extend, I find myself in this given my personal experience. However, I would make a clear distinction with sports because I believe that sports are a distinct activity. If exercise is a narcissistic activity, I see sport closer to arts and activity as pottery, for instance, or zen conception, where there is an embodiment of the discipline. I think that sports are much more the art of body movements applied to close systems (that are the rules and objective of the single sport), I see sport as a research field, an ongoing development of the discipline of expression with new tactics and body combinations. Also, I think very interesting about sports is the individual interpretation of every athlete according to psycho-physical characteristics. I see this total embodiment towards the research of new expressions that occurs in sports quite different compared to physical exercise and fitness, where arguably is more about narcissism due to social beauty standards or health reasons lacking all other aspects of sports.
Where should I start if I want to learn philosophy from the beginning?
Start with the Greeks.
Having just watched the World Track And Field Championships in Budapest . That and the Olympics are my must Sports events to watch. Indeed, on a different level than the average, get off the couch and do some exercise to ease the mind and help the body, as suggested here. After 24/7 training, the athletes are in the form of the Gods, exhausted at the finishing line, falling to the ground, in tears and disbelief, sending prayers of thanks to the sky, moving the spirit of the country upon winning and by competitors for setting world records. that non-Gods could never even imagine or believe possible. That is where, through the living reality. one sees much of what many modern-day philosophers deny. An absolute religious commitment to a dream, physical fitness to the max, Spirit ( collective and Individual) sacrifice and yes, are Gods with existential mindsets dismissed for a more lazy mental way of existing. Where it is for entertainment or social value rather than, as real athletes do, exercise to win. It is harder for an athlete to win gold than for Elle to get tenure.
⭐ "if you regiment your body you can more easily regiment also your soul" - 41:49
It sounds good but there are clear contradictions to this. Plenty of soldiers in excellent shape have done terrible things to citizens caught in warfare. How may people in good shape end up committing violent acts on others and/or themselves.
@@vegansportsbar7453 I guess that demonstrates that mastering own body enables one to execute what one's soul desires. Good and bad, is a subject of morals and here I agree that it is bad when soldiers go beyond their military duties, or anybody commiting violence in a non-defence way
@@ivane945 beyond their military duties? Plenty have been ordered to kill as many as possible. It's called Total War. And it's ambiguous if one is desirous in their 'soul' to do something a coercive situation demands of them, like drafted warfare. But yeah, exercise is a good thing.
What the F is even soul ? This is acient philosophers oozing out word salads that they don't even know or can't define what that is !
Oh hell yeah, this is a subject that really interests me lately especially with the whole gym communities exploding and this obsession with body optimization under capitalism.
Mark Greif manages to cram the simple act of resistance training into a needlessly cynical perspective of human activity and declares it irrational and masturbatory.
I bet he doesn't see the irony in that endeavor
😄
This was a surprisingly good episode -- much more so than I could have guessed from the (as I thought at first) unpromising topic, or from the rather facile Baudrillard quote with which you started. However, the blatant, unthought ageism really rankled. You can do better than that. Please do.
Glad you enjoyed! What do you mean by ageism in the episode?
@@OverthinkPodcastPhilosophy I would think it's pretty obvious, and in any case I don't have any desire to listen to it again, so I can't provide exact time stamps or articulate a more detailed response. There are several instances, the most egregious of which is the discussion of 60- and 70-year olds at the gym. They were all by David, whose contempt and lack of empathy toward old people is palpable, but Ellie didn't do anything to correct him. Thinking about it over the last few days, this left a bitter taste in my mouth, and it crystallized a number of other ways in which I have felt uncomfortable with your podcast in the past. I will not be listening to it anymore.
We're sorry to hear that this was your experience. That comment from David was a statement about seeing some older folks at the gym who appear to be denying their own aging process, as part of a criticism of our youth-obsessed culture: thus, it was meant actually as a critique of ageism.
This is the episode quote: "I also often see at the gym of 60 and 70 year olds trying to submit their bodies to exercise routines that are clearly designed to lead to the ideal body type of a 20 or 30 year old, and thinking that they can still get there.There is a true denial of death.There is a denial of aging.There is a denial of decline that is sometimes a little bit uncomfortable to witness, in my case as a gym goer, because I know that's also where I'm heading."
The APE [ American Puritan Ethic] is based on success equals God's approval of the elect who are going to Heaven.