A great tip to take the controls when you need the student to listen and absorb what you’re saying. I do this with newer students during full stop taxi back landings, so they can talk about their previous landing and I can give them info. If they’ve just landed and they are taxiing the plane they aren’t listening!
One other tool to add to the bag of tricks is the S turn. Many pilots get locked into a straight in final and get all jammed up trying to get down when a couple of shallow turns will add a lot of room to loose altitude. Also when doing an actual engine out, you should be aiming for the middle of the field so that if there is an unexpected headwind or more sink than you expect, you can still make the runway. It's better to go off the end of the runway at 20 than to end up short in the trees at 70. As usual, great video Jason.
I think S-turns are a terrible idea. Learn to slip, also if you speed up in the slip the drag increases by the square. Go get a glider rating and you will learn energy management.
@@JonathanStCloud-yo5oq s-turns at low alt and potentially slow are basically setting up conditions for a spin-stall accident if the student isn’t yet precise and coordinated for every turn.
At 4:03 - you get into not banking the aircraft enough, GREAT advice! As a glider pilot and instructor, we teach 45 degree bank turns in the circuit, it is the most efficient turn when gliding. You will lose the least altitude for your course change. less bank angle and you take longer to turn (hence lose more height) and steeper, you are now sliding sideways, too much lift sideways. Love your videos BTW!
I like your tip to take the controls when you want to say something to the student that they need to hear/absorb. Fantastic! I tend to use geometry first, THEN flaps when trying to hit the spot for power off accuracy landings.... I can dump full flaps when I know I have the runway made, then slip as needed to be in the flare just before the runway aiming point markings.
Dude your teaching style and explanations are great. Simple, informative, give different perspectives, and you don't try to over complicate it with crazy technical terms that nobody will know in the beginning.
My instructor first taught me power-off landings for many hours. After that one day he asked me to descend faster and then progressively add some power during the final to control the glide slope. and approach speed. In a couple of hours I learned the power-on approach, I think this way of learning gives a much better overall feeling, for example I quickly learned to tune the power for landing without even looking et RPM.
I was taught to essentially always do powered off approaches/landings at my flight school in Chandler, AZ - so I always go engine idle when abeam the numbers, hold until 60 knots in my C172 and keep it there all the way through base and final. Because it was all that I knew, I never thought anything of it until I saw most others are taught to come in with some level of power and then go engine idle once you've made the runway. It's a great point that doing that does inherently prepare you for an engine failure landing, should you need to make one.
At 4:10 yes exactly correct; Whatever you do the impulse to pull inside rudder has to be countered out by repetitive training; Trail-draggers not only love to slip to flare you have removed the excess tendency to just flight down to the end of runway; It just settles in like it was trained to do that To my horror some will even pull back on the yoke with inside wing low; We read about those guys at NTSB
And again another gem of Finer Points. I was initially taught power off approaches ibecause your practicing (in a sense) a forced landing everytime. Then my new crap PPL instructor started telling me to keep some power on into the flare. Totally counter intuitive ! Thanks again.
I love power off approaches. I'm definitley going to show this to my students. The biggest habit I need to break with them is the hesitancy to turn that base early and just make it a real tight pattern just like you described. They always wanna have a downwind length equivilant to a powered approach and the solution is just to not add flaps until short final. I was orignially taught power off approaches every time. I think not teaching that way sort of handicaps students and limits understanding of energy management, but I work at a 141 school and they want everything standardized across the board with all the instructors. To inclulde a powered approach. 1500 rpm all the way down.
Wow. those 3 points really boiled it down for me, specially in a situation where quick and assertive thinking is key. I really really like the the Tips for CFI’s here and there too!
You have a gift for instructing. Excellent work, sir! That tip about the taking the controls so the student can focus on what you are saying - brilliant! As a bonus, I bet it also helps you to be more conscientious and selective about which moments you pick to communicate, and thereby a better instructor. In my own experience as a student, I have missed many a well-intentioned learning opportunity when the task of absorbing the lesson shared “in the moment” fell by the wayside due to being fully preoccupied with the ongoing priority of flying the airplane; I heard the instructor’s point, but didn’t fully process it or retain it for long as it got crowded out by other thoughts. (I jointly fault myself for needing to be a more effective multitasker better able to deal with those moments, something I’m trying to improve upon.) Although we could (and no doubt did) revisit those discussions later, I can’t help but think this bit of advice would (and hopefully will) make the training experience just that much better for students like me. Kudos to you for sharing it, and also to every instructor who takes it to heart and implements it!
Yes, it's so task saturating to fly an airplane. I'd say about 60% of your attention is gone just doing that. So it's pointless to communicate important concepts in the airplane unless you unload that processor first! A tip born of experience for sure ... many many many students over the years.
Same here! I wish my instructor had done this. So many hours where there was no brief or debrief, just throwing everything at me while I was trying to do downwind checks, watch speed and altitude and listen to radio for calls. I know we need to learn to multitask, but not when every aspect of it requires intense concentration!
I watch all of your videos because you do such a great job explaining things. I am 18.2 hours into my PPL training and I learn something new from you with each video that I watch. Thanks for the great content, keep em coming.
In the novel I am writing, the passenger takes over for the unconscious pilot and then has to glide into the small airport with no engine-since the fuel is gone. This little lesson is really helpful for me as a writer who does NOT fly. Thanks for the detailed instruction, pardner!
Only craft I’ve ever flown is an ‘83 Quicksilver MX, 2 axis control, 2 cyl. two stroke engine ,single seat ultralight.( part 103 air recreational vehicle). My instructor would reach up and shut the engine off, and then just look at me. We had no radio or intercom, just hand signals. First time he killed the engine, he looked at me with both his hands held out with palms up, and a “well?” look on his face. After about five seconds of very intense learning on my part, he pointed at a grass strip we were right over, and took the controls and showed me the way to put the MX right where he wanted (no engine). I learned to make an engine off landing as my last landing of the night at least once a month. Lesson learned saved my butt.twice the first year when the Cuyauna quit, and we had to use a trailer to get the plane back to the airport. N.E.OH Bob
I’m currently training for my CFI. And might I say, your videos helped me a great deal for my last check ride (CAX) I’ll definitely be coming back for more! Thank you so much! Once I have students of my own, I will also refer them to these videos! Very well explained lectures!
If you are descending at an angle/descent-rate that allows safe power off approach, then I guess you're relatively safe in the unlikely event that the engine fails during the approach
I'm doing my Private right now, plan to go all the way to CFI. So my instructor is combining some lessons knowing they are coming down the road. I struggled with nailing my touchdown point on a squared off pattern. One day he said....Lets try a power off 180 "short approach"..... OMG, loved it....SO much easier. Pull the power at the numbers, drag the numbers level across a circle of motion and Boom...nail it every time. I was like " Why didn't you teach me that from the beginning?!" lol
I did my entire first training in an airplane doing purely power off 180, now, converting types, my CFI wants me to reduce to 1500, speed check, flaps to 10, and working a squared approach. I'm having a lot of trouble juggling everything. I desperately want my simple airplane back =( Power off 180 is so much better.
2 things you need to keep in mind. First the idling engine does create some thrust so with an actual engine out you will not be able to glide as far. Second your elevator may not have as much authority as it normally does which might require an adjustment to how you flare or more speed possibly.
Thanks Jason. I was shocked on my primary training when we were able to line up at 4 miles and 2000AGL and pull power and I still had to slip at the end to get low enough.
Great video! Was hitting the 180 power offs yesterday as part of my BFR. So rare to do in regular flight and a great tip to practice them whenever you can! Been a listener of the podcast since 2009 and great to see you putting out content on UA-cam!
Thanks Ryan. You're old school! UA-cam has been a lot of fun. When I started making videos it was much harder, nowadays, I can carry a Go Pro and edit on a home computer. It's pretty fun to show what I do everyday.
Old school indeed! TFP was always a staple in my 30 minute drive to KHDC and now has been a great refresher as I get back to flying. Still a spring chicken at 130TT, but looking forward to logging many more hours.
I used to teach s turns to lose height and sometimes where appropriate with heaps of height just diving and accepting the extra speed because it washes off very rapidly- the key is to know where the top of final is - in unfamiliar territory taking time to assess slope surface and obstacles is useful as well as pre landing checks- land on a prepared runway is great practice to know your aircraft and really should be regularly visited with an instructor on board
I am glad my primary private instructor always did this with me. "Pick a spot and commit," he would say. One day I tried to reach a private field on the opposite side of the valley...would've been short of the runway about 300 feet. lol
Very timely for me, as I just aced a simulated engine failure all the way to the ground in my recent BFR (described in my letter). I think one of the things that helped me was that I practice emergency power-off landings in the Redbird simulator a lot. It's not perfect, of course, especially with the limited "visibility"... but I did get better at controlling my approach with flaps and slips; even practicing the dreaded "impossible turn" back to the runway, seeing at what altitude I could pull it off and land safely. I was so proud of that BFR landing, timing my turn and slipping the Citabria just the right amount that I touched down right at my intended spot. I got my reality check about a month later, flying with Dave Carrick in the Chipmunk. My first two simulated engine failures were junk; I was rattled by the unfamiliar aircraft and location; I had trouble deciding which field to aim for, and Dave had me overshoot twice before he was happy with my third attempt. We discussed it in debrief, and I still need work on refining my technique in choosing the best field available, choosing my key points and getting the job done right the first time.
My landing goal was to be power off at base but I flew sailplanes for initial training. I had to learn how to drive around long patterns. Trail-draggers love to slip to flare.
I was taught a proper traffic pattern where you must use power on base/final, and a tighter pattern when doing power off landing. Trained in a Tapered wing PA28 that seemed to float forever, most used runway had a slight downslope. At my home field with lots of terrain, trees and a river I usually go for power off landings with the reasoning behind it, so I don't end up in the river. The Hersey Bar wing on the PA28 I fly at home have a lot less float and I would rather not come up short if the engine quits
I’m an inactive instructor myself, and I’ve only actually to put an airplane down once. I lost oil pressure in a Pawnee I was delivering to El Paso, TX. Furthermore, Cessna states that in a slip with more than 50% flaps, a serious nose down situation can occur. I would generally not put in flaps until I had the field made, but that’s just me.
Thanks! yes, true. also possibly the football players :-0 ... If there were none, I think I'd try to land it on a slight diagonal to miss the goal posts. Or maybe I'm talking about the proverbial football field ,,,?
Thanks for this great video, and good job both pilots.....question - where do you get that "if you don't pull you don't increase your stall speed"? my understanding is that bank angle in itself will increase your stall speed...Also friendly suggestion - call it approach trajectory, or flight-path, rather than geometry, less confusing
My Army CFI made me cut power when I was even with threshold on downwind. Never reapplying power during base or final. It was to practice pilot dead stick touch down recognition. I still do it today. Kind of makes my patterns a bit small but what the heck.
@@TheFinerPoints I’m 100% sure I would. With out flight schedule, we have to pay for the Cessna training program ground school. I’m sure it’s a good program in comparison to others out there, but it’s no “finer points”
Question... on a recent Checkride, my DPE talked about the danger of the slip turning into a skid and the stalling problem with that (how on a slip the wing stalls to level flight, while the skid can stall you to unrecoverable)... I don't quite understand the physics and curious if you address that in any of your videos?
It has to do with whether the nose of the airplane is blocking the high wing (slip) or the low wing (skid). The reason slips are safe is if the high wing stalls it will drop to level, if you stall the low wing you will go vertical or upside down.
In the middle of my flight training to become CFI out of Livermore... would love to sign up for your mountain flying training camp-out , most likely next year, as I am strapped for cash this year .. will keep an eye out at Livermore for you/students in meantime. Cheers !
The 172Ms I fly in have a POH notation of “no slip with flaps”. My instructor always said that in an emergency you would just send it if needed. What about for practice? Clean up flaps and slip if needed?
Probably is a lot a short field approach where you focus on speed and energy management to prevent floating pass the target and avoid bouncing off the ground. With the option of a go around off the table you have to hit a mark.
Also. New thing I’m teaching. If you want to go low, go slow. Just slowing 5 knots to let’s say 60knots IAS will turn a Cessna into a brick. Try it. Works like a charm.
I would think timing of actions have just as much importance to "hitting a point" on a runway if you aren't already on a normal glide slope for landing. For example, moving the flaps from one position to the next takes a second or two and therefore the authority of that action will take place at a slight lag which normally is not important but may be if you have to drop faster. Much of that basically means knowing how the plane responds.
My CFI this morning said what you’ve been saying. Don’t land the plane. And also had me fly the whole run way about 5 to 10 ft off the ground to get comfortable on approaching the runway.
I don't agree with the statement being too high is as bad as being too low. There are ways to bleed off altitude (S-turns and flaps) but nothing you can do to add altitude.
Big question - if we're going to do simulated engine outs on every landing we can, which I think is a great idea, how do we manage potential shock cooling of the engine?
Really nice videos and very useful. You obviously have a great ability to competently teach. Just one thing. Football fields are actually 360 feet long. The main field is 100 yards exactly or 300 feet and each end zone is just 10 yards or 30 feet thus a total of 360 feet. Trying to land on a football field is tough, but something that actually is 500 feet would be 170 feet more space and could make the difference.
"Am I high or low, fast or slow". My instructor (Grandson of C.G. Taylor - inventor of Taylorcraft) says that too, but you're the only other CFI I've heard say that. Kind of curious where that saying originally came from.
If terrain limits your geometry options, then how do you feel about flaps vs slip? I suppose flaps are generally safer, but it sure takes a long time for them to come back up if you decide that now you're too low.
I would "spend flaps" carefully because you're right, once their in, their in. However, with the limited rudder travel in most training planes a slip alone is not enough. I think the geometry is the most important part and there are very few runways where terrain is so close this is not an option. Slips are a great "fine tuner".
You bet! I think my point is that you can really square the turn to final, don't be afraid to drop into a steep bank, let the nose fall to keep the speed, no need to overshoot the final.
Valuable video. Question... does adding the first notch of flaps give you a bit of lift or does it create drag. I noticed that on the one approach your student Lost the engine, put in flaps and slowed to best glide. What is the best sequence and do you add first notch? Thanks for your video all the best neal punta gorda florida cfi
On the subject of football fields if you go diagonally you have about 400 ft. you really probably do want to go diagonally to because the goal posts are 30 feet high at the center of each end.
Just like in hang gliding or glider plane. Except the speed and glide angle of course. Looking out for wind sheer and lift and sink. Head and tail wind speeds. Speed is your friend.
What am I missing? Why drop a notch of flaps immediately? Shouldn’t you wait until you are sure you can make your touchdown zone? Climb to bleed airspeed down to best glide as you turn towards your target. Or were you already that close?
I’m interested as well, but my guess is that they could easily make the runway and now they had to worry about getting down. If you were 5 miles out, then you probably wouldn’t add flaps? Can someone correct me?
The flaps 10 are added because we easily have the runway made and are shedding off altitude cautiously. Serg mis spoke about best glide ... I really want him pitching for 85 on the downwind (which doesn't last long) 75 on base and 65 on final. We are close to the runway and have 1000 feet of altitude to lose.
Question: at 7:56, he added flaps. The airspeed indicator looked like it was outside the white arc. Is that a standard procedure for an engine out on this plane, or something else?
Maintain 1.4 times stall speed while gliding to your objective. That speed should be close to best glide. Remember, you may be dealing with an obstacle such as the wall of the stadium or the goalposts. When you have the landing spot, assured that you are ready to flare slowly raise the nose until you stall the airplane mains first about a foot above until touchdown. Immediately go flaps up and apply for back pressure and moderate braking.
Consider not to pitch up for best glide. If you have an engine failure at say 100 kts and best glide is 65, it is best I think to keep the aircraft flying and let it decelerate alone. If you pull to bring it to the glide speed imidiately you momentarily increase the g to over 1 and this will cost some meters on the gliding distance you could achieve.
9:07 "Don't dive so hard with the nose." This is the real challenge. Only way I can think of to hit the target touchdown is to keep slipping, so as not to increase speed. For me, it is really hard to hold the slip that close to touchdown.
I remember the first time I was asked.... You're flying at night, aren't you afraid it might quit?? I replied: If I thought it might quit in the daytime I would never fly at all. Yes, I have several thousand hours.
It's factual to the extent that you're going down after an engine failure and you're best off following the pattern down to your selected landing spot even if it is not a runway.
Chock full o good nuggets! I'm transitioning from a T-41 (C172 but with a bigger engine) to a Sklane RG. I'm struggling to get the airplane down or to slow my speed. I use the yoke and throttle well in the T-41 but can't translate that into the 182. You just made me realize I wasn't using the "geometry" or all of the airplanes tools (flaps full or some variation of) if I'm high on base. Thank you for this. One question though: Slips at full flaps are are frowned upon at my aero club, and it's in the T-41's checklist not to (but not in the 182's). Do you do "light" slips will full flaps, or only when less than full flaps. With a high wing, there's a tendency to wash out the tail with full flaps.
One thing you learn while landing a glider is to resist trying to control your descent with pitch attitude and learn to control with the "tools" you talk about. The tendency is to "point the nose at the runway", but that will take your airspeed too high, or pull back and risk stalling. Hold your airspeed and use other methods to control descent path.
That's great experience. Flying gliders is a great way to become a better pilot. I know a glider pilot that was on a Part 135 check ride in a powered airplane and when the examiner pulled his power, actually got into a thermal and started going up!
@@TheFinerPoints i really would like to know what the examiner said about that... "That was not a forced landing, that was an instant glider conversion!"
A great tip to take the controls when you need the student to listen and absorb what you’re saying. I do this with newer students during full stop taxi back landings, so they can talk about their previous landing and I can give them info. If they’ve just landed and they are taxiing the plane they aren’t listening!
It's a great tool / technique and the students appreciate it
It is quite obvious to me that you truly love what you are doing Jason and it is appreciated by all aviators.
Thanks Steve. I really do. I feel very fortunate.
One other tool to add to the bag of tricks is the S turn. Many pilots get locked into a straight in final and get all jammed up trying to get down when a couple of shallow turns will add a lot of room to loose altitude. Also when doing an actual engine out, you should be aiming for the middle of the field so that if there is an unexpected headwind or more sink than you expect, you can still make the runway. It's better to go off the end of the runway at 20 than to end up short in the trees at 70. As usual, great video Jason.
Good point. Adding my illustration to your S turn suggestion :-) ua-cam.com/video/WtnSvy0a1o4/v-deo.html
This is true! Another way to use the "geometry" as a tool to lose altitude.
I think S-turns are a terrible idea. Learn to slip, also if you speed up in the slip the drag increases by the square. Go get a glider rating and you will learn energy management.
After N76075, I'm not sure S-Turns on final are a safe option
@@JonathanStCloud-yo5oq s-turns at low alt and potentially slow are basically setting up conditions for a spin-stall accident if the student isn’t yet precise and coordinated for every turn.
At 4:03 - you get into not banking the aircraft enough, GREAT advice! As a glider pilot and instructor, we teach 45 degree bank turns in the circuit, it is the most efficient turn when gliding. You will lose the least altitude for your course change. less bank angle and you take longer to turn (hence lose more height) and steeper, you are now sliding sideways, too much lift sideways.
Love your videos BTW!
I like your tip to take the controls when you want to say something to the student that they need to hear/absorb. Fantastic!
I tend to use geometry first, THEN flaps when trying to hit the spot for power off accuracy landings.... I can dump full flaps when I know I have the runway made, then slip as needed to be in the flare just before the runway aiming point markings.
Dude your teaching style and explanations are great. Simple, informative, give different perspectives, and you don't try to over complicate it with crazy technical terms that nobody will know in the beginning.
My instructor first taught me power-off landings for many hours. After that one day he asked me to descend faster and then progressively add some power during the final to control the glide slope. and approach speed. In a couple of hours I learned the power-on approach, I think this way of learning gives a much better overall feeling, for example I quickly learned to tune the power for landing without even looking et RPM.
I was taught to essentially always do powered off approaches/landings at my flight school in Chandler, AZ - so I always go engine idle when abeam the numbers, hold until 60 knots in my C172 and keep it there all the way through base and final. Because it was all that I knew, I never thought anything of it until I saw most others are taught to come in with some level of power and then go engine idle once you've made the runway. It's a great point that doing that does inherently prepare you for an engine failure landing, should you need to make one.
At 4:10 yes exactly correct; Whatever you do the impulse to pull inside rudder has to be countered out by repetitive training; Trail-draggers not only love to slip to flare you have removed the excess tendency to just flight down to the end of runway; It just settles in like it was trained to do that
To my horror some will even pull back on the yoke with inside wing low;
We read about those guys at NTSB
And again another gem of Finer Points. I was initially taught power off approaches ibecause your practicing (in a sense) a forced landing everytime. Then my new crap PPL instructor started telling me to keep some power on into the flare. Totally counter intuitive ! Thanks again.
I love power off approaches. I'm definitley going to show this to my students. The biggest habit I need to break with them is the hesitancy to turn that base early and just make it a real tight pattern just like you described. They always wanna have a downwind length equivilant to a powered approach and the solution is just to not add flaps until short final.
I was orignially taught power off approaches every time. I think not teaching that way sort of handicaps students and limits understanding of energy management, but I work at a 141 school and they want everything standardized across the board with all the instructors. To inclulde a powered approach. 1500 rpm all the way down.
Im getting ready to take my discovery flight this channel has been a MASSSSSSIVE help.
Wow. those 3 points really boiled it down for me, specially in a situation where quick and assertive thinking is key. I really really like the the Tips for CFI’s here and there too!
You have a gift for instructing. Excellent work, sir!
That tip about the taking the controls so the student can focus on what you are saying - brilliant! As a bonus, I bet it also helps you to be more conscientious and selective about which moments you pick to communicate, and thereby a better instructor. In my own experience as a student, I have missed many a well-intentioned learning opportunity when the task of absorbing the lesson shared “in the moment” fell by the wayside due to being fully preoccupied with the ongoing priority of flying the airplane; I heard the instructor’s point, but didn’t fully process it or retain it for long as it got crowded out by other thoughts. (I jointly fault myself for needing to be a more effective multitasker better able to deal with those moments, something I’m trying to improve upon.) Although we could (and no doubt did) revisit those discussions later, I can’t help but think this bit of advice would (and hopefully will) make the training experience just that much better for students like me. Kudos to you for sharing it, and also to every instructor who takes it to heart and implements it!
Yes, it's so task saturating to fly an airplane. I'd say about 60% of your attention is gone just doing that. So it's pointless to communicate important concepts in the airplane unless you unload that processor first! A tip born of experience for sure ... many many many students over the years.
Same here! I wish my instructor had done this. So many hours where there was no brief or debrief, just throwing everything at me while I was trying to do downwind checks, watch speed and altitude and listen to radio for calls. I know we need to learn to multitask, but not when every aspect of it requires intense concentration!
I watch all of your videos because you do such a great job explaining things. I am 18.2 hours into my PPL training and I learn something new from you with each video that I watch. Thanks for the great content, keep em coming.
Wilco! Good on you for seeking out solid info, keep it up!
Brand new pilot....got my ticket Thursday...i find your videos excellent. You are a very calm and collective CFI with great info. Thanks! Subscribed!
In the novel I am writing, the passenger takes over for the unconscious pilot and then has to glide into the small airport with no engine-since the fuel is gone. This little lesson is really helpful for me as a writer who does NOT fly. Thanks for the detailed instruction, pardner!
Only craft I’ve ever flown is an ‘83 Quicksilver MX, 2 axis control, 2 cyl. two stroke engine ,single seat ultralight.( part 103 air recreational vehicle). My instructor would reach up and shut the engine off, and then just look at me. We had no radio or intercom, just hand signals. First time he killed the engine, he looked at me with both his hands held out with palms up, and a “well?” look on his face. After about five seconds of very intense learning on my part, he pointed at a grass strip we were right over, and took the controls and showed me the way to put the MX right where he wanted (no engine). I learned to make an engine off landing as my last landing of the night at least once a month. Lesson learned saved my butt.twice the first year when the Cuyauna quit, and we had to use a trailer to get the plane back to the airport. N.E.OH Bob
I’m currently training for my CFI. And might I say, your videos helped me a great deal for my last check ride (CAX) I’ll definitely be coming back for more! Thank you so much! Once I have students of my own, I will also refer them to these videos! Very well explained lectures!
Interesting idea/tip to do a power-off approach on "every approach you fly" if able... I imagine that'd really help with proficiency in doing this!
Assuming you live in a place that doesn't normally have a 2 mile final.
If you are descending at an angle/descent-rate that allows safe power off approach, then I guess you're relatively safe in the unlikely event that the engine fails during the approach
I'm doing my Private right now, plan to go all the way to CFI. So my instructor is combining some lessons knowing they are coming down the road. I struggled with nailing my touchdown point on a squared off pattern. One day he said....Lets try a power off 180 "short approach"..... OMG, loved it....SO much easier. Pull the power at the numbers, drag the numbers level across a circle of motion and Boom...nail it every time. I was like " Why didn't you teach me that from the beginning?!" lol
Yes, it's interesting to see from the right seat. Without the power - you remove a variable that is rarely consistent. I think it makes it easier too.
I did my entire first training in an airplane doing purely power off 180, now, converting types, my CFI wants me to reduce to 1500, speed check, flaps to 10, and working a squared approach. I'm having a lot of trouble juggling everything. I desperately want my simple airplane back =( Power off 180 is so much better.
2 things you need to keep in mind. First the idling engine does create some thrust so with an actual engine out you will not be able to glide as far. Second your elevator may not have as much authority as it normally does which might require an adjustment to how you flare or more speed possibly.
Thanks Jason. I was shocked on my primary training when we were able to line up at 4 miles and 2000AGL and pull power and I still had to slip at the end to get low enough.
Great video! Was hitting the 180 power offs yesterday as part of my BFR. So rare to do in regular flight and a great tip to practice them whenever you can! Been a listener of the podcast since 2009 and great to see you putting out content on UA-cam!
Thanks Ryan. You're old school! UA-cam has been a lot of fun. When I started making videos it was much harder, nowadays, I can carry a Go Pro and edit on a home computer. It's pretty fun to show what I do everyday.
Old school indeed! TFP was always a staple in my 30 minute drive to KHDC and now has been a great refresher as I get back to flying. Still a spring chicken at 130TT, but looking forward to logging many more hours.
I used to teach s turns to lose height and sometimes where appropriate with heaps of height just diving and accepting the extra speed because it washes off very rapidly- the key is to know where the top of final is - in unfamiliar territory taking time to assess slope surface and obstacles is useful as well as pre landing checks- land on a prepared runway is great practice to know your aircraft and really should be regularly visited with an instructor on board
I am glad my primary private instructor always did this with me. "Pick a spot and commit," he would say. One day I tried to reach a private field on the opposite side of the valley...would've been short of the runway about 300 feet. lol
Very timely for me, as I just aced a simulated engine failure all the way to the ground in my recent BFR (described in my letter). I think one of the things that helped me was that I practice emergency power-off landings in the Redbird simulator a lot. It's not perfect, of course, especially with the limited "visibility"... but I did get better at controlling my approach with flaps and slips; even practicing the dreaded "impossible turn" back to the runway, seeing at what altitude I could pull it off and land safely. I was so proud of that BFR landing, timing my turn and slipping the Citabria just the right amount that I touched down right at my intended spot. I got my reality check about a month later, flying with Dave Carrick in the Chipmunk. My first two simulated engine failures were junk; I was rattled by the unfamiliar aircraft and location; I had trouble deciding which field to aim for, and Dave had me overshoot twice before he was happy with my third attempt. We discussed it in debrief, and I still need work on refining my technique in choosing the best field available, choosing my key points and getting the job done right the first time.
I definitely agree with the name of your channel. This is fine teaching and very cerebral.
Good demonstration, thanks.
Excellent Question!
My landing goal was to be power off at base but I flew sailplanes for initial training. I had to learn how to drive around long patterns. Trail-draggers love to slip to flare.
Thanks for this video! Getting ready to start my commercial and looking forward to trying the power-off 180s.
I was taught a proper traffic pattern where you must use power on base/final, and a tighter pattern when doing power off landing. Trained in a Tapered wing PA28 that seemed to float forever, most used runway had a slight downslope. At my home field with lots of terrain, trees and a river I usually go for power off landings with the reasoning behind it, so I don't end up in the river. The Hersey Bar wing on the PA28 I fly at home have a lot less float and I would rather not come up short if the engine quits
I’m an inactive instructor myself, and I’ve only actually to put an airplane down once. I lost oil pressure in a Pawnee I was delivering to El Paso, TX.
Furthermore, Cessna states that in a slip with more than 50% flaps, a serious nose down situation can occur. I would generally not put in flaps until I had the field made, but that’s just me.
Funny thing about football fields....goal post...great video Jason
Thanks! yes, true. also possibly the football players :-0 ... If there were none, I think I'd try to land it on a slight diagonal to miss the goal posts. Or maybe I'm talking about the proverbial football field ,,,?
Sorry Jason. Forgot to say this is a very well executed lesson. Bravo.
Thanks for this great video, and good job both pilots.....question - where do you get that "if you don't pull you don't increase your stall speed"? my understanding is that bank angle in itself will increase your stall speed...Also friendly suggestion - call it approach trajectory, or flight-path, rather than geometry, less confusing
My Army CFI made me cut power when I was even with threshold on downwind. Never reapplying power during base or final. It was to practice pilot dead stick touch down recognition. I still do it today. Kind of makes my patterns a bit small but what the heck.
Again, awesome tips even for the CFI seat. I can’t wait to instruct. I might as well save all the videos in your entire channel.
Awesome! Thank you! Help us spread the word. You'd love the Ground School app - www.learnthefinerpoints.com/ground-school
@@TheFinerPoints I’m 100% sure I would. With out flight schedule, we have to pay for the Cessna training program ground school. I’m sure it’s a good program in comparison to others out there, but it’s no “finer points”
Thank you for sharing this
Excellent lesson. My CFI stressed the same in my head., where would I land (ALWAYS) and how do I get it there and bleed the alt. Thanks
Excellent. Amazing how often CFI's need to remember students to keep the nose down. Same happens to me. Very good stuff, thanks so much for the video.
Again, great Vid. Gotta take this lesson to heart, thanks Jason.
Very nice! Thanks for putting this together
Question... on a recent Checkride, my DPE talked about the danger of the slip turning into a skid and the stalling problem with that (how on a slip the wing stalls to level flight, while the skid can stall you to unrecoverable)... I don't quite understand the physics and curious if you address that in any of your videos?
It has to do with whether the nose of the airplane is blocking the high wing (slip) or the low wing (skid). The reason slips are safe is if the high wing stalls it will drop to level, if you stall the low wing you will go vertical or upside down.
In the middle of my flight training to become CFI out of Livermore... would love to sign up for your mountain flying training camp-out , most likely next year, as I am strapped for cash this year .. will keep an eye out at Livermore for you/students in meantime. Cheers !
Great lesson, this was extremely helpful!
Totally appreciated instructions.
The 172Ms I fly in have a POH notation of “no slip with flaps”.
My instructor always said that in an emergency you would just send it if needed.
What about for practice? Clean up flaps and slip if needed?
Probably is a lot a short field approach where you focus on speed and energy management to prevent floating pass the target and avoid bouncing off the ground. With the option of a go around off the table you have to hit a mark.
Also. New thing I’m teaching. If you want to go low, go slow. Just slowing 5 knots to let’s say 60knots IAS will turn a Cessna into a brick. Try it. Works like a charm.
Thanks Jason, Great food for thought. And practice, practice, practice! ".....and Land your best!"
Thanks! always tryin', Kyle ... always tryin'
You are a great teacher!
I would think timing of actions have just as much importance to "hitting a point" on a runway if you aren't already on a normal glide slope for landing. For example, moving the flaps from one position to the next takes a second or two and therefore the authority of that action will take place at a slight lag which normally is not important but may be if you have to drop faster. Much of that basically means knowing how the plane responds.
Thanks very helpful
My CFI this morning said what you’ve been saying. Don’t land the plane. And also had me fly the whole run way about 5 to 10 ft off the ground to get comfortable on approaching the runway.
When off power and keeping descending can I still keep turn rate up to 30 degrees or it should be less?
As always, all your video help me so very much.
I don't agree with the statement being too high is as bad as being too low. There are ways to bleed off altitude (S-turns and flaps) but nothing you can do to add altitude.
Jason, I appreciate your videos. I learn so much as a newish pilot.
Thanks! It makes me happy to hear that.
I’m going to contact you next time I’m in SF to fly with you and do the Bay Tour and learn from you. Dad is in Sausalito.
cool! It would be fun to fly
Agree 100% with ArcticMayhem below... S-turns to get low. Being high (having altitude) is ALWAYS better than too low... :-)
What airline do you teach at? I don’t have one near me and I’m worried the ads I see are scams or terrible schools
Big question - if we're going to do simulated engine outs on every landing we can, which I think is a great idea, how do we manage potential shock cooling of the engine?
Jack B not really an issue in a Cessna 172. She’s a freakin truck.
Great video!
Really nice videos and very useful. You obviously have a great ability to competently teach. Just one thing. Football fields are actually 360 feet long. The main field is 100 yards exactly or 300 feet and each end zone is just 10 yards or 30 feet thus a total of 360 feet. Trying to land on a football field is tough, but something that actually is 500 feet would be 170 feet more space and could make the difference.
If you are high can you go idle and full flaps
Thanks, good lesson.
"Am I high or low, fast or slow". My instructor (Grandson of C.G. Taylor - inventor of Taylorcraft) says that too, but you're the only other CFI I've heard say that. Kind of curious where that saying originally came from.
Not sure, but it's SO COOL that you learned from the grandson of the inventor of Taylorcraft. :)
My CFI here in KDBQ says that all the time, too. I hear it in my head even when I'm flying solo!
If terrain limits your geometry options, then how do you feel about flaps vs slip? I suppose flaps are generally safer, but it sure takes a long time for them to come back up if you decide that now you're too low.
I would "spend flaps" carefully because you're right, once their in, their in. However, with the limited rudder travel in most training planes a slip alone is not enough. I think the geometry is the most important part and there are very few runways where terrain is so close this is not an option. Slips are a great "fine tuner".
Welcome to western PA. I think 1/2 the airports are named after the ravine they sit in. Thanks for all the info Jason!
You bet! I think my point is that you can really square the turn to final, don't be afraid to drop into a steep bank, let the nose fall to keep the speed, no need to overshoot the final.
Great Video Jason. Thx
Valuable video. Question... does adding the first notch of flaps give you a bit of lift or does it create drag. I noticed that on the one approach your student Lost the engine, put in flaps and slowed to best glide. What is the best sequence and do you add first notch? Thanks for your video
all the best neal punta gorda florida cfi
It only adds drag. If you want to glide as far as possible, do not add flaps
On the subject of football fields if you go diagonally you have about 400 ft. you really probably do want to go diagonally to because the goal posts are 30 feet high at the center of each end.
What is the name / make / model of the traffic notification gear you’re using please? I heard it at around 7:06... Thanks!
Great video, thanks
Great video, thank you !
One question, I see the student doesn’t use the Trim, it wouldn’t help more to maintain the airspeed ?
I just subscribed. Do you ever fly a Cherokee?
Just like in hang gliding or glider plane. Except the speed and glide angle of course. Looking out for wind sheer and lift and sink. Head and tail wind speeds. Speed is your friend.
As always great video and tips, thanks Jason and to Serge for sharing his learning experience for all to watch.
What am I missing? Why drop a notch of flaps immediately? Shouldn’t you wait until you are sure you can make your touchdown zone? Climb to bleed airspeed down to best glide as you turn towards your target. Or were you already that close?
6:08 is it good idea to trim right before touchdown ? oO
Nice landing
7:55
I may have missed the explanation but what is the reasoning for flaps 10 after engine to idle and pitching to best glide ?
I’m interested as well, but my guess is that they could easily make the runway and now they had to worry about getting down. If you were 5 miles out, then you probably wouldn’t add flaps? Can someone correct me?
Makes sense. I still wonder if it’s a teaching point thought. Will flaps 10 even make a substantial enough difference though?
Not what I would do BUT they do help stabilise speed
The flaps 10 are added because we easily have the runway made and are shedding off altitude cautiously. Serg mis spoke about best glide ... I really want him pitching for 85 on the downwind (which doesn't last long) 75 on base and 65 on final. We are close to the runway and have 1000 feet of altitude to lose.
That is correct
I would never use flaps early in the approach. Better to do S turns or side slip until you are okay with the altitude on final. Then apply flaps....
Question: at 7:56, he added flaps. The airspeed indicator looked like it was outside the white arc. Is that a standard procedure for an engine out on this plane, or something else?
This year of the C172 allows the first 10 degrees below 110 (outside the white arc)
Makes sense... I appreciate it!
LVK was my home airport.
Were you possibly in Tennessee for this video?
I do love Tennessee ... especially this time of year ... but no, this was Oakland California.
Out of all the Instructors on you tube to get a personal lesson from I would choose you.
Maintain 1.4 times stall speed while gliding to your objective. That speed should be close to best glide. Remember, you may be dealing with an obstacle such as the wall of the stadium or the goalposts. When you have the landing spot, assured that you are ready to flare slowly raise the nose until you stall the airplane mains first about a foot above until touchdown. Immediately go flaps up and apply for back pressure and moderate braking.
Do you have a target airspeed on final for this maneuver in the C172?
Yes, approx 65 knots in calm winds with full flaps
That looks like a lot of fun
It is! I make power off approaches my default.
Consider not to pitch up for best glide. If you have an engine failure at say 100 kts and best glide is 65, it is best I think to keep the aircraft flying and let it decelerate alone. If you pull to bring it to the glide speed imidiately you momentarily increase the g to over 1 and this will cost some meters on the gliding distance you could achieve.
Are you in the teaching in the Bay Area!?
9:07 "Don't dive so hard with the nose." This is the real challenge. Only way I can think of to hit the target touchdown is to keep slipping, so as not to increase speed. For me, it is really hard to hold the slip that close to touchdown.
Is it factual that most engine failures occur in the pattern or near the destination airport?
Good practice anyhow.
I remember the first time I was asked....
You're flying at night, aren't you afraid it might quit??
I replied:
If I thought it might quit in the daytime I would never fly at all.
Yes, I have several thousand hours.
It's factual to the extent that you're going down after an engine failure and you're best off following the pattern down to your selected landing spot even if it is not a runway.
I work at Oakland airport and looking for a good instructor!
Putting flaps in a turn?
Chock full o good nuggets! I'm transitioning from a T-41 (C172 but with a bigger engine) to a Sklane RG. I'm struggling to get the airplane down or to slow my speed. I use the yoke and throttle well in the T-41 but can't translate that into the 182. You just made me realize I wasn't using the "geometry" or all of the airplanes tools (flaps full or some variation of) if I'm high on base. Thank you for this.
One question though: Slips at full flaps are are frowned upon at my aero club, and it's in the T-41's checklist not to (but not in the 182's). Do you do "light" slips will full flaps, or only when less than full flaps. With a high wing, there's a tendency to wash out the tail with full flaps.
One thing you learn while landing a glider is to resist trying to control your descent with pitch attitude and learn to control with the "tools" you talk about. The tendency is to "point the nose at the runway", but that will take your airspeed too high, or pull back and risk stalling. Hold your airspeed and use other methods to control descent path.
That's great experience. Flying gliders is a great way to become a better pilot. I know a glider pilot that was on a Part 135 check ride in a powered airplane and when the examiner pulled his power, actually got into a thermal and started going up!
@@TheFinerPoints i really would like to know what the examiner said about that... "That was not a forced landing, that was an instant glider conversion!"
I think he said, "very funny, you made your point, let's move on"
Best CFI ever
Good stuff!