You Are Gods by David Bentley Hart. Reflections on Vedantic Christianity
Вставка
- Опубліковано 27 чер 2024
- A set of reflections liberally drawing on You Are Gods by David Bentley Hart (Notre Dame Press, 2022).
Bentley Hart says that the book could equally have been subtitled, Studies in Vedantic Christianity, which I take as a lead.
What might traditional Christian themes such as God and Jesus, Salvation and Spirit, Creation and Grace, Worship and Judgment look like within such a perspective?
A summary might be that the gospel is the discovery and realisation that, as Jesus puts it, You are gods. And that the kingdom is not here or there, but within.
As Bentley Hart puts it himself: “We are nothing but created gods coming to be, becoming God in God, able to become divine only because, in some sense, we are divine from the very first.”
But what might that mean, what does that look like, how can we know?
0:00 Vedantic Christianity in the Bible, as the gospel
7:58 The natural is already supernatural, our desire is for the infinite
18:26 The Trinity and nondualism as the circle of glory
23:07 Jesus and the Incarnation
29:08 Salvation as theophany
33:34 Paul and the Spirit of God within us
36:58 Creation is in eternity, returning in time
40:32 More on how we might know these things
45:03 Worship as beauty, reverence, longing, delight
47:43 Suffering and living in a violent world
55:22 Eschatology as our eternal Yes to God
57:58 The immanence of transcendence in Christian life
1:05:57 Guarding against inflation and emergent notions of God in history
1:16:05 Judgment, action and freedom - Розваги
❤
What a fantastic channel this is with superb content..
Thank you.
Wonderful extension of your conversations with Rupert. Thank you for all the value you offer us, Mark.
Thanks and yes, I’ve been looking for a text to talk with and take another step…
"You might even say that the scientific life is not satisfying because of the science but because of what the science radiates."
As a scientist (whatever that means), I completely agree.
I am delighted with your speech and wonderful British accent. Thank you!
Wonderful. Thank you SO much.
Sri RamaKrishna ❤❤
“As the thoughts move in the mind of a man, so move the worlds of men and women in the mind of God, and make no confusion there, for there they had their birth, the offspring of his imagination. Man is but a thought of God.”
-George MacDonald
On this Sunday morning, I feel like I received a truly inspired sermon that was perfectly catered to my personal experience of transcendence
Me too. 🎯❤️
The LORD delivers.
Thanks for the video Mark. Your video gave me some great insights. I would love nothing more than a conversation between Bentley-Hart, John Vervaeke, and yourself. Hopefully that happens at some point.
Really beautiful. Thank you 🙏
It's really happening.
You radiate a rediscovered spiritual happiness,Mark.I am glad that you are a friend of Rupert Sheldrake and a student of the magnificent DBH!
Please turn the sound up. If Moses had descended from the mountain and made his pronouncements like that, we would all still be wandering around aimlessly in the wilderness.
Apologies. Your witty chastisement should help me remember to check next time.
“…the Logos of the Lord came to Elias, “Go outside and stand on the mountain before the Lord; the Lord will be passing by.” A strong and heavy wind was rending the mountains and crushing rocks before the Lord-but the Lord was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake-but the Lord was not in the earthquake. After the earthquake there was fire-but the Lord was not in the fire. After the fire there was a tiny whispering sound.” 🤗
Beautiful!
Sat Chit Ananda - Thank you Mark
This is great thanks. I love DBH, but I find him very difficult to read. This is really helpful in understanding this important work.
Very, very much appreciated this; I shall return to it. Thank you. DB Hart has been formative in my life and ministry. I have the book but have not started it yet, and I value deeply this extensive introduction. Looking forward to the text! I also take note of important and exciting (for me) points of intersection with Michel Henry's (French Phenomenologist) works, which also make masterful use of Meister Eckhart's writings. My favorite of Henry's texts is "I Am the Truth: Toward a Philosophy of Christianity." I am finding a very profitable interplay between Dr. John Behr, Michel Henry, and DB Hart: key themes appear common to these authors and teachers, and they all point toward my own academic fascination: theological anthropology. Thank you, Mark, for taking the time to offer such a wonderful and inspiring introduction to Hart's book!
Are you Orthodox?
When suffering is explained away as "sweet suffering" it's always a subjective personal suffering. My personal suffering is never so great that it can't be
managed. It's the suffering of a 6 year old child that is chained to a basement floor who's only human contact is when she is tortured and raped....THAT is the suffering that needs to be addressed. I don't think it can be properly explained. "God works in mysterious ways". And indeed many believers of karma may tell you that the 6 year old child brought it upon herself. The worst suffering in creation is not our own suffering.
Edit: great work, Mark. I've listened to this twice and I enjoy so many of your other videos.
The way of Jesus: blessed are we who mourn, who yearn for justice, who suffer for justice, who are poor in spirit (dissatisfied / duhkha) ; blessed are those who are meek, merciful, peacemakers and pure of heart (grateful / nirvana). Each of us has a cross. If we survive our crucifixion, we will be grateful.
It seems like a paradox that we often have to spill so many words to arrive at this simple Vedantic Christian nugget.
Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God. (ACIM)
"simples innit" - Jesus
Thanks for the vid Mark, the Number 7 bus journey is a trip with you in my ears..
Richard
??
ACIM is based around a channeled spirit calling itself "Jesus"
@@TheGuiltsOfUs the devil is in the detail. I wouldn't say ACIM is channelled material or that Jesus is the source of the material. ACIM uses symbols a separated can understand and Jesus is one of these symbols, for some students.. check Ken Wapnick for further clarification if required..cheers Richard
Mark,this is your best!Glad you seem happy.I know,or I think,that you have been through a tough time?
Douglas Harding always quotes the Christian mystics in his books. I had no idea Christianity was so spiritual before I started reading that guy.
Very interesting and helpful.Thank you for such a fluent and engaging commentary. I wonder if DBH gives any pointers as to how we, in our incipient divinity, can better deal practically with natural and human 'unlove' (sin) which is all over the news? What role for angels (if he acknowledges them)? If the 'unlove' originated with the 'bad' angels (and then us), how do we engage with the good ones and enlist their help? I guess by being more aware, and 'covering' with more love - as Paul says to Peter (1 Peter 5:8 and 4:8). Maybe I have to read the book! Thanks again for the review.
I'd much recommend Roland In Moonlight for DBH on beings like angels and matters like love.
Working Bibliography on Vedantic Christianity
Abhishtikananda/ Henri Le Saux - _Prayer_ and others
Glenn Friesen - _Abhishiktananda: Christian Nondualism and Hindu Advaita_
Bede Griffiths - _Return to the Center_ and others
Wayne Teasdale - _Bede Griffiths: An Introduction to His Interspiritual Thought_
Sara Grant - _Towards an Alternative Theology: Confessions of a Non-Dual Christian_
Brahmabandhav Upadhyay
Richard De Smet, SJ - _Brahman & Person_ and others
Francis Clooney, SJ - _Theology after Vedanta, Beyond Compare_ and others
Cyprian Consiglio - _ Spirit, Soul, Body: Toward an Integral Christian Spirituality_
Bradley J Malkovsky - Divine Grace and Sankara
Julius Lipner - _The Face of Truth_ and others
Chakravarthi Ram-Prasad - _Divine Self, Human Self_
David Bentley Hart - _Experience of God: Being, Consciousness, Bliss, You Are Gods_
Daniel Soars - _The World and God are Not-Two_
Anantanand Rambachan - _Pathways to Hindu-Christian Dialogue_
Kalarikkal Poulose Aleaz - _Convergence of Advaita Vedanta and Eastern Christian Thought_ and others
Arjun Chatterjee - _Essays on Vedanta and Western Philosophies: Vedanta as interpreted by Sri Aurobindo_
Vedanta = One.
Christianity = Love.
Truth = One Love.
“For the world is--allow us the homely figure--the human being turned inside out. All that moves in the mind is symbolized in Nature. Or, to use another more philosophical, and certainly not less poetic figure, the world is a sensuous analysis of humanity, and hence an inexhaustible wardrobe for the clothing of human thought. Take any word expressive of emotion--take the word emotion itself--and you will find that its primary meaning is of the outer world. In the swaying of the woods, in the unrest of the "wavy plain," the imagination saw the picture of a well-known condition of the human mind; and hence the word emotion.”
-George MacDonald
Great Barfieldian point too on “the inside of the whole world”. Thanks
@@PlatosPodcasts yes I see how Barfield was inoculated by George MacDonald’s writings. This is from his essay titled “The Imagination: It’s Function and It’s Culture.”
I think some First Temple theology might be necessary - if only to historicise the mystical and metaphysical
Then he never understood rabbi Yeshua in the first place, radical Torah observance not Torah abandonment - that was his teaching!
59:46 bookmark
Mark it seems that you were talking previously about Christ somehow being seminal to the development of the individual ; how does this fit into the vedantic conception which seems to regard the dispelling of the 'false' sense of individuality as paramount?
I think it took the emergence of a unitary sense of individuality, following the Axial period, for the unitary sense of reality to become perceivable, the former then being seen as a reflection of the latter. Hence in Christian terms, the fully human could be known as fully divine in the incarnation of Christ, the type for all human beings, or in Vedantic terms, sages like Shankara could reinterpret older texts like the Upanishads and the Gita to present the teachings of Advaita Vedanta.
Once again i really enjoyed every minute of this talk. Have you ever considered doing a bible series looking at what the bible is trying to convey to us.
I wonder if he got this title from Psalm 82.
There is that famous anecdote in John where Jesus is reprimanded by the dualistic Jewish orthodoxy for saying he is one with God, or a son of God. Then he refers them to their own law in Psalm 82 where it is stated that
“I said, ‘You are “gods”;
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler"
This is also the main message of Jesus, so he must have been fond of this verse. Realise your divine deathless Self Nature now.. or die like a mortal..
Also, it might come as a shock to some Christians that Jesus wasn't quite the egomaniac going around calling himself the 'only' begotten son of God, but the 'only' bit was likely added on later so that such a blasphemy never happened again. That seems obvious by his reference to Psalm 82 where it says you are all sons of the most high. . So some things don't change, because he was crucified primarily for blasphemy.
Ooh ok, so I wrote too soon haha. it is indeed derived from that anecdote.
Regarding this two tiered understanding: I've never understood that, maybe because my earliest understanding even at age 4 was that wherever I am, everything appears. Consciousness has to be present first for anything to appear, so how can you say this is Consciousness and this isn't. its simply not possible in truth. I never forgot that, so when I first heard of non duality quite young it was it was an easy conversion.
Fr. Alan Watts tried, as eloquently and profoundly as DBH, in books like _Behold the Spirit_ and _The Supreme Identity_, to preach the exact same kerygma to the Church over half a century ago when he was an Anglican priest. I guess the general consciousness of the world was yet too immature to accept this message en masse back then, but I believe it bears reminding the Body of Christ that DBH is neither the first nor the most articulate exponent of this view.
That Watts couldn't find a home in the Anglican church is a tragedy. Moreover the way he writes about his departure in his autobiography feels as telling today as it did 70 years ago.
Well, judging by the responses to this book on Christian channels, this book has really upset a few people. Its amusing to listen to them obfuscate what appears to be a very simple statement.
Non duality doesn't just mean that appearances have no reality apart from the divine, but that what we are is identical with that reality. If there is some sense of being apart from God or ultimate reality, then its qualified non-duality.. not Advaita Vedanta.
It's curious that some Penteostal/charismatic televangelists have preached a little God theology.
In regards to my previous comment with “human being turned inside out”…….here is The Song of Amerigan from The Book of Leinster;
I am a wind in the sea (for depth)
I am a sea-wave upon the land (for heaviness)
I am the sound of the sea (for fearsomeness)
I am a stag of seven combats (for strength)
I am a hawk upon a cliff (for agility)
I am a tear-drop of the sun (for purity)
I am fair (i.e. there is no plant fairer than I)
I am a boar for valour (for harshness)
I am a salmon in a pool (for swiftness)
I am a lake in a plain (for size)
I am the excellence of arts (for beauty)
I am a spear that wages battle with plunder.
I am a god who froms subjects for a ruler
Who explains the stones of the mountains?
Who invokes the ages of the moon?
Where lies the setting fo the sun?
Who bears cattle from the house of Tethra?
Who are the cattle of Tethra who laugh?
What man, what god forms weapons?
Indeed, then;
I invoked a satirist…
a satirist of wind.
-R.A.S. MacAllister’s Translation
Beautiful - thanks for sharing, Shari. It somehow reminds me of Saint Patrick's "deer's cry" (or "breastplate") - Isn't it "Amergin" (not "American")?
@@MrHwaynefair yes it is Amerigan, silly auto correct! I’ll fix it. And yes to the similarity to St. Patrick’s prayer!
Once I was a five stone weakling. Today, I am two separate gorillas! ~ Neil Innes, The Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band.
I'm am "eastern orthodox" but circles I run in would find this kind of discourse threatening. I find it to be akin to breathing air untouched by the machine. I have never read or heard a single Orthodox person I know mention DBH. I find that to be odd given how "prolific" people say his work is. This talk felt resonant to me and I want to venture down the rabbit hole. What work should I start with?
The Experience of God is good.
Thanks Mark!
And how much scripture does he execute? And how does he miss translate the psalm? And how does david bellynn heart called himself anything
Shouldn’t it be spelled with a lowercase “g”
Who we are? Have you made the perennial mistake, right off the bat, Mark? Surely "what we are," is a prism of self-cross-examation if we want to follow Jesus in this 21st-century A.D. The Cosmos become Flesh is my Mystical experience of humanity's wisdom sayings & stories tradition. "I and the Father are One," of course. We are all children of Light & without the God-Star we would not exist, would we? Are you suffering the spiritual death of a blindingly obvious Reification Fallacy, Mark? Do you not get the meaning of the peerless Parable of the Sower? Do not understand how the Garden of Eden relates to your mind?
If all of us are gods is it so wrong to be ok with polytheism like Hinduism? All one God expressed in many Forms.
( Do Christians And Jews and "OTHER" non-Muslims go to Heaven? )
Quran 2:62
'' Those who believe (in the Quran) and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Christians and the Sabians->ANYAllah< Is The Protector Of Monasteries, Churches, Synagogues And The Mosques )
Quran 22:40
[They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, " Our Lord is God " And were it not that God checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of God is much mentioned. And God will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, God is Powerful and Exalted in Might.
Note: Why did Allah protected Churches and Synagogues if they worship false Allah ?
( Why Are There So Many Different Religions In The World ? )
Quran 5 48
''...... If God wanted He could have made all of you a single nation.( ie single religion ) But He willed otherwise in order to test you in what He has given you (ie Scriptures) therefore try to excel one another in good deeds. Ultimately you all shall return to God then He will show you the truth of those matters in which you '' >DISPUTE verb < not noun like other religions
Islam mean "submission" to God
( The above verse saying is that God will not accept a religion from the >MUSLIM< and the Non-Muslims but total "submission" to God )
Question: How Can Muslim And the Non-Muslim "submit" to the God?
Answer: Be kind to other human beings and Do not lie, Do not steal, Do not cheat, Do not hurt others, Do not be prideful and Do the charity work.
Note: If you obeyed all the ABOVE Allah-God's moral laws "YOU" submitted to God.( ie Islam mean "submission" to God )
The only people who will enter Paradise those who '' Submitted to God '' ( ie by Good Deeds )
God does NOT accept your religion of birth but only ''Your Total'' Submission to Him.
( God Allows Interfaith Marriages And Eat Food From the Christian And Jew And Vice Versa )
Quran 5:5
''This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture (ie Christian and Jew) is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And lawful in marriage are chaste women from among the believers (ie Muslim ) and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture (ie Christian and Jew) before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking [secret] lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless and he in the Hereafter will be among the losers.''
Note: > Only < Islam allows interfaith marriages (>14 hundredsSame God< but They are >ALL Corrupt< more or less, some more than others from their original foundational teaching. The older religion are MORE corrupted than newer religion.
Question to Muslim and Christian:
Does God / Allah only answer your pray ?
And God / Allah does not answer non Muslim / non Christian pray?
Did Allah '' Canceled '' all other religions Judaism and Christianity?
Quran 5:48
'' And We have revealed to you [O Muhammad] the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture ( ie New and old Testament ) and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. >>>TO EACH OF YOU WE PRESCRIBED A LAW AND A METHODone nation>differ qualified < for to enter Paradise )
On the day of judgement God will ''NOT'' judge humanity bases on Sunni Muslim sect VS Shia Muslim sect ''NOR'' by Muslim VS non-Muslim >but< Doer of Goods VS Doer of Evils.
'' YOUR " birth in the Muslim's family is NOT a > qualification < for to enter the Paradise.
'' YOUR " religion / sect / foot long beard is NOT a > qualification < for to enter the Paradise.
The > qualification < to enter Paradise is > Faith in God and Good Work
Thank you so much for taking the time to put this together. Your efforts are greatly appreciated.
Total misrepresentation of the scripture totally ignorant of that verse