I hope the weapontest surprised you. If you are interested in save training weapons made from rubber and hard plastic, here are the links: dominusgladius.com/drevkova-zbroia/534/ dominusgladius.com/drevkova-zbroia/537/
really informative presentation. thank you. you mentioned the safe pole-hammers you duelled with had 250gram heads. How heavy, roughly, is a real polehammer head? 750grams? 1 kg? 1.5kg?
how effective do you think this was on the battle fild in formation, like how do you invision its use and the differences to a duel? Like i imagine that grappeling was probably a lot less, coz its too dangerous when the men next and behind to your target are free to strike at you while youre defenveless
Ever since I read The Deeds of Jacques de Lalaing and Le Jeu de la Hache I was preaching that poleaxes/polehammers weren't meant for armour penetration or repeated bashing, since that would give little to no results. Jacques mostly used it as a spear to aim for the gaps, only occasionally using it as a hammer when he could deliver a very powerful blow, but never once he tried to penetrate armor, supposedly because he knew it would be fruitless.
Yep, I thought le Jeu was unique, but Pietro Monte also taught the the queue use until there was an opening. It's basically boxing: you jab until you get an opening, and then you come in with your rear hand for actual power.
I bet these would be used for a lot of repeated bashing in a battlefield environment where there would often be opportunities to strike from the second rank at a target who is already engaged. But yeah, in a duel that does not seem to be a good approach.
Seems silly that you wouldn't just have a spear or a halberd of some sort, then. The hammerhead would literally just be weighing you down. Surely someone stuck it on there, and people chose to keep making them, for a reason.
I think many get confused when they think of plate Like crossbows being better on armour at times, just that armour was multiple layers of maille or brigandine with windless crossbows not being a decisive counter to plate
Great job! I like how you are demonstrating how resistant plate armor is, dispelling some of the myths surrounding the supposed anti armor weapons. I also love the fact that you are testing the weapons in full contact sparring and not just theoretically study them. When it comes to the pollaxe though, while a lot of historical examples were dull I am not entirely convinced they were not sharpened. A sharp pollaxe would be very useful against opponents who were not fully armored, since chopping into those unarmored parts would be fight ending compared to trying to smash the armor, of which you have the hammer available.
I feel like we have seen a few tests like this against plate armor, and in most cases the plate (even if largely unhardened iron-alloys) provides sufficient protection that a human (or analog) would be largely uninjured from the weapon systems and/or circumstantial parameters of the testing. Additionally, most of these armor tests are setup to favor the weapon over the armored target (i.e. the armor being tested has fewer glancing blows do to the target being stationary and less yielding than human combatants), and yet we still see very few instances where a plate has been penetrated deeply enough to give consequential battlefield injury. I think a poleaxe/polehammer is still an optimal weapon for foot combat in plated harness, but that has more to do with the overall toolset and mechanical advantage such weapons offer.
I really liked the he put the armor on the flexy log. People move when they get hit, whether that's a full step back or the meat beneath being pushed around by the strike. One thing to note about mail and 'soft' armor, is that even if it doesn't get penetrated, backface deformation is something to consider. Modern bulletproof vests need to pass certain thresholds to be certified under NIJ standards in the US, and a big one is backface deformation. BFD can seriously injure the wearer, getting hit while wearing a vest is still like getting hit by a world class boxer. To circle back around, just like getting punched, moving with the hit can reduce the energy transferred by large margins, thus flexy log is probably a much more accurate 'mount' for testing with.
It's not so much about piercing the armor. It's that these weapons will hit you so hard that they will drop you anyway. Imagine getting whacked on the helmet by this hammer. I don't care how good the armor is, you're going down with a concussion.
Not surprised there was little to no penetration on the plate armor on these tests (armor works!) but I'm very curious what that kind of damage would look like to the people on the other side. Broken bones, broken necks, brusing, being knocked around, etc. Time to fund a ballistic gel head for Dequitem!
The main spike could be used to easily penetrate even the best mail. I believe that is exactly what it was designed to do. Nothing besides a good gun could reliably be used to penetrate quality plate armor in the late mideval period. That is why specialized weapons were adopted to exploit the armors only weakness, which was the gaps usually covered by mail.
Plate armor was still worn well into the 18th century. It had to be thicker to be resistant to bullets, but it could resist bullets until that period. That thickness meant extra weight, though, so it was typically only a breastplate worn in the final years.
Fiore de'i Liberi wrote that a pollaxe thrust could defeat plate armor: "This guard delivers a powerful thrust that can penetrate cuirasses & breastplates." It's possible this was hyperbole/boasting. On the other hand, period armor varied a lot in quality, especially circa 1400. Strength & skill likewise varies.
@@verdiss7487it’s actually the 19th century for some soldiers. Cuirassiers wore bulletproofed breastplates well into the 1800s, and even kept them until WW1.
@@Specter_1125 Some armor was worn in the 1800s, yes, but there is a fair bit of debate about whether it was still valuable at this point or just kept around as a tradition/status symbol. And by WW1, this was absolutely the case, armor was no longer worth its weight, even on horseback.
Most curious to me was learning that most heavily armored duels ended in grappling and wrestling. I of course knew that was a common end point, but I really had no idea it was so prevalent. I was aware that the end almost always came when the villain was on the ground.
truly an unfortunate outcome, i really thought it would go through the helmet! lucerne hammer will still be my favorite polearm though, such an awesome piece of history. thanks for everything you do dequitem
Armour is really op he's oke that's the reason that guns took off so fast because armour was getting to strong to be defeated easily and guns where the only thing powerfully enouth to easily pierce armour and inflict heave damage
thanks for showing Lucy some love! i feel like the Lucerne is often under represented in a lot of media. Which is a shame because it's such a cool weapon.
Thanks for doing the chain mail tests, the plate armor is the pinnacle, but chain and padding is the every man's armor. This weapon is absolutely badass.
Very informal. I had not considered that a spike may be better at transferring blunt force trauma through armor, if it settles within it. Even if it does not penetrate deeply, it must be a nasty hit.
Yeah. The primary thing you're penetrating with is not the weapon itself, but the force. People with huge bruises, broken bones, and concussions aren't going to resist much against you finishing them off or taking them captive.
@@DanielMWJ I agree with the concussion part. But I do not think even a broken bone would be demoralizing enough, in the face of death, to allow someone to kill you. Especially not a bruise. It will certainly make you an easier target, however.
@@Poeneutral adrenaline might just keep you long enough standing to finish the fight, people get shot and run away, or fight on, only to realize a few minutes later that they got hit. depends on who, when, where.. obviously
@@Poeneutral The spirit is willing, but the body is spongey and weak. It's really just a loss of initiative from having slightly dulled responses while already being on the backfoot (or worse) from being pounded.
Stuff like this is the most effective weapon to fight someone who has made by wearing armor most weapons ineffective against them. The point of armor is to make weapons less effective against the wearer, that is why the owners invested large fortunes to get them and wear them. People think that armor can be just negated, but in practice the most you can do is try to get around it and that is where these come in.
Fiore de'i Liberi's treatise does indicate that a single powerful blow to the helmet from a pollaxe could kill or incapacitate. Doing so wouldn't require penetrating armor. & a test of a historical halberd against a historical munitions-grade harness achieved penetration of the helmet by striking with the halberd's beak. So spikes & beaks could pierce plate armor at times, depending on the wielder & the armor in question.
@@dequitem Question! In Tods workshop bows vs arrows 2, they determined that mild steel acted similarilly to the cross laminated wrought iron that would have been common at Agincourt. How well would this weapon preform against plate that is mild steel? P.s love the work keep it up!
@@dequitem The thing for me is that this isn't technically their owm conclusion but rather a peer review of Alan Williams findings in The Knight and the Blast Furnace.
Your English is much better than my German, so please understand that I offer a correction only to help you. Hardened is pronounced "har-dend". the "-ed" at the end is pronounced as a "d". As with many other words in English that end in "ed", there is only a "d" or "t" sound, because unlike German, nothing is pronounced as it is spelled. Thanks for the content.
Absolutely love the video, and your massive cohones for fighting so firmly with these haha. I'd love to point out that some of the benefits of a poleaxe/polehammer are their reach, area-of-denial, and cost of manufacture vs. a longsword. A poleaxe or hammer gives you the ability to use it as a spear against cavalry, larger area of denial around you, and leverage strikes against an opponent both armored and un-armored, and more so to emphasize your point of knocking someone down. In a battlefield if you fall down, you're most certainly dead. Equally in a battlefield, there would be possibly 50 to 100 of you armed with these in formations, which also emphasizes that you can arm more people with these vs. trying to afford to make swords for everyone (which is also a prestigious item to own). However I'd imagine that a knight of the time would probably bring his entire "loadout" with him on campaign, sword and dagger on his person while wielding a poleaxe or polehammer, wherein they could drop those and pull out the sword, or dagger, for close quarters or individual duels. Armor multiplies your survivability but only if you have all the tools that can keep you hitting back :) Fantastic video, thanks for the great content!
Wow your channel has grown a lot! I've been watching you on and off for a long while now and these videos are just awesome. Glad to see you doing well!
I like the filter you used for the video. Makes it look like a painting
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any puncture wound deeper than 2 inches can be mortal, a spike like that of your Warhammer, can sever any mayor vein or artery, the narrow spike stab will provoke internal bleed on top of a potentially bone breaking contusion, if received on the viscera it can reduce organ function, kinetic force can shred organs like the liver, kidneys and brain, without any puncture. I'd like to see how well it does poking metal, chainmail and gambeson all together. Also, have you heard about partially reinforced plating? something like armor thicker in certain point's to protect the viscera? it was used at all? if so, was it successful? is that level of craftsmanship only attainable to the nobles? I'm not quite as versed in this topics as you sir. GReat content! btw greetings from Colombia (America)
So I think what can be taken away from this is that with the increased use of metal in armor, for instance, covering joints in 16th century armor, that the hammer could have been used more to lock up and disrupt the joints making it harder for one to react. If we look at the evolution of armor and how it moved to cover both more vulnerable spots and tie downs, that means weapons were utilized to take advantage of these openings.
It seems that armor is more effective than the movies would have us think. Based on movies, armor is merely more than cinematic acoutrement that work little more than papier mace.
@@DieLuftwaffelit’s an Elden ring reference. The lucerne hammer has been featured in several From Software games, so it’s where a lot of people first got introduced to them.
The images from Hans Talhoffer's manuscripts are absolutely showing techniques for an armored duel with unarmored figures. In the personal manuscript (1459), the figures randomly lose their armor in the middle of the armored-duel section but keep using armored techniques. Pollaxes of whatever variety are quite functional for unarmored fighting, however. They're not the best, but many halberds had similar basic stats & a halberd is quite potent in an unarmored duel or skirmish even if it's inferior to a spear.
When big media gives up on history to talk about bs conspiracies and aliens, it's up to the amazing community creators to work their magic. Great stuff!! 👏👏👏
I think its good to make sure armor in an armor test is on something with some, but not too much, give, to simulate that a body wearing it also has some give. it has some weight, but isn’t fastened solid to spot in space so that all the energy goes strait into the material at one point, but instead, some of it is dissipated by the body moving a bit with the blow is struck.
Thank you very much for testing diffrent quality material. i was commenting about that in a previous video of yours so im genuinely thankful beeing able to see that. i can imagine that people in the past didnt know how to overcome amor either. weapons like poleaxes and so forth where just the best bet. this is why grapling, ending it dirty on the ground is described to often. i wonder how much % did have plate on an historical battlefield
In the 15th century nearly everyone, but of course the quality and armored parts depends. Most men in arms only had a breastplate and helmet. But there are normaly no unarmored peasents on a battlefield.
That was a super interesting and informative video. 👍 Seems like most weapons used in armoured combat were designed to knock the opponent to the ground, rather than cutting through the armour. And in the case of a pole hammer/axe, use the spike to punch through the chain. 🤔
Although you guys should always keep in mind that your armor is much thicker and more uniform than the historical quality, potentially higher metallurgic quality too if high carbon. Limb defenses could be quite thin and much more susceptible to serious damage from very fine points concentrating impact energy, or just heavy blunt impacts on the hand/back of the head, etc.
Did you watch the video? I already used 0,8 mm steel. And I forged it traditionally with a hammer by hand, so the thickness isn't uniform. Yes the steel quality can be higher, but there are some outstanding 15th ans 16th century armors with the same high steel quality.
Poleaxe or polehammer seems like a great choice for a strong knight who knows he is not that good at wrestling. One accurate or lucky blow to the head has the potential to knock down the opponent, and you can get your ransom or win the duel.
You talk about when a penetrating weapon would injure or kill. Could you explain the general threshold for a lethal hit or a wounding hit with various weapons? PS your hair is majestic. PPS, what are the advantages or flaws of fluted armor versus regular armor?
can you elaborate with what you mean by "general threshold" everyone has another threshold for when they die, bigger guys obviously need more of a punch
@@BelieverOfChrist2 Knights of average size for the time. What would generally be a lethal hit or otherwise a wounding one, an injuring one, or a relatively ineffective strike?
Sounds interesting. @BeliverOfChrist2 has already successfully answered the armor question but the leathel hit discussion will be on my list of upcoming videos!
The spike on the pole hammer is not for trying to penetrate plate armor but for tripping and "scratching" and backslashing tendons, legs, arms necks and so on. Same for the axe of pole axe - the axe head has the same usage. U can use it as and axe but also as the beak. Same for the halberds - not primarily used for chopping but for backslashing after thrust and tripping your opponent. The main striking part of these weapons is the hammer head.
another thing. people are used to wars having huge amounts of casualties. but ancient melee combat didnt end with one side completely destroying the other. some battles did end this way but they were by far the exception and usually those casualties were the result of the breakdown of cohesion or route of the enemy.
Fascinating! Maybe a small hole would be enough to be able to hook your opponent off balance? Edit: i should have waited a bit longer when he addresses that idea.
it doesn't necessarily seem to be worth the effort to use as anti armor, because even if you go through, you're really only going through a few centimetres and there might be plate and/or Gambeson beneath that so how much are you really penetrating or causing harm?
Awesome video. Just a tip; ‘Hardened’ is pronounced ‘har-dund’ (2 syllables) and not ‘har-dun-nid’. Same with ‘shortened’ (pronounced ‘shor-tund’, with 2 syllables). Keep up the good work!
@@dequitem Your channel is great! Subscribed haha. Btw any chance of getting a hold of a ghiavarina in the future? I read it’s one of Fiore’s favorite weapons but I never see any demonstrations with it. Anyways, tks for the great content!
Hey @Dequitem have you ever tested work-hardened mild steel armor? A while back Tod and Matt Easton did that test with a rondel dagger against raw sheet metal and they got significant penetration. The thing is, plain mild sheet is usually softened from the factory to make it easier to work with. I'd be really interested to see if shaped and work-hardened mild steel would be enough to change those results
Hello again! Loved the video, covered a lot of things I was wondering about the weapons. I had a suggestion for a video, that being an overall idea of how one grapples while in a harness. Most of your fights all end with grappling and stabbing for gaps, and I was wondering if you could shed more light on that.
Uh I am really excited about this video. I bet I will see some correction in terms of how "Anti-Armor"-Weapon it is. I presume it will not be Armor piercing, but rather be Pain-under-Armor-bringing. Let's have a watch... Great video! Thank you for making this. I mostly thought the Beak is used for opponents with gambesons or Mail and the other Pieces are for letting the Knight go KO or get stabbed in the gaps of the armor. I really like your take on that matter. Your videos are awesome, especially your camera and open fighting. You are not only speaking theoretically, you also go on practical with your equipment against a resisting Partner.
I mean given that these strikes were to the shoulder i suspect that if you hit at that angle a few times no penetration would be needed to render the user permanently crippled lol I may be in a bit of a bubble but I didn't know people expected the plates, especially of a higher quality (and as we know from the findings a ton of stuff was well below what we consider hardened these days), would be pierced by these. It even just *looks* purpose meant to break maille. In fact we still use tools shaped like this beak to break welded chains lmao
My understanding of the pole hammer was that it was never meant to penetrate armor, in fact pracctically almost no weapon could cave through medieval plate (excluding an exceptionally strong individual, or poorly made metal). Maces, morning stars, warhammers all struggled to cause sufficient denting in the metal to kill and so it was mostly a battle of disorientation and searching for weak joints to attack through. I'd be happy though if anyone knows something here I don't as it is a curiosity of mine.
Well it was something. At least you would not feel hopeless and attempt a full power attack in a weaker part of the armor. With some other weapons it would be hopeless.
I'm very glad that in the sphere of historical arms, this complex and intriguing area of historical sciences, there is always place for both researching the in-depth documents and hitting stuff (as well as, in a safe manner, people) with large spiky objects. Btw, I was wondering if the tassets (don't know if that is the correct term, I mean the metal skirt) of your armor are based on any historical examples. The somewhat angular shape looks cool, I just want to see more.
It is often underestimated how strong properly heat treated steel plates are. There's no realistic way to penetrate plate of that quality with melee weapons.
That spike could get you killed I feel. If it gets stuck that could be a nightmare. A pole axe would be more suited for myself. I like the spear head though.
Crazy you could beat that plate all day and just give them a bruise. But any kids Glock will go straight through it. For its day plate armor was such a cheat code for the rich and royal.
Poleaxe on battlefield, long sword in duels. If you have someone standing next to you then you want reach and a strong forward downstroke. You won’t benefit from sword swipes in a line formation.
So... people made these things and continued to buy and wield them instead of something more practical like a halberd or plain ol' longsword why, exactly? By the time these things were in-vogue quite a lot of people were wearing cuirasses at least. I didn't think that anyone expected any part of this to actually spike _through_ solid plate, just cause enough force to knock someone over or at least keep them down.
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The Points are for concentrating power, per square inch... Not for Armor penetration. The Spike, for finding weak spots and getting through mail.
Talhoffer does not depict pollaxe combat outside of armour. This is a common misconception - in truth the section is entirely in armour and the artist for reasons unknown to us decided to stop drawing the participants in armour partway through the treatise. The section starts with them armoured and never once indicates it's switching to unarmoured combat.
You turn my words. Yes it shows unarmored people with poleaxe, but they show armored techniques without armor, like many people show techniques without armor today. So the reason is clear. It's easyer to show a technique and hold still without armor, so the artist can draw it.
yeah, plate is still the king of medieval armor, so even anti-armor weapons aren't the most effective at penetrating it. Granted, even with armor like that you don't want to take direct hits from a bec de corbin, there is still a great deal of raw force in every strike, lethal or not.
Test fails on a fundamental level because you never consider the man behind the armor. It's a hammer. Hammers are designed to transfer energy. The goal of a war hammer (pole or not) has always been to cause contusions, bruising, and concussions. The beak isn't there for penetrative it's there for grappling. You poke with the spear point, waiting for an opening, and then deliver a big hammer blow. This will either stun the enemy (head hit), dissable them (limb hit), or simply cause severe pain and tissue damage (body hit). Once the enemy has been weekend or stunned, the beka can be used to haul them down, and the spear point can find an opening for the kill. If you want to do a real test, but a gel torso or head behind some armor and see what kind of internal hemorrhaging you get. Medieval accounts have repeatedly stated hammers, mauls, and Maces being used against armor. I trust they knew what they were doing and that modern reanactors just don't understand how to use them.
It's ironic that when the armour developed into its most perfect form, black powder weapons became popular and the whole concept of armour became gradually anachronistic.
As a fun fact - it actually didn't. Extreme thick plates become popular which even protected against bullets. The main reason full plate armor ceased to be relevant ist that the huge infantry Formation of the 16th century and later were well euqipped against heavy cavalry plus these expensive full body plate armors were way too expensive to field a large number of them. But they were still popular with the very rich and powerful class
I am no professional at all.. not even an amateur.. Just the typical random internet guy. However, when i would have to think about how this tool was used I'd go towards finding gaps in an armor. Further I think that in case your oponent is using sword and shield you'd have a massive advantage in reach and leverage. Keeping the enemy from you while being able to "pull" the shield away with the beak and then going forward to penetrate the gaps in the armor (under the arms or maybe between helmet and breastplate) with the speared front. The hammer part? I have no clue at all.. maybe for lesser armored foes to deliver more blunt force trauma to the head? Anyways, great Video! Subbed! :D
Sounds reasonable, but in reality it didn't work so well. A shield user can overcome you and close the reach disadvantage. A onehanded sword is much more versatile in closed combat.
Thank you so much for this video! You had teased it in comments before, but it's even better than I was expecting. If you managed to get your opponent on the ground, would you try penetrating gaps with the queue/buttspike or another part of the polehammer, or would you prefer mounting with a rondel dagger?
I hope the weapontest surprised you.
If you are interested in save training weapons made from rubber and hard plastic, here are the links:
dominusgladius.com/drevkova-zbroia/534/
dominusgladius.com/drevkova-zbroia/537/
really informative presentation. thank you. you mentioned the safe pole-hammers you duelled with had 250gram heads. How heavy, roughly, is a real polehammer head? 750grams? 1 kg? 1.5kg?
@@ericaugust1501 that's a good guess. I think it's around 600 to 1300 grams max
how effective do you think this was on the battle fild in formation, like how do you invision its use and the differences to a duel?
Like i imagine that grappeling was probably a lot less, coz its too dangerous when the men next and behind to your target are free to strike at you while youre defenveless
@@giftzwerg7345 I am not a battlefield expert but I think the same!
In my opinion, your channel is the best about medieval weapons
This is definitely Dequitem, an armored fighter in non-choreographed knight fights like these:
"I am and I will continue to be!" Matt Easton
Ever since I read The Deeds of Jacques de Lalaing and Le Jeu de la Hache I was preaching that poleaxes/polehammers weren't meant for armour penetration or repeated bashing, since that would give little to no results. Jacques mostly used it as a spear to aim for the gaps, only occasionally using it as a hammer when he could deliver a very powerful blow, but never once he tried to penetrate armor, supposedly because he knew it would be fruitless.
Yep, I thought le Jeu was unique, but Pietro Monte also taught the the queue use until there was an opening.
It's basically boxing: you jab until you get an opening, and then you come in with your rear hand for actual power.
Yes that definitely a good way to use it!
or even could get stuck in the armor, and in that instant you'd be basically disarmed and exposed
I bet these would be used for a lot of repeated bashing in a battlefield environment where there would often be opportunities to strike from the second rank at a target who is already engaged. But yeah, in a duel that does not seem to be a good approach.
Seems silly that you wouldn't just have a spear or a halberd of some sort, then. The hammerhead would literally just be weighing you down. Surely someone stuck it on there, and people chose to keep making them, for a reason.
I am glad to see you show the test vs maille armour. I think the hammer is still anti-armour, its just plate armour is anti-anti-armour
I think many get confused when they think of plate
Like crossbows being better on armour at times, just that armour was multiple layers of maille or brigandine with windless crossbows not being a decisive counter to plate
1:03 bro was sent to sleep here.
Love it how realistic your fights are portrayed. Plain and simple. No fancy shit.
Hey those look pauldrons look familiar!! Haha, great test and analysis my friend.
Yes now you know we're the holes came from.
@@dequitemhaha indeed
This is really interesting. The falcons beak under performed to my expectations. 🤔
Mine too.
Great job! I like how you are demonstrating how resistant plate armor is, dispelling some of the myths surrounding the supposed anti armor weapons. I also love the fact that you are testing the weapons in full contact sparring and not just theoretically study them.
When it comes to the pollaxe though, while a lot of historical examples were dull I am not entirely convinced they were not sharpened. A sharp pollaxe would be very useful against opponents who were not fully armored, since chopping into those unarmored parts would be fight ending compared to trying to smash the armor, of which you have the hammer available.
"Don't kill your friends." Excellent advice! 😂 Great video as always!
I feel like we have seen a few tests like this against plate armor, and in most cases the plate (even if largely unhardened iron-alloys) provides sufficient protection that a human (or analog) would be largely uninjured from the weapon systems and/or circumstantial parameters of the testing. Additionally, most of these armor tests are setup to favor the weapon over the armored target (i.e. the armor being tested has fewer glancing blows do to the target being stationary and less yielding than human combatants), and yet we still see very few instances where a plate has been penetrated deeply enough to give consequential battlefield injury. I think a poleaxe/polehammer is still an optimal weapon for foot combat in plated harness, but that has more to do with the overall toolset and mechanical advantage such weapons offer.
I really liked the he put the armor on the flexy log. People move when they get hit, whether that's a full step back or the meat beneath being pushed around by the strike. One thing to note about mail and 'soft' armor, is that even if it doesn't get penetrated, backface deformation is something to consider. Modern bulletproof vests need to pass certain thresholds to be certified under NIJ standards in the US, and a big one is backface deformation. BFD can seriously injure the wearer, getting hit while wearing a vest is still like getting hit by a world class boxer. To circle back around, just like getting punched, moving with the hit can reduce the energy transferred by large margins, thus flexy log is probably a much more accurate 'mount' for testing with.
It's not so much about piercing the armor. It's that these weapons will hit you so hard that they will drop you anyway. Imagine getting whacked on the helmet by this hammer. I don't care how good the armor is, you're going down with a concussion.
As a reenactment participant. I truly enjoy your descriptions, discussions and exhibitions.
Thank you. Keep it coming please.
Not surprised there was little to no penetration on the plate armor on these tests (armor works!) but I'm very curious what that kind of damage would look like to the people on the other side. Broken bones, broken necks, brusing, being knocked around, etc. Time to fund a ballistic gel head for Dequitem!
The main spike could be used to easily penetrate even the best mail. I believe that is exactly what it was designed to do. Nothing besides a good gun could reliably be used to penetrate quality plate armor in the late mideval period. That is why specialized weapons were adopted to exploit the armors only weakness, which was the gaps usually covered by mail.
Plate armor was still worn well into the 18th century. It had to be thicker to be resistant to bullets, but it could resist bullets until that period. That thickness meant extra weight, though, so it was typically only a breastplate worn in the final years.
Fiore de'i Liberi wrote that a pollaxe thrust could defeat plate armor: "This guard delivers a powerful thrust that can penetrate cuirasses & breastplates." It's possible this was hyperbole/boasting. On the other hand, period armor varied a lot in quality, especially circa 1400. Strength & skill likewise varies.
Even a good gun might not do the trick against high quality armor, at least the important parts like helmet and breastplate.
@@verdiss7487it’s actually the 19th century for some soldiers. Cuirassiers wore bulletproofed breastplates well into the 1800s, and even kept them until WW1.
@@Specter_1125 Some armor was worn in the 1800s, yes, but there is a fair bit of debate about whether it was still valuable at this point or just kept around as a tradition/status symbol. And by WW1, this was absolutely the case, armor was no longer worth its weight, even on horseback.
Most curious to me was learning that most heavily armored duels ended in grappling and wrestling. I of course knew that was a common end point, but I really had no idea it was so prevalent. I was aware that the end almost always came when the villain was on the ground.
truly an unfortunate outcome, i really thought it would go through the helmet! lucerne hammer will still be my favorite polearm though, such an awesome piece of history. thanks for everything you do dequitem
Well the battlefield wasn't designed to be fair, it's not like with counters in games. The more complete and brutal the victory, the better it is.
Your videos are some of the most informative on armored fighting!
Love your non-choregraphed fighting and the knowledge you bring. Great video.
That's a truly fearsome weapon! Great video as always.
@1:08 Holy crap! That hit to the head screamed "Concussion!" Hope that guy was ok.
He is.
Armour is really op he's oke that's the reason that guns took off so fast because armour was getting to strong to be defeated easily and guns where the only thing powerfully enouth to easily pierce armour and inflict heave damage
@@joeyRaven201It was a plastic hammer.
I have never found a channel that was perfect for me. Only this one.
thanks for showing Lucy some love! i feel like the Lucerne is often under represented in a lot of media. Which is a shame because it's such a cool weapon.
Thanks for doing the chain mail tests, the plate armor is the pinnacle, but chain and padding is the every man's armor. This weapon is absolutely badass.
Very informal. I had not considered that a spike may be better at transferring blunt force trauma through armor, if it settles within it. Even if it does not penetrate deeply, it must be a nasty hit.
Yeah. The primary thing you're penetrating with is not the weapon itself, but the force. People with huge bruises, broken bones, and concussions aren't going to resist much against you finishing them off or taking them captive.
@@DanielMWJ I agree with the concussion part. But I do not think even a broken bone would be demoralizing enough, in the face of death, to allow someone to kill you. Especially not a bruise. It will certainly make you an easier target, however.
@@Poeneutral adrenaline might just keep you long enough standing to finish the fight, people get shot and run away, or fight on, only to realize a few minutes later that they got hit. depends on who, when, where.. obviously
@@Poeneutral The spirit is willing, but the body is spongey and weak.
It's really just a loss of initiative from having slightly dulled responses while already being on the backfoot (or worse) from being pounded.
Absolutely!!!
This is a well shot video. Great job with the explanation and demonstration.
Stuff like this is the most effective weapon to fight someone who has made by wearing armor most weapons ineffective against them. The point of armor is to make weapons less effective against the wearer, that is why the owners invested large fortunes to get them and wear them. People think that armor can be just negated, but in practice the most you can do is try to get around it and that is where these come in.
Yeah, only bullets negate plate armor. Even hitting it with a big hammer, I would much rather have a bruise than a broken bone.
This is a great channel!! So eye opening as to medieval battling.
this is the coolest and realest knight shit if ever seen.
Tolle Doku...mit stimmungsvollen Kampfbeispielen...Wie immer...hohe Qualität und supi Optik...Danke!!!
Fiore de'i Liberi's treatise does indicate that a single powerful blow to the helmet from a pollaxe could kill or incapacitate. Doing so wouldn't require penetrating armor. & a test of a historical halberd against a historical munitions-grade harness achieved penetration of the helmet by striking with the halberd's beak. So spikes & beaks could pierce plate armor at times, depending on the wielder & the armor in question.
Yes but normaly not hardened armor of a knight.
@@dequitem Question! In Tods workshop bows vs arrows 2, they determined that mild steel acted similarilly to the cross laminated wrought iron that would have been common at Agincourt. How well would this weapon preform against plate that is mild steel?
P.s love the work keep it up!
@@zacharyshoemaker835 I don't agree with tod there, but something between my hardened steel test and the iron rondel.
@@dequitem The thing for me is that this isn't technically their owm conclusion but rather a peer review of Alan Williams findings in The Knight and the Blast Furnace.
Your English is much better than my German, so please understand that I offer a correction only to help you. Hardened is pronounced "har-dend". the "-ed" at the end is pronounced as a "d". As with many other words in English that end in "ed", there is only a "d" or "t" sound, because unlike German, nothing is pronounced as it is spelled. Thanks for the content.
Thanks.
Awesome production as always
Absolutely love the video, and your massive cohones for fighting so firmly with these haha.
I'd love to point out that some of the benefits of a poleaxe/polehammer are their reach, area-of-denial, and cost of manufacture vs. a longsword. A poleaxe or hammer gives you the ability to use it as a spear against cavalry, larger area of denial around you, and leverage strikes against an opponent both armored and un-armored, and more so to emphasize your point of knocking someone down. In a battlefield if you fall down, you're most certainly dead. Equally in a battlefield, there would be possibly 50 to 100 of you armed with these in formations, which also emphasizes that you can arm more people with these vs. trying to afford to make swords for everyone (which is also a prestigious item to own).
However I'd imagine that a knight of the time would probably bring his entire "loadout" with him on campaign, sword and dagger on his person while wielding a poleaxe or polehammer, wherein they could drop those and pull out the sword, or dagger, for close quarters or individual duels. Armor multiplies your survivability but only if you have all the tools that can keep you hitting back :)
Fantastic video, thanks for the great content!
Wow your channel has grown a lot! I've been watching you on and off for a long while now and these videos are just awesome. Glad to see you doing well!
Thanks man!
I like the filter you used for the video. Makes it look like a painting
any puncture wound deeper than 2 inches can be mortal, a spike like that of your Warhammer, can sever any mayor vein or artery, the narrow spike stab will provoke internal bleed on top of a potentially bone breaking contusion, if received on the viscera it can reduce organ function, kinetic force can shred organs like the liver, kidneys and brain, without any puncture.
I'd like to see how well it does poking metal, chainmail and gambeson all together. Also, have you heard about partially reinforced plating? something like armor thicker in certain point's to protect the viscera? it was used at all? if so, was it successful? is that level of craftsmanship only attainable to the nobles? I'm not quite as versed in this topics as you sir. GReat content! btw greetings from Colombia (America)
It's hard to aim for it or rely on it.
Pretty much all armor was thicker from the front of the chest & helmet, and thinner in the limbs, faulds & sides...
Pretty cool. You have some nice weapons. Thx for the test and infos.
So I think what can be taken away from this is that with the increased use of metal in armor, for instance, covering joints in 16th century armor, that the hammer could have been used more to lock up and disrupt the joints making it harder for one to react. If we look at the evolution of armor and how it moved to cover both more vulnerable spots and tie downs, that means weapons were utilized to take advantage of these openings.
It seems that armor is more effective than the movies would have us think. Based on movies, armor is merely more than cinematic acoutrement that work little more than papier mace.
man I love these videos, very rare genera of content which I've searched for over many years
Okay but what's the best Ash of War to use on it?
Can't go wrong with spinning slash, though braggarts roar is great too.
Wtf?
@@PancakesEnjoyer Shriek of sorrow when it fails to penetrate any armor
@@DieLuftwaffelit’s an Elden ring reference. The lucerne hammer has been featured in several From Software games, so it’s where a lot of people first got introduced to them.
I prefer Storm Assault.
Great video! Thank you for doing these tests
The images from Hans Talhoffer's manuscripts are absolutely showing techniques for an armored duel with unarmored figures. In the personal manuscript (1459), the figures randomly lose their armor in the middle of the armored-duel section but keep using armored techniques. Pollaxes of whatever variety are quite functional for unarmored fighting, however. They're not the best, but many halberds had similar basic stats & a halberd is quite potent in an unarmored duel or skirmish even if it's inferior to a spear.
Thanks for your insight, very interesting test and video!
It’s a lot lighter than I expected!
The coolest thing I've seen in a while..
Awesome video mate. Thanks for taking the time to make this. G'day from Australia.
When big media gives up on history to talk about bs conspiracies and aliens, it's up to the amazing community creators to work their magic. Great stuff!! 👏👏👏
I think its good to make sure armor in an armor test is on something with some, but not too much, give, to simulate that a body wearing it also has some give. it has some weight, but isn’t fastened solid to spot in space so that all the energy goes strait into the material at one point, but instead, some of it is dissipated by the body moving a bit with the blow is struck.
Какой молодец спасибо за то что объяснил
Thank you very much for testing diffrent quality material. i was commenting about that in a previous video of yours so im genuinely thankful beeing able to see that. i can imagine that people in the past didnt know how to overcome amor either. weapons like poleaxes and so forth where just the best bet. this is why grapling, ending it dirty on the ground is described to often.
i wonder how much % did have plate on an historical battlefield
In the 15th century nearly everyone, but of course the quality and armored parts depends. Most men in arms only had a breastplate and helmet. But there are normaly no unarmored peasents on a battlefield.
That was a super interesting and informative video. 👍
Seems like most weapons used in armoured combat were designed to knock the opponent to the ground, rather than cutting through the armour. And in the case of a pole hammer/axe, use the spike to punch through the chain. 🤔
Although you guys should always keep in mind that your armor is much thicker and more uniform than the historical quality, potentially higher metallurgic quality too if high carbon. Limb defenses could be quite thin and much more susceptible to serious damage from very fine points concentrating impact energy, or just heavy blunt impacts on the hand/back of the head, etc.
Did you watch the video? I already used 0,8 mm steel. And I forged it traditionally with a hammer by hand, so the thickness isn't uniform. Yes the steel quality can be higher, but there are some outstanding 15th ans 16th century armors with the same high steel quality.
Poleaxe or polehammer seems like a great choice for a strong knight who knows he is not that good at wrestling. One accurate or lucky blow to the head has the potential to knock down the opponent, and you can get your ransom or win the duel.
I'm a simple man. I saw a guy in a full suit of armor holding a warhammer and I hit like.
Absolutely awesome im about to binge watch now
Grats to the camera man for going back in time to ask a knight for this.
😅
You talk about when a penetrating weapon would injure or kill. Could you explain the general threshold for a lethal hit or a wounding hit with various weapons?
PS your hair is majestic.
PPS, what are the advantages or flaws of fluted armor versus regular armor?
flutes armor makes it harder to deliver a solid hit, and actually adds more strength to the armor
can you elaborate with what you mean by "general threshold" everyone has another threshold for when they die, bigger guys obviously need more of a punch
@@BelieverOfChrist2 Knights of average size for the time. What would generally be a lethal hit or otherwise a wounding one, an injuring one, or a relatively ineffective strike?
Sounds interesting. @BeliverOfChrist2 has already successfully answered the armor question but the leathel hit discussion will be on my list of upcoming videos!
@@dequitem the fans will keep giving topics, dont worry!
The spike on the pole hammer is not for trying to penetrate plate armor but for tripping and "scratching" and backslashing tendons, legs, arms necks and so on. Same for the axe of pole axe - the axe head has the same usage. U can use it as and axe but also as the beak. Same for the halberds - not primarily used for chopping but for backslashing after thrust and tripping your opponent. The main striking part of these weapons is the hammer head.
another thing. people are used to wars having huge amounts of casualties. but ancient melee combat didnt end with one side completely destroying the other. some battles did end this way but they were by far the exception and usually those casualties were the result of the breakdown of cohesion or route of the enemy.
Those hits to the head look strong.
Because they were strong. Sorry to my friend 😬.
I will get one of these bad boys soon.
Love them
Fascinating! Maybe a small hole would be enough to be able to hook your opponent off balance?
Edit: i should have waited a bit longer when he addresses that idea.
it doesn't necessarily seem to be worth the effort to use as anti armor, because even if you go through, you're really only going through a few centimetres and there might be plate and/or Gambeson beneath that so how much are you really penetrating or causing harm?
Bravo! Finally! This is the video the internet needed!! Love it!
Awesome video. Just a tip; ‘Hardened’ is pronounced ‘har-dund’ (2 syllables) and not ‘har-dun-nid’. Same with ‘shortened’ (pronounced ‘shor-tund’, with 2 syllables).
Keep up the good work!
Ups. I try better!
@@dequitem Your channel is great! Subscribed haha. Btw any chance of getting a hold of a ghiavarina in the future? I read it’s one of Fiore’s favorite weapons but I never see any demonstrations with it. Anyways, tks for the great content!
@@vaporz109 is there a English translation for the weapon? Do you talk about the double spear?
The forest setting adds great atmosphere to your presentation.
I do question the validity of the penetration depths in the mail test, as you are swinging into wood as opposed to flesh.
Yes but the wood was rotten and the ring stopped it not the wood.
Hey @Dequitem have you ever tested work-hardened mild steel armor?
A while back Tod and Matt Easton did that test with a rondel dagger against raw sheet metal and they got significant penetration. The thing is, plain mild sheet is usually softened from the factory to make it easier to work with. I'd be really interested to see if shaped and work-hardened mild steel would be enough to change those results
Me two. But I have to buy a sharp dagger first.
Hello again! Loved the video, covered a lot of things I was wondering about the weapons. I had a suggestion for a video, that being an overall idea of how one grapples while in a harness. Most of your fights all end with grappling and stabbing for gaps, and I was wondering if you could shed more light on that.
I will defenetly do that in the future. It is on my list with nearly 100 other themes 😬
Uh I am really excited about this video.
I bet I will see some correction in terms of how "Anti-Armor"-Weapon it is. I presume it will not be Armor piercing, but rather be Pain-under-Armor-bringing.
Let's have a watch...
Great video! Thank you for making this.
I mostly thought the Beak is used for opponents with gambesons or Mail and the other Pieces are for letting the Knight go KO or get stabbed in the gaps of the armor.
I really like your take on that matter.
Your videos are awesome, especially your camera and open fighting. You are not only speaking theoretically, you also go on practical with your equipment against a resisting Partner.
Astonished at how well the armor did; I guessed it would be opened right up.
Being on something with flex actually simulates how well it would preform better.
I mean given that these strikes were to the shoulder i suspect that if you hit at that angle a few times no penetration would be needed to render the user permanently crippled lol
I may be in a bit of a bubble but I didn't know people expected the plates, especially of a higher quality (and as we know from the findings a ton of stuff was well below what we consider hardened these days), would be pierced by these. It even just *looks* purpose meant to break maille. In fact we still use tools shaped like this beak to break welded chains lmao
I don't think that you injure someone trough the plate.
My understanding of the pole hammer was that it was never meant to penetrate armor, in fact pracctically almost no weapon could cave through medieval plate (excluding an exceptionally strong individual, or poorly made metal). Maces, morning stars, warhammers all struggled to cause sufficient denting in the metal to kill and so it was mostly a battle of disorientation and searching for weak joints to attack through. I'd be happy though if anyone knows something here I don't as it is a curiosity of mine.
Well it was something. At least you would not feel hopeless and attempt a full power attack in a weaker part of the armor. With some other weapons it would be hopeless.
I'm very glad that in the sphere of historical arms, this complex and intriguing area of historical sciences, there is always place for both researching the in-depth documents and hitting stuff (as well as, in a safe manner, people) with large spiky objects.
Btw, I was wondering if the tassets (don't know if that is the correct term, I mean the metal skirt) of your armor are based on any historical examples. The somewhat angular shape looks cool, I just want to see more.
Yes it's historical based. Most of the surviving tasets have more decorations.
Always loved the bec de Corbin, used it in a Warnanlage mod a while back, always thought it was sick.
Deine Autokorrektur hat mich zum lachen gebracht. Grüße!
those fights are beautifull
Knights are so god damn cool. Can't wait to finish my suit of armor.
hey the quality is unreal!! would you mind naming the Camera Setup?
Fujifilm XT5
Another amazing video from Dequitem. Made my day.
Just found your channel through shorts, i love the combat you do. Are you german ?
Great historical weapons and armor impressive to see strength of modern smithing.
Plates were so much better than I thought
It is often underestimated how strong properly heat treated steel plates are. There's no realistic way to penetrate plate of that quality with melee weapons.
That weapon has "deadly" written all over it😮. Nonstop action all over 1's face. Very powerful battle's 👍💯💙❕❕❕
That spike could get you killed I feel. If it gets stuck that could be a nightmare. A pole axe would be more suited for myself. I like the spear head though.
Crazy you could beat that plate all day and just give them a bruise. But any kids Glock will go straight through it.
For its day plate armor was such a cheat code for the rich and royal.
Poleaxe on battlefield, long sword in duels. If you have someone standing next to you then you want reach and a strong forward downstroke. You won’t benefit from sword swipes in a line formation.
Specialized longswords for armored dueling were somewhere between typical longswords & pollaxes.
Always fascinating
So... people made these things and continued to buy and wield them instead of something more practical like a halberd or plain ol' longsword why, exactly? By the time these things were in-vogue quite a lot of people were wearing cuirasses at least. I didn't think that anyone expected any part of this to actually spike _through_ solid plate, just cause enough force to knock someone over or at least keep them down.
The Points are for concentrating power, per square inch... Not for Armor penetration.
The Spike, for finding weak spots and getting through mail.
Talhoffer does not depict pollaxe combat outside of armour. This is a common misconception - in truth the section is entirely in armour and the artist for reasons unknown to us decided to stop drawing the participants in armour partway through the treatise. The section starts with them armoured and never once indicates it's switching to unarmoured combat.
You turn my words. Yes it shows unarmored people with poleaxe, but they show armored techniques without armor, like many people show techniques without armor today. So the reason is clear. It's easyer to show a technique and hold still without armor, so the artist can draw it.
Him 0:44 : I am an armored fighter in non-choreograph knight fight like those:
also him 10 second later : proceed to murder his homie.
He was fine.... I guess, or he respawned.
yeah, plate is still the king of medieval armor, so even anti-armor weapons aren't the most effective at penetrating it. Granted, even with armor like that you don't want to take direct hits from a bec de corbin, there is still a great deal of raw force in every strike, lethal or not.
Test fails on a fundamental level because you never consider the man behind the armor.
It's a hammer. Hammers are designed to transfer energy. The goal of a war hammer (pole or not) has always been to cause contusions, bruising, and concussions. The beak isn't there for penetrative it's there for grappling.
You poke with the spear point, waiting for an opening, and then deliver a big hammer blow. This will either stun the enemy (head hit), dissable them (limb hit), or simply cause severe pain and tissue damage (body hit). Once the enemy has been weekend or stunned, the beka can be used to haul them down, and the spear point can find an opening for the kill.
If you want to do a real test, but a gel torso or head behind some armor and see what kind of internal hemorrhaging you get.
Medieval accounts have repeatedly stated hammers, mauls, and Maces being used against armor. I trust they knew what they were doing and that modern reanactors just don't understand how to use them.
It's ironic that when the armour developed into its most perfect form, black powder weapons became popular and the whole concept of armour became gradually anachronistic.
As a fun fact - it actually didn't. Extreme thick plates become popular which even protected against bullets. The main reason full plate armor ceased to be relevant ist that the huge infantry Formation of the 16th century and later were well euqipped against heavy cavalry plus these expensive full body plate armors were way too expensive to field a large number of them. But they were still popular with the very rich and powerful class
@@afistfulfett7526Exactly muskets weren't as good as other weapons they just were really cost effective
First time here. I've immediately recognized your German accent 🥰. Based channel! I subbed.
I am no professional at all.. not even an amateur.. Just the typical random internet guy. However, when i would have to think about how this tool was used I'd go towards finding gaps in an armor. Further I think that in case your oponent is using sword and shield you'd have a massive advantage in reach and leverage. Keeping the enemy from you while being able to "pull" the shield away with the beak and then going forward to penetrate the gaps in the armor (under the arms or maybe between helmet and breastplate) with the speared front. The hammer part? I have no clue at all.. maybe for lesser armored foes to deliver more blunt force trauma to the head?
Anyways, great Video! Subbed! :D
Sounds reasonable, but in reality it didn't work so well. A shield user can overcome you and close the reach disadvantage. A onehanded sword is much more versatile in closed combat.
Как для человека который только начал собирать свой первый комплект доспехов, было довольно морально больно смотреть на насилие над этими доспехами
Thank you so much for this video! You had teased it in comments before, but it's even better than I was expecting.
If you managed to get your opponent on the ground, would you try penetrating gaps with the queue/buttspike or another part of the polehammer, or would you prefer mounting with a rondel dagger?
Defenetly the but and front spike!