When we built these machine at K&T, the spindle bearings are very high precision- and expensive. I can see there is nothing wrong with that spindle. You have a winner.
@Current Batches there are 3 ball thrust bearings with spacers in the nose. In the tail there is a double sealed radial ball bearing-That one is not a high precision.
You need to check the "other" runout - since the head rides on a dovetail slide, notice that there are gibs on both sides instead of just one. This is because the head has to be precisely centered if the ways are ever rescraped. If the head is off side to side, milling a 3/4" hole with a 3/4" cutter would wallow the hole out a bit if the head were rotated. To do this, you have to zero the head in and out precisely. I zero mine on the vernier with the head travelling OUT toward the 4" offset (there is lash, you have to pick which direction) Depending on the majority of the milling you do, you may want to zero it the other way. I tend to enlarge radii more frequently so OUT works best for me. After that is zeroed as best you can, park the indicator on the side of your gauge pin and orbit the head 360. There will be some side-to-side runout that can be reduced by adjusting both gibs. This shifts the axis of the entire spindle assy a bit and you can get within your .0002". Mine's running .0003" now and is due for a gib adjustment.
Keith, I have to laugh - I've never heard of a machine like this one, and yet I can already think of three different jobs where a 2D would be the perfect solution! Thanks for keeping these marvelous machines healthy and active.
I have one of these machines. I've only ever seen one more. I think mine was brought to Britain in ww2. It has been used for many complicated jobs over the years, particularly pitch circle drilling. Great video!
I think a more accurate measurement of the runout would be obtained by turning the spindle by hand or running the machine at a much lower speed - because the measuring tip of the indicator can bounce of any irregularities and give a false (too large) reading. Thanks for the video - that's a beautiful beast you have there!
The gauge has resonant frequencies. If you happen to run the spindle at or near those frequencies the needle will swing beyond the actual runout. Likewise, if you run the spindle at a speed between those frequencies the needles swing will be less than the actual runout. Turn the spindle slowly, either by hand or at most a handful of rpm. That will give you an accurate indication of the spindle's runout. Your conclusions based on the 'measurements' you did on the video are misleading at best and are useless.
In that range clocking the collet becomes part of the process . A bit of a long process but one done thing could be spot on . To have a machine that is still in spec after this many year is a very good find you are very lucky .
I couldn't help but feel for that indicator. i was taught hey arent meant to wip around like that. None the less, awesome machine ! thanks for sharing as always :)
That would certainly make your day. For a 1954 machine to have only 2 tenths run out is truly amazing. It has been well looked after. Thanks for the video.
Many K&T machines came out of the government storage depot (salt caverns) in Hutchinson, KS and many machines were new when placed there. A company that I worked for in the 60s bought 3 new short bed casing lathes and at that time there 100s of machines including K&T rotary head milling machines.
Hello Keith, I bought one of these machines about a year and a half ago. It came with K&T tooling. I got #20 and #30 taper AND ARE MARKED K&T. It came with a Jacobs chuck and small boring head. The collets for those two pieces are also marked K&T. FYI I have a Tree vertical head for a Brown and Sharpe Horizontal mill that takes Z collets. I have a Y and a ZZ collet. None of these work on the K&T mill. My mill was repainted sky blue, had a power feed added to the Y axis, and had a DRO. The only bad thing is the table has a bad gouge. I can send some photos if you would like. I haven't really used it yet, but am anxious to get to it. Thanks for your videos!
I briefly worked in a shop that had two of these. These were very handy machines. You could step it up and in with a ball mill to machine spherical radii making mold models for the paragraph.
When placing any pin in an acorn style collet always nake sure the shank of the tool or pin protrudes from the bottom of the collet for maximum accuracy and rigidity!
This Old Tony just did a video on runout in collets. He found the biggest culprit was cheap collets. He was able to cleanup a few burrs and such and make them somewhat better.
Keith your collets look like a Z style double taper. They do come in different sizes such a Z, ZZ and so on. The length of a Z is a 1.50 and the outside diameter is 1.12 and 3/4 of a inch is the largest inside diameter. I am getting this information of of the Universal / DeVLieg website.
Hobart, inventor and original maker of the KitchenAid also made a number of industrial mixers, meat grinders, and a spud peeler that was almost as big as that K&T.
Hi Keith! Looks like a great, new machine. Also, seems to be well cared for. One point - that spindle lock is going to be a large pita, climbing up and down all day. Maybe you could engineer a solenoid to operate the lock electrically, and tie it into the spindle motor to automatically unlock if the motor gets juice. Could be a good modification... Thanks again, and keep up the good work!
I am impressed with the low runout on that spindle. I would definitely invest in a new set of collets. I would also shy away from the used collets unless I could inspect and test them on the machine.
I have a Bridgeport series 2 with the same quickchange style nut to hold nt40 tooling in.. Took some head scratching to use cat40 tooling, but it works great
I noticed as you tightened the 5/8 pin into the collet, you dramatically over-tightened it! Keep in mind, these collets have dual tapers, which means it's in effect a compound action. Over-tightening is the main cause of broken collets, as you already have two examples of this effect. K&T heat treated everything very well, including these collets, so keep this in mind when securing all collets in this machine.
Ya gotta remember what type of craftsman would use this machine. The best and most qualified tool and die makers, model makers, and mold makers. They would naturally take much better care of this type of machine.
Hey Keith greetings from Brisbane Australia. That is one solid piece of iron. As for the ER40 thats just repurchasing the machine to what is available in todays market.
The gauge is further from the bearings so there will be more runout even if they were perfect. That said adding an extra component, the collet and pin gauge, will also add something into the equation. So the spindle looks like a winner :)
When checking spindle run-out, why not run spindle at lowest speed or rotate it manually? Wouldn't that reduce the jitteriness of the dial indicator needle?
I was thinking the same thing…also, is a super-precision dial indicator meant to be working at several hundred RPM’s? The internals of that poor indicator had to be screaming in pain…
Turning it by hand seems best. On a massive machine like this, hand turning won’t be a problem, but on smaller machines, even Bridgeports, your hand pushes the quill off axis just enough to affect the reading a couple of tenths. So rotate by hand and then wait a few seconds. But for greatest accuracy in readings you really need the machine to rotate itself. Otherwise you’re not getting the true reading.
There was a comment that the collet looks to be similar to that from a Tree mill. The Tree mill collet is a Universal type Z double angle collet. I was thinking that there might be a Universal DA collet that's a match for the K&T 30 NST, you'd have to match both angles.
Based on whatI have seen of this machine (and the one on Engineer's Workshop) it is about as close to an NC machine as a manual machinist is likely to get. Also, it has some of the features of a jig borer, not usually seen in a home shop. Strongly recommend obtaining the most accurate tooling available now that you have explored the spindle runout.
Acquiring attachments to machines you don't have keeps them from being scrapped. If you don't end up needing it, there is someone else who will be happy you saved it from the scrapper.
Buying an attachment for a machine you don't have (but might have some day) is a cheaper way to temporarily treat Iron Deficiency Anemia than buying an entire machine you don't need (but might some day). IDA is a sinister disease that must be treated regularly or at least as soon as practical as symptoms appear. It looks like you've found a good bottle of medicine on this one.
You don't have a rag, you have a cleaning cloth. Run out measurements: Did you clean and de-bur the used collet? I wished you had hand rotated the spindle, assuming it could have been. Ron W4BIN
Very expensive new collets are still cheaper then collets that are not available. That's if they are of good quality that is. Interested to see more on this machine.
I made a similar collar for mine, so I can use QC30 tool holders. I have a full set of original 20 and 30 taper collets, but now have a selection of QC30 holders. (No I won’t be selling my collets!). I keep thinking I’d like to automate the spindle lock with a solenoid, but the rotary motion makes that tricky.
I've been using a K&T 2D rotary head mill for about 6 months on and off. I'm getting tired of cleaning the ways, are you putting together a strategy to cover the ways?
The question that's always on my mind is, prior to all precision machinery being in production how were the first machines made that started the production. They must have had some precision to make a high tolerance machine if that makes sense. I assume they must have been ground by hand in some manner
With good technique you can push the tolerance of a machine just a bit past what it can do. Keep iterating over progressively more precise machines and you finally get to the desired tolerance.
I found one of these machines recently in Warner Robins Georgia. It was bought from the air force base and has been sitting for about 4 years in a warehouse. The guy told me to make him an offer but said I wanted to find out more about it. It looks to be in good shape. What is a reasonable price on one of these?
It's the size and it very loosely corresponds to the biggest diameter of the cone in mm. For example for the 30 taper the biggest part of the cone has a diameter of 31.75mm.
Maximum respect to K&T, though one can see why Rego-fix later became so popular, they currently claim a three micron run out, but they were not available till 1972 but at a price too.
It's an indication of how much a rotating object will wobble with respect to its axis of rotation. If it was bent, say, or not mounted properly, you'd see lots of runout.
Joseph- the actual term is called total indicator run-out or TIR and indicates the amount of run out over the test range, a full revolution of the spindle typically. The method used by Keith is common but inaccurate as is mentioned by a couple of other people on this thread, however it is good enough for our usage.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
When we built these machine at K&T, the spindle bearings are very high precision- and expensive. I can see there is nothing wrong with that spindle. You have a winner.
@Current Batches no ball thrust bearings. There are three in the nose and one sealed in the rear of the quill.
@Current Batches there are 3 ball thrust bearings with spacers in the nose. In the tail there is a double sealed radial ball bearing-That one is not a high precision.
You need to check the "other" runout - since the head rides on a dovetail slide, notice that there are gibs on both sides instead of just one. This is because the head has to be precisely centered if the ways are ever rescraped. If the head is off side to side, milling a 3/4" hole with a 3/4" cutter would wallow the hole out a bit if the head were rotated. To do this, you have to zero the head in and out precisely. I zero mine on the vernier with the head travelling OUT toward the 4" offset (there is lash, you have to pick which direction) Depending on the majority of the milling you do, you may want to zero it the other way. I tend to enlarge radii more frequently so OUT works best for me. After that is zeroed as best you can, park the indicator on the side of your gauge pin and orbit the head 360. There will be some side-to-side runout that can be reduced by adjusting both gibs. This shifts the axis of the entire spindle assy a bit and you can get within your .0002". Mine's running .0003" now and is due for a gib adjustment.
Keith, I have to laugh - I've never heard of a machine like this one, and yet I can already think of three different jobs where a 2D would be the perfect solution! Thanks for keeping these marvelous machines healthy and active.
I have one of these machines. I've only ever seen one more. I think mine was brought to Britain in ww2. It has been used for many complicated jobs over the years, particularly pitch circle drilling. Great video!
I think a more accurate measurement of the runout would be obtained by turning the spindle by hand or running the machine at a much lower speed - because the measuring tip of the indicator can bounce of any irregularities and give a false (too large) reading. Thanks for the video - that's a beautiful beast you have there!
The gauge has resonant frequencies. If you happen to run the spindle at or near those frequencies the needle will swing beyond the actual runout. Likewise, if you run the spindle at a speed between those frequencies the needles swing will be less than the actual runout. Turn the spindle slowly, either by hand or at most a handful of rpm. That will give you an accurate indication of the spindle's runout. Your conclusions based on the 'measurements' you did on the video are misleading at best and are useless.
@@alanblair3193 Not only that it's not good for the indicators.
In that range clocking the collet becomes part of the process . A bit of a long process but one done thing could be spot on . To have a machine that is still in spec after this many year is a very good find you are very lucky .
I couldn't help but feel for that indicator. i was taught hey arent meant to wip around like that. None the less, awesome machine ! thanks for sharing as always :)
It brings back memories,ran this machine in the mid 60. Good machine for dies
That would certainly make your day. For a 1954 machine to have only 2 tenths run out is truly amazing. It has been well looked after. Thanks for the video.
Many K&T machines came out of the government storage depot (salt caverns) in Hutchinson, KS and many machines were new when placed there. A company that I worked for in the 60s bought 3 new short bed casing lathes and at that time there 100s of machines including K&T rotary head milling machines.
No wonder American machine tools were world famous. That old and out by 3/10,000? Great stuff. Thanks, Keith.
Looks like you had a good score. I would not have thought it would have been that it would be that close of runout. Thanks Keith for the video.
I love the idea of the two handed spanner wrench, I'm going to steal that idea while nobody's looking.
In Britain a "spanner wrench" would be repetitiously redundant. Brits call wrenches "spanners".
@@peterhobson3262 so what do you call a spanner wrench? Clearly not the same tool lol. I’m assuming you’d use the pin spanner or hook spanner terms
@@zanechristenson3436 I call a wrench a wrench but then I'm an American. I was saying that in Britain a wrench is called a spanner.
@@peterhobson3262 understood I mistook your comment and your name is pretty British lol
Hello Keith, I bought one of these machines about a year and a half ago. It came with K&T tooling. I got #20 and #30 taper AND ARE MARKED K&T. It came with a Jacobs chuck and small boring head. The collets for those two pieces are also marked K&T. FYI I have a Tree vertical head for a Brown and Sharpe Horizontal mill that takes Z collets. I have a Y and a ZZ collet. None of these work on the K&T mill. My mill was repainted sky blue, had a power feed added to the Y axis, and had a DRO. The only bad thing is the table has a bad gouge. I can send some photos if you would like. I haven't really used it yet, but am anxious to get to it. Thanks for your videos!
I briefly worked in a shop that had two of these. These were very handy machines. You could step it up and in with a ball mill to machine spherical radii making mold models for the paragraph.
Always fun to see a thing work well.
Congratulations Keith. That's a beautiful machine!! Looking forward to you working on some projects on it in the future!
Once the machine is warmed up you may find the runout to be close to new condition. Nice!
When placing any pin in an acorn style collet always nake sure the shank of the tool or pin protrudes from the bottom of the collet for maximum accuracy and rigidity!
This Old Tony just did a video on runout in collets. He found the biggest culprit was cheap collets. He was able to cleanup a few burrs and such and make them somewhat better.
Congratulations! It appears to be in great shape!
Quite a machine. Built in steps. Too cool!
Keith your collets look like a Z style double taper. They do come in different sizes such a Z, ZZ and so on. The length of a Z is a 1.50 and the outside diameter is 1.12 and 3/4 of a inch is the largest inside diameter. I am getting this information of of the Universal / DeVLieg website.
Great video Keith, keep'um coming..
I would have checked that ER40 collet. You may have been surprised. Great run out on the spindle. Thanks for sharing.
I am so glad you have temporarily found some relief for you iron deficiency.
That machine is beautiful, and may have been the inspiration for the KitchenAid mixer!
Hobart, inventor and original maker of the KitchenAid also made a number of industrial mixers, meat grinders, and a spud peeler that was almost as big as that K&T.
Hi Keith!
Looks like a great, new machine. Also, seems to be well cared for.
One point - that spindle lock is going to be a large pita, climbing up and down all day. Maybe you could engineer a solenoid to operate the lock electrically, and tie it into the spindle motor to automatically unlock if the motor gets juice. Could be a good modification...
Thanks again, and keep up the good work!
Look forward to seeing this one producing chips.
I love your programs, you have the best machines.
Well done Keith! Looking forward to the next video.
I am impressed with the low runout on that spindle. I would definitely invest in a new set of collets. I would also shy away from the used collets unless I could inspect and test them on the machine.
I have a Bridgeport series 2 with the same quickchange style nut to hold nt40 tooling in..
Took some head scratching to use cat40 tooling, but it works great
This is a real interesting machine, looks good too.
Thanks Keith. Love this machine. Look forward to the next one on it. Cheers. 👍
I noticed as you tightened the 5/8 pin into the collet, you dramatically over-tightened it! Keep in mind, these collets have dual tapers, which means it's in effect a compound action. Over-tightening is the main cause of broken collets, as you already have two examples of this effect. K&T heat treated everything very well, including these collets, so keep this in mind when securing all collets in this machine.
Ya gotta remember what type of craftsman would use this machine. The best and most qualified tool and die makers, model makers, and mold makers. They would naturally take much better care of this type of machine.
The small collets also limit the kind of tool some yahoo could stick in it, too.
Thanks for the video, love the old iron 👌
Very good news on the accuracy. I somehow think this machine was one man's baby for his whole career and kept it in very good nick.
Nice!! Amazing it still holds spec... 🙂
Hey Keith greetings from Brisbane Australia. That is one solid piece of iron. As for the ER40 thats just repurchasing the machine to what is available in todays market.
The gauge is further from the bearings so there will be more runout even if they were perfect. That said adding an extra component, the collet and pin gauge, will also add something into the equation. So the spindle looks like a winner :)
Thanks for sharing, did you also test the run out of the ER40 Adapter?
When checking spindle run-out, why not run spindle at lowest speed or rotate it manually? Wouldn't that reduce the jitteriness of the dial indicator needle?
My thought exactly.
You'd think that would be obvious but he does have a general tendency for errors to uphold. 🙃
I was thinking the same thing…also, is a super-precision dial indicator meant to be working at several hundred RPM’s? The internals of that poor indicator had to be screaming in pain…
Turning it by hand seems best. On a massive machine like this, hand turning won’t be a problem, but on smaller machines, even Bridgeports, your hand pushes the quill off axis just enough to affect the reading a couple of tenths. So rotate by hand and then wait a few seconds. But for greatest accuracy in readings you really need the machine to rotate itself. Otherwise you’re not getting the true reading.
I'm pretty sure at this rpm the inertia of the indicator needle will affect the results to a point where they are worthless.
Thank you for sharing. Enjoyed.👍
There was a comment that the collet looks to be similar to that from a Tree mill. The Tree mill collet is a Universal type Z double angle collet. I was thinking that there might be a Universal DA collet that's a match for the K&T 30 NST, you'd have to match both angles.
Amazing after all those years only 3 tenths. I wonder if todays machines in 80 years will be that good.
Very exciting Keith :)
Based on whatI have seen of this machine (and the one on Engineer's Workshop) it is about as close to an NC machine as a manual machinist is likely to get. Also, it has some of the features of a jig borer, not usually seen in a home shop. Strongly recommend obtaining the most accurate tooling available now that you have explored the spindle runout.
Congratulations on finding a “new” old stock machine 😎
awesome machine ..cant wait to see some chips
A.so lock the spindle, set the slide head to 0 clockwise and spin the head to see the runout in the rotary
Thanks for sharing
Not a criticism....why spin the spindle so fast while measuring runout?
Acquiring attachments to machines you don't have keeps them from being scrapped. If you don't end up needing it, there is someone else who will be happy you saved it from the scrapper.
Buying an attachment for a machine you don't have (but might have some day) is a cheaper way to temporarily treat Iron Deficiency Anemia than buying an entire machine you don't need (but might some day). IDA is a sinister disease that must be treated regularly or at least as soon as practical as symptoms appear. It looks like you've found a good bottle of medicine on this one.
He who dies with the most tools, wins. Even if you have no chance of winning, you have no choice but to play the game.
You don't have a rag, you have a cleaning cloth. Run out measurements: Did you clean and de-bur the used collet? I wished you had hand rotated the spindle, assuming it could have been. Ron W4BIN
Very expensive new collets are still cheaper then collets that are not available.
That's if they are of good quality that is.
Interested to see more on this machine.
Keith and This Old Tony are the same men in different bodies, lol COLLET VIDOES
What a machine -- would love to know how you got it in the shop!
Measure with the ER40 collet.
Hey Keith - Any update on the Monarch EE Lathe electronic upgrade?
New equipment! That's what we want!
Keith, I think you should buy it. Just buy it; it will be useful someday.
Chuck the broken collets in after deburing them to check the runout.
Very nice. If you come across a k &t number 5 I'm looking for one.
I'm curious to know what the runout is through the more modern ER40 collet adapter.
Have a chat with steve summers...He just made a collet using his new machine....would make a cool vid.
I made a similar collar for mine, so I can use QC30 tool holders. I have a full set of original 20 and 30 taper collets, but now have a selection of QC30 holders. (No I won’t be selling my collets!). I keep thinking I’d like to automate the spindle lock with a solenoid, but the rotary motion makes that tricky.
Good morning keith. Looking forward to chips. The spindle lock seems very small for a machine that size. Have a great day!
I was wondering if Ron had any parts for this.
Hiya Keith
I've been using a K&T 2D rotary head mill for about 6 months on and off. I'm getting tired of cleaning the ways, are you putting together a strategy to cover the ways?
Keith,
Shouldn’t you measure the inside of the collet as well, since that’s where the tool rides?
The question that's always on my mind is, prior to all precision machinery being in production how were the first machines made that started the production. They must have had some precision to make a high tolerance machine if that makes sense. I assume they must have been ground by hand in some manner
With good technique you can push the tolerance of a machine just a bit past what it can do. Keep iterating over progressively more precise machines and you finally get to the desired tolerance.
Are those collets something within your abilities and tools to make at a high level of accuracy?
I think the term is “Dead Nuts On”
nice machine, thank you
It does not appear to be bent or damaged but what about free play?😊
Do you have specs for 20 & 30 taper holders? I've looked and haven't been able to find them. I need to make another one for a wood shaper I have.
And it just gets better!
Art from Ohio
Are those "Z" collets like a Tree would use?
ER collets are actually very good.
How do you tram a mill like that?
Im thinking it was a home made. made from a different holder that they made on the lathe. that is why I'm thinking it was rough.
I found one of these machines recently in Warner Robins Georgia. It was bought from the air force base and has been sitting for about 4 years in a warehouse. The guy told me to make him an offer but said I wanted to find out more about it. It looks to be in good shape. What is a reasonable price on one of these?
Depends on the area and condition, I payed $400 for mine from a auction
The 30 taper collets look exactly like Tree mill collets if you are trying to find more😀
Spin it by hand.....made me cringe to see that indicator bouncing like crazy!
KEITH GREAT FINED, TELL ALL HELLO, GREAT VIDEO, CAN'T WAIT...SEE YOU WHEN...
I wonder if the horizontal boring Mill will ever be finished.
Can't you turn those collects? It's another video.
Something is not right old chap, It's Righty Tighty Lefty Loosey... :D :D
I have the delivery test record for my machine that includes 15 tests and the limits, I’ll upload it to your website.
the er40 is the best bet imho
😊😛😛❤👍👍👍👍
😀😀😀
What do the numbers mean in 20, 30, and 40 taper?
It's the size and it very loosely corresponds to the biggest diameter of the cone in mm. For example for the 30 taper the biggest part of the cone has a diameter of 31.75mm.
Maximum respect to K&T, though one can see why Rego-fix later became so popular, they currently claim a three micron run out, but they were not available till 1972 but at a price too.
Not being machinist I don't know what term runout means
It's an indication of how much a rotating object will wobble with respect to its axis of rotation. If it was bent, say, or not mounted properly, you'd see lots of runout.
Joseph- the actual term is called total indicator run-out or TIR and indicates the amount of run out over the test range, a full revolution of the spindle typically. The method used by Keith is common but inaccurate as is mentioned by a couple of other people on this thread, however it is good enough for our usage.
quick switch 300 would be a good retrofit