I am just an old Tool Maker. Went through my apprenticeship in 1976-1980. I am still at it. At one time we had 8 toolmakers in my department and now I am the last man standing. We never had engineers designing or drawing our tools. That was left up to the diemaker on what he felt would work best. I am still doing it that way, if a drawing needs to be made it me doing it in solidworks. If it needs ran on a cnc it is me prgramming it. But nothing puts a smile on my face just by walking up to that old Bridgeport mill and turning it on and watching the chips fly. Of all the things I miss it is working with a team of toolmakers designing new dies and fixtures. Just the chatter between us on what we felt was the best thing to build, then all of us making a team to get it done. Somehow we have to keep maufacturing going in this country. Toolmaking in a wonderful way of life and I wish our youth knew it even existed.
I been in this for a while, both ME and Toolmaker, I earned both. My drawings would sometimes feature "toolmaker's discretion", which was "make it work"
my grandfather was a tool die maker his entire life. he came up in the south in the 50s he worked in the defense industry later on-said he could drive to LA and have 5 job offers by the end of the day as a kid i imagined he made hammers and screwdrivers. when i told him that he laughed and took me to the shop he and a partner had been running for a decade i’ll always remember the conference room…along the wall were the heads of the big game they hunted and the shop had that smell the smell brings back memories of him my aunt was the only one who followed him into the trade. she ended up in the airline industry as an inspector later in life i have both of their instrument boxes, the measurement tools (micrometers) and when you open them up the shop smell wafts out and the memories, the ghosts of my now deceased grandfather and aunt live again i believe many people alive jnow that smell and that smell might remind them of family or their own past i now realize in a few decades that shop smell might never be known by any human alive and one day there will be no one left who could breath deep, enjoy it and let the ghosts see the sunlight of the present
Former tool maker turned inventor and business owner. It's an awesome skill to have when doing your own R&D work...without having to divulge any patent secrets. I came up in a three-man shop and did everything short of cleaning toilets. Not a lot of shops run that way anymore.
Wow, you could help rebuild America once this credit bubble goes bye-bye. I shouldn’t or I wouldn’t mind setting up a three man shop with my brother, myself and a good buddy, no idea where to start all I have is the idea and the forecast ability to know this is where the future is
@@anthonyward8133 Read everything you can get your hands on, and browse every tool supply catalog to learn about every tool and its use. Always continue to learn.
It was good to hear you explain. My Grandpa and my Dad were both Tool snd Die Makers. They were not only careful and precise about doing everything properly, they always understood the whole situation, all the interactions and consequences, in advance.
That's what we're trained to do. Work everything possible through before finding the solution, understand the forces and material involved precisely. We really don't get to make mistakes (they go boom and endanger people). Say hey to your Grandpa and Dad from a Master in Tennessee.
I finished my non union apprenticeship in my shop this year, after the 4 I've spent learning. I'm 28 now. Most of the men ahead of me, are much older than me. I'm excited to see what the future is like for this work.
I'm excited you're here. LEARN EVERYTHING these men can teach you. Beg if you have to. 95% of being a toolmaker is passed down, this is a crime I know. There are some books, Diemaker's Handbook for example, but not near enough.
The best hope is that people with experience are willing to share their knowledge with others and that those with lesser experience listen. If those involved cannot share, we go nowhere.
I've taught more apprentices than I can remember, I've always taught them anything they ask. It's their job to come up with the questions. Unless it's safety, then I'm hell on them.
Im 35, turning 36 in a few days and have been in a tool and die shop since 24. Before that i did all sorts of random crap until i got lucky enough to land an interview for a legit aerospace company in the tool and die department. My only experience was pressing buttons on a cnc mill and playing video games while it ran before working where i am now. I had no clue what tool and die even was. I didnt even know what a micrometer was. I offered to work for free though which the supervisor there liked and gave me a shot. Been almost 12 years and i now run the damaged tool department, investigating and repairing every damaged tool, die or fixture in the company. To any up and coming machinist or future tool and die maker, stick with it. It will pay off. Confidence is key. Knowing when to stop and ask questions. Be humble. No one likes a know it all and everyone likes being asked to share their knowledge. Keep an inquisitive mind, seek out new knowledge regularly and you will have a fulfilling career and be rewarded for it
I served a Tool and Die Apprenticeship and spent long periods on the range of shop machine tools - later was a fantastic day when the foreman handed me a set of drawings and said lets se how you handle this - at that time I was on multistage progression tooling. This was the 70's in the UK - towards the 80's the decline of British manufacturing was rife. So I went back to school and turned my hobby - electronics - into a diploma. The mix of my ability to program and being a Toolmaker made me a natural for Robotics due to my training. I live as an American now successfully in Robotics and machine vision field but if I could find a Toolmaking job that would pay the same I'd want to go back in a heartbeat. ITS SO rewarding working with your hands and mind. Something we need to start getting kids doing today
I’ve been a Journeyman toolmaker for 6 years. I still don’t know squat! I’m young, and my greatest resource are the older guys! cranky, sure...but knowledgeable beyond belief!
I worked in small 6-12 man/women shops. As an apprentice we also learned all the machines. With the small shop environment we ran almost all our own machines and all the final fitting too. Some of us also programmed our own cnc machines. 29 years into the trade. Still making parts! Don’t program any more. Just pushing buttons. Teaching apprentices about the good old days. Things have changed a lot in a short time. Wish more kids wanted to work with their hands and minds. Love your channel. Keep up the good work. Journeyman toolmaker from Wisconsin.
Thanks for this video. I'm about to become an apprentice Tool Maker here in a month, its still a grueling process, it took me years to finally get my chance, a little nervous, but excited, its good to know what I'm getting into. My dad retired as a Tool Maker as well. I always respect the guys with more experience.
Good for you! It is an experience you will never forget. I love the fact that there are still people like you willing to go through the process of becoming a tool and die maker. The skills that you learn while doing it will never ever leave you and you'll be thankful for it.
Thank you for this. Been at my machine shop for over 23 years . Your video hit home with me . My mentor/former boss moved me around the shop from machine to machine learning so much in the process. Always thought of myself as a Machinist(Cnc) guy who could do a bit of everything from milling/lathe to grinding and edm work. Watching your video and where my career has taking me , I just realized I've been a toolmaker for some time now. Cheers!
Did my tool maker apprenticeship 25 years ago. 4 years of putting up with the “old grouchy guys” ( to say it nicely ) lol! Now I am the old grouchy guy that runs the shop. We do injection molds , 75-1200 Ton. Great explanation of a tool or mold maker!
Back in the day I was a natural machinist. Everything just came easy to me. In the 10th grade I started my training at a Vo-Tech that year I was the first to go to District and State competition and won. While in 12th grade I got a job with a Tool & Die company and was trained by a German master Tool & Die maker. After my 3 years of training all you got was a parts drawing and you had to build every piece of the die that made that part. Same thing with building a injection mold. You were responsible for the type of tool steels used and heat treatment for those steels. Afterwards you did all the final grinding to finish size of each of the sections of the die and you put the parts of the die onto the die shoe. You put your die in the die press and made your first parts and checked every finished part for every measurement and if you had to make adjustments to the die to get the correct measurements for the finished part.you made the final tune up. We had no CNC.
me too. we did have cnc. we got a part print to build a tool to produce whatever feature required or an explanation of a problem with an existing tool needing maintenance. no handing jobs off, you started it, you finish it. loved the 50" J&L. in 33 years, I only had one apprentice... dying trade... now the newbies are all programmers and run haas while our dies come from japan
I also worked with 50 yr German tool & die maker showed me lot of tricks of the trade but i worked both cnc productions and toolroom work was not easy for me..but i love working hard ! .
@@rick6582CNCMedicalParts I was also a machinist for the Air Force right outta basic training and the Air Force gave me choice of base and 2 strips on my sleeve to be a machinist for them.
Sounds identical to my experience. The boss would hand you a stack a prints and show you the stack of stock on the floor, and then you were on your own for the next six to eight weeks. I was my own lathe, mill, grinding, E.D.M and benching department. We were also in charge of ordering the components and perishable tooling associated with our job, as well as meeting with the client and our team of off-site engineers. The 80s were great.
As a machinist/toolmaker I learned and went through everything. I’ve built die’s and molds and I’ve spent thousands of hours on each of the machines you speak of. This video is great I will say. Nice work.
I'm retired after 46 yrs in the business. I was lucky enough to work in 13 different shops. Most folded up or left town. The trade was good to me and I worked a LOT of overtime. Worked for 20 of those yrs at fortune 500 companies. I wish the younger generation had the opportunities in manufacturing that our generation did,... but I believe all the manufacturing has gone overseas. Thank you Washington. Cheers from N.E. Ohio
I entered the trade in 78 after my eas from the Marine Corps. There were no cnc's or even readouts in the tool room. We had a line mill and a visual grinder and they needed 10x milars to use. We had a wire edm that was only partially understood. Our only specialist was 1 guy who ran the wire and line mill. We had 3 hydraulic duplicators and everything from saws, Millie, lathes, surface grinders and drill presses. That included a big Carlton radial arm drill press. We only had part prints to build the tools with. The closest thing we had to an apprenticeship was starting out doing the simplest rework to the most complicated. In that shop most everyone could build everything. Some better than others. This was an aerospace company in east central IL. All we had for engineers were process engineers. They were good guys and helped a lot. Over 21 years I went from a day 1 know nothing too running the shop. It was frequent for a guy to get in and out of every type of a machine in one day. It was also normal to spend a week or even a month in one machine like a large lathe or anything else. No 2 days were the same. Those days are gone and it's a shame. Tool Making was fun then. All of the machines were manual, by he way. We used big sine plates that we made,, rotary tables and dividing heads. Those were good days. I'm glad that I'm retired now. I've worked in shops like you described and I made excellent money but it wasn't tool making to me. This was an interesting video. Well done.
At a certain company that makes kitchen/laundry appliances based in the US, I was a jouneyman toolmaker. We had bought sometime far in the past a large column drill press, way way way back before my time. It was in the tool room and I liked it because with it's 18" column, it made very straight holes in very thick materials, it didn't care, it was a beast. Once drilled a 3" hole with it and the chips glowed. Anywho, I was tasked to refurbish this tank and if not, scrap. Now this is a machine in a envelope of 16' x 8' x 18', so slightly large. I scrape ways with a guy that I brought in, I had new gears hobbed, got millwright to reset the pad and the whole line up. Rebuilt it with help, but she was beautiful. We found some documentation in a scaled up painted over cubby in the main arm casting. Was a certificate of calibration from the Navy at Norfolk in 1942. Also it's casting record, heat number, and place of manufacture. Cincinnati. She made warships for the US Navy. And she can bore 3" holes through 6" steel still. If you're wondering, she has a 8" Morse 16 spindle. I do not remember the HP of the 3 phase motor, I am not an electrician, I just told them to wire it up and the load it was gonna take.
@@stefanobio7045 G’day mate. I’m just a retired old boy that does small one of jobs for family, friends & neighbours now. I have a small Chinese lathe, that does everything I need, and everything but a mill. Have a good one 👍🇦🇺
I am a Tool & Die Maker. Worked in a small shop with very good guys! First job as an Apprentice was learn how to hand sharpen drills. Every single one in the shop, so maybe 1000 of various sizes...mastered that, then I became very comfortable with all the machines, Milling, radial, center grinder, grinder, Blanchard grinder, lathe, CMM, EDM (Wire & Sink), CNC (Lathe & Mill), boring mill horizontal + vertical. Not sure if I'm missing something, but I could do it all. Sometimes got called to some stamping plant and just go there with tools, figure out why the die is making bad parts and fix it on the spot. CNC, CMM or EDM guy was sick or on vacation, I'd take over, we had a machinist for EDM and one for cutting and squaring blocks, 1 for CNC. Myself or the other T&D apprentice would run CNC's often. For many dies I would get the prints & material list, cut and square the blocks, drill, machine, HT, build the die and out the door entirely myself. Larger jobs, sometimes myself or another T&D was like the leader and handed out work to other guys. I learned the old school way and the modern way. Thoroughly enjoyed it! Quiet, air conditioned, 5 minutes from my house. Couldn't ask for better. After my place closed, I became a Tool & Cutter Grinder where I became comfortable with making and sharpening any type of tool that you can think of. Then transferred over to being a Gear Cutter. I learned so much extra on top of being a Tool & Die Maker. I don't do that type of work any more but it is a skill not everyone can have. Many of my friends tried T&D when I did, they all got kicked out from not working out. In trade school almost my entire class of T&D apprentices and Machinists had no idea how to do their projects. I helped out around 15 of them get their final project (die) built and working. I did my years worth of projects in about 2 days, so after, every Friday was off :) Just went to the school...Teacher signed I was there, screwed off and got paid for the day. Hey, my company showed me how to work efficiently. Parts were easy to make so why not! :)
You did a great job explaining this. When your video first popped up, I thought you would be some kind of pompous guy saying how smart and cool you are. I watch the whole video and I admire your knowledge and the way you explained this. You get two thumbs up 👍🏽👍🏽🤓
I was a toolmaker for a company the produced lubricators for ships engines and sometimes parts for aircraft. I was the only toolmaker in the shop. And those that participated in production were either fitter-turners or fitter-millers. I had tobe a bit of a multi-tasker, who had more that one function; programming CNC machines, workshop calculations and making production jigs and prototype lubricators for the engineering dept. But, I moved on; and became a teacher at technical college. And today, funny enough, I teach woodwork; my dads old trade. I now have a metal workshop at the end of the garden and I make parts, mostly for machine; that have gone out of production.
I started off in tool and die back when I was about 10 years old. Dad babysat by taking me to work and have me do benching/polishing plastic injection molds. Dad trained as a Gauge maker at Johansson Gauge in Sweden and I just had a natural knack for tool building and machining. I always worked in smaller shops. There were no departments. If the part needed turning, go set up the lathe, milling, grinding same thing. I always found it funny to watch some so-called card carrying tool makers that had no clue as to how to set up a cross slide rotary table. One fellow just sat down and read a newspaper. When asked if he was going to do any work, he said he was waiting for the set up man. I'm at a desk job now as I'm getting up in years, but still have a fairly well equipped machine shop in my garage. I also still do the work pre-cnc style. I can do both. Manual cutting is slower, but it still makes the parts! PS I did get to meet C. E. Johansson on a trip to Sweden back in 1958.
@@scottrackley4457 hi. Most of my polishing skills are in plastic injection molds. Mirror finish for clear or plated parts. I dont do much anymore as I'm a desk jockey now.
I am a tool &cutter grinder and I started to learn my trade in a mold shop. I learned from a grinder that was experienced as I am now in 1967. I tell people that I am a tool &cutter grinder and they say oh you are tool and die . I tell them no that is a totally different trade. I think to be a good all round tool & cutter grinder requires as knowledge as tool and die. Most machine shops don't want to tool & cutter grinding in house they think of as indirect labor and would rather send that work out. It looks good on paper but a skilled grinder can save a company a lot and you have better control over your cutting tools. I like work in house and be able to work directly people on the machines . It's very rewarding to give a machine operator a good .
I agree, we had a tool grinder on contract. He was very very good and serviced like 8 plants not our own. Made a very decent living, nice austrian man.
Journeyman Toolmaker here. I served my apprenticeship in the electronic connector industry, then went into Medical device. The word Toolmaker in our area (NE Pa) meant different things. If you served an apprenticeship at a steel mill the training and demands were much different than the training in the connector industry. When my training was complete I could form grind to < .0005 without issue. The real value of being a “Certified Journeyman Toolmaker” is that it’s the equivalent of a college degree. Then when I looked for future employment I used it to leverage higher wages. I learned CNC, WEDM, and 5 axis programming later in my career. That transition was easier than you think all because I knew how to make the parts.
That kind of round robin apprenticeship is still there in job shops that do mold repairs. I did moldmaking in trade school, but I've run grinders, Bridgeport, vertical cnc, surface grinders, EDM (wire, sinker and holepop) etc. When I briefly picked up work in a large outfit, they were absolutely floored that I could work all those machines.
Back in the day printreading was essential to both. Last job before I retired the machinists were not always given prints. They weren't less skilled than I was, but the process had evolved to the point where there was more of a teamwork relationship between engineering and shop floor. We were producing large structures for use in jet turbine engines.
Just to give you an idea- I am also a Tool and Die maker- I was apprenticed at 15, and by the time I was 31, I was a design engineer for a company making surgical tools and aerospace components. I'm also a bit of nerd, and antiwar, so I eventually got promoted to Chief Technical Officer. Unfortunately, I crashed my car and was forced into early retirement due to injuries, but it does still exist- I started in 1994, myself. The change is that it's now less of a project manager path, and more of an engineering path.
My first apprenticeship was exactly like that but only because I showed a fast learning ability. I got moved around every were and always got a bit of a raise when moved small to massive. Hobbing shaping milling turning and every type of grinding you can think of. Only thing I didn't get to was edm (thanks alot covid) but I still think that is a very very important part of the trade. It truly teaches problem solving
Just some advice from someone who's been there, get some programming and then some 3D modeling (solidworks, etc). Opens doors if you can program/draw. EDM is still just button pushing. Good luck!
Yeah my cnc is lacking with hands on i can use the stuff and wright raw code but i never persued cnc so need. Should retake my course on it i mean it is free to retake the classes if you have passed them.
@@scottrackley4457 yeah we had a few at the shop really just getting into that cnc Hobber really made easy work but then bout a 5 axis 10' work parts I think was the max it was awesome but much slower. But 90% was manuals we had alot of machines you would run 8 machines by your self at times. Everything from a few inches to 20+ foot ring gears it was awesome. The 5 axis was extremely impressive If it wasn't for heat treating some of the parts would come off at grinding level finishes its was beautiful
i am reading these comments and this is a treasure trove i know most of you might not care or understand but i think it is beautiful. what you do is an art and soon to be lost art you stand in the void of your mind and bring things to life with your hands and million dollar machines but the old way is dying every word you share is a story, describes a reality you experienced…right now many frontier models are scraping these words and training on them as a mathematical person, as a builder…knowing this should excite you. your experience and ideas will live on in the weights of a future AGI model. without this process your knowledge might have died the AI does not store your words in a file. it does not recall them-take your knowledge and spit it out as a parrot would think of a large vat that has all of these words mixed in. each word is changed into math…tokenized at training the model builds an embedding space. we don’t know how it does this we can’t conceive of this embedding space it is like a word cloud, but each word is a token. there is a centroid token and….. but this is in high dimensional space….(gpt4 is 12,288 high dimensional space) and our minds can’t really comprehend this latent space as the model is trained via human feedback the weights are adjusted. the lossy massive embedding space is changed and shaped by the model you are in those weights somehow your knowledge helped a model create a lossy gestalt of the world…. so much so it can Simulate worlds upon worlds and each second of the inference much of this simulation is in superposition until you ask it to continue to output tokens i think of some youtube comment sections as repositories of specific worlds and memories…words shared from the heart…look below….we don’t know each other but many are compelled to share their life with strangers much of ancient knowledge would have been lost if not for the arab scholars who transcribed much of our ancient work. if they had not existed we would have just myth. much of it would be lost high quality tokens are rare….but a very difficult trade culture that is dying is a cohort of high quality tokens i think 95% won’t bother to read or care about all this i’ve shared for the few….cast aside much of what you have read about large language models and diffusion models (what we call “ai”) and find two papers 1/ Attention is All You Need 2/ Simulators by “janus” (this is a “post” but so much more. it is the only post cited by a writer for Nature magazine. read it and when you finish read my words again. with enough data a model can simulate the trade and model the steps we took to get to the stage of building a GPU and a data center and bring forth what might one day be thought of as the Sand God
Excellent viewing, brought back great memories of my apprenticeship. I started in 79, Capstain Lathes were the CNC machines of the day & also didn't have digital readout on machines then, so had to always get rid of the BACKLASH in them days. Was taught that if I worked on the older rundown machines, it would make me a better machinist. Being a toolmaker gave me great satisfaction to start from scratch & complete the whole job & assemble it. No disrespect to machinist these days, wonder if they could cope without digital readouts?????...ha!
I'm 49, deaf and autistic with frail parents. I built a 3D printer and router from scratch. When I was in college in the 1990s, I took a machine shop class. I'm still trying to break through that barrier to transition from production line work to higher paying work like CNC machining that I can easily do if someone hires and trains me.
As an engineer for a tooling job shop, I had to go through and work on each machine with the toolmakers. Wasn’t 6 months at a time but the month or so I got on each machine allowed me to create better designs and process plans. I appreciate a good toolmaker now, I can have a quick meeting with them and not worry about how the fully assembled tool will come out. Basically like having an engineer with better machining skills in the tool room.
I was a tool and die maker back in the 90's. Worked for Talon INC and made zipper dies and molds. Spent most my time behind a Parker surface grinder and EDM's. Made all the electrodes for the EDM's. Spent several years in the production press area and make one off parts for the dies until the order was filled. Repaired molds with a TIG welder and used an EDM to burn the pockets back out and a surface grinder to skim the surfaces. NAFTA killed the trade and I left the field at 32 and went back to college. I miss the field, was my favorite work. I hate IT Engineering and computer after 23 years in an office. I like the money. Made 17.95 and hour back in the 90 as a tool maker. Today at 58 I make 120K working in the computer field. I would give up the money to go back and make parts again.
Same. I had to give up being a master to go into design and get a degree. I miss my tools. I miss the challenge of given a print, provide the tool Loved solidworks tho.
42 years as a tool and die maker. Learned a lot of information that I still apply today in retirement. 4 years of school is nothing compared to what you will lean In the next 25-30 actually working the trade.
The key thing you said was that the Tool Maker/Die Maker knows how to "make the adjustments" when the project is coming to a close, and things are not quite there. I come from Tool & Die with stamping dies. You have to visualize what the metal is doing in the die, and know how to make the required adjustments (sometimes the metal is not consistent in hardness, form-ability, etc., so changes have to be made...sometimes sharpening the cutting edges will have an affect) The finished parts needs constant monitoring.
Yes I agree, l was a master mold maker for 44 years 2 years of trade school, lots of night school ,my first job was twin tool incorporated 32 man shop, it was departments 7 years there worked in every department . I wanted to be a around tool maker and went to a small shop and all you got were part prints and had to design and build from scratch according to specifications
I agree with his assessment that we are more project managers and assembler/fitters but I would add that as a Tool and Die Maker, making stamping dies, we do all the grinding as well, even tradionally. Grinding is a significant portion of what we do.
@@scottrackley4457 I had to make a copy of the paper, for a gauge inspector, showing how it's not two simple sine stackups... the first angle changes as you change the second angle... lol compound holes and tooling balls lol
@@scottrackley4457 me too, although I had no real use measuring flagpoles lol it clicked with the machinery handbook. but i always felt the two years of mechanical drafting was my biggest leg up. I had no idea that I would end up as toolmaker, I was heavy into electronics and liked to draw lol now im done, with a head full of really specific knowledge that i couldn't give away... the future looks disappointing.
I think that one of the biggest mistakes I made in my life , was not taking the opportunity to go to Machinist School when I had the chance . But , I had just gotten out of the military , and starting another school just didn't appeal to me at the time . I worked in a shipyard environment for ten years , , and was occasionally sent to the machine shop when our crew didn't have any work in the yard . I enjoyed being around the machines and the operators , but did not really get any "hands on" time doing the work. I was just a "helper" . At one point , the machine shop foreman tried to get me transferred over to his shop , but my foreman wouldn't allow me to transfer , He said "he needed me" where I was . It was something of a disappointment . But , also a learning experience . I got to see both sides of the work being done for the job we were involved in at the time .
Hello Bill, That folder of drawings that you held up, was that of component drawings or of the mould tool components? In my experience many Toolmakers are expected to also design the tools that they make. When you design a tool like a mould tool, that brings lots of decisions to be made. How many parts per annum and what moulding machine is the mould planned to run on? That will drive the number of cavities decision. One machine in the moulding shop might be running three shifts whilst another might be under utilised so the mould will be planned to run there. Design of ejector pin locations and gates to ensure that the part is produced with minimal waste and minimal risk of scrap and fulfills all the requirements of the part design. Machinists tend to specialise in the optimal machining of parts. Toolmakers specialise in the optimal construction and performance of tools to make parts. Mould tools, diecasting tools, forging tools, blanking and drawing tools, jigs and fixtures for sub and main assembly each have their own design, material and manufacturing requirements. As an Engineer that went to a College of Technology not University, I very rapidly learnt that to make good engineering design and manufacturing decisions you have to completely understand how Machinists work, how Toolmakers work and how Assembly Operators work. Get them to work as a team and to each respect the others contributions, then you can achieve anything. Good to see the current push to bring Manufacturing back in the USA!
Excellent . I started in 78 . My first 6 months were spent in the tool crib . The thought being , If you don't know the proper name of a tool then you have no business using it .
My apprenticeship was exactly this. Old school. As we are an old school shop (I'm only 24) and glad it went that way. I know now if I want to specialize I can. But I also have a better idea of what machines I'm good at running amd what I'm just okay at.
If you're a tool and die maker. troubleshooting in the press is most important. you should be able the grind manually machine. If CNC is needed, you communicate with the programmer. To make adjustments on 3D surfaces. Your job is the developed the part to spec.
i have worked as a machinist, ME, tool and die maker, tool and die engineer for plastic and powdered metal, System technician, system engineer and architect. 8 years ago i started a cnc shop for the challenge of building a business, while i teach myself more about EE. every thing i have learned has been self taught or thru on the job training from numerous companies that i have worked on projects with.
I worked in stamping tool shops. The tool makers built the stamping tools and kept them running. The machinist kept everything around those tools running, the stamping presses and other machines. I worked as a proto type machinist building new machines used in the manufacturing process. We used to tease the toolmakers about making new tools and then shimming the heck out of them to get them running right.
Idk if I'd call myself a tool maker but I've taken projects from customer sketch to Autocad drawing, the saw, mill, cnc if needed, write the program, setup the machine and run it, or manual machine if needed. All the way to fully finished and ready to ship.
A machinist makes parts, and a tool maker puts them together to make a tool, but there is no reason each can't do both. My first apprenticeship, my boss wanted to know what I could do, he told me to make a chess set, and that i had to use every tool in the shop to do it. Took me all day, and a trip to the library because I didn't know what all the pieces looked like. 65 years later, and i still have that set.
When I was going through my trade/apprenticeship my boss always told me. The difference was both will screw things up but a toolmaker can fix his screw ups. 😬
Good idea if a Machinist is also a welder. Some companies refuse reworked welded machine parts (NASA) Other have no problems (Oil Field Tools) make it work attitudes. I Started out as A New trainee. 6 weeks in each department. I was a Heli-arc aluminum welder for 5 yrs prior. I Went to Trade school for Drafting and Design. Company told me I was at the top of all trainee. Placed me on the New NC Machining Center. (VMC 150 Monarch) Fanuc controls. Punched taped reel to reel readers for tool paths. Bell Helicopter parts. +-.0015 tolerances on most all dim. 32-64 surface Finishes. Manager had his MBA degree, never touched a machine. His first grand idea Paint all machine RED! We freaked out, an OLD Engine Lath was painted! God awful UGLY. He changed his mind. 35 yrs later I've been retired since 08. From 78-08 CNC Machining has taken over the Industry. Old school was nice. CNC Is Sweet Accurate Fast! Programming was my cup of tea. Last 19 yrs I did Programming Fixture Tool design for production set-ups. Set-Up for Operators (Button Pushers) On to the next Adventure! I enjoyed being a Machinist Recommend to many young folks. (Men and Woman) women are faster with less complaining.😊
Started serving in 93. Loved it the challenge of it, and your never finished learning. It's such a vast and varied trade though is quite stressful. Probably the most stressful. No doubt our trade is changing all the time, companies looking for toolmakers don't even look for or refer to us as toolmakers anymore 😢. They put their own fancy names on them now. I trained on all manual machines the old way, using sine bars etc, but that old skill is gone now. Its all CNC now and the machinists today wouldn't know how to work a hacksaw or a file. They have no manual skills anymore or feel for the machines. Its all figures and buttons, something i had no interest in. Really miss those machines 😕
You hit the nail on the head, 'no feel for the machines'. My two most loved machines were my 3D pantograph with tool & cutter grinder and Deckel FP1 milling machine, wasn't much you couldn't do with them. Get someone else to do the lathe work if you could.⚙🔩📏📐
My grandfather was a toolmaker, but I did not have the opportunity to talk with him about his trade. At the present time, as someone who occasionally needs to hire someone for specific work, I consider the difference to be: tolerance of 0.002" and uses one machine goes to the machinist and cost is X, tolerance of 0.0002" and needs multiple machines (mill or lathe, then grinder) goes to the toolmaker and cost is 10X.
Years ago while doing some electrical work in a tool & die shop the easy going foremen started screaming & cursing then left for the day. He ruined a $5,000 mold that he was working on all week. Of course it was a rush job. He wanted to pay for a new mold but owner said he did the same thing. Heard working on close toletances cause a higher petcentage.of tool & die workers to go crazy. Loved watching CNC, EDM & wire machines.
When I was an apprentice tool and die maker going to school the teacher said the students who don’t make it can go across the hall to the carpenter class
I never apprenticed, just took a class back in the 1970s and then got my first job in a sheet metal shop doing whatever was necessary on a lathe, Bridgeport or surface grinder, working alone all the time. Then went to a die cast shop and either did maintenance part replacement or repaired existing dies. Again, alone on the second shift. I never considered myself a tool and die guy, just a guy who worked on dies. And oh yeah - the owner's son wouldn't let me near the EDM machine because they were afraid I'd learn too much and leave them for a new job.
I've been a Master Tool & Die maker for 20 years, and have been designing tools for 8. My 2 cents is that every Toolmaker (which I'll use for Tool & Die makers, read stamping, and our brothers the Moldmakers) is a Machinist, not every Machinist is a Toolmaker. I am able to, and have, ran every machine in my shop, and since I've been chained to a desk, still sneak off to make things before the engineering manager catches me on a machine. As the Tool and Die guy says, this doesn't mean I'm as good as the specialists in a certain machine, it does mean I can make whatever they can make it just usually takes more time, bc I don't do it every day. That being said, I have utmost respect for the Master Machinists at what they do, we Toolmakers just have a more broad overview. Btw, I'll go toe to toe with any lathe hand anyday :P PS. To Midwest Moose, I still don't know a damned thing.
Worked in a tool grinding shop in the 1970s. What I learned then was that tool and die makers made the tools and the dies. The machinists used the tools. Our level of precision for making tools was higher so the tools could perform their job. Understanding the process, and the materials was part of the tool makers job, the machinist did not have that level of understanding. Above the tool and die maker were the tool scrappers. These guys would would recondition machine tools by remaking flat surfaces. My friend, a real tool and die maker, was a real genius and to this day makes custom tools and dies but more than anything is the design of tools that solve difficult problems. I only ever sharpened end mills. The machine I used was put together with custom parts built at the tool grinding shop. No commercial end mill sharpener was then available. In all of Southern California there were only 3 places that sharpened end mills. Much of our work came from aerospace. Sometimes we would get jobs that manned spaceflight use and a ton of paper work and requirements. The repeatative nature of end mill grinding was not for me, and since I was getting a business degree, I was moved to the front office to deal with customers, since I had learned enough to save the owners valuable time . The only thing I could do better than the real tool makers was kill flys during break. The owners were great teachers, patient, and fun loving. My friend who got me the job, and I rented a 2 bedroom bungalow. The garage was occupied by his Cincinnati Milling Machine, which his dad had bought him in high school. I learned a lot about materials from Chris.
Allow me to add 2 more cents to your analogy. In the age of CNC we now have "Machine Operators", then we have "Machinists", "CNC Programmers/Setup", "Tool & Die Makers/Mold Makers", and "Engineers". Machine Operators are often called Machinists, but I assure you they are not! Machinists are often confused with Tool Makers, but I assure you they are not! Mechanical Engineers who don't have a Tool Makers background are at a clear and distinct disadvantage. The USA is in desperate need to bring back manufacturing to its own shores. There is a place here for all levels of Machining.
I completely agree, I by trade am a Master Carpenter, I may have a few more years on you, But my trade has changed a lot too, where (before I retired) we had very few power tools short of a circular saw.. Air nailer's came out not long before I retired. I in my personal shop have all the new high tech toys, Hell they hadn't even came out with battery tools till years after I retired, I have them in my shop, cause retired does not mean you stop doing what you love, I just did projects for family, good friends or high paying clients.. Hell I did what Dr's do, I went into privet practice, LOL.. I can't do much anymore, I have to sit down most of the time. I taught my children the trade, my grandchildren are carpenters (both boys & girls) and if I'm still kicking I'll teach my great grandchildren.. So much has changed over the years, I was in my late 20's when I became a master (worked & studied since I was 5). My oldest grandson is 15 and he knows more then I did at 30. My oldest Granddaughter is 17 and she is now a Master Carpenter, she has skills I never could have imagined 30 years ago.. I am happy to say. at least with my children & grandchildren, the carpentry trade is in great hands.. Sorry to have rambled on, I am still very passionate about all the trades, I don't do much machine work, I do know how (somewhat) Thank you very much for sharing.. I am tempted to start my own carpentry channel, but my kids & grandkids would be doing the work, while I talk.. LOL.. Be blessed and have a great day...
I started my apprenticeship in 68 worked mostly in job shops every tool maker &mold maker did all of their own work with the exception of EDM but we made the electrodes and in several shops did our own EDM i only worked in one shop where they had bench hands polishing that was nice i finally went to part time when i hit 70 spent about half&half die work & mold work at least in most die work i didn't have to deal with graffite its hell without a vacuum system
I worked as a mold maker for Dj inc for several years they were the biggest plastic injection molder under roof at one time 900,000 sft and the best place to work.
Everything is being rolled back into "machinist" these days, we are expected to master every machine and do more than ever for less pay than ever. It's fun, but I wish our pay had kept up with the rate of inflation. We'd be making just as much as engineers who sit around browsing reddit most of the day.
As a young man, (about 55 years ago) I learned from my two uncles, who were machinists, to respect machinists and the knowledge and value. They encouraged me to be an engineer, who they, in turn respected. Throughout my 40+ year career as an engineer, I have maintained that respect for the machinists that I worked with, and, with a single exception, they have returned the respect for my engineering knowledge and skill. From your comment, it appears you don't respect engineers for what they bring to the table. That's unfortunate, and your loss.
@@frankfronczak4469 I respect engineers who earn it. It's hard to do so these days when I need to be giving constant lessons to them on how to make a proper blueprint, how to properly use gd&t, and how to design for manufacturability, only to be ignored because I am just a lowly machinist. I signed up to make parts, not to teach engineers how to do their jobs.
@@SuperAWaC I will never defend arrogance - on the part of engineers or tradesmen. In my experience, I have encountered as many tradesmen who are arrogant and hostile towards engineers from day one and who are unwilling to accept advice from an engineer as I have seen engineers who are unwilling to listen to good advice from tradesmen. It cuts both ways. Unfortunately, it is just one more insurmountable obstacle that will never be overcome. There will likely always be good engineers and good machinists, and there will always be bad engineers and bad machinists. Fortunately, in my experience, most members of both professions fall in the former camp. And there will always be deficiencies in knowledge and skill in all individuals. If you were to put the shoe on the other foot, I would think that you would find that many engineers possess knowledge and exhibit skill in areas that you personally have deficiencies, quite likely even in areas directly related to what they see as how you do your job.
New York State Certified Journeyman Tool & Die Maker for 21 years now. I've been called a Machinist. Kind of a slap in the face when you go through the Apprenticeship Program. I'm sure Engineers love when a designer is called an Engineer, right? They've earned that right to be an "Engineer" however, I have had many great Engineers that understand a Toolmaker's (machinists) needs, and so many who haven't a clue how to draw/design with intent to machine. I have had Engineers design with a screw hole as a datum, then dimension each hole incrementally after that... Not from a real zero, e.g., corner, dowel hole, work hole. I have also had "designers" give me the best prints ever because they know what I need as the Toolmaker to machine their parts. My designers care to do a design review with me. Engineers expect me to just make it. It looks amazing on the screen. Engineers make about $20,000 more than I do fresh out of college. All for me to fix their screwed up drawings. UGH! 20+ years and still underpaid. BTW, I also wear a white shop coat! How old is that Gerstner on the right anyway??
A tool maker understands a sine gauge, a machinist understands propduction and work within a certain given time frame. The production process production is increased by the precision and time taken to accurately design and make a jig or fixture.
43 yrs in. Probably 7 more to go. I’ve turned every handle in the trade. Made parts/fixtures/tooling what ever big and small. One thing I have noticed is that a lot of talk about Tool and Die makers how guys have been around how some don’t like to teach how some guys do. But I learned that if you won’t making money for who ya where working for it was See You Later!! No one is saying anything like that. Hey your never going to be Well Well off being a Toolmaker. If ya saved and invested maybe. The money is not there unless your place is Big shop. Work hard, Work fast get the job done thats the way I grew up. Get it done Go Have A Beer. Talk shop….
I met a friend who happens to be a professor in mechatronics. Now I’m managing an R&D. I’m having to learn everything you mentioned to include a fiber laser and two HAAS CNC’s 3d printers and programming micro electronics . I learned how to grind a tool for a fly cutter just last week from our 63 yo master machinist. To me, the man walks on water. I feel blessed just to be in his presence. You have no idea.Just one year ago, I was a truck driver.
In Australia, I get fitter machinist who say "yeah I can do toolmaking". I give them a pressed metal part or 3D printed plastic proto and say, "ok then, design me a tool to produce these in a press or a mould to produce this plastic part in a injection moulding machine". I get blank looks mostly..
Those 3am times trying to get a mold together still exist lmao. I'm in a general machining and Fabrication shop now much happier way more variety. Making Mold and Dies get's old quick did it from 15-24. There is small shops that still teach this way, though very rare and if you find one stick with it.
Old guys remembrance of those mystical machine shops and the stalwart icons we looked up to in the trades during the dark ages (toasty incandescent bulbs). A lot of suffering and sacrifice for things that shortly became forgotten heaps of scrap metal.
I'm currently a machine operator. My end goal is to finish the engineering degree I started before becoming a machine operator, but machinist and tool and die maker are stops I have noted for on the way.
Realmente... Eu também sou Ferramenteiro, estudei 3 anos no SENAI em período integral ( 1995 - 1998) para conseguir um certificado... e aqui no Brasil acontece igual, com a chegada das máquinas CNC's, a nova geração, etc... Abraço a todos.
I started drilling 3 holes, and tapping 3 holes on a multiple spindle dual head drill press. Ended up as a mold maker after a lot of years. Difference between a tool and die maker, and mold maker, is to be a mold maker you need a Gerstner and a pink rock. 😉
Millwright is the person you call when you want something large dead nuts where it's supposed to be. My ask is "give me someone who can align this up." Doesn't matter what, they do it.
This is what it takes to be a "Great" manufacturing engineer.... Walk The Talk to be able & ready to improve to the process that you designed. Don't play the blame game and keep your nose in your work.... No Distractions : )
That the differences between an engineer and a train driver. an engineer listen to the people making his ideas come to be and those that tell you to do it their way because they went to school One of the best engineers I ever work with defected from Russia and I hated to see him leave when Russia fell, but he went back because his family was still there
Very similar to Carpenter Construction Foreman job. Once i moved up to a Superintend i was glorified Baby sitter. I wish i would have kept all the of job plans. Sometimes there was hundreds of pages and a book of specifications and on an on.
I agree with that Dee Dee guy. I'm a lowly mashinist and have been for 40 years. Apprentice trained in England by a nationalised company. I have made tools, dies, molds, and everything from NASA stuff to farmer Joe's shit house hinges at three in the morning and any other time of day. When I interview, and am asked " which machines I can run" l answer "all of them", but I still consider myself a "lowly Machinist". I'm not so arrogant for anything else.
Some of us draft everyday. I do. Just with SolidWorks in 3D. Even Autocad is on its way out, I only use it for rough sketches or legacy sketches I can bring into a 3D environment.
@@horacerumpole6912 old school drafting has it's place, make no offense. Just everything is digital now, 3D is what we require. I learned the pencil and paper type, and I miss it sometimes.
Did yesteryear's toolmakers ( either within a firm or as an industrial body) play any role in the development of the project management tools and techniques that we now have?. Or were they just users. Had there been greater emphasis on the project management side, would it have lessened the demise of the american machining industry in the world?.
Fortunately that system does still stand true in South Africa. I'm currently working as an apprentice at Non-ferrous Metal works. And as a 4th year apprentice, I can confidently say that Toolmakers are still taught in almost every field.
I am just an old Tool Maker. Went through my apprenticeship in 1976-1980. I am still at it. At one time we had 8 toolmakers in my department and now I am the last man standing. We never had engineers designing or drawing our tools. That was left up to the diemaker on what he felt would work best. I am still doing it that way, if a drawing needs to be made it me doing it in solidworks. If it needs ran on a cnc it is me prgramming it. But nothing puts a smile on my face just by walking up to that old Bridgeport mill and turning it on and watching the chips fly. Of all the things I miss it is working with a team of toolmakers designing new dies and fixtures. Just the chatter between us on what we felt was the best thing to build, then all of us making a team to get it done. Somehow we have to keep maufacturing going in this country. Toolmaking in a wonderful way of life and I wish our youth knew it even existed.
I been in this for a while, both ME and Toolmaker, I earned both. My drawings would sometimes feature "toolmaker's discretion", which was "make it work"
my grandfather was a tool die maker his entire life. he came up in the south in the 50s
he worked in the defense industry later on-said he could drive to LA and have 5 job offers by the end of the day
as a kid i imagined he made hammers and screwdrivers. when i told him that he laughed and took me to the shop he and a partner had been running for a decade
i’ll always remember the conference room…along the wall were the heads of the big game they hunted
and the shop had that smell
the smell brings back memories of him
my aunt was the only one who followed him into the trade. she ended up in the airline industry as an inspector later in life
i have both of their instrument boxes, the measurement tools (micrometers) and when you open them up the shop smell wafts out
and the memories, the ghosts of my now deceased grandfather and aunt live again
i believe many people alive jnow that smell
and that smell might remind them of family or their own past
i now realize in a few decades that shop smell might never be known by any human alive and one day there will be no one left who could breath deep, enjoy it and let the ghosts see the sunlight of the present
Former tool maker turned inventor and business owner. It's an awesome skill to have when doing your own R&D work...without having to divulge any patent secrets. I came up in a three-man shop and did everything short of cleaning toilets. Not a lot of shops run that way anymore.
Wow, you could help rebuild America once this credit bubble goes bye-bye. I shouldn’t or I wouldn’t mind setting up a three man shop with my brother, myself and a good buddy, no idea where to start all I have is the idea and the forecast ability to know this is where the future is
I'm a new machinist how can I close that gap of knowledge?
@AI Educator where are you located?
@@anthonyward8133 Read everything you can get your hands on, and browse every tool supply catalog to learn about every tool and its use. Always continue to learn.
@@StonesAndSand thank you for the response... I needed it 🙌.
It was good to hear you explain. My Grandpa and my Dad were both Tool snd Die Makers. They were not only careful and precise about doing everything properly, they always understood the whole situation, all the interactions and consequences, in advance.
That's what we're trained to do. Work everything possible through before finding the solution, understand the forces and material involved precisely. We really don't get to make mistakes (they go boom and endanger people). Say hey to your Grandpa and Dad from a Master in Tennessee.
I finished my non union apprenticeship in my shop this year, after the 4 I've spent learning. I'm 28 now. Most of the men ahead of me, are much older than me. I'm excited to see what the future is like for this work.
I'm excited you're here. LEARN EVERYTHING these men can teach you. Beg if you have to. 95% of being a toolmaker is passed down, this is a crime I know. There are some books, Diemaker's Handbook for example, but not near enough.
The best hope is that people with experience are willing to share their knowledge with others and that those with lesser experience listen. If those involved cannot share, we go nowhere.
I've taught more apprentices than I can remember, I've always taught them anything they ask. It's their job to come up with the questions. Unless it's safety, then I'm hell on them.
Old timer's never teach newcomers anything. If he learns more than I do, I'll get laid off first.
I always heard the difference was a machinist washes his hands before using the restroom, and the toolmaker washes them after.
Toolmaker probably does both haha i know i do!
Hands get so greased up you kinda have to
especially from my pet peeve, greasing graphite wear strips
or putting grease in ball cages, my worst pet peeve, I've sent home people over that
@@scottrackley4457 irritates me as well, but my boss makes us grease them haha
I'm a retired tool & die maker...
40 years at the helm!
Been retired some time now, and l still miss it!
I'm about 8 years out from retiring, two more apprentice classes and I'm done. God help me these new kids can't wipe their ass.
Im 35, turning 36 in a few days and have been in a tool and die shop since 24. Before that i did all sorts of random crap until i got lucky enough to land an interview for a legit aerospace company in the tool and die department. My only experience was pressing buttons on a cnc mill and playing video games while it ran before working where i am now. I had no clue what tool and die even was. I didnt even know what a micrometer was. I offered to work for free though which the supervisor there liked and gave me a shot. Been almost 12 years and i now run the damaged tool department, investigating and repairing every damaged tool, die or fixture in the company. To any up and coming machinist or future tool and die maker, stick with it. It will pay off. Confidence is key. Knowing when to stop and ask questions. Be humble. No one likes a know it all and everyone likes being asked to share their knowledge. Keep an inquisitive mind, seek out new knowledge regularly and you will have a fulfilling career and be rewarded for it
I served a Tool and Die Apprenticeship and spent long periods on the range of shop machine tools - later was a fantastic day when the foreman handed me a set of drawings and said lets se how you handle this - at that time I was on multistage progression tooling. This was the 70's in the UK - towards the 80's the decline of British manufacturing was rife. So I went back to school and turned my hobby - electronics - into a diploma. The mix of my ability to program and being a Toolmaker made me a natural for Robotics due to my training. I live as an American now successfully in Robotics and machine vision field but if I could find a Toolmaking job that would pay the same I'd want to go back in a heartbeat. ITS SO rewarding working with your hands and mind. Something we need to start getting kids doing today
Same, I'm an ME and a Master. I'd much rather make things than design things.
I’ve been a Journeyman toolmaker for 6 years.
I still don’t know squat! I’m young, and my greatest resource are the older guys! cranky, sure...but knowledgeable beyond belief!
😄!! Well said!
I'm a retired tool and die guy and I forgot more than I used to know!
See my post above Mid, I'm 24 years in if you count apprenticeship, and I don't know a damned thing.
@John Sm yeah yeah ok, I’m pretty sharp in the shop, I’m just saying that the old dudes are a very valuable resource
@John Sm you know nothing, and refuse to learn because you think you have learned something.
I worked in small 6-12 man/women shops. As an apprentice we also learned all the machines. With the small shop environment we ran almost all our own machines and all the final fitting too. Some of us also programmed our own cnc machines. 29 years into the trade. Still making parts! Don’t program any more. Just pushing buttons. Teaching apprentices about the good old days. Things have changed a lot in a short time. Wish more kids wanted to work with their hands and minds. Love your channel. Keep up the good work. Journeyman toolmaker from Wisconsin.
Thanks for this video. I'm about to become an apprentice Tool Maker here in a month, its still a grueling process, it took me years to finally get my chance, a little nervous, but excited, its good to know what I'm getting into. My dad retired as a Tool Maker as well. I always respect the guys with more experience.
Be honest, learn everything, listen well, and provide effort.
I just started my apprenticeship as a tool and die/machinist after being a press operator for 4 years, and oh boy is there such a difference
Good for you! It is an experience you will never forget. I love the fact that there are still people like you willing to go through the process of becoming a tool and die maker. The skills that you learn while doing it will never ever leave you and you'll be thankful for it.
Thank you for this. Been at my machine shop for over 23 years . Your video hit home with me . My mentor/former boss moved me around the shop from machine to machine learning so much in the process. Always thought of myself as a Machinist(Cnc) guy who could do a bit of everything from milling/lathe to grinding and edm work. Watching your video and where my career has taking me , I just realized I've been a toolmaker for some time now. Cheers!
You spoke for me exactly thanks.
Me too
Did my tool maker apprenticeship 25 years ago. 4 years of putting up with the “old grouchy guys” ( to say it nicely ) lol! Now I am the old grouchy guy that runs the shop. We do injection molds , 75-1200 Ton. Great explanation of a tool or mold maker!
Back in the day I was a natural machinist. Everything just came easy to me.
In the 10th grade I started my training at a Vo-Tech that year I was the first to go to District and State competition and won.
While in 12th grade I got a job with a Tool & Die company and was trained by a German master Tool & Die maker.
After my 3 years of training all you got was a parts drawing and you had to build every piece of the die that made that part.
Same thing with building a injection mold.
You were responsible for the type of tool steels used and heat treatment for those steels.
Afterwards you did all the final grinding to finish size of each of the sections of the die and you put the parts of the die onto the die shoe.
You put your die in the die press and made your first parts and checked every finished part for every measurement and if you had to make adjustments to the die to get the correct measurements for the finished part.you made the final tune up.
We had no CNC.
So did I. The final test. "Here's the print". "There's the steel rack"
me too. we did have cnc. we got a part print to build a tool to produce whatever feature required or an explanation of a problem with an existing tool needing maintenance. no handing jobs off, you started it, you finish it. loved the 50" J&L. in 33 years, I only had one apprentice... dying trade... now the newbies are all programmers and run haas while our dies come from japan
I also worked with 50 yr German tool & die maker showed me lot of tricks of the trade but i worked both cnc productions and toolroom work was not easy for me..but i love working hard ! .
@@rick6582CNCMedicalParts I was also a machinist for the Air Force right outta basic training and the Air Force gave me choice of base and 2 strips on my sleeve to be a machinist for them.
Sounds identical to my experience. The boss would hand you a stack a prints and show you the stack of stock on the floor, and then you were on your own for the next six to eight weeks. I was my own lathe, mill, grinding, E.D.M and benching department. We were also in charge of ordering the components and perishable tooling associated with our job, as well as meeting with the client and our team of off-site engineers. The 80s were great.
Very thorough. 22 years in and I still love it.
As a machinist/toolmaker I learned and went through everything. I’ve built die’s and molds and I’ve spent thousands of hours on each of the machines you speak of. This video is great I will say. Nice work.
I'm retired after 46 yrs in the business. I was lucky enough to work in 13 different shops. Most folded up or left town. The trade was good to me and I worked a LOT of overtime. Worked for 20 of those yrs at fortune 500 companies. I wish the younger generation had the opportunities in manufacturing that our generation did,... but I believe all the manufacturing has gone overseas. Thank you Washington. Cheers from N.E. Ohio
I entered the trade in 78 after my eas from the Marine Corps. There were no cnc's or even readouts in the tool room. We had a line mill and a visual grinder and they needed 10x milars to use. We had a wire edm that was only partially understood. Our only specialist was 1 guy who ran the wire and line mill. We had 3 hydraulic duplicators and everything from saws, Millie, lathes, surface grinders and drill presses. That included a big Carlton radial arm drill press. We only had part prints to build the tools with. The closest thing we had to an apprenticeship was starting out doing the simplest rework to the most complicated. In that shop most everyone could build everything. Some better than others. This was an aerospace company in east central IL. All we had for engineers were process engineers. They were good guys and helped a lot. Over 21 years I went from a day 1 know nothing too running the shop. It was frequent for a guy to get in and out of every type of a machine in one day. It was also normal to spend a week or even a month in one machine like a large lathe or anything else. No 2 days were the same. Those days are gone and it's a shame. Tool Making was fun then. All of the machines were manual, by he way. We used big sine plates that we made,, rotary tables and dividing heads. Those were good days. I'm glad that I'm retired now. I've worked in shops like you described and I made excellent money but it wasn't tool making to me. This was an interesting video. Well done.
At a certain company that makes kitchen/laundry appliances based in the US, I was a jouneyman toolmaker. We had bought sometime far in the past a large column drill press, way way way back before my time. It was in the tool room and I liked it because with it's 18" column, it made very straight holes in very thick materials, it didn't care, it was a beast. Once drilled a 3" hole with it and the chips glowed. Anywho, I was tasked to refurbish this tank and if not, scrap. Now this is a machine in a envelope of 16' x 8' x 18', so slightly large. I scrape ways with a guy that I brought in, I had new gears hobbed, got millwright to reset the pad and the whole line up. Rebuilt it with help, but she was beautiful. We found some documentation in a scaled up painted over cubby in the main arm casting. Was a certificate of calibration from the Navy at Norfolk in 1942. Also it's casting record, heat number, and place of manufacture. Cincinnati. She made warships for the US Navy. And she can bore 3" holes through 6" steel still. If you're wondering, she has a 8" Morse 16 spindle. I do not remember the HP of the 3 phase motor, I am not an electrician, I just told them to wire it up and the load it was gonna take.
My dad was a tool and die maker and very proud of his profession.
Sir, what you said is spot on!!! I have never heard it put as accurately as you did. (45 year Diemaker)
Here in Australia we are fitter machinists, we do lathe work, milling, grinding, welding etc, and then assembly as well. Great video, thanks 👍🇦🇺
Multi Skilled is brilliant.
What do you work on please Mark?
Best regards,
Stefano (UK)
@@stefanobio7045 G’day mate. I’m just a retired old boy that does small one of jobs for family, friends & neighbours now. I have a small Chinese lathe, that does everything I need, and everything but a mill. Have a good one 👍🇦🇺
@@markwatters6875
Thanks Mark,
Stay safe
Best regards,
Stefano
I am a Tool & Die Maker. Worked in a small shop with very good guys! First job as an Apprentice was learn how to hand sharpen drills. Every single one in the shop, so maybe 1000 of various sizes...mastered that, then I became very comfortable with all the machines, Milling, radial, center grinder, grinder, Blanchard grinder, lathe, CMM, EDM (Wire & Sink), CNC (Lathe & Mill), boring mill horizontal + vertical. Not sure if I'm missing something, but I could do it all. Sometimes got called to some stamping plant and just go there with tools, figure out why the die is making bad parts and fix it on the spot. CNC, CMM or EDM guy was sick or on vacation, I'd take over, we had a machinist for EDM and one for cutting and squaring blocks, 1 for CNC. Myself or the other T&D apprentice would run CNC's often. For many dies I would get the prints & material list, cut and square the blocks, drill, machine, HT, build the die and out the door entirely myself. Larger jobs, sometimes myself or another T&D was like the leader and handed out work to other guys. I learned the old school way and the modern way. Thoroughly enjoyed it! Quiet, air conditioned, 5 minutes from my house. Couldn't ask for better.
After my place closed, I became a Tool & Cutter Grinder where I became comfortable with making and sharpening any type of tool that you can think of. Then transferred over to being a Gear Cutter. I learned so much extra on top of being a Tool & Die Maker. I don't do that type of work any more but it is a skill not everyone can have. Many of my friends tried T&D when I did, they all got kicked out from not working out. In trade school almost my entire class of T&D apprentices and Machinists had no idea how to do their projects. I helped out around 15 of them get their final project (die) built and working. I did my years worth of projects in about 2 days, so after, every Friday was off :) Just went to the school...Teacher signed I was there, screwed off and got paid for the day. Hey, my company showed me how to work efficiently. Parts were easy to make so why not! :)
and you are a shiey fan!
You did a great job explaining this. When your video first popped up, I thought you would be some kind of pompous guy saying how smart and cool you are. I watch the whole video and I admire your knowledge and the way you explained this. You get two thumbs up 👍🏽👍🏽🤓
So you're saying that I'm not "smart and cool?" LOL
@@TheToolandDieGuy Absolutely : )
I was a toolmaker for a company the produced lubricators for ships engines and sometimes parts for aircraft. I was the only toolmaker in the shop. And those that participated in production were either fitter-turners or fitter-millers. I had tobe a bit of a multi-tasker, who had more that one function; programming CNC machines, workshop calculations and making production jigs and prototype lubricators for the engineering dept. But, I moved on; and became a teacher at technical college. And today, funny enough, I teach woodwork; my dads old trade. I now have a metal workshop at the end of the garden and I make parts, mostly for machine; that have gone out of production.
I started off in tool and die back when I was about 10 years old. Dad babysat by taking me to work and have me do benching/polishing plastic injection molds.
Dad trained as a Gauge maker at Johansson Gauge in Sweden and I just had a natural knack for tool building and machining. I always worked in smaller shops. There were no departments. If the part needed turning, go set up the lathe, milling, grinding same thing. I always found it funny to watch some so-called card carrying tool makers that had no clue as to how to set up a cross slide rotary table. One fellow just sat down and read a newspaper. When asked if he was going to do any work, he said he was waiting for the set up man.
I'm at a desk job now as I'm getting up in years, but still have a fairly well equipped machine shop in my garage. I also still do the work pre-cnc style. I can do both. Manual cutting is slower, but it still makes the parts!
PS
I did get to meet C. E. Johansson on a trip to Sweden back in 1958.
Hold up, Johansson Gauge, as in Jo blocks Johansson Gauge? Wow. I bet you know how to polish and lap pretty well above my skill.
@@scottrackley4457 hi.
Most of my polishing skills are in plastic injection molds. Mirror finish for clear or plated parts. I dont do much anymore as I'm a desk jockey now.
I am a tool &cutter grinder and I started to learn my trade in a mold shop. I learned from a grinder that was experienced as I am now in 1967. I tell people that I am a tool &cutter grinder and they say oh you are tool and die . I tell them no that is a totally different trade.
I think to be a good all round tool & cutter grinder requires as knowledge as tool and die. Most machine shops don't want to tool & cutter grinding in house they think of as indirect labor and would rather send that work out. It looks good on paper but a skilled grinder can save a company a lot and you have better control over your cutting tools. I like work in house and be able to work directly people on the machines . It's very rewarding to give a machine operator a good .
I agree, we had a tool grinder on contract. He was very very good and serviced like 8 plants not our own. Made a very decent living, nice austrian man.
Journeyman Toolmaker here. I served my apprenticeship in the electronic connector industry, then went into Medical device. The word Toolmaker in our area (NE Pa) meant different things. If you served an apprenticeship at a steel mill the training and demands were much different than the training in the connector industry. When my training was complete I could form grind to < .0005 without issue. The real value of being a “Certified Journeyman Toolmaker” is that it’s the equivalent of a college degree. Then when I looked for future employment I used it to leverage higher wages. I learned CNC, WEDM, and 5 axis programming later in my career. That transition was easier than you think all because I knew how to make the parts.
That kind of round robin apprenticeship is still there in job shops that do mold repairs. I did moldmaking in trade school, but I've run grinders, Bridgeport, vertical cnc, surface grinders, EDM (wire, sinker and holepop) etc. When I briefly picked up work in a large outfit, they were absolutely floored that I could work all those machines.
Back in the day printreading was essential to both. Last job before I retired the machinists were not always given prints. They weren't less skilled than I was, but the process had evolved to the point where there was more of a teamwork relationship between engineering and shop floor. We were producing large structures for use in jet turbine engines.
Just to give you an idea- I am also a Tool and Die maker- I was apprenticed at 15, and by the time I was 31, I was a design engineer for a company making surgical tools and aerospace components. I'm also a bit of nerd, and antiwar, so I eventually got promoted to Chief Technical Officer. Unfortunately, I crashed my car and was forced into early retirement due to injuries, but it does still exist- I started in 1994, myself. The change is that it's now less of a project manager path, and more of an engineering path.
Apprenticed at 15? My god,don"t tell the labor department in washington D.C! Most kids can't read at 17teen@
war! what is it good for??
My first apprenticeship was exactly like that but only because I showed a fast learning ability. I got moved around every were and always got a bit of a raise when moved small to massive. Hobbing shaping milling turning and every type of grinding you can think of. Only thing I didn't get to was edm (thanks alot covid) but I still think that is a very very important part of the trade. It truly teaches problem solving
Just some advice from someone who's been there, get some programming and then some 3D modeling (solidworks, etc). Opens doors if you can program/draw. EDM is still just button pushing. Good luck!
Yeah my cnc is lacking with hands on i can use the stuff and wright raw code but i never persued cnc so need. Should retake my course on it i mean it is free to retake the classes if you have passed them.
@@velez910 Also you mentioned hobbing. I know some guys who make big gears (4 to 6 feet diameter) with a CNC machine and they make great money.
@@scottrackley4457 yeah we had a few at the shop really just getting into that cnc Hobber really made easy work but then bout a 5 axis 10' work parts I think was the max it was awesome but much slower. But 90% was manuals we had alot of machines you would run 8 machines by your self at times. Everything from a few inches to 20+ foot ring gears it was awesome. The 5 axis was extremely impressive If it wasn't for heat treating some of the parts would come off at grinding level finishes its was beautiful
@@velez910 saw a 4 foot planetary involute hobbed once - I thought I was good cutting acme threads on a lathe - not
i am reading these comments and this is a treasure trove
i know most of you might not care or understand but i think it is beautiful. what you do is an art and soon to be lost art
you stand in the void of your mind and bring things to life with your hands and million dollar machines
but the old way is dying
every word you share is a story, describes a reality you experienced…right now many frontier models are scraping these words and training on them
as a mathematical person, as a builder…knowing this should excite you. your experience and ideas will live on in the weights of a future AGI model. without this process your knowledge might have died
the AI does not store your words in a file. it does not recall them-take your knowledge and spit it out as a parrot would
think of a large vat that has all of these words mixed in. each word is changed into math…tokenized
at training the model builds an embedding space. we don’t know how it does this
we can’t conceive of this embedding space
it is like a word cloud, but each word is a token. there is a centroid token and…..
but this is in high dimensional space….(gpt4 is 12,288 high dimensional space) and our minds can’t really comprehend this latent space
as the model is trained via human feedback the weights are adjusted. the lossy massive embedding space is changed and shaped by the model
you are in those weights
somehow your knowledge helped a model create a lossy gestalt of the world….
so much so it can Simulate worlds upon worlds and each second of the inference much of this simulation is in superposition
until you ask it to continue to output tokens
i think of some youtube comment sections as repositories of specific worlds and memories…words shared from the heart…look below….we don’t know each other but many are compelled to share their life with strangers
much of ancient knowledge would have been lost if not for the arab scholars who transcribed much of our ancient work.
if they had not existed we would have just myth. much of it would be lost
high quality tokens are rare….but a very difficult trade culture that is dying is a cohort of high quality tokens
i think 95% won’t bother to read or care about all this i’ve shared
for the few….cast aside much of what you have read about large language models and diffusion models (what we call “ai”) and find two papers
1/ Attention is All You Need
2/ Simulators by “janus” (this is a “post” but so much more. it is the only post cited by a writer for Nature magazine. read it
and when you finish read my words again. with enough data a model can simulate the trade and model the steps we took to get to the stage of building a GPU and a data center and bring forth what might one day be thought of as the Sand God
My Journeyman Mentor told me on the day I started (1980) that he was training the last of the Dinosaurs' . Good explanation of the subject.
Excellent viewing, brought back great memories of my apprenticeship. I started in 79, Capstain Lathes were the CNC machines of the day & also didn't have digital readout on machines then, so had to always get rid of the BACKLASH in them days. Was taught that if I worked on the older rundown machines, it would make me a better machinist. Being a toolmaker gave me great satisfaction to start from scratch & complete the whole job & assemble it. No disrespect to machinist these days, wonder if they could cope without digital readouts?????...ha!
I was told to never trust a DRO, mind that I was in my twenties and these guys were 50+. They referred to them as "lying a** BS"
And yes even LeBlonds had terrible backlash, always put a magnet mount on my drop indicator on the ways to know where I was at
I'm 49, deaf and autistic with frail parents. I built a 3D printer and router from scratch. When I was in college in the 1990s, I took a machine shop class. I'm still trying to break through that barrier to transition from production line work to higher paying work like CNC machining that I can easily do if someone hires and trains me.
As an engineer for a tooling job shop, I had to go through and work on each machine with the toolmakers. Wasn’t 6 months at a time but the month or so I got on each machine allowed me to create better designs and process plans. I appreciate a good toolmaker now, I can have a quick meeting with them and not worry about how the fully assembled tool will come out. Basically like having an engineer with better machining skills in the tool room.
I was a tool and die maker back in the 90's. Worked for Talon INC and made zipper dies and molds. Spent most my time behind a Parker surface grinder and EDM's. Made all the electrodes for the EDM's. Spent several years in the production press area and make one off parts for the dies until the order was filled. Repaired molds with a TIG welder and used an EDM to burn the pockets back out and a surface grinder to skim the surfaces. NAFTA killed the trade and I left the field at 32 and went back to college. I miss the field, was my favorite work. I hate IT Engineering and computer after 23 years in an office. I like the money. Made 17.95 and hour back in the 90 as a tool maker. Today at 58 I make 120K working in the computer field. I would give up the money to go back and make parts again.
Same. I had to give up being a master to go into design and get a degree. I miss my tools. I miss the challenge of given a print, provide the tool Loved solidworks tho.
42 years as a tool and die maker. Learned a lot of information that I still apply today in retirement.
4 years of school is nothing compared to what you will lean In the next 25-30 actually working the trade.
The amount of stuff I know about metal astounds me. I'm just past 25 in. Still designing everything under the sun.
The key thing you said was that the Tool Maker/Die Maker knows how to "make the adjustments" when the project is coming to a close, and things are not quite there. I come from Tool & Die with stamping dies. You have to visualize what the metal is doing in the die, and know how to make the required adjustments (sometimes the metal is not consistent in hardness, form-ability, etc., so changes have to be made...sometimes sharpening the cutting edges will have an affect) The finished parts needs constant monitoring.
Agreed, experience teaches you where to cheat :P
Yes I agree, l was a master mold maker for 44 years 2 years of trade school, lots of night school ,my first job was twin tool incorporated 32 man shop, it was departments 7 years there worked in every department . I wanted to be a around tool maker and went to a small shop and all you got were part prints and had to design and build from scratch according to specifications
I agree with his assessment that we are more project managers and assembler/fitters but I would add that as a Tool and Die Maker, making stamping dies, we do all the grinding as well, even tradionally. Grinding is a significant portion of what we do.
I had to break out the compound sine plate last week, got to show the apprentices how to use it
@@scottrackley4457 I had to make a copy of the paper, for a gauge inspector, showing how it's not two simple sine stackups... the first angle changes as you change the second angle... lol compound holes and tooling balls lol
@@yelims20 I had the advantage of taking Trig when I was sophomore in high school. It certainly made things a lot easier.
@@scottrackley4457 me too, although I had no real use measuring flagpoles lol it clicked with the machinery handbook. but i always felt the two years of mechanical drafting was my biggest leg up. I had no idea that I would end up as toolmaker, I was heavy into electronics and liked to draw lol now im done, with a head full of really specific knowledge that i couldn't give away... the future looks disappointing.
@@yelims20 I know. We have 6 apprentices right now and 2 might be decent one day. One of them will probably be good.
Back in the day, Apprenticeships taught respect alongside the theory and practical. The whole scheme encompassed a way of disciplined working.
I think that one of the biggest mistakes I made in my life , was not taking the opportunity to go to Machinist School when I had the chance .
But , I had just gotten out of the military , and starting another school just didn't appeal to me at the time .
I worked in a shipyard environment for ten years , , and was occasionally sent to the machine shop when our crew didn't have any work in the yard . I enjoyed being around the machines and the operators , but did not really get any "hands on" time doing the work. I was just a "helper" . At one point , the machine shop foreman tried to get me transferred over to his shop , but my foreman wouldn't allow me to transfer , He said "he needed me" where I was . It was something of a disappointment . But , also a learning experience . I got to see both sides of the work being done for the job we were involved in at the time .
Hello Bill,
That folder of drawings that you held up, was that of component drawings or of the mould tool components?
In my experience many Toolmakers are expected to also design the tools that they make. When you design a tool like a mould tool, that brings lots of decisions to be made. How many parts per annum and what moulding machine is the mould planned to run on? That will drive the number of cavities decision. One machine in the moulding shop might be running three shifts whilst another might be under utilised so the mould will be planned to run there. Design of ejector pin locations and gates to ensure that the part is produced with minimal waste and minimal risk of scrap and fulfills all the requirements of the part design.
Machinists tend to specialise in the optimal machining of parts. Toolmakers specialise in the optimal construction and performance of tools to make parts. Mould tools, diecasting tools, forging tools, blanking and drawing tools, jigs and fixtures for sub and main assembly each have their own design, material and manufacturing requirements.
As an Engineer that went to a College of Technology not University, I very rapidly learnt that to make good engineering design and manufacturing decisions you have to completely understand how Machinists work, how Toolmakers work and how Assembly Operators work. Get them to work as a team and to each respect the others contributions, then you can achieve anything.
Good to see the current push to bring Manufacturing back in the USA!
Good, I agree with your comments.
Yup, "here's the drawing of the part."; "that's the press it will run in."'; make me a tool.
Excellent . I started in 78 . My first 6 months were spent in the tool crib . The thought being , If you don't know the proper name of a tool then you have no business using it .
My apprenticeship was exactly this. Old school. As we are an old school shop (I'm only 24) and glad it went that way. I know now if I want to specialize I can. But I also have a better idea of what machines I'm good at running amd what I'm just okay at.
If you're a tool and die maker. troubleshooting in the press is most important. you should be able the grind manually machine. If CNC is needed, you communicate with the programmer. To make adjustments on 3D surfaces. Your job is the developed the part to spec.
i have worked as a machinist, ME, tool and die maker, tool and die engineer for plastic and powdered metal, System technician, system engineer and architect. 8 years ago i started a cnc shop for the challenge of building a business, while i teach myself more about EE. every thing i have learned has been self taught or thru on the job training from numerous companies that i have worked on projects with.
I worked in stamping tool shops. The tool makers built the stamping tools and kept them running. The machinist kept everything around those tools running, the stamping presses and other machines. I worked as a proto type machinist building new machines used in the manufacturing process. We used to tease the toolmakers about making new tools and then shimming the heck out of them to get them running right.
Idk if I'd call myself a tool maker but I've taken projects from customer sketch to Autocad drawing, the saw, mill, cnc if needed, write the program, setup the machine and run it, or manual machine if needed. All the way to fully finished and ready to ship.
A machinist makes parts, and a tool maker puts them together to make a tool, but there is no reason each can't do both. My first apprenticeship, my boss wanted to know what I could do, he told me to make a chess set, and that i had to use every tool in the shop to do it. Took me all day, and a trip to the library because I didn't know what all the pieces looked like. 65 years later, and i still have that set.
When I was going through my trade/apprenticeship my boss always told me. The difference was both will screw things up but a toolmaker can fix his screw ups. 😬
Good idea if a Machinist is also a welder.
Some companies refuse reworked welded machine parts (NASA)
Other have no problems (Oil Field Tools) make it work attitudes.
I Started out as A New trainee. 6 weeks in each department.
I was a Heli-arc aluminum welder for 5 yrs prior.
I Went to Trade school for Drafting and Design.
Company told me I was at the top of all trainee.
Placed me on the New NC Machining Center.
(VMC 150 Monarch) Fanuc controls. Punched taped reel to reel readers for tool paths. Bell Helicopter parts. +-.0015 tolerances on most all dim.
32-64 surface Finishes.
Manager had his MBA degree, never touched a machine.
His first grand idea Paint all machine RED!
We freaked out, an OLD Engine Lath was painted!
God awful UGLY. He changed his mind.
35 yrs later I've been retired since 08.
From 78-08 CNC Machining has taken over the Industry.
Old school was nice.
CNC Is Sweet Accurate Fast!
Programming was my cup of tea. Last 19 yrs I did Programming Fixture Tool design for production set-ups.
Set-Up for Operators (Button Pushers)
On to the next Adventure!
I enjoyed being a Machinist
Recommend to many young folks. (Men and Woman) women are faster with less complaining.😊
I want to be a tool maker one day. This stuff seems so cool to me.
Started serving in 93. Loved it the challenge of it, and your never finished learning. It's such a vast and varied trade though is quite stressful. Probably the most stressful. No doubt our trade is changing all the time, companies looking for toolmakers don't even look for or refer to us as toolmakers anymore 😢. They put their own fancy names on them now. I trained on all manual machines the old way, using sine bars etc, but that old skill is gone now. Its all CNC now and the machinists today wouldn't know how to work a hacksaw or a file. They have no manual skills anymore or feel for the machines. Its all figures and buttons, something i had no interest in. Really miss those machines 😕
You hit the nail on the head, 'no feel for the machines'. My two most loved machines were my 3D pantograph with tool & cutter grinder and Deckel FP1 milling machine, wasn't much you couldn't do with them. Get someone else to do the lathe work if you could.⚙🔩📏📐
My grandfather was a toolmaker, but I did not have the opportunity to talk with him about his trade. At the present time, as someone who occasionally needs to hire someone for specific work, I consider the difference to be: tolerance of 0.002" and uses one machine goes to the machinist and cost is X, tolerance of 0.0002" and needs multiple machines (mill or lathe, then grinder) goes to the toolmaker and cost is 10X.
"2 thou" is a mile to a toolmaker. "2 tenths" is just right.
Years ago while doing some electrical work in a tool & die shop the easy going foremen started screaming & cursing then left for the day. He ruined a $5,000 mold that he was working on all week. Of course it was a rush job. He wanted to pay for a new mold but owner said he did the same thing. Heard working on close toletances cause a higher petcentage.of tool & die workers to go crazy. Loved watching CNC, EDM & wire machines.
When I was an apprentice tool and die maker going to school the teacher said the students who don’t make it can go across the hall to the carpenter class
I never apprenticed, just took a class back in the 1970s and then got my first job in a sheet metal shop doing whatever was necessary on a lathe, Bridgeport or surface grinder, working alone all the time. Then went to a die cast shop and either did maintenance part replacement or repaired existing dies. Again, alone on the second shift. I never considered myself a tool and die guy, just a guy who worked on dies. And oh yeah - the owner's son wouldn't let me near the EDM machine because they were afraid I'd learn too much and leave them for a new job.
I've been a Master Tool & Die maker for 20 years, and have been designing tools for 8. My 2 cents is that every Toolmaker (which I'll use for Tool & Die makers, read stamping, and our brothers the Moldmakers) is a Machinist, not every Machinist is a Toolmaker. I am able to, and have, ran every machine in my shop, and since I've been chained to a desk, still sneak off to make things before the engineering manager catches me on a machine. As the Tool and Die guy says, this doesn't mean I'm as good as the specialists in a certain machine, it does mean I can make whatever they can make it just usually takes more time, bc I don't do it every day. That being said, I have utmost respect for the Master Machinists at what they do, we Toolmakers just have a more broad overview.
Btw, I'll go toe to toe with any lathe hand anyday :P
PS. To Midwest Moose, I still don't know a damned thing.
Worked in a tool grinding shop in the 1970s. What I learned then was that tool and die makers made the tools and the dies. The machinists used the tools. Our level of precision for making tools was higher so the tools could perform their job. Understanding the process, and the materials was part of the tool makers job, the machinist did not have that level of understanding. Above the tool and die maker were the tool scrappers. These guys would would recondition machine tools by remaking flat surfaces. My friend, a real tool and die maker, was a real genius and to this day makes custom tools and dies but more than anything is the design of tools that solve difficult problems. I only ever sharpened end mills. The machine I used was put together with custom parts built at the tool grinding shop. No commercial end mill sharpener was then available. In all of Southern California there were only 3 places that sharpened end mills. Much of our work came from aerospace. Sometimes we would get jobs that manned spaceflight use and a ton of paper work and requirements.
The repeatative nature of end mill grinding was not for me, and since I was getting a business degree, I was moved to the front office to deal with customers, since I had learned enough to save the owners valuable time . The only thing I could do better than the real tool makers was kill flys during break. The owners were great teachers, patient, and fun loving.
My friend who got me the job, and I rented a 2 bedroom bungalow. The garage was occupied by his Cincinnati Milling Machine, which his dad had bought him in high school. I learned a lot about materials from Chris.
Allow me to add 2 more cents to your analogy. In the age of CNC we now have "Machine Operators", then we have "Machinists", "CNC Programmers/Setup", "Tool & Die Makers/Mold Makers", and "Engineers". Machine Operators are often called Machinists, but I assure you they are not! Machinists are often confused with Tool Makers, but I assure you they are not! Mechanical Engineers who don't have a Tool Makers background are at a clear and distinct disadvantage.
The USA is in desperate need to bring back manufacturing to its own shores. There is a place here for all levels of Machining.
I answered an add for a machinist position at a local manufacturer...
Turns out they needed an operator ( button pusher).
I declined their offer!
I completely agree, I by trade am a Master Carpenter, I may have a few more years on you, But my trade has changed a lot too, where (before I retired) we had very few power tools short of a circular saw.. Air nailer's came out not long before I retired. I in my personal shop have all the new high tech toys, Hell they hadn't even came out with battery tools till years after I retired, I have them in my shop, cause retired does not mean you stop doing what you love, I just did projects for family, good friends or high paying clients.. Hell I did what Dr's do, I went into privet practice, LOL.. I can't do much anymore, I have to sit down most of the time. I taught my children the trade, my grandchildren are carpenters (both boys & girls) and if I'm still kicking I'll teach my great grandchildren.. So much has changed over the years, I was in my late 20's when I became a master (worked & studied since I was 5). My oldest grandson is 15 and he knows more then I did at 30. My oldest Granddaughter is 17 and she is now a Master Carpenter, she has skills I never could have imagined 30 years ago.. I am happy to say. at least with my children & grandchildren, the carpentry trade is in great hands.. Sorry to have rambled on, I am still very passionate about all the trades, I don't do much machine work, I do know how (somewhat) Thank you very much for sharing.. I am tempted to start my own carpentry channel, but my kids & grandkids would be doing the work, while I talk.. LOL.. Be blessed and have a great day...
I started my apprenticeship in 68 worked mostly in job shops every tool maker &mold maker did all of their own work with the exception of EDM but we made the electrodes and in several shops did our own EDM i only worked in one shop where they had bench hands polishing that was nice i finally went to part time when i hit 70 spent about half&half die work & mold work at least in most die work i didn't have to deal with graffite its hell without a vacuum system
Thank you for your words! Great video
I worked as a mold maker for Dj inc for several years they were the biggest plastic injection molder under roof at one time 900,000 sft and the best place to work.
Everything is being rolled back into "machinist" these days, we are expected to master every machine and do more than ever for less pay than ever. It's fun, but I wish our pay had kept up with the rate of inflation. We'd be making just as much as engineers who sit around browsing reddit most of the day.
And don’t forget there screwups on there drawings always something wrong always.
As a young man, (about 55 years ago) I learned from my two uncles, who were machinists, to respect machinists and the knowledge and value. They encouraged me to be an engineer, who they, in turn respected. Throughout my 40+ year career as an engineer, I have maintained that respect for the machinists that I worked with, and, with a single exception, they have returned the respect for my engineering knowledge and skill.
From your comment, it appears you don't respect engineers for what they bring to the table. That's unfortunate, and your loss.
@@frankfronczak4469 I respect engineers who earn it. It's hard to do so these days when I need to be giving constant lessons to them on how to make a proper blueprint, how to properly use gd&t, and how to design for manufacturability, only to be ignored because I am just a lowly machinist. I signed up to make parts, not to teach engineers how to do their jobs.
@@SuperAWaC I will never defend arrogance - on the part of engineers or tradesmen. In my experience, I have encountered as many tradesmen who are arrogant and hostile towards engineers from day one and who are unwilling to accept advice from an engineer as I have seen engineers who are unwilling to listen to good advice from tradesmen. It cuts both ways. Unfortunately, it is just one more insurmountable obstacle that will never be overcome. There will likely always be good engineers and good machinists, and there will always be bad engineers and bad machinists. Fortunately, in my experience, most members of both professions fall in the former camp. And there will always be deficiencies in knowledge and skill in all individuals. If you were to put the shoe on the other foot, I would think that you would find that many engineers possess knowledge and exhibit skill in areas that you personally have deficiencies, quite likely even in areas directly related to what they see as how you do your job.
New York State Certified Journeyman Tool & Die Maker for 21 years now. I've been called a Machinist. Kind of a slap in the face when you go through the Apprenticeship Program. I'm sure Engineers love when a designer is called an Engineer, right? They've earned that right to be an "Engineer" however, I have had many great Engineers that understand a Toolmaker's (machinists) needs, and so many who haven't a clue how to draw/design with intent to machine. I have had Engineers design with a screw hole as a datum, then dimension each hole incrementally after that... Not from a real zero, e.g., corner, dowel hole, work hole. I have also had "designers" give me the best prints ever because they know what I need as the Toolmaker to machine their parts. My designers care to do a design review with me. Engineers expect me to just make it. It looks amazing on the screen. Engineers make about $20,000 more than I do fresh out of college. All for me to fix their screwed up drawings. UGH! 20+ years and still underpaid. BTW, I also wear a white shop coat! How old is that Gerstner on the right anyway??
A tool maker understands a sine gauge, a machinist understands propduction and work within a certain given time frame. The production process production is increased by the precision and time taken to accurately design and make a jig or fixture.
43 yrs in.
Probably 7 more to go.
I’ve turned every handle in the trade. Made parts/fixtures/tooling what ever big and small.
One thing I have noticed is that a lot of talk about Tool and Die makers how guys have been around how some don’t like to teach how some guys do.
But I learned that if you won’t making money for who ya where working for it was See You Later!!
No one is saying anything like that.
Hey your never going to be Well Well off being a Toolmaker. If ya saved and invested maybe.
The money is not there unless your place is Big shop.
Work hard, Work fast get the job done thats the way I grew up.
Get it done Go Have A Beer.
Talk shop….
I met a friend who happens to be a professor in mechatronics. Now I’m managing an R&D. I’m having to learn everything you mentioned to include a fiber laser and two HAAS CNC’s 3d printers and programming micro electronics . I learned how to grind a tool for a fly cutter just last week from our 63 yo master machinist. To me, the man walks on water. I feel blessed just to be in his presence. You have no idea.Just one year ago, I was a truck driver.
In Australia, I get fitter machinist who say "yeah I can do toolmaking". I give them a pressed metal part or 3D printed plastic proto and say, "ok then, design me a tool to produce these in a press or a mould to produce this plastic part in a injection moulding machine".
I get blank looks mostly..
When I would hear machinists tell me that they could do what I did as a tool maker, I always asked them why they chose to make less money?
my right ear really enjoyed this video
Ive only been doing tool and die for 5 years and its a drop in the bucket for most of you
Those 3am times trying to get a mold together still exist lmao. I'm in a general machining and Fabrication shop now much happier way more variety. Making Mold and Dies get's old quick did it from 15-24. There is small shops that still teach this way, though very rare and if you find one stick with it.
I've had the same. "Guys, this die has to run on Monday morning 6am, or assembly is getting called off 8 hours before that. That call is in 5 hours."
Old guys remembrance of those mystical machine shops and the stalwart icons we looked up to in the trades during the dark ages (toasty incandescent bulbs). A lot of suffering and sacrifice for things that shortly became forgotten heaps of scrap metal.
I'm currently a machine operator. My end goal is to finish the engineering degree I started before becoming a machine operator, but machinist and tool and die maker are stops I have noted for on the way.
You will be a great engineer if you do. And stay humble. Understand what you are asking.
Realmente... Eu também sou Ferramenteiro, estudei 3 anos no SENAI em período integral ( 1995 - 1998) para conseguir um certificado... e aqui no Brasil acontece igual, com a chegada das máquinas CNC's, a nova geração, etc... Abraço a todos.
What is your opinion about the emergence of 3-D industrial technology printing?
They were the good old days
I started drilling 3 holes, and tapping 3 holes on a multiple spindle dual head drill press. Ended up as a mold maker after a lot of years.
Difference between a tool and die maker, and mold maker, is to be a mold maker you need a Gerstner and a pink rock. 😉
Finished my apprenticeship in 2008. Still answering this question to people to this day lol
An ole timer once told me that the difference between a Machinist and a Toolmaker was that a Toolmaker was a slow machinist!
So what would you make of a millwright ?
Millwright is the person you call when you want something large dead nuts where it's supposed to be. My ask is "give me someone who can align this up." Doesn't matter what, they do it.
This is what it takes to be a "Great" manufacturing engineer.... Walk The Talk to be able & ready to improve to the process that you designed.
Don't play the blame game and keep your nose in your work.... No Distractions : )
That the differences between an engineer and a train driver.
an engineer listen to the people making his ideas come to be and those that tell you to do it their way because they went to school
One of the best engineers I ever work with defected from Russia and I hated to see him leave when Russia fell, but he went back because his family was still there
Very similar to Carpenter Construction Foreman job. Once i moved up to a Superintend i was glorified Baby sitter. I wish i would have kept all the of job plans. Sometimes there was hundreds of pages and a book of specifications and on an on.
Caterpillar in decatur toolmakers are as you described. They still have apprentice program
I agree with that Dee Dee guy. I'm a lowly mashinist and have been for 40 years. Apprentice trained in England by a nationalised company. I have made tools, dies, molds, and everything from NASA stuff to farmer Joe's shit house hinges at three in the morning and any other time of day. When I interview, and am asked " which machines I can run" l answer "all of them", but I still consider myself a "lowly Machinist". I'm not so arrogant for anything else.
I'm currently sitting in my Big 3 skilled trades apprenticeship as a toolmaker right now watching your video lol....I'm only 4 days in though
Interesting explanation-
are we getting back to drafting anytime soon?
Some of us draft everyday. I do. Just with SolidWorks in 3D. Even Autocad is on its way out, I only use it for rough sketches or legacy sketches I can bring into a 3D environment.
@@scottrackley4457 well congratulations!
I'm referring to Phil's short-lived mechanical drafting class some time back-
@@horacerumpole6912 old school drafting has it's place, make no offense. Just everything is digital now, 3D is what we require. I learned the pencil and paper type, and I miss it sometimes.
who bevel sharpens a compass lead anymore?
@@horacerumpole6912 or even rapidograph pens, remember those? A set cost like $100 bucks back in the day and they had the syringe thing for the ink.
Meadville PA?
FYI Tool n Die Guy, your audio is flat on the right channel.
Still master machinist here alive and still carring on.
I appreciate your video.Thank you
Did yesteryear's toolmakers ( either within a firm or as an industrial body) play any role in
the development of the project management tools and techniques that we now have?.
Or were they just users. Had there been greater emphasis on the project management
side, would it have lessened the demise of the american machining industry in the world?.
No, Tool Makers invented most of the basic ideas. We were engineers before they thought up the degree.
Perfect explanation!
Thank you!
Sir can you suggest any book for material selection for die and mould
And book for how to make die
Please
Hi I work for a law enforcement badge making company in west coast and we are looking for die making companies. Any information appreciated. Thank you
Your obv a mould maker at heart! Cheers!
If you have to drill to get more threads watch out for those water lines 😧
Fortunately that system does still stand true in South Africa. I'm currently working as an apprentice at Non-ferrous Metal works. And as a 4th year apprentice, I can confidently say that Toolmakers are still taught in almost every field.
what are you working with, copper? aluminum?