I have had someone check a if valve was open, it wouldn't turn anticlockwise, so he assumed it was fully open. It was actually tight shut, but this was picked up in pre-dive checks. Whatever the original mechanical reason, I always turn it back a smidge from full open just so it's obvious.
Well, I buy your logic about the old valves, however; I always turn mine back a bit so that I know instantly whether it is open. If it moves a bit counter clockwise and stops, it is open. Some people close the valve so tightly that if you try it counter clockwise and it doesn't want to turn, it must be open which is the wrong answer. If you open and then turn it back a bit, I don't see any down side especially when you do your SPG breath test before diving. Oh, and just for fun, if you check your dual bathroom taps, one goes clockwise and one goes counter clockwise to open. All in good fun; always enjoy your videos.
Good points Barry but let me share this story again. I trained a young, new diver and when told to open the tank valve by turning the knob counter-clockwise he asked, what is that? Kid had not seen a 'analog' clock only digital his entire life. Back to righty tighty, lefty loosey. Also for taps, many are now single handle joy stick types. My grand kids think my dual taps are cool!
I use only 1/8th or 1/16th, but always shut it all the way off, it make for a quicker double checking as to the state by feel alone. It has nothing to do with their outdated reasons.
I've had an emergency with a diver who did this. The guide had opened the valve, unknown to them. Then they "opened" it, effectively closing it, because some people have a hard time with left and right. They 'closed' it a quarter turn, effectively opening it. Drawing a test breath on the surface showed her everything was OK, the gauge showed no issues, but still she got into trouble at 30m. She had trouble drawing breath and her gauge went to zero on each breath, then went back up. She nearly panicked because she couldn't breathe until I shared my air and we called the dive. Obviously in hindsight the almost closed valve opening didn't have the throughput at 30m for 4 times the air volume. It's one of those things that you think will never happen to you but it's easily preventable. fully open or close your valve. You'll notice it's closed before you hit the water even if you do an incomplete buddy check (as is common on vacation). This is the very reason Tech divers learn to fully open and close. You can't accidentally dive with a closed valve.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter This one kid not knowing the terms cw and ccw has nothing to do with the topic. That guy would definitely still notice if the valve moves easily in both directions and hits a hard stop in one of them after a small fraction of a turn (like 1/16) and then he'd think "okay it's open" - IF you had taught him the correct way. That would definitely help him. I don't mean to offend you in any way, but any decent instructor would have drilled into him the directions in which you open or close valves if they were training that guy and had noticed his problem. I actually can't even get my head around the fact that you really seem to believe this nonsense answer to be a valid argument. Your "turn it till the end if you don't know cw from ccw" will definitely not let him know if it's open or shut until he confirms it another way, like not turning it (or turning it till the end) and then trying to take a breath from the reg or pushing the purge button to check (which you should always do anyway, I tend to check the valve and my air like another 3-4 times right before putting on the BC, while doing the buddy check and right before entering the water). What you are trying to teach here in this instance actually CAUSES or at least provokes people who are bad with directions closing it shut - as has been proven 100% by what that other guy (Mic feedbak) experienced.
We teach the students to turn the knob a quarter way back to prevent it from being broken by the person who would be checking and might think it is closed tightly and try to force open it, resulting in a knob or stem damage. That is the only reason. Therefore, it is not really a myth. P.S. Vindicator knobs are good and helpful.
@@GinEric84 it does happen, I have fixed several broken valves because of that - usually the stem inside is square and it gets rounded up - need to replace it, easy fix :)
you are right sir, i am retyred navy technician and this go's for all kind of valves ,this procedure is the safe way to avoid mistakes and broken valves.
@@Tegneaufreak Excuse me, the valve is open, and turning it a quarter way back does not make it closed. You have to give it several turns to shut down. Therefore, in which way do I endanger my student's life?
I used to open the valve all the way until the handle stopped and the leave it there. Once diving in FL, there was some chop and I was on the platform getting ready to enter the water and the Divemaster grabbed hold of me to keep me steady as I put on my second fin. What I didn’t know was that he also grabbed my valve and, feeling it was fully turned, assumed it was closed, so as he had ahold of me, he unknowingly shut off my air. I didn’t realize he had touched my valve until I did my giant stride and got down a few feet. Luckily I set my tank high enough so I can reach back and grab the valve if needed, and I definitely needed it then. A lot of things wrong happened there, both on my end and the divemaster’s end. Now, I fully open the valve, then turn it back a bit. If you can rotate the handle both directions, the air is on. I also always triple check my air before my giant stride, even after we’ve already double checked our air in our buddy check.
Appreciate you sharing the experience. Every dive agency teaches pre-dive checks but once on a boat others, like the DM, get involved. Wish more locations used a Vindicator to show true on/off to prevent no-air dives! Thanks for watching Casey.
Mr. Peirce, i am just now getting into diving and I just wanted to extend my thanks to you and everyone that helps make the videos. I have learned so much and really enjoy learning from you. Thank you for taking your time to share your knowledge and experiences. Please keep them coming and know ill be watching! God Bless sir!
I very much appreciate your feedback Taylor. My plan is to continue making these as long as its fun and viewers want them. There are lots of scuba channels and glad you like my efforts.
....old school here Alec, tried and tested 1/2 a turn back for me in other things aswell , including water stop taps, boat sea cocks I have come across left hand thread shut off valves and that part turn movement lets you know it's not a seized or locked or over tightened component...............
If its only your items, you know about it and depend on it. Add in a buddy (sometimes a stranger), it gets complicated. From a mechanical view, its totally not needed. Thanks for watching.
Hi Alec, thanks for providing the background to this myth, much appreciated. It annoys me when someone on the boat checks my tank valve and turns it back a quarter, and when asked why they don't know other than that's what they were taught. I have a few tanks with Vindicator knobs, very useful.
Back in the stone age years of diving, the 1950's to 1980's, 1/4 back was needed due to the internal 1st stage parts tending to lock up. Today, there is no reason for any turn back. Use 3 fingers to open until it stops fully open. A
I have two dives left for my Open Water, and this is still taught. I asked my instructor why, and he admitted it wasn't necessary anymore, but that's how the agency wants it trained. I have not been closing a quarter turn, nor do I plan to.
Great video, have been watching all of your videos from years back. So many great tips and knowledge for me as someone who is soon moving to Florida and want to get scuba certified
I personally have been taught to close a valve quarter turn even before I started scuba diving - that's exactly the way you operate valves on a ship (not only for compressed air, also for water, fuel, oil, steam, etc). You do it this way so that it's easy to check if the valve is open or not. When it's at a terminal position (fully open or fully closed) it will take a bit of effort to move, when it's turned back just a bit it's loose and easy to move and if you really want to make sure then it takes a quarter turn to the left to check. That's how you immediately know if a valve is open or closed, so I never really questioned why it's being taught this way as I assumed that's for the same reason. I don't really see harm in doing so too.
Like many dive gear changes over the years, the initial reason for the turn back was no longer needed, just still taught. As for no harm, will Kevin has twice had DM's turning his air OFF not on due to the turn back. He switched to Vindicator valves (see my video on them), with no problems since. Take care a stay safe Hunter.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter I really am at a loss of words for the DM, I don't think I'll ever understand how you can make such a mistake, especially that it is that dangerous. Stay safe.
Righty tighty lefty loosey. Thanks for the vid. Just getting back in after about 7yrs out. Cert in 99 so a lot has changed for me and tips like this are very handy
That "Righty tighty lefty loosey" is one of the dumbest expressions ever! I make no damn sense of any kind! Nothing is going right or left, it is all rotating at once. People are just morons! Anyone who has done ANY plumbing know it is utter crap. One wrench goes clockwise while the other goes counterclockwise no F'g rights or lefts involved. In mechanics a bolt goes in the opposite rotation of a nut on the other side. It is pure BS.
@@toriless wow ?? mate if you don’t like a comment you can feel free to simply take a breath and move on by ... not hard !! The term is used by a lot of people who may not have the NASA level of plumbing experience that you clearly have ?? I don’t know ?! It clearly refers to looking directly “at” the item and turning it “right” or clockwise to tighten and turning “left” or anti clockwise loosen. I know you make no sense of it so I thought I’d explain. Again, no need to have commented unless you’re one of these people that has nothing better to do than troll comments and give people a serve for things you don’t like. If so .... that’s sad. Have a nice day
Thanks for the history and info. I too had been taught (scuba and fire dept) to turn back a quarter, and have taught it for years. Now we teach to open all the way and when it stops, just to back it loose; slight finger roll back. Mostly so people dont think it's stuck closed and try to crank the valve knob off. But it's not near the quater back that we had been doing. It's interesting to read everyone's take on this though. Definitely a long running idea for all types of valves and a passionate subject for some.
Thank you for this video. I found myself on the wrong side of the argument for the “stale air” video you made a while back. Someone showed me your video and showed me “the light”
I have a one experience that could indicate why turning the valve a quarter can be a good practice: I was working in a laboratory that used a lot of compressed gasses. Back there I had an instrument that practically only I was using. One morning I came to work and started to put up the system (booting computers, turning on power, turning off heating and turning on gasses). I grabbed the valve knob on a CO2 cylinder and twisted counterclockwise. It didn't budge. Instinctively I twisted a little harder and it still wouldn't move. I started thinking I couldn't recall the valve having got stuck ever before. Only then it occurred to me that the valve was already fully open. And sure enough, late the night before that morning someone else had used the instrument and had forgot to close the cylinder valve. I don't know, but intuitively it would sound reasonable, that maybe valves can get injured if they are forcibly twisted when at either extreme position? So I did reasoning that, when you are doing a buddy check on your dive partner, you try their tank valve by turning it open. When you do so and it stops after quarter turn, you know it's open and don't misinterpret it to think that the valve is stuck.
Thanks for sharing your valve open story. With todays scuba tank valves. no need for the back turn. Just open with 2 fingers is all the force needed. Also many makers are adding Vindicator indicators to tanks for visual confirmation. A
Had a cave diving partner using new doubles with sizeable rubber valves. Unknowingly as we swam through low passage, his valves were hitting the ceiling and closing. He noticed breathing getting hard, and his gauge plunged with each breath. After a brief panic I calmed him down and opened the vales, we exited the dive. He replaced those rubber valves with small metal ones asap!
I remember those times, I remember the 1/4 turn back, ooh and the j valves, no BCD's Now as an instructor, your absolutely right updating our selves is a serious responsibility.
A good test before jumping off the boat. Kevin told me of his dive buddy checks and sucking in a dry reg as he left the boat! Good thing his BC was full!
I was a volunteer firefighter for 7 or 8 years, well even we learned to close them a quarter. Because they could jam, so we close them always a little bit.
The original reason for the 1/2 turn back was absolutely valid, in the 1950's to 1970's. Modern tank valves don't have the parts jamming problem but divers continue to follow what they were taught. Hope it opened your eyes to old practices still followed today. Thanks for watching Ben.
agree with the old and the new valves and how they work, however the 1/4 turn back is still very relevant but for different reasons. AND this is why. in my experience, when i have fully opened the valve, and helpers on the boat or even on shore double check that valves are opened have in some instances tried opening and already open valve, and ended up stripping the valve because it felt like it was closed, if the valve was 1/4 turned back, they would have felt the difference and would not have forced the open valve to the point of stripping the valve, so not bad practice to be honest.
You must dive with really strong DM's and staff. My three fingers of force to lock open is all I use. Some super macho he-man gorillas thing really tightly open is better than just 3 fingers. They strip valves and cost the diver and shop unnessessary maintenance. A
I always wondered if this was a something that persisted through many generations but nobody ACTUALLY remembers WHY it is being done. Old Joke : I noticed my wife cutting the end off the roast before cooking it. Asked her why. She said her mother did it. Her mother said HER mother did it. Asked her great grandmother and she said ... Oh, I had a short roasting pot for my small oven. Another example : Pressing the accelerator to the floor before starting a car. Why? Well in the carburetor days it set the choke. With fuel injection it was no longer necessary but people knew "you have to do it" without knowing why.
I remember those old ways too especially pressing the gas once to start. We have lived through a lot so this is my way of educating those who have no idea why somethings are done this way. Appreciate the stories my friend.
It also injects a small amount of fuel but that is only useful when it is cold. I have a hybrid. I just push a button, it will start the engine when it needs more energy. No dead batteries, even if I do not drive it for a long time like these days.
excellent vulgarization. myths always come from lack of knowledge, it is one of the reason why I'm an advocate of a solid technical instruction of the future divers. somebody that knows in depth his equipment have much better chances to stay calm and find a solution than somebody that does just knows how to operate it. It is why the astronauts are much more than pilots, they know in detail the design of their space vehicules.
Mmmmm? Have to disagree on this one, as a commercial diver I was trained that standard operating procedure was fully open back quarter turn, not for the reason of valve protection but for consistent safety procedure, i.e if a valve is already fully open, then confirming it's fully open would only take a 1/4 turn counter clockwise and no harm done because it's already fully open, whereas if a valve was only partially open (through operator laziness of not fully opening it) then would you to close it to see if it was open or not? That could result in a divers gas being turned off inadvertently. Which is impossible if a valve is fully open back quarter turn. Transpose that train of thought to all valves and you have a standard operating procedure for all types valves which can minimise incidents and accidents in general not just diving, submarines etc etc. How a diver can turn anothers cylinder off as mentioned during a predive check is precisely a reason for having fully open back 1/4 turn. Which is one of the final checks commercial diver tenders will do on a divers bailout before he enters the water. So fully open back quarter turn is best practice and if an instructor as you said was teaching it was because of valve sticking shows his inexperience of why best practice came about, another words he's guessing.
Have to agree with Ray. With the valve turned back a little it's easy for anyone to check the valve is open because they will feel it turn a little and hit the stop. If the valve is fully opened then to check you'd have to close the valve slightly and then reopen. Also it the valve was turned off hard someone could assume that it was open just because they couldn't turn it easily.
Glad to hear from another commercial diver Ray. We both know commercial divers are much smarter, more safety conscious and prettier than recreational divers! This point is primarily for rec divers who don't know clockwise vs counter clockwise or left loose, right tight, etc. On almost every training dive, fun dive and trip, someone has had air off not on. Kevin had his turned off by a boat DM just before jumping off, its ok he floats. Seriously though turn backs are not needed, but a carry over from when they were used. Divers like you have different rules, gear and practices (like carrying fins), but if they work for you, everyone knows and follows them, you are very lucky. As for the others, I have seen it cause more problems than it solved. Thanks for the feedback and dive safe.
Thanks for posting this Alec..I'm glad that I now have the explanation for why, long ago the valve was to be turned back 1/4 turn after opening.. I was certified in 2002, and later when I asked more experienced Divers, the reason for it, no one could give me a logical explanation for this practice. Having worked as a mechanical maintainer in Nuclear plants and having taken Hydraulic & Pneumatics courses through the Millwrights union I have seen the inside of lots of valves, and I can tell you that turning a valve back 1/4 turn after opening if you want full flow, is not standard practice anywhere. I never did this while diving, and after finding my air off once, after some "helpful" person turned it off, I tell people not to touch my gear after I set it up. It's a good thing I had already put lots of air in my BC before I stepped off the dock.
@@feedbak007 I can say for sure that HSE commercial divers in the North Sea and world over it is 'standard practice' for a bailout bottle to be turned back a 1/4 turn and as it's HP will make zero effect on volume required at HP. That's not to confuse turning a valve handle 1/4 turn back on a quarter turn valve on industrial pipework as the handle indicates whether it's open or not. Commercial divers have a bell partner or tender and it's not only 'standard practice' but 'good practice' to turn a bailout bottle back a quarter turn for the reasons given. 1. A quick and easy check confirms that the valve is open, it takes a slight turn of the wrist to confirm it's open. 2. It stops gorilla type divers with neanderthal hands trying to open a valve when it's already open, and that stops the plastic valve handles being damaged and also stops the valve spindle being damaged. 3. There's no chance of the divers gas being off when it should be on. Maybe US diver training is different but I doubt that commercially because I've worked with many, in fact one was in the inflatable that was the Seal recovery team for Apollo 11 before he later went commercial. I can't for the life of me see how a divers bottle can be turned off, my first dive was in 1992 and it has never happened......but I can see how it could if some organisations change standard practice from 'fully open and back a touch', how difficult is that? Problem is differing standards between organisations can cause confusion, and if something as simple as opening a dive bottle the correct way cannot be agreed then you can see the can of worms opening for equally important procedures. SOP.
seeing all the comments, quite a debatable topic. between fully open and 1/4 back turn, I choose somewhere in between. I tell new divers to turn 1/8 back or 1-2cm turn back. 1st is to prevent it getting stuck. 2nd is not getting confuced when checking.
I'm not sure it was purely temperature / expansion that made the old pillar valve jam? Modern valves do not carry the pressure loads in the valve shuttle, but directly on the knob shaft (ooh er!!) They have a small diameter shaft, sealed with an O ring, that runs on a "slippy" nylon or teflon disc. The small diameter keeps the axial loads fairly small (6mm shaft at 230 bar is a thrust load of 650N) and the low friction between the stainless shaft and the teflon disc means that thrust load is reacted without excessive torsional friction, ie it's easy to turn the shaft even with the pressure load on. And because the shuttle is not carrying the pressure load when open, it's threads have hardly any force on them, so not much friction there either. And when you shut the valve, the shuttle blocks the passage to the cylinder, but the upstream pressure is not released from behind the shuttle until the system is purged and the 1st stage removed, so it's really easy to close even against a full cylinder at high pressure!
Your a fountain of knowledge Max. Having dive the first pillar valves in cold Canada waters, I have seen them freeze both open and closed. Then muscles are used to 'motivate' the valve to change its current position with damaging effect. It was a necessary work around in the 1960's, its not truly needed today. Appreciate the feedback Max.
One reason why this is specifically no longer taught with the Dutch Subaqua Federation is that when you accidentally close the valve all the way and then open it a quarter turn, it breathes just fine at the surface. But at depth, the flow of the valve won't be enough to deliver sufficient air once the tank pressure drops a little. One example given was a person that had an out of air emergency at depth with 150bar left in the tank. But it's a topic that's always sure to spark debate, so I don't make a point of it. As long as people keep their hands off my valves, please :-)
I have been in the exact situation! Buddy check on surface all ok, when we where at depth and when ik took a breath the needle on the pressure gauge dropped. Took the safe second from my buddy and he checked my valves. He opened the valve fully and I tested with a air purge on my second stage and the pressure kept stable. After learning from this I stopped closing my valve a bit and tell my buddy's to not touch my valve. Great learning lesson :)
Scuba tanks and tank valves have no stated maximum depth as it is far beyond human diving limits. Din fittings are by tank working pressure, 3,000 psi is 5 threads and 3442 psi are 7 threads (7/8"-14 UNF specs). Hope this helps. A
I personally don´t care what they teach. I was recently diving with a new certified friend and rental tanks. So I tried to be a good buddy and we did the buddy check. He told me, my tank is quarter turn back, I told him, that´s how I want it. He told me that he learned different... full open. I told him, whatever fits his needs is fine with me, I have mine a quarter back. (I do the same at home with my water or gas-stove, never had an issue in my 50 years) As it happened, he could not close his tank after the dive. (80cft aluminum tank, Thermo valve). Had to purge 80 bar to get his reg off the tank for the next dive. I guess that is very unlikely to happen, maybe bad maintenance, even we never had an issue with this shop, , but it did happened to him on his 10th dive or so. His 11th (and counting towards 100 now) were with a quarter turn back... Yes, Sir Alec, I fully believe you that it is technically (theoretically) not needed, but real life showed me, the difference between theory and praxis. Anyway, thanks for that great channel. spent many hours watching learned a lot, and will probably spend many hours more. God Bless and cheers from the Philippines.
As long as both divers are in agreement on how each wants their tanks opened, have fun. It's when 'assumptions' are applied that problems happen. Thanks for sharing this experience DM.
I know this is an old comment but the reason to specifically not have a 1/4 turn back is that both on with a 1/4 back and off with a 1/4 forward are breathable at the surface. If you or someone else uses the valve and accidentally twists it the wrong way and then a 1/4 on your regs and inflator will still work fine. Once you descend the increased flow required won't be available and you will struggle or be unable to breathe or inflate. The possibility of a stuck valve, even though there's no reason that full on would cause it, is nothing compared to an underwater emergency and an effective out of air scenario.
@@Washo1903 well I have roughly 4.000 dives. never had a issue with a quarter turn. but did have issues with full open. of other divers. there is not even the slightest question in my mind what I go with If one does not know what direction is on and off, they should not dive, and practice at the faucet at home or a cola bottle, until they are ready to use their knowledge with compressed air for scuba.
I would be more worried about someone who does not know which way is counter clockwise. They can not even handle how to put in a screw if they were that dumb. I would not trust them.
The reason i heard was that new studens that doesnt know wich way close.. if you open to the end.. when they want to close it they dont remember wich way and turn as hard as they can the wrong way..
This is not uncommon, in many fields when technology changes practices don't change with them. The biggest example that comes to mind is keeping firearms "cruiser ready." Shotguns are (generally) not drop safe meaning dropping the weapon could cause it to discharge so it became best practice to keep a full magazine but an empty chamber. When police departments switched to AR-15s (which are drop safe) they kept the old policy of keeping them "cruiser ready" with a full mag and empty chamber just out of habit.
The real proof that police do not know how to handle a gun is they need more than one bullet to kill. The DC police took out the bitch with 1 shot. They do not need an AR15 to do their job since they have proper training unlike the police.
There are many scuba myths, or practices, still in use today that back in the stone age were a necessity. However, better products, training and materials have eliminated quite a few (buddy breathing), but some old practices still exist with no logic to them. Dive safe my friend.
When opening the valve, when you come to the stop, gentle leave it in that position. What happens is many people crank it open coming to a hard "stop" which eventually will wear the internal brass parts. I don't feel opening fully and a 1/4 turn back is harmful as long as you don't crank it hard to that stop. We all want our gear to last...this is sort of a low priority habit since 99% of divers do this.
I teach the 2 finger technique. Open it using only 2 fingers and when it stops, you stop. No stress on the internals but you know its all open. Thanks Bruce.
When it comes to safety equipment, and scuba tanks/valves are safety equip, keep you hands OFF my gear. And DON'T touch others peoples gear. As far as non-indicating valves, like SCBA, SCUBA, fire hydrants, it is prudent to turn the valve a 1/4 turn back after fully open. Bottom line, don't be a valve turning monkey...know why you are doing it. If it's how you were trained, rock on!
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter I agree with Steve, Alec; I sail a lot and when I sail trained, in the military, it was drummed into us to back off 1/4 turn for gas safety on board, especially for novice crews who'd likely be using the galley on long passages. They had an incident where a skipper lost a leg in an onboard gas explosion after a stove rubber hose fitting leaked overnight and the gas was still on at the bottle. The enquiry found that a trainee had turned the knob, it was stiff, so he/she assumed it was off. After that they introduced the 1/4 turn rule, in addition to lighting the stove after the bottle was turned off. This ensured that the gas truly was off and that the lines were purged of gas. It was so drummed into me that that I always do this on my scuba tank - loose means on, and if I'm not sure I'll open then close 1/4 turn. As also said in alater reply, it also stops someone from forcing the valve thinking it's closed.
Completely disagree with this video and it's asking for dangerous situations. Turning back is really practical under water, especially for beginners. There're sooo many adults who don't even know which way to turn to close/open a valve. This small habit can be a life saver under water, especially during stressfull moments.
I will put my 50 years of diving, instructing and store ownership on and stick with my believe to NOT turn tank valves back. Using 3 fingers is all the effort to leave a valve fully open. As for not knowing open/close, add a valve indictor like the Vindicator valves for visual confirmation of open/close. A
I was open water certified this summer and was taught the turn back method. This is still going around strong. There are a couple types of people that swear by the turnback method one for the mechanical wear and tear, The other safety concerns if someone would turn it all the way the other way accidentally shutting it off when they do a buddy or safety check.. DAN also recommends opening all the way based on the mechanical facts and statistics. Alec is on the popular side of this debate.
If it was only so easy for everyone, there would be no need for buddy checks, air checks or reminding dives they have their fins and masks before leaving the dock. The air indicator is a clear and easy to understand air indicator to prevent DM's or others accidentally turning it off. Considering the amount of money we divers spend on toys, this is actually a good and useful item.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter People so dumb or lazy to manually check if their air is on right before jumping in the water shouldn't be diving in the first place. Here in Asia, I've never seen or heard of such a ridiculous piece of scuba gear.
Hi Alec Thanks so much for your detailed videos over the years. I recommend them to my students depending on what course i'm teaching. I have emailed you regarding nitrox systems. (alec@thewindmillranch.com) was the email I wrote too Regards Deano
As a commercial oilfield diver of 46 years and a situation diver trainer I 100% disagree with this nonsense video. How many times have any if us tried to open a valve which appears stuck tight? You give it hell until you realise the damn thing was already open 😡 To avoid this confusion - and possible valve damage - simply open all the way then go back a 1/4 turn. It will not lessen the flow of air but you will know immediately the status of the valve as soon as you operate it. Trust me, I really know my shit when it comes to diving 👍
For commercial diving with one diver and multiple support staff, but recreational diving, leave it fully open. Read the comments rec divers have about problems when using a 1/4 turn back. Trust me from a 50+ year rec diver, it's not worth it. Thats why visual indicators like the Vindicator are a big help. Thanks for the feedback. A
I have had someone check a if valve was open, it wouldn't turn anticlockwise, so he assumed it was fully open. It was actually tight shut, but this was picked up in pre-dive checks. Whatever the original mechanical reason, I always turn it back a smidge from full open just so it's obvious.
I knew a new diver who had no idea what turning the knob 'anti-clock wise' meant, having only seen digital watches!!! Thanks for watching Tim.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter The proper term is counter clockwise not the improper term anti-clockwise Tim Gosling used
Well, I buy your logic about the old valves, however; I always turn mine back a bit so that I know instantly whether it is open. If it moves a bit counter clockwise and stops, it is open. Some people close the valve so tightly that if you try it counter clockwise and it doesn't want to turn, it must be open which is the wrong answer. If you open and then turn it back a bit, I don't see any down side especially when you do your SPG breath test before diving. Oh, and just for fun, if you check your dual bathroom taps, one goes clockwise and one goes counter clockwise to open. All in good fun; always enjoy your videos.
Good points Barry but let me share this story again. I trained a young, new diver and when told to open the tank valve by turning the knob counter-clockwise he asked, what is that? Kid had not seen a 'analog' clock only digital his entire life. Back to righty tighty, lefty loosey. Also for taps, many are now single handle joy stick types. My grand kids think my dual taps are cool!
I use only 1/8th or 1/16th, but always shut it all the way off, it make for a quicker double checking as to the state by feel alone. It has nothing to do with their outdated reasons.
I've had an emergency with a diver who did this. The guide had opened the valve, unknown to them. Then they "opened" it, effectively closing it, because some people have a hard time with left and right. They 'closed' it a quarter turn, effectively opening it. Drawing a test breath on the surface showed her everything was OK, the gauge showed no issues, but still she got into trouble at 30m.
She had trouble drawing breath and her gauge went to zero on each breath, then went back up. She nearly panicked because she couldn't breathe until I shared my air and we called the dive. Obviously in hindsight the almost closed valve opening didn't have the throughput at 30m for 4 times the air volume.
It's one of those things that you think will never happen to you but it's easily preventable. fully open or close your valve. You'll notice it's closed before you hit the water even if you do an incomplete buddy check (as is common on vacation).
This is the very reason Tech divers learn to fully open and close. You can't accidentally dive with a closed valve.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter This one kid not knowing the terms cw and ccw has nothing to do with the topic. That guy would definitely still notice if the valve moves easily in both directions and hits a hard stop in one of them after a small fraction of a turn (like 1/16) and then he'd think "okay it's open" - IF you had taught him the correct way. That would definitely help him.
I don't mean to offend you in any way, but any decent instructor would have drilled into him the directions in which you open or close valves if they were training that guy and had noticed his problem. I actually can't even get my head around the fact that you really seem to believe this nonsense answer to be a valid argument.
Your "turn it till the end if you don't know cw from ccw" will definitely not let him know if it's open or shut until he confirms it another way, like not turning it (or turning it till the end) and then trying to take a breath from the reg or pushing the purge button to check (which you should always do anyway, I tend to check the valve and my air like another 3-4 times right before putting on the BC, while doing the buddy check and right before entering the water). What you are trying to teach here in this instance actually CAUSES or at least provokes people who are bad with directions closing it shut - as has been proven 100% by what that other guy (Mic feedbak) experienced.
We teach the students to turn the knob a quarter way back to prevent it from being broken by the person who would be checking and might think it is closed tightly and try to force open it, resulting in a knob or stem damage. That is the only reason. Therefore, it is not really a myth.
P.S. Vindicator knobs are good and helpful.
I have never seen that happen.
@@GinEric84 it does happen, I have fixed several broken valves because of that - usually the stem inside is square and it gets rounded up - need to replace it, easy fix :)
you are right sir, i am retyred navy technician and this go's for all kind of valves ,this procedure is the safe way to avoid mistakes and broken valves.
@@Tegneaufreak Excuse me, the valve is open, and turning it a quarter way back does not make it closed. You have to give it several turns to shut down. Therefore, in which way do I endanger my student's life?
@Fluffy Hamster I absolutely with you on that point. This is a nice useful habit and it is proven by years of diving.
I used to open the valve all the way until the handle stopped and the leave it there. Once diving in FL, there was some chop and I was on the platform getting ready to enter the water and the Divemaster grabbed hold of me to keep me steady as I put on my second fin. What I didn’t know was that he also grabbed my valve and, feeling it was fully turned, assumed it was closed, so as he had ahold of me, he unknowingly shut off my air. I didn’t realize he had touched my valve until I did my giant stride and got down a few feet. Luckily I set my tank high enough so I can reach back and grab the valve if needed, and I definitely needed it then.
A lot of things wrong happened there, both on my end and the divemaster’s end. Now, I fully open the valve, then turn it back a bit. If you can rotate the handle both directions, the air is on. I also always triple check my air before my giant stride, even after we’ve already double checked our air in our buddy check.
Appreciate you sharing the experience. Every dive agency teaches pre-dive checks but once on a boat others, like the DM, get involved. Wish more locations used a Vindicator to show true on/off to prevent no-air dives! Thanks for watching Casey.
Mr. Peirce, i am just now getting into diving and I just wanted to extend my thanks to you and everyone that helps make the videos. I have learned so much and really enjoy learning from you. Thank you for taking your time to share your knowledge and experiences. Please keep them coming and know ill be watching! God Bless sir!
I very much appreciate your feedback Taylor. My plan is to continue making these as long as its fun and viewers want them. There are lots of scuba channels and glad you like my efforts.
....old school here Alec, tried and tested 1/2 a turn back for me in other things aswell , including water stop taps, boat sea cocks I have come across left hand thread shut off valves and that part turn movement lets you know it's not a seized or locked or over tightened component...............
If its only your items, you know about it and depend on it. Add in a buddy (sometimes a stranger), it gets complicated. From a mechanical view, its totally not needed. Thanks for watching.
Hi Alec, thanks for providing the background to this myth, much appreciated.
It annoys me when someone on the boat checks my tank valve and turns it back a quarter, and when asked why they don't know other than that's what they were taught.
I have a few tanks with Vindicator knobs, very useful.
We have fantastic modern gear but habits from the 1950's and 1960's still exist worldwide. Thanks for watching.
I agree, there were some accidents because some people did not open the valve completely.
Back in the stone age years of diving, the 1950's to 1980's, 1/4 back was needed due to the internal 1st stage parts tending to lock up. Today, there is no reason for any turn back. Use 3 fingers to open until it stops fully open.
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I have two dives left for my Open Water, and this is still taught. I asked my instructor why, and he admitted it wasn't necessary anymore, but that's how the agency wants it trained. I have not been closing a quarter turn, nor do I plan to.
There is lots more here to make your dive safer and more fun. Enjoy and welcome to the scuba world.
Thank you for explaining the purpose for this in the past and why it is no longer needful... very informative.
You're very welcome
Perfectly explained and straight to the point.
Good video
That's how I like it.
Great video, have been watching all of your videos from years back. So many great tips and knowledge for me as someone who is soon moving to Florida and want to get scuba certified
Glad you like them! Florida will give you lots of diving experience. Hope my ideas and tips make your diving fun and safer.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter thank you. Can’t wait for more content👍🏽 keep up the great work
I personally have been taught to close a valve quarter turn even before I started scuba diving - that's exactly the way you operate valves on a ship (not only for compressed air, also for water, fuel, oil, steam, etc). You do it this way so that it's easy to check if the valve is open or not. When it's at a terminal position (fully open or fully closed) it will take a bit of effort to move, when it's turned back just a bit it's loose and easy to move and if you really want to make sure then it takes a quarter turn to the left to check. That's how you immediately know if a valve is open or closed, so I never really questioned why it's being taught this way as I assumed that's for the same reason. I don't really see harm in doing so too.
Like many dive gear changes over the years, the initial reason for the turn back was no longer needed, just still taught. As for no harm, will Kevin has twice had DM's turning his air OFF not on due to the turn back. He switched to Vindicator valves (see my video on them), with no problems since. Take care a stay safe Hunter.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter I really am at a loss of words for the DM, I don't think I'll ever understand how you can make such a mistake, especially that it is that dangerous. Stay safe.
Righty tighty lefty loosey. Thanks for the vid. Just getting back in after about 7yrs out. Cert in 99 so a lot has changed for me and tips like this are very handy
Glad to have you back in the water Terry.
That "Righty tighty lefty loosey" is one of the dumbest expressions ever! I make no damn sense of any kind! Nothing is going right or left, it is all rotating at once. People are just morons! Anyone who has done ANY plumbing know it is utter crap. One wrench goes clockwise while the other goes counterclockwise no F'g rights or lefts involved. In mechanics a bolt goes in the opposite rotation of a nut on the other side. It is pure BS.
@@toriless wow ?? mate if you don’t like a comment you can feel free to simply take a breath and move on by ... not hard !! The term is used by a lot of people who may not have the NASA level of plumbing experience that you clearly have ?? I don’t know ?! It clearly refers to looking directly “at” the item and turning it “right” or clockwise to tighten and turning “left” or anti clockwise loosen. I know you make no sense of it so I thought I’d explain. Again, no need to have commented unless you’re one of these people that has nothing better to do than troll comments and give people a serve for things you don’t like. If so .... that’s sad. Have a nice day
Thanks for the history and info. I too had been taught (scuba and fire dept) to turn back a quarter, and have taught it for years. Now we teach to open all the way and when it stops, just to back it loose; slight finger roll back. Mostly so people dont think it's stuck closed and try to crank the valve knob off. But it's not near the quater back that we had been doing. It's interesting to read everyone's take on this though. Definitely a long running idea for all types of valves and a passionate subject for some.
Oh yes, lots of comments on this subject from divers of every age and experience. Thanks for sharing Brian.
Thank you for this video. I found myself on the wrong side of the argument for the “stale air” video you made a while back. Someone showed me your video and showed me “the light”
Great to hear you have entered the light. Lots to learn and laugh about with me.
I have a one experience that could indicate why turning the valve a quarter can be a good practice:
I was working in a laboratory that used a lot of compressed gasses. Back there I had an instrument that practically only I was using. One morning I came to work and started to put up the system (booting computers, turning on power, turning off heating and turning on gasses). I grabbed the valve knob on a CO2 cylinder and twisted counterclockwise. It didn't budge. Instinctively I twisted a little harder and it still wouldn't move. I started thinking I couldn't recall the valve having got stuck ever before. Only then it occurred to me that the valve was already fully open. And sure enough, late the night before that morning someone else had used the instrument and had forgot to close the cylinder valve.
I don't know, but intuitively it would sound reasonable, that maybe valves can get injured if they are forcibly twisted when at either extreme position? So I did reasoning that, when you are doing a buddy check on your dive partner, you try their tank valve by turning it open. When you do so and it stops after quarter turn, you know it's open and don't misinterpret it to think that the valve is stuck.
Thanks for sharing your valve open story. With todays scuba tank valves. no need for the back turn. Just open with 2 fingers is all the force needed. Also many makers are adding Vindicator indicators to tanks for visual confirmation.
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Had a cave diving partner using new doubles with sizeable rubber valves. Unknowingly as we swam through low passage, his valves were hitting the ceiling and closing. He noticed breathing getting hard, and his gauge plunged with each breath. After a brief panic I calmed him down and opened the vales, we exited the dive. He replaced those rubber valves with small metal ones asap!
That is a new one. Thanks for sharing and the safe ending.
That's the reasoning for the primary coming off the right post - the rolling motion of ceiling contact will open the valve not close it
I remember those times, I remember the 1/4 turn back, ooh and the j valves, no BCD's
Now as an instructor, your absolutely right updating our selves is a serious responsibility.
We have too. New divers are smart, ask 'why' and the reasons need to be based on today's reality, not the 1960's. Glad you like it.
Many thanks for explaining why it was relevant and why it is no longer the case
Welcome Gil. Lots more information to come.
I was one of those divers in the early 70's who turned the valve back a slite turn to open the air flow. Thanks 😊 for the memories.
Correction. [After I opened the air to full open].
We all were back in the stone age days Ron. Thanks for watching.
4:02 "Lefty loosey righty tighty" applies here too. Same as with bolts (it's literally a bolt). Loose = let the air loose. Tight = constrict it.
It does. First thing men learn apparently.
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I always take a breath after someone checks my valve and watch my spg go down and spring back up if not then someone shut my tank off.
exactly. Don't rely on anyone to keep you safe/alive
A good test before jumping off the boat. Kevin told me of his dive buddy checks and sucking in a dry reg as he left the boat! Good thing his BC was full!
It is best to have the reg already in your mouth and be breathing on it before entering the water, even for some shore entries.
technical informations = knowledge to know what you're doing. good diver, aware diver
So true. Back in my day my new 57'Buick owners manual told me how to adjust the spark plug points, today's manuals say don't drink the battery fluid!
I was a volunteer firefighter for 7 or 8 years, well even we learned to close them a quarter. Because they could jam, so we close them always a little bit.
The original reason for the 1/2 turn back was absolutely valid, in the 1950's to 1970's. Modern tank valves don't have the parts jamming problem but divers continue to follow what they were taught. Hope it opened your eyes to old practices still followed today. Thanks for watching Ben.
agree with the old and the new valves and how they work, however the 1/4 turn back is still very relevant but for different reasons. AND this is why. in my experience, when i have fully opened the valve, and helpers on the boat or even on shore double check that valves are opened have in some instances tried opening and already open valve, and ended up stripping the valve because it felt like it was closed, if the valve was 1/4 turned back, they would have felt the difference and would not have forced the open valve to the point of stripping the valve, so not bad practice to be honest.
You must dive with really strong DM's and staff. My three fingers of force to lock open is all I use. Some super macho he-man gorillas thing really tightly open is better than just 3 fingers. They strip valves and cost the diver and shop unnessessary maintenance.
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I always wondered if this was a something that persisted through many generations but nobody ACTUALLY remembers WHY it is being done.
Old Joke : I noticed my wife cutting the end off the roast before cooking it. Asked her why. She said her mother did it. Her mother said HER mother did it. Asked her great grandmother and she said ... Oh, I had a short roasting pot for my small oven.
Another example : Pressing the accelerator to the floor before starting a car. Why? Well in the carburetor days it set the choke. With fuel injection it was no longer necessary but people knew "you have to do it" without knowing why.
I remember those old ways too especially pressing the gas once to start. We have lived through a lot so this is my way of educating those who have no idea why somethings are done this way. Appreciate the stories my friend.
It also injects a small amount of fuel but that is only useful when it is cold. I have a hybrid. I just push a button, it will start the engine when it needs more energy. No dead batteries, even if I do not drive it for a long time like these days.
excellent vulgarization.
myths always come from lack of knowledge, it is one of the reason why I'm an advocate of a solid technical instruction of the future divers.
somebody that knows in depth his equipment have much better chances to stay calm and find a solution than somebody that does just knows how to operate it.
It is why the astronauts are much more than pilots, they know in detail the design of their space vehicules.
Thank you Jacques, glad you like these.
Mmmmm? Have to disagree on this one, as a commercial diver I was trained that standard operating procedure was fully open back quarter turn, not for the reason of valve protection but for consistent safety procedure, i.e if a valve is already fully open, then confirming it's fully open would only take a 1/4 turn counter clockwise and no harm done because it's already fully open, whereas if a valve was only partially open (through operator laziness of not fully opening it) then would you to close it to see if it was open or not? That could result in a divers gas being turned off inadvertently. Which is impossible if a valve is fully open back quarter turn. Transpose that train of thought to all valves and you have a standard operating procedure for all types valves which can minimise incidents and accidents in general not just diving, submarines etc etc. How a diver can turn anothers cylinder off as mentioned during a predive check is precisely a reason for having fully open back 1/4 turn. Which is one of the final checks commercial diver tenders will do on a divers bailout before he enters the water. So fully open back quarter turn is best practice and if an instructor as you said was teaching it was because of valve sticking shows his inexperience of why best practice came about, another words he's guessing.
Have to agree with Ray. With the valve turned back a little it's easy for anyone to check the valve is open because they will feel it turn a little and hit the stop. If the valve is fully opened then to check you'd have to close the valve slightly and then reopen. Also it the valve was turned off hard someone could assume that it was open just because they couldn't turn it easily.
Glad to hear from another commercial diver Ray. We both know commercial divers are much smarter, more safety conscious and prettier than recreational divers! This point is primarily for rec divers who don't know clockwise vs counter clockwise or left loose, right tight, etc. On almost every training dive, fun dive and trip, someone has had air off not on. Kevin had his turned off by a boat DM just before jumping off, its ok he floats. Seriously though turn backs are not needed, but a carry over from when they were used. Divers like you have different rules, gear and practices (like carrying fins), but if they work for you, everyone knows and follows them, you are very lucky. As for the others, I have seen it cause more problems than it solved. Thanks for the feedback and dive safe.
Thanks for posting this Alec..I'm glad that I now have the explanation for why, long ago the valve was to be turned back 1/4 turn after opening.. I was certified in 2002, and later when I asked more experienced Divers, the reason for it, no one could give me a logical explanation for this practice. Having worked as a mechanical maintainer in Nuclear plants and having taken Hydraulic & Pneumatics courses through the Millwrights union I have seen the inside of lots of valves, and I can tell you that turning a valve back 1/4 turn after opening if you want full flow, is not standard practice anywhere. I never did this while diving, and after finding my air off once, after some "helpful" person turned it off, I tell people not to touch my gear after I set it up. It's a good thing I had already put lots of air in my BC before I stepped off the dock.
"Lefty Loosey - Righty Tighty" Like the lid on a jar or, as Alec said, a tap.
@@feedbak007 I can say for sure that HSE commercial divers in the North Sea and world over it is 'standard practice' for a bailout bottle to be turned back a 1/4 turn and as it's HP will make zero effect on volume required at HP. That's not to confuse turning a valve handle 1/4 turn back on a quarter turn valve on industrial pipework as the handle indicates whether it's open or not. Commercial divers have a bell partner or tender and it's not only 'standard practice' but 'good practice' to turn a bailout bottle back a quarter turn for the reasons given. 1. A quick and easy check confirms that the valve is open, it takes a slight turn of the wrist to confirm it's open.
2. It stops gorilla type divers with neanderthal hands trying to open a valve when it's already open, and that stops the plastic valve handles being damaged and also stops the valve spindle being damaged.
3. There's no chance of the divers gas being off when it should be on.
Maybe US diver training is different but I doubt that commercially because I've worked with many, in fact one was in the inflatable that was the Seal recovery team for Apollo 11 before he later went commercial.
I can't for the life of me see how a divers bottle can be turned off, my first dive was in 1992 and it has never happened......but I can see how it could if some organisations change standard practice from 'fully open and back a touch', how difficult is that?
Problem is differing standards between organisations can cause confusion, and if something as simple as opening a dive bottle the correct way cannot be agreed then you can see the can of worms opening for equally important procedures. SOP.
Brilliant explanation, thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks for the kind explanation.
You are welcome!
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seeing all the comments, quite a debatable topic. between fully open and 1/4 back turn, I choose somewhere in between. I tell new divers to turn 1/8 back or 1-2cm turn back. 1st is to prevent it getting stuck. 2nd is not getting confuced when checking.
My point is there is no need for turn back in todays valves. Three fingers turning until it stopped and done.
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I'm not sure it was purely temperature / expansion that made the old pillar valve jam? Modern valves do not carry the pressure loads in the valve shuttle, but directly on the knob shaft (ooh er!!) They have a small diameter shaft, sealed with an O ring, that runs on a "slippy" nylon or teflon disc. The small diameter keeps the axial loads fairly small (6mm shaft at 230 bar is a thrust load of 650N) and the low friction between the stainless shaft and the teflon disc means that thrust load is reacted without excessive torsional friction, ie it's easy to turn the shaft even with the pressure load on. And because the shuttle is not carrying the pressure load when open, it's threads have hardly any force on them, so not much friction there either. And when you shut the valve, the shuttle blocks the passage to the cylinder, but the upstream pressure is not released from behind the shuttle until the system is purged and the 1st stage removed, so it's really easy to close even against a full cylinder at high pressure!
sorry I fell asleep...could you please repeat that?
Your a fountain of knowledge Max. Having dive the first pillar valves in cold Canada waters, I have seen them freeze both open and closed. Then muscles are used to 'motivate' the valve to change its current position with damaging effect. It was a necessary work around in the 1960's, its not truly needed today. Appreciate the feedback Max.
Good info. I've heard this before... myth busted (on modern equipment). Thanks! =]
You bet!
As always, great vid. Hey has Kevin ever been on the other side of the camera?
He tried once but there is no fish-eye lens wide enough to get him all in!! He has a face only for radio (his words).
One reason why this is specifically no longer taught with the Dutch Subaqua Federation is that when you accidentally close the valve all the way and then open it a quarter turn, it breathes just fine at the surface. But at depth, the flow of the valve won't be enough to deliver sufficient air once the tank pressure drops a little. One example given was a person that had an out of air emergency at depth with 150bar left in the tank. But it's a topic that's always sure to spark debate, so I don't make a point of it. As long as people keep their hands off my valves, please :-)
As buddies, agree on each others preference for opening. Thanks for sharing this example Ron.
I have been in the exact situation! Buddy check on surface all ok, when we where at depth and when ik took a breath the needle on the pressure gauge dropped. Took the safe second from my buddy and he checked my valves. He opened the valve fully and I tested with a air purge on my second stage and the pressure kept stable. After learning from this I stopped closing my valve a bit and tell my buddy's to not touch my valve. Great learning lesson :)
This is pretty interesting stuff.
Thanks Rick. Stay safe.
Great video
Glad you enjoyed it
Hi alec what is the depth of a new 3442 steel 100 cu ft din valve are all the new tanks din fittings 5 or 7 threads deep thanks
Scuba tanks and tank valves have no stated maximum depth as it is far beyond human diving limits. Din fittings are by tank working pressure, 3,000 psi is 5 threads and 3442 psi are 7 threads (7/8"-14 UNF specs). Hope this helps.
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@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter Thanks again Alec
It's especially bad to turn the valve back when closing the tank!
Ha for sure.
I personally don´t care what they teach.
I was recently diving with a new certified friend and rental tanks. So I tried to be a good buddy and we did the buddy check.
He told me, my tank is quarter turn back, I told him, that´s how I want it.
He told me that he learned different... full open. I told him, whatever fits his needs is fine with me, I have mine a quarter back. (I do the same at home with my water or gas-stove, never had an issue in my 50 years)
As it happened, he could not close his tank after the dive. (80cft aluminum tank, Thermo valve). Had to purge 80 bar to get his reg off the tank for the next dive.
I guess that is very unlikely to happen, maybe bad maintenance, even we never had an issue with this shop, , but it did happened to him on his 10th dive or so. His 11th (and counting towards 100 now) were with a quarter turn back...
Yes, Sir Alec, I fully believe you that it is technically (theoretically) not needed, but real life showed me, the difference between theory and praxis.
Anyway, thanks for that great channel. spent many hours watching learned a lot, and will probably spend many hours more.
God Bless and cheers from the Philippines.
As long as both divers are in agreement on how each wants their tanks opened, have fun. It's when 'assumptions' are applied that problems happen. Thanks for sharing this experience DM.
I know this is an old comment but the reason to specifically not have a 1/4 turn back is that both on with a 1/4 back and off with a 1/4 forward are breathable at the surface. If you or someone else uses the valve and accidentally twists it the wrong way and then a 1/4 on your regs and inflator will still work fine. Once you descend the increased flow required won't be available and you will struggle or be unable to breathe or inflate. The possibility of a stuck valve, even though there's no reason that full on would cause it, is nothing compared to an underwater emergency and an effective out of air scenario.
@@Washo1903 well I have roughly 4.000 dives. never had a issue with a quarter turn. but did have issues with full open. of other divers. there is not even the slightest question in my mind what I go with
If one does not know what direction is on and off, they should not dive, and practice at the faucet at home or a cola bottle, until they are ready to use their knowledge with compressed air for scuba.
it may not be needed but its good practise
I think so too.
Excellent!
Glad you liked it!
Break the arm of anyone touching my SCUBA gear. HANDS OFF!!!
Today it's all 'please don't tough', back in the stone age that 10" chrome steel dive knife had a purpose above the water too.
I would be interested in learning how early divers achieved neutral bouyancy before the invention of the BCD.
Go to my Vintage Scuba channel and watch S07E10 Buoyancy Control In The Stone Age. Hint: rocks were used.
geeez if someone needs that green on red off on their tank...maybe they shouldn't be diving. Or at the very least...not with you.
In a previous comment i mentioned a new/young diver with no idea what anti-clock wise meant as he had only used a digital watch.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter It happens. Do not let them around any tools like drills then. The all use the same idea, screws, plumbing, etc.
I would be more worried about someone who does not know which way is counter clockwise. They can not even handle how to put in a screw if they were that dumb. I would not trust them.
The reason i heard was that new studens that doesnt know wich way close.. if you open to the end.. when they want to close it they dont remember wich way and turn as hard as they can the wrong way..
That is true. Also clockwise and counter-clockwise is not generally understood as is; lefty loose, righty tight. We are so old school.
I got a new steel tank a year ago and it came with a vindicator on it now I know what to call that thing if anyone asks me about it.
They are a nice option for divers, simple and effective. Glad you like them Max.
This is not uncommon, in many fields when technology changes practices don't change with them.
The biggest example that comes to mind is keeping firearms "cruiser ready." Shotguns are (generally) not drop safe meaning dropping the weapon could cause it to discharge so it became best practice to keep a full magazine but an empty chamber.
When police departments switched to AR-15s (which are drop safe) they kept the old policy of keeping them "cruiser ready" with a full mag and empty chamber just out of habit.
As you say, it happens a lot when something changes and training is not changed (for new and veterans alike). Thanks for sharing Eric.
The real proof that police do not know how to handle a gun is they need more than one bullet to kill. The DC police took out the bitch with 1 shot. They do not need an AR15 to do their job since they have proper training unlike the police.
Thanks
Welcome
I did my OW in 2019 and they still teach the quarter turn back... Just saying.
There are many scuba myths, or practices, still in use today that back in the stone age were a necessity. However, better products, training and materials have eliminated quite a few (buddy breathing), but some old practices still exist with no logic to them. Dive safe my friend.
When opening the valve, when you come to the stop, gentle leave it in that position. What happens is many people crank it open coming to a hard "stop" which eventually will wear the internal brass parts. I don't feel opening fully and a 1/4 turn back is harmful as long as you don't crank it hard to that stop. We all want our gear to last...this is sort of a low priority habit since 99% of divers do this.
I teach the 2 finger technique. Open it using only 2 fingers and when it stops, you stop. No stress on the internals but you know its all open. Thanks Bruce.
Diving 4 dummies. LOL🦈
New students only know what they are shown and some instructors still say turn back 1/2.
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When it comes to safety equipment, and scuba tanks/valves are safety equip, keep you hands OFF my gear. And DON'T touch others peoples gear. As far as non-indicating valves, like SCBA, SCUBA, fire hydrants, it is prudent to turn the valve a 1/4 turn back after fully open. Bottom line, don't be a valve turning monkey...know why you are doing it. If it's how you were trained, rock on!
I'm no expert on surface air but the same should apply, no reason for 1/4 turn back. Just use light touch and open fully.
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@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter I agree with Steve, Alec; I sail a lot and when I sail trained, in the military, it was drummed into us to back off 1/4 turn for gas safety on board, especially for novice crews who'd likely be using the galley on long passages. They had an incident where a skipper lost a leg in an onboard gas explosion after a stove rubber hose fitting leaked overnight and the gas was still on at the bottle.
The enquiry found that a trainee had turned the knob, it was stiff, so he/she assumed it was off. After that they introduced the 1/4 turn rule, in addition to lighting the stove after the bottle was turned off. This ensured that the gas truly was off and that the lines were purged of gas. It was so drummed into me that that I always do this on my scuba tank - loose means on, and if I'm not sure I'll open then close 1/4 turn. As also said in alater reply, it also stops someone from forcing the valve thinking it's closed.
Big myth!!! Agreed
I know, I was there!
Completely disagree with this video and it's asking for dangerous situations. Turning back is really practical under water, especially for beginners. There're sooo many adults who don't even know which way to turn to close/open a valve. This small habit can be a life saver under water, especially during stressfull moments.
I will put my 50 years of diving, instructing and store ownership on and stick with my believe to NOT turn tank valves back. Using 3 fingers is all the effort to leave a valve fully open. As for not knowing open/close, add a valve indictor like the Vindicator valves for visual confirmation of open/close.
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I was open water certified this summer and was taught the turn back method. This is still going around strong. There are a couple types of people that swear by the turnback method one for the mechanical wear and tear, The other safety concerns if someone would turn it all the way the other way accidentally shutting it off when they do a buddy or safety check.. DAN also recommends opening all the way based on the mechanical facts and statistics. Alec is on the popular side of this debate.
Here we have some chinese made plastic low pressure water tap that opens clockwise. Pretty annoying.
Did not know that Bing.
Just freaking check that your air is on before putin' on the BC...easy peasy. No need for a $20 stupid plastic thingy to stick on one's valve!
If it was only so easy for everyone, there would be no need for buddy checks, air checks or reminding dives they have their fins and masks before leaving the dock. The air indicator is a clear and easy to understand air indicator to prevent DM's or others accidentally turning it off. Considering the amount of money we divers spend on toys, this is actually a good and useful item.
@@AlecPeirceScuba_SeaHunter People so dumb or lazy to manually check if their air is on right before jumping in the water shouldn't be diving in the first place. Here in Asia, I've never seen or heard of such a ridiculous piece of scuba gear.
Hi Alec
Thanks so much for your detailed videos over the years. I recommend them to my students depending on what course i'm teaching. I have emailed you regarding nitrox systems. (alec@thewindmillranch.com) was the email I wrote too
Regards
Deano
Thanks Deano, I'll look for it.
As a commercial oilfield diver of 46 years and a situation diver trainer I 100% disagree with this nonsense video.
How many times have any if us tried to open a valve which appears stuck tight? You give it hell until you realise the damn thing was already open 😡
To avoid this confusion - and possible valve damage - simply open all the way then go back a 1/4 turn. It will not lessen the flow of air but you will know immediately the status of the valve as soon as you operate it.
Trust me, I really know my shit when it comes to diving 👍
For commercial diving with one diver and multiple support staff, but recreational diving, leave it fully open. Read the comments rec divers have about problems when using a 1/4 turn back. Trust me from a 50+ year rec diver, it's not worth it. Thats why visual indicators like the Vindicator are a big help. Thanks for the feedback.
A
my point exactly, so lets agree with the new valve concept but the turn back after opening best practice its been for years