Alternative Starches: How to thicken sauces without flour
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- Опубліковано 18 лис 2019
- Corn, tapioca, arrowroot, rice, potato, xanthan gum - let's put all the thickening polysaccharides to the test! Thanks to Raycon for sponsoring this video. Go to BuyRaycon.com/ragusea to get an amazing Black Friday deal on Raycons!
- Навчання та стиль
Q: Why are you always talking about "the Brits"?
A: A few reasons. I am a long-time connoisseur of British cooking shows, in particular some old ones. (I'm binging "Floyd on Fish" at the moment.) I've also traveled through the U.K. quite a bit, and am an avid English/Scottish history buff. I'm interested and amused by the differences in our dialects, in particular as they relate to food. Also, the U.K. is (distant) second to the U.S. in the list of countries where my clicks originate, so I try to take care of that audience. I still feel guilty for how confused so many of you were by my broiler cookies video. But mostly I just do it now because it's become a running joke, and I love running jokes.
Q: I live in the U.K. and have never heard of "gravy browning." What are you talking about?
A: Gravy browning is a real thing, and (in the Anglophone world, at least) it is almost exclusively a British thing. Google "gravy browning" - all of the hits will be for British recipes and websites. Y'all own this one. But just because it's a British thing doesn't mean all of you use it. Most Americans don't say "y'all," and yet it remains a feature of American English, because pretty much only Americans say it. My sense is gravy browning is a very old-fashioned ingredient and is now quite passé. Maybe your grandmother used it. People who still cook like your grandmother did (i.e. Marco Pierre White) still use it. It's a common sight in the vintage BBC/ITV/Channel4 cooking shows I like to watch.
Q: Why didn't you talk about using butter/cream, egg yolks, gelatin or any of the other non-starch means of thickening sauces?
A: As the title indicates, this video is about alternative starches, not starch alternatives. While xanthan gum and agar are not technically starches, they are polysaccharides (like starch), so I figured I'd include them on that basis. Certainly there are lots of great ways to thicken sauces without starch, but this video was about starch, and being that it ballooned to almost 15 minutes long, I think I had enough to cover within those constraints! Also, I suppose I adhere to the more narrow definition of "gravy," which states that it is a sauce made of a meat-originating liquid thickened with starch, and gravy is on my mind because of the holidays.
Q: You said the texture of the xanthan gum sauce was the "same" after you heated it, but it looked thicker after you heated it. What's up with that?
A: Yeah, I should have been clearer about that. By "same," I was trying to say that the sauce didn't thin out when the sauce got hot, which is what starch-thickened sauces usually do. The sauce got a little thicker over that time because xanthan gum takes a few minutes to reach its maximum thickness. It was still actively thickening as I was doing the experiment. In my head, I was purely checking to see if it would thin when it got hot.
Q: Why didn't you pronounce words like "yuca" and "agar" they way we do in my country?
A: Pronunciation is a highly variable thing. Lots of people pronounce those two words the way that I did in the video. I have a pretty standard northeastern U.S. accent (though I currently live in the southeast), and I generally try to keep to that accent/dialect. I think when you start trying to imitate other people's accents in an effort to sound "authentic," you usually just sound like a douchebag (or, in my case, even more of a douchebag).
Q: Did you get a new camera?
A: A new lens - a macro. Where has it been all my life? Amazing. The only hitch I've run into is some pronounced focus breathing, but I actually like that - makes shots more dynamic. Non-sponsored link: www.adorama.com/car3518.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAws7uBRAkEiwAMlbZjkbDJvGQeFILY1H6AqW85FS1YrHnxtB-S8f1KaXlHlJe7wVKUJ-pWhoCJmgQAvD_BwE
Q: Why did you say "reputedly" so many times in this video?
A: I suppose a few reasons. I wanted to make it clear that these claims about how these starches behave are not things I have personally observed, and some of them are things that (to my knowledge) have not been scientifically investigated. They are simply things people say about the ingredients. In my original script, I varied my language more, using various synonyms. But I don't have any kind of teleprompter set-up; I memorize a couple lines of my script at a time, deliver them to camera, then repeat with the next few lines, and as a result the wording doesn't always come out perfect. I was particularly rushed making this video, so there are a few blemishes on it, "reputedly" being one of them.
Love you Adam! Thank you for your efforts in your videos! I made the vegetable soup for my family and it was damn good
Oh, and didn't the British ladies during world war 2 use gravy browning solution to paint 'stockings' on their legs? A kind of 1940's fake tan.
I'm glad I found out today it is caramel water. The idea of a slightly gravy aroma'd great grandma romancing my dashing young great grandad is unsettling.
Then again, she was a cook in a country house, so whatever did it for them...
Two fat ladies!
“””reputed”””
Everyone uses it in nl
I like that Adam is trying his best to get us prepped for Thanksgiving.
He's doing a pretty damn good job of it 😁
At least he's not skipping thanksgiving and doing christmas food
Nolan Gimpel wait, when thanksgiving for you guys?!
izabella may - Next week.
Jen Sanaa NEXT WEEK? THATS BASICALLY CHIRSTMAS
the child level visuals helped me more than i'd ever want to admit publicly. great video
I like how Adam is basically bringing Alton Brown's "Good Eats" show back to life. That show taught me everything about understanding the science behind cooking and cooking in general. Adam you're doing a great thing for the young folks!
same. I learned so much about cooking and food science from Alton. I love his recipes, and the various techniques he explained why to do or not to do something.
Hey Adam! I come from Malaysia, where Agar is a very common ingredient used in cooking. However, we don’t use it very much for savory dishes, it’s more of a dessert ingredient.
Unlike gelatin, Agar sets up much firmer which is why a lot of the time we use it to make jelly cake! Here, we like mixing Agar with Coconut milk, though I’m not sure whether that in itself affects the Agar but I think it just tastes good. We don’t blend Agar, because as you said the texture becomes gross.
An easy and popular recipe in Malaysia is Agar jelly, with some food coloring and pandan leaf (for an aromatic sweet flavor) added during the boiling. It’s way firmer than jello, but it is also (somewhat) very cooling as well! It’s a very unique texture that I have grown fond of.
All the best Adam.
I feel like if you used agar it would solidify into a fake vomit like texture when it cools lol
@@Gocunt actually its a great jelly provided you add sugar! Suitable for everybody since its vegan. Too much agar-agar powder ( or agar agar sheets) will make the jelly too firm and chewy though , so its important to follow the instructions on the packet. Agar - agar jelly is common dessert in all over south east asia & flavoured in so many ways. No Asian person in their right mind would use agar-agar in savoury dishes. Lol! - from Singapore.
How Do They Thicken Sauces In Australia?
They use kanga-roux.
BLOCKED
Groan
Badum tss
Careful, Adam will say this in the next video as absolute fact "The Brits use this shit they've never heard of and Aussies use kanga-roux" ;-)
fucking stupid
i never leave youtube comments but, as someone with celiac disease, THANK YOU! very few mainstream cooking channels take us into account, and it's always nice to see someone account for it- i use your recipes pretty often because so many of them are easily altered to be gluten free [or just are bh default], and this only makes me feel better about that! thanks again!!
As someone with Celiac disease I appreciate you showing us different ways to thicken gravy. Could you possibly figure out a gluten free New York style pizza?
@@modedealer8155 thats rude.
@@modedealer8155 Ah look who got here, another troll hiding behind his monitor. Pathetic
America's Test Kitchen had a really good recipe for gluten free pizza. It's some work, and requires par-baking the crust but it came out really good. Here's the link: www.americastestkitchen.com/recipes/7853-the-best-gluten-free-pizza
@@deathstrobe1778 what did he do
Very hard to do, wheat gluten is kinda hard to substitute in bread, I did some experiments with tapioca and other sources back in college, still not good enough.
Interested to try Xanthan Gum. I do the corn starch with wine slurry and it always comes out slimy.
That’s cause wine is a closer to a syrup so it’s a bit more difficult to break it apart and get the starch molecules in between the wine molecules, try cooking the wine for a bit and letting it cool before adding the starch or add some water to the wine, it’ll make the wine thinner
xanthan gum does wonders in cream based sauces, if you try making a clam chowder with it you will be very pleased. It's also wonderful if you are making an apple pie old fashioned style
old fashion style fruit pie being the kind where you don't cook the filling before it goes in the pie
Loved the chemistry explanation
Yeah, the puppets were absolutely excellent
ADAM CAN YOU MAKE A VIDEO ON ALUMINUM LEACHING AS IVE BEEN SEEING A LOT OF MISINFORMATION GOING AROUND AND A SOLID EVIDENCE BASED VIDEO WOULD BE GREAT
Sure, good idea! Just out of curiosity though, what kind of misinformation have been seeing? Like, are you doubting that it's really a thing? Because it's definitely a thing. Leave some aluminum foil on some tomatoes in your fridge for a couple days and it will visibly dissolve.
Adam Ragusea there's been a lot of scare articles going around basically saying that even cooking like once a week with aluminum foil will cause dementia via aluminum leaching, i noticed them going around awhile back but now basically every older person i know has been sporting the same stuff about dementia/alzheimer's caused by aluminum leaching in articles on their facebooks-- and i honestly am not super sure if it's credible or not considering i only found a few studies that didn't conclude anything. otherwise i feel an informational video about aluminum leaching in general would be great as it's something people do use frequently and might be scared of continuing to use based on a few scare tactic articles, that don't really go into detail about HOW it could be harmful and instead just give the worst case.
@@aragusea apparently aluminium moka pots are also harmful however I'm not sure if I believe it and another opinion would be great.
Aluminum is one of the most abundant metals on earth. Just because a bunch of people who had alzheimers or dementia also had some in their brains after death doesn't mean healthy people didn't also. I think I'd be more concerned with salt erosion on stainless than leeching of aluminum, but we can always season stainless, but then there's the toxic fumes from polymerizing oil.
@@neetirl Right now there is no consistent evidence for aluminum causing Alzheimers
had no idea xanthum gum dissolved in oil, I'll definitely remember that for the future
do you remember?
Assignment time, do u remember?
I swear my teacher watched this and planned a lesson around it. Miss Curtis I know you did
What did she do-
Did they attribute credits, tho?
Xanthan gum is one of my favorite thickening agents, and when I was on a very low carb diet, it did wonders for biscuit textures. It's an incredible ingredient that I wish got more attention in the everyday US kitchen! Same for arrowroot.
I’ve just purchased Xanthan gum, to make a gluten free cake. It will be interesting to see how it turns out. I haven’t really heard much about it.🤔
@@wendyhannan2454 it adds a nice chew, due to moisture retention. In cakes, I generally make sure I have a slightly higher starch ratio, on top of the usual flour combos and added xanthan gum. I wish you luck in your cooking adventures!
@@Trynsa Thank you 😉
When I started watching cooking videos on UA-cam I was surprised how many people used flour to thicken gravys, as I had never heard of doing that. My family has always used corn starch so when my Grandfather and Mother were teaching me how to cook (fun memories) I never saw/heard anything different.
Flour and butter (roux) is actually the classical and traditional way to thicken sauces in French cooking, and hence in American and English cooking. Maybe also Spanish cooking.
The biggest advantage flour thickener has over starch thickeners are the ability to control for browning and taste, as flour can brown but starches cannot. This allows for very complex or different flavours of sauces.
I love love love how much research and detail you managed to put into this video, without making it very long! The one thing I'm missing, though, is some kind of comparison chart at the end. Perhaps you could do a blog sometime where you go over some details from your videos?
A few more good thickeners you might want to check out going from most conventional to least.
1. Gelatin is a classic thickener for pan sauces and I add a packet to all my store bought stocks because they tend to have virtually no gelatin.
2. Wondra is a sort of perfected wheat flour (has gluten) that is processed to prevent clumping. Good for gravies since it can be added hot without making a slurry or cooking a roux first.
3. Pectin is the fruit-derived thickener in jams and also works very well for vegan demiglaces and sauces. It works very well in acidic environments, and there has to be some sugar present.
4. Gum Arabic - a hugely popular ingredient in pre-prohibition cocktails. It's commonly used to thicken raw sugar syrups (eg. demerara gum syrup). It massively improves the texture of stirred drinks like old fashioned.
5. Carrageenan - a great thickener for dairy applications. Can be used to improve the texture and stability of ice cream (Ben and Jerry's uses it) and whipped cream. This is a super old one; its use in China and Ireland began thousands of years ago. There are three types: Iota (opaque, soft gel like in panna cotta), Kappa (clear, brittle gel like jell-o), and Lambda (thickening dairy and adding creaminess to nut milks).
6. Guar Gum, Locust Bean Gum, Tara Gum - All popular ice cream additives, where they add elasticity, stability, body, and smoothness. Also work in sauces and synergize with each other and other hydrocolloid thickeners.
7. Kelcogel F (AKA Low-Acyl Gellan) is a super powerful thickener like agar that is best used to make fluid gels (also like agar, imo). You make a slurry, boil about 0.5% in by weight then set it into a firm block and blend it. Like Xanthan Gum, it is derived from a bacterial fermentation product.
8. There's also the various Ultra-Tex thickeners which are modified tapioca starches. I haven't used them myself, but I remember an episode on Chopped where a chef made something pretty offensive (panna cotta?) using one of them in too high a concentration. I think Scott Conant said it was "the worst thing [he's] ever put in his mouth". So I haven't been too excited to try it out, lol.
I found your channel and kept watching actually because you reminded me of Alton Brown in the original run of Good Eats. I enjoy hearing the science behind food, and cooking techniques. Good Eats was the original reason why I started cooking and I'm so glad I found your channel. You've taught me so many new tricks that I haven't even considered.
My job is cooking with and for kids in an after-school program. I always look for new ways to help increase inclusion for my kiddos with food allergies (such as gluten). As Im sure you know, that is not always easy. This video is great, Adam, like all of your content. Thanks for continuing to produce highly informative cooking content.
i was literally about to comment about how much you remind me of Alton Brown. he was my favorite as a kid. then you directly addressed him. thank adam
By far my favorite video you've done. You take your curiosity as a journalist into food for your viewers benefit. I've long used potato and rice starch as thickening agents with no thought to why or alternatives. Looking forward to more experiments with xantham gum or agar agar
This was one of the most informative, easy to understand, and comprehensive cooking videos I have ever seen. It answered all my questions on sauce thickeners. If he was not working in the kitchen, he would have made an excellent chemistry teacher. Thank you.
Excellent, all of it. Love his work. Here one will learn the most sensible, useful, ways to work with food. At 71 with 50 years of cooking behind me, I continue to learn from Mr. Ragusea.
"Let's get our Alton Brown on."
I was just thinking that on at least one of your previous videos.
Way to lean into it. 😏👍
"Or, it might just be the white part of the grain: the endosperm"
;)
Gus Cox no
Well, fun fact, "sperm" and "endosperm" sound similar because they are. Lots of plants reproduce sexually and therefore have sperm. Endosperm is created in the process of fertilization to feed the growing embryo in the seed.
Ughh...
Informative , but Ughh
@@aragusea nice talking to you, Mr Adam
@@aragusea Too much information
This is easily my favourite video you have done love the science behind it and how committed you are.
I have watched cooking/cooking tips videos on UA-cam uncountable times but this video is probably the Best informative video that I have ever watched. Thank you so much for all the experiments! Saved my time so much! Cannot thank you enough! Cheers!
Besan works great for gravy. Basically the same consistency as wheat flour gravy, but with some nuttiness from the chickpeas.
I just make a roux, like you normally would, and let it cook to a caramel color.
Besan is chick pea flour - very commonly used in India
Thank you for making this adam. This is my first thanksgiving gluten free and I’ve been kind of stressed about it, this helps.
WOW! Best video I've ever watched on gravy making! Thank you for doing all the messy work for me. 🙂 I loved all the scientific explanations. I'm going with the rice flour. Thank you so much! 🌟
I love this video. So much information. I have a celiac at home and 2 diabetics getting a suitable sauce or a salad dressing can be very challenging. Thank you very very much indeed
I really want to know where Adam gets all this information on Brits that he mentions in all his videos because I'm British and have never heard of or seen most of the stuff he talks about
BBC/ITV cooking shows.
@@aragusea ha ha BBC
BBC/ITV cooking shows from the '70s by the sounds of it.
@@regmemer9198 While I do love my vintage shows, I also watch the contemporary ones.
Sorry, *whilst.
As a Canadian, these videos are a few weeks too late, but it's handy for Christmas.
I've been a chef for 20years and use most of these products, its still nice to get a refresher on WHY and when. keep up the great content.
Thanks for all of that information. I've often wondered about the differences, but never taken the time to experiment with them.
That chemistry section really reminded me of Good Eats, nice job Adam!
*"please agar agar is my father, call me agar"*
About as funny as Kangaroux.
Whites
*please agar agar is my grandfather and agar was my father just call me gar*
Agar is quite polite
I am a huge fan of Xantham gun in soups, I frequently make roasted carrot and sweet potato soup and with no thickener it has a tendancy of spliting and leaving pools of water on the surface so I put in a small amount while I'm blitzing the soup smooth.
It also has the property of Thixotropic,meaning its thick while its still but it thins out when its moving, So in soups where solids like meat or veggies sink to the bottom you can put a super small amount of xanthan in the soup the solids will stay suspended in the soup without the soup it self having a thick mouthfeel
absolutely loved this one. Great work Adam!
Thank you for this. As a diabetic who must regulate and reduce my carb intake in order to stay alive this is great information. As you gain more experience with these alternatives to carb heavy thickeners please update your recipie repertoir for those of us in the same low carb boat. You could fill a real niche and be helping to save lives at the same time. Thanks again.
Please do more gluten free alternative videos! Super helpful!
I really like these experimental videos. Also, loving the pipecleaners demonstration!
Thanks, Dude! Excellent explanations and great editing... straight to the point. Much, appreciated.
Hey Adam- Person with Celiac here! Thanks for featuring an episode on GF options! I'm bringing my own, gluten free food to Thanksgiving and Christmas because my family really don't understand that yes, I will suffer if I have a smidgen of gravy made with wheat.
Me too,😉 it’s not worth the pain.
*The THICCENING is real my guy*
“””reputed”””
the thiccening! it's happening! aaaarrrrgghhh
Great tip about using the Xanthan gum in an oil slurry! Thanks.
I had a lecture about gelation this day and this video summed up so much stuff for me that I didn't get during the lecture. Thanks Adam.
this week adam learned:
the word “reputed” lol
Don't mock people. You will spen a lot of time in pugatory for that.
@@lynnkramer1211 don't push your bronze age belief systems on others.
This week my sister learned the word "fungible"
When I close my eyes you really do sound like Alton Brown... sweet.
This is the best channel on youtube right now! Great work, Adam. I love your videos and appreciate your effort.
Thanks for really great info. I have to give up grains but I would still like to have some gravy. Thanks for the help.
11:28 I didn't know I was watching a ContraPoints video...
I've definitely seen "gravy browning" in the UK even though it's not commonly used. It's usually Sarsons brand and on the shelf near the all the other stock/gravy items. I guess a lot of your British viewers just haven't noticed it before but it's certainly there.
This was really interesting, I've been wondering about all these variables for years, thanks for doing the research.
Loved this! I've had to change up my cooking since dating someone with Celiac, so I love seeing these kinds of alternatives. It'd be great to see more!
Adam: prepares us for thanksgiving
Canadians: *sad early thanksgiving noises*
*thankful early Thanksgiving noises, you mean.
The first time my mom tried to verbally walk me through making a roux, and somehow I turned it into flaky biscuits right in the pan! After that I went over in person to learn 😂
If you're gonna screw up a roux, that is the right way to do it.😁
This was amazing, thank you for this study. Love the scientific approach to cooking!
Excellent video exactly what I was looking for keep up the detail work
*I can’t believe I’m this early that I can’t forever scroll through the comments while watching this video*
"nice smooth mouth feel"
Thank You, MACON,
I was looking for a way to emulsify my hot sauces. The stir plate I purchased was not strong enough to cut through the liquid/mash ratio. I'm going with the xanthan gum. I am a subscriber for ever
This was a magnificent video. Harold McGee has long told us you can make a roux with any starch and any fat, but you are the first person to try it and talk about how they are in a sauce that I have come across. Good job.
Never seen gravy browning in my life and I live in gravy country
Same, I thought gravy browning was an American thing not the other way around... I just thought british gravy was darker because we dont put any milk (!!!) in ours.
@@ColinsBaldGrandma agreed!
Adam should have taught particle theory in class
Naruto
This is so practically explained.
Lovely...
Ran across this after watching a few of your other videos, and I appreciate the experimentation you put into it! As someone with celiac myself, I often use a mixture of starches to thicken sauces. Most of the time I just make a roux using a "cup for cup" replacement flour like the ones made by Bob's Red Mill and King Arthur Flour, but if not, I typically use a mixture of sweet rice flour and potato or corn starch and make a roux, sometimes also adding a _tiny_ bit of xanthan gum after the liquid. The biggest issue you'll usually run into if using rice flour without first making a roux is that it can be kind of grainy and taste a bit raw until it gets broken down, much like wheat flour.
I'm British and have never seen that gravy browning stuff in my life
i think that is jamaican.
@@TTminh-wh8me I think the Jamaican/Caribbean version is slightly different from the one we use in the US
Adam just learned the word “reputed” and wants us all to know how well he learned it.
Fuck off Brody
BADASSMANDO Fuck off BADASSMANDO
Really appreciate the in depth and conclusive nature of your videos, keep that up!
super useful dive into the kitchen laboratory! Thanks for documenting all these experiment I've been curious to try myself.
Daddy agar agar have you found the cigarettes yet? I want to see you again
Chemistry Classes with Adam Ragusea ...
Fantastic! Great job, exactly what I was looking for! Thank you very much!
Adam you are incredible! Thank you for your diligent use of the scientific method to educate us all! I really enjoyed this episode and I'm excited to make a gluten free gravy with this toasted rice flour I found in a Thai market. I am now a subscriber. Great job!!!
Just like to add. I'm a 24 year old brit and I cook everyday. Ive never used "gravy browner" or even heard of it. We do tend to use gravy granules which is essentially instant gravy.
Somebody didn't read the pinned comment
"Whether you're cooking for someone with Celiac's disease, or you're just......one of *those* people"
Hey, there's gluten conditions other than Celiac's, you know!
@@Not_an_alligator yes there are. stop being ignorant
@@Not_an_alligator Wheat allergy and gluten intolerance are both real. That some people avoid gluten as part of a fad diet doesn't change that.
@@loisavci3382 my gf is allergic to wheat, and isn't celiac herself. The pain is real
@@mjohnsimon1337 Yep. My wheat-allergic grandson had a serious asthma attack when he got his little hands on a piece of bread once. Not trivial. He ended up in the hospital once because some know-it-all gave him "regular" meatballs instead of his bread-crumb-free ones. That he didn't have celiac is so not the point.
That was one of the most interesting and helpful cooking videos I've seen. Thank you.
Love the science demonstrations and explanations!
Clicked faster than you could say "Sauce delivery system".
It always catches me off guard when he hits the perfect switch from the video to the sponsor.
Dude, what a awesome explanation to open with. You had me polymers. The science really makes sense and helps so much. You've just scored a subscriber.
Adam, this hits me where I live. Thank you!
Not that I don't already know which starches to use for glutenfree cooking, since it's been 4 years since my diagnosis, but still, I feel seen.
Nobody:
Adam: *How to make your sauces EXTRA thicc*
Justin Y. hi
Go away, no one wants your thoughtless comments
Actually I haven't seen you in a long time.
It seems like your comment isn’t at the top Justin Y.
@Jack K he doesnt spend nearly as much time as he used to on UA-cam. He said he spent at most 2 hours a day
I know that this is not the theme but goddamn your baby is cute playing hes car🚕🚕
This was magnificent, and very helpful. Thank you.
The literal comprehensive answer to my prayers, thank you ! Also adam what camera do you use ?
stop flexing on us with your children
And that is why i season my cotten balls instead of my gravy :D
Awesome video Adam! Such a great mix of practical advice and scientific background.
Really Really helpful!
My daughter is gluten-intolerant and I have been needing to thicken gravy without using flour.
The comparisons of the different types of starch are just what I needed. I have used arrowroot before but I didn’t like the texture. It was too light and clear. I’ll go for the rice flour roux.
Thank you!
I'm British - I don't know anyone who uses that browning stuff nor have I even seen it in any shop
As a UK northerner (we basically drink gravy) and I have never seen that gravy browning water u got there
This video is a cooking TREASURE!! Thanks for all the hard work!!
Hands down the best cooking channel if you want to go beyond simply being shown recipes. Excellent info - I‘m off to shop for some Xanthan & rice flour. Thanks!
My father thanks you, you should do some more Gluten Free alternatives or recipes especially for those of us who has family who can't consume anything w/ Gluten.
Why I thicken my pan, not my sauce
That cotton ball presentation plus pipe cleaners is genius!
This is so informative. Thank you!!
I almost burned the whole kitchen when I made my first roux at 9yrs